:00:09. > :00:15.Roll up that map, we shall not need it these ten years. The British
:00:15. > :00:18.Prime Minister is supposed to have said that when he heard about
:00:18. > :00:23.Napoleon's crushing victory in 1805. The map of Europe is now about to
:00:23. > :00:28.be redrawn in the wake of the euro crisis, but David Cameron didn't
:00:28. > :00:34.manage anything quite as res nant tonight.
:00:34. > :00:39.-- We sceptics have a valid point, we should look skeptically at grand
:00:39. > :00:43.plans and utopian visions. We have a right to ask what the European
:00:43. > :00:47.Union should and shouldn't do. should Britain try to do to the
:00:47. > :00:52.political organisation of which we are part. We will hear from among
:00:52. > :00:58.others, the man who was once one of Britain's European Commissioners.
:00:58. > :01:04.President Assad's troops continue their violence, as The King of
:01:04. > :01:07.Jordan says it is time for him to go. A glimpse into the thriving
:01:07. > :01:12.cottage industry of phone hacking on day one of the Leveson Inquiry
:01:12. > :01:17.into the media. Also tonight: have acted in way that violates my
:01:17. > :01:23.obligations to my family, that violates my, or any sense of right
:01:24. > :01:29.or wrong. We talk to the New York Attorney-General who tried to clean
:01:29. > :01:39.up broad street and got brought down by a sex scandal. How did a
:01:39. > :01:40.
:01:40. > :01:43.culture of greed take such firm root in American business. The
:01:43. > :01:49.stuffest challenge to Europe since the Second World War, was the way
:01:49. > :01:52.the German Chancellor put it today. We're no closer to the lasting
:01:52. > :01:55.solution to the euro cries s but everyone agrees if there is one, it
:01:55. > :02:00.will carry the stamp "made in Germany". Astor David Cameron, he
:02:00. > :02:04.claimed tonight to be a natural secretaryic, yet maintained that
:02:04. > :02:08.Britain had no -- sceptic, yet maintained that Britain had no
:02:08. > :02:12.choice but to remain in the EU. They support the two-tier Europe,
:02:12. > :02:21.with Britain some how in the outer teir. What should Britain be trying
:02:21. > :02:26.to achieve. Europe has been shaped by centuries
:02:26. > :02:31.of shifting alliances and conflicts. Not so great for conflicts, but
:02:31. > :02:37.great business for the couldn't tent's map makers. Every few years
:02:37. > :02:41.-- continent's map makers. This is 1870, pru,ia at the centre, hand
:02:41. > :02:48.reaching for the low countries. France, flinching, weapons raised
:02:48. > :02:53.and Britain an old hag, the caption reads "angry and isolated". You
:02:53. > :02:56.could probably construct just as humorous a map as the modern Europe.
:02:56. > :03:00.Maybe slightly less funny Silvio Berlusconi has gone, but funny,
:03:00. > :03:03.nonetheless. What hasn't changed is the serious point, the central
:03:03. > :03:08.position of German power at the heart of the continent, with a sort
:03:08. > :03:13.of spiral of reaction from the other countries around it. With
:03:13. > :03:20.Britain, or Britain on the side lines there, deciding how best, if
:03:20. > :03:24.at all, to get involved. Over 140 years have passed between that map
:03:24. > :03:31.and the Prime Minister's speech tonight at the Mansion House.
:03:31. > :03:35.Costumes of some, however, that are more 189th than 21st century. The -
:03:35. > :03:41.- 19th than 21st century. The Prime Minister talked about a Britain
:03:41. > :03:45.that won't leave the EU, but help shape it. And in words that will
:03:45. > :03:48.annoy some Liberal Democrat colleagues, he talked about we
:03:48. > :03:54.sceptics being right to question plans. Now is the question to ask
:03:54. > :03:59.what kind of Europe do we actually want? For me, the answer is clear,
:03:59. > :04:05.one that is outward looking, with its eyes to the world, not gazing
:04:05. > :04:09.inwards. One with the flexibility of a network, not the rigidity of a
:04:09. > :04:13.block, whose institutions help by connecting and strengthening its
:04:13. > :04:20.members to thrive in a vibrant world, rather than holding them
:04:20. > :04:24.back. Mr Cameron talked of a generational shift, one has post
:04:24. > :04:29.Cold War rather than post Second World War. But we were no nearer
:04:29. > :04:32.finding out where Britain will reorder Europe, and more
:04:32. > :04:36.specifically what the British blueprint looks like. Some think
:04:36. > :04:39.the Prime Minister needs to get on with mapping out his ideas. There
:04:39. > :04:43.is a real danger with David Cameron of being seen to stand on the side
:04:43. > :04:47.lines. There are 17EU countries inside the eurozone, but another
:04:47. > :04:49.ten who are outside it. Some of them are slated to join, I will be
:04:49. > :04:53.astonished if they actually do. There is a renegotiation coming,
:04:53. > :05:01.the map of Europe is about to be redrawn. And David Cameron should
:05:01. > :05:04.be in there, leading that and providing ground for renegotiation.
:05:04. > :05:09.How might the map look. The 27EU countries are forming into
:05:09. > :05:13.different groups. The 17 countries that use the euro in a core,
:05:13. > :05:17.leaving Britain among the ten peripheral countries, perhaps
:05:17. > :05:21.marginalised in their influence. But, it is argued, if the euro at
:05:21. > :05:26.some future date breaks up, other countries may join the periphery,
:05:26. > :05:30.Greece, Portugal, Italy, Spain or Ireland. Unfortunately it won't
:05:30. > :05:34.work that way. If you talk to countries like Poland, or Sweden,
:05:34. > :05:40.they don't want to be part of a group led by Britain. Many of the
:05:40. > :05:43.ten not currently in the euro want to join the euro. Like Poland. And
:05:43. > :05:47.are prepared to put up with the rules and regulations required, and
:05:47. > :05:50.want to be part of whatever organisations and clubs the Germans
:05:50. > :05:54.establish for the eurozone. Other countries like Sweden, which don't
:05:54. > :05:58.intend to join the euro any time soon, still don't want to be
:05:58. > :06:02.associated with the British. The British have rather a bad
:06:02. > :06:07.reputation as being against integration. David Cameron and
:06:07. > :06:15.Nicolas Sarkozy are, in front of the cameras, at least, all Bonn hom
:06:15. > :06:21.me. But behind the scenes there is -- bon homie, there is exasperation
:06:21. > :06:26.at us barking from the side lines. Could Britain change the grouping,
:06:26. > :06:30.threatening to veto to sort out the euro unless we got what we want at
:06:30. > :06:34.the same time. I was in Berlin talking to Mrs Merkel's adviser,
:06:34. > :06:38.they are clear that any British attempt to veto the new treaty
:06:38. > :06:43.would lead to Germany and its partners going ahead with something
:06:43. > :06:45.else, another treaty, which doesn't require a British signature,
:06:45. > :06:48.outside the framework of the European Union. If the Germans are
:06:48. > :06:53.wanting to play the game of saying they are not listening, I think we
:06:53. > :06:57.have to really assert ourselves. There is no way that the ten
:06:57. > :07:02.countries inside the European Union, who are not in the eurozone, should
:07:02. > :07:04.allow themselves to be tampered by the Germans and the French, simply
:07:04. > :07:07.because they have got themselves into a mess, form ago currency,
:07:07. > :07:12.which some of us warned wouldn't work.
