:00:09. > :00:14.They took to the streets, stoned the police, looted shops, set fires
:00:14. > :00:18.and visited chaos on previously sedate corners of the land. Who
:00:18. > :00:21.were the rioters of last summer? Their behaviour was criminal, but
:00:21. > :00:26.ground breaking intensive research, shows there may have been more to
:00:26. > :00:30.it. I actually warranted to burn the cars, and see it burn as well
:00:30. > :00:36.like, because the police, like, from what I have been through my
:00:36. > :00:40.whole life, police have caused hell for me, innit like. Looting fed on
:00:40. > :00:44.greed, but when they talk about their motive, many disclose deep
:00:44. > :00:50.politics. I love this country, however I hate the people who run
:00:50. > :00:53.it. What lessons can and should we learn to listening why they say
:00:53. > :00:57.they did what they did. Germany and France believe they
:00:57. > :01:07.have agreed a plan to save the euro, so why have they been warned about
:01:07. > :01:09.
:01:09. > :01:13.their credit ratings tonight. This year's riots, were the biggest
:01:13. > :01:17.shock to this country in a generation. But who were these
:01:17. > :01:19.people willing to attack the police and burn down parts of their own
:01:20. > :01:24.neighbourhoods? The Government told us they were
:01:24. > :01:27.criminals, that gangs were key, rioting was insited on Facebook,
:01:27. > :01:30.but now the London School of Economics, and the Guardian
:01:30. > :01:33.Newspaper, have questioned 270 of the rioters and discovered another
:01:33. > :01:37.picture. A third of the rioters interviewed were unemployed, and
:01:37. > :01:40.only a third admitted to a previous only a third admitted to a previous
:01:40. > :01:45.conviction. Paul Lewis, who covered the riots
:01:45. > :01:53.for that newspaper made the report, and there is strong language in the
:01:53. > :01:56.film. The England riots were the first
:01:56. > :02:01.bout of civil unrest in a generation. Thousands of people
:02:01. > :02:04.took to the streets in towns and cities. The fires, looting and
:02:04. > :02:07.clashes with police, gave the impression of a country at war with
:02:07. > :02:12.itself. Four days of disturbances re-
:02:12. > :02:18.resulted in five people dead, and more than 4,000 arrested.
:02:18. > :02:22.Across England, homes, shops and residential streets were left
:02:22. > :02:27.unrecoginsable. But why did it happen? This was not political
:02:27. > :02:31.protest, or a riot about protest, or about politics, this was
:02:31. > :02:35.commoner garden thieving, robbing and looting, we don't need an
:02:35. > :02:40.inquiry to tell us that. decision to not hold an inquiry
:02:40. > :02:45.into the riots, left a host of un'd questions. Four months on, no-one
:02:45. > :02:50.seems to -- unanswered questions. Four months on, no-one seems to
:02:50. > :02:54.know why the riots, that started here in Tottenham, took place. Our
:02:54. > :02:59.teams of researchers have interviewed 270 people who rioted
:02:59. > :03:01.in London, Birmingham, Liverpool and Manchester. Their testimony has
:03:01. > :03:04.undergone rigorous academic analysis, giving an insiebgt into
:03:04. > :03:14.why people took to the streets. You are about to hear their stories, in
:03:14. > :03:16.
:03:16. > :03:19.their words. I was at a gig, I was just standing
:03:19. > :03:29.outside having a cigarette, I was wondering why the crowd was
:03:29. > :03:30.
:03:30. > :03:39.gathering. That's when I found out it was a protest about Mark Dugg an
:03:39. > :03:44.being shot by police. Mark D Dugg an had been shot dead by police two
:03:44. > :03:50.days earlier, rumours had led to thoughts that he had been
:03:50. > :03:56.assassinated. Locals demonstrated at a police station. That was the
:03:56. > :04:00.first I had heard that Mark Dugg an had been shot, and I thought, what,
:04:00. > :04:04.another injustice by the police. Supporters of the family waited
:04:04. > :04:14.outside the police station for a senior officer, who never arrived.
:04:14. > :04:19.After three hours, patience ran out. Two police cars had been trashed, a
:04:19. > :04:24.group of youths had pushed a police car into the road and put black bin
:04:24. > :04:27.liners on it and set it alight. People were standing around
:04:28. > :04:32.cheering watching the police car go up in flames. I was just standing
:04:32. > :04:38.talking to other people, and shoved the other car on the road and put
:04:38. > :04:45.black bin liners there, I leaned in and set it alight. Then a guy came
:04:45. > :04:51.across the road and I stood back and watched the car go up. I stood
:04:51. > :04:55.there excited, fu lock them, lock the scum bass standards, it was an
:04:55. > :05:00.opportunity, I had never set alight to a police car before, and it was
:05:00. > :05:05.just, lock it, join in. It was a police car, I know what they stand
:05:05. > :05:10.for. I have been battered before, I now the injustices they caused.
:05:10. > :05:14.Alex was not a hooded youth, a white man, in his 30s, from south
:05:14. > :05:17.London. Within minutes, the image of the blazing car began
:05:17. > :05:21.circulating on mobile phones and the internet. It wasn't just black
:05:21. > :05:26.people, at the end of the day. It was the people from all backgrounds.
:05:26. > :05:30.Young, old, even little kids were there. I was literally talking to
:05:30. > :05:34.people I would never talk to in my life. People being nice and
:05:34. > :05:38.friendly and chatting to me, handing me cans, handing me a
:05:38. > :05:41.spliff, going, yeah, lock the police. No-one was talking about
:05:42. > :05:45.rioting or looting. Nothing like that, we were all sitting there and
:05:45. > :05:55.watching the police cars burn. It was like Bonfire Night on the high
:05:55. > :06:00.
:06:00. > :06:05.street. But the party atmosphere didn't last for long. People from
:06:05. > :06:12.surrounding boroughs poured into Tottenham, fires raged, police came
:06:12. > :06:19.under heavy attack. Shops were ransacked. The police had lost
:06:19. > :06:23.control. Police are calling for calm in Tottenham in North London.
:06:23. > :06:29.When I was getting pictures on the news, they were just destroying
:06:29. > :06:32.cars, they were within 10-20 feet from office, vandalising vehicles,
:06:32. > :06:41.throwing bricks and the police weren't doing nothing. There was no
:06:41. > :06:45.authority. It looked like we could have run of the streets. It started
:06:45. > :06:50.going in a chain reaction, literally it started at one end,
:06:50. > :06:56.and you know, the next valuable shop to go target, that was already
:06:56. > :06:59.getting broken into. Everyone was helping each other,
:06:59. > :07:04.holding up the shutters, carrying the short people inside. I saw
:07:04. > :07:08.little kids there I was thinking, what? I thought, I want some money,
:07:08. > :07:12.what? I thought, I want some money, I want some money.
