:00:09. > :00:14.Tonight, nearly two decades after the event, at last two men face
:00:14. > :00:18.jail for one of the most notorious murders in recent history.
:00:18. > :00:24.Stephen Lawrence was 18 when he was killed. It has taken the equivalent
:00:24. > :00:28.of his entire lifetime to get a conviction. Why? Have the police
:00:28. > :00:31.done -- had the police done their job properly, I would have spent
:00:31. > :00:35.the last 18 years grieving for my son, rather than fighting to get
:00:35. > :00:37.his killers to court. We will assess the legacy of this
:00:37. > :00:40.extraordinary case, and what difference today's verdict will
:00:40. > :00:45.make. The race for the White House
:00:45. > :00:52.officially opens, with the Iowa caucuses. What pointers for the
:00:52. > :00:57.election? Would you let any Tom dick or Harry stick one of these in
:00:57. > :01:01.your chest. Why is Britain's cosmetic surgery so unregulate. We
:01:01. > :01:09.talk to the Libyan novelist, Hisham Matar, about how his country is
:01:09. > :01:13.crawling out of the shadow of Gaddafi.
:01:13. > :01:18.The attack which killed Stephen Lawrence was carried out in seconds.
:01:18. > :01:21.It has taken 18 years for anyone to be convicted of the murder. In the
:01:21. > :01:26.end, justice has been done, or partially done, with the conviction
:01:26. > :01:29.of two men out of a much bigger gang of racists responsible for a
:01:29. > :01:34.crime which exposeded the incompetence and prejudice of
:01:34. > :01:38.Britain's biggest police force. The anger and disappointment of Stephen
:01:38. > :01:42.Lawrence's parents of the failure of the police, was only partially
:01:42. > :01:46.tempered by today's convictions. Anna Adams has more the
:01:46. > :01:52.A teenager immortalised for all the wrong reasons. Stephen Lawrence was
:01:52. > :01:57.more than a murder victim, he became a symbol for Britain at its
:01:57. > :02:00.most racist. Images from the case became etched on the public
:02:00. > :02:05.consciousness, from the brawling scenes and the murder itself. At
:02:05. > :02:12.the heart of it, Stephen's parents, and their 18 years of campaigning,
:02:12. > :02:15.which kept this case open. Doreen and Neville Lawrence had powerful
:02:15. > :02:20.advocates to their cause, and launched a powerful prosecution in
:02:20. > :02:22.1994. That was unsuccessful, but today, two of the five original
:02:22. > :02:28.suspect, Gary Dobson and David Norris, were finally found guilty
:02:28. > :02:34.of his murder. But reactions were mixed outside the court. How can I
:02:34. > :02:40.celebrate when I know that this day could have come 18 years ago, if
:02:40. > :02:45.the police, who were meant to find my son's killers, failed so
:02:45. > :02:49.miserably to do so. These are not a reason to celebrate. There have
:02:49. > :02:55.been several investigations over the last 18 years, during which the
:02:55. > :02:59.Lawrence family have campaigned tirelessly for justice. This
:02:59. > :03:04.prosecution has depended upon previously unavailable scientific
:03:04. > :03:08.technology and techniques, which led to the discovery of the new
:03:08. > :03:15.evidence. Nothing can undo the fact that back in 1993, the police lost
:03:15. > :03:22.their way with this case, very badly. The opportunity for example,
:03:22. > :03:28.to gather a really rich hoard of forensic evidence was lost. They
:03:28. > :03:33.just screwed up. And so, no arrests for two weeks, the defendants had a
:03:33. > :03:38.time to wash, launder their clothe, clone their bathrooms, remove
:03:38. > :03:44.pretty well every trace, as we see, we are down to microscopic traces,
:03:44. > :03:47.before any clothes were seized. The case exposed the deep-rooted
:03:47. > :03:53.problems between police and the black community, as Newsnight found
:03:53. > :03:57.out two weeks after the murder. can't trust them. They pick you up
:03:57. > :04:01.for nothing. Jacking you up because your black. The senior policeman
:04:01. > :04:08.who run this is area was telling me the advice he would give you lot
:04:08. > :04:14.was think seriously about joining the police force. (laughter) Edward
:04:14. > :04:17.Jarman was with the Metaphor 32 years, he took the lead on race and
:04:17. > :04:22.diversity issues. I don't think we are there with the whole issue of
:04:22. > :04:26.race and an understanding. Part of that is we never will be because
:04:26. > :04:31.the dynamics of diversity are constantly changing. The ethnic
:04:31. > :04:34.make-up of London is changing as we peek. The issues are constantly --
:04:34. > :04:37.speak, and the issues are constantly evolving into new
:04:37. > :04:41.thingsment we are in a different place, we have a long way to go.
:04:41. > :04:44.When you start talking about the use of a police power and the
:04:44. > :04:49.feeling of it being disproportionate, as long as a
:04:49. > :04:52.particular part of the community feel they are being policed
:04:52. > :04:56.unfairly, we won't gain all the confidence and the police service
:04:56. > :04:59.won't get all the information and support it needs. But the
:04:59. > :05:04.Macpherson Inquiry into the case prompted some incredible changes.
