:00:08. > :00:11.Tonight, as we go on air, the late nice horse trading and briefing has
:00:11. > :00:16.begun in Brussels. It is the most perilous moment for the European
:00:16. > :00:19.Union, since it was founded as the great bulwark against future
:00:19. > :00:24.war.forged out of post-war Europe. But do today's leaders really have
:00:24. > :00:25.a plan that can save us from what Sarkozy described today as Europe
:00:25. > :00:30.Sarkozy described today as Europe exploding.
:00:30. > :00:36.Home to a welcome he will never forget. David Cameron said he will
:00:36. > :00:40.wield the veto to protect Britain's interest, already two of his
:00:40. > :00:44.backbenchers offensively compared him to Neville Chamberlain, who
:00:44. > :00:47.appeased Hitler. We will be live at the summit and with politicians and
:00:47. > :00:50.bankers from across Europe. Also today, extreme weather ripped
:00:50. > :00:55.through Scotland and northern England, shutting schools,
:00:55. > :00:59.businesses and bridges and airports, with winds up to 165 miles an hour.
:00:59. > :01:03.Later in the programme we will be joined by John Prescott, just back
:01:03. > :01:06.from the climate change conference in Durban, to discuss with the
:01:06. > :01:13.climate minister whether politicians are blowing cold on
:01:13. > :01:20.their global warming commitments. Do you know this voice?
:01:20. > :01:27.butterflies, high-flyers on high winds, invisible to us they plane
:01:27. > :01:32.and soar. Beyond our minds' troubled conventioning. The man
:01:32. > :01:42.described as the greatest living poet, who has given a rare
:01:42. > :01:46.
:01:46. > :01:50.interview to Newsnight. Europe is a maelstrom, and tonight
:01:50. > :01:54.Angela Merkel warned that national interests and egos have to be put
:01:54. > :01:57.aside. Straight away there was discord when President Sarkozy and
:01:57. > :02:02.Angela Merkel failed to agree David Cameron's demands for protection
:02:02. > :02:08.for financial services in support of a new treaty. The mood music
:02:08. > :02:13.from the European Central Bank, Mario Draghi, didn't lift spirits
:02:13. > :02:18.today, he revealed the bank wouldn't be stepping up to buy
:02:18. > :02:21.bonds any time soon. Once a dream to some, the prospect of a
:02:21. > :02:26.disunited Europe could be a nightmare. We're in Brussels. What
:02:26. > :02:29.is the latest you are hearing? latest is they have finished dinner,
:02:29. > :02:33.that has taken the usual form of people delivering their prepared
:02:33. > :02:38.views, as it were, now they are getting into the more serious face-
:02:38. > :02:43.to-face negotiations. This is either the sixth or eighth of the
:02:43. > :02:45.save the euro summit, depending on how you wish to count them. It is
:02:45. > :02:51.interesting how the rhetorical handle has to be cranked each time,
:02:51. > :02:55.to suggest the end of the world is nigh. There really is a very
:02:55. > :02:59.serious crisis out there hearing some of the language used by
:02:59. > :03:03.President Sarkozy today, it went to new rhetorical extremes, talking
:03:03. > :03:07.about the disintegration of the whole European project. It is
:03:07. > :03:11.interesting that it isth seems to be the feeling that kind of
:03:11. > :03:16.language is necessary, in order to get some of the leaders here to
:03:16. > :03:20.focus, to set aside, certain national priorities in the common
:03:20. > :03:24.good. And the very fact that this has been going on for as long as it
:03:24. > :03:28.has, in the view of many bankers and diplomats, drawing out the
:03:28. > :03:31.crisis and making it cost a lot more to solve, is evidence of
:03:31. > :03:36.profound dysfunction at the heart of the European Union, and in that
:03:36. > :03:42.sense, some of the rhetoric about how this is the most serious crisis
:03:42. > :03:46.since the organisation came into being, does seem to have foundation.
:03:46. > :03:51.Two-speed Europe, the term has been bandied about before, but the
:03:51. > :03:57.divide between those in and out of the euro is deepening. The
:03:57. > :03:59.formation of the European Economic Community in 1957 was meant to stop
:03:59. > :04:05.nationalism destroying the continent again.
:04:05. > :04:08.And to bring unity in its wake. But today, national interest appears to
:04:08. > :04:11.condition responses to the euro crisis.
:04:11. > :04:17.The people of Europe, the Governments of Europe, really, have
:04:17. > :04:21.got to come to terms with that, that a degree of integration, maybe
:04:21. > :04:25.something like the degree we have got, or maybe a little bit less
:04:25. > :04:30.than that, but a degree of integration can be made to work.
:04:30. > :04:35.But the ever-closer union, and to eventually have political unity,
:04:35. > :04:42.although of a federal nature, that is not going to happen.
:04:42. > :04:48.So the leaders convened tonight for their umpteen th attempt to resolve
:04:48. > :04:51.the European crisis, Chancellor Merkel of Germany was pushing her
:04:51. > :04:55.wishes of further fiscal integration with treaty changes.
:04:55. > :04:59.TRANSLATION: What is important to me is the euro will get back its
:04:59. > :05:02.credibility and we can change the treaties in a way that will help
:05:03. > :05:06.the euro lead us into a stable future. She and President Nicolas
:05:06. > :05:11.Sarkozy, have hammered out a measure of agreement between them,
:05:11. > :05:14.and say they will push ahead with just the 17 eurozone countries, if
:05:14. > :05:19.need be. They could be trying to intimidate Britain and other
:05:19. > :05:21.outsiders from getting in the way. For the UK then, the dilemma now is
:05:21. > :05:27.how to protect national interests from the margins.
:05:27. > :05:33.It is about making sure that the UK is in the room when decisions on
:05:33. > :05:37.the single market are taken, that goes beyond the City of London and
:05:37. > :05:42.the financial sector, it is about pushing forward with a common
:05:42. > :05:46.energy policy, a single digital market. No, no, no. Of course,
:05:46. > :05:51.Margaret Thatcher wasn't afraid of standing in the way of federal
:05:51. > :05:55.Europe, in fact, she revelled in it. That didn't result in exclusion,
:05:55. > :05:57.and indeed, many Conservatives were not afraid of being kept out of
:05:57. > :06:03.certain European conversations any way.