:07:12. > :07:18.I just went into a shop and I was like, it's already broken, this is
:07:18. > :07:21.a jacket I don't have, and let me pick it up and take it. The people
:07:21. > :07:25.we interviewed openly admitted they were opportunists, this was their
:07:25. > :07:29.chance, in their words, to get free stuff. It felt like Christmas had
:07:29. > :07:33.come early, just being able to take all the nice things that you want.
:07:34. > :07:43.When you get a chance to put your hands on things like that, you feel
:07:44. > :07:46.
:07:46. > :07:49.good. As the lawlessness spread across London, the impression
:07:49. > :07:54.emerged of a city gripped by looting. The Government blamed
:07:54. > :07:58.social media for the contagion. But the rioters we spoke to were not
:07:58. > :08:03.using Facebook and Twitter. It was BlackBerry phones that were the
:08:03. > :08:07.main tools for organising the riots. The private messages, known as
:08:07. > :08:10.broadcasts and pings being shared along chains of friends, were
:08:10. > :08:15.reaching tens of thousands of phones, not only in the UK. Me and
:08:15. > :08:20.a couple of my friends were on holiday people were sending
:08:20. > :08:28.broadcasts and a couple of my friends pinged me and told me what
:08:28. > :08:31.was happening. The viral messages reaching Daniel, included images of
:08:31. > :08:35.the burning police cars, and rallying calls for people to take
:08:35. > :08:42.revenge for the death of Mark Duggan, they loss gave a list of
:08:42. > :08:48.where to meet and when. As soon as I saw that, I was happy. For some
:08:48. > :08:52.reason I just wanted to be there. I actually wanted to turn the cars
:08:52. > :08:58.and see it burn as well. The police, from what I have been through my
:08:58. > :09:05.whole life, like, police have caused hell for me, innit, like. We
:09:05. > :09:09.all cut our holiday and came straight back to England.
:09:09. > :09:14.I always thought to myself, when I was on holiday, there is a chance
:09:14. > :09:18.like this never come again. I saw it as my opportunity, now was the
:09:18. > :09:21.opportunity to get revenge. It wasn't even just the police, it was
:09:21. > :09:27.the whole Government, everything they do, they make things harder
:09:27. > :09:31.for us. They make it hard for us to get jobs, even when we do get
:09:31. > :09:35.benefits, they cut it down, like some people are trying to change
:09:35. > :09:39.their lives and go to university, and they are raising up the prices,
:09:39. > :09:42.and then people can't afford university, so they go back to
:09:42. > :09:46.selling drugs and stuff, and then you want to arrest them and say,
:09:46. > :09:50.you don't understand why all of these young people are acting like
:09:50. > :09:57.this. Really and truly, they are the reason why we are the way we
:09:57. > :10:02.are, innit, and I knew if we get back to England, and we actually
:10:02. > :10:07.damage, like, do a lot of damage to the point where forget all the
:10:07. > :10:17.benefits they have cut off, they would have to pay twenty-times
:10:17. > :10:17.
:10:17. > :10:21.worse than that. So we just our way of getting revenge.
:10:21. > :10:25.We thought, OK, you want to financially hurt us, we will
:10:25. > :10:30.financially hurt you by burning down buildings. I saw McDonalds get
:10:30. > :10:36.set on fire, and then it was completely set alight. I have
:10:36. > :10:40.petrol bombed it, eventhough it was set alight. I felt good.
:10:40. > :10:43.Many of the people we spoke to travelled to more than one location,
:10:43. > :10:53.they were searching for the disorder. Sometimes crossing the
:10:53. > :10:57.
:10:57. > :11:01.city. When we first got there, we saw police, they had their shields
:11:01. > :11:08.up, running. We thought, OK, they are on the defensive. So we just
:11:08. > :11:18.started picking up bricks and bottles and threw it at them.
:11:18. > :11:22.
:11:22. > :11:28.Locking bankers. It felt like Call Of Duty. It made
:11:28. > :11:32.me feel odd as well, I knew it was somebody's mum or dad, I didn't
:11:32. > :11:37.care, it was a chance to get revenge and I took it with both
:11:37. > :11:43.hands. Our streets. It was a war. And for the first time we were in
:11:43. > :11:50.control. We had the police scare, innit, there was no more us being
:11:50. > :11:55.scared of the police. We actually had a choice of letting officers
:11:55. > :11:58.off the hook, off seriously injuring them. I threw a brick at a
:11:58. > :12:03.police woman, I saw her drop, I could have easily brick her again,
:12:03. > :12:08.I didn't, because it was a woman. Scores of rioters said they had no
:12:08. > :12:14.interest in looting. I wasn't there for the robbing. I was there for
:12:14. > :12:19.revenge, innit. I will always remember the day that we had the
:12:19. > :12:26.police and the Government scared. For once, they were living on, they
:12:26. > :12:35.felt how we felt, they felt threatened by us. That was the best
:12:35. > :12:38.three days of my life. As the riots spread across England, the
:12:38. > :12:43.television pictures game the impression of mindless criminal --
:12:43. > :12:47.gave the impression of mineless criminality. The findings of our
:12:47. > :12:53.study found it to be more complex. Those involved said they felt like
:12:53. > :12:57.they were taking part in anti- police riots.
:12:58. > :13:03.When we came across a police car, it felt like we hit the jackpot. We
:13:03. > :13:10.smashed it, we petrol bombed it, we thought we would violate, just like
:13:10. > :13:14.they violate us. They arrest people for no reason,
:13:14. > :13:19.they stop and check us for no reason. We thought, like I get, get
:13:19. > :13:23.our own back. That's what we did. We enjoyed it, I felt no guilt,
:13:23. > :13:28.nothing. I know it is only one less police car, I know when they come
:13:28. > :13:32.back, just seeing their faces. I would have loved to have seen their
:13:32. > :13:36.faces, to be honest with you. Obviously rioters might seek to
:13:36. > :13:42.justify their actions after the event. But familiar themes kept
:13:42. > :13:44.arising, unprompted by our researchers. Rioters repeatedly
:13:44. > :13:49.expressed frustrations about their daily interactions with police. In
:13:49. > :13:52.their words, they felt hasled, bullied, unable to walk down their
:13:52. > :13:58.streets without being stopped and searched.
:13:58. > :14:02.Me and my mum were walking home, my younger brother and a few of his
:14:02. > :14:06.friends, who have been in trouble with the police for a while. But
:14:06. > :14:11.they weren't doing anything, they literally just met up in front of
:14:11. > :14:16.my mum's block of flats. The police get out and question my wror
:14:16. > :14:21.brother and his friends, my mum said, why do you he need to talk to
:14:21. > :14:26.him. They were so disrespectful to my mum, and my mum was polite,
:14:26. > :14:31.she's not a rude woman, they pushed her aside, sort of thing. Then they
:14:31. > :14:35.pushed me aside. And they took him into the van, and they beat him up
:14:35. > :14:41.and broke his nose. Some people would say because he's a
:14:41. > :14:44.troublemaker, that it is fair, but it is not.