:05:04. > :05:07.The law of double jeopardy, which prevented suspects from being tried
:05:07. > :05:13.twice was scrapped. Without that Gary Dobson would not have been
:05:13. > :05:17.found guilty today. But there were also much deeper changes to race
:05:17. > :05:23.relations. This was the first case in which the public had got behind
:05:23. > :05:30.the family of a black victim of murder. That was historic. But I
:05:30. > :05:32.think the implications of the case go wider. I think that people
:05:32. > :05:39.understood that racism was something different and something
:05:39. > :05:42.more complicateded than it had been before. -- complicated than it had
:05:42. > :05:46.been before. White people understood this, particularly in
:05:46. > :05:52.institutions and positions of authority. That the old idea that
:05:52. > :05:55.there were occasional bad apples, malicious racists, shaven headed
:05:55. > :06:00.and attached to extreme organisations, and that is where
:06:00. > :06:04.racism resided, that idea, I think, for most of us has gone. Sentencing
:06:04. > :06:07.is taking place tomorrow, but the Metropolitan Police say the case is
:06:07. > :06:13.far from closed. They are still looking at nine other suspects and
:06:13. > :06:17.they hope the passage of time will give new witnesses the courage to
:06:17. > :06:22.finally come forward. In a moment we will discuss the legacy of this
:06:22. > :06:27.case and what effect, if if any, these verdicts will have. First
:06:27. > :06:31.let's hear a reaction from those who knew Stephen Lawrence. Steve
:06:31. > :06:34.Smith spent some time in the London district of Eltham where Stephen
:06:34. > :06:40.Lawrence was murdered. Stephen Lawrence has been dead now
:06:40. > :06:43.for as many years as he lived. So there are young adults in Eltham
:06:43. > :06:48.who have grown up with the knowledge of his murder always in
:06:48. > :06:53.front of them. I will be celebrating my 18th birthday next
:06:53. > :07:01.month, it is a case that has been going on for nearly 18 years.
:07:01. > :07:04.your life. Before I was born. I have always known about Stephen
:07:04. > :07:08.Lawrence. I think it is a really significant time in history,
:07:08. > :07:11.justice has been done, but it is very important. I grew up with the
:07:11. > :07:15.whole stigma of it. I was about 11 at the time, but you still remember
:07:15. > :07:25.it. I still remember the day, I still remember it being on the news.
:07:25. > :07:28.How was it a stigma, exactly? the things that are unsaid, the
:07:28. > :07:34.whole racism thing, there was always things said to me from the
:07:34. > :07:39.outside from different places. of you live in Eltham that is where
:07:39. > :07:43.a lot of racists live? Definitely, that was kind of said. Is that true,
:07:43. > :07:46.do you think, or not? Yeah, when I was growing up, absolutely it was
:07:46. > :07:53.true, yeah. While some were paying their
:07:53. > :07:56.respects, others, a few, took the opportunity to make comments from
:07:56. > :08:01.passing vehicles. I think it is absolutely disgusting. Whilst we
:08:01. > :08:06.have been standing here there have been people calling out things.
:08:06. > :08:10.What have you heard? You know "he deserved it" I heard, someone
:08:10. > :08:16.shouted that, as you turned around, I don't think you caught what they
:08:16. > :08:23.said, as they drove down. I'm absolutely disgusted. I met him
:08:23. > :08:27.when I was seven in Sunday school, went to Butt tins Blue Coats
:08:27. > :08:31.together, went to college together. Honestly he was a good guy, you
:08:31. > :08:35.know. I know there is a lot of people hear it on the news, some
:08:35. > :08:41.people might get sick of it, but the truth is the truth. He was ale
:08:42. > :08:46.really cool guy. With -- He was a really cool guy.
:08:46. > :08:49.With us are Lord Falconer, Brian Paddick, the London MP, Diane
:08:49. > :08:54.Abbott, and we are joined from New York by the journalist Martin
:08:54. > :08:59.Bashir, who interviewed the Lawrence suspects in 1999. Why were
:08:59. > :09:04.the Metropolitan Police so incompetent and so bigotted in
:09:04. > :09:07.those days? It was a cultural thing. When I joined the police in 1976
:09:07. > :09:11.racism was overt in the police service. People didn't think there
:09:11. > :09:15.was anything wrong in being racist. What happened with the Stephen
:09:15. > :09:20.Lawrence murder investigation, it was not taken seriously enough. It
:09:20. > :09:24.was only the death of a young black man, therefore, the detectives did
:09:24. > :09:27.not treat the case seriously enough, they didn't devote the resources
:09:28. > :09:31.that should have been devote to it. As we have just heard from Brian
:09:32. > :09:36.Cathcart, they did not use that opportunity to sees clothing, which
:09:36. > :09:40.could have -- seize clothing that could have led to the conviction.
:09:40. > :09:45.It was it the bigotry that underpinned or explained the
:09:45. > :09:49.incompetence? I think what it was was not valuing young black men's
:09:49. > :09:53.lives. The complaint from the Metropolitan Police authority is
:09:53. > :09:57.now all that has gone, it it is a huge change, and however some
:09:57. > :10:00.people may dissent from that, the fact is there are two guys who have
:10:00. > :10:05.been convict for this crime now? First of all, let's not forget
:10:05. > :10:08.there are a lot of other murders walking free, it wasn't just two
:10:08. > :10:11.people who skilled Stephen Lawrence. I would say at the top of the
:10:11. > :10:15.Metropolitan Police, the senior policemen and women who deal with
:10:15. > :10:20.it are much more sophisticated and clever than the ones you dealt with
:10:20. > :10:23.20 years ago. I'm sorry to say when you get further down the ranks, the
:10:23. > :10:27.old canteen culture has got gone away. Sadly, the experience of
:10:27. > :10:31.young black men on the streets of South-East London, North London,
:10:31. > :10:36.Hackney, is, unfortunately, all too similar to the experiences that
:10:36. > :10:40.Stephen Lawrence had. Today isn't a warter shed? Do you know, I know
:10:40. > :10:44.Doreen Lawrence quite well, I had had close friends who supported her
:10:44. > :10:49.from the beginning when it wasn't a fashionable cause. I always
:10:49. > :10:52.remember her saying to me, you never expect to bury your child, it
:10:52. > :10:57.is a watershed for her and Neville. You feel vindicateded in changing
:10:57. > :11:01.the law at least? Without the law being changed, one of the people
:11:01. > :11:08.convicted today wouldn't have been convict, but it is a pretty minor
:11:08. > :11:11.aspect of the story. I think what happened to Stephen Lawrence
:11:12. > :11:17.indicated how racist we were as a society. For reasons that Diane and
:11:17. > :11:20.Brian are saying, we still are, in some respects. If there hadn't been
:11:20. > :11:25.the campaigning of Mr and Mrs Lawrence, and the people who then
:11:25. > :11:30.support them subsequently. They were alone for a pretty long time.
