:00:08. > :00:12.At the whiff of tear ga, the politicians supposedly ruling Egypt
:00:12. > :00:16.decided to quit their post, after three days of protests in Cairo,
:00:16. > :00:22.the cabinet there resigned en masse tonight. The army, now has full
:00:22. > :00:24.charge of the state. Our reporter has been in Cairo throughout the
:00:25. > :00:29.protests. The last teargas attack on this street was just a few
:00:29. > :00:33.minutes ago, and everyone is expecting more. The fate of the
:00:33. > :00:38.revolution these people now feel hangs in the balance. Popular
:00:38. > :00:42.dissent drove Mubarak from power, can it do the same with the current
:00:42. > :00:50.military regime. Once building house was a boast of Government.
:00:50. > :00:53.Built in 12 weeks for less than �1,000 each. These houses seem one
:00:53. > :00:57.answer to the housing problem. taxpayer backing for mortgages
:00:57. > :01:02.bring a new housing boom. We will ask the Housing Minister if he's
:01:02. > :01:09.the palest shadow of Harold Macmillan, and ask the boss of the
:01:09. > :01:13.CBI if it will help. Cometh the hour, cometh the mystery
:01:13. > :01:21.writer, we talk to Umberto Eco about history and Europe. Does he
:01:21. > :01:31.fancy a new role in the new Italian technocy. If I was invited by Mr
:01:31. > :01:36.
:01:36. > :01:40.Monti, probably, yes. A few hours ago the cabinet in
:01:40. > :01:45.Egypt said they were resigning, their bosses in the army have
:01:45. > :01:49.tkwrot say if they will accept that resignation. The Arab Spring has
:01:49. > :01:55.lurched from apparent freedom to bloody crackdown. Mortuary
:01:55. > :01:59.officials talk of 33 people killed since Saturday and 1800 wounded.
:01:59. > :02:05.Our reporter has spent the last several days in Tahrir Square in
:02:05. > :02:09.Cairo. What is going on? As you say, Tahrir Square now full of tense of
:02:09. > :02:11.thousands of people. More have been -- tens of thousands of people.
:02:12. > :02:15.More have been arriving this evening. We have heard the
:02:15. > :02:19.announcement that the Government has tendered its resignation. We
:02:19. > :02:24.don't know if Egypt's rule of the Supreme Council of the armed fores
:02:24. > :02:28.are accepting that or not. The real dilemma now for the Armed Forces is
:02:28. > :02:32.what alternative cabinet will they possibly find. The anger on the
:02:32. > :02:35.streets is so intense that I think few other people, technocrats,
:02:35. > :02:38.politicians or civilians will be prepared to take on that job,
:02:38. > :02:42.unless they are given considerably more power. Because the current
:02:42. > :02:47.cabinet, the resigning cabinet really has been a puppet of the
:02:47. > :02:51.Armed Forces, that is why it has been so discredited. So, on the one
:02:51. > :02:55.hand, the army doesn't want to give civilians more power, it is afraid
:02:55. > :03:00.that will damage its interests. On the other hand, it desperately
:03:00. > :03:06.needs civilians as a figleaf, otherwise anything bad that happens
:03:06. > :03:12.is blamed on the army itself. there a Government tonight? Well,
:03:12. > :03:16.we just don't know. And the army has itself in this terrible dilemma,
:03:16. > :03:21.because it isth has allowed or ordered the violence, and it is --
:03:21. > :03:27.because it has allowed or ordered the violence. It is the latest in
:03:27. > :03:32.the whole ineptitude that the supreme commander of the Armed
:03:33. > :03:37.Forces has shown since the beginning of things, that Egypt has
:03:37. > :03:41.lurched from crisis to crisis. At the beginning of the month, most of
:03:41. > :03:47.the political forces were principally concentrating on
:03:47. > :03:51.campaigning for the parliamentary elections, which are still due next
:03:51. > :03:57.week. Then suddenly the whole political agenda has been thrown
:03:57. > :04:02.off kilter by the announcement, that didn't come now, by the army
:04:02. > :04:07.that it was seeking super- constitutional privilege that is
:04:07. > :04:11.would put it above the oversight of civilians. That has put us to the
:04:11. > :04:17.position where Tahrir Square is full of angry people, angry at all
:04:17. > :04:24.the latest bloodshed. How have we got to this point? Well, it really
:04:24. > :04:33.is just a whole series, I think, of mistakes of this kind, some
:04:33. > :04:36.political forces were very keen to see the elections going ahead,
:04:36. > :04:41.particularly the Muslim brotherhood, because they think they are going
:04:42. > :04:51.to win. But the whole question has been sub sumeed by how long this
:04:52. > :04:57.
:04:57. > :05:00.transition will last. Presidential elections might not come until 2013,
:05:00. > :05:04.and people aren't satisfied, as the death rate increases, people's
:05:04. > :05:14.demands are going up, people are now worried simply that the army
:05:14. > :05:16.
:05:16. > :05:21.intends never to leave the stage. We have been here before, for the
:05:21. > :05:25.last three days teargas has billowed over Tahrir Square, rocks
:05:25. > :05:31.and petrol bombs from protestors. It is the same fury, in the same
:05:31. > :05:34.place, as during Egypt's revolution ten months ago. The revolution that
:05:34. > :05:37.overthrew a dictator, and was supposed to hand power to the
:05:38. > :05:44.people. Ten months on, the people don't control Egypt. Now they even
:05:44. > :05:50.had to battle again to control this one sqare.
:05:50. > :05:54.The last teargas attack on this sthreet was a few minutes ago, --
:05:54. > :05:57.this street, was a few minutes ago, and more is expected. The fate of
:05:57. > :06:00.the people hangs in the balance. If they were worried about the
:06:00. > :06:04.attentions of the authorities, they are even more worried now. The
:06:04. > :06:08.violence shown by the security forces proves these people believe
:06:08. > :06:18.the determination of Egypt's military rulers to hang on to power.
:06:18. > :06:18.
:06:18. > :06:22.Exactly what the protestors came back into the sqare to contest.