:14:44. > :14:48.I have seen my friends get beaten up in front of me by the police
:14:48. > :14:53.officer. But what can you do, you can't turn around and say I will
:14:53. > :14:58.write a statement or send off a letter. You never get a reply or
:14:58. > :15:02.nothing ever gets done about it. Time and again the rioters we
:15:02. > :15:06.interviewed complained the police did not treat them as equals, they
:15:06. > :15:09.said officers were rude, impolite, disrespectful. It didn't matter if
:15:09. > :15:13.they were in Liverpool, London or Birmingham, they felt it was their
:15:13. > :15:18.chance to get their own back. my point of view, everybody just
:15:18. > :15:21.wanted to fight with the police. There weren't no looters or anyone
:15:21. > :15:26.robbing, there was just shops getting smashed up. Any excuse to
:15:26. > :15:32.go wild, really. And then it is people who like being battered by
:15:32. > :15:38.the police, and they want payback. Things likes that. Police may have
:15:38. > :15:41.been the main target of the riots, but the complaints didn't end there.
:15:41. > :15:46.The scrapping of the education maintenance allowance, the focus of
:15:46. > :15:50.protests last winter, was repeatedly mentioned. It was part
:15:50. > :15:54.of a bigger picture, people we interviewed felt they were getting
:15:54. > :15:57.a raw deal from Government. They spoke of youth service closures,
:15:57. > :16:01.rising unemployment, and cuts to benefits. Almost half were in
:16:01. > :16:06.education. And some had taken part in the student fee protests. Did it
:16:06. > :16:09.achieve anything, we had a protest the other day, did it achieve
:16:09. > :16:14.anything? No, they will put the university fees up, they will make
:16:14. > :16:20.it really hard for people to get anywhere in life. To get go from
:16:20. > :16:24.what my sister paid, I think it was a grand in tuition fees, she's six
:16:24. > :16:28.years older than me, I paid three grand, they want nine now. You have
:16:28. > :16:34.tripled it once and again. And you expect everyone to just sit back
:16:34. > :16:38.and take it on the chin. For them to cut away things like EMA,
:16:38. > :16:43.learning grants loans and up the university prices means people
:16:43. > :16:49.resort back to the same thing. love this country, however I hate
:16:49. > :16:54.the people who run it. David Cameron has never experienced a day
:16:54. > :16:58.on the street or a day jobless, or being on job seekers.
:16:58. > :17:03.At the time the consensus was people were rioting without a cause.
:17:03. > :17:07.But those we spoke to made this much clear, the riots did not
:17:07. > :17:16.happen in a political vacuum. course there was a reason behind it,
:17:16. > :17:19.why would it all kick off. It wouldn't kick off for no reason.
:17:19. > :17:24.Four nights of sustained rioting destroyed parts of England's
:17:24. > :17:30.suburbs. The response from police was swift and hard. More than 4,000
:17:30. > :17:33.people were arrested. They would face harsher than usual sentences.
:17:33. > :17:39.The Government's response has been what they have called a war on
:17:39. > :17:43.gangs. At the heart of all the violence sits the issue of street
:17:43. > :17:48.gangs. Our research has found no evidence to suggest gangs organised
:17:48. > :17:52.the riots. If anything, the small proportion of gang members who were
:17:53. > :17:57.present behaved in an atypical manner, across England, postcode
:17:57. > :18:02.rivalries and gang hostilities dissolved for what was effectively
:18:02. > :18:06.a four-day truce. You had different areas that had gang-related
:18:06. > :18:11.problems working together, everyone put their problems away for that
:18:11. > :18:15.week. They were able to get along, because we had one thing in common,
:18:15. > :18:19.and that was to hurt the Government and the police. It wasn't really
:18:19. > :18:23.gang-related. On those few nights of the riots, everybody united. I
:18:23. > :18:27.think we all had the same feeling, we all had the common feeling and
:18:27. > :18:34.we expressed it. For those whose lives were ruined by the riots,
:18:34. > :18:38.that sense of unity will be hard to fathom. Rioters told us, they
:18:38. > :18:41.regreted that parts of their own communities had been destroyed.
:18:41. > :18:44.really didn't have to be there. I really didn't have to be there, I
:18:44. > :18:48.have enough trainers as it is, and hats as it is. It didn't really
:18:48. > :18:50.make a difference in my life. feel sorry for people who have
:18:51. > :18:54.little businesses and that, I felt that was completely wrong, I
:18:54. > :18:58.completely disagree with that. could have been setting fire to a
:18:58. > :19:02.house that had babies in there, that is what made me stop. The fact
:19:02. > :19:06.that I didn't want to hurt the innocents, but in way, that was
:19:06. > :19:11.good, because as soon as I stopped bricking houses I went straight
:19:11. > :19:17.into police cars, police officers. Even when rioters expressed regret,
:19:17. > :19:21.they showed little remorse for their attacks on police. Setting
:19:21. > :19:26.fire to the car, I don't feel guilty about it at all. I would do
:19:26. > :19:30.it again. Hopefully there will be riots coming up soon. Why should I
:19:30. > :19:33.respect them, if they don't respect me, for what reason, I would do it
:19:33. > :19:41.again. I would probably do two police cars if I had the
:19:41. > :19:47.opportunity, to be honest with you. Do you have any regrets? Yeah. But
:19:47. > :19:57.that I didn't do more damage. I warrant -- wanted to burn down the
:19:57. > :19:59.
:19:59. > :20:02.Time to talk to the minister in charge of the police, Nick Herbert.
:20:02. > :20:05.Do you think it might have been wiser if the Prime Minister had
:20:05. > :20:09.waited to establish the facts before saying it was all just
:20:09. > :20:14.criminality and gangs? We know that three quarters of those who have
:20:14. > :20:17.been brought before the courts did actually have previous convictions.