:11:30. > :11:38.We would never have asked ourselves the questions as a society which
:11:38. > :11:43.led to the Lawrence Report, and the Macpherson Report, and threw a
:11:43. > :11:47.light on what Brian has described. I think we might have thought in
:11:47. > :11:49.the mid-1990s that we weren't racist, and my goodness what
:11:49. > :11:53.happened in the Lawrence investigations of what the police
:11:53. > :11:57.didn't do. The period of time it took for us to realise what was
:11:57. > :12:02.happening was very striking. That is why I don't think necessarily
:12:02. > :12:06.today is the watershed, it is what that light that Mr and Mrs Lawrence
:12:06. > :12:10.started shining on our society, and on the police who represent our
:12:10. > :12:13.society, that is what the real watershed would be. I thought Mrs
:12:13. > :12:18.Lawrence in saying today that nothing can bring back for her
:12:18. > :12:21.either her son or those 18 years, and as Diane says, that five or six
:12:21. > :12:26.is the number of people who are thought to have commit the murder.
:12:26. > :12:30.Cressida Dick said there are nine people still being looked at. This
:12:30. > :12:36.is 18 or 19 years later. Martin Bashir, do you think justice
:12:36. > :12:40.has been done? I do. The Prime Minister talk about wanting a Big
:12:40. > :12:44.Society, but essentially we need a just society. A society where,
:12:44. > :12:47.regardless of your background, your waelgt, your colour, your origin,
:12:48. > :12:51.justice functions. I think today that has happened. That is a great
:12:51. > :12:56.thing for Britain. I think also, not with standing all the
:12:56. > :13:06.criticisms of the police service, I think they do deserve credit,
:13:06. > :13:09.following Macpherson. Just one point on that, Detective Chief
:13:09. > :13:13.Superintendent Clive Driscoll who put the investigation together. It
:13:13. > :13:18.was such a formidable investigation that the defence didn't produce a
:13:18. > :13:23.single witness tole challenge a single aspect of the key -- to
:13:23. > :13:26.challenge a single aspect of the key forensic evidence. That is a
:13:26. > :13:28.remarkable achievement, not just because the time has passed, but it
:13:28. > :13:31.shows the police service has learned something significant from
:13:31. > :13:35.what happened, and the subsequent Macpherson Report. To answer your
:13:35. > :13:39.question directly, I do think that justice has been done. You know
:13:39. > :13:45.that I met all five of the called suspects over a prolonged period of
:13:45. > :13:49.time, and met their parents. It didn't take very long for me to
:13:49. > :13:53.realise why 26 separate sources within 24 hours of the tragic
:13:53. > :13:57.murder of this young man, went to the police and named at least one
:13:57. > :14:00.of those five suspects as being responsible for that death. It is
:14:01. > :14:04.staggering when you hear that, and you just go back to what happened
:14:04. > :14:08.at the time. The evidence the police were given, it is
:14:08. > :14:12.astonishing that it has taken 18 years, isn't it? There is a story
:14:12. > :14:15.of two halves here. As far as murder investigation is concerned,
:14:15. > :14:18.in terms of the way the police treat hate crime, where people are
:14:18. > :14:23.targeted because they are from a minority background. The fact that
:14:23. > :14:26.we now have family liaison officers, that murders are reviewed
:14:26. > :14:29.independently to make sure the senior investigating officer isn't
:14:29. > :14:34.going down the wrong track. All of those changes have been fundamental,
:14:34. > :14:39.a direct result of the Lawrence murder. All of those changes
:14:39. > :14:45.implement even before Macpherson reported. But I agree with you,
:14:45. > :14:49.Diane, that where the police have failed to transform the way they
:14:49. > :14:53.operate, is in terms of the encourters they have on the treat,
:14:53. > :14:56.with young -- encounters they have on the street with young black men.
:14:56. > :15:01.You are five times more likely to be stopped and searched on the
:15:01. > :15:03.streets in London if you are black. That cannot be right. Just to say
:15:03. > :15:08.one of the allegations always swirling around this case, the
:15:08. > :15:11.father of one of the defendant was a big gangland figure, one of the
:15:11. > :15:15.allegations always swirling around the case is corruption of the
:15:15. > :15:19.police by the father of one of the defendants.S just an allegation.
:15:19. > :15:23.Let me say one thing. There is a very tragic murder in the last few
:15:23. > :15:27.weeks of a young Indian student in Salford, who was killed in cold
:15:27. > :15:37.blood, it is allegedly a hate crime, all I can say is I hope it doesn't
:15:37. > :15:44.take 18 years to find his killer. Can I mention one thing. Diane
:15:44. > :15:49.Abbott has just made the point about the police response, I think
:15:50. > :15:55.that it is very, very busy to draw criticism and to attack the police
:15:55. > :16:03.for what has happened in relation to this case. I think, though, you
:16:03. > :16:07.have to come back to the facts that the police subsequent to Macpherson
:16:07. > :16:11.did not walk away interest this case. They actually embraced the
:16:11. > :16:16.criticism of them, and they have delivered a verdict today. That is
:16:16. > :16:21.never going to bring back the loss of Stephen Lawrence. Of course all
:16:21. > :16:26.of us feel heartbroken for his family and convey our condolences
:16:26. > :16:30.to them. Let's not fail to give some credit where it is due here.
:16:30. > :16:35.What happened is they started a cold case review in 2007. A man
:16:35. > :16:39.called Mr Jarman, a private contractor spotted the force epbsic
:16:39. > :16:47.stuff. All credit to the police for -- forensic stuff, all credit to
:16:47. > :16:53.the police, but it took eight years after Macpherson Report. I don't
:16:54. > :16:59.blame the police for that. After all the forensic, Macpherson has a
:16:59. > :17:04.list of criticisms, including watching black binliners leaving
:17:04. > :17:09.one of the suspect's house leaving the building. What convicted these
:17:09. > :17:15.two people was a tiny speck of forensic evidence, if they had gone
:17:15. > :17:18.into the house within 24 hours, they knew these people's names,
:17:18. > :17:21.they of could have got search warrants and got gallons of
:17:21. > :17:26.evidence. Does it strike you as change, you were part of the whole
:17:26. > :17:30.change in the law, the abolition of the double jeopardy thing. Does it
:17:30. > :17:33.strike you as odd that the only sentence these men can face is one
:17:33. > :17:38.that of would have been applicable at the time the crime was committed,
:17:38. > :17:42.given how much more we now understand about racism? The crime
:17:42. > :17:46.that, the sentence they will get will be based upon the fact in part
:17:46. > :17:52.that they were juveniles at the time they did this. The principle
:17:52. > :17:55.there is if you are a juvenile when you commit the crime you will be
:17:55. > :17:59.sentenced on that. Racial agravation is part of the case?