:06:03. > :06:09.As for Cameron being isolated, neither here nor there, the Foreign
:06:09. > :06:11.Office is always wet, they hate being isolate -- isolated, they
:06:11. > :06:15.hate discussions going on in any room where they are not present.
:06:15. > :06:18.The best thing is not to be present in the meetings, you don't want to
:06:19. > :06:23.be worried about that sort of thing. For David Cameron, the desire not
:06:23. > :06:26.to be painted as the summit's wrecker will be balanced by the
:06:26. > :06:30.home political advantage that he may gain from being seen as a
:06:30. > :06:33.defender of national interests. But that's not so different from the
:06:33. > :06:36.others. Everyone wants different things,
:06:36. > :06:40.sometimes it is like playing chess against 26 different people, rather
:06:40. > :06:43.than just one person, I'm not that good at chess any way, I will be
:06:43. > :06:48.doing my best for Britain, and I hope, if we get a good deal, that
:06:48. > :06:52.will be good for Britain f I can't get what I want, I will have no
:06:52. > :06:56.hesitation in vetoing a treaty at 27, I'm not going to go to Brussels
:06:56. > :07:01.and not stand up for our country. For decades, European vision rees
:07:01. > :07:05.extoled an ever-closer process of integration, in which national
:07:05. > :07:09.differences would be subsumed in the common interest, and the
:07:09. > :07:17.members of the EU would stand so close together that their positions
:07:17. > :07:23.would become almost intis tinge girbable., -- indistinguishable.
:07:23. > :07:26.But national leaderships are answerable to this lot, national
:07:26. > :07:30.electorates. There have been many points in the past where national
:07:30. > :07:33.interests and that of the EU have come into conflict. What has
:07:33. > :07:37.happened recently is the economic crisis has exacerbated those
:07:37. > :07:41.tensions, and this week, even countries that aspire to leadership
:07:41. > :07:45.of the wider block, France and Germany, have been forced to
:07:45. > :07:50.acknowledge that unity could crumble and that a two or even
:07:50. > :07:53.multispeed Europe may result. In the fight to save the single
:07:53. > :07:56.currency, German national interests have remained at the forefront,
:07:56. > :08:02.quite quit, you might say, given how much of the bill they are
:08:02. > :08:05.paying. But one reason that the eurozone crisis has grown so severe,
:08:05. > :08:09.is national concerns have frustrated common action. Firstly,
:08:09. > :08:16.I think euro-sceptics in our country make the mistake that they
:08:16. > :08:20.seem to think that British separatisim means we are the only
:08:20. > :08:24.ones standing up for the national interest. In all European
:08:24. > :08:28.negotiations every member-state stands up for their national
:08:28. > :08:33.interest, they have to all answer their own electorate. Chancellor
:08:33. > :08:38.Merkel is in that position and is that is why's in a difficult
:08:38. > :08:43.position. What might the community's kounders make of the
:08:43. > :08:51.summit -- founders make of the summit. Given the sluggish way the
:08:51. > :08:55.eurocrisis has been dealt with, they might vau depressing
:08:55. > :08:58.conclusions. We know there was an early rebuff with the meeting
:08:58. > :09:02.between Angela Merkel and Nicolas Sarkozy and David Cameron tonight.
:09:02. > :09:05.What is the position tonight? of reTateing their position. The
:09:05. > :09:11.centralish -- restating their position. The central issue that
:09:11. > :09:15.has to be solved in the UK context is that of trying to drive away the
:09:15. > :09:18.proposal tabled earlier this week by the French and Germans, of
:09:18. > :09:21.harmonising tax arrangements, with the idea of a financial
:09:21. > :09:24.transactions tax. That is clearly something the UK regards as being
:09:24. > :09:31.dangerous, potentially to the City and its position in global finance.
:09:31. > :09:34.In a way, you can say, that finding some sort of language, that allows
:09:34. > :09:38.David Cameron to let the eurozone people do the core business their
:09:38. > :09:45.way, and safeguard the UK national interest, is not the most difficult
:09:45. > :09:48.of the problems that this summit faces. At its core are these
:09:48. > :09:52.different distinctive positions of Germany and France about how this
:09:52. > :09:55.issue should be solved. We have heard earlier this evening that
:09:55. > :10:02.some language put forward in a draft document, that put forward a
:10:02. > :10:06.way through this one could say in a way more friendly to the French
:10:06. > :10:10.position, or tried to bridge the gap and create this big bazooka
:10:11. > :10:14.that people are talking about, this Stability Mechanism, bring it
:10:14. > :10:18.forward, the implementation of it, and allow, through it, the Central
:10:18. > :10:21.Bank to play more of a role in stablising the whole situation.
:10:21. > :10:25.That was put forward and has been rejected out of hand by Germany.
:10:25. > :10:28.That is what's reported. It is simply the case that their
:10:28. > :10:32.opposition to using the Central Bank as the lender of last resort,
:10:32. > :10:35.and the policeman, if you like, is so fundamental, they will not
:10:35. > :10:41.compromise that point. Those are the real core issues around those
:10:41. > :10:44.types of issue. In that context, the British problem, it is a
:10:44. > :10:54.significant one, clearly domestically and in party political
:10:54. > :10:55.
:10:55. > :10:59.terms a very significant one for Mr Cameron, it ought to be solable.
