:00:09. > :00:13.Blin's biggest police force has promised to atone for past sins and
:00:13. > :00:18.try to put more of the racists who killed Stephen Lawrence in jail.
:00:18. > :00:22.The police are, they say, a changed, improved service, there for the
:00:22. > :00:28.benefit of all. Just getting searched at the moment.
:00:28. > :00:32.This happens quite frequently. yet many young black men's
:00:32. > :00:35.experience of the police, seems significantly different to that of
:00:35. > :00:39.many young white men. We will discuss just how you create
:00:39. > :00:43.confidence when perceptions of peacekeeping and prejudice collide.
:00:43. > :00:48.How did a few prordors in a collection of tents shake --
:00:48. > :00:52.protesterors in a collection of tents shake some of the pillars of
:00:52. > :00:57.the Church of England. We will speak to the Canon Chancellor of St
:00:57. > :01:01.Paul's who quit his job because he was so bothered by the issue.
:01:02. > :01:05.And deforestation by force. We have just landed the helicopter, and the
:01:05. > :01:15.officers are going over to the truck, which has freshly cut logs
:01:15. > :01:23.
:01:23. > :01:27.They were sentenced to 14 and 15 years in jail for what the judge
:01:27. > :01:32.called a terrible and evil crime. And yet there was an incompleteness
:01:32. > :01:37.about the conclusion of the trial of Stephen Lawrence's murderers. No
:01:38. > :01:41.finality because Nair co- conspirators remain free, -- their
:01:41. > :01:45.co-conspirators remain free. The police say they are massively
:01:45. > :01:51.changed since the time Stephen Lawrence's murder. But as we report,
:01:51. > :01:54.plenty of people think there is still a way to go.
:01:54. > :01:57.Stephen Lawrence's murder has altered the police landscape in
:01:57. > :02:03.Britain. Officers seemed to think he was a gang member, not innocent
:02:03. > :02:07.victim, as he lay bleeding to death. The bungled investigation prompted
:02:07. > :02:16.the Macpherson Inquiry, which branded the police, institutionally
:02:16. > :02:20.racist. But how much has really changed. What's up with your mates,
:02:20. > :02:25.why have they got the hump. I don't know mate. How are you doing. Now
:02:25. > :02:29.we are going to stop you. For black and ethnic communities this is the
:02:29. > :02:36.acid test, stop and search. We were given this video of a police search
:02:36. > :02:39.carried out last week in Brixton. Would the female like to search me?
:02:40. > :02:44.The police were suspicious because three of the group ran away, they
:02:44. > :02:51.were looking for knives. My name is PJ Taylor.
:02:51. > :02:57.Is that your full name? Yeah. Just getting searched at the moment.
:02:57. > :03:02.This happens quite frequently. When people have done nothing.
:03:02. > :03:06.We caught up with the man being searched, he runs his own start-up
:03:06. > :03:11.media company in Brixton. The only thing he was carrying was a camera.
:03:11. > :03:17.So PJ, what is going on here? I got stopped on Friday night, I
:03:17. > :03:22.was filming a music video for a couple of guys in Brixton. A bully
:03:22. > :03:26.van of officers, apparently from Bromley Station came and they just
:03:27. > :03:31.searched us for no reason. Why do you call it a bully van? I don't
:03:31. > :03:35.know, I'm being honest, I'm 22 years of age, I have grown up with
:03:35. > :03:38.the term bully van, the only thing I can break it down, bullies come
:03:38. > :03:43.out of the van. The officers or the police they are a gang. Because
:03:43. > :03:48.they are all together, and they go out doing what they are doing.
:03:48. > :03:53.Young black men are disproportionally stopped and
:03:53. > :03:58.searched. Back in 1994, when Stephen Lawrence was murdered, 11%
:03:58. > :04:01.of stops and searches under section 1 of the Police and Criminal
:04:01. > :04:06.Evidence Act were black people. These require reasonable suspicion.
:04:06. > :04:10.In 2010 the figure was 18%, in the same year in Britain the figure was
:04:10. > :04:14.33.5%. But PJ was stopped under a different law. Section 60, brought
:04:14. > :04:20.in to tackle football violence. These stops do not require
:04:20. > :04:26.reasonable grounds for suspicion. In London, 48% of section 60 stops
:04:26. > :04:33.in 20 09/10, were against black people. The police tend to trouble
:04:33. > :04:36.a lot of black youths. I don't want it to sound racist, I'm half white
:04:36. > :04:40.and black. They stereotype people because they see a black boy with
:04:40. > :04:44.aed hood up. They automatically go with the stereotype and stop and
:04:44. > :04:49.search them. These debates have a long history,
:04:49. > :04:54.it was ainger at police tactics which were blamed -- ainger at the
:04:54. > :04:57.police tactic that is were blamed for the Brixton riots. We caught up
:04:57. > :05:01.with a community leader who witnessed the civil unrest in the
:05:01. > :05:06.1980s and has a long view. When I was a young person involved in the
:05:06. > :05:11.social unrest in 1991 in Leeds, a lot of the issues we had against
:05:11. > :05:14.the police, the anger with the stop and search, and the general very
:05:14. > :05:18.negative aggressive approach by the police, I don't believe that has
:05:18. > :05:22.stopped. If anything it has got worse. You think it has got worse?
:05:23. > :05:27.I think it has got worse. Bringing race into it is irrelevant, what is
:05:27. > :05:33.important is you target the people committing the offences. If that
:05:33. > :05:36.means that some police officers start to use stop and search in an
:05:36. > :05:38.indiscriminate manner, they should be dealt with for doing that. At
:05:38. > :05:44.the same time you don't want to frighten police officers from doing
:05:44. > :05:49.their duty. Some blame ainger at the police for
:05:49. > :05:53.the most recent -- anger at the police for the most recent riots in
:05:53. > :06:03.the summer. Some say there are too few black police officers to
:06:03. > :06:11.
:06:11. > :06:15.But senior black police officers acting as role models are scarce.