:20:17. > :20:22.So there is absolutely no doubt that these were people who had been
:20:22. > :20:26.in trouble before, and we know. Doesn't that say something about
:20:26. > :20:30.those arrested, this is a broader sample? It is right to say it is
:20:30. > :20:35.about criminality when you are talking about people on the streets,
:20:35. > :20:39.looting, damaging the property and attacking the police. Nobody denies
:20:39. > :20:43.it was criminality, and awful in many cases. Wasn't the most
:20:43. > :20:47.striking thing there, the sense of alienation that came through, and
:20:47. > :20:51.the particular focus upon getting back at the police who they felt
:20:51. > :20:55.had been oppressing them? I actual low don't sop accept that the
:20:55. > :21:00.police behave in that way. -- I actually don't accept that the
:21:00. > :21:05.police behave in that way. There are particular cases discussed in
:21:05. > :21:09.Tottenham being discussed in a different place. But elsewhere it
:21:09. > :21:13.was much more about copycat action, opportunism. Looting, some of that
:21:13. > :21:17.came about in your report. If we go back to the fact that three quarter
:21:17. > :21:20.of the people who took part in this, or who have been brought before the
:21:20. > :21:24.courts, actually had criminal records. The fact that they don't
:21:24. > :21:28.like the police is hardly a surprise. Shock, horror, criminals
:21:28. > :21:31.don't like the police. This is much broader research than simply those
:21:31. > :21:35.people who appeared before the court. This is 270 people who
:21:35. > :21:40.participated in the riots, some of whom, a very small proportion,
:21:40. > :21:45.about 30 of whom may have been arrested and indeed convicted, the
:21:45. > :21:49.remaining 240 of whom were not. Hold on, as you said, in the report,
:21:49. > :21:52.the report itself said, a third hadn't been in trouble with the law.
:21:52. > :21:58.It was interesting that your report put it that way. You could have
:21:58. > :22:02.said that it meant that two-thirds had a previous conviction. It is by
:22:02. > :22:06.their own testimony. In the same order as three quarters brought
:22:06. > :22:10.before the court with a previous conviction, this research shows
:22:10. > :22:14.these people were people who had been in trouble with the law before.
:22:14. > :22:19.That is air own statements too. Do you think -- that is their own
:22:19. > :22:21.statements. Do you think they are making excuses then? If you look at
:22:21. > :22:24.the research and what people were offering as the reasons they did
:22:24. > :22:26.things, including a dislike of the police and the Government. That was
:22:26. > :22:30.very different to the reasons that the public gave for why they
:22:30. > :22:34.thought it would happen. The public were saying. The public weren't
:22:34. > :22:38.rioting? The public were pointing to other issues, including social
:22:38. > :22:42.breakdown, family breakdown, the public were much more inclined to
:22:42. > :22:45.say. It is the testimony of the rioters themselves? The rioters
:22:45. > :22:51.were reluctant to accept responsibility, what they wanted to
:22:51. > :22:56.do was blame others. With us now is the former Metropolitan Police
:22:56. > :23:01.commissioner, Lord Ian Blair, David Lammy, the MP for Tottenham, Liz
:23:01. > :23:06.Pilgrim, whose job was looted and vandalised during the riots, and
:23:06. > :23:09.Professor Tim Newburn, and a youth leader from South-East London. Miss
:23:09. > :23:13.Pilgrim what did you make of it, given your shop was wrecked by
:23:13. > :23:18.these people, what did you make of what you heard there? I think that
:23:18. > :23:24.the police didn't keep control that night. Sure. But the causes, what
:23:24. > :23:30.they said about why they were rioting? I think that, in Ealing
:23:30. > :23:33.itself, it wasn't a political proprotest, it was definitely
:23:33. > :23:37.people that -- political protest, it was definitely people who took
:23:37. > :23:42.the opportunity to ransack my street, set fire to the building,
:23:42. > :23:48.make people lose their homes. Somebody died that night. It is no
:23:48. > :23:53.excuse, really, is there, David Lammy, for what happened. You are
:23:53. > :23:57.the MP for Tottenham, you know xapd there, there is no excuse for it?
:23:57. > :24:01.would want to emphasise the 20,000 or so young people in Haringey who
:24:01. > :24:06.stayed at home, and the 240,000 people in the London Borough
:24:06. > :24:11.ofHaringey who were frightened in their homes. I do think that the
:24:11. > :24:15.cohort of people that the Guardian have spoken to are important, and
:24:15. > :24:19.unless we look into their eyes and hear their voices this will happen
:24:20. > :24:24.again. I do think when they talk about stop and search, it is
:24:24. > :24:28.important to recognise in the most diverse constituency in the country,
:24:28. > :24:33.that there is an acceleration between, particularly for Muslim
:24:33. > :24:37.youth and for black youth, in stop and search, at this point in time.
:24:37. > :24:42.The Government have changed the rules on that. Also we have a
:24:42. > :24:46.Metropolitan Police with only 868 black officers and 32,000 across
:24:46. > :24:51.the Met. That is an issue. Do you recognise that, Nick Herbert?
:24:51. > :24:55.goes to trust. I completely reject David's suggestion and lay this at
:24:55. > :24:59.the door of Government changing rules. We scrap the reform that
:24:59. > :25:06.said that the police had to record a stop and account, actually the
:25:06. > :25:09.Met have chopbs, as is their right, not to do that in London. We have
:25:09. > :25:13.reduced a couple of the specific bits of information that have to be
:25:13. > :25:16.provided on the stop and search form that still has to be completed.
:25:16. > :25:19.Isn't it a point about how the police are seen, do you accept
:25:19. > :25:23.that? I accept that by the testimony of the people involved
:25:23. > :25:26.there, they say they disliked the police, I make the point again,
:25:26. > :25:30.these are people in trouble with the police, it is not surprising.
:25:30. > :25:35.The testimony that you heard there from people who took part in the
:25:35. > :25:39.riots, you didn't, but you know people who did. Does it ring true?
:25:39. > :25:42.I think definitely, I think it is a huge problem when it comes to
:25:42. > :25:45.relationships between young people and the police force. I think the
:25:45. > :25:49.fact that a lot of the young people were talking in the film about how
:25:49. > :25:53.they hated the police and they felt they were mistreated by the police.
:25:53. > :25:57.I'm a young person who has been through that situation. I have been
:25:57. > :25:59.stopped and searched at least six people, and I'm one of the young
:26:00. > :26:03.people contributing to making society better in our communities.