:10:59. > :11:04.We were talking about Angela Merkel's opposition to the ECB
:11:04. > :11:07.being a lender of last resort. What was the mood music coming from
:11:07. > :11:11.Mario Draghi, that he wouldn't be coming up with any more any time
:11:11. > :11:16.soon? He has done some tactics, he has cut interest rates to a quarter
:11:16. > :11:20.of a per cent. One FT journalist commented that is a quarter of a
:11:20. > :11:23.per cent less insane than it was before. Many observers thought they
:11:23. > :11:27.were crazy to raise interest rates, they have pumped a lot of money
:11:27. > :11:33.into the European banking system which relaxing rules. These are
:11:33. > :11:37.tactics, aggressive tactics adopted in the face of what? The German
:11:37. > :11:40.banking system needs another eight billion, the banking system is
:11:40. > :11:43.shaky with no strategy. The European Central Bank boss said
:11:43. > :11:48.today, we are not even going to try to get around the treaty. We are
:11:48. > :11:52.just not going to lend money to countries. That is the big stick
:11:52. > :11:56.that is being waved over the delegates' heads now tonight in
:11:56. > :12:00.that building. What exactly will the ECB be looking for, how does
:12:00. > :12:04.that fit? If they say we are not doing it, that makes the European
:12:04. > :12:11.Union have to, or the eurozone have to become a fiscal union before
:12:11. > :12:17.they can. I think, for the owe fish nad doughs of the build -- owe fish
:12:17. > :12:21.nad doughs of these dofficionados of the building, it is swinging
:12:21. > :12:25.back to a fund position, a fund where tax-payers in Europe are
:12:25. > :12:29.being exposed, rather than being exposed via the Central Bank. That
:12:29. > :12:33.is what they are working on, who knows if tomorrow night we will be
:12:33. > :12:37.swinging back to where the markets want us to be, which is the ECB,
:12:37. > :12:41.lender of last resort. David Cameron had barely arrived in
:12:41. > :12:45.Brussels when some of his backbenchers were Jacobiteing at
:12:45. > :12:51.Westminster. Two Conservative MPs even compared him to Neville
:12:51. > :12:55.Chamberlain, who, of course, tried to appease Hitler. We have had
:12:55. > :12:58.enough of reading of British Prime Ministers over the last 20 or 30
:12:58. > :13:01.years, in the days preceding a summit, that they would indeed
:13:01. > :13:06.stand up for British national interests, that they would ensure
:13:06. > :13:12.that our interests are protected. Excuse me. I will give way. And
:13:12. > :13:16.then, coming back from a summit, with a kind of Chamberlainesque
:13:16. > :13:19.piece of paper, saying I have negotiated very, very hard, I got
:13:19. > :13:23.opt-out from this and that, and I have succeeded in standing up for
:13:23. > :13:30.British interests, and that piece of paper is not worth the paper it
:13:30. > :13:34.is written on. That was Edward Leigh. David Grossman, evoking this
:13:34. > :13:38.period in history is incredibly shocking? Number Ten have called it
:13:38. > :13:41.offensive and ridiculous, not just for David Cameron shown as the
:13:41. > :13:50.apieceer, but other people in the scenario are the person being
:13:50. > :13:54.appeased, the Hitler figure. A number of backbenchers are in
:13:54. > :14:00.conflict with their leader over Europe. Why does this happen? It is
:14:01. > :14:05.simple. The concessions to real politic at the top are more than
:14:05. > :14:09.you can stomach. The euro-sceptics, like Edward Leigh and others who
:14:09. > :14:12.spoke in the Westminster Hall debate, feel utterly vindicated by
:14:12. > :14:16.what has happened in the eurozone. All the predictions they made and
:14:16. > :14:20.warnings they gave. They were called lunatics at the time, and
:14:20. > :14:23.yet they feel utterly vindicated by what has happened. What is worrying
:14:23. > :14:26.for David Cameron in all of this, is the mistrust of the European
:14:26. > :14:29.project has spread to him. Why? I could give you loads of examples
:14:29. > :14:33.why they feel let down by him. I will give you one. Back in October
:14:33. > :14:37.when they were told not to vote for a referendum, they were told, don't
:14:37. > :14:41.worry, I will go to Europe, they will have to renegotiate a treaty
:14:41. > :14:44.and I will then use that as an opportunity to exercise our might
:14:44. > :14:48.in that scenario, and repatriate powers. Now they are told, now's
:14:48. > :14:52.not the time. It would almost be rude for us to do that. In that
:14:52. > :14:56.case, what do the euro-sceptics and the backbenchers do next? If there
:14:56. > :15:00.is Anne greeplt, and hearing from Mark it is not clear -- an
:15:00. > :15:04.agreement, and hearing from Mark it is not clear, they will scrutinise
:15:04. > :15:08.it before the Commons statement and next Thursday, I hear, that the DUP
:15:08. > :15:11.might be using their opposition day debate maybe to make a bit of
:15:11. > :15:14.mischief. We will see what motion they put down and how many
:15:14. > :15:18.Conservatives attempt to vote for it. We will be hearing again
:15:18. > :15:22.towards the programme from Mark on the latest developments. Is this
:15:23. > :15:26.likely to be the start of a whole new Europe. Joining me now to
:15:26. > :15:29.discuss it is the former principal economist at the European Central
:15:29. > :15:39.Bank, and the British Conservative MEP, Sophie Hannah, and from
:15:39. > :15:45.Brussels, I'm joined by cash Cash, I'm joined by my guests here in
:15:45. > :15:48.Brussels and in the studio. Do you distance yourself from any
:15:48. > :15:52.idea that there is a Chamberlainesque moment for David
:15:52. > :15:57.Cameron, do you think an apology is necessary? You should be very
:15:57. > :16:01.careful in this game of making ridiculous parallels, which damage
:16:01. > :16:06.your case. The only parallel that I think would be a fair one is the
:16:06. > :16:10.whole country, the whole establishment was backing the wrong
:16:10. > :16:15.policy the CBI and the TUC, the European thing is falling to pieces,
:16:15. > :16:20.to go beyond that and imply we are dealing with Hitler is ridiculous.
:16:20. > :16:24.You think they both should apology guise, on the record? I think if
:16:24. > :16:27.you listen to what he said, he didn't said David Cameron was like
:16:27. > :16:31.Hitler, if that was his intention I'm sure he would want to take that
:16:31. > :16:36.back. Tell me, you have been listening to what David Grossman
:16:36. > :16:40.was saying here, this whole era, this whole way of talking about
:16:40. > :16:46.Germany, it is very dangerous, isn't it? Do you know, first of all,
:16:46. > :16:49.I think the whole era of talking about this has split -- and these
:16:49. > :16:52.splits in the Tory Party is missing the point. Talking about Cameron
:16:52. > :16:55.and the backbenchers, backbenchers reflect what their constituents
:16:55. > :16:59.want them to do, the reason they are concerned about this, is
:16:59. > :17:09.because the people who are coming to their surgeries are telling them.
:17:09. > :17:09.