:07:12. > :07:18.So it is not time to pencil in the new map just yet. Frustrating,
:07:18. > :07:21.perhaps, but how about this First World War handerchief map, where
:07:22. > :07:26.Germany's central position makes it rather vulnerable!
:07:26. > :07:30.Shortly before we came on air I spoke to Lord Mandelson, who monk
:07:30. > :07:36.his many accomplishment, being a former EU Trade Commissioner. I
:07:36. > :07:46.asked him where the euro had gone wrong? It has given Europe ten
:07:46. > :07:47.
:07:47. > :07:50.years of moderately strong growth, low inflation, the problem is the
:07:50. > :07:54.Governments where it has lacked a strong monetary authority, in the
:07:54. > :07:59.form of the European Central Bank. In my opinion and the opinion of
:07:59. > :08:05.others has been too legally and operationally constrained. Secondly,
:08:05. > :08:09.it has not had an effective fiscal governance. It has allowed its
:08:09. > :08:16.members to go different ways fistically, storing up problems
:08:16. > :08:20.which have -- fiscally storing up problems which have been way laid
:08:20. > :08:24.by the financial crash. It is clear the Germans think the only way for
:08:24. > :08:28.this thing to work is to have a much closer political and fiscal
:08:28. > :08:38.union within the eurozone? I think everyone is agreed, Germany and
:08:38. > :08:38.
:08:38. > :08:42.France and others agreed, that we need completely to recast the
:08:42. > :08:47.fiscal Governments. There needs to be a fiscally unified governance
:08:47. > :08:50.for the eurozone. Something we haven't had in the past. Where the
:08:50. > :08:53.disagreement exists, where I mentioned before, is the role of
:08:53. > :08:58.the monetary authority, the European Central Bank, Germany, in
:08:58. > :09:03.my view, is in the wrong place. I believe not only can Italy only be
:09:03. > :09:07.saved by the ECB making absolutely clear that it will be a lender of
:09:07. > :09:15.last resort, that we will, through the ECB, throw everything we have,
:09:16. > :09:19.if the market panic spreads to Italy, and I think also a bank that
:09:19. > :09:23.would stand behind other members of the eurozone that face similar
:09:23. > :09:26.problems in the future. If we don't do that, I don't think we will get
:09:26. > :09:33.over the crisis and if we don't do that we won't be able to repair the
:09:33. > :09:36.original design flaws in the eurozon. There are ten nations --
:09:36. > :09:40.Eurozone. There are ten nations not in the eurozone, why doesn't
:09:40. > :09:46.Britain aim to become the leader of that block? Because it has declined
:09:46. > :09:50.to do so. What Mrs Merkel has done recently, she has said to the Poles
:09:50. > :09:52.and the British, and said you are out of the euro, some of you want
:09:52. > :09:55.to come in, and some of you are waiting for the economic
:09:55. > :10:00.circumstances to do so. Others, if you like, Britain, say you don't
:10:00. > :10:05.ever want to come in. Her offer was a very, very important offer indeed.
:10:05. > :10:10.It was to say to the "outs", as we are and the Poles and the others,
:10:10. > :10:16.we will form a europlus group, supported by a europlus pack, and
:10:16. > :10:20.we will allow you to sit at the table, and take part and share in
:10:20. > :10:23.the decision-making, the key economic decision-making that
:10:24. > :10:27.relates to the eurozone. The British Government, for reasons I
:10:27. > :10:31.find it almost impossible to comprehend said, no thank you very
:10:31. > :10:36.much, we don't want to do that. are outside the eurozone, and
:10:36. > :10:41.outside the eurozone...Not Choosing to be outside the eurozone, but
:10:41. > :10:45.choosing to be outside it and not showing up at those councils and
:10:45. > :10:48.bodies where the decision making, and economic discussions of the
:10:48. > :10:52.eurozone are taking place. So we are doing two things, we are saying
:10:52. > :10:56.we are not coming into the eurozone, and secondly, we don't want to be
:10:56. > :10:59.part of any europlus pack, or group, because we don't want to have
:10:59. > :11:03.anything to do with your decision making either. You still think we
:11:03. > :11:07.should join the euro? If we are not members of the euro, and nobody is
:11:07. > :11:13.proposing we should be. You were proposing we should be? Indeed I
:11:13. > :11:16.was arguing for it. Only a couple of years you claim it had been a
:11:16. > :11:19.tremendous success? It is a very important point. It is an important
:11:19. > :11:24.point? We are here now not ten years ago. It was two years ago
:11:24. > :11:29.when you said the euro had been a tremendous success and we could not
:11:29. > :11:33.stay out of it indefinitely? I see no point in gloating at the fate of
:11:33. > :11:38.the euro, or with some sort of smugness and saying aren't we
:11:38. > :11:41.clever for not being in it. It is nothing to do with smugness or
:11:41. > :11:45.gloating, I'm merely pointing out to you that two years ago you said
:11:45. > :11:50.this was a great success and we couldn't stay out of it
:11:50. > :11:53.indefinitely, do you still think that? And if and when the
:11:53. > :11:56.circumstances were right, and Britain's advantage to go in, we
:11:56. > :12:00.should certainly consider doing so. Now? Not now, of course not now.