:06:22. > :06:26.TRANSLATION: The Interior Ministry is striking at the people. Are we
:06:26. > :06:34.not the people of Egypt, are they different to us. Are we not one
:06:34. > :06:36.people. We don't understand what is happening. TRANSLATION: We want to
:06:36. > :06:42.thank the military council for protected the revolution, now it
:06:42. > :06:46.needs to hand over to a civilian transitional council, to protect
:06:46. > :06:50.the Egyptian people. But tending the wounded has had to take
:06:50. > :06:54.precedence over politics this weekend. It has been chaos in the
:06:54. > :06:57.makeshift hospital behind the sqare. It is an appalling atmosphere in
:06:57. > :07:06.which to be planning, in just one week's time, the first round of
:07:06. > :07:10.what are meant to be Egypt's freeist elections in years. The
:07:10. > :07:17.elections with a bewildering array of candidates that should start the
:07:17. > :07:21.transition to democratic country. On Friday, Tahrir Square filled to
:07:21. > :07:25.its very edges with demonstrators angry at constitutional amendments
:07:25. > :07:30.proposed by the army, that could allow it to override the decisions
:07:30. > :07:36.of an elected civilian Government. Marshall Tantawi, the head of the
:07:36. > :07:44.army, who has effectively ruled Egypt since Hosni Mubarak was Joan
:07:44. > :07:49.thrown is the man they want out, now -- overthrown, is the man they
:07:49. > :07:55.want out now. TRANSLATION: The army don't want to hand over their power
:07:55. > :08:00.now, it is going on and on. wasn't meant to be like this, ten
:08:00. > :08:03.months on, still shouting against a system they thought they had
:08:03. > :08:10.overthrown. Tahrir Square became an icon of unity and hope, all around
:08:10. > :08:16.the world. But its power has proved to be elusive. Predominating at the
:08:16. > :08:19.rally, men with baerdz. Islamists aren't the only force -- beards,
:08:19. > :08:23.Islamists aren't the only force that want the army gone, but they
:08:23. > :08:29.have the most to lose if democracy is restricted, they know they will
:08:29. > :08:33.do best in the elections. In this poor district of southern Cairo,
:08:33. > :08:40.the Muslim Brothers have been campaigning hard. Although they are
:08:40. > :08:46.well known for their social work, they have a massive lead on those
:08:46. > :08:51.who tweeted and blogged the revolution into action. These are
:08:51. > :08:57.the candidates of the new revolutionary parties can't dream
:08:57. > :09:00.of this, the kind of relationships that come not from the revolution,
:09:00. > :09:06.but years of working in local communities. It appeared earlier
:09:06. > :09:10.this year that the Brotherhood and the army might form a tactical
:09:10. > :09:17.alliance against the liberals. No more, Islamists and liberals are
:09:17. > :09:21.united in wanting the old regime dismantled, root and branch, that
:09:21. > :09:26.means excluding civilian servants of the dictatorship, former members
:09:26. > :09:33.of the President's deposed party. We speak about the people who
:09:33. > :09:41.corrupted the political life of Egypt for 30 years. Some call them
:09:41. > :09:50.the tailors of laws. They tailor the law to fit with the
:09:50. > :09:55.requirements of the regime. Those people are well known. Those people
:09:55. > :10:00.should be displaced away from our way to democracy. They should be
:10:00. > :10:04.removed. They should be removed. And here they are. Those remnants
:10:04. > :10:08.of the old regime. Portrayed as weeping skulls. They are trying to
:10:08. > :10:14.avoid being caught, in this internet game, devised by another
:10:14. > :10:19.candidate in the election, the independent liberal, Ahmed Naguib.
:10:19. > :10:23.We are reaching out to young people, we know how to get them intrigued
:10:23. > :10:28.and deliver a concept through our very simple game. We really need to
:10:29. > :10:34.be on our guard and our watch for those Mubarak cronies and thugs all
:10:34. > :10:41.the time. Those are the ones who want to bring the nation down. For
:10:41. > :10:45.this dream not to be delivered. This evening, thousands more have
:10:45. > :10:50.congregated on Tahrir Square. After the army appeared to make a
:10:50. > :10:55.concession on those remnants of the dictatorship. It issued a decree to
:10:55. > :10:58.bar those who worked to corrupt political life from further
:10:58. > :11:03.political activity. But that wasn't the ban on former ruler party
:11:03. > :11:07.members standing in the elections that most protestors here want. The
:11:07. > :11:11.revolutionary, Ahmed Naguib, taking a break from the sit-in, Downing
:11:11. > :11:14.Street, after the latest violence, that the army is committed to
:11:14. > :11:18.democracy of any kind. This is happening because the military
:11:18. > :11:20.wants to hang on to power. If there is a democratically elected
:11:20. > :11:26.parliament it will represent the people, while the military council
:11:26. > :11:30.is not elected by anyone, and has absolutely no legitimacy, when
:11:30. > :11:34.there is a democratically elected Government. The army has told the
:11:34. > :11:38.nation the parliamentary elections will take place as planned. But at
:11:38. > :11:42.least 22 have died in violence since Saturday. Some way more. And
:11:42. > :11:47.as in January and February, people's demands are rising with
:11:47. > :11:51.the death toll. Many now say the military should relinquish power
:11:51. > :11:55.immediately. On Tahrir Square, they have learned this year, that any
:11:55. > :12:05.concession must be wrested from an obs nant state by massive popular
:12:05. > :12:06.
:12:06. > :12:12.pressure. That is why so many are staying on the sqare tonight. We
:12:12. > :12:22.are ajoined from Cairo by the humam rights activist, who has come from
:12:22. > :12:24.
:12:24. > :12:28.Tahrir Square. What is happening in the sqare this evening. What's
:12:28. > :12:33.happening this evening? Husbands of thousands are on Tahrir Square now.
:12:33. > :12:37.It is only natural that after three days -- hundreds of thousands are
:12:37. > :12:40.on Tahrir Square now. It is only natural after three days of killing
:12:40. > :12:47.and maiming young Egyptians that Egyptians take to the streets again.
