:00:12. > :00:17.Tonight's stratospheric pay rises for top executives, pocketing 100-
:00:17. > :00:22.times more than employees, as if living on another planet.
:00:22. > :00:28.Strange British politics, one day they are a bunch of wealth creators,
:00:28. > :00:34.the next, a bunch of leeches. Is it time to redefine the "fat cats". We
:00:34. > :00:41.will hear why. We will hear from businesswoman, Nicola Horlick.Also
:00:41. > :00:46.tonight. TRANSLATION: We haven't put one single bullet on the
:00:46. > :00:51.Egyptian citizens. That's progress, but the people don't seem to
:00:51. > :00:55.believe those promises in Egypt. At the hacking inquiry, we examine
:00:55. > :01:02.how dodgy dealing and hacking of celebrities went beyond the Murdoch
:01:02. > :01:06.press. When I appeared on Newsnight, I mentioned someone in a less than
:01:06. > :01:12.flattering light, the next day the papers raking up all the old
:01:12. > :01:17.tabloid stories about myself and Hugh Grant. And climategate two,
:01:17. > :01:22.and new leak of e-mails from scientists on the eve of another
:01:22. > :01:28.international summit. How damage ring they this time?
:01:28. > :01:32.-- damaging are they this time. Good evening, President John F
:01:32. > :01:36.Kennedy tackled the idea of great inequalties in earnings in the
:01:36. > :01:39.United States, by saying a rising tide will raise all boats. What
:01:39. > :01:44.happens now, as when in Britain, the tide is falling. One thing we
:01:44. > :01:49.notice is real pay for most British workers is now going back wards.
:01:49. > :01:53.But for top executives it has gone up 4,000% over 30 years, according
:01:53. > :01:57.to the high pray commission. Is this just rewards, -- High Pay
:01:57. > :02:00.Commission. Is this just rewards, or is the market system broken, and
:02:00. > :02:10.can and will politicians do anything beyond reflecting public
:02:10. > :02:14.outrage. In place like this, a decent suit
:02:14. > :02:18.will cost you �4,000, a decent watch about the same. In London's
:02:18. > :02:22.Bond Street, as we are approaching bonus season, there will soon be no
:02:22. > :02:29.shortage of people who know how to make and spend money. But the
:02:29. > :02:34.wealth disparities are getting bigger. If we take average pay last
:02:34. > :02:38.year, and then see what cleaners, nurses, teachers, policemen, army
:02:39. > :02:44.officers, civil servants and local Government chief executives were
:02:44. > :02:50.paid, it all pales by comparison with the chief executive of the
:02:50. > :02:53.average FTSE 100 company. The thing that shocks me most is the way the
:02:53. > :02:58.top 0.1%, mostly company directors, have pulled away from the rest in
:02:58. > :03:01.the past 30 years. In 1980 being a company director was a respectable
:03:01. > :03:06.middle-class job, you got paid a decent salary. You were on
:03:06. > :03:11.something like 13-times average wages. Now they have pulled away so
:03:11. > :03:21.much they have had up to 5,000% increases over that time. They are
:03:21. > :03:26.now paid in the millions. They are paid at 75-88-times average wages.
:03:26. > :03:32.It was the Thatcher revolution of the 1980s that began the process,
:03:32. > :03:40.capital controls were abolished, top raift tax cut. But rise -- top
:03:40. > :03:44.rate of tax cut. But rising inequalties is not the only problem,
:03:44. > :03:49.but capitalism is changing and nowhere more than under Gordon
:03:49. > :03:54.Brown. With wages keeping track with growth in the 80s they nearly
:03:54. > :04:00.did, and even in the 90s, 90% was reflected in wage growth. After
:04:00. > :04:04.that it was a different story, Labour may have declared itself
:04:04. > :04:07.relaxed about people getting filthy rich, but it was the intensely
:04:07. > :04:12.average that did worse than before. My fear is that the British economy
:04:12. > :04:16.has caught a bit of the American inequality virus. This man, former
:04:16. > :04:20.adviser to President Obama, says it goes deeper than politics. In order
:04:20. > :04:25.to understand this phenomena, you have to understand the obvious
:04:25. > :04:30.point, middle-class families do not depend on their bond portfolio and
:04:30. > :04:35.their shares of stock, they depend on their pay cheques. If their pay
:04:35. > :04:40.cheques, adjusted by inflation, aren't going anywhere, which is
:04:40. > :04:45.what is happening for the past three decades, then you have a
:04:45. > :04:50.middle-class squeeze, it really follows. Some employeeers have
:04:50. > :04:55.dised today's report, commissioned by Compass and JRF, the Government
:04:55. > :04:59.has not. It is thinking about this hard. I want to see responsible
:04:59. > :05:02.capital, that is what the vast majority of British business,
:05:02. > :05:06.including the banking sector want to see as well. It is not right
:05:06. > :05:13.that we have the situation that has been happening over the last decade,
:05:13. > :05:17.where we have vast ex, extreme awards -- vast, extreme awards paid
:05:17. > :05:21.to directors of companies. It is not good for the consumers eers,
:05:21. > :05:26.the people who run the company -- consumers, the people who run the
:05:26. > :05:31.company and the public. High pay is a political hot topic, with the
:05:31. > :05:36.third bleak Christmas in a row coming up, it is not hard to see
:05:36. > :05:40.why. When the financial crisis started in 2008, redistribution was
:05:40. > :05:45.not high on the agenda. People were worried about the structure of
:05:45. > :05:50.capitalism, the credit boom, now, after three years of seeing the
:05:50. > :05:53.rich get richer, it is about the rich.