:17:10. > :17:13.It is not just Conservatives, all parties supporters are angry about
:17:13. > :17:19.how power has gone out to Europe. Do you think a deal can be reached
:17:19. > :17:25.in the next 48 hours? I just pick up firstly on that last point about
:17:25. > :17:28.democracy, these are the elected leaders of 27 democracies. It is
:17:28. > :17:32.not technocrats, they are elected and accountable leaders, coming
:17:32. > :17:36.together to try to deal with a common problem. In particular the
:17:36. > :17:39.problem of excessive debt in a certain number of countries that
:17:39. > :17:46.risks destablising the system in the eurozone and beyond. That is
:17:46. > :17:49.what they are here to do. Richard n Italy and Greece elected prime
:17:49. > :17:52.ministers have been toppled in favour of technocrats. That is what
:17:52. > :17:56.the system has come to, in order to keep it together you have a
:17:56. > :18:01.national Government with the sole purpose of doing what Europe tells
:18:01. > :18:05.it to. Dan, you know perfectly well that the Greek Government was
:18:05. > :18:09.toppled by the Greek political system, the Greek parliament, which
:18:09. > :18:13.elected a new Prime Minister, the same in Italy. Nobody in any other
:18:13. > :18:20.country can impose a Government on one of the fellow members of the
:18:20. > :18:23.European Union. That is a myth. Having sorted that out, my original
:18:23. > :18:29.question, do you think there can be some sort of deal, the bones of a
:18:29. > :18:32.new treaty, worked out in the next 48 hours? I think they are work on
:18:32. > :18:36.a package, some elements will involve decisions that can be taken
:18:36. > :18:40.immediately on the basis of the existing treaties. Other decisions,
:18:40. > :18:47.probably remember a treaty amendment and will take a longer
:18:47. > :18:52.period of time. -- it is about which elements require a
:18:52. > :18:56.fundamental change to the treaty. Will it lead to a two-speed Europe,
:18:56. > :19:01.will there be the 17 and then the 10 at the moment? On questions
:19:01. > :19:04.relating to the currency we already have 17 countries that share a
:19:04. > :19:08.currency and ten that don't. It is natural those who share a currency
:19:08. > :19:11.have to take some decisions together. They may want to take
:19:11. > :19:15.more decisions together or impose more disciplines on themselves.
:19:15. > :19:18.That doesn't detract from the rest of what the European Union does.
:19:18. > :19:22.Even in the economic sphere, the bulk of policy making will be at
:19:22. > :19:26.the level of the 27. Trade policy, competition policy, the common
:19:26. > :19:30.rules for our Common Market, the world's largest single market,
:19:31. > :19:36.which is so important for all of us. Let's deal with this. All that is a
:19:36. > :19:43.matter for the 27. For the 17, it is perfectly possible the 17 could
:19:43. > :19:46.agree a deal on a new fiscal rules, a new way of working without David
:19:46. > :19:49.Cameron having any say so, that is the fact isn't it? I don't think so.
:19:49. > :19:52.If you speak to anyone in the hall they tell you there is no prospect
:19:52. > :19:57.of that. It would be the same as with the Social Chapter and other
:19:57. > :20:00.things, the idea that they would start from scratch now, with a
:20:00. > :20:04.completely new legal structure, new institutions, hiring new staff, at
:20:04. > :20:07.the same time we are told we have to do this tomorrow because of the
:20:07. > :20:13.immediacy of the crisis, simply not the case. Britain has an incredibly
:20:13. > :20:16.strong position. If I'm wrong about that and the 17 will go ahead and
:20:16. > :20:20.form a European economic Government in Richard's phrase, that is surely
:20:20. > :20:24.good for Britain. It would mean the political bits of integration would
:20:24. > :20:28.shift to the 17, leaving the EU as much more of a free trade area,
:20:28. > :20:33.that is what my constituents would feel much more in accordance with
:20:33. > :20:39.our national interest. All of this is predicated on a number of things,
:20:39. > :20:43.being a former ECB banker, picking up on what Paul Mason was saying,
:20:43. > :20:49.this is put together so ECB can take a bigger role and be the
:20:49. > :20:53.lender of last resort? It does go together. If tonight or tomorrow we
:20:53. > :20:58.hear about a move to stricter fiscal rules, it would give some
:20:58. > :21:02.rules for the ECB to intervene more specifically in the bond markets.
:21:02. > :21:05.What we heard from Mr Draghi today that they are not ready yet to be a
:21:05. > :21:09.fully fledged lender of last resort here in the UK, from the Bank of
:21:09. > :21:13.England, or in the US from the Federal Reserve. If there were
:21:13. > :21:19.credible fiscal rules the ECB would be ameanable to do more than it has
:21:19. > :21:23.so far. What about the idea of a separate fund, a taxpayer-funded
:21:23. > :21:27.fund? Mr Draghi seems to have ruled that out, he didn't seem in favour.
:21:27. > :21:31.The idea of this would be, especially if the IMF is involved,
:21:31. > :21:34.then we get the conditionality, that this money is only released if
:21:34. > :21:39.Governments do respect some objectives, which is one of the
:21:39. > :21:42.main issues with the ECB, that it doesn't want to bail out
:21:42. > :21:47.Governments. But coming to you again on that, there would have to
:21:47. > :21:53.be new rules, wouldn't there, for the ECB to become the lender of
:21:53. > :21:57.last resort? The ECB is the lender of last resort to banks already.
:21:57. > :22:01.Qet is whether it can buy up Government debt. Remember it is an
:22:01. > :22:05.independent bank, politicians can't tell it what to do. Though it does
:22:05. > :22:10.take its own decisions by majority vote, internally, by the way, there
:22:10. > :22:14.is no veto here, as to what it should do. In function of the wider
:22:14. > :22:18.economic and political situation. I'm sure if a deal is reached now,
:22:18. > :22:23.it will make it easier for the bank to do something. This is all about
:22:23. > :22:27.getting the bank to become involved directly, isn't it? That is the
:22:27. > :22:32.bottom line? To become more involved. It already is to a degree,
:22:32. > :22:37.as you know. But actually, you know, this has to happen, doesn't it?