:12:00. > :12:07.Some time in the future, you still believe this now? In the meantime
:12:07. > :12:10.there are a whole set of questions for us, and dilemmas facing Britain,
:12:10. > :12:14.about our relationship to the European Union, as the eurozone
:12:14. > :12:17.becomes a tighter and more integrated block. We have to decide
:12:17. > :12:20.where we are going to stand and what we are going to do in those
:12:20. > :12:26.new circumstances, and how we are going to deal with the dilemma that
:12:26. > :12:31.presents to us. When you said Britain cannot afford to say no to
:12:31. > :12:37.the euro indefinitely, that it was in Britain's national interest to
:12:37. > :12:43.go into it, you still believe that? Jeremy, there is no proposition, by
:12:43. > :12:48.me or anyone else, that we should go into the euro. This was your
:12:48. > :12:54.proposition? In whatever year you are quoting. That was 2003, 2009,
:12:54. > :12:59.you said it was obviously the case Britain should join the single
:12:59. > :13:03.currency, you said it is perfectly clear that the euro had been
:13:03. > :13:06.success? We can play games and score points. I'm not playing games,
:13:07. > :13:10.I suggest your judgment is flawed because you thought it was such a
:13:10. > :13:13.brilliant scheme? In what way is my judgment flawed now when I say to
:13:13. > :13:18.you, if we do not maximise our influence within the European Union,
:13:18. > :13:22.we are going to become more and more detatched from it, less able
:13:22. > :13:26.to influence its direction, and less able to stand up to our
:13:26. > :13:30.interests. Why are you being so defeatist, isn't this fantastic
:13:30. > :13:34.opportunity for Britain to reshape Europe. Having seen the eurozone
:13:34. > :13:38.become a calamity? Absolutely there is a chance to exercise more
:13:38. > :13:42.influence, and I would say this to you too, had we been in the euro,
:13:42. > :13:52.had we been members of the eurozon. Magistrate mess we would be in
:13:52. > :13:57.then? We might have been able to avoid the mess that has resulted.
:13:57. > :14:00.Britain is very good in Europe in saying that proper rules,
:14:00. > :14:04.intelligently formulated should be well applied, and then enforced. We
:14:04. > :14:08.are very good in Europe. Let me make the point, we are very good in
:14:08. > :14:13.Europe at saying to our partners, look, this danger, that elephant
:14:13. > :14:17.trap is opening up. We have got to anticipate, we have to anticipate a
:14:17. > :14:22.whole series and set of different circumstances, and we have got to
:14:23. > :14:27.work together to avoid them. If we had been in the euro, we would be
:14:27. > :14:30.take orders from Berlin? We weren't in the eurozone, we didn't exercise
:14:30. > :14:34.that influence, it is now a very big challenge for Britain, both to
:14:34. > :14:38.help Europe repair what has gone wrong in the eurozone, but also to
:14:38. > :14:41.create a future, and a direction for the European Union, that is not
:14:41. > :14:46.just good for the whole of Europe, but good for Britain as well. And
:14:46. > :14:50.my fear, is that the way in which we are conducting ourselves now in
:14:50. > :14:54.relation to the European Union, we're not only standing outside the
:14:54. > :14:58.eurozone for reasons that are obvious to all of us, but we are in
:14:58. > :15:02.great danger of seeing those members of the eurozone, more
:15:02. > :15:06.tightly integrated, closely knit, taking their decisions in their
:15:06. > :15:10.interests, on economic matters, which are of fundamental importance
:15:10. > :15:13.to our economic future, with us being able to exercise hardly any
:15:13. > :15:19.influence or power or sway over that whatsoever. You tell me how
:15:19. > :15:25.that is in Britain's interests, it is certainly not. Lordson, thank
:15:25. > :15:31.you. With us now are -- Lord Mandelson, thank you. With us is
:15:31. > :15:35.the former minister Malcolm Rifkind and my guest from Paris.
:15:35. > :15:38.Isn't the inevitable consequence of what is happening in the eurocrisis,
:15:38. > :15:43.a marginalisation of countries like Britain? I think it has happened,
:15:43. > :15:47.you are right to mention it. There is a feeling that the German and
:15:47. > :15:55.the French have. First of all, there is a two-speed Europe, which
:15:55. > :16:04.has in way been created by the attitudes of the UK, which is not
:16:04. > :16:09.in the eurozone, not adopting the binding chartered and of rights,
:16:09. > :16:14.and neither some provisions of the treaty with regard to justice and
:16:14. > :16:20.that kind of thing. So I think that, in way, for the first time, there
:16:20. > :16:26.is a true dilemma, as you remember Churchill said, regarding Great
:16:26. > :16:34.Britain and the European construction, we are with it, we
:16:34. > :16:41.are not of it. That was true years ago, but nowadays, when it is felt
:16:41. > :16:45.that there is no solution of eurocrisis, apart from a strong not
:16:45. > :16:50.only economy governance of the eurozone, but also a political
:16:50. > :16:54.integration of this zone of solidarity, of necessary solidarity,
:16:54. > :17:00.between the 17 and perhaps more member states, for the first time
:17:00. > :17:05.in its history, since it has access to the EU, Great Britain has a real
:17:05. > :17:14.choice to be in or out. I think that this choice is right now, and
:17:14. > :17:18.not later on. Not such a bad thing to be marginalised? We are not
:17:18. > :17:23.marginalised, the main error madame has made, like many other people
:17:23. > :17:27.she talks about a two-speed Europe. That implies that all along we will
:17:27. > :17:30.end up at the same destination, some getting there a bit later than
:17:30. > :17:34.others. It is not a two-speed Europe. The debate happening in
:17:34. > :17:38.Europe is actually about what kind of European Union we actually
:17:38. > :17:41.aspire to. Whether it is a European Union where all countries have to
:17:41. > :17:46.accept the same level of integration at some date. Or
:17:46. > :17:50.whether we accept that Europe, not only now, but permanently, will
:17:50. > :17:54.have diverse kinds of membership, and some of us will never be in the
:17:54. > :17:59.European single currency, some of us will wish to go further, the
:17:59. > :18:06.French and the Germans were very good reasons may want more
:18:06. > :18:11.integration. May want to respect our right not to go in that
:18:11. > :18:15.direction. And we respect their right to go in that direction.