:05:53. > :05:57.An opinion poll for the High Pay Commission found almost three
:05:57. > :06:00.quarters of people thought income differences were too large. Well
:06:00. > :06:03.over half said ordinary working people didn't get their fair share
:06:03. > :06:09.of the wealth, and almost as many laid the problem at the feet of
:06:09. > :06:13.Government. We like to think that we have a very visceral sense of
:06:13. > :06:16.fairness in this country. A lot of people would say that earning
:06:16. > :06:20.enough to become independently wealthy in three to five years at
:06:20. > :06:24.the top of one of our big businesss not fair. I think we can take
:06:24. > :06:29.action on this, we don't have to be led by other countries. We have
:06:29. > :06:34.gone too much in the direction of America, where pay has really
:06:34. > :06:38.reached stratospheric levels. here's the dilemma, the coalition's
:06:38. > :06:44.less than a week away from announcing its growth strategy. It
:06:44. > :06:50.is being urge bid some in its own ranks to -- urged by some in its
:06:50. > :06:57.own ranks to rip up the 50p tax rate and other measures, all in the
:06:57. > :07:01.pursuit of wealth creation. But inequality has now arrived, in
:07:01. > :07:11.its chauffeured Bentley, on to the political scene, that complicated
:07:11. > :07:15.
:07:15. > :07:18.matters. We have Elizabeth Truss and Chuka
:07:18. > :07:20.Umunna and Nicola Horlick to discuss this. People get really
:07:20. > :07:24.wound up about it and politicians make a lot of statements but
:07:24. > :07:28.nothing is done. It was not done under Labour and it won't get done
:07:28. > :07:32.here? I don't agree with that. It doesn't talk about the impact of
:07:32. > :07:37.business, the report, having rewards for failure or rewards
:07:37. > :07:42.disproportionate to performance. Having pay incentives within
:07:42. > :07:47.business doesn't promote good business practice. Brilliant
:07:47. > :07:51.analysis, what bu what will happen? We have said a number of things,
:07:51. > :07:54.pay and transparency is key. Business needs to be working in
:07:54. > :07:58.partnership with the public. There are things in the report today, for
:07:58. > :08:04.example, having an employee on the remuneration committee of the board
:08:04. > :08:09.which would increase transparency. Also having companies publish the
:08:09. > :08:13.ratio of the average paid employee to the person highest paid in the
:08:13. > :08:18.business. There is a dire need for greater simplification of the pay
:08:19. > :08:21.structures. I speak as a former corporate employment lawyer. In the
:08:21. > :08:27.perspective of the company and the executive and society, being able
:08:27. > :08:30.to better understand these things is crucial. The thing is, we need a
:08:30. > :08:34.partnership of society and business working together. We need wealth
:08:34. > :08:38.creation as well? Of course we do, they are interdependant. You need
:08:38. > :08:42.there to be trust between the two, we need, of course, communities,
:08:42. > :08:46.which feed businesses, employees and customers, but society needs
:08:46. > :08:49.business too, which is creating those jobs. Is there a consensus
:08:49. > :08:53.about this. Vincent Cable said this is unacceptable, we can't have it,
:08:53. > :08:57.again, what can you do about it? think there is more consensus on
:08:57. > :09:01.the problem than the solution. My view is we haven't seen enough of a
:09:01. > :09:04.free market. We have had very heavily regulated markets. New
:09:04. > :09:08.companies have not been able to enter, we haven't had enough
:09:08. > :09:12.competition, that means companies have been able to make huge profits,
:09:12. > :09:16.and pay chief executives more. you saying there is a market
:09:16. > :09:21.solution to profound market failure, this is surely a failure? We are
:09:21. > :09:25.83rd in the world now for regulation, 50% of our GDP is spent
:09:25. > :09:29.by the state. I don't think you can say that's a true free market. The
:09:29. > :09:33.other issue we have got. Just to be clear, you should think we should
:09:33. > :09:38.keep our fingers crossed and hope the market will sort this out?
:09:38. > :09:42.think we need more competition, in the banking sector, which has
:09:42. > :09:45.become increasingly concentrated. We need to split up banks that are
:09:45. > :09:48.too big, to ensure more competition. We need more competition in the
:09:48. > :09:52.labour market. One of the things that has happened is we have seen
:09:52. > :09:58.the development of an hourglass economy, so the number of high-
:09:58. > :10:03.skilled jobs has gone up, and the number of mid--skilled jobs has
:10:03. > :10:09.gone down. The last Government didn't prepare people for that, we
:10:09. > :10:14.are 28th in the world for maths. Ed Milliband admitted we don't have
:10:14. > :10:18.enough engineers or wolder, or people educate today do the jobs
:10:18. > :10:24.now. How can you have a proper competition system if people don't
:10:24. > :10:27.have an understanding of what the rewards are. We need a robust
:10:27. > :10:32.competition regime, to argue there hasn't been a market failure here.
:10:32. > :10:38.In the last year we have seen a 49% increase in the remuneration of
:10:38. > :10:43.FTSE 100 directors, but only a 3% increase in profit. I agree about
:10:43. > :10:45.the market transparency, that is making the market better. We have
:10:45. > :10:49.seen Government introducing regulation after regulation that
:10:49. > :10:53.stops new companies entering the market. I disagree. Shareholders
:10:53. > :10:57.haven't a grip on this either, have they? You can blame shareholders
:10:57. > :11:02.and also non-executive directors, they are generally the people who
:11:02. > :11:06.sit on the remuneration committees that decide what pay is. Including
:11:07. > :11:10.for themselves? In that report, somebody said, that this is, we
:11:10. > :11:13.have been infected by what is going on in the United States. I think
:11:13. > :11:17.that's true. Because we have got many companies now which are more
:11:17. > :11:24.global, if you have got a large pharmaceutical company, which is
:11:24. > :11:29.based in the UK, which is competing for top, top executives, with Merc
:11:29. > :11:33.and Pfizer. This report is a myth that these people will disappear to
:11:33. > :11:36.Dubai, they don't? The point is there are certain number of people
:11:36. > :11:41.in the pharmaceutical industry who will take the top jobs, they are
:11:41. > :11:43.not necessary British, we want the best person to manage the top
:11:43. > :11:47.pharmaceutical company. You are competing in the international
:11:47. > :11:52.market. This issue is not limited to the private sector. We see
:11:52. > :11:56.organisations like the BBC, or Network Rail, giving out huge
:11:56. > :12:00.salaries as well. It is not limited to the private sector. Yes, there
:12:00. > :12:05.are issues about competition in the market, there are also issues in
:12:05. > :12:08.quangos as well. How would you see the market correcting this system?