:06:16. > :06:19.In its way, this youth engagment agency, called Liberty, is designed
:06:19. > :06:22.to help correct this problem. Here young people have opportunities to
:06:22. > :06:26.work on a commercial magazine called Live, helping to shape
:06:26. > :06:30.tomorrow's leaders, perhapsment you think there is an issue that
:06:30. > :06:35.there are very few senior black police officers in the Metropolitan
:06:35. > :06:41.Police? There just aren't that many very senior people? I think if the
:06:41. > :06:46.issue at the moment is that, but it won't stay an issue. People are for
:06:46. > :06:50.getting us being here at Live Magazine, what we're doing is
:06:50. > :06:53.building a future for ourselves, the same as any other young black
:06:53. > :06:57.person here. Not everyone is on the streets. That is the picture that
:06:57. > :07:01.everyone has painted of us. And actually, there is a more of of us
:07:01. > :07:05.changing that picture. There is a bit of racism, a lot of black
:07:05. > :07:09.people do get stopped and searched, also because you are young and
:07:09. > :07:13.depending on what you wear, you get stopped and searched.
:07:13. > :07:17.The police have made progress, but there is still a surprising lack of
:07:17. > :07:22.trust. Even from the man who helped shape the Met as drive to recruit
:07:22. > :07:26.more black officers. Roger Noel had high hopes when he
:07:26. > :07:30.modelled for this advert. I was very happy to do it. But I was in
:07:30. > :07:35.the East End of London, but this time it wasn't just the white cop,
:07:35. > :07:41.it was the black and white cop. So I was stopped, they slowed the car
:07:41. > :07:45.down and asked me questions in a derogatry man, I replied, I said to
:07:45. > :07:50.the black cop do you realise you got this job because of me, because
:07:50. > :07:55.of my advertisment, or me representing the police. He thought
:07:55. > :08:04.I wased mad. He didn't realise what I was talking about. The Lawrence
:08:04. > :08:08.case was a watershed moment, not just for police but society. The
:08:08. > :08:12.police have better policies now, implementing them systematically is
:08:12. > :08:15.the big problem. With us is Rod Jarman, Acting
:08:15. > :08:17.Deputy Commissioner with the Metropolitan Police until last year.
:08:17. > :08:22.Cindy Butts a member of the Metropolitan Police authority, and
:08:22. > :08:25.Madix, a former gang member, who has served time in prison and now
:08:25. > :08:29.works with young gang members. The police have changed to all
:08:29. > :08:32.intents and purposes, haven't they, since the days of Stephen Lawrence,
:08:32. > :08:35.why is there still such a significant problem with a
:08:35. > :08:39.significant section of the black community? I think for a range of
:08:39. > :08:43.different reasons, actually. I think that a lot of the black
:08:43. > :08:47.community actually do recognise the changes that have occurred. The
:08:47. > :08:51.fact that policing now is much more professionlal, the way in which the
:08:51. > :08:54.police investigate critical incidents and murders, the
:08:54. > :08:57.introduction of family liaison officers. All of these very
:08:57. > :09:02.positive things that have happened as a result, actually, of the
:09:02. > :09:06.tragic murder of Stephen Lawrence and the subsequent Stephen Lawrence
:09:06. > :09:08.inquiry. That said, I think there are still a number very key
:09:08. > :09:13.challenges that the organisation still needs to face, not least, as
:09:13. > :09:15.was said in the report, in terms of stop and search, and the
:09:15. > :09:20.disproportionate numbers of young black men who are still stopped and
:09:20. > :09:24.searched on the streets of London. That is a very corrosive issue,
:09:24. > :09:30.that actually affects the trust and confidence that people have in the
:09:30. > :09:34.police service. How corrosive is it, this question of stop and search?
:09:34. > :09:38.It depends. You have got someed bad officers that just do it the wrong
:09:38. > :09:41.way. They see it as a green light to have an opportunity to just
:09:41. > :09:43.victimise people, you know, like there is some bad officers out
:09:44. > :09:53.there. You might not believe it, but there is bad officers out there,
:09:54. > :09:54.
:09:54. > :09:57.giving a bad namer for the rest. you think they are a minority, the
:09:57. > :10:00.bad officers? Nowadays they are a minority. These days they will get
:10:00. > :10:04.moved to somewhere elsewhere they are not a problem, you know. So the
:10:04. > :10:09.police have changed? The police have change. I'm 37, from a very
:10:09. > :10:12.young age I was getting arrested and police now, because they have
:10:12. > :10:15.gotten younger, they have got new recruits coming in, because they
:10:15. > :10:19.are younger they are more down to earth, more diverse, more
:10:19. > :10:24.acceptable to other people and other cultures. But they still have
:10:24. > :10:27.the hierarchy, which are the old set mind people, who basically
:10:27. > :10:31.control everything. Do you understand what I'm saying to you?
:10:31. > :10:36.If a good officers, good in his heart, wanting to do his job, he
:10:36. > :10:40.can't tell a bad officer that you can't behave like that towards the
:10:40. > :10:44.youth, he has to back up his colleague, everybody ends up
:10:45. > :10:48.looking bad, you lose trust in the police, everybody ends up doing
:10:48. > :10:52.their own thing. How does it look to you? All of the research over
:10:52. > :10:57.the past few years shows that feeling that you are treated fairly
:10:57. > :11:00.and properly is a major issue around confidence. If parts of the
:11:00. > :11:04.community don't feel they are treated fairly, that impacts on of
:11:04. > :11:07.confidence in policing and the ability of the police to deliver
:11:07. > :11:10.their job. I think Madix touch on something really important. There
:11:10. > :11:15.are a number of officers who use stop and search frequently, they do
:11:15. > :11:18.a lot of stop and search, but they do it in a way which is is seen as
:11:18. > :11:24.acceptable and proper, with the people they are working with. They
:11:24. > :11:30.do it in a way that is open, they understand the dynamic of what's
:11:30. > :11:34.happening, and they work with people to carry out their search.