:18:15. > :18:20.is this so unappealing to other members of the European Union?
:18:20. > :18:27.is appealing to some and unappealing to others. Of the 27
:18:27. > :18:31.countries, 17 are in the eurozone, ten are not. Some are in there.
:18:31. > :18:35.Most of them are hoping to join it? They were, but I'm not sure now.
:18:35. > :18:39.That is not the point, each country has the right to make up its own
:18:39. > :18:43.mind. Europe because it is 27 countries, it will soon be over 30
:18:43. > :18:46.countries, cannot ever aspire to reaching the same destination and
:18:46. > :18:51.degree of integration. If it tries to do that it will implode, that is
:18:51. > :18:56.in no-one's interest. I wonder how much choice France, for example,
:18:56. > :19:01.really has. The plain fact is, it is Germany that is running Europe
:19:01. > :19:07.now. And the German position is understandably a great deal
:19:07. > :19:12.stronger than ever it was, and the orders for Paris are made in
:19:12. > :19:16.Berlin? Berlin has the leadership at the present time. I admit it. It
:19:16. > :19:25.is right, and it was the case with the constitution as well, as you
:19:25. > :19:30.remember. Germany is really now not only facing great issues, that is
:19:30. > :19:36.to say either to support the euro and make the eurozone survive, or
:19:36. > :19:40.to be an actor of the collapse of the eurozone and of Europe as well.
:19:40. > :19:46.I have no problem with Germany taking the lead in so far as we
:19:46. > :19:53.have choices to make, and we have to tell the truth to our people. I
:19:53. > :19:57.think that in the UK, for instance, you have to launch a referendum if
:19:58. > :20:04.Mrs Merkel pushes ahead to a change of the treaty. So the referendum is
:20:04. > :20:09.the truth. I say that the French, regreting very much the way of the
:20:09. > :20:12.French Government, addressing the issue of Europe, during the
:20:13. > :20:16.campaign for this referendum. I think it is absolutely necessary
:20:16. > :20:24.now that the people of Europe have their say, and that they are
:20:24. > :20:30.telling the truth. That is to say, you cannot belong to an NTT, as
:20:30. > :20:35.Europe, without transfering powers, and we have been so far that either
:20:35. > :20:39.there is the end of Europe, or we go further. This is the true choice
:20:39. > :20:43.of today. This is an opportunity, then, isn't it? It is an
:20:43. > :20:48.opportunity, if there is a desire to show some flexibility. I believe
:20:48. > :20:51.that countries like Britain should not veto France and Germany, and
:20:51. > :20:55.others, if they wish to go for greater integration, nor should
:20:55. > :20:59.they be able to prevent countries like the UK, saying that membership
:20:59. > :21:05.of the European Union doesn't require European formity. If there
:21:05. > :21:10.is an inner core of -- Union formity. If there is an inner core
:21:10. > :21:14.of countries, whichever way they will be drawn in the future, we
:21:14. > :21:23.will find ourselves excluded from crucial decisions? We have taken a
:21:23. > :21:27.conscious decision. We won't have much influence on eurozone issues,
:21:27. > :21:29.we are not maybe of the eurozone. We have done that to preserve our
:21:29. > :21:34.independence, to determine our own interest rates, to determine
:21:34. > :21:36.whether we have quanative easing in the UK and control of our own
:21:36. > :21:40.monetary policy. That is what independence is about. The sharing
:21:40. > :21:44.of sovereignity is crucial to the European Union, but the degree of
:21:44. > :21:48.sovereignity you are prepared to share should depend on your own
:21:48. > :21:51.national circumstances. For Britain, for Sweden, for Denmark, for a
:21:51. > :21:54.number of other countries, we have come to national conclusions that
:21:54. > :21:59.consistent with our membership of the European Union, we are not
:21:59. > :22:03.prepared to go for full integration, other countries wish to go further,
:22:03. > :22:06.Europe will flourish if each country respects that a la carte
:22:06. > :22:10.Europe, which is actually the only way Europe can survive in the long-
:22:10. > :22:13.term. Thank you very much both of you.
:22:13. > :22:22.King Abdullah of Jordan today said it was time for President Assad of
:22:22. > :22:28.Syria to stand down. For a dictator who believes he stands for Arab
:22:28. > :22:31.unity, he behaves in a strange way, his organisation has been suspended
:22:31. > :22:36.from the Arab League. But Assad shows no sign of willingness to
:22:36. > :22:41.quit the stage himself. There is increasing anxiety of what you
:22:41. > :22:45.might decided to do to hang on to power, not just killing his own
:22:45. > :22:49.citizens, but other citizens too. Syria's revolutionaries have had
:22:49. > :22:54.little to celebrate since the start of their uprising. But today, as
:22:54. > :22:59.more deaths were reported in fighting, they briefly cheered.
:22:59. > :23:05.Thanking other Arab states for supporting them by suspending their
:23:05. > :23:12.country from the Arab League. hope to, from this regime, to
:23:12. > :23:19.recognise that the time is up now. And the time is to step down and
:23:19. > :23:24.let the people decide. But the reaction from thousands of other
:23:24. > :23:28.Syrians, millions according to the authorities, who have been on pro-
:23:28. > :23:32.regime rallies, was one of fury. Some came of their own will, some
:23:32. > :23:39.were encouraged to attend, by an outraged Government. TRANSLATION:
:23:39. > :23:43.The Arab League decision is illegal, it has not been issued by a
:23:43. > :23:48.unanimous vote. It doesn't rely on the legality of the charter of the
:23:48. > :23:53.league. For a country that has always believed it was at the
:23:53. > :23:58.forefront of the struggle for Arab unity, the league's decision is a
:23:58. > :24:01.major humiliation. And today, in another affront, Syrian President
:24:01. > :24:05.Bashar al-Assad faced the first public call for him to step down
:24:05. > :24:10.from a fellow Arab leader. I would believe if I were in his shoes I
:24:10. > :24:13.would step down. For a long time, Syria's Arab neighbours did their
:24:13. > :24:17.best to turn a blind eye to what's been happening in the country.
