:00:09. > :00:12.Will the map of Europe be redrawn by Christmas? According to George
:00:12. > :00:17.Osborne, the future of the British economy relies on the plan now
:00:17. > :00:21.being hatched in Paris and Berlin. A new treaty for a new Europe. But
:00:21. > :00:27.is anyone buying it? TRANSLATION: So, I say to you,
:00:28. > :00:35.Europe has to be rethought, rebuilt, there is an emergency. The world
:00:35. > :00:39.will not wait for Europe. Wel we will be discussing how the
:00:39. > :00:43.eurodrama will unfold, and whether this is the last chance before we
:00:43. > :00:49.go under the edge. Now we know big deficits will be
:00:49. > :00:53.with us long after the next election, how will our parties and
:00:53. > :00:59.political actors react. Tonight, we reveal how British
:00:59. > :01:03.technology, which can monitor your phone, e-mails and tweets, has been
:01:03. > :01:09.supplied to middle eastern regimes. The Syrian regime has access
:01:09. > :01:13.supplied by western companies, that enables them to follow those users
:01:13. > :01:18.and locate them and therefore arrest them.
:01:18. > :01:25.And Martin Scorsese on film, art and the politics that permeate his
:01:25. > :01:29.pictures. For me, Casino, for example, was a political film. The
:01:29. > :01:39.amount of excess, there is nothing that is never enough, until finally
:01:39. > :01:43.it explodes. Good evening. Maybe the eurozone
:01:43. > :01:49.will break up, said the governor of the Bank of England today. Maybe it
:01:49. > :01:52.will continue, but countries will default. The truth is, no-one knows.
:01:52. > :01:56.It was a particularly worrying sentiment from the governor, given
:01:56. > :02:00.the Chancellor, earlier this week, said Britain's economic future now
:02:00. > :02:04.depends on what happens across the water. Tonight in Paris, President
:02:04. > :02:09.Sarkozy began to set out yet another rescue plan. One that would
:02:09. > :02:19.involve a new treaty to overhaul and re-think Europe. But has it any
:02:19. > :02:22.
:02:22. > :02:26.chance of working? Paul Mason reports.
:02:26. > :02:30.There are, technically, just nine days left to bring financial order
:02:30. > :02:35.to Europe. By the time the EU's leaders meet, a week tomorrow, they
:02:36. > :02:41.need to have some kind of little piece of paper to wave, some plan,
:02:41. > :02:45.some undertaking. But E-day is looming, and no such undertaking
:02:45. > :02:51.his been given. We did get this, though. A speech
:02:51. > :02:56.from the man who could sort it out. The credible signal is needed to
:02:56. > :03:02.give ultimate assurance over the short-term. What I believe our
:03:02. > :03:07.economic and monetary union needs is a new fiscal compact. A
:03:07. > :03:11.fundamental restatement of the fiscal rules, together with a
:03:11. > :03:15.mutual fiscal commitments. That means putting Brussels, Berlin and
:03:15. > :03:19.maybe Paris in charge of everybody else's budget, leaving eurozone
:03:19. > :03:23.voters to decide what colour ties the politicians doing their bidding
:03:23. > :03:27.will wear. Here's the problem, peripheral Europe is effectively
:03:27. > :03:32.bust, the money the rest of Europe raised to bail them out is not
:03:32. > :03:40.enough. And, the ECB could sort it by printing money and lending it,
:03:40. > :03:44.but it won't, that is the problem. And so tonight, a cunning new plan
:03:44. > :03:54.from President Sarkozy. Well not a plan, but the promise of plan on
:03:54. > :03:56.
:03:56. > :04:01.Monday. It will involve treaty changes. TRANSLATION: France and
:04:01. > :04:06.Germany, after so many tragedies, decide to unite their destiny, to
:04:06. > :04:10.look towards the future together. My dear compatriots, to backtrack
:04:10. > :04:14.on this strategy would be absolutely unforgivable. Germany
:04:14. > :04:19.and France separated would result in the whole of Europe being
:04:19. > :04:23.separated and weakened. Under the emerging plan, eurocountries will
:04:23. > :04:28.hand powers to Brussels to oversee national budgets, to intervene and
:04:28. > :04:32.cancel them where needed to stay within the rules. Then, and only
:04:33. > :04:37.then, will the Germans allow the ECB to start buying the debts of
:04:37. > :04:42.the distressed south. Ultimately, that would lead to pooling Europe's
:04:43. > :04:47.debts in called eurobonds, a sticking point with the Germans up
:04:47. > :04:53.to now. In Nicolas Sarkozy's speech tonight, we have a feeling that
:04:54. > :04:56.perhaps if France is willing to go towards a new treaty, which is the
:04:56. > :05:03.word Nicolas Sarkozy used in his speech, perhaps it means that
:05:03. > :05:07.Germany is going towards the creation of eurobonds. Which today
:05:07. > :05:10.looks a something that is inevitable, at least from France.
:05:10. > :05:15.There is a credit crunch happening in Europe's banks, that creates two
:05:15. > :05:20.dangers for Britain. One, economic slowdown, because that is our
:05:20. > :05:25.export market, two, contagion, to our banks. The Bank of England
:05:25. > :05:30.revealed today that RBS is heavily exposed to bank debts in the
:05:30. > :05:34.troubled south of Europe to the tune of 30% of its core capital.
:05:34. > :05:38.Add in the exposures to the debts of troubled countries, and 83% of
:05:38. > :05:42.the core capital of Britain's big four banks is at risk. Of course,
:05:42. > :05:46.that's only a problem if there is a credit crunch. You can see signs of
:05:46. > :05:50.a credit crunch already in the euro area, I don't think that is begun
:05:50. > :05:54.yet, but you can see how it would come through here, if funding costs
:05:54. > :05:59.were to continue to be as high as they are. Now they are working on
:05:59. > :06:04.contingency plans for a eurobreak up, what kind of event are they
:06:04. > :06:10.planning for? Maybe it won't break up, maybe it will in various forms.