:12:08. > :12:12.I think Nicola is absolutely right, we need a clearer relationship
:12:12. > :12:15.between the owners and managers in a business. What has been happening
:12:15. > :12:20.is the managers have been getting the rewards, and the owners have
:12:20. > :12:24.been taking the risks. How do you get that? You get that through
:12:24. > :12:27.shareholders exercising their rights. Yes. Wait a minute,
:12:27. > :12:30.shareholders own the business, there are examples in the past
:12:31. > :12:36.where shareholders have taken action and been very successful. In
:12:36. > :12:41.years gone by, it used to be the case that top executives had three-
:12:41. > :12:45.year rolling contracts, and pension funds, systematically, at AGMs
:12:45. > :12:50.voted against that, and it stopped. This ignores one thing, part of the
:12:50. > :12:54.problem is there is a closed circle in some of these boards. It is a
:12:54. > :12:58.cosy club. I completely agree we need to increase shareholders
:12:58. > :13:04.engagment. There is a democratic deficit there. There is a
:13:04. > :13:07.difficulty for us in a sense that two fifths of UK shares are held by
:13:07. > :13:11.international investors, we have to work out how to better engage them.
:13:11. > :13:19.I come back to the need for greater transparency and accountability,
:13:19. > :13:23.Government has a role to play there working with business. Is Vincent
:13:23. > :13:27.Cable closer to Chuka Umunna's view than you are? We need to empower
:13:27. > :13:32.consumers. How do you do that without transparency? In the
:13:32. > :13:37.banking industry we need to make it easier for consumers to change
:13:37. > :13:40.their bank accounts to drive competition, so more banks enter
:13:40. > :13:44.the market. Take I don't want regulators and Governments setting
:13:44. > :13:49.people's pay, which is the thin end of the wedge that you are decribing.
:13:49. > :13:53.This commission didn't call for that. Nobody called for that.
:13:53. > :13:57.did call for workers to be making decisions about remuneration.
:13:57. > :14:00.are definitely against that? I am against that. There are lots of
:14:00. > :14:04.industries where there is plenty of competition where the companies
:14:04. > :14:07.aren't that profitable, and the chief executive is paid a lot of
:14:07. > :14:11.money. It is not about competition. What would you do, it does seem
:14:11. > :14:15.some people must be uniquely undermotivated in chief executive
:14:15. > :14:19.positions, because they get rewards that are completely out of step
:14:19. > :14:23.with workers what would you do? would encourage shareholders, it
:14:23. > :14:28.may well be the case that 40% of shares owned outside the UK. That
:14:28. > :14:31.is the FTSE, it is not true of medium-sized companies and smaller
:14:32. > :14:35.companies. That is a general figure for all companies, the FTSE is
:14:35. > :14:39.higher. It is very high. How would you empower the shareholders?
:14:39. > :14:43.shareholders are empowered. They don't use T They are not using
:14:43. > :14:46.their votes effectively. What they need to do, and also, major
:14:46. > :14:51.shareholders get the opportunity to discuss these things, with senior
:14:51. > :14:55.management, at least twice a year. If you have a big shareholding in a
:14:55. > :14:59.company. Often it is not a meaningful engagment. This
:14:59. > :15:05.discussion I find bemusing because it is talking as if some how the
:15:05. > :15:08.status quo is fine and the market will step in. It is definitely not
:15:08. > :15:13.that. Do you think things have profoundly changed, in the good
:15:13. > :15:18.times you put up with it as share horld or worker, but you don't --
:15:18. > :15:21.shareholder or worker, but you won't put up with it now? I think
:15:21. > :15:24.things are getting worse and the previous Government and its
:15:24. > :15:28.policies face blame for that. Ed Milliband criticised the old rules,
:15:28. > :15:31.they were rules invented by Gordon Brown in terms of regulation of the
:15:31. > :15:35.economy. They absolutely were, when the going was good, Labour was
:15:35. > :15:43.happy to take the money and they did. And now they say the rules are
:15:43. > :15:47.wrong, you invented them. If you let me get a word in. I wouldn't
:15:47. > :15:55.say that, I find this amusing that there is irony you get tapped from
:15:55. > :15:59.the right for not just leaving it to the market, and you get by --
:15:59. > :16:04.attacked by not doing enough in Government. One thing we put in
:16:04. > :16:11.Government was legislation to implement the Walker Review, which
:16:11. > :16:15.would have meant in the financial circumstances disclosure of pay in
:16:16. > :16:19.bands. With remuneration you need to know what it is, the Government
:16:19. > :16:24.put in legislation for. That you talk about our Government, but you
:16:24. > :16:28.have been in power for more than 18 months, now is the time for action.
:16:28. > :16:31.I want to see more competition. Recently I proposed more
:16:31. > :16:35.competition in the bank industry. Would you agree with Vincent Cable
:16:35. > :16:38.that something must be done, that might include some kind of
:16:38. > :16:43.legislation, isn't he closer to Chuka Umunna's point of view than
:16:43. > :16:50.your's? I think what we need is a change in corporate culture.
:16:50. > :16:54.legislation? We need shareholders to be more active, and change the
:16:54. > :16:56.ownership to management. legislation? That may involve
:16:56. > :17:00.legislation about corporate structure, it certainly doesn't
:17:00. > :17:06.involve the Government deciding how much people get paid. Nobody is
:17:06. > :17:10.arguing for that? You are You are erecting a straw man here to win an
:17:10. > :17:14.argument you are losing. The voice mail hacking scandal started, we
:17:14. > :17:18.were confidently told, with one or two bad apples at one newspaper,
:17:18. > :17:25.the News of the World, now as the Leveson Inquiry rolls on we have
:17:25. > :17:29.gone from the bad apple theory to the collapse of the News of the
:17:29. > :17:39.World, and into the Murdoch empire and other news groups. We have
:17:39. > :17:42.