:17:59. > :18:02.is up to the judge to take into account how much the racial factor
:18:02. > :18:06.will aggravate the sentence, that is for him to decide tomorrow.
:18:06. > :18:10.to say this, all credit to the police as Martin has been at pains
:18:10. > :18:14.to say. As a parent myself, all credit to the Lawrences, who, if
:18:14. > :18:18.they hadn't been, there were years where nobody was interested in the
:18:18. > :18:22.case. If they hadn't been so persistent, they wouldn't even have
:18:22. > :18:25.got the partial justice they have got today. And the price they have
:18:25. > :18:29.paid for this. And the way they were treated, the way they were
:18:30. > :18:33.treat. That is why although I don't in had any way criticise the police
:18:33. > :18:37.for their 2007 review and what happened and the conviction that
:18:37. > :18:44.has now been obtained b about you they felt completely isolated, and
:18:44. > :18:49.they felt as victims they were treated appallingly by the police.
:18:49. > :18:53.The point that Diane Abbott make about David Norris is well made.
:18:53. > :18:58.Clifford Norris, his father, is a career criminal, who has spent time
:18:58. > :19:04.in jail. This man grew up amongst endemic criminality. It was
:19:04. > :19:08.remarkable, two weeks ago, when he got into the witness box, he was so
:19:08. > :19:11.confident in his relationship with his father, that spread into
:19:11. > :19:15.various police officers in the past, that he was able to say that he had
:19:15. > :19:19.an alibi in his mother on the night the murder took place. When I
:19:19. > :19:24.interviewed him, he told me he was with his girlfriend Sheryl in her
:19:24. > :19:27.house. I think Diane make as point that many of us have felt, that in
:19:27. > :19:31.the case of Norris specifically, there was some kind of discreet
:19:31. > :19:36.relationship between him, his father and the Metropolitan Police.
:19:36. > :19:45.Nobody has disputeded the existence of that, and its effect on the
:19:45. > :19:50.inquiry. This question of a changeded relationship, didn't what
:19:50. > :19:53.we saw in the riots last summer show there is a long way to go in
:19:53. > :19:58.repairing this relationship? think there is, Diane will know
:19:58. > :20:05.better than anybody as a local MP, that tension between the police and
:20:05. > :20:11.the black community is still strained. In fact, my party leader,
:20:11. > :20:14.Nick Clegg, was delivering the Macpherson, the Scarman lecture in
:20:14. > :20:18.Brixton a few weeks ago, I advised had him to say relations between
:20:18. > :20:22.the police and the black community were better than they were in 1981,
:20:22. > :20:26.he was advised by the organisers not to say that, otherwise he would
:20:26. > :20:29.be seen to be out-of-touch with the local community. That is a very
:20:29. > :20:32.serious indictment in where we are with police and community relations
:20:32. > :20:36.today. The business of choosing the most
:20:36. > :20:41.powerful person on earth gets under way in a couple of hours among the
:20:41. > :20:45.three million or so overwhelmingly white inhabitants of the state of
:20:45. > :20:48.Iowa. A very small proportion of them will gather in libraries and
:20:48. > :20:51.school rooms tonight to decide who should be the Republican candidate
:20:51. > :20:55.to challenge Barack Obama later this year. They won't have anything
:20:55. > :20:59.like the final word. Their claim to fame is to have the first word.
:20:59. > :21:09.That is why the Iowa caucus is interesting. Peter Marshall is in
:21:09. > :21:17.
:21:17. > :21:22.Iowa. Here we are in what is part of the
:21:22. > :21:25.democratic process s the Iowa caucuses is always a strange affair,
:21:25. > :21:29.not surprisingly in the last few weeks with the world going to hell
:21:29. > :21:34.in a hand cart. The presidential nominees have been lining up in a
:21:34. > :21:38.game akin to speed dating, like suitors stating their case before
:21:38. > :21:45.eventually collapsing in various shades of embarrassment. It is not
:21:45. > :21:50.as though Iowa is representative of America, it is an atypical state,
:21:50. > :21:54.it is a farming state and farming is doing very well. The rule is if
:21:54. > :21:58.you win Iowa and winning New Hampshire as well, they are half
:21:58. > :22:03.way anointed to being the person chosen to represent the Republicans
:22:03. > :22:06.to face Barack Obama for the White House.
:22:06. > :22:11.They know all about cattle markets in Iowa, the livestock is paradeded
:22:11. > :22:15.about and the calves, who promise the best beef, get picked out. You
:22:15. > :22:18.know where this is going, it happens every four years. Those
:22:18. > :22:21.crazed with sufficient ambition to be their party's candidate for
:22:21. > :22:27.President, roll around this tiny state, for months on end, trying to
:22:27. > :22:34.coax the locals. But they alone can save the nation. Iowa's farmers
:22:34. > :22:40.have seen it all, look on Reily. is a very challenging situation
:22:40. > :22:42.ined today's political arena. like normal elections, everyone is
:22:42. > :22:46.prom mitsing everything and delivering nothing. -- prom mitsing
:22:46. > :22:50.everything and delivering nothing. You -- promising everything and
:22:50. > :22:56.delivering nothing. You don't believe them? No. The country is
:22:56. > :22:59.broken. Meet Mitt Romney, the man long expect to come out on top of
:22:59. > :23:03.the Republican pile. What hard work it is proving to be. Romney is
:23:03. > :23:07.backed by the party's bosses. He's funded to a far higher level than
:23:07. > :23:11.his opponents, and he has never stopped running since losing to
:23:11. > :23:17.John McCain last time around. will clamp down on China that has
:23:17. > :23:20.been cheating, they have been stealing our property, our designs,
:23:20. > :23:25.our patents, our brand, hacking into our computers. That has to
:23:25. > :23:29.stop, you will stop it if I'm President of the United States.