:06:10. > :06:15.Maybe there will be questions of default. None of us know. It is no
:06:15. > :06:19.sense to say there is a single one event in which we have to make
:06:19. > :06:23.contingencies. While those in power contemplate Armageddon, people in
:06:23. > :06:26.the high streets, here and across Europe, have to sense the gloomy
:06:26. > :06:31.atmosphere and hope for the best. The best might have to be a large
:06:31. > :06:37.amount of money. It is still possible they will come up with the
:06:37. > :06:42.called bazooka mark II, about 300 billion euros from the IMF, 250
:06:42. > :06:45.billion from the EU stability fund, and maybe 160 billion from the
:06:45. > :06:49.European Central Bank itself. Analysts believe it is this, money
:06:49. > :06:53.cobbled together from wherever you can, that has the best chance of
:06:53. > :06:57.ending the crisis. But all ending the crisis means, this time, is
:06:57. > :07:00.putting it off for a year, or maybe two.
:07:01. > :07:05.Tomorrow David Cameron heads for Paris, he has pledged to do what he
:07:05. > :07:11.can. The problem is, that's not much, except stick to the old
:07:11. > :07:16.addage, keep calm, and carry on cutting. Paul Mason, to peer
:07:16. > :07:19.through the economic gloom is Ken Rogoff, who wrote the book on debt,
:07:19. > :07:23.quoted by George Osborne, to justify his economic strategy, Lord
:07:23. > :07:27.Lamont, once Chancellor himself, of course, and by Gillian Tett of the
:07:27. > :07:32.Financial Times, who is in New York. First of all, Ken Rogoff, a hedge
:07:32. > :07:36.fund manager said, was he worried? He wasn't just worried as a hedge
:07:36. > :07:40.fund manager, he was worried as a father what was happening. We don't
:07:40. > :07:45.have to worry about his own personal finance, how long do you
:07:45. > :07:50.think Merkel and Sarkozy have got to sort this out? Let's put it this
:07:50. > :07:54.way, they can make things blow up really quickly, but I don't think
:07:54. > :07:58.they can fix things really fast. The discussion here is very, very
:07:58. > :08:02.simple, the Germans don't want to put water into a leaky bucket. It
:08:02. > :08:06.is not just a matter of having a big bazooka, it is not just a
:08:06. > :08:10.matter of having enough this time, they need a system so it doesn't
:08:10. > :08:14.just keep going. Germany is being asked, essentially, to take on a
:08:14. > :08:22.lot of debt, and open-ended guarantee, in return for handshake
:08:22. > :08:26.from the periphery of Europe. It is a very, very delicate deal. Gillian
:08:26. > :08:31.Tett, the Germans don't want to put water into leaky bucket, if it
:08:31. > :08:36.could be fibgsd that would be better, this is this super-- fixed
:08:36. > :08:41.that would be better, this is where you have this superdeal with
:08:41. > :08:44.fingers in every pie in Europe. There is a game of brinkmanship,
:08:44. > :08:47.and Angela Merkel is taking it to the brink. The key thing to
:08:47. > :08:51.understand is what the central banks did on Wednesday in terms of
:08:51. > :08:56.their joint arrangements, is really provide a breathing space for the
:08:56. > :08:59.next eight or nine days, for the eurozone leaders to get their act
:08:59. > :09:04.together. The brilliant irony is the Central Bankers around the
:09:04. > :09:07.world are in some ways quite a co- ordinated bunch, they understand
:09:07. > :09:10.each other and operate together smoothly. The problem is, it is
:09:10. > :09:14.still not clear if you have a deal on the table. There is real concern
:09:14. > :09:17.in the US, where I'm sitting, if they don't get their act together
:09:17. > :09:21.in seven days, they will have missed their last, best chance.
:09:21. > :09:23.What does it look like from your position, Lord Lamont, first of all,
:09:23. > :09:27.before we talk about David Cameron's reaction to all of this,
:09:27. > :09:31.does it looks a if a deal could be on the table? From what has been
:09:31. > :09:34.outlined in the programme, it sounds as if it is going to be more
:09:34. > :09:37.supervision of national budgets, peer group pressure, with a little
:09:37. > :09:41.bit more teeth, a bit more discipline. To be honest, I don't
:09:41. > :09:45.think that would really work, I'm rather surprised that the
:09:45. > :09:51.suggestion is, that if they can get more control of other country's
:09:51. > :09:58.budgets, the ECB would then be asked to buy the bonds of these
:09:58. > :10:01.peripheral countries. I personallyam -- personally am
:10:01. > :10:05.rather surprised Germany would accept this. Let's talk about the
:10:05. > :10:09.British response, the idea there would be a new treaty, do you think
:10:10. > :10:14.that David Cameron's position would be that in order to get this new
:10:15. > :10:20.treaty through, he would be prepared to wave it through or --
:10:20. > :10:25.wave it through, or looking for differences in Working Time
:10:25. > :10:28.Directives or is it the wrong time to make those arguments? If the
:10:28. > :10:33.provisions don't affect Britain, it would be reasonable to say we would
:10:33. > :10:38.allow them to go through. It would be ridiculous to call a referendum
:10:38. > :10:42.in Britain over something that didn't affect us. He has to
:10:42. > :10:47.absolutely ensure any new treaty changes can't, in some indirect way,
:10:47. > :10:49.be used against British interests, be used as protection. Be used to
:10:49. > :10:53.discriminate against the British financial services industry. He has
:10:53. > :10:56.to be absolutely sure about that. Obviously the financial
:10:56. > :11:00.transactions tax has to be something that, if it ever comes
:11:00. > :11:06.into existence, does not have any effect on Britain. Ken Rogoff, are
:11:06. > :11:11.you as pessimistic as Lord Lamont, as to whether this supervisory
:11:11. > :11:15.structure would actually work, nation-to-nation? I agree entirely
:11:15. > :11:19.with Lord Lamont, that it is not going to work, at least not for
:11:19. > :11:22.years and years. The Maastricht Treaty didn't really work, that was
:11:22. > :11:28.a treaty. The Maastricht Treaty the French and the Germans just
:11:28. > :11:31.violated it, they won't over the 60% rule, Tewin suited them. What
:11:31. > :11:35.they realise -- when it suited them, they realised there wasn't a lot
:11:35. > :11:40.they could do about it. There is basically a handshake, this isn't a
:11:40. > :11:43.treaty, even if it was a treaty, what are the ramifications. You
:11:43. > :11:46.really need more of a political union. It is not enough just to
:11:46. > :11:49.talk about superadvising national budgets. You have to have a
:11:49. > :11:54.Treasury that has huge taxation power, you have to transfer a lot
:11:54. > :11:58.of power to the centre, or at least lay out a road map where that will
:11:58. > :12:02.happen. Do you agree with that? There has to be something, a much
:12:02. > :12:05.bigger idea than what has been put forward just now, Gillian Tett?