:11:34. > :11:39.There are some others who aren't as God at it. It is a really difficult
:11:39. > :11:42.thing to do -- good at it, it is a really difficult thing to do. And
:11:43. > :11:46.there are some, as Madix describes, are those who shouldn't be on the
:11:46. > :11:50.streets doing these things. The mix of all that together, particularly
:11:50. > :11:54.with the way we police in London, means for some people, for some
:11:54. > :12:00.communities, there is a real feeling of unfairness. How big an
:12:00. > :12:03.issue is this question of the ethnic nature of the police?
:12:03. > :12:07.Clearly the proportion of ethnic minority police officers has gone
:12:07. > :12:14.up. Still at the very top of the police, there are 117 senior
:12:14. > :12:17.officers, three of mem belong to black and the nick comue -- them
:12:17. > :12:20.belong to black and ethnic communities? I don't think it
:12:20. > :12:24.matters if you are white, black or blue, to be a police officer you
:12:24. > :12:27.have to be a certain frame of mind and mentality, if you have that you
:12:27. > :12:31.will get into the police force. It is a mentality, I don't think
:12:31. > :12:35.putting 1,000 black officers in the police will change them. I disagree.
:12:35. > :12:39.I really think it is important that our public. It is good to see them
:12:39. > :12:43.there, but it doesn't change anything. It is crucial that they
:12:43. > :12:46.reflect the population they serve. The black police officers that are
:12:46. > :12:51.there do show they are able to change from the inside. If you look
:12:51. > :12:58.at the work, First Minister, of the Black Police Association, and other
:12:58. > :13:02.key individual -- for instance of the Black Police Association, and
:13:02. > :13:06.other key individual, not just trying to cajole their white
:13:06. > :13:09.officers to be better, but working as a key conduit between the black
:13:09. > :13:14.community. They play a dual role inside and outside the the figures
:13:14. > :13:18.that we see, the increase that we see in BME officers, is good, but
:13:18. > :13:22.it isn't nearly as good as what it ought to be. All too often the
:13:22. > :13:27.police's argument is it takes time to get there. That is partially
:13:27. > :13:33.true. But actually, given that we have taken, it has taken so long, I
:13:33. > :13:36.mean, I think that there needs to be a more radical solution to this.
:13:36. > :13:41.Positive discrimination? absolutely not. I chaired the race
:13:41. > :13:44.and faith inquiry, we delivered our report in 2010, one of our key
:13:44. > :13:48.recommendations that the Government introduce multipoint entry, so
:13:48. > :13:53.people can enter the service at different levels. I think that will
:13:53. > :13:57.be a key aspect in solving the representation issue. There is a
:13:57. > :14:02.thing which I think we mustn't miss, the police service over the past
:14:02. > :14:06.ten years has put an awful lot of for the into changing what it looks
:14:06. > :14:10.like.S focus on getting black and the nick minority people to join
:14:10. > :14:12.the force. -- ethnic minority people to join the force. People
:14:12. > :14:18.weren't joining ten years ago. We are now in a position where people
:14:18. > :14:22.are joining and coming through. I think Cindy is right, the race and
:14:22. > :14:26.faith inquiry and all the inquiries to date have really failed to
:14:26. > :14:30.galvanise the movement of black and ethnic minority officers through
:14:30. > :14:33.the ranks into the positions of senior leadership. Something
:14:33. > :14:37.different needs to be done. But what I have seen in the last few
:14:37. > :14:41.years something different, in the way that people are being held up
:14:41. > :14:45.and brought along, and in the way that Liberty group we are talking
:14:45. > :14:50.about, actually given the power to get through themselves, rather than
:14:50. > :14:57.to be forced or shoe horn into a new post. How much -- shoe horned
:14:57. > :15:01.into a new post. How much of the rioting we saw in the summer was
:15:01. > :15:07.about the chasam between some young people and the police?
:15:07. > :15:11.personally, firstly, about these black officers, sorry, I have to
:15:11. > :15:15.say this, these black officers that are in the police and in the
:15:15. > :15:21.communities, usually, yeah, nine times out of ten, they are the ones
:15:21. > :15:25.that step out of the van first, and be rude, because they are black, do
:15:25. > :15:29.you understand. They will force themselves. That is one heck of a
:15:29. > :15:32.generalisation? I have seen it, street level, I have seen it many
:15:32. > :15:35.times, do you understand, don't get me wrong, there is black officers
:15:35. > :15:40.that are good and doing what they are supposeded to be doing, a lot
:15:40. > :15:44.of the time, a lot of these ethnic minorities are coming out at these
:15:44. > :15:48.at black people, because they are black. Thinking they have got the
:15:48. > :15:52.right to be extra, because they are black. I'm not talking from figures,
:15:52. > :15:57.I haven't seen no figures or statistics, I'm talking about me
:15:57. > :16:00.being on the street and talking to the youth, I deal with them every
:16:00. > :16:03.day. How much do you think the riot that is we saw this summer were to
:16:03. > :16:07.do with the chasam between some young people and the police?
:16:07. > :16:14.think it was an aspect, but it wasn't, I think we need to be
:16:14. > :16:19.careful not to rayify what happened, the riots took on different forms
:16:19. > :16:25.in different places at different times. Some of it was opportuneism,
:16:25. > :16:29.some of it is relate to poverty and desperation. Some of it was mass
:16:29. > :16:32.hysteria, jumping on the bandwagon. Some people had the opportunity to
:16:32. > :16:36.have the most exciting experience of their life, and they have said
:16:36. > :16:39.so. It is important to keep it into perspective, and don't run away
:16:40. > :16:43.with the idea that the riots were as a result of police community
:16:44. > :16:46.relations. That may have been the case in 1981, it wasn't the case in
:16:47. > :16:49.2011. Thank you very much.