:12:47. > :12:56.What do you want to happen next? Frankly speaking, I can't think
:12:56. > :13:00.ahead, because over the past three days I have spent most of my time
:13:00. > :13:06.in morgues, hospitals and ambulances. I have seen so many
:13:06. > :13:12.casualties, so many violations. I am there to monitor the situation,
:13:12. > :13:17.but I'm also involved in all the bloodshed. I was at the field
:13:17. > :13:22.hospital, a makeshift hospital on the sqare last night at around
:13:22. > :13:28.5.00pm, actually, when the army stormed the sqare, and stormed the
:13:28. > :13:34.hospital. Army troops came into the hospital harassed the female
:13:34. > :13:39.doctors, sexually harassed the female doctors, and then started
:13:39. > :13:42.very violent confrontations with the doctors there, trying to take
:13:42. > :13:46.out the injured. The doctors stood up and told them you can't take the
:13:47. > :13:53.injured. There is no way we're going to allow you to do that. As
:13:53. > :13:58.they storm out they throw in teargas cannisters. This started as
:13:58. > :14:03.a confrontation between the police and the people, and the army comes
:14:03. > :14:06.to the rescue of the police, that is in serious need of much reform.
:14:06. > :14:10.Since January we have been saying that for the past nine months. The
:14:10. > :14:15.police force has to be reformed. But the army intervenes to support
:14:15. > :14:20.the police, that has been killing people, and they kill more people.
:14:20. > :14:25.In my direct circle, amongst my friends, three young men lost their
:14:25. > :14:30.eyesight. A dentist, an IT specialist, and a journalist. They
:14:30. > :14:36.were shot in the face. Rubber bullets are not for shooting young
:14:36. > :14:40.people in their faces. These are outrageous crimes. This is what I'm
:14:40. > :14:48.concerned about. What happens next? I honestly hope...I Will come to
:14:48. > :14:53.you in skaebgd on that question -- a second on that question. As the
:14:53. > :14:56.world watches this, we can't get involved can we? We have to be very
:14:56. > :15:01.careful. There is a role for signalling to the military very
:15:02. > :15:11.clearly that the UK, the US, others, are absolutely dead set on seeing
:15:12. > :15:12.
:15:12. > :15:15.the full transition to democracy. But we have to leave it to those in
:15:15. > :15:19.Tahrir Square to take the lead on it. There is such a sense of
:15:19. > :15:21.conspiracy and nationalism, very understandably in recent months in
:15:21. > :15:25.Egypt, I don't think anyone wants outsiders telling Egyptian what is
:15:26. > :15:31.to do at this point. Do you think elections can take place under
:15:32. > :15:36.these circumstances? I doubt they will take place. I mean the
:15:36. > :15:42.violence that has erupted over the past three days would prevent
:15:42. > :15:49.elections from happening. The activists on the sqare, the young
:15:49. > :15:58.revolutionaries on the sqare, the people who started the whole
:15:58. > :16:04.process back in January aren't interested in elections right now.
:16:04. > :16:07.A police force in need of reform, a stepping down of Armed Forces and
:16:07. > :16:13.handing over the Government to a civilian Government. This is what
:16:13. > :16:20.the people want. This is not about elections. I mean, how could we
:16:20. > :16:23.possibly have elections during such violence. There is violence in at
:16:23. > :16:27.least five different Governments of Egypt. If the elections were to be
:16:27. > :16:31.postponed, they have already been extended in a most extraordinary
:16:31. > :16:36.fashion, but if the elections don't take place, where does that leave
:16:36. > :16:40.everybody? I think you have got to get back to a legitimate situation
:16:40. > :16:43.where people accept that elections, or whatever the vehicle for
:16:43. > :16:49.carrying the thing forward is legitimate and representative. We
:16:49. > :16:53.have seen it happen in Tunisia, it is possible to do this, it has
:16:53. > :16:56.having well carried out elections, producing a majority Government
:16:56. > :17:01.with popular support. It really is the fact that power continued to
:17:01. > :17:05.rest in the hands of a military who are commercially very self-
:17:05. > :17:11.interested in Egypt, have had a long-time status that they were
:17:11. > :17:15.reluctant to give up. That all has to be challenged. Sadly, things
:17:15. > :17:18.ended in Tahrir Square, the first time round, before that had
:17:18. > :17:26.happened. Do you think you were niave in believing that the
:17:26. > :17:34.military would give up power? were niave when we cheered the
:17:34. > :17:39.military when they came to Tahrir Square back in January and February.
:17:39. > :17:43.Now it is not about beg niave. It is about the people and what they -
:17:43. > :17:46.- about being niave, it is about the people and what they want and
:17:46. > :17:53.what they have accepted, after recent events. This is not the
:17:53. > :17:57.first such attack from the military on civilians. Last month they were
:17:57. > :18:05.responsible for massacre. Yesterday, for the second time, they are
:18:05. > :18:11.killing civilians. Most political forces in Egypt will not accept a
:18:11. > :18:15.continuation of military rule. There has to be a handover.
:18:15. > :18:21.Sooner or collateral. The longer it drags on the more violent it will
:18:21. > :18:25.become, that is my personal opinion. It is quite possible that the
:18:25. > :18:31.victors at the end of this will be the Muslim Brotherhood, the
:18:31. > :18:37.Islamists in general. Is that an outcome that? We have seen in
:18:37. > :18:43.Tunisia, the Muslim Brotherhood do very well. But a Muslim Brotherhood
:18:43. > :18:47.committed to democracy, committed to a genuine pluralistic Tunisia
:18:47. > :18:52.going forward. I think the longer it goes, the more radical the
:18:52. > :18:57.outcome. There is no doubt about that. I think it is critically
:18:57. > :19:01.important that everybody outside Egypt, who wishes Egypt well, is
:19:01. > :19:08.very clear that the democratic will of the country must be respected.
:19:08. > :19:13.That's the outcome we must arrive at. Thank you both very much indeed.
:19:13. > :19:23.Need the money to buy a house? Come to the bank of Dave and Nick,
:19:23. > :19:25.