:23:30. > :23:35.Romney used to be Governor of Massachusetts, a state Republicans
:23:35. > :23:40.decry as liberal. He has a track record. To many party activists, on
:23:40. > :23:45.matters like taxation, he has been a bit of a wet. If Mitt Romney were
:23:45. > :23:48.to get the nomination it would be the victory over Everything but
:23:48. > :23:54.Romney mood which has seized the party over recent month. A
:23:54. > :23:59.startling array of challengers have shone briefly and brightly before
:23:59. > :24:02.disappearing, and self-combusting. Commerce, education and what's the
:24:02. > :24:06.third one there. Department of Energy, you know we have all lost
:24:06. > :24:09.our train of thought before, but not many have done it on national
:24:09. > :24:15.TV. Rick Perry, Governor of Texas, couldn't remember his own policies.
:24:15. > :24:21.He's now having to use his campaign ads, attempting to turn his amnesia
:24:21. > :24:24.into a joke. I'm your man, I'm Rick Perry, what's that line again? I'm
:24:24. > :24:28.Rick Perry, and I approve of this message.
:24:28. > :24:35.What's up with these sorry politicians. Lots of bark, but when
:24:35. > :24:40.it is show time, wimpering like little shih tzus, you want big cuts.
:24:40. > :24:46.Perry has been eclipsed by Ron Paul, a 76-year-old libertarian, who
:24:46. > :24:50.wants to slash military spending and terminate much of Government.
:24:50. > :24:56.Swathes love his radicalism, he's riding high in Iowa, but he will
:24:56. > :25:05.never be President. The question beings why more of the party's
:25:05. > :25:10.bigger guns with wider appeal haven't run. Like Chris Christie,
:25:10. > :25:15.and others. As weak as President Obertan looks now, running against
:25:15. > :25:19.an incumbent is never a kickback. Looking at Iowa, a battleground
:25:19. > :25:23.state in the election, Barack Obama has eight campaign offices open in
:25:23. > :25:29.Iowa right now. That is more than any of the Republicans running in
:25:29. > :25:33.the kaukkass have. He's organised - caucuses? He's organised, very
:25:33. > :25:36.organised. He will have far more money. Mitt Romney can be
:25:36. > :25:41.competitive, even Mitt Romney says he won't have as much money as
:25:41. > :25:45.Barack Obama. With fresh unemployment figures out on Friday,
:25:45. > :25:52.Obertan's re-election prospects hinge -- Obama's re-election
:25:52. > :25:57.prospects ride on the economy. Times are tough, and Obama's fan
:25:57. > :26:02.base is shaken, says one Democratic leader, but says in the end they
:26:03. > :26:06.will back him again. The one thing to compare Obama to what you
:26:06. > :26:11.thought he could be, and then compare him against those he's
:26:11. > :26:15.running against, once you see those contrasts among Obama or any of the
:26:15. > :26:19.Republicans, you almost have to come home to Obama if you were a
:26:19. > :26:23.supporter before. There are indications the US economy could be
:26:23. > :26:27.picking up, that doesn't put Barack Obama in the clear, an incumbent
:26:27. > :26:31.has to cope with events. There is no sign that the focus will be on
:26:31. > :26:36.anything really except the economy and foreign policy. There has been
:26:36. > :26:39.a lot of talk recently on the campaign trail about especially
:26:39. > :26:43.Iran, concern about what sort of policy the United States will have
:26:43. > :26:50.towards Iran, and the fact that it is working towards getting nuclear
:26:50. > :26:53.weapons. It is not just Iran, if Obama is to hold on to the
:26:53. > :26:56.presidency, he has to tread carefully through a difficult world
:26:56. > :27:01.over the next 11 months. There is North Korea, Pakistan, Syria and
:27:01. > :27:06.the whole of the Middle East. And there's Vladimir Putin and his
:27:07. > :27:10.handling of Russia's democracy. All that is without mentioning the
:27:10. > :27:18.eurozone, which leads back to America's own, problem number one,
:27:19. > :27:24.the economy. And finally to the latest challenger for the
:27:24. > :27:29.Republican nomination. Attacking the front runner Romney as a fan of
:27:29. > :27:32.Obama-style health care, Rick Santorum suggests the British
:27:32. > :27:36.Empire collapsed because of similar social programmes. REPORTER: Can
:27:36. > :27:39.you tell us which social programmes caused the collapse of the British
:27:39. > :27:43.Empire, give us one answer? I think the British national health care
:27:43. > :27:47.system is a devastating programme to a country, it makes it dependant
:27:47. > :27:50.and that is a devastating thing for society. The height care programme,
:27:50. > :27:53.the National Health Service, it is popular -- the health care
:27:53. > :27:58.programme, the National Health Service, it is popular though?
:27:58. > :28:03.Margaret Thatcher wasn't able to do what Reagan was able to do to this
:28:03. > :28:07.country. On that bombshell, the wannabe President was on his way.
:28:07. > :28:13.His chances of leading the American empire remain remote, but you never
:28:13. > :28:18.know. With us now from New Hampshire is
:28:18. > :28:21.the Republican presidential candidate and our guests,
:28:21. > :28:26.strategists for the Democrats is with us too.