:24:17. > :24:23.Reluctant to take on a state which such strategic weight in the Middle
:24:23. > :24:27.East. Now, they have taken the historic decision to come off the
:24:27. > :24:30.fence. Governments like Saudi Arabia's, which have long disliked
:24:30. > :24:35.President Assad, but which hate revolution, have now committed
:24:35. > :24:38.themselves, at least morally, to supporting revolutionaries. But the
:24:38. > :24:44.suspension of Syria from the Arab League, won't be enough in itself,
:24:44. > :24:48.to force Mr Assad from office unless it is backed up by practical
:24:48. > :24:53.action. His is a regime which still has powerful allies, both in the
:24:53. > :24:57.region, and around the world. Within Syria, President Assad has
:24:57. > :25:02.faced opposition in towns stretching in an arc around the
:25:02. > :25:06.country. Abroad, his enemies now include most members of the 22-
:25:06. > :25:10.strong Arab League. They also include Turkey, a one-time ally,
:25:10. > :25:15.that now hosts Syrian opposition groups, the European Union, once
:25:15. > :25:19.the main user of Syrian oil, which has now banned such imports, and
:25:19. > :25:24.the United States, which has also imposed sanctions. But Mr Assad can
:25:24. > :25:28.still count on the support of the two militant Islamist movements,
:25:28. > :25:34.Hezbollah in Lebanon and Hamas in the Palestinian territories, which
:25:34. > :25:38.has long sponsored. Its closest all lie, Iran, whose revolutionary
:25:38. > :25:43.guards are supposed to have advised Mr Assad on how to suppress
:25:43. > :25:48.protests, its neighbouring trader, Iraq, which abstained on the Arab
:25:48. > :25:53.League vote, and furd afield Russia and China, very -- further afield,
:25:53. > :25:56.Russia and China, very wary of aproving any criticism of Damascus.
:25:56. > :26:02.With fighting intensifing in recent days, what some opposition
:26:02. > :26:06.activists now hope for is an internationally imposed no-fly zone
:26:07. > :26:10.over Syria. That was ruled out at the weekend by Qatar, which
:26:10. > :26:13.currently chairs the Arab League. More economic sanctions are likely,
:26:13. > :26:22.they may not have much immediate effect. Syria is not surrounded, on
:26:22. > :26:27.one side it has Iraq, almost a continuation of the Syrian economy
:26:27. > :26:32.in a sense. On the other said, Iran, friendly to it, and on the other
:26:32. > :26:37.side, Lebanon. This time, for the first time in four years, Syria has
:26:37. > :26:45.had a wonderful bumper crop, after four years of drought and poor
:26:45. > :26:49.crops. Can a diplomatically cornered regime use its
:26:49. > :26:53.relationship with Iran and clients Hezbollah to cause trouble in the
:26:53. > :27:00.region, provoking conflict with Israel to deflect from the uprising
:27:00. > :27:04.at home. In the case of Hezbollah, the difficulty at Hezbollah, their
:27:04. > :27:09.main allegiance is with Iran. Hezbollah could be used by Iran,
:27:09. > :27:15.were Iran to be taked militarily, or even if Syria was to be taked
:27:15. > :27:23.militarily. If we are in just talking about economic pressure,
:27:23. > :27:28.Hezbollah will be feared and held back, that any action could unleash
:27:28. > :27:31.Israeli action against Hezbollah or Syria itself. Inside Syria the
:27:31. > :27:38.bloodshed continues. Today opposition footage appears to show
:27:38. > :27:42.troops again attacking the rebellious city of Homs. Many think
:27:42. > :27:46.civil war is approaching. It is for fear of spreading conflict that
:27:46. > :27:52.Arab and other powers have been so cautious towards Syria for so long.
:27:52. > :27:55.But the stakes in this powder-keg of a region, are slowly rising.
:27:55. > :27:59.With us now is the Syrian writer and journalist Rana Kabbani, we are
:27:59. > :28:03.joined from cashing done by the former assistant secretary at the
:28:03. > :28:08.US State Department, now at the council on foreign relations. Rana
:28:08. > :28:13.Kabbani, do you think Assad is on the brink now? I absolutely do. I
:28:13. > :28:21.think what has happened this week is the forming of a consensus,
:28:21. > :28:26.among the Arab states, among the immediate neighbours of Syria,
:28:26. > :28:31.including, very importantly, Turkey, and Europe and the United States.
:28:31. > :28:36.Before we kept hearing about giving him time, that he was a reformist,
:28:36. > :28:41.that there was still hope that this regime could be saved. But I'm
:28:41. > :28:47.believing very firmly that is now passed. Do you think he's on the
:28:47. > :28:54.edge too? I wish he were, and I wish that Rana Kabbani was right,
:28:54. > :28:57.and is right. But I'm not convinced. It is true, the regime is becoming
:28:57. > :29:00.internationally isolated, and isolated in his own back yard. But
:29:00. > :29:06.he still has many tools at his disposal, within his own country.
:29:06. > :29:10.He has the army, he still controls the major cities. The business
:29:10. > :29:15.elite is behind him. The sanctions imposed on Syria are hurting the
:29:15. > :29:18.country, but are they hurting the people in control? I'm not sure
:29:18. > :29:22.exactly yet how this international isolation translates into his
:29:22. > :29:27.departure. Are you worried about what he might do if he's cornered?
:29:27. > :29:32.I'm very worried about what he does. First of all, this is a man who has
:29:32. > :29:36.proven that he is prone to miscalculation, and to recklessness.
:29:36. > :29:40.He's done it in Lebanon, recall earlier this year, twice he has
:29:40. > :29:46.sent Palestinian refugees to the border with Israel, to meet their
:29:46. > :29:50.own death. He is someone who is not the calculator his father was. So
:29:50. > :29:54.the foings for him to miscalculate -- potential for him to
:29:54. > :29:58.miscalculate and be reckless is quite high. You mean the
:29:58. > :30:01.possibility of his encouraging Hezbollah to attack Israel, or
:30:01. > :30:05.something? That is one possibility. I don't think Hezbollah necessary
:30:05. > :30:13.takes its orders from him. But he has many tools at his disposal. As
:30:13. > :30:18.we have seen, he has killed over 3500 people of his own country. He
:30:18. > :30:22.doesn't show any sign of leaving. And indeed, the Arab League
:30:22. > :30:26.proposal really doesn't leave him much room. If he were to abide by
:30:26. > :30:31.the Arab League proposals, he would be signing his own political death
:30:31. > :30:35.warrant. I think he will fight it out. I listened to the Foreign
:30:35. > :30:45.Minister Muslim Brotherhood Muslim's speech this morning, from
:30:45. > :30:45.