:19:25. > :19:29.otherwise known as the ticks pair. Under plans announced -- known as
:19:29. > :19:31.the taxpayer. Under plans announced today spending on house building
:19:31. > :19:37.will stimulate the economy generally. A week tomorrow the
:19:37. > :19:45.Chancellor will tell us how bad things really are in that seasonal
:19:45. > :19:48.lament, the autumn statement! It used to be that the bricks
:19:48. > :19:54.virtually flew up, houses sold before the roof was on, happenyo
:19:54. > :19:58.days for the builders and happy -- happy days for the builders and the
:19:58. > :20:02.first time buyers able to live the dream on nothing down. Oh how times
:20:02. > :20:07.have changed. It is back to 20s for the level of peacetime house
:20:07. > :20:11.building, back to the 1970s for the first time buyers. And one of the
:20:11. > :20:14.few areas experiencing a housing boom is the local authority waiting
:20:14. > :20:20.list. You can always spot a politician on a building site, they
:20:20. > :20:23.are the ones who want to do without the high-vis jacket and the hard
:20:23. > :20:28.hat. The policy they want to be high-visibility, and insist it
:20:28. > :20:33.couldn't be more hard headed. The only visible policy difference on
:20:33. > :20:38.view today between the coalition partners was whether to tuck or not
:20:38. > :20:44.to tuck. There are so many people in overcrowded homes and on housing
:20:44. > :20:47.waiting lists, we want to get Britain building. Why housing
:20:47. > :20:52.building has been so low is because of the credit crunch, the banks
:20:52. > :20:55.don't want to lend and the builders can't build and the housing market
:20:55. > :20:58.is stuck, and we are determined to unstick the market to get the
:20:58. > :21:02.market moving. What we are doing today is a whole set of things to
:21:02. > :21:07.kick start the housing market. we got today was a lot of neatly
:21:07. > :21:11.named funds, for a start there is �400 million for the Get Britain
:21:11. > :21:15.Building, that is designed to get finance to builders to finish off
:21:15. > :21:19.stalled projects. There is �30 million for the custom homes
:21:19. > :21:23.problem, that is to help self- builders get finance. There is �500
:21:23. > :21:28.million for the Growing Places Fund, to improve infrastructure like
:21:28. > :21:32.roads to unlock the development of particular areas. Then there is the
:21:32. > :21:36.accelerator release of public sector land, �100 million to bring
:21:36. > :21:39.back empty prorpbts into use. And most controversially, a mortgage
:21:39. > :21:43.indemnity scheme. What this means is the Government will underwrite
:21:43. > :21:48.first time buyer mortgages for new build properties. Meaning the
:21:48. > :21:51.buyers won't need to come up with anything like as big a deposit. As
:21:51. > :21:55.you can imagine the house builders rather like the plan. Not least
:21:55. > :21:58.since it was their idea. If the lenders won't lend. Meaning the
:21:58. > :22:01.buyers can't afford to pay the prices, there is a solution in
:22:01. > :22:06.market. It may not be one you or your members particularly relish,
:22:06. > :22:11.it is that the price of those properties has to come down?
:22:11. > :22:17.don't think that will solve the problem, it is the deposit gap.
:22:17. > :22:23.Let's take extreme example, let's sae say the average house price is
:22:23. > :22:29.�200,000 and there is a 25% deposit, the vast majority of people can't
:22:29. > :22:33.afford �50,000, they can't afford �25,000 even if the price halves.
:22:33. > :22:37.All the element of the initiative provides support for house builders
:22:37. > :22:40.rar than buyers. The market at the moment looks -- rather than buyers.
:22:41. > :22:45.The market looks like it will faurblgs you have zero interest
:22:45. > :22:49.rates, at some point they will go up, the earnings to house price
:22:49. > :22:54.ratio is out of whack. This is not a good time for a first time buyer
:22:54. > :22:57.to step into the market. That time will come. The best thing a first
:22:57. > :23:02.time buyer can do at the moment is not to be a first time buyer but to
:23:02. > :23:06.be a renter and wait. If you were mildly cynical you might say it has
:23:06. > :23:10.nothing to do with the first time buyer and everything to do with the
:23:10. > :23:16.cashflow problems for builders. Government involvement in the
:23:16. > :23:19.housing market doesn't have the best record, the US Government
:23:19. > :23:22.sponsored funds Frannie Mae and Freddie Mac went bust, US tax-
:23:22. > :23:27.payers still don't know how big the bill there will be. In this country,
:23:27. > :23:30.even the governor of the Bank of England, has previously warned
:23:30. > :23:34.against Government underwriting mortgage loans. Why should the tags
:23:34. > :23:40.pair take on the risk of borrowing from individual borrowers, some of
:23:40. > :23:45.who are risky, it is the lenders who should take the risk, and
:23:45. > :23:49.assess the risk on lending. We saw in 2007 not enough attention was
:23:49. > :23:53.paid to monitor the risk of the lending. We don't want to tell
:23:53. > :23:57.lenders that it doesn't matter if they monitor the riskiness, the
:23:57. > :24:00.Government will guarantee it. problem we have now has to be
:24:00. > :24:04.addressed. There are deep-seated difficulty, of that there is no
:24:04. > :24:09.doubt. But the Government's mismanagement of the economy, and
:24:09. > :24:14.housing policies, have made the situation far, far worse. The
:24:14. > :24:18.Government inherited from Labour, a growing economy, and on housing,
:24:18. > :24:25.there were two million homes built under Labour, half a million of
:24:25. > :24:31.them were affordable. Having dewe willied, the PM and his
:24:31. > :24:35.deputy med -- met some happy buyers. It is hoped these measures would
:24:35. > :24:38.get the housing market moving and stimulate much-needed growth. There
:24:38. > :24:42.is so much uncertainty around what sort of housing market or what sort
:24:42. > :24:52.of economy we will have when the next generation is looking to put
:24:52. > :24:52.