:28:26. > :28:30.What do you think we have learned about Republicanism about how the
:28:30. > :28:34.candidates are standing tonight? Well, you know, it is a very fluid
:28:34. > :28:37.situation. In Iowa and all over the country. Mitt Romney is the front
:28:38. > :28:41.runner, he has been at this for about six years, everyone is
:28:41. > :28:45.looking for an alternative. One of the reasons I stepped into this
:28:45. > :28:48.race. How does it look to you from the opposite side of the fence,
:28:48. > :28:52.given particularly the number of people who have chosen not to throw
:28:52. > :28:59.their hats into the ring? Well, I think it is a really important
:28:59. > :29:02.night for Romney. He spent �4.5 million worth of ads with himself
:29:02. > :29:06.and his affiliated communities here. This is really make-or-break it for
:29:07. > :29:09.him, he has to come in one or two, the Republicans are having a lot of
:29:09. > :29:13.reservation about their front runner. He's pulling out all the
:29:13. > :29:20.stops to have a good turn out tonight and get his percentage and
:29:20. > :29:30.number of votes up from when he ran before. Your candidates seem to
:29:30. > :29:30.
:29:30. > :29:34.have to make all sort of commitments on social affairs that
:29:34. > :29:38.unrecoginsable to Middle America? The Republican party of 2012 is a
:29:38. > :29:43.different party than I grew up with. It was a caring party, not hung up
:29:43. > :29:46.on all the social issues, a very devisive party. I think Iowa
:29:46. > :29:50.Republican also send one message, I think the rest of the country will
:29:50. > :29:53.see, starting next week, in New Hampshire, will send a very
:29:53. > :29:56.different message. That moderation and reasonableness is very welcome,
:29:56. > :30:00.because that's where the United States is right now. Most of the
:30:00. > :30:04.voters here are independent, most of the voters are looking for
:30:04. > :30:09.solutions to get Government working, and the two sides to get along.
:30:09. > :30:14.Like Reagan did, my old boss. How does it look to you in
:30:14. > :30:20.comparison with the race for the White House itself? I think Fred
:30:20. > :30:23.has made a very good point. The Republican primary is pulling these
:30:23. > :30:28.candidates very right-wing, and all these Iowa candidates, who have
:30:28. > :30:32.spent millions of dollars in ads, still haven't established an
:30:32. > :30:35.economic plan. It it is "economy stupid" that is the issue out there.
:30:35. > :30:38.Every single one of them is talking about God and their faith and their
:30:38. > :30:43.position on the unborn child, but nothing to make sure that child
:30:43. > :30:47.ever has a job. So I think you will see these candidates move too far
:30:47. > :30:50.right to really come back and win a general election. They are not
:30:50. > :30:55.establishing an economic plan, they are not establishing a viable
:30:55. > :31:01.contrast with Barack Obama. But if it is the "economy stupid"
:31:01. > :31:05.then Obama is in trouble, isn't he? I think it is a choice. It is also
:31:05. > :31:10.a question about where we are headeded. Americans are a lot more
:31:11. > :31:14.savvy than people give them credit for, they know it is a global
:31:14. > :31:18.recession, and a recession, and they know it was primarily caused
:31:18. > :31:21.by Bush and Wall Street, and they want progress for sure. They are
:31:21. > :31:26.not at all-clear that the Republicans are offering a real
:31:26. > :31:32.alternative. If if you look at the specifics their plan, do away with
:31:32. > :31:37.regulation, and don't continue the tax cutser for the middle-class.
:31:37. > :31:41.Don't increase tax increases on the wealthiest 1%. Don't increase jobs
:31:41. > :31:45.in the United States, cut social security. These are not popular
:31:45. > :31:48.policies. These are policies two- thirds to three quarters of
:31:48. > :31:52.Americans reject, including a substantial proportion of
:31:52. > :31:56.Republican women. The Republicans aren't offering an alternative
:31:56. > :32:00.right now. You were shaking your head throughout much of that, why?
:32:00. > :32:03.Nice try, we are in agreement on the rightward shift of the
:32:03. > :32:07.Republicans running. President Obama when he's under the
:32:07. > :32:11.microscope, he promisededed in his campaign to spend the first two
:32:11. > :32:15.years of his presidency on fixing our economy. He spent the first two
:32:15. > :32:19.weeks, he passed our stimulus trillion dollar bill, and then went
:32:19. > :32:22.off to health care and a whole array of other subjects. He hasn't
:32:22. > :32:26.kept his eye on the ball and is in serious trouble. What the
:32:26. > :32:29.Republican party is looking for is a new face. We have gone through
:32:29. > :32:36.many. I'm here in New Hampshire, I'm aed moderate Republican, we
:32:36. > :32:42.started running our commercialsed today, I'm a moderate Republican,
:32:42. > :32:45.we started running our commercials today, I I'm pro-choice, I would
:32:45. > :32:50.love to run against Barack Obama and talk about putting America back
:32:50. > :32:55.to work like Ronald Reagan did in 1981. You have no chance of doing
:32:55. > :33:00.so, have you? You know I'm one debate away. I have been kept out
:33:00. > :33:04.of the debates, Fox Network here, eventhough I qualified for the
:33:04. > :33:09.second debate in Iowa, I qualified, I met their criteria, would not
:33:09. > :33:15.allow me in the debate the. They changed the rules. I filed a
:33:16. > :33:20.complaint against Rupert Murdoch, with alls they -- all the other
:33:20. > :33:23.problems. I'm in the Michigan debate and on the ballot this, I
:33:23. > :33:30.could be the flavour of the week and once America gets a lock at me
:33:30. > :33:34.I'm hopeful I can be the nominee. These are worrying times if you are
:33:34. > :33:38.one of the estimated 42,000 women in Britain of who have had breast
:33:38. > :33:42.implants manufactured by a French company called PIP. The Government
:33:42. > :33:46.saided today here, the Government here, that it doesn't believe it is
:33:46. > :33:49.necessary for all women who have had implants to have them removed.
:33:49. > :33:51.It can't get all the information it needs to make a judgment, because
:33:51. > :33:58.private companies who have carried out the procedure won't tell them.
:33:58. > :34:04.Whatever the risks of implants are, the affair has laid bare how
:34:04. > :34:07.unregulated British cosmetic surgery is.