:22:37. > :22:41.This is yet another bank bailout. This is yet another tax on ordinary
:22:41. > :22:45.people, to rescue some very wealthy individuals from the consequences
:22:45. > :22:48.of their own bad investments. We began by bailing out banks, now
:22:48. > :22:52.whole countries, whether through a fund or printing money, it is all
:22:52. > :22:57.the same thing. The EU has responded to this crisis at every
:22:57. > :23:00.step with the same policy, bailout and borrow, you don't help an
:23:01. > :23:05.indebted friend by pressing more loans on them. The other member
:23:05. > :23:08.states of the EU are indeed lending money to those countries that have
:23:08. > :23:13.excessive deficits and having problems borrowing, to give them
:23:13. > :23:17.time to turn the corner. They are treating a debt crisis with more
:23:17. > :23:21.debt. It is not tax-payers' money or grants, it is loans, with rate
:23:21. > :23:30.of interest, so the countries get their money back with interest.
:23:31. > :23:35.Every time that policy fails... plea come in. If the EC -- Marie
:23:35. > :23:40.come in. If the ECB doesn't come in there is no point in a change to
:23:40. > :23:45.the treaty? The ECB is the only institute that can do something now.
:23:45. > :23:49.So all the cards are in Mario Draghi's hands moment? They act
:23:49. > :23:53.together, the ECB takes into account what Governments agree on.
:23:53. > :23:58.The fiscal rules are medium term, not an impact tomorrow. Let's look
:23:58. > :24:03.at a possible outcome, would you like to see a deal done in Europe?
:24:03. > :24:06.If that deal means sacrificing the prosperity of the eurozone states
:24:06. > :24:10.to the maintenance of the single currency, then I think that would
:24:10. > :24:14.be worse than the alternative. I think we now need an orderly
:24:15. > :24:19.unbundling of the euro, we need to recognise the monetary union is the
:24:19. > :24:22.disease rather than the cure and in keeping it together we are treating
:24:22. > :24:25.the tumour rather than the patient. We will have more from the summit
:24:25. > :24:28.later in the programme, as the leaders, we hope, start to give
:24:28. > :24:31.their press conferences. In a moment we will be talking
:24:31. > :24:36.about the very heavy weather in Scotland and the north of England.
:24:36. > :24:40.Today it has been making headlines, and there is a red alert at the Met
:24:40. > :24:44.Office, in a far off, much warmer country, talks about climate change,
:24:44. > :24:47.which end tomorrow, have been less prominent on the radar. With little
:24:48. > :24:52.sign of movement from the key players in Durban in South Africa
:24:52. > :24:58.over the last ten days, and with the Keothavong agreement due to
:24:58. > :25:07.come to -- Kyoto agreement due to come to an end next year. In a
:25:07. > :25:13.moment I will put that to Lord Prescott, who negotiated the Kyoto
:25:13. > :25:17.deal, and my other guest, now my science editor is with me now.
:25:17. > :25:21.This is the point where the real negotiation begins with ministers.
:25:21. > :25:25.There are some signs of progress. Just to remind you, climate
:25:25. > :25:28.scientists will tell you if politicians want it avoid the worst
:25:28. > :25:33.effects of climate change, emissions need to peak by 2020 and
:25:33. > :25:37.then start to fall. Looking back two years ago to Copenhagen, the
:25:37. > :25:40.broad aim of finding a global agreement with legally binding cuts
:25:40. > :25:46.in emissions, that is not really what they are talking about here.
:25:46. > :25:49.The aim is to find something beyond the first phase of Kyoto, it won't
:25:49. > :25:54.happen in Durban, negotiators are playing a longer game now. America
:25:54. > :25:59.is taking a tough position tonight. The EU has said it will agrow to a
:25:59. > :26:03.second phase of Kyoto, beyond the first phase of Kyoto, if China and
:26:03. > :26:08.the basic countries, the other countries, Brazil, South Africa and
:26:08. > :26:12.India, if they agree now, that they will at some point, sign up to
:26:12. > :26:17.legally binding targets. There is some talk of China signing up. On
:26:17. > :26:20.money too there is movement. This fund to help developing countries
:26:20. > :26:25.to cope with climate change, it is already processed, at this point it
:26:25. > :26:28.is about who will get on to which committee rather than how the money
:26:28. > :26:33.could reach vulnerable countries. Do you sense a change in mood and a
:26:33. > :26:38.backing off as far as the UK is concerned? There is no tried and
:26:38. > :26:42.trusted technique for moving to a low-carbon economy. That is the
:26:42. > :26:46.problem. In times of economic gloom it is even harder to persuade
:26:46. > :26:50.people that is a shift that is worth making. Some of the
:26:50. > :26:53.coalition's messages on this have become muddy. This began with the
:26:53. > :26:58.Chancellor, George Osborne's speech at the party conference, tauing
:26:58. > :27:03.about moving away from this idea of vote blue, go green, what he said
:27:03. > :27:08.then was the UK would cut carbon emissions no slower but no faster
:27:08. > :27:13.than fellow countries in Europe. In the Autumn Statement, choose to go
:27:13. > :27:15.compensate heavy industry for some of the costs of climate change
:27:15. > :27:20.policies, and labels environmental policies as a burden to British
:27:20. > :27:24.Industry. Those calling for a shift to the low carbon economy will say
:27:24. > :27:28.the mixed message is not needed to inspire confidence in investors,
:27:28. > :27:32.you won't get the money even if you have the skills and technologies.
:27:32. > :27:38.Amongst consumers there is a signs there is a paling of enthusiasm for
:27:38. > :27:43.green matters. There was a survey out yesterday, the British Social
:27:43. > :27:46.Attitudes Survey. The results showed 37% of people surveyed think
:27:46. > :27:51.that many of the claims about environmental threats are
:27:51. > :27:54.exaggerated. That is up from 24% ten years ago. 26% of people are
:27:54. > :27:57.saying they would be willing to pay higher prices to protect
:27:57. > :28:03.environment, down from 43% a decade ago.