:17:42. > :17:46.tried to figure out how far the contagion has spread. Put these on
:17:46. > :17:49.the tab. Steve Coogan argues that his talent and resulting public
:17:50. > :17:58.profile does not justify intrusive investigations into his private
:17:58. > :18:02.life. I don't want to see an erection. Right guys. Finished with
:18:02. > :18:06.the Daily Mail. Arriving at the Leveson Inquiry today he revealed
:18:06. > :18:08.how he has been at the end of some extraordinary attempts to dig dirt.
:18:08. > :18:15.One involved a journalist from News of the World, who phoned him about
:18:15. > :18:18.an affair, and to offer him a deal. If I confirmed certain aspects of
:18:18. > :18:26.the story, in return he would guarantee that the more lurid
:18:27. > :18:33.details would be left out of the story. Yes. So I confirmed certain
:18:33. > :18:40.details for him, and he gave me his word that the more embarrassing
:18:40. > :18:49.part of the story, which I knew would upset my then wife's family
:18:49. > :18:52.would be omitted. And after that, I received, my manager received a
:18:52. > :18:56.phone call from Andy Coulson saying that they had recorded the whole
:18:57. > :19:01.phone call and they were going to put everything in the newspaper.
:19:01. > :19:05.Steve Coogan also argued that many celebrities are too scared of
:19:05. > :19:11.tabloid reprisals to speak up. He says the Mail has been critical
:19:11. > :19:14.after his appearances on Newsnight. All the Daily Mail are interested
:19:14. > :19:21.in are the commercial interests, it is selling newspapers, everything
:19:21. > :19:26.is based on who is shagging who, it is not about exposing corruption.
:19:26. > :19:33.In fact, when I appeared on Newsnight, I mentioned Paul Dakerin
:19:33. > :19:38.in a slightly less than flattering light, a an unwise thing to do. The
:19:38. > :19:42.next day big story in the newspaper, raking up all the tabloid stories
:19:42. > :19:47.about myself and Hugh Grant. It appeared to me, probably gone to
:19:47. > :19:51.his office and sent a memo round saying if you want to throw dirt at
:19:51. > :19:55.Steve Coogan and Hugh Grant, be my guest. In recent cases witnesses
:19:55. > :19:58.have sought to throw the net wider, saying phone hacking was not
:19:58. > :20:03.confined to News of the World. In the summer Newsnight revealed
:20:03. > :20:09.allegations against the Mirror Group of newspapers, allegation
:20:09. > :20:12.that is were denied. There have been whisper about the Sun and the
:20:12. > :20:15.Daily Mail, that have been denied. How strong is the evidence beyond
:20:15. > :20:20.the News of the World. If you look at the career histories of those
:20:20. > :20:25.arrested so far, it appears logical the police may ask questions of
:20:25. > :20:30.other newspapers. These three journalists worked together at the
:20:30. > :20:37.News of the World, before that the Sunday People owned by the Mirror
:20:37. > :20:44.Group, it hardly amounts to a smoking gun. Footballer Gary
:20:44. > :20:48.Flitcroft believes his messages were hacked by the Sunday People
:20:48. > :20:54.after two women tried to sell their story. I got a phone call off a lap
:20:54. > :20:58.dancer I was seeing, and stated she was being offered �5,000, and if I
:20:58. > :21:02.didn't pay her she would get it off the newspaper. There was no way the
:21:02. > :21:06.two girls knew each other. It is a massive coincidence that the Sunday
:21:06. > :21:13.People get two girls to happen. It doesn't happen. The only way they
:21:13. > :21:21.could have got it was from my phone bill. Have you any evidence of
:21:21. > :21:25.phone hacking or is it just speculation? No, it is just
:21:25. > :21:28.speculation, they didn't know each other or live near each other, it
:21:29. > :21:35.is a massive coincidence the newspaper gets two girls in the
:21:35. > :21:44.space of two months. Yesterday Hugh Grant told his suspicions of a Mail
:21:44. > :21:52.on Sunday stories his relationship with a plumy-voiced woman in
:21:52. > :21:58.America, he says it may have been voice messages hacked between him
:21:58. > :22:02.and a plumy-voiced friend. I can't see any basis for the story except
:22:02. > :22:05.the voice messages. You haven't alleged that in the public domain.
:22:05. > :22:08.No, when I was preparing the statement, going through all my
:22:08. > :22:13.trials and tribulations with the press, I looked at that one and
:22:13. > :22:17.thought it was weird, and then the penny dropped. I think it the
:22:18. > :22:22.highest it can be put is it is a piece of speculation on your part
:22:22. > :22:26.in relation to this? Yeah. The newspaper denied this yesterday,
:22:26. > :22:31.saying the Mail on Sunday utterly refutes Hugh Grant's claim that
:22:31. > :22:36.they got any story as a result of phone hacking. Then there was our
:22:36. > :22:42.exclusive story in the summer. When Heather Mills told us she had been
:22:42. > :22:52.contacted by a senior journalist in the Mirror Group, saying he had
:22:52. > :22:58.
:22:59. > :23:01.heard a message left by Sir Paul Back then the Mirror Group denied
:23:01. > :23:04.any knowledge of phone hacking saying its journalists operate
:23:04. > :23:08.within the law. All in all, there is plenty of smoke but little fire
:23:08. > :23:13.on the question of whether other papers hacked phones. That they
:23:13. > :23:15.sometimes behaved unethically is far easier to prove.
:23:15. > :23:19.The solicitor, Mark Lewis, represents some of those who have
:23:19. > :23:25.been appearing before the Leveson Inquiry, and will give evidence
:23:25. > :23:30.there tomorrow imself. Tim Lockhart is a former editor of the Scotsman,
:23:30. > :23:34.and a lecturer at the University of Kent. There is a lot of speculation
:23:34. > :23:39.and allegationings, there is no proof of any conat that stage --
:23:39. > :23:42.allegations, but there is no proof beyond the News of the World?