:16:49. > :16:54.The people camp outside St Paul's Cathedral have a minimum of seven
:16:54. > :16:58.days before they discover whether the courts are going to let them
:16:58. > :17:02.stay there. Their effect on global capitalism so far hasn't been
:17:02. > :17:06.noticable, their effect on the Church of England has been enormous.
:17:06. > :17:13.Two senior clerics have fallen on their swords or out of their pulpit,
:17:13. > :17:16.whatever the expression. The church as a whole seems highly
:17:16. > :17:26.discombobulated about the situation and what it has to say about
:17:26. > :17:28.
:17:28. > :17:34.western capitalism. It was an unholy row.
:17:34. > :17:42.The combination of Wren's masterpiece, anti-capitalist
:17:42. > :17:50.demonstrators and church politics, proved to be a volatile mix. It led
:17:50. > :17:57.to the voluntary defenestration of Giles Fraser, he resigned as Canon
:17:57. > :18:00.Chancellor at St Paul's, this a pre-emptive measure against the
:18:00. > :18:04.forcible eviction of people in this camp, that hasn't happened, at
:18:04. > :18:07.least not yet. On the night the protestors arrived, last October,
:18:07. > :18:12.Mr Fraser had personally intervened with the police to prevent them
:18:12. > :18:15.being removed. We are very happy for people to exer size their right
:18:15. > :18:19.peacefully to protest. That is what they are doing. The Parson has come
:18:19. > :18:22.down from the Cathedral and the police, and they did, there was no
:18:23. > :18:27.damage. The authorities of the Channel Tunnel were clearly willing
:18:27. > :18:31.to agree to the -- of the church were clearly willing to agree to
:18:31. > :18:35.the forcible eviction of the protestors, it comes a point where
:18:35. > :18:38.every person, church leader or not has to decide which side of the
:18:38. > :18:43.line they stand. There are different elements within the
:18:43. > :18:46.church, different political stands within Christianity, and Giles, I
:18:46. > :18:50.think, is an example of someone who has taken a stance that other
:18:50. > :18:55.people in the church will disagree with. That is only healthy.
:18:55. > :18:59.But some voices in the church say events at St Paul's have been a PR
:18:59. > :19:02.disaster. And that the Clergy should pay more attention to
:19:02. > :19:09.spreading the lessons of the Bible rather than taking up issues in the
:19:09. > :19:13.news. The folk who are, in my opinion,
:19:13. > :19:17.getting it entirely wrong, are what I would describe as those who are
:19:17. > :19:21.utterly liberal, and anything goes, and we pick anything up from the
:19:22. > :19:26.local press, the newspapers, anything that is going in the media,
:19:26. > :19:30.and building it into the church and saying this is what we do now, we
:19:30. > :19:35.are now in 2012, everything is different, we have moved on. Wrong,
:19:35. > :19:39.we haven't. The Bible is still the Bible, the authoritative word of
:19:39. > :19:45.God, and we should be, I believe, living by that word, and that
:19:45. > :19:50.standard. We should be speaking out into the nation, into the world
:19:50. > :19:55.about God's word, about what Jesus said, and not taking on the world's
:19:55. > :20:02.view to our lives. Which is not going to do us any good.
:20:02. > :20:11.It is the routine, isn't it. Negotiate the deal. Close the deal.
:20:11. > :20:17.Celebrate the deal. Get slaughtered on 82Pomeron. The hit sitcom of the
:20:17. > :20:22.year follows the fortunes of doggedly conscientious London
:20:22. > :20:29.Clergyman, what with Rev and the argument at St Paul's, vicars find
:20:29. > :20:36.themselves in the unusual position of being in the public eye. Because
:20:36. > :20:39.I spilt my guts up there, Lehman's, the bank, very little came back,
:20:39. > :20:43.very little back, I don't think he they get it. It has turned out very
:20:43. > :20:48.well for the church, according to one historian. The church has found
:20:48. > :20:51.itself a for yum for debate, and because of what's happened, and
:20:51. > :20:56.because of the all awkwardness and the different ways the church is
:20:56. > :21:01.talking p it, people have paid far more interest in what leaders of
:21:01. > :21:06.the church have to say about economics, and politics, in this
:21:06. > :21:10.area, than they would do, simply if an Archbishop had addressed it in
:21:10. > :21:14.his Christmas ceremony Monday. what of the St Paul's camp itself,
:21:14. > :21:18.a judge will rule next week on an application by the Corporation of
:21:18. > :21:24.London, which would like to see the back of it. I think we are
:21:24. > :21:28.reasonable people. But very strong willed people. We will have to wait
:21:28. > :21:32.and see what happens. There are discussions happening in terms of
:21:32. > :21:39.what our response would be to that. But whatever happens the fight will
:21:39. > :21:43.continue. Both sides seem well dug in over
:21:43. > :21:51.the battle for the Cathedral. Barring an unexpected Pauline
:21:51. > :21:56.conversion. Giles Fraser is with us now for his
:21:56. > :21:59.first extended television interview, since he resigned. What do you
:21:59. > :22:03.think should happen to the Occupy camp? It is up to them to decide
:22:03. > :22:10.what they should do. If they want to stay there they should be
:22:10. > :22:12.allowed to? I think they need to think about, they raiseded an
:22:12. > :22:17.important issue, they have raised a really important issue. What would
:22:17. > :22:20.you like them to do? I would like them to keep on raising that issue.
:22:20. > :22:24.By staying there? I don't want to be in the position of saying for
:22:24. > :22:30.them to move on. I understand there are people who do want to say that.