:12:05. > :12:09.think the problem right now, we have been up and down this hill so
:12:09. > :12:15.many times in the eurozone in the last six months, the trust has
:12:15. > :12:18.really shattered. People, as Ken says, doesn't trust a handshake,
:12:18. > :12:22.but want tangible action. What people are looking for, in terplgs
:12:22. > :12:26.of creating a union that work -- terms of creating a union that
:12:26. > :12:29.works, is some element of fiscal union and transfers, be it joint
:12:29. > :12:33.eurobonds or something like that t will be a question of whether they
:12:33. > :12:38.can come up with something tangible that will matter in the next eight
:12:38. > :12:41.days. A giant Treasury, a big fiscal union? When Mrs Merkel uses
:12:41. > :12:44.the phrase "fiscal union", she means something completely
:12:44. > :12:48.different, she doesn't mean a European Treasury, or European
:12:48. > :12:51.minister of finance, she just means more supervision of other country's
:12:51. > :12:55.budgets, with Germany in a leading position. But, frankly, that is
:12:55. > :13:01.more or less what we have had, and when you have the criminals as the
:13:01. > :13:05.jury, you don't get very far. Inevitably, will the shape of
:13:05. > :13:08.Europe change, there will be defaults, will countries drop out
:13:08. > :13:12.of the eurozone in order to keep the northern centre holding?
:13:12. > :13:16.think we have moved into more dangerous territory, because you
:13:16. > :13:21.are now, for the first time, getting people openly talking about
:13:21. > :13:27.the shape of the eurozone altering, about individual countries dropping
:13:27. > :13:30.out, about the possibility of the whole thing imploding. This is
:13:30. > :13:34.quite unusual for people openly to be discussing this. We had that at
:13:34. > :13:38.the Cannes summit, when the for the first time, having denied Greece
:13:38. > :13:41.could ever leave the euro, people suddenly said, yes, if Greece
:13:41. > :13:46.doesn't want to abide by the rules, it may have to be chucked out.
:13:47. > :13:54.Previously they said that was unthinkable. Ken Rogoff, in your
:13:54. > :14:03.view, will there be 19 countries in the eurozone after the new year, or
:14:03. > :14:08.will we see a much smaller eurozone s that inevitable? I think it will
:14:08. > :14:13.have to get smaller before it gets bigger. I don't see how they can
:14:13. > :14:17.have a real fiscal union, more political union, without looking
:14:17. > :14:21.hard at the current membership, and realising some of the countries,
:14:21. > :14:24.Greece is the obvious one, but I think there are others, Portugal,
:14:24. > :14:29.they are really ready to be in that. What worries me about what they are
:14:29. > :14:33.doing, they seem to be making this handshake as if they don't have to
:14:33. > :14:39.make those decisions. Then it is hopeless, Italy is at least an
:14:39. > :14:43.interesting case. You might be able to keep Italy in, Greece has
:14:44. > :14:47.reached absurdity. Gillian Tett, as you said, we have been marched up
:14:47. > :14:51.and down the hill. We heard Mervyn King, hearing about the nine days
:14:51. > :14:59.ahead. Will this just be kicked forward again, or does this
:14:59. > :15:02.actually have to be the real crunch? The onus is we -- the
:15:02. > :15:05.answer is we just don't know. One of my reporters went ahead to a
:15:05. > :15:08.conference in New York, of emerging market investors from around the
:15:08. > :15:12.world. The question was asked of the audience, how many of you think
:15:12. > :15:16.the eurozone will be together, in its current form, with all 17
:15:16. > :15:22.members in a year's time, 80% of the audience said they didn't think
:15:22. > :15:29.it would hang together. That is the indication of the scepticism and
:15:29. > :15:33.cynicism in the markets. If you, from what Lord Lamont said about
:15:33. > :15:36.what Angela Merkel thinks fiscal union is, they think everyone needs
:15:36. > :15:40.to be German right now, and the rest of the world is saying it
:15:40. > :15:44.won't happen. We are in the middle of a decade of economic pain,
:15:44. > :15:49.living standards are dropping, the gulf between the rich and poor yawn,
:15:49. > :15:53.and the structural deficit, George Osborne admits, will be with us
:15:53. > :16:00.through the next election. The bombshell, how will the political
:16:00. > :16:03.debate change, and are our politicians up to the challenge? As
:16:03. > :16:06.the dust settled on the Autumn Statement, what became clear is
:16:06. > :16:10.that the Conservative attempt to demonstrate the support for women,
:16:11. > :16:16.is hardly going smoothly. It is women, overwhelmingly, who will be
:16:16. > :16:21.hit by the Chancellor's decision to snatch back �110 a year, promised
:16:21. > :16:27.to many of Britain's poorest families. How could the Liberal
:16:27. > :16:30.Democrats show themselves as distinct from the Tories, amidst
:16:30. > :16:34.the prognosis of economic doom beyond the next election. Danny
:16:34. > :16:38.Alexander said it himself on Tuesday's Newsnight. You are going
:16:38. > :16:42.into the next election, promising further billions of pounds in cuts
:16:42. > :16:47.and public spending. That is what you are going to say in your
:16:47. > :16:51.manifesto in the next election. afraid so. Senior Liberal Democrats
:16:51. > :17:01.Newsnight spoke to today, have intimated their fears for the
:17:01. > :17:12.
