:00:10. > :00:15.Gootd good evening, British planes helped secure the skies above Libya
:00:15. > :00:21.in the overthrow of Colonel Gaddafi. Were British forces deployed on the
:00:21. > :00:25.ground as well. The air war we know about, but tonight we piece
:00:25. > :00:28.together the cland desTyne missions of some of the country's most
:00:28. > :00:32.secret soldiers. Our investigation reveals Britain
:00:32. > :00:35.did have boots on the ground in Libya, with details of who they
:00:35. > :00:41.were and what role they were meant to play.
:00:41. > :00:45.The Conservative MP, Rory Stewart, and a writer are here to discuss.
:00:45. > :00:50.This man tells us how British Secret Service agents came to call
:00:50. > :00:54.on him while he was being held in one of Colonel Gaddafi's prisons.
:00:54. > :00:58.Why, please explain to our tax- payers, should we pay a single
:00:58. > :01:02.penny to clear up the mess left by Silvio Berlusconi?
:01:02. > :01:07.Our economics editor ask the Italian President the question on
:01:07. > :01:11.the nation's lips. And does the well being of a bunch
:01:11. > :01:15.of birds justify beginning the Mayor of London's pet project, of a
:01:15. > :01:18.new airport. This is where Boris wants to put
:01:18. > :01:23.his island. But is this really about building a new hub airport
:01:23. > :01:33.for the south-east of England, or building up the mayor's chances of
:01:33. > :01:34.
:01:34. > :01:36.being re-elected? The British involvement in the
:01:36. > :01:41.campaign to overthrow Colonel Gaddafi was a very public one, or
:01:41. > :01:46.rather part of it. The use of RAF aircraft was very public. The
:01:46. > :01:50.fighting on the ground was said to have been done by Libyans. But
:01:50. > :01:59.Newsnight has learned that British soldiers were on the ground in
:01:59. > :02:04.Libya, alongside the anti-Gaddafi forces. Our defence editor reports.
:02:04. > :02:07.Britain's secret war in Libya evolved in fits and starts. But its
:02:07. > :02:14.architects believe it helped finally to tip the balance in
:02:14. > :02:19.favour of the Libyan revolutionaries, enabling them to
:02:19. > :02:24.seize the country and capture Gaddafi.
:02:24. > :02:31.Colonel Gaddafi said he would hunt you down like rats, but you showed
:02:31. > :02:36.the courage of loins wae, slut your courage.
:02:36. > :02:40.-- And we salute your courage. success, we learned, did involve
:02:40. > :02:46.deploying the SAS on the ground to help. But the tale of how they got
:02:46. > :02:51.there wasn't simple. The Libyan revolution started in
:02:51. > :02:56.February last year. Very quickly the Libyan Armed Forces split, and
:02:56. > :03:00.the leading rebels set themselves up in Benghazi.
:03:00. > :03:07.The British Government soon decided to send a rescue mission to the
:03:07. > :03:12.desert of southern Libya. It involved RAF Hercules aircraft, and
:03:12. > :03:16.a dozen marines of the sea squadron Special Boat Service. Ministry of
:03:16. > :03:21.Defence showed the mission, but not the commandos there to secure it.
:03:21. > :03:27.On the 27th of February, they founted three flights to take 150 -
:03:27. > :03:32.- mounted three flights to take 150 foreign oil workers, 20 British,
:03:32. > :03:37.from southern Libya to Malta. we got on to the plane there was
:03:37. > :03:42.two locals attacked the plane with large knives and machetes to try to
:03:42. > :03:45.rip the tyres. The special forces challenged them told them to stop,
:03:45. > :03:51.and fortunately somebody tackled them, brought the guys down and
:03:51. > :03:55.took them back. In the footage of the taxiing
:03:55. > :03:59.Hercules in halt at that, a clue appeared to the next phase of the
:03:59. > :04:04.operation. A special forces Chinook helicopter awaiting its mission.
:04:04. > :04:09.For in the chaos engulfing Libya, the Government decided to back the
:04:09. > :04:17.National Transitional Council, or NTC, and work for the overthrow of
:04:17. > :04:20.Gaddafi. There speaker, it is clear this is an illegitimate regime,
:04:20. > :04:24.that has lost the consent of its people. Our message to Colonel
:04:24. > :04:28.Gaddafi is simple, go now. The next phase of the operation involved a
:04:28. > :04:35.highly sensitive unit of British special forces, made up jointly of
:04:35. > :04:41.the SAS, and SBS, it is called E Squadron, and operates closely with
:04:41. > :04:45.MI6. Early in March six members of E Squadron boarded a Chinook
:04:45. > :04:49.helicopter, with two MI6 officers and flew to a place near Benghazi.