:22:30. > :22:33.But I think the issue they have raised is sow important, and has
:22:33. > :22:36.actually galvanised a huge and important conversation, that though
:22:36. > :22:39.I understand there are very practical problems with the camp
:22:39. > :22:44.being there, and there are practical problems. There really
:22:44. > :22:47.are, aren't there? They are not insurmountable, but there are
:22:47. > :22:51.practicable problems. I think the bigger picture is the questions
:22:51. > :22:56.that they are raising. So I'm just staying with the bigger picture,
:22:56. > :23:01.and I'm going to duck some of the more practical, difficult, local
:23:01. > :23:04.issues. Because you don't know what the
:23:04. > :23:08.answers to those are? I don't know what the answers are, but they are
:23:08. > :23:12.doing such a valuable job in raising a big question about what
:23:12. > :23:16.is the nature of ethical capitalism. Can they do it in any other way
:23:16. > :23:19.than having a camp outside St Paul's? This is a global movement
:23:19. > :23:24.and very successful in generating precisely the conversation they
:23:24. > :23:31.have wanted to. So, to some extent I think it has been a very
:23:31. > :23:34.successful thing. So, despite the fact that many of the church
:23:34. > :23:38.authorities, and the Corporation of London, think that this is a
:23:38. > :23:43.nuisance, which should be removed, you just don't take a position
:23:43. > :23:47.either one way or the other? I just want to see the value in this
:23:47. > :23:52.situation. It is absolutely right that there are a sort of, there are
:23:52. > :23:55.practical problems with the camp being there. But actually, the
:23:55. > :24:00.practical problems can be overstated. I live 100 yard or so
:24:00. > :24:05.from the camp. Not for much longer? Not for that much longer. But I
:24:05. > :24:09.have done throughout its time there. I understand, I see it every day.
:24:09. > :24:14.People can walk through, there is no problem with people getting past
:24:14. > :24:17.that area. I actually think the problem most have with it is it is
:24:17. > :24:22.some sort of eyesore, that is actually the problem they have with
:24:22. > :24:27.it. As far as you are concerned it can stay there indefinitely?
:24:27. > :24:32.think there needs to be a well worked out exit strategy by the
:24:32. > :24:36.protestors themselves. They can't stay there for of. Actually they
:24:36. > :24:42.probably would have gone -- forever. Actually they probably would have
:24:42. > :24:47.gone by now had the Corporation of London not decided to take out the
:24:47. > :24:50.legal action. They misunderstood the psychology of protest, pushing
:24:50. > :24:54.against a protest means it will push it back. A nice cup of
:24:54. > :24:57.Anglican tea and warm embrace might have...they are raising important
:24:57. > :24:59.issues, I want to stay with the important issues. You are on the
:24:59. > :25:05.side of the people who are protesting? I believe in the right
:25:05. > :25:14.of people to peacefully protest, yes. Despite the fact that it
:25:14. > :25:17.inconviences others? Yes. You're quite right to say that my position
:25:18. > :25:22.is uncomfortable. It is not a position? It is, I think they are
:25:22. > :25:25.raising important issues, and...But When you were at the Cathedral, and
:25:25. > :25:30.you were what chairman of the Finance Committee, and the finances
:25:30. > :25:33.of the Cathedral were seriously affected by the presence of this
:25:33. > :25:36.camp, that was an impossible position to be in, wasn't? I don't
:25:37. > :25:41.think it was, really. I think the key issues are theological ones, it
:25:41. > :25:44.it is not about money, the question is what do we stand for as a
:25:44. > :25:47.church? As St Paul's Cathedral. What do you stand for as a church?
:25:47. > :25:54.What were the reasons for which the Cathedral was built. One has to go
:25:54. > :25:59.back to our founding ideas, go back to the Bible, as Alison said in
:25:59. > :26:03.your piece. If you look there you will see issues of economic justice
:26:03. > :26:08.are the number one moral issue in the Bible. It it is more than the
:26:08. > :26:11.obsession with sex and those sorts of things, that is what the Bible
:26:12. > :26:15.regularly goes on about. When the church is saying this is a real
:26:15. > :26:19.embarrassment to us, we are being deprived of an income of what
:26:19. > :26:25.�20,000 a day? Who is saying that. What church figures are standing up
:26:25. > :26:32.and saying that. One has to be very, very careful that we distinguish
:26:32. > :26:35.between the needs of a national icon, a building, and the church as
:26:35. > :26:39.an organisation that spread the gospel. There are times when those
:26:39. > :26:43.two things are in tension. My word, there is loads of tensions around
:26:43. > :26:46.preaching the gospel in a place like St Paul's Cathedral. You are,
:26:46. > :26:50.Jesus said some incredibly hard things about money, and you are
:26:50. > :26:54.saying them in the boiler room of global capitalism, it is obviously
:26:54. > :26:58.a hugely tense place into which to negotiate all of that difference.
:26:58. > :27:02.How much money are you spending a year on keeping St Paul's clean?
:27:02. > :27:09.lot money. Millions? Yes, we cleaned it over the last ten years
:27:09. > :27:14.and it was �42 million to clean the Cathedral. So absolutely right. You
:27:14. > :27:19.have to ask yourself about extraordinary compromises and
:27:19. > :27:23.balances between the needs of having this great, I believe in
:27:23. > :27:27.having church buildings, I do believe in having church buildings.
:27:27. > :27:30.But I believe you have to recognise the reasons for which those church
:27:30. > :27:36.buildings were built. Are you uncomfortable with the position the
:27:36. > :27:43.church has taken or failed to take so far on this whole crisis in
:27:43. > :27:50.western capitalism? I think the church was pretty slow out of the
:27:50. > :27:53.blokes in 2008, I think it had -- blocks in 2008. It had a pretty bad
:27:53. > :27:57.credit crunch. The church is beginning to realise it has to get
:27:57. > :28:03.its act together. There used to be very few sermons I can remember
:28:03. > :28:06.about money. Now I did a little bit of a survey on bishops' sermons
:28:06. > :28:12.over Christmas, and Occupy and issues of economics are more up
:28:12. > :28:17.there, good. If I say to you you are an old lefty, you used to be a
:28:17. > :28:21.member of the SWPE, you are carrying a similar sort of church
:28:21. > :28:29.in the Church of England, you would accept the distinction between
:28:29. > :28:32.constructive capitalism and predatory capitalism like Ed
:28:32. > :28:36.Milliband? I am not against capitalism, I used to be a Marxist
:28:36. > :28:40.in my youth, I am not any longerment I think we need a
:28:40. > :28:44.version of capitalism that works for a greater number of people.