:23:42. > :23:47.news news were almost unlucky, because mull -- the News of the
:23:47. > :23:52.World were almost unlucky because Glenn Mulcaire had written evidence
:23:52. > :23:57.down. If we compare what was said by the News of the World at the
:23:57. > :24:00.very beginning, there was also a denial. They ran an editoral, the
:24:00. > :24:06.one bad apple theory, they didn't do anybody else. They told that
:24:06. > :24:10.story, and they ran an editoral in addition which said, this was a sad
:24:10. > :24:14.day in the News of the World's 164- year history. Of course, what we
:24:14. > :24:19.have got to be very concerned about is whether or not there is a cover-
:24:19. > :24:24.up in other newspapers. Look, all professions, including the legal
:24:24. > :24:29.profession, have people who don't follow the rules. It seems very
:24:29. > :24:33.unlikely that the News of the World was the only newspaper that had a
:24:34. > :24:37.small core of people who didn't follow the rules who broke the law.
:24:38. > :24:42.Eventhough there is no proof, but it is certainly worth looking at,
:24:43. > :24:50.and there is a smell here, isn't there? We seem to be inventing the
:24:50. > :24:53.novel legal precedent here of guilt until proven innocent. I think we
:24:54. > :24:56.should reverse it and take the normal stance. There is not any
:24:56. > :24:59.compelling evidence that journalists outside the News of the
:24:59. > :25:03.World or News International's newspaper titles have been involved
:25:04. > :25:07.in phone hacking. There are good reasons to believe that in the
:25:07. > :25:12.current circumstances, any editor or newspaper group which issued
:25:12. > :25:15.such an emphatic denial, as the one issued yesterday by associated
:25:15. > :25:19.newspapers, could possibly be lying, would have to be a fool. Do you
:25:19. > :25:24.accept then that what we may be seeing here, with the Leveson
:25:24. > :25:29.Inquiry is something very important for those involved, very cathartic
:25:29. > :25:33.for those involved, really harrowing stories, we heard some
:25:33. > :25:36.terrible stuff today, but actually t may not change much? I don't
:25:36. > :25:40.think that is right. It is innocent until proven guilty. You have a
:25:41. > :25:44.difficulty that the press choose to report. So we saw Hugh Grant's
:25:44. > :25:49.evidence yesterday, it was a selected extract of evidence,
:25:49. > :25:53.people didn't look at the full statement, they maybe watched the
:25:53. > :25:56.Hugh Grant show and saw the cross- examination of the small bit.
:25:56. > :26:00.People have to look at the statements available on-line. They
:26:00. > :26:05.can go through exactly what he said and look at the level of intrusion.
:26:05. > :26:09.And then perhaps people are able to make a choice.
:26:09. > :26:13.I don't think that any of the statements that were issued
:26:14. > :26:19.yesterday by Hugh Grant give firm evidence that his phone was hacked
:26:19. > :26:24.by any newspaper. But he would accept that himself, he would never
:26:24. > :26:30.that this is the only logical way he thinks this -- infers that this
:26:30. > :26:35.is the only logical way he this could have happened? We know there
:26:35. > :26:40.are many logical ways of finding out what people don't want in the
:26:40. > :26:43.public domain. It is persistent reporting. Is it Truth and
:26:43. > :26:48.Reconciliation Commission where people are just finger pointing?
:26:48. > :26:53.think it is a perfect storm. I don't think we would have had a
:26:53. > :26:57.Leveson Inquiry, if Murdoch mur's bid for BSkyB had not coincided
:26:57. > :27:06.with the disturbing behaviour, which included the hacking of koul
:27:06. > :27:14.Dowler's phone. -- including Sally Dowler's phone.
:27:14. > :27:17.-- Milly Dowler's phone. A -- A large number of newspapers,
:27:17. > :27:23.broadcast journalists are being tarred with the same brush as a
:27:23. > :27:26.small group of journalists in News International. Guilt by
:27:26. > :27:29.association? I'm not sure that is right. You talked about truth and
:27:30. > :27:35.reconciliation. I'm not sure we are having the full truth either. We
:27:35. > :27:39.need to look at the truth, because actually what happens is we end up
:27:40. > :27:44.losing another Sunday newspaper, or we end up losing a daily newspaper
:27:44. > :27:48.because people don't tell the truth. They cover up things, and if it
:27:48. > :27:51.would have come out, the big loser are the people who used to read the
:27:51. > :27:55.News of the World. There was such a cover up that when it came out they
:27:55. > :27:59.had no choice, nowhere to go, and the same will happen with other
:27:59. > :28:03.newspapers. Do you think newspapers, all newspapers actually, do they
:28:03. > :28:07.have a future, and particular lie the tabloids what will they do?
:28:07. > :28:14.raise a -- -- particularly the tabloids, what will they do?
:28:14. > :28:19.raise an important point. This is not the biggest problem facing
:28:19. > :28:23.journalism. The biggest problem is most newspapers are nearly bankrupt,
:28:24. > :28:30.the multimedia has completely undermined the advertising market.
:28:30. > :28:35.We face a problem with the condemnation of tabloid newspapers
:28:35. > :28:38.risks losing the only profitable newspapers in this country, while
:28:38. > :28:42.not facing the reality if those newspapers were to die we would
:28:42. > :28:47.have no newspaper press in this country. The Guardian, that exposed
:28:47. > :28:51.this, is losing �100,000 a day, the Independent is supported by the
:28:51. > :28:56.generousness of its owners, the Times is subsidised by the Sun. We
:28:56. > :29:00.face a real crisis in British journalism, it is about economics.
:29:00. > :29:04.A economics and this is a side show? It is and it isn't. If we
:29:04. > :29:09.talk about bankruptcy, we have financial bankruptcy on one side
:29:09. > :29:13.and moral bankruptcy on the other. We don't need to keep moral
:29:13. > :29:20.bankruptcy alive. Why should we be subsidising it. How many phones
:29:20. > :29:26.need to be hacked, how much information needs to be obtained
:29:26. > :29:30.illegally. Remember what was once told in a reworking of the
:29:30. > :29:34.journalistic cliche, climategate. It turned on e-mails from the
:29:34. > :29:37.university of East Anglia, that looked at robust claims of global
:29:37. > :29:41.warming just before an international climate conference.