:04:49. > :04:55.They were going to meet rebel leaders. Why do it that way when
:04:55. > :04:59.there was a British friget in a harbour nearby. Apparently MI6
:04:59. > :05:03.wanted to avoid going near any British symbol of power. But the
:05:03. > :05:07.mission turned into a fiasco reported worldwide. A British
:05:07. > :05:11.diplomatic team detained by rebels in Libya has been released. Despite
:05:11. > :05:16.carrying everything needed for a covert mission, from civilian
:05:16. > :05:22.clothes to a variety of passports, the British had been nabd by armed
:05:22. > :05:27.local farmers. E Squadron had become unstuck almost immediately
:05:27. > :05:33.the British ambassador was left to plead with the NTC to release them.
:05:33. > :05:37.I hope to ask Mr Jalil if he might be able to intervene to help us
:05:37. > :05:43.clear up this misunderstanding, if there is anything we can do to help
:05:44. > :05:46.explain who they are and what they were doing. After this public
:05:46. > :05:50.embarrassment, British special forces were closed out of the
:05:50. > :05:54.picture for months, we have been told. But the visible commitment of
:05:54. > :05:58.planes and ships was growing. A couple of weeks later, France, the
:05:58. > :06:01.US and Britain started bombing Gaddafi's forces. And the stakes
:06:01. > :06:05.were raised again for the Cameron Government.
:06:06. > :06:12.It was time to send a properly accredited team to Benghazi to
:06:12. > :06:16.liaise with the NTC. By April, half-a-dozen army officers in plain
:06:16. > :06:21.clothes and intelligence people, were actively working in Benghazi
:06:21. > :06:24.to build capacity. An embryo defence ministry and a command
:06:24. > :06:31.structure. They operated in Benghazi, Misrata and near breing
:06:31. > :06:34.ga. But they were unarmed, and -- Breg a, but they were unarmed, and
:06:34. > :06:39.their main aim was getting Libyan units working to some sort of plan,
:06:39. > :06:43.and save them from being hit by accident by NATO.
:06:43. > :06:48.That happened a couple of times and we filmed these NTC units marking
:06:48. > :06:53.their vehicles with identification symbols, as a response.
:06:53. > :06:59.The poor record of these men led British liaison officers in
:06:59. > :07:04.Benghazi to argue for people able to raise their performance.
:07:04. > :07:08.The UN resolution that authorised NATO bombing specifically pro-hib
:07:08. > :07:12.bitted ground troops anywhere in -- prohibited ground troops anywhere
:07:12. > :07:16.in Libya. What about ground troops and special forces. We have learned
:07:16. > :07:19.that the National Security Council, shortly after the bombing started,
:07:19. > :07:24.tasked military chiefs to look at the feasiblilty of a train and
:07:24. > :07:28.equiff mission to the Libyan rebels. Publicly, meanwhile, ministers
:07:28. > :07:32.shyed away from talk of boots on the ground. This is not British
:07:32. > :07:37.ground combat forces going in. That's what the people mean by
:07:37. > :07:41.boots on the ground. We are very clear about the United Nations
:07:41. > :07:48.resolutions. They forbid any foreign occupation of any part of
:07:48. > :07:54.Libya, we will absolutely stick to that. The road to sending British
:07:55. > :08:00.special forces back into Libya lay via Qatar. The emrate had taken a
:08:00. > :08:03.strong stance against Gaddafi from the outset. Visits from British and
:08:03. > :08:07.French military chiefs, led to a joint mission being established.