:28:03. > :28:07.You suggest those kind of attitude surveys, that drop there in
:28:07. > :28:10.exaggerated problems with the environment, means people are less
:28:10. > :28:13.persuaded or more pragmatic because of their pockets? Because they are
:28:13. > :28:17.talking about whether they are prepared to pay. We are seeing it
:28:17. > :28:21.in the business community, where climate change priorities are
:28:21. > :28:26.moving down the agenda. We are joined by John Prescott and Greg
:28:26. > :28:31.Barker joining us from Durban. Do you sense an attitude change in the
:28:31. > :28:34.UK? No, I think the UK are making a strong argument, actually, for
:28:34. > :28:41.keeping the Europeans on-line with getting a proper agreement on the
:28:41. > :28:44.second period of Kyoto. I did the meeting with him and the Chinese
:28:44. > :28:48.negotiator, it was clear, I think they are moving towards an
:28:48. > :28:54.agreement. What is the agreement? One, to recognise that the values
:28:54. > :28:58.and the principles embodied in Kyoto II, will continue, and
:28:58. > :29:03.therefore up to 2015, under the Cancun principles, we are working
:29:03. > :29:06.in that direction. When you look at the change in mood in George
:29:06. > :29:11.Osborne's statement, that basically, doesn't want environmental matters
:29:11. > :29:17.to be a burden to British businesses and he's also given a
:29:17. > :29:21.tax break to energy service industries. It was said that does
:29:21. > :29:27.not mean clear mood music for investors? Tombly we are moving on
:29:27. > :29:31.in terms of green economic d actually we are moving in --
:29:31. > :29:34.actually we are moving on in terms of green economics. These talks are
:29:34. > :29:38.very important. I went to Germany in September to see how Germany
:29:38. > :29:42.manages to reconcile the fact that they have the largest renewable
:29:42. > :29:47.energy sector in Europe, but are also a manufacturing powerhouse.
:29:47. > :29:54.The fact is, Germany has just as much ambition as we do, here in the
:29:54. > :30:00.UK, but, they give a total exemption to the enity-intensive
:30:00. > :30:02.industries for paying for their climate policies and renewable tax.
:30:02. > :30:06.As a result they have seen manufacturing flourish and making
:30:07. > :30:11.big steps to decash onise their economy. We need to be a little
:30:11. > :30:15.more sensible, we need to recognise...let me just finish this
:30:15. > :30:18.point. We need to recognise that it is not helping the planet if we
:30:18. > :30:24.just export jobs and businesses into other parts of the world. The
:30:24. > :30:27.really difficult, tough thing is to decarbonise your economy. But at
:30:27. > :30:32.the same time, recognise that you need to grow, advance manufacturing
:30:32. > :30:36.and retain an industrial base, it is not easy, and we need to be a
:30:36. > :30:38.more sophisticated policy to achieve that. You were the one you
:30:38. > :30:45.said yourself, you need a clear policy going forward, you are the
:30:45. > :30:48.one who said we need the low carbon economy, but what is happening is,
:30:48. > :30:53.pragmatic position, which is not clear to inward investors about
:30:53. > :30:58.what your policy is? We have got a great deal of policy. We are of
:30:58. > :31:03.course going for a slight hiatus. You are sending mixed messages?
:31:03. > :31:07.we are going through a slight hiatus because we are in a period
:31:07. > :31:10.of policy transition and electricity market reform. That
:31:10. > :31:17.will reform the electricity industry to the largest extent
:31:17. > :31:22.since privatisation in the 1980s. All driven to move us to a
:31:22. > :31:27.decarbonised basis. There is a lot in flux. What investors really want
:31:27. > :31:35.is certainty, that is why we are bringing forward things like the
:31:35. > :31:38.carbon floor price. People in times of economic need, John Prescott,
:31:38. > :31:42.don't put environmental issues as a priority, did you know that? They
:31:42. > :31:45.do need to know more. The polls showed that. We are not educating
:31:45. > :31:48.enough about the difficulty. Perhaps they don't want to know
:31:48. > :31:51.because it is too difficult? Perhaps they don't want the fear
:31:51. > :31:56.they are hearing about. What about moving to a low-carbon economy.
:31:56. > :31:59.What we have to change considerably is the way we do things. The man
:31:59. > :32:05.who produced the extreme weather report you were almost referring to
:32:05. > :32:09.there, he actually joined with me to launch a million, wait Kirsty,
:32:09. > :32:12.sometimes you have to explain this, a million homes to be lit up using
:32:12. > :32:17.solar power in India. In this country the smart metres, which the
:32:17. > :32:22.Government is actually doing to reduce the demand. Or indoing
:32:22. > :32:26.something which I found there, this is paper wine bottle, 10% less
:32:26. > :32:29.carbon in its production. We have to look at a major change in
:32:29. > :32:33.consumption and production. In the short-term, in the next two or
:32:33. > :32:38.three years, when a lot of families are facing an economic nightmare,
:32:38. > :32:41.frankly, they may in their heart of hearts believe they should do their
:32:42. > :32:45.bit, sometimes it is a bit too hard? We have to take the long-term
:32:45. > :32:47.view. What is the nature for the British economy, it has to be low
:32:48. > :32:51.carbon, there is an agreement between myself and what the
:32:51. > :32:54.Government is doing to get the targets. How do you make the
:32:54. > :32:57.transitions difficult? To tell people it is better in ten years
:32:57. > :33:02.times, we have to go on that policy. You believe the Government is doing
:33:02. > :33:06.the right thing? They are doing a number of things, cutting back on
:33:06. > :33:11.supsidies on solar we could argue about, allowing nimbus to decide if
:33:11. > :33:14.they want a windture bin, when wind is a new energy, they shouldn't
:33:14. > :33:17.allow that. There was plenty of extreme weather
:33:17. > :33:20.in the UK, there is no suggestion that climate change had anything to
:33:21. > :33:23.do with it. Right across what was once described as north Britain,
:33:24. > :33:29.Scotland, Northern Ireland, and northern England, have had, and are
:33:29. > :33:35.still having a day and night of violent storms of power outages.
:33:35. > :33:39.The disruption to schools businesses and travel was enormous.
:33:39. > :33:47.From the heavens this is what the storm looked like over Scotland
:33:47. > :33:51.early today. Down below the cold reality blew in, a normal life for
:33:51. > :33:54.hundreds of thousands of Scots was temporarily suspended. With
:33:54. > :34:00.shorelines battered and the Forth Bridge closed for most of the day.