:28:44. > :28:47.Have we got it now? I don't think we have it now. I don't think we
:28:48. > :28:54.know how to get it either. That is part of the problem. I don't I
:28:54. > :28:57.don't think the people. Taxation normally the way? As a way of
:28:57. > :29:02.redistributing it. That is one way of doing it, the problem is that
:29:02. > :29:05.the City is so powerful in terms of how much money that it generates
:29:05. > :29:10.through taxation, is that it ends up being itself too big to fail,
:29:10. > :29:14.too important in our economy, and so actually it tends to be able to
:29:14. > :29:19.have a sort of muscle which is very difficult for a Government to deal
:29:19. > :29:23.with. That's part the problem. It is the size and importance, it is
:29:23. > :29:27.not in balance, in proportion to other things. It would be lovely to
:29:27. > :29:30.see that. What would you do with it? The very interesting thing
:29:30. > :29:34.about the protestors, people criticiseded the protestors for
:29:34. > :29:39.saying they don't really know what they want, they don't know what to
:29:39. > :29:43.do with the situation. I have been to meetings of very distinguished
:29:43. > :29:48.merchant bankers and people involved in it, and I would say the
:29:48. > :29:52.same question, they would say they don't know either. The level of
:29:52. > :29:58.question about what ethical capitalism looks like is one that
:29:58. > :30:03.we are just beginning to grapple with. There are all sorts of
:30:03. > :30:08.technical things. The separation of casino banking from high street
:30:08. > :30:12.banking, the Vickers report, but actually economics used to be, with
:30:12. > :30:15.people like Adam Smith, it used to be a moral, it was part of morality,
:30:16. > :30:22.it was part of ethics, that is how it originate. It became something
:30:22. > :30:27.too techle kal, that most of us -- originate. It became something too
:30:27. > :30:31.technical for most of us to understand it. It wasn't the
:30:31. > :30:35.church's fault that we were fingers and thumbs about what a Credit
:30:36. > :30:41.Default Swap was. You and I wouldn't be able to explain that
:30:41. > :30:47.properly. We became distanced from it because it was too complicate.
:30:47. > :30:53.He has flickered not shone, that is the less than glowing report on one
:30:53. > :30:57.of -- from one of his advisers. There is a doctrine of Blue Labour,
:30:57. > :31:02.and using an article in the New Statesman to offer a critque of
:31:02. > :31:06.Labour at the moment. He said he was trying to be helpful. I spoke
:31:06. > :31:11.to the BBC's deputy political editor earlier.
:31:11. > :31:16.What has Lord Glasman had to say? Once you have waded through the
:31:17. > :31:21.article and the quotes and extraordinary phrases like "the
:31:21. > :31:24.frat ternisation of the impossible", when he gets to his critque of Ed
:31:24. > :31:29.Milliband he's explicit. He said Ed Milliband's leadership has no
:31:29. > :31:33.strategy, no narrative and little energy. He says Mr Miliband has not
:31:33. > :31:38.broken through. He has flickered rather than shone, and he has
:31:38. > :31:42.nudged not led. He also goes on to criticise Labour's economic policy
:31:42. > :31:46.at the moment. Specifically referring to old faces are from the
:31:46. > :31:51.Brown era, who are stuck in defending Labour's record in all
:31:51. > :31:55.the wrong ways. We didn't spend too much money, we will cut less fast,
:31:56. > :31:59.but we won't tell you how. Labour tonight are saying, look, Lord
:31:59. > :32:03.Glasman has had no official role within the Labour leadership. He's
:32:03. > :32:08.just a free-thinking backbench Labour peer and an axe dem you can.
:32:08. > :32:13.But this is a guy who -- academic, this is a guy who was given a
:32:13. > :32:18.peerage by Ed Milliband last year. He is one who has had Ed Milliband
:32:18. > :32:21.to write a forward for one of the books he has written. He has given
:32:21. > :32:25.advice to Ed Milliband in the past. It can't just be dismissed as
:32:25. > :32:29.Labour want to tonight. He has claimed he's merely wanting to be
:32:29. > :32:34.supportive, is he? He does say he supports Mr Miliband, and he does
:32:34. > :32:39.praise, in particular, Mr Miliband's campaign against what he
:32:39. > :32:46.calls called predatory capitalism. But this document will launch a
:32:46. > :32:49.thousand Conservative leaflets and posters, it will feed a lot of
:32:49. > :32:53.ammunition to Mr Cameron in Prime Minister's Questions in the days
:32:53. > :32:56.and weeks ahead. It gives voice to concerns shared by others in the
:32:56. > :32:59.Labour Party. Not just about Ed Milliband's leadership and people
:32:59. > :33:03.who want him to put vim into it. But also the debate taking place in
:33:03. > :33:06.Labour about its economic record in the past and how it gets into the
:33:06. > :33:09.economic debate into the future. How does it start taking the
:33:09. > :33:15.argument to the coalition, talking about growth, talking about deficit
:33:15. > :33:18.reduction. If as a party it has yet to face up to its own record in
:33:18. > :33:24.Government. That is what Lord Glasman is putting his fringeer on.
:33:24. > :33:28.It is a debate going on largely behind the scenes, tonight it is
:33:28. > :33:33.centre stage. Time to think about the rainforest. It is received
:33:33. > :33:41.wisdom that these enormous and enormously important expanses of
:33:41. > :33:44.the earth's surface are being destroyed as never before. Them
:33:44. > :33:49.Amazon rainforest has become the focus of intense national concern,
:33:49. > :33:57.as the Brazilian economy powers ahead to overtake our's. As Justin
:33:57. > :34:05.Rowlatt reports now, things are changing.
:34:05. > :34:11.In a sleepy town on the edge of the Amazon, officers from the Brazilian
:34:11. > :34:16.Environment Agency relax in the minces before a jungle raid.