:08:07. > :08:11.Special forces from all three countries would be sent to Libya,
:08:11. > :08:19.to assist with training as well as co-ordinating their command, and
:08:19. > :08:25.NATO air strikes. The French would go to the west, the British to the
:08:25. > :08:31.east. By August 20 men from D- squadron were rating in small teams
:08:31. > :08:34.in places like Breg a and Misrata, as well as training base in
:08:34. > :08:41.southern Libya. The air strikes had gone on for months, many had
:08:41. > :08:47.predicted doing it from the skies alone might not work. It has become
:08:47. > :08:55.a much more difficult fight, much more difficult targets. As I have
:08:55. > :09:02.observed in recent days, essentially it is very much
:09:02. > :09:09.stalemate-like in the vicinity of Brega. Within days of the new teams
:09:09. > :09:12.moving into action, the NTC was fighting its way into Tripoli,
:09:13. > :09:15.assistance from Qatar and France seems to have been particularly
:09:15. > :09:22.important here. But the Misrata units being helped by the British,
:09:22. > :09:25.were soon forcing their way into Gaddafi's home town of Sirte. At
:09:26. > :09:29.this point the British would not give weapons, but it did help the
:09:29. > :09:33.Libyans with radios and other equipment to co-ordinate air
:09:33. > :09:38.strikes. France and Qatar did send weapons, including, we have been
:09:38. > :09:42.told, Milan anti-tank missiles like these. As the revolutionaries
:09:43. > :09:46.fought into Sirte, NATO air strikes were pivitol, they were co-
:09:46. > :09:50.ordinated by the British, including men on the ground. Were they
:09:50. > :09:57.involved in the final drama as Muammar Gaddafi was taken and then
:09:57. > :10:01.killed by the NTC? That's a subject that everyone
:10:01. > :10:05.remains tight-lipped about. Though they do say that within weeks of
:10:05. > :10:12.Gaddafi's death, the special forces' presence was being wound
:10:12. > :10:16.down. The architects of the joint UK-French-Qatar operation insist it
:10:16. > :10:21.graves coherence, organisation and drive to the revolutionary ground
:10:21. > :10:25.forces. Integrating the Qataris and Jordanians in the operation was
:10:25. > :10:29.also vital. Without them and their defence chiefs' leadership,
:10:29. > :10:35.especially the huge understanding they brought to the campaign, it is
:10:35. > :10:39.unlikely that the NTC's militias could have successfully acted as
:10:39. > :10:43.the land element, without which the right outcome would have been
:10:43. > :10:48.possible. The role of special fores and MI6 in this process is still
:10:48. > :10:56.not publicly -- forces and MI6 in the process is still not public
:10:56. > :11:00.knowledge. It extended the British involvement in the Libyan struggle,
:11:00. > :11:03.to a greater degree than Government statements had suggested. In a
:11:04. > :11:07.moment two people who spent some time in the Newsnight studio during
:11:07. > :11:16.the Libyan war and in Libya during and after, the Conservative MP,
:11:16. > :11:20.Rory Stewart and the writer and journalist, Nabila Ramdani. First,
:11:20. > :11:25.Mark Urban is here, this is significantly different from what
:11:25. > :11:29.we were told? William Hague was talking in the conflict about the
:11:29. > :11:33.UK's desire to stay within the terms of res Luis. This is
:11:33. > :11:36.something that exercise -- resolution. This is something that
:11:36. > :11:39.exercised Whitehall for months. Lawyers from various departments
:11:39. > :11:45.were sceptical it could be done. Eventually it was done. Finally the
:11:45. > :11:48.troops that went in, the two dozen from the SAS from August on wards
:11:48. > :11:53.were armed. Where as the earlier missions the mentoring, consultants,
:11:53. > :11:57.went in plain clothes, unarmed. significant a contribution was it?
:11:57. > :12:02.Well, it is easy to argue this both ways. A lot of people would say
:12:02. > :12:06.that even after the fall of Tripoli, and even Sirte, that those gangs of
:12:06. > :12:11.men in their pick-up trucks and heavy machine guns and the rest of
:12:11. > :12:14.it, were a wild, unco-ordinated and indisciplined lot. However, they
:12:14. > :12:18.had achieved their objective, it was important, I think, for the
:12:18. > :12:23.countries that backed them, that, if you like, they wanted to bank
:12:23. > :12:27.some of the political influence that came from helping them achieve
:12:28. > :12:32.their objective, the qar tar defence force chief claimed --
:12:32. > :12:39.quart tar defence force chief claims hundreds of Qataris were
:12:39. > :12:45.involved. The French want it known that they armed. The British hoped
:12:45. > :12:50.by being involved in that way they would buy influence in that new
:12:50. > :12:54.Libya. Do you think they want it made public? I can't say that is
:12:54. > :12:58.what the Government wants. Rory Stewart and Nabila Ramdani, to what
:12:58. > :13:02.extent do you think the revolution is tainted by this sort of
:13:02. > :13:06.discovery? It is absolutely tainted by this sort of discovery. I think
:13:06. > :13:10.Mark's report is fascinating, but sadly, not in the least bit
:13:10. > :13:14.surprising. What the discussion should be all about is not so much
:13:14. > :13:18.military intervention, but illegal military intervention. The use of
:13:18. > :13:22.British special forces in Libya shows that the British completely
:13:22. > :13:26.ignored the United Nations resolution 1973. In many ways. Not
:13:26. > :13:31.just by sending special forces on the ground. But the resolution was
:13:31. > :13:37.breached by sending arms to the rebels, by training them, by
:13:37. > :13:40.equipping them with communications, and crucially, the breach of 1973
:13:41. > :13:44.also resulted in Libyans dying on a daily basis.