:26:04. > :26:08.That is a huge problem. With the stop and search it is a major
:26:08. > :26:11.problem with the slips, that was one way to make sure if we thought
:26:11. > :26:15.we were treated wrong bit police we could follow that up. The fact it
:26:15. > :26:18.is scrapped, and the police are saying go to the police station to
:26:18. > :26:21.get a slip about what is going on, everything is prolonged. There is a
:26:21. > :26:24.lot of young people who have been faeked, and there is a lot of young
:26:24. > :26:28.people -- affected and there is a lot of young people who are in
:26:28. > :26:33.situations where the police has treated them wrong and they don't
:26:33. > :26:37.know where to go to sort it out. Were you surprised by what you
:26:37. > :26:40.found? I was a little, at the outset I thought that the subject
:26:40. > :26:45.of policing would come up. I thought some of the issues of
:26:45. > :26:49.whatever we want to call it, alienation, and so forth, would
:26:49. > :26:54.have come up. I was surprised by the strength of it and the
:26:54. > :26:57.frequency we heard it. We heard it in every city we did research and
:26:57. > :27:03.across the demographic, men and women, young and old. Do you think
:27:03. > :27:08.they were making excuses? Yes, in part I think they were. One cannot
:27:08. > :27:12.deny that certainly some people that we spoke to were undoubtedly
:27:12. > :27:16.trying to rationalise away some of their behaviour. Nonetheless, I
:27:16. > :27:21.think the care with think the research was done, the care with
:27:21. > :27:30.which the analysis was done, leads us to feel that the frequency and
:27:30. > :27:34.very hemmence we heard was not just a rationalisation and something we
:27:34. > :27:39.have to take seriously. I agree with Nick Herbert, it is an
:27:39. > :27:44.excellent piece of research, as I would expect from the LSE, it has
:27:44. > :27:50.the least surprising result, I don't want to sound like Blackadder,
:27:50. > :27:54.the American Indians were found not to like General Custard. People do
:27:54. > :27:58.not like police, because this is the group that they are most in
:27:58. > :28:03.contact. I'm pleased with the fact that 73% of those rioters were
:28:03. > :28:07.stopped and searched last year, the right people were stopped and
:28:07. > :28:10.searched. Are you saying there is no problem? There is always room
:28:10. > :28:16.for improvement. The fact is the police service in London has driven
:28:16. > :28:20.crime down year after year since 1993. One of theishs you will end
:28:20. > :28:25.up with is a -- issues you will end up with, is a group of people who
:28:25. > :28:32.are entirely, with the difficulties they have over employment, over the
:28:32. > :28:36.EMA, a lot of anger is there. can't stop just because you look
:28:36. > :28:40.like, or where you are from. Nobody is suggesting here that people are
:28:40. > :28:44.being stopped and searched, there is nothing racial in these riots,
:28:44. > :28:49.this is about the group of people, who I think Tim will recognise, as
:28:49. > :28:52.the phrase that criminologyists have used for a long time, called
:28:52. > :28:56."police property", these are the people, if I took you to a police
:28:56. > :28:59.station or a prison, you would find three quarters of the people there
:28:59. > :29:04.with previous conviction, you would find three quarters of the people
:29:04. > :29:09.have educational needs. They are terribly badly educated, but...The
:29:09. > :29:13.Point about the police is they deal with the symptoms, the political
:29:13. > :29:17.part. You don't make anything of the political analysis? I make a
:29:17. > :29:21.huge amount of political analysis. These are a group of people who are
:29:21. > :29:24.the most deprived in the country. We need to help them, we need to
:29:25. > :29:29.actually get right behind the educational processes. They are
:29:29. > :29:34.being helped by the police, they are being beaten up by the police?
:29:34. > :29:38.They are not being beaten up by the police. You are saying those people
:29:38. > :29:42.are lying? You have to recognise a context in which over 300 people
:29:42. > :29:47.have died in police custody, and not one police officer has felt the
:29:47. > :29:51.force of the law. You have got to recognise the force with which
:29:51. > :29:56.there are communities in London, who feel that is a grave injustice.
:29:56. > :30:00.Of course, in the context of knife crime, it is understandable that
:30:00. > :30:03.there is stop and search, but it needs to be intelligence-led, and
:30:03. > :30:08.it is very difficult, if police cannot tell the difference between
:30:08. > :30:11.a young man that is on the way to the gym, wearing a hoodie, and a
:30:11. > :30:15.young man wearing a hoodie who is has a knife. Has the problem we
:30:15. > :30:19.have with the Met in London. Nobody should be stopped on the grounds of
:30:19. > :30:23.their ethnicity, that would be wrong. That is happening. We know
:30:23. > :30:26.there is similar deprivation in Sheffield n Bradford, on Tyneside n
:30:26. > :30:31.Glasgow, Edinburgh. They didn't riot there. These people who took
:30:31. > :30:35.part in all of this, they are not the victims. The victims are people
:30:35. > :30:39.like Liz, whose property was damaged. We know that, we watched
:30:39. > :30:44.on our television screens, people walk out of shops with armfuls of
:30:44. > :30:47.goods, people walking away with plasma TVs. People who lost their
:30:47. > :30:52.moral compass. And we should take care not to lose our's, and think
:30:52. > :30:57.actually there is any kind of excuse for this behaviour. There is
:30:57. > :31:00.not. What do you think has gone wrong, your shop was looted?
:31:00. > :31:05.Totally trashed, smashed, everything pulled out. What do you
:31:06. > :31:10.sell in your shop? Baby clothes. That was looted. Some of which are
:31:10. > :31:17.aspirational brands, some of which are hand made knitted booties.
:31:17. > :31:23.did they do to it? They completely ransacked it, smashed everything up.
:31:23. > :31:26.Stole everything they could carry. Walked out on to the reen and
:31:26. > :31:30.dropped things. -- The green and dropped things. When you think
:31:30. > :31:34.about what happened, what do you think has gone wrong in our
:31:34. > :31:42.society? It is so complex, and it gets me really, really upset,
:31:42. > :31:49.thinking that there isn't an answer, there's the fact that people feel
:31:49. > :31:53.they have no future, that there is no consequences to their action,
:31:53. > :31:59.that there really is no moral guideline for them any more. There
:31:59. > :32:08.is no hope. And I think that we're all to blame. It's schools it's the
:32:08. > :32:12.police, it's society in general. We all try to aspire to certain brands
:32:12. > :32:16.and. You are playing the individual's concerns, this is an
:32:16. > :32:20.individual judgment, and the collective norms of behaviour
:32:21. > :32:25.changed during the riots, obviously, but each action is the consequence
:32:25. > :32:29.of an individual decision, isn't it? Yes it is. Can I just say as
:32:29. > :32:33.well, it is very poignant in that film that people, some of them
:32:34. > :32:38.regreted their actions. And that it was that moment. Some didn't?
:32:38. > :32:47.there were moments I think when people just got caught up with what
:32:47. > :32:52.was happening. We can't just brush everybody with the same statement.