:34:00. > :34:04.The wind force reached 165 miles per hour in the Cairngorms, 50,000
:34:04. > :34:11.people were left without power. In a decade Britain hasn't seen worse
:34:11. > :34:15.storms than this. The north of England was buffeted, the lorry was
:34:15. > :34:21.upended on the A66 in Yorkshire. Two people had to be rescued when
:34:22. > :34:27.their car was swept into the River York in Northern Ireland. In bane
:34:27. > :34:30.bridge wind were 80 miles an hour and in Wales. It was Scotland that
:34:30. > :34:36.suffered most, police advised against all travel in the centre of
:34:36. > :34:40.the country. This was Helenburgh on the Firth of Clyde, up river
:34:40. > :34:44.schools were closed north of Glasgow and the west. Consequently
:34:44. > :34:48.this school bus was empty, the driver unhurt. In Aberdeen, car
:34:48. > :34:52.owners had a lucky escape when a wall collapsed. We felt the
:34:52. > :34:59.rumbling and the bang of the building that collapsed. Very scary,
:34:59. > :35:03.we all got a scare. In Edinburgh the Hibs football
:35:03. > :35:07.training session had to be abandoned. In north Ayrshire, a
:35:07. > :35:14.wind farm burst into flames. Tomorrow, it is expected to be
:35:14. > :35:19.calmer, with snow and ice. Just before we came on air I spoke
:35:19. > :35:24.to the deputy First Minister, Nicola sturpblg sturpblg and I
:35:25. > :35:29.asked her how -- Sturg eon and asked her how bad it was? This is
:35:29. > :35:32.only the third time in ten years we have seen wind speeds like this.
:35:32. > :35:39.There is significant disruption, in all of the circumstances we have
:35:39. > :35:43.coped as well as could have been expected. Did the Resilience
:35:43. > :35:47.Committee, model from these extreme conditions? We model for various
:35:47. > :35:50.scenario, over the course of yesterday we were getting regular
:35:50. > :35:55.advice from the Met Office, the police, and took decisions based on
:35:55. > :35:59.that advice. I think the decisions we took, particularly last night,
:35:59. > :36:04.around school closures, proved today to be absolutely the right
:36:04. > :36:09.decisions. I have just come from the latest meeting of the
:36:09. > :36:12.Government Resilience Commit year, it will meet at ministerial level
:36:12. > :36:16.tomorrow morning. What about the pressure on the
:36:16. > :36:20.emergency services? The emergency services have coped extremely well
:36:20. > :36:26.today, the police have been first class as you would expect. The NHS
:36:26. > :36:31.has coped extremely well in general, there has been some damage,
:36:31. > :36:34.particularly to a hospital in Fife, that had part of its roof blown off
:36:34. > :36:37.today. Transport authorities, both road and rail, have also coped
:36:37. > :36:41.extremely well. There has been massive effort today.
:36:41. > :36:45.Just briefly, what about the impact on the economy today? That is
:36:45. > :36:50.likely to be significant. But employers have taken the right
:36:50. > :36:54.decisions, many employers allowed their staff to go home early. The
:36:54. > :37:00.public has, by and large, heeded the advise that was different, and
:37:00. > :37:03.I thank them for their patience and their forebearance. That has meant,
:37:03. > :37:08.although there is significant disruption, we have coped as well
:37:08. > :37:12.as could be expected. You say it is moving north but also blizzard
:37:12. > :37:16.conditions as well? The wind is moving north, the areas up north
:37:16. > :37:20.are likely, over the remainder of tonight and into the early hours of
:37:20. > :37:24.the morning, to see 90 miles per hour wind. Because the pefrpures
:37:24. > :37:27.will be lower, there is also -- temperatures will be lower, there
:37:27. > :37:32.is a significant risk of snow and business standard conditions, that
:37:32. > :37:36.is why we continue to monitor the situation very closely indeed.
:37:36. > :37:43.We will be live at the Brussels summit in few moments with some
:37:43. > :37:48.ministers who have just left dinner. First, poets laureate are the
:37:48. > :37:55.public's face of poetry. To raise awareness about the art. There is
:37:55. > :38:04.one poet routinely described as one the greatest writing, but whose
:38:04. > :38:13.critical acclaim supersedes his public -- sales.
:38:13. > :38:17.He rarely gives interviews, but first Steven Smith had to find him.
:38:17. > :38:24.When you are looking for England's greatest living poet, you might
:38:24. > :38:29.begin with the landscape, he so memorably described.
:38:29. > :38:33.An ancient land, full of strategy. This man's work has been called
:38:33. > :38:39."serious" even "difficult", he himself has kept a low profile,
:38:39. > :38:48.almost to the point of invisibility. All in all then, he cuts an
:38:48. > :38:57.agreably forbidding figure. It turns out all we had to do was
:38:57. > :39:05.ask, in his new house outside Cambridge, Geoffrey Hill, 79, has
:39:05. > :39:10.struck a rich seam of wrielting. have been writing -- Writing.
:39:10. > :39:14.have been writing for 60 years. Then I felt happy if I managed to
:39:14. > :39:18.write seven peoples in a year. I feel unhappy if I haven't written
:39:18. > :39:25.seven peoples in a week. Really, that is extraordinary? Yeah. What
:39:25. > :39:30.do you put that down to? I have pondered this, and I have got some
:39:30. > :39:34.very secret ideas and theories as to what it may be due to. Wild hors
:39:34. > :39:42.wouldn't drag them out of me. I will -- horses wouldn't drag them
:39:42. > :39:52.out of me. I will write it on my death bed, like an old lady
:39:52. > :39:56.
:39:56. > :40:01.donating her dand lion recipe to her -- dandolion recipe to her kin.
:40:01. > :40:07.I will put it down in the autobiography. Can I explore it?
:40:07. > :40:12.It is not to do with being happier generally? No, no. It is a mystery?
:40:12. > :40:18.It is a mystery. It is all a mystery. You know, you just won't
:40:18. > :40:25.tell me? I think I know. I think I know.