:29:41. > :29:44.There is another climate conference coming up and, guess what, it has
:29:44. > :29:48.happened against. We have been figuring out if the leaks add up to
:29:48. > :29:52.much. What is in the e-mails? timing of this is clearly
:29:52. > :29:57.significant. The latest round of international talks on climate
:29:57. > :30:02.change begin on Monday. These 5,000 e-mails, involved some of the same
:30:02. > :30:08.characters, the same period of time as that very first release back in
:30:08. > :30:12.2009. What's important is that there are snippets of these e-mails
:30:12. > :30:16.appearing on climate-sceptic internet sites. These have no
:30:16. > :30:20.context, without that it is difficult to work out the true
:30:20. > :30:23.meaning of the original e-mails. People will want to scour the
:30:23. > :30:27.detail. Many of those I have spoken to this evening had not the chance
:30:27. > :30:31.to do that. Clearly there is material here that people, who are
:30:31. > :30:37.already suspicious about the science of climate change will sees
:30:37. > :30:41.on. I think in particular exchanges where there are words used such as,
:30:41. > :30:51."spin", or "PR". We have a sample of some of those. There is one that
:30:51. > :31:10.
:31:10. > :31:15.I spoke this evening to one of the key characters involved, there is a
:31:15. > :31:19.high-profile scientist called Professor Michael Mann from Penn
:31:19. > :31:22.University in the United States. He was cleared by misconduct last year
:31:22. > :31:28.by his university over the climategate affair. He says the
:31:28. > :31:31.exchanges show the back and forth of scientists wrestling with
:31:31. > :31:34.scientific issues, disagreeing with each other, frank discussions that
:31:34. > :31:38.are really important to the advancement of science. But I put
:31:38. > :31:41.it to him that some of these e- mails clearly the scientists are
:31:41. > :31:46.not just talking about science. They are talking about policy. And
:31:46. > :31:50.how to deal with the media. And I asked him if that's territory where
:31:50. > :31:56.scientists really should be getting involved at all. The attacks
:31:56. > :32:00.against science gain the upperhand in the public discourse and in
:32:00. > :32:04.considerations of policy. If scientists aren't there to defend
:32:04. > :32:08.their science and defend themselves against these attacks. And
:32:08. > :32:12.sometimes that means getting involved in the public discourse
:32:12. > :32:18.correctly. Are there any other implications in this? I think there
:32:18. > :32:22.will be calls for an examination of the details to see if there is
:32:22. > :32:25.anything fresh here or it isn't more of the same. Three inquiries
:32:26. > :32:31.have concluded that the British scientists involved in climategate
:32:31. > :32:34.did not act fraudulently or manipulate data, but they urged
:32:34. > :32:38.scientists to be more open with their data and how they interpret
:32:38. > :32:45.it. There is one difference, there is a message posted at the same
:32:45. > :32:51.time as one of these e-mails, where the person who has posted them is
:32:51. > :32:54.saying that spending money on climate chaiank with exacerbate
:32:54. > :32:58.poverty. The police have been interested and doing checks to see
:32:58. > :33:02.if there are any more clues of who is involved in the original hack.
:33:02. > :33:07.There are reports of Egyptian security forces going in hard
:33:07. > :33:11.against protestors in Tahrir Square. Teargas has again been used,
:33:11. > :33:15.according to a BBC correspondent on the scene. Protestors are speaking
:33:15. > :33:19.of a second revolution. Nine months ago they were delighted when the
:33:19. > :33:24.army, as a symbol of the nation, persuaded President Mubarak to go.
:33:24. > :33:28.Many are doubtful about statements from the army chief, which commit
:33:28. > :33:32.the military to democracy. We have this report.
:33:32. > :33:36.Four days into what some are calling Egypt's second revolution.
:33:36. > :33:43.The ragged encampment at the centre of Tahrir Square, geared up for
:33:43. > :33:48.another demonstration today. Amid the tumult, a man whose story shows
:33:48. > :33:54.how high a price some Egyptians will pay for democracy. This man
:33:54. > :33:58.was a dentist, he will never practice again, he's blind e lost
:33:58. > :34:04.one eye in January's revolution from President Mubarak's forces,
:34:04. > :34:09.the other to the forces of the military prueling council two days
:34:09. > :34:14.ago. -- ruling council two days ago. TRANSLATION: Police were trying to
:34:14. > :34:16.enter the square, they were firing buck shots and teargas and rubber
:34:16. > :34:20.bullets. We are defending the stones. I was standing on the
:34:20. > :34:23.frontline and I was shot in my eye. As people gathered in greater
:34:23. > :34:29.numbers to demand that Egypt's military rulers leave power
:34:29. > :34:34.immediately, protestors were celebrating his courage. Losing the
:34:34. > :34:38.sight of one eye, earlier in the year, why did you come back into
:34:38. > :34:44.this incredibly dangerous situation again, most people wouldn't have
:34:44. > :34:49.done that? For me, I stand before you in this square because I want
:34:49. > :34:54.dignity for myself and the country. You must live free and with dignity.
:34:54. > :34:58.It is not important to lose my eye. It is not important to lose
:34:58. > :35:06.anything. We are standing for the sake of our dignity, and nothing
:35:06. > :35:11.will make us go back. What dignity now means, at least to
:35:11. > :35:15.those on Tahrir Square, is living under civilian rule. They waited
:35:15. > :35:20.for an expected announcement about a handover of power by generals,
:35:20. > :35:22.who they saw as liberators in the spring, then began to distrust, and
:35:22. > :35:27.with the renewed violence of recent days, to hate.
:35:27. > :35:32.One of Egypt's leading rights campaigners told me abuses this
:35:32. > :35:35.year have sometimes been worse than under Mubarak. He has drawn up a
:35:35. > :35:45.charge sheet against senior officers, he says were behind
:35:45. > :35:47.
:35:47. > :35:49.orders to maime and kill in recent days. It is a shoot-to-kill policy.