:17:12. > :17:16.party's distinctiveness. One senior Does the public believe that Labour
:17:16. > :17:21.has a different and credible economic script? When the task of
:17:21. > :17:27.the next Government will be to curb a still large deficit. The polls
:17:28. > :17:34.suggest that people think things would be even worse under Labour.
:17:34. > :17:38.How are the politicians going to deal with this future for political
:17:38. > :17:45.insiders, I'm joined by Danny Finkelstein of the Times, and once
:17:45. > :17:50.of Conservative Central Office, Tony McNulty, and Edward hare sis
:17:50. > :17:54.former ld MP. The idea we are all in this glrb Liberal Democrat MP.
:17:54. > :17:59.The idea we are all in this together, with the Conservatives
:17:59. > :18:02.thinking about women and the idea of that, with the fewer public
:18:02. > :18:08.sector workers, the idea that violent and mental issues won't be
:18:08. > :18:11.at the fore any more. It is back to the barricades. There will be
:18:11. > :18:14.massive distributional issues making cuts of that kind. Making
:18:14. > :18:18.cuts in public spending will come from people who depend on spending
:18:18. > :18:21.more or who work in the public sector, that is very hard. For
:18:21. > :18:25.people who are Conservative modernisers it is very difficult.
:18:26. > :18:32.Isn't the problem with this, David Cameron set himself out to be the
:18:32. > :18:35.moderniser, that was the USP, and here you have it, the retrenchment
:18:35. > :18:40.again, the language doesn't sell that in any kind of positive way,
:18:40. > :18:43.does it? It is very, very difficult. The problem for all political
:18:43. > :18:47.parties, is the next election will be one in which you are not looking
:18:47. > :18:51.at how do you spend the money in the future, you are looking at how
:18:51. > :18:55.to make more cuts, how do you make a little bit less and a bit more.
:18:55. > :19:00.You have Steve Hilton not believing in climate change any more? I don't
:19:00. > :19:05.know about that. This leaves a problem for the Liberal Democrats,
:19:05. > :19:10.Evan Harris, you are tied in a sense to the Conservatives' coat
:19:10. > :19:13.tails, Danny Alexander himself said, you go into the next election with
:19:14. > :19:17.the deficit not obliterated, having to promote the same level of cuts.
:19:17. > :19:21.The problem that exists for Conservative modernisers is even
:19:21. > :19:25.greater for Liberal Democrats, that is why I think, it is quite clear
:19:25. > :19:29.when you make cuts, as most Liberal Democrats accept has to be done, as
:19:29. > :19:32.Danny said, it will affect people who use public services the most.
:19:32. > :19:36.That is why I think Liberal Democrats will now concentrate on
:19:36. > :19:43.stopping story tax cuts for better- off people, the 50p rate must stay.
:19:43. > :19:47.There must be no question of there being inheritance tax cuts, things
:19:47. > :19:51.like that will be well defined. has to be something more creative,
:19:51. > :19:55.otherwise you seem joined at the hip? There will be differenciation,
:19:55. > :19:57.more on those issues, they become even more important. How do the
:19:57. > :20:01.Liberal Democrats do that? I think actually there is a position for
:20:01. > :20:07.the Liberal Democrats, it is on distributional issues. I think the
:20:07. > :20:13.Tories will obviously try to close it down, they won't go after the
:20:13. > :20:16.50p or the in herance tax, that gives them a problem -- inheritance
:20:16. > :20:19.tax, and that gives them a problem with their base. The Liberal
:20:19. > :20:22.Democrats believe in redistribution and they can argue about the
:20:22. > :20:26.fairness of the measures and moderate them. If we are
:20:26. > :20:31.Conservative fiscal, it is in the coalition, it is not in the next
:20:31. > :20:41.manifest at the moment that is why I think Danny Alexander did get it
:20:41. > :20:42.
:20:42. > :20:47.wrong. If you say your people are in the public sector, will you get
:20:47. > :20:52.the vote next time round with this platform? Danny Alexander nor Nick
:20:52. > :20:56.Clegg writes the manifesto, you can call them the architect, he was
:20:56. > :21:00.chairman of the body that wrote it, he didn't win many of those battles.
:21:00. > :21:02.What I have been told today, and you said this in the introduction,
:21:03. > :21:07.rightly, when he said the Liberal Democrats would go into the
:21:07. > :21:10.election with, not just more cuts set out, which may be the case, but
:21:10. > :21:16.a specific agreed cuts with another party. That is not going to happen,
:21:16. > :21:19.because we are committed to being independent of the other parties.
:21:19. > :21:24.Let's talk about that with Tony McNulty, you are independent of
:21:24. > :21:27.both parties. Can we see a position, or would it just be so beyond the
:21:27. > :21:32.pale, that Labour could do a deal with the Liberal Democrats? I think
:21:32. > :21:36.this week has been seismic in terms of politics for some of the reasons
:21:36. > :21:45.suggested. The notion that the next election, whatever the outcome, if
:21:45. > :21:52.it is not a majority Labour Government, that we do deals with
:21:52. > :21:58.Huhne and others that is gone. That is a question for the Liberal
:21:58. > :22:04.Democrats. They are getting rid of four of their beasts? Let's see if
:22:04. > :22:10.they get four seats. What about the Labour Party? We have to put
:22:10. > :22:14.ourselves in the polls. The redistribution we have seen that
:22:14. > :22:18.the liberals are endorsed have been from the poorest to the richest.
:22:18. > :22:22.The new cuts announced have been much more severe on the bottom
:22:22. > :22:26.percentage than higher. Labour has some flexibility. I don't think the
:22:26. > :22:36.Liberal Democrats have, you can't issue a red book with an as tricks
:22:36. > :22:37.