:30:45. > :30:50.I listened to the Foreign Minister's speech, it was so
:30:50. > :30:55.delusional, it reminded me of the last few weeks of Saddam Hussein
:30:55. > :30:58.and Colonel Gaddafi's regime. It was the same kind of living in
:30:58. > :31:03.never-never land, and not acknowledging the depths of the
:31:03. > :31:06.crisis the isolation of the country, the unbelievable crimes that have
:31:06. > :31:12.been committed, that have been called by Human Rights Watch,
:31:12. > :31:15.crimes against humanity. And the fact that the whole Syrian
:31:15. > :31:20.population, including the Christians and business community,
:31:20. > :31:25.is now against him. No-one denies the depth of the opposition, no-one
:31:25. > :31:31.denies the distastefulness of the regime, the question is, how
:31:31. > :31:36.dangerous he is? I think he's a busted flush, quite frankly's
:31:36. > :31:41.dangerous, and has always been, as has been his father, to the Syrian
:31:41. > :31:45.people. What about the subsidiary point then, supposing that he does
:31:45. > :31:49.indeed go, supposing you're right, he really is on the brink of giving
:31:49. > :31:55.up, is there a danger then of a sectarian conflict in Syria?
:31:55. > :31:59.don't think so. Simply because the Syrians have watched the example of
:31:59. > :32:02.Iraq very carefully, and have always said they accept this
:32:02. > :32:07.totalitarian regime, because we don't want to end up in a state of
:32:07. > :32:13.occupation or civil war. They are very conscious of the fact that it
:32:13. > :32:17.is a country of many minorities, of many races, of many languages, and
:32:17. > :32:23.the future needs to be a democratic and pluralistic one. That is what
:32:23. > :32:29.we have waited for. Do you fear a sectarian conflict in Syria? Very
:32:29. > :32:33.much so. I think one of the driving forces here behind the Arab
:32:33. > :32:38.League's move to action, is their fear of sectarian conflict. I think
:32:38. > :32:41.they worry that Syria is on the brink. The Syrian opposition,
:32:41. > :32:49.however valiant and Northern Ireland its cause, still has not
:32:49. > :32:55.convinced -- nobble its cause, still has not convinced the
:32:55. > :33:01.officials in Syria they would be better after Assad lives. It is not
:33:01. > :33:04.the politicians and Christians like Assad they are worried about the
:33:04. > :33:10.incumbent after. It is the revolution's job to convince them
:33:10. > :33:18.there will be a better day after Assad. There is that sectarian rift
:33:18. > :33:22.that no-one wants but is emerging that is driving the Arab League to
:33:22. > :33:28.ratchet it up lest it implode. disagree with that, if Syria has
:33:28. > :33:33.been sectarian, it is the result of the Assad family's regin. They have
:33:33. > :33:37.made everything so that members of their own community have had the
:33:37. > :33:42.army in their grasp, and the business community. And that is why
:33:42. > :33:45.we have seen sectarian hatred rising, but once they go, I think
:33:45. > :33:49.that will abate. Thank you very much.
:33:50. > :33:52.Once upon time they talked to my next guest as a future President of
:33:52. > :33:56.the United States. Eliot Spitzer made his name as the so-called
:33:56. > :34:01.Sheriff of Wall Street, an Attorney-General who went after
:34:01. > :34:04.corrupt businessmen, and be they never so powerful. Tomorrow night a
:34:04. > :34:08.90-minute documentary in the Storyville slot on BBC Four tells
:34:08. > :34:14.his story, and how his crusade made him powerful enemies, so that when
:34:14. > :34:19.he fell, he fell like Lucifer. Caught using prostitutes.
:34:19. > :34:24.He was known as the Sheriff of Wall Street, Mr Right. But then it all
:34:24. > :34:28.went wrong. He knew that his entire political career was on the line,
:34:28. > :34:32.and ultimately vice took over virtue, he couldn't control himself.
:34:32. > :34:36.I remember one time he was trying to book an appointment. I just
:34:36. > :34:40.remember thinking to myself, I was like this man is so paranoid,'s
:34:40. > :34:45.just going to attract a situation. You know, because he was just
:34:45. > :34:52.asking for it. By the time he became governor of New York, Eliot
:34:52. > :34:57.Spitzer had a reputation. His eight years as New York attorney yen, had
:34:57. > :35:01.seen him sue coal fire plants for pollution, and he uncovered fraud
:35:01. > :35:08.in the pharmaceutical industry. And then he took on Wall Street.
:35:08. > :35:12.job had been a second teir position, focused on regulating crooked car
:35:12. > :35:15.dealers, Eliot Spitzer focused on Wall Street, the biggest guys
:35:15. > :35:20.around. Spitzer's premise, which was right, was that Wall Street
:35:20. > :35:24.can't be left to regulate itself, or terrible things will happen.
:35:24. > :35:29.went after market analysts who were tipping stocks in which privately
:35:29. > :35:34.they had no faith. Merrill Lynch became his target. My office has
:35:35. > :35:39.reached an agreement that will ensure the integrity of advice on
:35:39. > :35:46.which investors depend. He broke the mould and went on fast and hard,
:35:47. > :35:50.he got things done in weeks and months that took federal regulators
:35:50. > :35:53.years. He would get business on side to force the industry to
:35:53. > :35:59.change the way it did business, a lot of people thought that was
:35:59. > :36:09.outrageous. He also took on CIO's outlandish bay rates. The head of
:36:09. > :36:09.
:36:09. > :36:14.the New York Stock Exchange had an annual salary of dollar million --
:36:14. > :36:20.millions and millions of dollars. He sued them. I have been rich and
:36:20. > :36:26.poor, rich is better. Jew can't pay the head of a not-for-profit that
:36:26. > :36:29.much money, close to $00 million, it is simply too much, it is not --
:36:29. > :36:34.$200 million, it is simply too much, it is not right, it is against the
:36:34. > :36:38.law. This is going after elephants. In the end the elephants kept the
:36:38. > :36:44.cash. Spitzer had other targets, there was the head of the AIG
:36:45. > :36:49.insurance company, worth $157 billion, with 92 employees. Spitzer
:36:49. > :36:58.alleged the -- 92,000 employees. Spitzer alleged the books were
:36:58. > :37:02.being cooked. He said, I will destroy you. Those are strong words.