:34:07. > :34:11.In our contemporary culture it is everywhere, the desire to look
:34:11. > :34:15.better, more beautiful, whatever the cost. But what about when it
:34:15. > :34:18.goes wrong, when the costs are more than just financial. Tonight, tens
:34:18. > :34:22.of thousands of women in Britain still don't know if the breast
:34:22. > :34:26.implants they had are safe. The Government says it doesn't have all
:34:27. > :34:31.the data it wants, and is ordering some private clinics to hand over
:34:31. > :34:36.figures on failure rates by the end of the week. This is aed good-
:34:36. > :34:41.quality breast implant, even if it were to rupture, it shouldn't cause
:34:41. > :34:44.any problems. But those at the centre of the French scandal were
:34:44. > :34:47.made using industrial-grade silicone. And last week the French
:34:47. > :34:52.Government said all the women affected should have them removed
:34:52. > :35:00.and it would cover the costs. So what should happen for the 50,000
:35:00. > :35:04.or so women here who also had those implants? Modern implants are so
:35:04. > :35:10.well manufactured that you could do this with them and they don't
:35:10. > :35:14.rupture. They are very robust. Jacqueline Lewis carries out
:35:14. > :35:19.implant operations for NHS and private patients. If I were to
:35:19. > :35:26.stick a knife into this implant, I'm squeezing on it here, and it is
:35:26. > :35:31.bulging out a bit, then if I cut into it and squeeze it. Nothing
:35:31. > :35:34.really happens. It just goes back in. It is form stable. She says
:35:34. > :35:39.she's confident that women with good-quality implants have nothing
:35:39. > :35:43.to fear. But she is concerned about the PIP implant. If this had
:35:43. > :35:48.happened to my sister, I would want her to have the implants refd moved,
:35:48. > :35:53.because we now know that -- removed, because we now know that the filler
:35:53. > :35:59.of these PIP implants were filled with silicone not of meddle kal
:35:59. > :36:04.grade, not for human use -- medical grade, not for human use. Mark
:36:04. > :36:08.Harvey is representing 250 people PIP implants, in a class action
:36:08. > :36:11.against clinics that fitted them. He's critical of the regulator in
:36:11. > :36:17.this field. The medicines and health care products regulatory
:36:17. > :36:22.agency, the MHRA. I went to the MHRA in February 2009 and said
:36:23. > :36:25.there was problems and was rebuffed by the MHRA, we know there was very
:36:25. > :36:29.little post marketing surveillance that would have detected a problem,
:36:29. > :36:34.much earlier than the recall that took place in 2010. But this isn't
:36:34. > :36:40.the first time there has been a national furore over the safety of
:36:40. > :36:44.breast implants. In 1997, the BBC's Healthcheck programme, produced
:36:44. > :36:48.evidence from women that they felt inadequately informed about
:36:48. > :36:52.possible risks of surgery. The Labour Government ordered a safety
:36:52. > :36:56.review. A year later that independent review group found no
:36:56. > :37:01.conclusive evidence of a link between silicone implants and
:37:01. > :37:04.connective tissue disease, nor a link with an abnormal immune
:37:04. > :37:08.response. But they said women needed more information about risks
:37:08. > :37:12.and there should be compulsory recording on the National Breast
:37:12. > :37:15.Implant Registry about all breast implant operations and any adverse
:37:15. > :37:20.incidents. Labour MP, Ann Clwyd, first raised the issue in
:37:20. > :37:24.parliament in 1994, calling for action on cosmetic surgery. A
:37:24. > :37:29.registry was set up, but discontinued a few years later.
:37:29. > :37:37.the implants register, I think it should be reinstated, there should
:37:37. > :37:41.be a wide inquiry into why it was discontinued. And also, into the
:37:41. > :37:44.continuing practice, particularly if they are using silicone from
:37:44. > :37:51.other countries, I think the women who have had the silicone implants
:37:51. > :37:56.have the right to know, they need to know that their health is not in
:37:57. > :38:00.danger. I think surgeries were sold a duff product and there was a
:38:00. > :38:06.failure in the regulatory process, I would like to see the national
:38:06. > :38:10.implant registry reinstated and funded. The NMRA told us attempts
:38:10. > :38:12.to run the registry failed because patients were reluctant to get
:38:12. > :38:16.involved. But said tonight, together with the Department of
:38:16. > :38:22.Health, it will look at re- establishing the registry. They are
:38:22. > :38:25.insisting their tests found no safety issues relating to the PIP
:38:25. > :38:28.filler material. Today the Government stress that Britain and
:38:28. > :38:32.France agree there is no link to cancer, as some have feared. For
:38:32. > :38:36.the time being, at least, the Government says that on balance,
:38:36. > :38:43.there is no need for women to have PIP implants reof moved. That may
:38:43. > :38:48.not be -- plants removed, that may not be enough to women who have had
:38:48. > :38:52.to cope with the hidden risks of cosmetic surgery. Three days into
:38:52. > :38:56.2012 and the 2011 Arab Spring has yet to turn to summer in many
:38:56. > :38:59.places. Syrian security forces are reckoned to have killed 100 people
:38:59. > :39:02.even since Arab League monitors arrived in the country. In Egypt
:39:02. > :39:06.Mubarak has been toppled, but the army has yet to hand over power,
:39:06. > :39:11.and in Libya, there was more fighting in the centre of the
:39:11. > :39:17.capital, Tripoli today, between factions once united in toppling
:39:17. > :39:19.Colonel Gaddafi. 2011 wasn't a great year for
:39:19. > :39:24.dictators, Colonel Gaddafi was merely the most infamous of the
:39:24. > :39:28.club to find his life tenure of the Presidential Palace, rudely
:39:28. > :39:33.interrupted by the Arab Spring. His squalid end was beamed around the
:39:33. > :39:38.world, but strong men were also ousted from power in Egypt, Yemen
:39:38. > :39:43.and Tunisia. It is now over a year since a young
:39:43. > :39:48.Tunisian man, put all this in train by setting had himself on fire
:39:48. > :39:53.after his vegtable cart was confiscateded by police. The
:39:53. > :39:58.revolution he set off drew the west into a civil war in Libya and has
:39:58. > :40:05.toppled, at the last count, four Governments. In Syria, protestors
:40:05. > :40:08.are still dying in their efforts to get rid of Bashar al-Assad. But the
:40:08. > :40:12.question of what replaces the Governments that have gone hasn't
:40:12. > :40:18.yet been answered. In Egypt elections are on going, and it is
:40:18. > :40:20.far from clear how they will turn out. The army still holds the reins.