:35:50. > :35:54.It is Interior Ministry police, it is the same strategy of killing a
:35:54. > :35:58.few protestors so the rest of them can go home. Obviously it has
:35:58. > :36:02.failed, just like it failed in January. He thinks the military has
:36:02. > :36:07.deceived itself about the popular mood. Now we are under a Military
:36:07. > :36:12.Council whose members strongly believe that eepbl they are
:36:12. > :36:16.patriotic and that -- only they are patriotic, and that those who
:36:16. > :36:21.oppose their policies are the enemies within, with an external
:36:21. > :36:25.agenda, aiming to destablise Egypt. In their mind and in their
:36:25. > :36:27.narrative they distinguish between the protestors filling Tahrir
:36:27. > :36:31.Square and other cities now, and those in the same place as January.
:36:31. > :36:35.They think the January protest was a justified uprising against
:36:35. > :36:43.injustice, where as this protest is an attempt to destablise the
:36:43. > :36:48.country. When the head of the armed fores, Field Marshal Tantawi,
:36:48. > :36:53.finally appeared on TV this morning, he confirmed how offended the army
:36:53. > :36:59.felt by the demonstrations against it. TRANSLATION: Some people have
:36:59. > :37:05.tried to entice us to provocation, we put up with injuries and
:37:05. > :37:11.criticism, however, we didn't give in to these attempts. We are
:37:11. > :37:15.keeping our restraint. The Government supported us in all of
:37:15. > :37:19.this. But as the crowd waited outside in the square, he told them
:37:19. > :37:26.what he believes most Egyptians want to hear, that there will be a
:37:26. > :37:30.clear timetable for a transition to civilian rule. Tran To carry on the
:37:30. > :37:37.transitional period with the co- operation of the Supreme Council of
:37:37. > :37:42.the Armed Forces, to commit the holding of parliamentary elections
:37:43. > :37:46.on time. To elect a President of the State before the end of June
:37:46. > :37:50.2012. The Armed Forces represented
:37:50. > :37:55.through its Supreme Council does not seek power. So what did they
:37:55. > :38:03.make of that on Tahrir Square? think this is not enough. I saw a
:38:03. > :38:10.rewind of Mubarak's speech, I think this is a deja vu of what happened
:38:10. > :38:14.on January 25th. I think it is fine, but an apology is needed for those
:38:14. > :38:17.who died in Tahrir Square. Everybody needs an apology.
:38:17. > :38:23.wasn't enough for the Tahrir Square people, they thought it wasn't
:38:23. > :38:26.enough for them. They didn't satisfy, his speech wasn't that
:38:26. > :38:33.strong that could fulfil their needs. They will still be here and
:38:33. > :38:37.stay until more of their demands could be accomplished or be heard
:38:37. > :38:43.from Tantawi. Here on Tahrir Square, where I can still feel the teargas
:38:43. > :38:47.in my eyes, where tempers have risen and risen in recent days,
:38:47. > :38:52.most aren't satisfied by the Field Marshal's words, but this isn't
:38:52. > :38:55.Egypt, and the promise of a clear transition for a democracy, may
:38:56. > :38:59.play differently in other parts of the country. Here on the banks of
:38:59. > :39:02.the Nile, anger hasn't subsided, beyond there is a yearning for
:39:02. > :39:07.order and stability that the generals hope will work to their
:39:08. > :39:11.advantage. We were hoping to talk to the
:39:11. > :39:14.Egyptian novelist and activist, Ahdaf Soueif, who is in Cairo,
:39:14. > :39:17.apparently there is some problem with the line. We hope to get
:39:17. > :39:27.through before the end of the programme. Let's have a look at
:39:27. > :39:31.
:39:31. > :39:37.tomorrow morning's front pages, A member of the financial stability
:39:37. > :39:42.panel hits out. This comes after, as we were reporting earlier, this
:39:42. > :39:47.great disquiet about the disparity of pay in this country. The Tahrir
:39:47. > :39:51.Square protests are on the front page too. The Egyptian general's
:39:51. > :39:56.pledge fails to quell new Tahrir Square's protests. And the Thomas
:39:56. > :39:59.Cook, the big business story domestically, their shares plunge
:39:59. > :40:03.domestically, their shares plunge 75% amid fresh talks on the debt
:40:03. > :40:07.burden. The Mail, and a few of the papers
:40:07. > :40:11.have the same story, a damming report into home help for the
:40:11. > :40:17.elderly, which finds neglect so appalling some wanted to dry. The
:40:17. > :40:20.cruelty of the careless. Thousands of elderly people being abused and
:40:20. > :40:24.neglected in their homes by the staff meant to car for them. In
:40:24. > :40:29.some cases treatment is -- care for them. In some cases the treatment
:40:29. > :40:32.is so bad that frail pensioners have been left wanting to die. It
:40:32. > :40:35.comes after studies exposing the shocking standard of care for old
:40:35. > :40:40.people in hospitals in care homes across the country. The Telegraph
:40:40. > :40:45.has the same story, the elderly abused by their carers. It also a
:40:45. > :40:55.story about David Cameron in �140,000 land deal with a lobbying
:40:55. > :40:56.