:22:37. > :22:41.that said only subject to the agreement of the Liberal Democrats,
:22:41. > :22:44.The Labour Party has a degree of flexibility, you still have to
:22:44. > :22:47.commit to vast cuts and explain, roughly speaking, where they come
:22:47. > :22:52.from. There may be some flexibility for slowing down the cuts, at that
:22:52. > :22:59.point, you won't be able to cancel them all. You will have to fight
:22:59. > :23:06.that on the election. How will Labour get its credibility back,
:23:06. > :23:10.will Ed Balls say slash, cut, slash, cut? They have to say it now, not
:23:10. > :23:15.six months down the road towards the next election. The policy of
:23:15. > :23:19.Labour has not to come forward with the big decisions because they see
:23:19. > :23:23.it as foolish? They don't have to go into the detail, Cameron learned
:23:23. > :23:28.that from the last election. They must get to stage where Labour's
:23:28. > :23:33.economic narrative become as real one. Part of that is challenging
:23:33. > :23:38.the analysis so far. David Miliband started that last night with a good
:23:38. > :23:42.speech. With the Labour Party needs to recover, it is almost as
:23:42. > :23:46.tempting as being tribunal and saying we don't do a -- tribal and
:23:46. > :23:49.saying we don't do a deal. Let him speak? You have this problem, there
:23:49. > :23:53.are plenty of people in the Labour Party who think if the economy
:23:53. > :23:58.tanks or doesn't improve or flatlines Labour won't need to
:23:58. > :24:01.regain credibility. That is tempting, just as it is tempting to
:24:01. > :24:05.personalise politics and say whatever the merits after the next
:24:05. > :24:08.election of getting power, we are not going to deal with individuals,
:24:08. > :24:12.I don't think your leader take that is same view.
:24:12. > :24:16.What I think we are missing a big point, that is all the parties are
:24:16. > :24:20.going to face something that nobody has faced in this country ever,
:24:20. > :24:24.that is we simply not going to be able to afford the state, in the
:24:24. > :24:27.way that we have been able to afford it in the past. We are all
:24:27. > :24:30.going to have to propose new ways of doing things, on a very grand
:24:30. > :24:34.scale. What we have learned is the economy is far less wealthy. So
:24:34. > :24:37.this changes not just this kind of politics, the politics we have
:24:37. > :24:42.talked about, but much more fundamental things. I think there
:24:42. > :24:44.is room for the superrich to pay more, that might well be a dividing
:24:44. > :24:49.line. I'm not convinced that those in the Liberal Democrats will take
:24:49. > :24:52.that view and win out. That will be a battle. We will want to
:24:52. > :24:57.differentiate ourselves, even more than we have in the past. And I
:24:57. > :25:00.don't accept this idea that the red book writes the manifesto, that is
:25:00. > :25:04.absolutely wrong. I don't think Nick Clegg agreed with what Danny
:25:04. > :25:08.Alexander said on this programme. We can explore this, even further
:25:08. > :25:12.in weeks to come and months to come. If everybody is going to be
:25:12. > :25:15.batoning down the hatchs in the economy and there is no room for
:25:15. > :25:18.manoeuvre. In what way does politics play out, what do people
:25:18. > :25:22.want from politicians they are not getting now? First of all, everyone
:25:22. > :25:26.knows the situation is very, very grim. They don't expect politicians
:25:26. > :25:30.to solve the problems immediately, but they do expect some hope at the
:25:30. > :25:34.end of the day. The problem will be, not what politicians say, but
:25:34. > :25:37.simply the actual reduction in people's real living standards, for
:25:37. > :25:41.people who don't earn very much. That will be very difficult for the
:25:41. > :25:45.Government. The problem for Labour is, it weakens them because they
:25:45. > :25:51.will fight an election where their narrative is let's borrow some more
:25:51. > :25:55.in order to borrow less. Such an unconvincing line that nobody will
:25:55. > :25:59.believe. The line is to let's borrow more as a result of failure,
:25:59. > :26:04.that can't be right either. Syria is now in state of civil war, a UN
:26:04. > :26:09.official said today, it is estimated more than 4,000 people
:26:09. > :26:12.have been killed by pro-Government forces since March, who is
:26:12. > :26:16.supplying President Assad and other repressive regimes with the
:26:16. > :26:18.technology to hunt down the dissenters. An investigation by
:26:18. > :26:22.Newsnight and the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, has found
:26:22. > :26:26.a British company, based in Oxfordshire, has been implicated in
:26:26. > :26:31.the sale of state-of-the-art technology to Syria. It is not the
:26:31. > :26:39.only British company with a role in allowing despotic regimes to access
:26:39. > :26:47.technologies to help them spy on their sit ens.
:26:47. > :26:52.-- citizens. The Arab Spring, Egypt, Libya, now Syria. Popular uprisings,
:26:52. > :27:00.fuelled by new technology. Co- ordinated using mobile phones, the
:27:00. > :27:06.Internet, texts and tweets. These pictures captured last week
:27:06. > :27:10.from Syria, spread around the globe, on the World Wide Web. But now, the
:27:10. > :27:18.very technologies that helped spark these revolutions are being used to
:27:18. > :27:20.crush them. Technology of this kind can be every bit as lethal as the
:27:20. > :27:30.bullets directly sold by a munitions company, or armments
:27:30. > :27:35.quartermastre. Brighton beach, on the Sussex coast,
:27:35. > :27:39.an unlikely venue to host a hub of dissent. But the current Syrian
:27:39. > :27:48.popular uprising is organised on an international scale. Here in
:27:48. > :27:53.Brighton, mam mam plays his party. The Arab Spring has turned into
:27:53. > :27:58.winter in Syria, we have 20,000 people in prison, 4,500 people are
:27:58. > :28:04.dead and people are struggling on daily basis. He has no permanent
:28:04. > :28:08.address. He flits from place-to- place, using friends' address,
:28:08. > :28:11.using their internet connections, laptops and computers, fearful he's
:28:11. > :28:19.being monitored by the Syrian Security Services, here on British
:28:19. > :28:23.soil. He maintains daily contact with
:28:23. > :28:27.friends and colleagues, in Syria. Helping to desem raitate
:28:27. > :28:31.information about developments in - - deseminate information about
:28:31. > :28:35.developments in his country. And such has been their success, that
:28:35. > :28:37.even the cyberactivists, operating behind closed doors, those
:28:37. > :28:42.uploading images of the demonstrations, are now being
:28:42. > :28:48.targeted too. The people who are usually using
:28:48. > :28:52.the Internet to communicate with us are at more risk being arrested by
:28:53. > :28:57.the regime than people on the streets. This is because we believe
:28:58. > :29:01.that the Syrian regime, and we have evidence for that, that the Syrian
:29:01. > :29:07.regime has access to software supplied by western countries, that
:29:07. > :29:14.enables them to follow those users, and locate them. How many people do
:29:14. > :29:22.you personally know of who have been actively targeted by the
:29:22. > :29:26.state? Since May, and early July, I know of about 40-50 people, I went
:29:26. > :29:30.to school with when I was back in Syria, they have been arrested and
:29:30. > :29:35.we believe they have been arrested as a result of the new technology
:29:35. > :29:39.and software that the Syrian regime is using to target activists.