:34:16. > :34:20.Inside their HQ, the commanders plan the attack. What he says is
:34:20. > :34:25.don't worey about guns, the guns that they have are -- worry about
:34:25. > :34:30.guns, the guns they have are likely to be hunting guns, nothing serious,
:34:30. > :34:38.nothing to worry about. For years the forest frontier was out of
:34:38. > :34:43.control. In the decade to 2004, an average of almost 20,000 square
:34:43. > :34:48.kilometres of forest was lost each year. That is really an area the
:34:48. > :34:58.size of Wales every single year. What has changed is the attitude of
:34:58. > :34:58.
:34:58. > :35:05.the Brazilian Government. Eight years ago Brazil realised had
:35:05. > :35:10.a unique opportunity. It could go green, cut carbon emissions, just
:35:10. > :35:17.by stopping the destruction of the forest, and crucial low, it would
:35:17. > :35:23.barely affect economic growth. Brazil decided to declare war on
:35:23. > :35:29.deforestation. How confident are you that Brazil can successfully
:35:29. > :35:33.protect the Amazon? Total. TRANSLATION: You can't go into
:35:33. > :35:37.battle thinking you will lose. That is certainly what Churchill thought.
:35:37. > :35:42.In the past Brazil's forests were cut down because the state wanted
:35:42. > :35:50.them cut down. Now the state has decideded it doesn't want that any
:35:50. > :35:53.more. -- decided it doesn't want that any more. A key problem has
:35:53. > :36:01.always been the sheer size of the Amazon. There is a big area cleared
:36:01. > :36:04.completely. I can see a logging truck there in the clearing.
:36:04. > :36:14.We have just landed the helicopter and the officers are going over to
:36:14. > :36:20.
:36:20. > :36:25.the truck here, which clearly has been with freshly cut logs on it.
:36:25. > :36:29.The guys have run off. The guys seem to have run off into the woods.
:36:29. > :36:37.They were here a moment ago. As we land they were still here. They
:36:37. > :36:43.must be around here some where. IBAMA has only six helicopters and
:36:43. > :36:53.600 officers in the field at any one time. Has to patrol an area of
:36:53. > :36:59.four million square kilometres, the size of a continent.
:36:59. > :37:02.But new technology has come to the aid of the Amazon. At the IBAMA
:37:02. > :37:08.head quarters Brasilia, they want to show me the powerful new weapon
:37:08. > :37:13.in their army. We are about to enter the nerve
:37:13. > :37:20.centre of Brazil's operation to stop deforestation. This is it?
:37:20. > :37:25.situation room. I have to say it is a little bit
:37:25. > :37:30.disappointing, it looks to me a bit like a call centre in a bank or
:37:30. > :37:33.insurance company, all these guys behind desks.
:37:33. > :37:38.But the new satellite monitoring technology they are using means it
:37:38. > :37:44.is now almost impossible to cut down tracts of the forest without
:37:44. > :37:50.being spot. How often do you get satellite images? Each two days we
:37:50. > :37:54.receive the images and send to our field people.
:37:54. > :37:59.So you can literally watch deforestation unfolding sitting
:37:59. > :38:04.here at your desk in the middle of Brasilia? We can arrive there and
:38:04. > :38:12.punish the people that are doing it. So you stop them just as they begin
:38:12. > :38:15.to cut the forest? Yes. It has made IBAMA muchp more effective. But the
:38:15. > :38:20.environment -- much more effective, but the Environment Agency still
:38:20. > :38:30.doesn't get its man every time. They have run off? Yes. They have
:38:30. > :38:30.
:38:30. > :38:34.run off into the forest. What do we do now? So we're going to wait here
:38:34. > :38:44.for a bit and see what happens, see whether they come back.
:38:44. > :38:46.
:38:46. > :38:51.I will be honest, seemed like a very long shot to me. Because it
:38:51. > :39:01.isn't just the attitude of the Government that is changing. John
:39:01. > :39:02.
:39:02. > :39:07.Carter is an exUS special Ops soldier, turned Amazonian rauncher.
:39:07. > :39:14.Raunchers and farmers have traditionally been the baddies in
:39:14. > :39:19.this daughter. Relentlessly cutting down forest for cattle or crops.
:39:19. > :39:24.But John had a change of heart. He took me out to a project he has set
:39:25. > :39:30.up to project river turtles. That is amazing. Amazing, today is the
:39:30. > :39:40.day they are supposed to be hatch. They are quite strong these little
:39:40. > :39:46.things. He was about ten feet away from me, ten years ago, it
:39:46. > :39:50.epitomises the Amazon to me, and also the frontier wild wilderness
:39:50. > :39:54.that still exists. It was one thing I always tell my wife. If there is
:39:54. > :39:59.ever a day when there is no Jaguar left in the region, that is when I
:39:59. > :40:02.want to move. John leads an alliance of ranchers and farmers
:40:03. > :40:12.who want to improve environmental management on their farms. That
:40:13. > :40:15.
:40:15. > :40:25.means protecting the forest too. John took me to see one of the
:40:25. > :40:30.
:40:30. > :40:34.members of his alliance. He arrived here 26 years ago, this
:40:34. > :40:40.whole area was dense rainforest then. He has cut most of it down to
:40:40. > :40:44.grow soya. But the combination of tough new
:40:44. > :40:54.Government rules and John's silver- tongueed persuasion, have made him
:40:54. > :40:56.
:40:56. > :41:01.change his ways. John's idealism has been like a light to us. I have
:41:01. > :41:04.3% forest now, I have planted new trees by my streams, the attitude
:41:04. > :41:09.of the farmers has really changed, he now we want to do the right
:41:09. > :41:14.thing. John's powers of persuasion became
:41:14. > :41:21.apparent when I found myself agreeing to a dip in the river near
:41:21. > :41:25.his ranch. Together with a black caiman, the Amazon's top predator.