:32:52. > :32:58.We have a model that is policing by consent, and it seems to me that
:32:58. > :33:00.the absence of policing, right across London, led to a situation
:33:00. > :33:08.in which that ethical and moral decision, that individuals have to
:33:08. > :33:12.make, and account for themselves, was allowed to be at large. This is
:33:12. > :33:16.the failure of the police on certain nights? In successive
:33:16. > :33:18.nights. If they kept control on the Saturday night it wouldn't have
:33:18. > :33:23.escalated. What do you think has gone wrong in the society? Nobody
:33:23. > :33:26.is born a criminal. To just say that a lot of the people who
:33:26. > :33:30.weren't part of the riots, they were reoffenders, you have to ask
:33:30. > :33:33.why did they reoffend in the first place. A lot of those people are
:33:33. > :33:37.not being helped when they are showing the symptoms of needing
:33:37. > :33:39.help, wherever that may be, in the education system, if it when it
:33:39. > :33:42.comes to the relationship between the police and the young people,
:33:42. > :33:45.something needs to be done. What has changed within our society is
:33:45. > :33:49.nobody really wants to take the rap for what is going on. I think when
:33:49. > :33:52.it comes to young people, a lot of young people do ask for help, it
:33:52. > :33:56.may not anybody a verbal conversation, at the same time a
:33:56. > :33:59.lot of young people show symptoms that they need some type of
:33:59. > :34:02.interaction. A lot of people tend to point the finger at young people
:34:02. > :34:06.and say they should be responsible for their actions. We are not doing
:34:06. > :34:09.this out of nowhere, we are learning it from people we saw on
:34:09. > :34:12.tell ves, the bankers the politicians, the police officers.
:34:12. > :34:18.There is no respect anywhere, is there. It is white collar crime,
:34:18. > :34:21.but because they are wearing suits is it OK for them to get away it.
:34:22. > :34:25.Just baulk young people weren't very organised and wearing hoodies
:34:25. > :34:29.we should condemn them. If the justice system is putting some
:34:29. > :34:34.people away, they should be treated with the same brush, no matter a
:34:34. > :34:41.young people or politician. Young people took that on board t may not
:34:41. > :34:48.be on a conscious level, but a sub conscious level, that if they can
:34:48. > :34:53.do it, then we can get away with it. Not awful them were young.
:34:53. > :34:56.Offending should always have consequence, a white collar
:34:56. > :35:00.criminal or those in anti-social behaviour. We need a system that
:35:00. > :35:03.sends those clear messages. One of the things that happened after this
:35:03. > :35:06.disorder is the criminal justice system responded with unusual
:35:06. > :35:10.certainty in dealing with people. It sent the right message, actually.
:35:10. > :35:18.Some of them may have got it. is true, what is it going to
:35:18. > :35:21.achieve by banging people up? you are saying, that exemplary
:35:21. > :35:25.sentences should not have been handed down, those are matters for
:35:25. > :35:30.the courts. I completely disagree. You have to send that signal to
:35:30. > :35:33.people that the behaviour is not acceptable. I don't know if simply
:35:33. > :35:39.trying to brush these people aside is the right way to do it. None of
:35:39. > :35:42.it should stop us doing the all the things. Restorative justice is very
:35:42. > :35:46.important. There is an important distinction, it is not to say, of
:35:46. > :35:50.course when people break the law, in the most extreme ways there
:35:50. > :35:54.should be punishments. It is wrong to shift from that to thinking the
:35:54. > :35:58.criminal justice system is the solution to the problems we face.
:35:58. > :36:00.Nobody is saying it is. And actually. That is what you were
:36:00. > :36:03.saying just then, it was. I was saying that offending has
:36:03. > :36:06.consequences and whether you are a white collar criminal or somebody
:36:06. > :36:12.on the streets, I don't think, by the way, that people who were
:36:12. > :36:18.looting at the time thought they were doing so because of expenses
:36:18. > :36:22.scandals or City scandals. Young people are getting arrested and put
:36:22. > :36:27.away, and by the time they are coming out it is 19, everything
:36:27. > :36:31.they need to turn them into an adult and turn them into a help to
:36:31. > :36:34.society they are not getting the chances. Reform of the penal system,
:36:34. > :36:39.I agree it is not enough. Ian Blair, one question, Liz has already
:36:39. > :36:45.raised this question, and so has David Lammy, and it is commonly
:36:45. > :36:49.held, the police failed to act quickly enough. You weren't there,
:36:49. > :36:55.none of us was taking commands then, or giving commands then. But now
:36:55. > :36:58.the talk is, of issuing the police with water canon, and if necessary
:36:58. > :37:01.plastic bullets, is that the answer? If that is the answer it is
:37:01. > :37:06.the wrong question. Neither of those tactics would have been any
:37:06. > :37:09.use in these riots. Plastic bullets and water canon are designed to
:37:09. > :37:15.keep people away from a particular place, they use them in France and
:37:15. > :37:19.all the rest of it. To try to chase rioters moving quickly around
:37:19. > :37:23.London with that kind of equipment would be nonsense. What I want to
:37:23. > :37:29.contribute, one further point, which is the concentration in the
:37:29. > :37:33.Guardian today about the police, is an answer about the symptoms.Y, the
:37:33. > :37:37.police could have done better and they should been there more quickly,
:37:37. > :37:40.and better intelligences, and Liz's shop should not have been ruined.
:37:40. > :37:43.But the answer lies much further back in who this group of people
:37:43. > :37:48.are, they are the same group of people sitting in prison now, with
:37:48. > :37:51.poor educational standards. have made that point. It is
:37:51. > :37:55.terribly important. Surely other people might say the police are a
:37:55. > :37:59.lightning conductor for a problem clearly identified by rioters and
:37:59. > :38:03.observers as being them and us. police are engaged with this group
:38:03. > :38:06.and will go on being engaged with this group forever, that is what
:38:06. > :38:11.policing does. It does it every country in the world t deals with a
:38:11. > :38:19.group of people who behave in a criminal form. If the Government
:38:19. > :38:27.wants more robust policing, then I personallyam concerned -- I
:38:27. > :38:31.personally I am concerned. latest news in the euro seems to
:38:31. > :38:34.have convinced those who move the markets, for now at least. Nicolas
:38:34. > :38:39.Sarkozy and Angela Merkel agreed today they need a new treaty n
:38:39. > :38:43.which those who break the rules sufferam penalties, they want a new
:38:43. > :38:48.bailout fund. Within hours the rating agency, Standard & Poor's
:38:48. > :38:51.told the eurozone countries that they could lose their blue chip
:38:51. > :38:56.credit rating as early as Friday night, if their plan doesn't work.
:38:56. > :39:00.First, they failed in Brussels, then they failed in Cannes. For
:39:00. > :39:04.months the EU has been like an endless advent calendar, where it
:39:04. > :39:09.is always winter but never Christmas. Summit after summit as
:39:09. > :39:13.failed. Today, in Paris, Europe's leaders may just have opened a
:39:13. > :39:18.window on the future. The German Chancellor arrived in Paris, with a
:39:18. > :39:22.plan, and once she got President Sarkozy behind closed doors, and
:39:22. > :39:26.after some give and take, the French backed the plan.