:29:39. > :29:46.Newsnight has learned that Syria has been provided with technology,
:29:46. > :29:52.produced by the British-owned company, Sophos. This is its sales
:29:52. > :29:57.pitch. Access to retain telecomdata, has become an important tool for
:29:57. > :30:03.law enforcement and Intelligence Services in their fight against
:30:03. > :30:07.Toryism. We asked Sophos for -- Terrorism. We asked Sophos for an
:30:07. > :30:14.interview. They confirmed that it supplied technology to an Italian
:30:14. > :30:20.company last year, they knew it was part of a bigger contract with
:30:20. > :30:23.Syria. We don't monitor data, that is done within the
:30:23. > :30:27.telecommunications software. The software is designed so when data
:30:27. > :30:32.is requested by police forces can be safely be passed to the police
:30:32. > :30:36.force. But you are selling it to nation states?, you are providing
:30:36. > :30:40.it to nation states where the police force don't have a
:30:40. > :30:45.particularly good track record, if we look at Syria there are problems
:30:45. > :30:51.for many years? As a company we ensure, whoever we sell to, we
:30:51. > :30:53.ensure we follow EU regulations and guidelines. Our customers are
:30:53. > :30:58.telecommunications companies. say you follow the letter of the
:30:58. > :31:04.law, isn't there a moral responsibility? Yeah, when we see
:31:04. > :31:07.situations like Syria, absolutely, we are concerned, and we will take
:31:07. > :31:12.further steps, the moral responsibility. We don't have the
:31:13. > :31:21.benefit of hindsight to look back and remove our software where it
:31:21. > :31:25.has been sold. Steve Mumford admits Sophos doesn't know if its product
:31:25. > :31:32.has been sold to other authoritarian regimes. We showed
:31:32. > :31:37.him the interview with Mahmood. have evidence that the Syrian
:31:37. > :31:42.regime has access to software supplied by western companies, that
:31:42. > :31:48.enables them to follow those users and locate them. Will you think
:31:48. > :31:53.hard about who you supply in the future? First of all, I think, from
:31:53. > :31:56.what I hear on this report, none of our software would be involved in
:31:57. > :32:04.that. You would not need our software to do the tracking down
:32:04. > :32:08.and the finding of people. Secondly, absolutely, when we see activities
:32:08. > :32:12.like this, we absolutely will stop doing business with anyone
:32:12. > :32:20.contributing to this. He agreed there was a need for tighter
:32:20. > :32:25.regulation of the industry. industry which now sells equipment
:32:25. > :32:29.to dictators and democracies alike. Today WikiLeaks, in conjunction
:32:29. > :32:34.with Privacy International, launched a database detailing the
:32:34. > :32:37.scale of the electronics surveillance industry. It is worth
:32:37. > :32:43.surveillance industry. It is worth more than 3 billion a year, with
:32:43. > :32:48.more than 160 companies in 25 countries. Most pariah states don't
:32:48. > :32:50.have the technology base to develop good surveillance software. The
:32:50. > :32:54.Chinese can, I would be very surprised if countries like Syria
:32:55. > :32:58.could. If you are the secret police in Syria, you are naturally going
:32:58. > :33:05.to buy your surveillance software from Britain or France, or America
:33:05. > :33:09.or Italy or wherever you can get it. It is not that hard to find. This
:33:09. > :33:15.is the Milipol International Trade Fair held in Paris a few weeks ago.
:33:15. > :33:19.We went along. Amid the sniper rifles, machine guns, weapons and
:33:19. > :33:23.military hardware up for sale. An entire section was devoted to
:33:23. > :33:27.surveillance. I spoke with one salesman, I asked him if he was at
:33:27. > :33:32.all concerned about how his company's technology might be used
:33:32. > :33:36.by certain regimes. This is a direct quote. "We have no control
:33:36. > :33:40.over what they will do, targeting, we can't have any control on that,
:33:40. > :33:44.the person who may be bad for you, may not be bad for me. So we can't
:33:44. > :33:51.judge that. We're just providing the technology for finding people
:33:51. > :33:54.who are of concern to a particular nation." We reject the view that
:33:54. > :33:58.Government's oppression of the internet, phone networks and social
:33:58. > :34:03.media at times of unrest is acceptable. Britain will always be
:34:03. > :34:09.on the side of people aspiring for political and economic freedom. In
:34:09. > :34:15.the Middle East and around the world. Laudible sentiments from
:34:15. > :34:18.Foreign Secretary, William Hague, but actions speak louder than words.
:34:18. > :34:21.Newsnight, and the Bureau of Investigative Journalism, have been
:34:21. > :34:27.looking at the role of UK-based companies, exporting state-of-the-
:34:27. > :34:31.art technology, which can be put to use by questionable regimes.