:37:02. > :37:05.I had never heard those words like that before. I couldn't quite
:37:05. > :37:10.believe it. But Eliot Spitzer was about to fall because of his
:37:10. > :37:15.personal dealings in an industry which was also booming. The FBI was
:37:15. > :37:19.investigating a prostitution ring, Spitzer was client nine. His escort,
:37:19. > :37:22.trading his Kirsten, was one Ashley Alexandra Dupre. Some breaking news
:37:22. > :37:26.this afternoon, the New York Times is reporting that governor Eliot
:37:26. > :37:31.Spitzer of New York has informed some of his senior administration
:37:31. > :37:38.officials that he had been involved in a prostitution ring. You say the
:37:38. > :37:43.work, but you haven't said the words. The work? Prostitution?
:37:43. > :37:48.Escort. Escort. What's the difference? Escort. In recent
:37:48. > :37:52.months, while Eliot Spitzer's reemerged to comment on the
:37:52. > :37:56.financial crisis, Ashley Dupre has been back in the limelight, to his
:37:56. > :38:00.supporters he may have been guilty of had you bris, they say he was
:38:00. > :38:07.also a prophet, facing down the financial villains who put the
:38:07. > :38:11.world in peril. You can see the Storyville documentary about Eliot
:38:11. > :38:21.Spitzer, Client 9: The Call Girl And The Governor, on BBC Four at
:38:21. > :38:41.
:38:41. > :38:44.10.00pm. Let's talk to Eliot Spitzer from New York. There is a
:38:44. > :38:48.profound change in the way capitalism works in the world, what
:38:48. > :38:54.do you think it is? There is anger and frustration over the fact that
:38:54. > :38:58.the 1% at the very top of society are doing extraordinarily well. I'm
:38:58. > :39:02.a capitalist, I believe people should do well and work hard to do
:39:02. > :39:05.well, but the system has to be fair. It can't be rigged. People came to
:39:06. > :39:09.realise there was so much self- dealing on Wall Street, people were
:39:09. > :39:12.paying themselves huge bonuses on salaries by picking the pockets of
:39:12. > :39:15.the middle-class and rigging the system. I believe in a fair market
:39:15. > :39:20.system that generates wealth, not an opportunity for the wealthiest
:39:20. > :39:24.to pick the pockets of the middle- class, and occupy Wall Street, to a
:39:24. > :39:28.certain extent, the Tea Party as well, the analog of occupy wall
:39:29. > :39:33.treat on the far right, are there because of the frustration of the
:39:34. > :39:38.middle-class, that some how those at the top are begin iting unfairly.
:39:38. > :39:42.Nobody worries they are benefiting, but when it is unfair. Is this a
:39:42. > :39:47.failure of regulation, or some how a more profound moral change that
:39:47. > :39:50.people just think differently about their relationship with society?
:39:51. > :39:54.in so many issues, in questions of that nature, the answer is both. I
:39:54. > :39:56.don't say both to in any way hesitate to make a choice, I think
:39:57. > :40:00.those who watched the introduction to this interview, and it was
:40:00. > :40:03.painful for me to listen to for obvious reasons, will understand I
:40:03. > :40:07.will go right at the problems I believe are there. Yes it was
:40:07. > :40:11.failure of regulation. I said over and over when I was tone general of
:40:11. > :40:18.the state of New York, I would not -- Attorney-General of the state of
:40:18. > :40:21.New York, I would trust the NCC to do house cleaning for me, they were
:40:21. > :40:24.weak in many levels. It was a moral failure on those who are running
:40:24. > :40:29.major companies, who viewed it as their own obligation to make as
:40:29. > :40:32.much money as they could. They too often overlooked their fundamental
:40:32. > :40:37.obligation to honesty and integrity in the market place. We are now at
:40:37. > :40:39.a moment when we have to rebuild the very premise on which we
:40:39. > :40:44.operate our financial services sector, in order to rebuild the
:40:44. > :40:48.jobs in the middle-class that are we heart of our domestic economy in
:40:48. > :40:53.the United States, likewise in England and the rest of Europe.
:40:53. > :40:57.anything changed as a consequence of the crash? I think there has
:40:57. > :41:01.been a serious questioning of much of what led up to it, I'm not sure
:41:01. > :41:06.we have yet learned the right lessons. I don't mean to be
:41:06. > :41:10.partisan, I would hope the history here would lead to a non-partisan
:41:10. > :41:14.resolution, but if you listen to the Republican party, once again,
:41:14. > :41:19.speaking as though the market unfeterd by any regulation will get
:41:19. > :41:23.us to the appropriate place -- unfettered by any regulation will
:41:23. > :41:27.get us to the appropriate place is not looking at history. I'm fan of
:41:27. > :41:31.the market, they require rules as a soccer and football game, wow the
:41:31. > :41:34.rules and enforcement of the rules -- without the rules and
:41:34. > :41:38.enforcement of the rules you have mayhem. Have you been disappointed
:41:38. > :41:43.by how President Obama has gone about his task? Well, look, I have
:41:43. > :41:48.been in an executive position and know how difficult it is to effect
:41:48. > :41:52.change. Having said that, I have been disappointed in what Timothy
:41:52. > :41:55.Geithner has done, in particular, he was in charge of the New York
:41:55. > :41:59.Fed, the entity that oversaw the markets, he created the structure
:41:59. > :42:03.that collapsed, he has not been a voice to reform, anywhere close to
:42:03. > :42:09.adequate to the task, in my opinion. I think there are other voices. I
:42:09. > :42:13.think that you can look to the Bank of England, Mervyn King and others
:42:13. > :42:16.in Europe, who have been much more articulate and forceful in
:42:16. > :42:22.pinpointing and highlighting the changes we need, the separation of
:42:22. > :42:25.commercial and investment banking, eliminating proprietyry trading.
:42:25. > :42:29.you regret because of what happened, you can't be part of this process?