:40:56. > :41:02.boss. On my copy here the print is We join Ahdaf Soueif, the Egyptian
:41:02. > :41:05.goflist and actist, she has been -- novelist and activist, she has been
:41:05. > :41:09.in Tahrir Square all day. We heard the military leadership promise
:41:09. > :41:12.they don't want to hold on to power and there will be presidential
:41:12. > :41:18.elections next June, why isn't that good enough for you and the
:41:18. > :41:21.protestors? Because we no longer believe them. Because we have been
:41:21. > :41:27.through this before with them, and before that with Mubarak, where
:41:27. > :41:29.things are promised and then they don't happen. If anybody had any
:41:29. > :41:32.doubts remaining after their performance over the last nine
:41:32. > :41:35.months, what they have done over the last three days should put an
:41:35. > :41:40.end to that. They have been killing people, they have been gassing
:41:40. > :41:44.people. Tahrir Square has been gassed as we speak. Alexandria,
:41:44. > :41:48.people are dying there, and in other parts of the country. So, you
:41:48. > :41:52.know, actions speak louder than words. We don't believe they will
:41:52. > :41:56.let go of power. All the evidence, it is too detailed to go into here,
:41:56. > :42:00.but the evidence in the detail of their proposals for the coming few
:42:00. > :42:03.months, show they don't intend to leave. Just to be clear. Are you
:42:03. > :42:08.saying, we have been reporting the protests in Cairo, are you saying
:42:08. > :42:17.they are elsewhere in the country, Alexandria, Suez and upper Egypt
:42:17. > :42:22.too, is it going on in other places? Alexandria, Suez, Aswan, it
:42:22. > :42:26.is everywhere. Haven't some things changed though for the better, you
:42:26. > :42:29.know, many exiles have gone home, there is a degree of press freedom
:42:30. > :42:34.and so on. I suppose what I'm saying is there no way you should
:42:34. > :42:39.be more patient about this, do you think? No, absolutely not. I think
:42:39. > :42:43.we need to save ourselves and get rid of them. We vpblt had exiles
:42:43. > :42:47.from Egypt -- we haven't had exiles from Egypt, people have always been
:42:47. > :42:51.free to come and go. We have a sense of press freedom, that has
:42:51. > :42:59.always been here. That is not because they haven't tried to shut
:42:59. > :43:04.it down. They have. State media has been just as bad, and playing just
:43:04. > :43:08.as unpleasant and treacherous a role as they have in the time of
:43:08. > :43:12.Mubarak. The one thing that has changed for the better is because
:43:12. > :43:16.we had the revolution in January and February, we believe in
:43:16. > :43:23.ourselves. And people have broken that barrier of fear. So they
:43:23. > :43:27.detain people, they torture them, when they come back on the streets
:43:27. > :43:30.they are back in Tahrir Square. What has changed is we know what we
:43:30. > :43:34.want and we know we can get it and we believe in ourselves. Do you
:43:34. > :43:39.think you can get it without more people being shot in the streets
:43:39. > :43:43.and being teargased, there may perhaps be more bloodshed? This is
:43:43. > :43:48.the terrible thing. We thought, on the 11th of February, when Mubarak
:43:48. > :43:57.stepped down, that we had already paid a pretty big price. Obviously
:43:57. > :44:02.that wasn't enough. We are paying a bigger price now. But the thing is,
:44:02. > :44:06.if people back down now it is the end. We really might as well not
:44:06. > :44:10.have done anything and back to the old regime. At some point very soon
:44:10. > :44:15.it will all start up again and more people will be killed and more
:44:15. > :44:20.people will die. It is everybody's choice now. There is no backing
:44:20. > :44:24.down. The military have to go. Right, but of course the history of
:44:24. > :44:29.the country has been since 1952, they have been at the centre of
:44:29. > :44:32.power, in slightly different ways. So 60 years of their military
:44:32. > :44:39.mystery, I'm just wondering what you would expect them to do over
:44:39. > :44:47.the next month or two, that would persuade you to return home to wait
:44:47. > :44:51.for the elections? They need to hand over power, to a civilian body.
:44:51. > :44:55.Whether it is a civilian Government or whether it is a civilian
:44:55. > :44:58.presidential council, it is quite clear, really, that the names are
:44:58. > :45:01.thank are put forward, everybody knows what they are. There is
:45:01. > :45:05.absolutely no reason why they shouldn't do that tonight. There is
:45:05. > :45:09.no reason why they shouldn't do that tomorrow. With full powers.
:45:09. > :45:13.Then they should put themselves where they belong, the military
:45:13. > :45:17.should be at the service of the country, and they should work under
:45:17. > :45:21.a civilian Government. We need them because we don't have a police
:45:21. > :45:27.force at the moment. So we would need the military to redeem itself,
:45:27. > :45:31.if you like, by continuing, by starting to look after our security,
:45:31. > :45:37.until such a time as we can get a police force back working. That
:45:37. > :45:39.really is the only thing they can do. No rhetoric, no words. I'm
:45:39. > :45:43.sorry we are running right out of time. Thank you very much for
:45:43. > :45:46.joining us from Cairo. That's all from Newsnight tonight.
:45:46. > :45:52.Tomorrow night the boss of British Gas will be here live, with Jeremy,
:45:52. > :46:02.to debate the rising cost of energy bills, it might be worth turning
:46:02. > :46:25.
:46:25. > :46:28.It's chilly out there. In fact, a touch of frost developing across
:46:28. > :46:31.the southern half of the UK later on. Fog patches around too. Here
:46:31. > :46:35.the best of the sunshine through the day. Further north it will be
:46:35. > :46:40.cloudier, with rain around for Scotland and Northern Ireland. Mid-
:46:40. > :46:44.afternoon fine enough across most of the Midlands, a bit of patchy
:46:44. > :46:47.cloud, after the chilly start temperatures rising. The winds not
:46:47. > :46:51.strong, pleasant, a glorious November day across many southern
:46:51. > :46:54.counties of England, lots of blue sky with a crisp feel to things. Up
:46:54. > :47:01.across Wales there will be a gradual increase in cloud,
:47:01. > :47:03.particularly across more northern areas, maybe the odd spot of rain
:47:03. > :47:07.for Snowdonia. It will be windy afternoon across Northern Ireland,
:47:07. > :47:11.a lot of cloud, outbreaks of rain, particularly to the west of Belfast.
:47:11. > :47:15.Western parts of Scotland too will see some outbreaks of rain. To the
:47:15. > :47:19.east and the maint tains and later in the far north we should be dryer
:47:19. > :47:23.and brighter. A bit of a north- south split on Wednesday, with most
:47:23. > :47:27.of the rain across the north, things turning dryer for a time on
:47:28. > :47:31.Thursday, it will be a gusty wind. That will offset the mild
:47:31. > :47:35.temperatures. Further south mostly dry on Thursday, some sunshine,
:47:35. > :47:40.again temperatures some what higher than they will be on Wednesday.