:40:20. > :40:25.In Libya, the National Transitional Council is hoping to see elections
:40:25. > :40:30.by next summer, and a new constitution. But the final outcome
:40:30. > :40:40.of all these changes and how they will shape their societies, remains
:40:40. > :40:44.
:40:44. > :40:49.opaque. The Libyan novelist Hisham Matar is with me. You have written
:40:49. > :40:53.we have defeated Gaddafi on the battlefield, now we must defeat him
:40:53. > :40:57.in our imaginations, what did you mean by that? The narrative of
:40:57. > :41:02.Gaddafi, this alien figure that descended on an otherwise very
:41:02. > :41:08.organised society and turned it into this hell, and then now, by
:41:08. > :41:12.removing him, we will just revert back to this utopian situation, is
:41:12. > :41:18.not only inaccurate, but it is dangerous. Because it misses the
:41:18. > :41:24.truth, which is that Gaddafi is a very complex phenomenon in Libyan
:41:24. > :41:31.history, that has affected the psychology of our nation. It has
:41:31. > :41:35.affect our imagination. You no just in a very practical sense, how
:41:35. > :41:42.deeply corrupt a lot of Libyan institutions remain to be is a
:41:42. > :41:45.legacy from that time. You returned recently, how has it changed?
:41:45. > :41:51.haven't returned to Libya, I'm going soon. Sorry you are going
:41:51. > :41:56.soon. You are in almost daily contact, how has it changeded?
:41:56. > :42:02.has changeded phenomenally. It is very -- changed phenomenally, it it
:42:02. > :42:06.is very difficult to articulate. I was thinking on the way how do
:42:06. > :42:15.impart this, to your viewers and to you, we have lived for 40 years
:42:16. > :42:20.under this state waiting, a very surreal time of just waiting. It
:42:20. > :42:24.has made us very passive, it has made us very sinle kal about
:42:24. > :42:28.ourselves. But also -- cynical about ourselves, but also about the
:42:28. > :42:38.world. Suddenly now we speak about things in incredibly practical ways.
:42:38. > :42:42.We are very engaged. We are anxious because of the mountain ahead of us,
:42:42. > :42:45.but we are not afraid, we are not looking over our shoulders. We are
:42:45. > :42:50.incredibly excite. If you were to look at particularly the cultural
:42:50. > :42:57.life in Libya, see how many new newspapers and magazines have start,
:42:57. > :43:03.just in this time, the various NGOs that have started. More than 500
:43:03. > :43:07.NGOs in Libya, in a country where having an NGO was a political crime.
:43:07. > :43:12.You know. When you are living in a police state, and everyone is
:43:12. > :43:17.unsure about who is watching them, they behave kifrpbly to how they
:43:17. > :43:21.behave if -- differently to how they behave if they live in a free
:43:21. > :43:25.society? Yes, and a lot of commentators, early on, were saying,
:43:26. > :43:29.and rightly so, one of the big challenges Libya has is exactly
:43:29. > :43:32.this fact. Doesn't have an experience in democracy. But we
:43:32. > :43:35.have forgotten that Libya doesn't have an expowerence of democracy,
:43:35. > :43:40.but we have an incredible experience in the opposite. We know
:43:40. > :43:49.what the opposite looks like. And you can see that. You can see how
:43:49. > :43:54.vigilent people are being. Case in point when the current transitional
:43:54. > :44:00.Government tried to set up a Government without consultation,
:44:00. > :44:02.they have been terrible at being transparent, in fact, and have
:44:02. > :44:05.elect officials without telling people how they have done that.
:44:05. > :44:09.People have taken to the streets and haven't left until the
:44:09. > :44:17.Government disclose that list. about the question of getting rid
:44:17. > :44:21.of Gaddafi himself. The whole world saw pictures of him taken, walking
:44:21. > :44:26.around, standing up, we then saw pictures of him dead, there appears
:44:26. > :44:35.to have been some sort of extra judicial carried out there. What
:44:35. > :44:40.did you feel when you saw all of that? Terrible. It was a moment of
:44:40. > :44:45.national psychosis. Gaddafi has been responsible, in the past, for
:44:45. > :44:51.several of those, and one is familiar with it. But also I think
:44:51. > :44:55.to take it more deeply, one has to understand, or try to imagine what
:44:55. > :44:59.those men have been going through, in the months before. A lot them
:44:59. > :45:02.haven't slept, for example, very well. This is not to excuse it, but
:45:02. > :45:07.to understand it a little bit better. Also I think what is really
:45:07. > :45:10.interesting about that moment is that it says so much about the
:45:10. > :45:15.relationship, the psychological relationship that Libyans have with,
:45:15. > :45:19.or had with Gaddafi, I would claim still have on some level. In a
:45:19. > :45:23.sense they couldn't quite believe that they have captured him. They
:45:23. > :45:27.were testing, let's Troy to do one more thing before the -- let's try
:45:27. > :45:31.to do one more thing before the sky collapses on it, because surely it
:45:31. > :45:35.will. One of the things I thought of was this story that used to be
:45:35. > :45:37.repeated in Libya before, where one of his guards wanted to kill him
:45:37. > :45:41.and recruit another guard, and they were speaking about how they were
:45:41. > :45:46.going to do this, and they went through the details. One of them
:45:46. > :45:51.said, I'm going to shoot him at this moment and you cover my back.
:45:51. > :45:54.The other person said, fine, how do you know once you shoot him that he
:45:54. > :45:58.will actually die. You know. You can see that being played out there.
:45:58. > :46:07.Something else you could see being played out that is very interesting.
:46:07. > :46:14.Is how Gaddafi's dictatorship has succeeded in affect ing Libyan
:46:14. > :46:21.masculinity. There was something in the Mc Car bre and -- macarbre and