:42:29. > :42:35.Of course. First of all, just so it is clear i regret what I did, I
:42:35. > :42:41.have said that over and over. I will say it again. Yes I regret, I
:42:41. > :42:47.apologise, at a different level, I miss being a part of the dialogue
:42:47. > :42:50.that is on going that is much necessary and needed the effort to
:42:50. > :42:53.change the structures that dominate financial services right now.
:42:53. > :42:59.Hopefully we will get where we need to get. Do you entertain any hopes
:42:59. > :43:07.of possibly coming back into public life? There are many different ways
:43:07. > :43:12.to par piss Tate in public life. I A -- par -- Participate in public
:43:12. > :43:18.life. I have a part in a CNN show to write. I'm deeply involved in
:43:18. > :43:25.the family business and I teach. Being involved in elective office
:43:25. > :43:28.is not the only one. I will pursue different opportunities in due
:43:28. > :43:32.course. The inquiry to try to find out what the tabloid newspapers
:43:32. > :43:38.have been up to got under way today, at the Royal Courts of Justice, it
:43:38. > :43:43.hopes to report within the year, with some recommendations, on as
:43:43. > :43:48.the chairman put it, who guards the guardians. On the opening day there
:43:48. > :43:52.were some disclosures at the now closed News of the World, was a lot
:43:52. > :43:58.more widespread than previously known. Richard Watson is here, he
:43:58. > :44:01.has cover the story from day one. What have we learned today? A lot,
:44:02. > :44:09.they designed it so they would receive significant information on
:44:09. > :44:13.day one. We heard from Robert Jay QC who said police information
:44:13. > :44:18.indicated phone hacking had been going on from 2002-200. The old
:44:18. > :44:22.story was one rogue reporter, Clive Goodman, and Glenn Mulcaire, the
:44:22. > :44:27.reporter and the private detective. In Glenn Mulcaire's notebooks there
:44:27. > :44:31.were references to no fewer than 27 other jouermists or employees of
:44:32. > :44:37.News International, casting the net very much more widely one of these
:44:37. > :44:42.journalists had apparently made 1, 453 requests for information to
:44:42. > :44:44.Glenn Mulcaire. Other newspapers were drawn in too? Interestingly
:44:44. > :44:50.the notebooks are proving a fertile sorgs of information for the
:44:50. > :44:55.inquiry and police. There -- source of information for the inquiry and
:44:55. > :44:59.the police. There are references to the Sun and Mirror on some of the
:44:59. > :45:06.notes, indicating the net will go wider than this. On Newsnight rewe
:45:06. > :45:10.veeld back in the summer that David Mills had claimed that an unnamed
:45:10. > :45:18.Mirror journalist had phoned her up quoting a voice message she had
:45:18. > :45:22.made to Paul McCartney, verbatim. Trinity Mirror denied it at the
:45:22. > :45:29.time, and said journalists operated within the law. New developments in
:45:29. > :45:35.the border story, May maes embarrassment. Brodie Clarkson, the
:45:35. > :45:38.man who resigned after -- Brodie Clarke, the man who resigned after
:45:38. > :45:42.the fiasco. He's due to give evidence tomorrow. The Labour Party
:45:42. > :45:45.have indicated they have e-mails from UK Border Agency staff which
:45:45. > :45:50.they say show there was widespread concern about this relaxation. They
:45:51. > :45:57.refer to one in particular, one from Durham Airport, apparently,
:45:57. > :46:02.where some individual was saying that passports weren't being
:46:02. > :46:06.checked, watch lists weren't being checked from private planes. That
:46:06. > :46:11.is other airports as well, so they say. Thank you, that's it for now.
:46:11. > :46:15.The great constitutionalist, Walter Bag it said the cure for admiring
:46:15. > :46:18.the House of Lords is to go and look at it. He never saw this. It
:46:18. > :46:21.happened the other day, as the former Defence Secretary, Lord King
:46:21. > :46:27.was talking about Poppy Day, and the fact that fewer and fewer
:46:27. > :46:32.living people remember the war. The figure sitting next to him is
:46:32. > :46:39.Baroness Trumping ton who worked in novel intelligence during the war.
:46:39. > :46:43.She's 8 and still knows her semiphore. There is a few survivors
:46:43. > :46:48.still there. I remember meeting Sir Harry Patch the last survivor of
:46:48. > :46:53.the lot. Gradually they faded away. Then the survivors of World War II
:46:53. > :46:59.started to look pretty old too, as my noble friend Baroness reminded
:46:59. > :47:09.me claiming to be one of the only survivor in this House of those who
:47:09. > :47:10.
:47:10. > :47:14.gave great service to their nation Pretty grey first thing on Tuesday
:47:14. > :47:17.morning. Another drab start to proceedings, but unlike Monday,
:47:18. > :47:21.hopefully it will get brighter during the day, across parts of the
:47:21. > :47:25.south and parts of Wales. On Monday North West England and Scotland
:47:25. > :47:28.should be favoured for a little bit of sunshine. To the east of the
:47:28. > :47:32.Pennines it will stay mostly overcast. A lot of cloud through
:47:32. > :47:35.the Midland, brightening up a touch through East Anglia and the
:47:36. > :47:42.southern counties of England wrecks should get a little bit of sunshine
:47:42. > :47:45.-- we should get a little bit of sunshine like Monday, west Wales
:47:45. > :47:49.will see sunshine. Elsewhere cloud year, but brighter than Monday. A
:47:49. > :47:53.lot of cloud covering Northern Ireland as well. But again, along
:47:53. > :47:57.the north coast it may well cheer up, temperatures could respond up
:47:57. > :48:00.to maybe 12 degrees. North West Scotland will be favoured for
:48:00. > :48:04.sunshine. Not so much fog around here, as there was during Monday.
:48:04. > :48:07.The eastern side of Scotland does stay rather grey. Wednesday, it
:48:07. > :48:11.should be brighter, again so a better chance of seeing sunshine.
:48:11. > :48:14.We could just see thickening cloud bringing rain into Northern Ireland
:48:14. > :48:19.later on Wednesday, that cloud could bring rain into parts of
:48:19. > :48:22.South Wales and maybe the far South-West of England. We will see
:48:22. > :48:27.the cloud increasing, across Devon and Cornwall, rain arriving here