:24:53. > :24:55.down roots. That is anybody's guess. Do you recognise this, high levels
:24:55. > :24:59.of public and private debt are proving a drag on growth,
:24:59. > :25:03.undermining the case for adding to the national burden of debt with
:25:03. > :25:06.even more borrowing. You know who that was, of course, that was the
:25:07. > :25:10.Prime Minister today, your leader. Why do you propose to increase the
:25:10. > :25:16.burden of debt? No-one is saying people shouldn't take on mortgages
:25:16. > :25:20.to get a home. You and I presumably have one. It is thought we have far
:25:20. > :25:24.too much private debt as well as public debt? You and I presumably
:25:24. > :25:28.have had mortgages, I still have one. We have the ability to get on
:25:28. > :25:32.to the housing ladder, this current generation is completely locked out
:25:32. > :25:35.of the housing market. You are in favour of increasing private debt?
:25:35. > :25:38.Nobody is saying nobody should not take on mortgage, the Prime
:25:38. > :25:42.Minister was not saying that, clearly. Do you think house prices
:25:42. > :25:45.are too high? I think house price stability is the key. Do I think it
:25:45. > :25:48.is too expensive, definitely. would like housing to become
:25:49. > :25:53.cheaper? I think the house price stability would make housing more
:25:53. > :25:56.affordable, it should be. If you go back only 10-15 years, houses would
:25:56. > :26:00.have been three times the salary, now they are seven or eight times
:26:00. > :26:04.the salary, that is a problem. do think the house of pricing is
:26:04. > :26:09.too high? I have been clear is not you need for it to do is to
:26:09. > :26:13.collapse back to three times in quick order, what you need is, you
:26:13. > :26:16.need to have a stable housing market, which could still go up in
:26:16. > :26:19.price with inflation, but not as much as average earnings over a
:26:19. > :26:24.long period of time. That would be rational housing market, where
:26:24. > :26:27.people can afford to get on the housing ladder. If house prices
:26:27. > :26:32.drop to the point where they are more affordable and bear a better
:26:32. > :26:36.relationship to income, as used to be. People will find themselves
:26:36. > :26:39.overextended, won't they? I don't think the two things are
:26:39. > :26:44.incompatible. The fact that people in this generation have been unable
:26:44. > :26:48.to get in the housing market. The figure of 37 years old is often
:26:48. > :26:53.quoted. 37 years old being the age which? You can get a home, if you
:26:53. > :26:56.don't have the support of the bank of mum and dad. As the Housing
:26:56. > :27:01.Minister and as a Government, we have spoonsability to today's
:27:01. > :27:04.generation, whilst laifg a long- term and -- responsibility to
:27:04. > :27:07.today's generation whilst having a long-term plan. You have a
:27:07. > :27:10.responsibility to get people into debt? Any mortgage is getting
:27:10. > :27:14.people into debt. You want to help them? I think it is perfectly
:27:14. > :27:18.reasonable if somebody is a good bet for a mortgage for them to be
:27:18. > :27:22.able to access that mortgage at a reasonable rate. Particularly given
:27:22. > :27:26.we have record low rates. You don't agree with Mervyn King do you?
:27:26. > :27:29.said that in 2008, right at the beginning of all of this. You know
:27:29. > :27:33.he has changed his mind since then? I don't think he would have thought
:27:33. > :27:38.that in 2011 we would be living in a world with very little growth.
:27:38. > :27:41.Not just here but worldwide, and actually, you know, nothing much
:27:41. > :27:45.happening in the housing market. I don't think it is right to walk
:27:45. > :27:48.away, I don't think it is right to ignore the potential for economic
:27:48. > :27:54.growth that building more homes brings. You think he has changed
:27:54. > :27:57.his mind? I think times have moved on. He said unambiguously it is no
:27:57. > :28:01.business of Government to get involved in this sort of lending?
:28:01. > :28:04.Let me put it to to you another way. If the Government were only
:28:04. > :28:08.proposing this measure in the housing strategy today, and we were
:28:08. > :28:13.going to have indemties for mortgages, I think there are
:28:13. > :28:17.another 136 measures, many dealing with the supply side, building more
:28:17. > :28:21.homes. If you can build more homes, as well as providing the confidence
:28:21. > :28:25.to get mortgages that people can afford. You put yourself in a
:28:25. > :28:29.better position, which by the way, create jobs and provide a better
:28:29. > :28:32.economy. The target was 120,000 homes last year, what do you want
:28:32. > :28:35.to go to? Any reasonable estimate says we need to be building
:28:36. > :28:45.probably twice as many homes in this country, north to satisfy the
:28:46. > :28:47.
:28:47. > :28:52.demand out there. You think you will be able to get it up to the
:28:52. > :28:55.200,000 there? As outlined there, there is an awful lot in there. For
:28:55. > :28:59.the first time ever we marry together the principle that it
:28:59. > :29:03.can't just be about building more homes, the builders aren't building,
:29:03. > :29:06.lenders aren't lending and buyers can't buy because there is a bigger
:29:06. > :29:10.problem than just inability to put houses up right now. You have
:29:10. > :29:16.decided to go for plan B? No, this is plan for growth. Which is what
:29:16. > :29:19.we have always said we wanted to do. It is a good run up to the autumn
:29:19. > :29:23.spending statement. You always wanted to spend public money?
:29:23. > :29:26.are parts to spend public money, not outside the spending envelope
:29:26. > :29:29.we have set out and we know about for the parliament. This is all
:29:29. > :29:33.within that spending. There is another element here, that is to
:29:33. > :29:37.provide confidence to the market place. This is this mortgage
:29:37. > :29:40.indemnity scheme, it is not about spending vast sums of money, it is
:29:40. > :29:44.about guarnteeing, because Government can, as a backstop for
:29:44. > :29:47.mortgages. One final point, do you think you might have done more to
:29:47. > :29:50.address the perceived housing shortage, had you not cut the
:29:50. > :29:54.budget for social housing in the way you have? Just to be clear, we
:29:54. > :30:04.are going to end up building more affordable house anything this next
:30:04. > :30:07.four years. Social housing? Social and affording -- affordable houses,
:30:07. > :30:13.subsidised rental housing, we will build more of that. A lot less than
:30:13. > :30:17.you were planning to under the old plans? No, we have introduced
:30:17. > :30:20.affordable rent, we are building more homes by subs sizing it
:30:20. > :30:25.through a different way -- subsidising it in a different way.