:40:25. > :40:32."as to the ant, when chance disturbs state, divisions huge,
:40:32. > :40:41.minute, crude, delicate, like egg and spoon, white grub rice grain,
:40:41. > :40:47.she works her reach with pitch and stretch, staid in that giant
:40:47. > :40:53.flesh." My reputation is that of a solemn intellectual. Really I'm a
:40:53. > :41:01.kind of rip roaring fantasist. I like getting on to a bench and
:41:02. > :41:05.standing on one leg. In fact,the current Oxford Professor of Poetry,
:41:05. > :41:10.credits a perhaps unlikely influence on his work. I was in a
:41:10. > :41:15.shop in Leeds the other morning, said excuse me can you help me out,
:41:15. > :41:21.he said, sure which way did you come in. I allowed my love of the
:41:21. > :41:27.comedians to get into my poetry. future scolars of your work, should
:41:27. > :41:31.have your stuff open on the one land and Ken Dodd and Frankie
:41:31. > :41:37.Howard's material on hand. They would see a connection. I hope so,
:41:37. > :41:43.yes, I will leave a lot of heavy hints. The way a comic will often
:41:43. > :41:47.think to stregs the grammatically unimportant -- stress the
:41:47. > :41:54.grammatically unimportant words. It brings out a quite equisite sense
:41:54. > :41:59.of the individuality breaking through the formula.
:41:59. > :42:03.Why haven't we heard more from Geoffrey Hill, the Bard of an
:42:03. > :42:06.arkaiback Albion, we have simply been looking the wrong way. He has
:42:06. > :42:12.plenty to say on Shakespeare and rap, for example.
:42:12. > :42:17.From my relatively marginal experience of that, I don't think
:42:17. > :42:22.any of the rappers I have heard, have the potential of great poetry
:42:22. > :42:30.in them. I think that Shakespeare of this century, would certainly,
:42:30. > :42:40.would certainly learn from rap, yes. "the butterflies, high flyers on
:42:40. > :42:42.
:42:42. > :42:45.high winds, invisible to us, they plane and soar. Beyond our minds'
:42:45. > :42:54.troubled conventioning, and do not err.
:42:54. > :43:04.What do you hope to do with the professorship of poetry? I welcome
:43:04. > :43:09.
:43:10. > :43:15.the opportunity to go over, once a term, and perform one thousandth as
:43:15. > :43:21.well as Ken Dodd! I think he just might manage that. We go back to
:43:22. > :43:26.the summit in Brussels. Mark has grabbed a guest.
:43:26. > :43:31.Yes I have Lucinda Creighton, the Irish Europe minister, who has just
:43:31. > :43:34.come from inside the negotiations, is the atmosphere behind there, as
:43:34. > :43:40.they say in diplomatic speak, business like, is it a frank
:43:40. > :43:45.discussion going on there? Most certainly. I think at the outside
:43:45. > :43:51.there was a mood of deep concern, quite frankly, over the course of
:43:52. > :43:58.the day, and obviously we came, myself and our Taoiseach from the
:43:58. > :44:02.EPB summit in Marseille directly to Brussels, it was clear there was a
:44:02. > :44:07.wide divergance of views. Now, I think, from what I'm hearing this
:44:07. > :44:11.evening, leaders are moving closer together, and they seem to be a
:44:11. > :44:17.little bit more upbeat and a bit more optimistic this evening.
:44:17. > :44:20.what point in a summit like this, do people move past these opening
:44:20. > :44:24.salvos, these positions and really begin to drill down. Do you see
:44:24. > :44:28.evidence already occurring tonight, or will it all happen tomorrow?
:44:28. > :44:31.think there will be progress tonight. I suppose at what stage in
:44:31. > :44:38.the night I'm not sure. Certainly I think when it gets after midnight
:44:38. > :44:42.people get down to business and want to start moving forward. The
:44:42. > :44:46.soundings we are hearing from the meeting room tonight is that is
:44:46. > :44:50.what is happening. It is business like, they are going through the
:44:50. > :44:55.texts of proposals from Herman Van Rompuy, teasing out the issues and
:44:55. > :45:00.findings areas where they can find common ground. Briefly, Irish
:45:00. > :45:05.concerns about the possible fraings transfers tax, similar to the UK.
:45:05. > :45:08.Is that a done deal or is it still possible for the UK and Ireland to
:45:08. > :45:13.knock it out of the picture? don't think it is a done deal,
:45:13. > :45:17.there are more than just the UK and Ireland, there are a lot of member
:45:17. > :45:20.states with concerns about the tax proposal. From Ireland's
:45:20. > :45:25.prospective, we would certainly not like to be separated from the kufpl
:45:25. > :45:32.in that regard, that the eurozone would do something different to the
:45:32. > :45:36.EU27. There is an argument of putting it into the context of a
:45:37. > :45:40.global situation. Do we want to disadvantage Europe, vis a vis the
:45:40. > :45:43.rest of the world. That is all from Brussels tonight, we will be back
:45:43. > :45:53.tomorrow. That is all from Newsnight tonight.
:45:53. > :46:13.
:46:13. > :46:22.Wherever you are, baton down the Wherever you are, baton down the
:46:22. > :46:25.hatches, good night. Hill low, after an incredibly
:46:25. > :46:29.stormy Thursday, there are quieters conditions on the way for fli. Icey
:46:29. > :46:35.conditions to start the day in Scotland, Northern Ireland, and the
:46:35. > :46:39.North West of eing lan. A weakening band across England. That will be
:46:39. > :46:43.aityure during the afternoon, appearing in the parts of North
:46:43. > :46:46.Wales. To the south plenty of sunshine. A colder day than we had
:46:47. > :46:50.today, temperatures held down in single figures. If you look at the
:46:50. > :46:54.strength of the wind, it is breezeyo and the wind continue down
:46:54. > :46:59.through the day, plenty of sunshine and dry weather. The weakening band
:46:59. > :47:02.of rain, sleet and hill snow, not just affecting northern England,
:47:02. > :47:04.but North Wales and Northern Ireland to begin the day. For the
:47:04. > :47:10.afternoon there is plenty of sunshine, for much of Scotland it
:47:10. > :47:14.is a Wighter day, thankfully, lots of dry d a brighter day, lots of
:47:14. > :47:18.dry and cold weather, the snow showers here could create blaze
:47:18. > :47:22.standard conditions over higher ground. Wet weather will move
:47:22. > :47:26.through plan Chester, not a constant all-day rain. In parts of
:47:26. > :47:30.Scotland to begin the weekend, snow, sleet and wind returning. Fine
:47:30. > :47:36.weather, not just for Friday, but for Saturday, before things change