:39:26. > :39:30.TRANSLATION: France and Germany are the two big economies of Europe. To
:39:30. > :39:34.take the risk of us spliting, is to take the risk of exploding Europe
:39:34. > :39:38.and the euro. The deal they are working on shapes
:39:38. > :39:42.up like this, there will be legally-binding commitments to
:39:43. > :39:46.balance the books enshrined in national institutions. With --
:39:46. > :39:50.constitutions. With automatic sanctions for those with deficits
:39:51. > :39:54.above 3%. The long-term bailout fund for Europe, the ESM, will be
:39:54. > :39:59.brought forward, launching in 2012, but it will no longer try to impose
:39:59. > :40:02.losses on the banks. It will all be done through a new treaty, with or
:40:02. > :40:07.without Britain. There is the clear beginnings of a long-term deal here.
:40:07. > :40:09.But it is being done for a short- term reason, the leaders need to
:40:09. > :40:14.convince the European Central Bank they are prepared to impose
:40:14. > :40:19.discipline on southern Europe, not just once, but forever. If they can
:40:19. > :40:24.do that, the Central Bank itself may do what it has never done, act
:40:24. > :40:27.as the lender of last resort, and begin buying up the debts of those
:40:27. > :40:31.sthriken countries. What the an -- striken countries. What the
:40:31. > :40:34.analysts are looking for now is action in the short-term, and some
:40:34. > :40:38.big money. I don't think it will succeed in being a circuit breaker,
:40:38. > :40:42.on its own. You will have to see a number of other measures announced
:40:42. > :40:46.on Friday, for this solution to really be found. I think you will
:40:46. > :40:51.have to see another bailout groing programme announced for Spain and
:40:51. > :40:57.Italy, include -- bailout programme announced for Spain and Italy. You
:40:57. > :41:01.will have to see the ECB stepping in some way. I don't think any are
:41:01. > :41:04.actual solutions but they will buy some time, if EU leaders can agree
:41:04. > :41:08.on them. On the markets the impact was
:41:08. > :41:14.immediate, the Italian Government's effective cost of borrowing slumped,
:41:14. > :41:17.it had been well above 7% after Cannes. But it fell below 6% today.
:41:17. > :41:20.Now comes the tiny problem of selling the whole deal, first to
:41:21. > :41:24.the French. I don't think the French are in very much in favour
:41:24. > :41:31.of handing over more sovereignty to the commission in Brussels. However,
:41:31. > :41:36.a solution must be found. The crisis to be resolved very, very
:41:36. > :41:41.quickly. It depends, again, how it is done. The French are very much
:41:41. > :41:43.in favour, traditionally, to regulation, and if they see that
:41:43. > :41:47.the markets can be tamed by political leadership, I think they
:41:47. > :41:51.will be in favour of it. Once the French are squared, there is the
:41:51. > :41:55.Brits, we know David Cameron's position. On the referendum, our
:41:56. > :41:59.approach is very simple, we have legislated now, so it is impossible
:41:59. > :42:03.for a British Government to pass power, from Britain to Brussels,
:42:03. > :42:06.without asking the British people in a referendum first. That is the
:42:06. > :42:10.legal position. We have made that vitally important change. As Prime
:42:10. > :42:14.Minister, I'm not intending to pass any powers from Britain to Brussels,
:42:14. > :42:17.I don't think the issue will arise, but the British people should know,
:42:17. > :42:22.there is an absolute safeguard if power goes from Britain to Brussels,
:42:22. > :42:27.they have to say so first, and quite right too. What if a 17-
:42:27. > :42:31.nation treaty changes the balance of power, Merkel and Sarkozy made
:42:31. > :42:38.it clear today they would not be asking for Mr Cameron's rubber
:42:38. > :42:41.stamp. For the past six months the eurocrisis has been essentially a
:42:41. > :42:45.political sis, solvable by a decision making, even if people
:42:45. > :42:49.don't want to make decisions, now six months of indecision have
:42:49. > :42:53.created a world economic downturn, and Britain is being dragged into
:42:53. > :42:58.that. This is how one Italian minister felt as she voted through
:42:59. > :43:03.a new round of austerity last night. And well she might, the ratings
:43:03. > :43:08.agency S & P threatened to downgrade the whole eurozone,
:43:08. > :43:11.reminding them that while they have been dithering, growth has been
:43:11. > :43:15.disappearing. We will probably see debt restructuring in Italy and
:43:15. > :43:19.Spain. The influences of that on confidence, the financial services
:43:20. > :43:24.industries and lending is huge, and will cause growth to contract.
:43:24. > :43:29.there nothing they can do to stop that? No, I don't think there is,
:43:29. > :43:32.unless they draw a line under the crisis. Unless they can cut rates,
:43:33. > :43:37.talk down the euro, provide stimulus in the eurozone, I don't
:43:37. > :43:41.think they could find growth. they don't do a deal on Friday, the
:43:41. > :43:44.European calendar becomes a bit fraught, Italy needs to sell two
:43:44. > :43:49.big piles of bonds before the new year and up to now, nobody is
:43:49. > :43:54.buying. One slip there, and the whole mood of confidence goes out
:43:55. > :43:59.the window. Paul is here now with more on the
:43:59. > :44:03.warning tonight from the credit creating agency, Standard & Poor's.
:44:03. > :44:09.-- credit rating agency, Standard & Poor's. Germany and France agree to
:44:09. > :44:14.save the euro and risk getting their credit rating downgraded.
:44:14. > :44:18.Within hours, S & P have said that the there is a 50% of chance that
:44:18. > :44:22.the whole of the eurozone gets downtkwraided, the six triple A
:44:22. > :44:25.ratings would be lost. That would make the bailout fund, based on
:44:25. > :44:28.that money, impossible to do. They are saying you have a mixture of
:44:28. > :44:32.political indecision, there is a credit crunch in your banking
:44:32. > :44:40.system, and in the case in France you have your sums wrong on the
:44:40. > :44:46.buing budget deficit. Who are these people? All they exist to do is to
:44:46. > :44:51.say if the bonds are tripping A or not, are they risk-free or not. It
:44:51. > :44:55.brings the medicine methed out to Greece and Italy -- meted out to
:44:55. > :44:58.Greece and Italy potentially to France, maybe someone wants to get
:44:58. > :45:05.rid of the French Government. likely is today's deal to stick,
:45:05. > :45:12.and where does it leave Britain and other non-euro mebts, the former
:45:12. > :45:15.banker Joe Johnson, and the -- my other guest are here. Why is this
:45:15. > :45:21.deal going to work better than the other deal, all the arrangements
:45:21. > :45:26.exist? Yes they do, the only reason I can think that this should be
:45:26. > :45:28.make a difference is Angela Merkel is -- should make a difference, is
:45:28. > :45:32.Angela Merkel is talking about institutions and looking more in
:45:32. > :45:35.charge, and might be able to get more out of her own parliament at
:45:35. > :45:39.home. She always looked like she was running after the last
:45:39. > :45:45.financial market panic. People in Germany got very upset with her.