:30:25. > :30:28.We will build a lot more affordable housing, I think it is a good thing.
:30:28. > :30:31.I think the whole principle of a housing strategy is to make sure we
:30:31. > :30:35.are doing everything possible, not just one thing, not just affordable
:30:35. > :30:39.homes, but homes for people at every level of society.
:30:39. > :30:42.With us now is John Cridland, director-general of the CBI, the
:30:43. > :30:47.former Labour Treasury minister, Kitty Ussher is also here, and the
:30:47. > :30:52.editor of City AM Allister Heath. Do you think it is a good idea,
:30:52. > :30:56.Allister Heath? No I don't. There is a very good reason why banks
:30:56. > :30:59.aren't lending up to 125% as they did at the height of the madness,
:30:59. > :31:02.they know they can't do that. If you do that run into trouble. There
:31:02. > :31:06.is two things happening here. The economy is grinding to a halt. A
:31:06. > :31:10.lot of people are starting to lose their jobs. That means some people
:31:10. > :31:13.won't beable to afford their -- won't be able to afford their
:31:13. > :31:17.mortgages. House prices are falling f homes are repossessed, banks
:31:17. > :31:20.could lose money, that is why they are not lending. It is an
:31:20. > :31:24.irresponsible use of public money? It is a dangerous use of public
:31:24. > :31:28.money. I agree house building needs to be boosted, not enough homes are
:31:28. > :31:32.built in the UK. I don't think the Government and the taxpayer should
:31:32. > :31:35.underpin mortgages. Public money for private enterprise, good news
:31:35. > :31:39.for you? I'm not looking for public money. I'm looking for Government
:31:39. > :31:42.to use its power in the market to ginger up that market, and make it
:31:42. > :31:48.more effective. The difference here is the judgment as to whether we're
:31:48. > :31:53.in the 2008 position, where King was rightly concerned about wide
:31:53. > :31:57.scale default, or whether we are at an actual all time low in house
:31:57. > :32:01.building and buying, where there are people out there able to buy
:32:01. > :32:06.houses but we need to get the house market moving. This is targeting
:32:06. > :32:10.intervention, one the CBI has been calling for, I don't think it will
:32:10. > :32:13.cost the Government much money. think that King has changed his
:32:13. > :32:17.mind? I'm not saying that, but the CBI is clear that the priority is
:32:17. > :32:21.growth. If we are going to get growth we have to be bold with some
:32:21. > :32:24.policies. It is not plan B, it is plan A with a plus on the end,
:32:24. > :32:28.which says let's get the housing market moving, without spending
:32:28. > :32:33.money that the Government dose doesn't have. Kitty Ussher, this is
:32:33. > :32:36.the sort of thing you believe in, this sort of initiative? I don't
:32:36. > :32:40.believe it is a good idea to encourage people in the early
:32:40. > :32:44.stages of their career to take on huge amount of debt. Spending
:32:44. > :32:48.public money, it is good for you? It is going to boost aggregate
:32:48. > :32:53.demand, but there are far more effective, and dare I say it,
:32:53. > :32:58.intelligent ways of doing it. Just on the Mervyn King point, if he did
:32:59. > :33:03.agree with the Government, he's now shortly going to be in charge of
:33:03. > :33:06.the Financial Policy Committee that regulates the financial centre of
:33:06. > :33:12.London, so he will certainly be able to allow the banks to do it
:33:12. > :33:16.themselves it's not. One must presume he doesn't agree with this.
:33:16. > :33:21.We need �200 billion of investment to green our infrastructure. The
:33:21. > :33:24.Government through regulation. do what? Green our infrastructure.
:33:24. > :33:28.What's that? Green energy suppliers, this is the Government's own
:33:28. > :33:32.figures. And they can use regulatory policy that doesn't cost
:33:32. > :33:36.them anything to get the private sector to invest in that. That
:33:36. > :33:42.would boost the economy far more than �400 million here. When you
:33:42. > :33:46.look at this, and the talk of credit easing, this is making money
:33:46. > :33:49.available n this case to business, which we will presumably hear more
:33:49. > :33:54.about next week in the statement. There is a change going on, isn't
:33:54. > :33:57.there? There is a change, but I don't think it is an abandonment of
:33:57. > :34:00.a deficit reduction strategy, the CBI wouldn't support that, and I
:34:00. > :34:03.don't think it is the Government spending money it hasn't got. I
:34:03. > :34:06.think whether it is energy, whether it is roads, whether it is rail,
:34:06. > :34:10.whether it is housing, whether it is digital broadband, Government
:34:10. > :34:14.can do things that will get the private sector to invest that
:34:14. > :34:17.doesn't mean Governments abandon its strategy. There is lots of
:34:17. > :34:21.money on private sector balance sheets. House builders are amongst
:34:21. > :34:24.them, that can be put to the public good, if the planning permissions
:34:24. > :34:27.are there, and the market regulation is there. If Government
:34:27. > :34:30.does what it has done in this case with the indemnity scheme, bringing
:34:30. > :34:34.people together looking for a new commercial solution and using the
:34:34. > :34:38.role of Government to find that solution. That must be the right
:34:38. > :34:42.thing to do. What I see instead, I see the Government starting to
:34:42. > :34:46.provide credit and intervening more and more and more, I see the
:34:46. > :34:52.Government continuing to privatise gains by socialised losses. If you
:34:52. > :34:56.buy a house and your house price goes up you make money, if you it
:34:56. > :35:00.goes down and the Government picks up the bill, people who can't
:35:00. > :35:03.afford their houses pick up the bill. I don't like I'm seeing, I
:35:03. > :35:12.thought it was about market reform and getting people out of this
:35:12. > :35:22.stuff. I see neo-Brownite policy, constant interference, meddling.
:35:22. > :35:22.
:35:22. > :35:26.think that will sound very odd. woke him up to join in? I didn't
:35:26. > :35:33.know I wasn't supposed to join in. Your office said you wouldn't?