:34:31. > :34:39.ThorpeGlen, Suffolk, said to have sold tracking and monitoring
:34:39. > :34:43.technology to Indonesia. Gamma Group, Andover Hampshire, via a
:34:43. > :34:47.third party, offered monitoring technology to President Mubarak's
:34:47. > :34:51.regime in Egypt. Hidden Technology Systems Limited, Essex, sold
:34:51. > :35:00.tracking devices to Saudi Arabia, who, it says, wanted to buy the
:35:00. > :35:07.best of British. And, Creativity Software, Kingston upon Thames,
:35:07. > :35:13.Surrey, sold tracking technology to a mobile phone tracking network in
:35:13. > :35:17.Iran. It is this involvement with Iran that has prompted concern from
:35:18. > :35:22.leading politicians. The crossbench peer Lord Alton has asked dozens of
:35:22. > :35:26.questions in the House of Lords. He cites the case of an Iranian
:35:26. > :35:30.journalist tortured in jail. He was subjected not only to physical
:35:30. > :35:34.abuse, but they detailed all of the conversation that is he had, and
:35:34. > :35:37.they were able to say whom he had met as a result of using technology
:35:37. > :35:40.which had been sold to the Iranian regime. My concern is, that it is
:35:40. > :35:44.not just Iran, but throughout the whole of the region, that we have
:35:45. > :35:49.been aiding and abetting, the very despots that democracy activists
:35:49. > :35:54.and human rights campaigners have been trying to replace through the
:35:54. > :35:58.Arab Spring. The details of Creativity Software's deal with
:35:58. > :36:04.Iran are not known. Through Lord Alton's persistent questioning, it
:36:04. > :36:07.has emerged it had a stamp of approval through GCHQ. I find it
:36:07. > :36:12.really extraordinary that in many to a question I tabled, that the
:36:12. > :36:17.Government have conceded that an agency, operating out of GCHQ, held
:36:17. > :36:21.a meeting with Creativity Software, and they discussed the dual
:36:21. > :36:26.application of this technology, and then nothing at all was done to
:36:26. > :36:30.deter the export of technology, that could be used to abuse humam
:36:30. > :36:34.rights activists, to arrest democracy activists and to lead to
:36:34. > :36:39.people being tortured in Iranian prisons. We contacted all of the
:36:39. > :36:46.companies named in our investigation. Creativity Software,
:36:46. > :36:51.confirmed its commercial engagments started in 200 9, it says it wasn't
:36:51. > :36:57.deployed until 2011. It says any connection with alleged human
:36:57. > :37:01.rights abuses is clearly erroneous. Hidden Technology, confirmed is
:37:01. > :37:07.supplied tracking technology to Saudi Arabia. ThorpeGlen, we made
:37:07. > :37:10.repeated requests for comments, it is yet to reply. Gamma Group, it
:37:10. > :37:16.said in statement that it did not supply a specific tracking
:37:16. > :37:22.technology to Egypt. Sophos say the deal with Syria has
:37:22. > :37:27.now been terminated. It and its Italian business partner said the
:37:27. > :37:31.system was installed but not operational. As the protests in
:37:31. > :37:35.Syria continue, cyberactivists are looking at new ways to avoid
:37:35. > :37:38.detection, fully aware that a growing number of western companies
:37:38. > :37:43.are successfully selling monitoring and tracking technology to whoever
:37:43. > :37:46.is prepared to pay. No Government minister was
:37:47. > :37:56.available to speak to us about the sale of British technology abroad.
:37:57. > :38:25.
:38:25. > :38:28.Machismo, religion, redemption, Martin Scorsese's films from Taxi
:38:28. > :38:33.Driver, Mean Streets and Raging Bull, have shed light on all the
:38:33. > :38:38.darkest places, now he has come out with Hugo, a family film, and a
:38:38. > :38:42.celebration of moving pictures in 3D, no less, this week Scorcese was
:38:42. > :38:46.in London and met Peter Marshall to talk about movies, music, in what
:38:47. > :38:51.he considers to be his major political work, you may be
:38:51. > :38:55.surprised by his answer. The master on set and in his
:38:55. > :38:59.element. Martin Scorsese's first family film, Hugo, honours the
:38:59. > :39:03.history of cinema itself. With a British cast, homage is paid to the
:39:03. > :39:10.pioneers that brought, what the director calls, the magic, into his
:39:10. > :39:15.life. The first thing that came to mind, or the feeling, was being
:39:15. > :39:19.always, more or less, streeted as an invalid as a child, because of
:39:19. > :39:25.the asthma I had for so many years. You had asthma? Yes, from the age
:39:25. > :39:31.of three on. Being kept away from sports, nature, anything green, and
:39:31. > :39:34.certainly animals, and no running, no hysterical laughter, and so I
:39:34. > :39:40.was in the movie theatres a lot. Whatever I couldn't do or be a part
:39:40. > :39:46.of, in the life around me, some how in the imagination, and in the
:39:46. > :39:52.spirit of the cinema, I experienced it. I shared it with my father,
:39:52. > :39:57.mainly, in the early days. The message from Hugo, in ultra
:39:57. > :40:02.modern 3D is for getting the past only kills the present. Kingsley is
:40:02. > :40:05.the great director, now reduced to running a toy shop, his film work
:40:05. > :40:13.disregarded, as the movies have moved on. History, says Scorcese,
:40:13. > :40:17.is the key to understanding. are a human encliek peedia! I saw,
:40:17. > :40:20.I was able to see many of these films at the time, when I was home
:40:20. > :40:26.alone, waiting for my parents to come back from work, there was a
:40:26. > :40:33.television set. Jean Cocteau, the basic American films and British
:40:33. > :40:38.films. The British cinema is a very important to me from 1945 on.