:45:45. > :45:53.When she started talking about grand bargains and treaty change
:45:53. > :46:01.and fiscal and stability change, the way she is handling the crisis
:46:01. > :46:06.has shot up. That might help in having to get the bailout funds
:46:06. > :46:11.going, getting more money from the IMF. Of course, it is broader than
:46:11. > :46:14.just Germany, the proposal is there be a new treaty? Yes, but that is a
:46:15. > :46:21.very long-term thing. They are talking about having this treaty.
:46:21. > :46:25.It is March, not that long-term? treat change in Europe has ever
:46:25. > :46:29.gone that quickly. -- no treaty change in Europe has ever gone that
:46:29. > :46:33.quickly. There is no reason to take it seriously then? The treaty
:46:33. > :46:37.change is long-term any way, it will not change the eurozone. This
:46:37. > :46:41.is part of a package that is politically necessary to convince
:46:41. > :46:47.the ECB that it is safe to intervene in the markets. They
:46:47. > :46:52.don't want to do the dirty job of telling the Italians to cut their
:46:52. > :46:56.budget. They don't want to act as the lender of last resort but first
:46:56. > :47:01.resort. They have played it back to the politicians. You're nodding
:47:01. > :47:06.very loyally? I think she's right. The fiscal factor is one part of a
:47:06. > :47:08.multistep solution. The S & P reaction illustrates the fact that
:47:08. > :47:13.France and Germany don't have credibility when it comes to
:47:13. > :47:18.enforcing fiscal rules. I was a Paris correspondent in 2005 they
:47:18. > :47:22.were the original sinners, they broke the rules. So this fiscal
:47:22. > :47:26.pact needs to be reinforced and in a number of ways. We need to have
:47:26. > :47:32.collective borrowing mechanisms, we need to see the EFSF, financed by
:47:32. > :47:37.the ECB, or we need to see euro bonds tpwheerbgsd proper commitment.
:47:37. > :47:41.What about the question -- we need to see proper commitment. What
:47:41. > :47:45.about the treaty change, a lot of people in your party would see it
:47:45. > :47:49.as a great chance to repatriate powers to Britain from Brussels,
:47:49. > :47:52.would that help? There are commitments to repatriateing
:47:52. > :47:55.certain powers, the Working Time Directive, that is in the coalition
:47:56. > :48:00.programme for Government F that opportunity arises, David Cameron
:48:00. > :48:07.will pursue it. We already look completely marginal, don't we. For
:48:07. > :48:16.something that is so intergral to our economic well being, the
:48:16. > :48:21.British are more or less not using? That is not true, our voice is
:48:21. > :48:25.powerful and heard and appreciated there. It is not fair to say
:48:25. > :48:31.completely marginal. If a treatyo goes ahead, Angela Merkel says she
:48:31. > :48:34.-- treaty goes ahead, Angela Merkel says she's easy about all 27 or the
:48:34. > :48:38.17 and others who want to come in, and Britain is not part of it, they
:48:38. > :48:42.are able to stitch up all sorts of things not in Britain's interests?
:48:42. > :48:45.You are thinking of potential attacks on the City of London. I
:48:45. > :48:49.think Britain needs more self- confidence and say let's win each
:48:49. > :48:52.market on its merits. George Osborne did that to fan it is
:48:52. > :48:56.particular effect in Brussels last weekend with the financial taxes
:48:56. > :49:00.act, that was clearly against British interests and he
:49:00. > :49:04.successfully batted it off. Do you share the confidence? It is the
:49:04. > :49:07.right way to go. Britain should really spend its political fire
:49:07. > :49:12.power where its interests lies, that is keeping the single market
:49:12. > :49:14.whole and free. Making an intelligence argument on financial
:49:14. > :49:20.services and regulation of financial services in Europe. Not
:49:20. > :49:25.when, at a time when the Europeans are defending the euro, which is an
:49:25. > :49:31.extension interest of those countries that are in --
:49:31. > :49:35.existential interest of those that are in there. And not as the
:49:35. > :49:42.British Prime Minister and go I'm talking about the European Working
:49:42. > :49:45.Time Directive, that will not go well there. We can't get those
:49:45. > :49:49.powers back? Perhaps at this time I wouldn't use that vexing moment in
:49:49. > :49:52.Europe to talk about something that is narrowly in the interests of
:49:53. > :49:56.Britain in Europe. What do you regard as this vexing moment?
:49:56. > :49:59.Government has been supportive for further progress towards fiscal
:49:59. > :50:02.union, the fiscal pact is something that George Osborne and David
:50:02. > :50:05.Cameron have been pushing for solidly for the past three months.
:50:06. > :50:15.It will be very much welcomed. Thank you very much. Some of
:50:16. > :50:47.
:50:47. > :50:50.We have learned more about how seriously or otherwise the
:50:50. > :50:54.Government takes austerity today. David Cameron is planning to double
:50:54. > :51:01.the amount of money spent on the ceremonies for the Olympics next
:51:01. > :51:05.year, total is now �81 million. The last time London hosted the
:51:05. > :51:09.Olympics, the whole games cost less than three quarters of a million.
:51:09. > :51:12.Competitors brought their own towels, and the highlight of the
:51:13. > :51:22.opening ceremony was the release of several thousand pigeons. That is
:51:23. > :51:39.
:51:39. > :51:44.several thousand pigeons. That is austerity, good night.
:51:44. > :51:48.Winter has arrived, that's for sure. It is an icey night. Particularly
:51:48. > :51:51.across more northern parts of the country. The Met Office has issued
:51:51. > :52:01.a yellow warning to naebgt. Icey services around, with the showers
:52:01. > :52:04.
:52:04. > :52:08.Some showers getting into parts of the Midlands, East Anglia and the
:52:08. > :52:13.south-east too. Rather more cloud around, with the greater chance of
:52:13. > :52:15.the odd shower. Plenty more dryer weather out there. Showers for
:52:15. > :52:19.South-West England, temperatures seven or eight. It will be tempered
:52:19. > :52:24.by the breeze. Not exactly warm out there. To the ee of the hills
:52:24. > :52:31.across Wales, probably a -- to the east of the hills across Wales,
:52:31. > :52:36.probably lengthier dryer spells. After an icey night a cold day.
:52:36. > :52:42.Showers turning widespread as we end the day. Snow across Scotland,
:52:42. > :52:45.fewer showers before tomorrow night, we will see snow spreading across
:52:45. > :52:48.Scotland. Across northern areas sunshine as well. A big change in
:52:48. > :52:52.the weather on Thursday, wet weather also spreading across
:52:52. > :52:57.southern areas on Thursday, temperatures temporarily bouncing