:35:33. > :35:36.had no idea I wasn't supposed to be. Why do we need 106 policies and
:35:36. > :35:39.meddling, why not just liberalise it. It sounds like the sort of
:35:39. > :35:43.thing a at this tank, an intelligent person like you might
:35:43. > :35:47.come out with. Let's talk about the people who are 30, 35, 40, older
:35:47. > :35:51.and would like a foot on the housing ladder. I don't think it is
:35:51. > :35:54.right just to turn around and abandon those people. Government
:35:54. > :35:57.doesn't have to be a bystander, Government is actually backing a
:35:57. > :36:00.scheme which the industry themselves have come up with here.
:36:00. > :36:06.This is not our scheme it is their skeerpblgswae can put our weight
:36:06. > :36:10.behind it. By the way, -- scheme, we can put our weight behind it. By
:36:10. > :36:16.the way it is good lending or bad lending, it doesn't change the
:36:16. > :36:20.decisions the lenders have to make. What your policy is doing, it is
:36:20. > :36:24.saying to someone who can get an 80% mortgage that they can get a
:36:24. > :36:29.95% mortgage. It seems an 80% mortgage is more sensible than a
:36:30. > :36:33.95%. If the house price falls down a bit, the taxpayer picks up the
:36:33. > :36:37.bill. If the argument is we don't want to go back to the bad old days
:36:37. > :36:40.of 125% mortgages, I entirely agree. Nobody thinks this is about to
:36:40. > :36:46.happen in the next couple of years. We will review the scheme after two
:36:46. > :36:51.years to see how it is going. The world has moved on a great deal.
:36:51. > :36:54.But house prices are falling, a lot of people think house prices could
:36:55. > :36:59.fall 15-20%, if they do that your scheme will have to kick in, and
:36:59. > :37:02.the taxpayer will have to pick up the bill. It is dangerous time to
:37:02. > :37:07.start on that. This is not just about first time buyers, we are
:37:07. > :37:11.keen to help them, anyone buying a new home or a flat would qualify.
:37:11. > :37:14.Anyone buying a new build. This is new build. That is another issue
:37:14. > :37:19.with the policy, suddenly the demand for existing houses could
:37:19. > :37:23.collapse. You are distorting the market and saying people have to
:37:23. > :37:27.buy that? We know house building is a very important part of domestic
:37:27. > :37:32.gross product, we know it ememploys people, two people for every single
:37:32. > :37:37.house that is built. We know that the Government can have an active
:37:37. > :37:43.role in saising, we're not prepared to standby -- in assisting, we are
:37:43. > :37:46.not prepared to standby, we want to sais. We think 100,000 people can
:37:47. > :37:51.benefit from it. People watching who aren't in the fortunate
:37:51. > :37:56.position of those around the table of having a home, is thinking,
:37:56. > :38:00.rather than saving �40,000 deposit, I can save �10,000. As long as I'm
:38:00. > :38:03.a secure bet for the lender I can get on the housing ladder. They are
:38:03. > :38:10.great intentions, we have learned that great intentions in housing
:38:10. > :38:14.policy don't work. If it is �10,000, why not cover the whole thing.
:38:14. > :38:18.Cridland you would probably like to tell the minister how wonderful he
:38:18. > :38:20.is I would say a thousand business leaders met at the CBI conference
:38:20. > :38:24.today. When the Prime Minister announced it, there was strong
:38:24. > :38:27.support in the hall. If we're serious about growth, and these are
:38:27. > :38:30.extraordinary times, and over the winter, because of the eurozone
:38:30. > :38:33.crisis growth will get close to stalling in this country. If we're
:38:33. > :38:38.serious about growth it has to be the absolute priority. We know if
:38:38. > :38:42.we get the construction industry moving, lots of people will start
:38:42. > :38:47.spending. It is not irresponsible spending. This is not plan B, it is
:38:47. > :38:49.not spending any more money than the Government intended to spend
:38:49. > :38:53.before. These are imaginative solutions that get way from the
:38:53. > :38:56.idea that there is no hope for the public, or that the only way to do
:38:56. > :38:59.it is to spend money we don't have. It has taken the year-and-a-half
:38:59. > :39:02.for the Government to wake up to the need? We have been in
:39:02. > :39:08.discussions with the Government on all these various forms of
:39:08. > :39:12.infrastructure for the last six months for novel ways to get growth
:39:12. > :39:15.going. Earlier in the year, growth was going to be higher before the
:39:15. > :39:20.eurozone crisis kicked in, the Government didn't need to do as
:39:20. > :39:23.much as it does to keep the economy going, none of this is about
:39:23. > :39:30.reducing the deficit more slowly, none of this is about printing
:39:30. > :39:33.money. It is about Anne tell gent use of the public -- an intelligent
:39:33. > :39:37.use of the public sector money and the private sector in tandem. It
:39:37. > :39:44.has the support of British business. It is free money and underwriting
:39:44. > :39:47.the risk of business, of course it has rating. It is a step to take
:39:47. > :39:53.hold of the deficit. You stalled growth in this country by a
:39:53. > :39:57.collapse in consumer confidence, and you are telling people they
:39:57. > :40:01.should go. We have half per cent interest rates. Now the great
:40:01. > :40:04.European project, the dream of statesmen across the continent is
:40:04. > :40:09.as safe tonight as last week, and endangered as it was last week,
:40:09. > :40:13.after Spain yesterday chose a new Government. It thus became the
:40:13. > :40:18.fifth member of the euro to dump a leader to save its status. In the
:40:18. > :40:28.troubled times when politics and economics seem to collide, it is
:40:28. > :40:32.
:40:32. > :40:39.time to reach for a European, 79- year-old author, Umberto Eco, his
:40:39. > :40:45.novel the Roses, it sold millions of copies around the world, and --
:40:45. > :40:50.The Name of the Rose, sold millions maid into a film. He has strong
:40:50. > :41:00.views about his country's place in Europe. He was an outspoken critic
:41:00. > :41:02.
:41:02. > :41:06.of Silvio Berlusconi's Government. His new book, the Prague Cemetery,
:41:06. > :41:16.describes a world of plots, fear and paranoia and the rise of anti-
:41:16. > :41:16.