:41:25. > :41:30.He just popped up out of the water and got him. The alliance has been
:41:30. > :41:34.running for five years now, and has 500 members, with farms covering
:41:34. > :41:38.almost three million hectares. John hopes in time there will be
:41:38. > :41:42.financial incentives for farmers to do the right thing too, access to
:41:42. > :41:45.new markets, maybe a premium price for their beef and soya. Our whole
:41:45. > :41:50.desire is to produce something the consumer can trust hands down.
:41:50. > :41:54.There will come a time when we have enough volume that we can supply
:41:54. > :42:04.McDonalds for all of Latin America. You know it is clean and truly
:42:04. > :42:05.
:42:05. > :42:09.producing right. This combination of different pressures, improved
:42:09. > :42:14.monitoring and enforcement by the Brazilian Government, the
:42:14. > :42:16.beginnings of a change of attitude among Amazonian farmers, and
:42:16. > :42:26.successful campaigning among pressure groups, have come together
:42:26. > :42:28.
:42:28. > :42:32.to remarkable effect. (gun shots)le
:42:32. > :42:36.The loggers did come back, here is one of them. He's a little bit
:42:36. > :42:46.shock to have been caught by us, and the helicopter is now coming
:42:46. > :42:48.
:42:48. > :42:54.back, we will go and see if the agent will catch the other one.
:42:54. > :42:58.(Last year saw the lowest level of deforestation in the Amazon since
:42:58. > :43:02.records began in the 1980s, 6,000 square kilometres were cut. It
:43:02. > :43:06.seems the underlying economics haven't really changed. Does it
:43:06. > :43:12.worry you that you are damaging the forest? TRANSLATION: I know it is
:43:12. > :43:22.wrong, I have seen on TV, but what can I do? It I don't work I don't
:43:22. > :43:29.
:43:29. > :43:33.eat. But in one remote Amazon state, they found a very unexpected way to
:43:33. > :43:42.begin to tilt the economics back in favour of the trees.
:43:42. > :43:46.It is 3.00am, I'm being led deep into the rainforest, wearing a
:43:46. > :43:53.rather bizarre traditional torch. Tito and I are equipped for action
:43:53. > :43:59.and about to head into the jungle to see a project that has achieved
:43:59. > :44:03.the Holy Grail of forest conservation, reversing the logic
:44:03. > :44:07.of deforestation, so it is more profitable for local people like
:44:07. > :44:17.Tito to keep the jungle standing than to cut it down. How have they
:44:17. > :44:27.
:44:27. > :44:36.done it? It's hard, oh, oh. This is rubber-tapping done in the
:44:36. > :44:43.traditional way, from rubber trees growing wild in the jungle. So how
:44:43. > :44:50.have they managed to make wild Amazonian rubber profitable again?
:44:50. > :44:57.Here is how, they use it to make these, the world's first
:44:57. > :45:03.rainforest-friendly condoms! Hundreds of millions of them every
:45:03. > :45:08.year. This is a condom testing area. These ladies are officially condom
:45:08. > :45:11.testers. It is a funny job. He yes. But all of the activities here need
:45:11. > :45:17.subsidy, they wouldn't be profitable on their own. Where will
:45:17. > :45:21.you make them get that money from? All of our policies are trying to
:45:21. > :45:26.deforestation, if we protect the forest, we don't have the
:45:26. > :45:36.deforestation, if we don't have that we have carbon emissions. We
:45:36. > :45:40.
:45:40. > :45:45.can have carbon credits that we can Those carbon credits could soon
:45:45. > :45:50.have real value. At last month's international climate conference in
:45:50. > :45:56.Durban, there was preliminary agreement on a scheme to
:45:56. > :46:03.fundamental cash, up to $-- funnel cash, up to $100 billion of it,
:46:03. > :46:10.into projects like this. But in the past year, there has
:46:10. > :46:14.been a huge backlash from the farming sector in Brazil.
:46:14. > :46:19.The Brazilian parliament has voted to cut the area of forest Amazon
:46:19. > :46:29.farmers have to keep on their land from 80 to 50%. The change can only
:46:29. > :46:35.be stopped if the Brazilian President vetos it.
:46:35. > :46:40.So, Dan, what are you doing? Well, we're just putting out a little
:46:41. > :46:45.kerosene, so the fire can get started. Dan Nepstad is studying
:46:45. > :46:51.the effect of fire on the forest, and the long-term future of the
:46:51. > :46:54.Amazon, he's one of the world's leading forest scientists. It
:46:54. > :46:59.doesn't feel right playing with much matches in the middle of the
:46:59. > :47:02.rainforest, but if you say it is in the name of science, you are the
:47:02. > :47:07.scientist. Do the honours. That is kind of you. Do I get the
:47:07. > :47:11.opportunity to set fire to the rainforest, to the Amazon.
:47:11. > :47:15.Incredible as it sounds, he believes it is not too late to save
:47:15. > :47:20.the Amazon. Almost 80% of the forest is still standing. 80%, but
:47:21. > :47:26.he says the battle has reached a crucial phase.
:47:26. > :47:30.In six years deforestation has come down 70% below the previous ten-
:47:30. > :47:34.year average. So Brazil really needs to be commended and applauded,
:47:34. > :47:39.this is a huge accomplishment. Whether they can keep it up, that
:47:39. > :47:42.is the big question. There is an alternative pathway
:47:42. > :47:46.that says the Government becomes more lax, the market signal
:47:46. > :47:51.disappears and it becomes a free- for-all, decisions made over the
:47:51. > :47:54.next few months will probably determine which direction Brazil
:47:54. > :47:59.goes. For years, the received wisdom has
:47:59. > :48:04.been that the world's tropical forests are doom. Well Brazil is
:48:04. > :48:08.demonstrating that deer forestation can be tamed. -- deforestation can
:48:08. > :48:14.be tamed. The achievements are fragile, but it is a cause for hope.
:48:14. > :48:19.Hope that this place, the Amazon rainforest, the greatest ecosystem