:40:38. > :40:47.Scorcese's own place in film history is assured. From Taxi
:40:47. > :40:53.Driver to Raging Bull, and then, into the new century, an Oscar for
:40:53. > :40:57.The Departed, these days his music documentaries are matching the
:40:57. > :41:01.success. If I had the ability to compose and play music, that is
:41:01. > :41:05.where I would have found myself, in a sense, expressing myself. I think
:41:05. > :41:09.music in its basic form is a pure form. You bring them together and
:41:09. > :41:14.make them work together in way which seems to enhance both? Film
:41:14. > :41:19.to me is very musical. A film without music is very musical,
:41:19. > :41:23.because of the rhythm of the cuts and how you proceed, the pacing of
:41:23. > :41:29.the picture. The pace of the film and how the audience reacts, I
:41:29. > :41:38.should say, camera moves, obviously a musical. The rhythm of motion in
:41:38. > :41:41.a way. So, for me, music is part of your blood, in a way, it has to be
:41:41. > :41:45.so much part of your life. My brother played guitar, my father
:41:45. > :41:53.used to be able to. I was never able to. You have fairly Catholic
:41:54. > :41:59.tastes as well? I think so, yes. We're New Yorkers, and you know,
:41:59. > :42:03.working-class people, radio playing all the time, whether it was opera,
:42:03. > :42:13.or swing music, or whether it was American or British swing, some
:42:13. > :42:18.jazz, of course. Dylan's music in No Direction Home,
:42:18. > :42:23.was punched up to startling effect. With George Harrison's Living In A
:42:23. > :42:29.Material World, he has repeated the trick. Scorcese enjoys music with a
:42:29. > :42:34.wallop, he loved punk. # He's in love with rock'n'roll.
:42:34. > :42:38.There was a freshness to it, because it had, direct, it had
:42:38. > :42:48.something to say, they weren't going to be stopped. Somebody told
:42:48. > :42:48.
:42:49. > :42:54.me family member made meat balls for the clash? My mother. Your mum
:42:54. > :43:00.and Joe Strummer? I know Joe, and the manager, and a young lady named
:43:00. > :43:04.Pearl Harbour, yes. And we had some good Italian dinners, we used to
:43:04. > :43:08.cook every Sunday, my mother would come. She would say I'm sure all
:43:08. > :43:13.the buys would come, she would hold and hug -- these boys would come,
:43:13. > :43:17.she would hold them and hug them. Punks for lunch? They were very
:43:17. > :43:23.sweet. As far back as I would remember, I always wanted to be a
:43:23. > :43:27.gangster. Scorcese's best known for his gangster films like Goodfellas,
:43:27. > :43:32.rarely stinting on the body count. But the director said one of his
:43:32. > :43:36.hardest hitting, Casino, was more than anything, a political story.
:43:36. > :43:45.The crash we all now endure, he says he put on screen two decades
:43:45. > :43:50.ago. For me it has to be in the microcosim, in way, for me, Casino,
:43:50. > :43:57.for example, was a very political film. In the sense that in the
:43:57. > :44:01.opening image you have Robert De Niro walk out on the screen, in a
:44:01. > :44:06.salmon-coloured sports coat, white slacks, and patent leather shoes,
:44:06. > :44:11.gets into this Cadillac, turns the key and the car blows up. It is a
:44:11. > :44:19.true story. The amount of excess, the amount of never, there is
:44:19. > :44:26.nothing that is ever enough, until finally it explodes.
:44:26. > :44:30.This was in 1995. It was a concern of mine that, and that is one of
:44:30. > :44:35.the reasons of making the George Harrison film, Harrison pointed it
:44:35. > :44:40.out, he had everything at the age of 19, 21, but there has to be more,
:44:40. > :44:45.there has to be more to being alive. It was like how much more do we
:44:45. > :44:49.need of this. Look at this, they are tearing down the old Vegas,
:44:49. > :44:54.where it was like an old western, where you would have gun fighters
:44:54. > :45:00.or gamblers coming in, they would gamble, that is what they do, they
:45:00. > :45:05.gamble. Here, and the new Vegas, by the end of that film, it is a Vegas
:45:05. > :45:07.where they bring the family, because we have theme parks for
:45:07. > :45:13.them outside, while you are gambling away the money, for us,
:45:13. > :45:17.because you are not going to win it, we will keep it. It is purely evil.
:45:17. > :45:22.Martin Scorsese, tomorrow morning's front pages, beginning with the
:45:22. > :45:32.Financial Times, Mario Draghi, the petd of the ECB hints at eurozone
:45:32. > :45:58.
:45:58. > :46:08.Unison have offered Jeremy Clarkson a day to be care worker, it seems
:46:08. > :46:12.like great idea. Today marks the start of the
:46:12. > :46:22.Australian summer, celebrated on Bondi beach by some night surfing.
:46:22. > :46:42.
:46:42. > :46:52.# Night swimming # Your photograph on the dashboard
:46:52. > :46:56.
:46:56. > :47:00.Hi there. Good evening. It will turn out to be a cold night, clear
:47:00. > :47:03.and starry skies, widespread frost will develop, especially into the
:47:03. > :47:07.countryside. A chilly start to Friday morning, patches of ice
:47:07. > :47:10.around, with overnight showers. As we go through Friday, most places
:47:10. > :47:15.will have decent sunshine, it will tend to turn cloudy from the west
:47:15. > :47:19.as we go through the afternoon. Eastern England having decent
:47:19. > :47:22.sunshine, temperatures up to eight degrees. As we travel further
:47:22. > :47:28.westwards, here we will notice the freshening south-westerly breeze,
:47:28. > :47:32.the cloud will thicken up, and eventually outbreaks of rain moving
:47:32. > :47:37.in. Cloudier in the morning, outbreaks of rain pushing into
:47:37. > :47:43.western coastal counties, across the hills, damp weather for the
:47:43. > :47:49.Isle of Man. Cold night, with cloud coming over the top forp for
:47:49. > :47:52.Northern Ireland, temperatures four or five. Turpblg -- turning to snow
:47:52. > :47:56.across the Scottish mountains. Through Friday and Saturday, we
:47:56. > :47:59.lose the outbreaks of rain, it should be dryer generally across
:47:59. > :48:03.England and Wales through the weekend. The exception is across
:48:03. > :48:06.southern parts on Saturday. We will see outbreaks of rain, for example,
:48:06. > :48:09.in London, that should clear fairly quickly. The rain clears away from
:48:10. > :48:13.the far south of England and Wales. During Saturday morning, most