:41:17. > :41:23.semitism. Eco, you're the well spring of this book -- Umberto Eco,
:41:23. > :41:28.the wellspring of this book is anti-semitism, bigotry and forgery.
:41:28. > :41:38.That climate of suspicion in Europe, do you think it is as great now as
:41:38. > :41:40.
:41:40. > :41:50.it was? If you are thinking of universal plot paranoia, they are
:41:50. > :41:51.
:41:51. > :41:55.two different aspects, I would say that racism has lost the violent
:41:55. > :42:00.forms it had before the Second World War. When you look at Europe
:42:00. > :42:03.itself, it is only going in one direction, isn't it, what is the
:42:03. > :42:08.ultimate destination of the European project, do you think?
:42:08. > :42:13.believe strongly that there is a European identity. Maybe, when you
:42:13. > :42:21.are in Italy or I'm here, we're don't feel it so strongly, but we
:42:21. > :42:29.both are in New York, immediately with this thing we have something
:42:29. > :42:36.in common with respect to Americans. Now the problem with it is linked
:42:36. > :42:41.not to or ideolgical reasons but economical reasons. I'm not sure
:42:41. > :42:45.how much the euro can survive. I'm not confident. Do you see at the
:42:46. > :42:49.end of this process of European co- existence and then co-operation,
:42:49. > :42:58.and then development of economic European and so on, do you see a
:42:58. > :43:04.single state at the end of it? Because I think that the nation
:43:04. > :43:12.states, England, France, were a product of the Middle Ages, more or
:43:12. > :43:22.less. Today they are less important than before, because it is more
:43:22. > :43:25.important the ju, milag e -- jumilag e between a city in the
:43:25. > :43:35.north with Spain with the common interest and connection. I see
:43:35. > :43:40.rather a sort of archepelg io of situations, not a unique state.
:43:40. > :43:43.you think the single currency, the euro, which we are now told can
:43:43. > :43:48.only survive if there is fiscal June, monetary policy European
:43:48. > :43:53.between the member gates. Do you think that was a mistake? -- member
:43:53. > :43:57.states. Do you think that was a mistake? This is a precise
:43:57. > :44:00.economical question. It is not just economical? For me it is not a
:44:00. > :44:04.mistake. I feel very comfortable, it doesn't mean anything in this
:44:04. > :44:08.one. You say it is an economical question, it is a political
:44:08. > :44:13.question? It is an economical and political economy. I'm not in the
:44:13. > :44:16.position of saying if that was really a mistake, or if it has a
:44:16. > :44:21.future. What's very interesting for those of us in this country, of
:44:21. > :44:25.course, is that your country, now has a Government, the cabinet of
:44:25. > :44:34.which, includes not one democratically elected figure. That
:44:34. > :44:38.has made necessary because of the euro. It has political consequences.
:44:38. > :44:47.We find it in this country unimaginable where we have a
:44:47. > :44:52.Government that is not elected? Kissing er elected by the people, a
:44:52. > :44:58.lot of Governments were not elected by the people. It is presidential
:44:58. > :45:01.appointments, it is a different system of Government. We are in
:45:01. > :45:05.exceptional circumstances. I'm glad you don't have Silvio Berlusconi in
:45:05. > :45:11.your country, if not you would be obliged to find the same solution!
:45:11. > :45:17.How could your country put up with Berlusconi? How could Italy put up
:45:17. > :45:25.with Berlusconi, how could you tolerate Berlusconi? Berlusconi was
:45:25. > :45:30.a genius in communication. Even his blunders were calculated to reach
:45:30. > :45:35.his tart, his targets were middleaged people, ladies and
:45:35. > :45:40.gentlemen, who watched television. And they are enough to make up a
:45:40. > :45:45.majority. Why does Italy put up with this succession of Governments
:45:45. > :45:50.of varying degrees of competence, or embarrassment? Italians don't
:45:50. > :45:53.have a strong sense of the state. That is absolutely true. Would you
:45:53. > :45:58.join a Government of technocrats if you were invited? That is not my
:45:58. > :46:03.job. I'm saying if you were invited would you join it? If I were an
:46:03. > :46:08.expert and I were invited by Mr Monti, probably yes, in order to
:46:08. > :46:14.serve my country in a democratic way. Since I have the guarantee of
:46:14. > :46:17.the President of the Republic. Akiko keek thank you.
:46:17. > :46:24.That is quite -- Umberto Eco, thank you.
:46:24. > :46:31.That is quite enough for us, you might think so. Before we go, the
:46:31. > :46:38.death was announced today of Sheila Delaney who, before 20, had written
:46:38. > :46:44.the gritty drama A Taste of Honey. You are just feeling a bit
:46:44. > :46:51.depressed, you will be your usual self once you get used to the idea.
:46:51. > :46:54.What is my usual self, my usual self is a very unusual self, I'm an
:46:54. > :47:00.extraordinary people, there is only one of me like there is only one of
:47:00. > :47:04.you. We are unrivaled. We're bloody you. We are unrivaled. We're bloody
:47:04. > :47:14.marvellous! A murky night, fog forming across
:47:14. > :47:18.
:47:18. > :47:22.the south-east causing problems in the morning. Patchy rain in the
:47:22. > :47:27.Midlands, not reaching East Anglia and the south-east. Hopefully the
:47:27. > :47:31.fog will lift to some extent. To the rear of the weather front
:47:31. > :47:35.things brightening up. Western parts of Wales will see sun before
:47:35. > :47:40.it sefplts further east towards the English border probably staying
:47:40. > :47:46.cloudy. Up across Northern Ireland set to be a lovely day, a chilly
:47:46. > :47:56.start, with a lot of sunshine throughout the day. A change from
:47:56. > :48:01.
:48:01. > :48:05.The sunshine not lasting long in the north. Cloudy, windy and at
:48:05. > :48:08.times wet weather across parts of Scotland and Northern Ireland in
:48:08. > :48:11.particular. Further south the rain should clear away, and Wednesday
:48:11. > :48:16.after a potentially frosty start it looks like a bright and crisp