:13:44. > :13:47.Rory Stewart, do you think there was a breach of the UN resolution
:13:47. > :13:50.in this? I don't believe it is a breach of the resolution. The
:13:50. > :13:55.resolution is about occupation forces on the ground, not small
:13:55. > :14:01.covert operations. It says no force of occupation? I disagree. What
:14:01. > :14:05.1973 absolutely does not authorise is elite foreign troops from a
:14:05. > :14:08.western democracy, interfering in the internal affairs of an
:14:08. > :14:14.sovereign Arab country. Let's not forget that. Remember that
:14:14. > :14:18.thousands of people died in Libya in spite of western intervention.
:14:18. > :14:23.So the Libyan conflict was all about ousting an Arab regime which
:14:23. > :14:27.had fallen out with the west, just a few years after dealing with the
:14:27. > :14:32.west over everything from oil. don't think he was a tyrant?
:14:32. > :14:36.course he was a tyrant. Fine. it is not up to elite troops from a
:14:36. > :14:42.western democracy to oust him. you were in favour of the air
:14:42. > :14:45.campaign? I was in favour of military intervention, when it was
:14:45. > :14:51.abundantly clear Gaddafi was threatening a bloodbath in Benghazi.
:14:51. > :14:55.What I was disagreeing with was the form and shape of the military
:14:55. > :15:00.intervention. I'm all for legal intervention, when it is fair and
:15:00. > :15:03.transparent, but illegal intervention is something that is
:15:03. > :15:07.morally wrong. I think the other thing, to put it in proportion,
:15:07. > :15:10.this is a very small intervention, you are talking about 20 people.
:15:10. > :15:15.doesn't matter how small, we were misled about it. Public claims were
:15:15. > :15:19.made that there were not British soldiers there, and there were?
:15:19. > :15:23.Foreign Secretary is very clear, he said when boots on the ground are
:15:23. > :15:26.talked about,'s talking about large forces. Britain has intelligence
:15:26. > :15:32.agencies, we have special forces, we did, as we know, in Afghanistan,
:15:32. > :15:37.and on a small scale in Lybia, and in a very cautious way. Unarmed
:15:37. > :15:40.initially, very few people, no arming of the rebels. That is
:15:40. > :15:44.perfectly within the resolution. arming of the rebels. The British
:15:44. > :15:48.didn't. That was left to the French and Qataris. They were part of the
:15:48. > :15:52.NATO coalition, they are responsible. We are not responsible
:15:52. > :15:57.for France. For breaches of a fundamental UN revolution. We are
:15:57. > :16:01.not responsible for France or Qatar. You are, I think UN resolutions are
:16:01. > :16:05.designed for a specific purpose, to intervene when there is a specific
:16:05. > :16:09.threat in real time. That was the case in Benghazi. What it doesn't
:16:09. > :16:16.authorise is to settle scores with an Arab tyrant which had fallen out
:16:16. > :16:22.with the west. What is all this talk about settling scores? Let me
:16:22. > :16:26.be clear, Britain was, one day Britain was serving Gaddafi's
:16:26. > :16:30.enemies on a plate for torture, and the case of Belhadj. We will talk
:16:30. > :16:35.about that in a moment or two, we will be talking to him. But
:16:35. > :16:40.settling of scores, you said? saying one day Britain was serving
:16:40. > :16:45.Gaddafi's enemies on a plate to him for torture, and the next day it is
:16:45. > :16:47.using its finest elite troops to support them and lead them to
:16:47. > :16:54.victory. Do you agree it did at least change
:16:54. > :16:57.the nature of the conflict. Clearly, once embarked upon, it was
:16:57. > :17:01.unconceivable that Britain, France and those who supported them would
:17:01. > :17:06.allow it to have anything other than the outcome they sought?
:17:06. > :17:09.it is very important to see the context there. Bribe should be
:17:10. > :17:13.congratulated for showing restraint, not arming the rebels, not going
:17:13. > :17:17.beyond of the terms of the resolution, it is hard to do. It
:17:17. > :17:19.was successful because we didn't get carried away. One of the ways I
:17:19. > :17:25.question Mark's report, there is suggestions that the military felt
:17:25. > :17:30.their hands were tied too much. In this case it is correct to tie the
:17:30. > :17:35.military's hands. Vietnam started with a few advisers, and ended up
:17:35. > :17:41.with 500 though troops -- 500,000 troops, it was right we restrained
:17:41. > :17:45.it. Any support would have been fine provided it wasn't too overt
:17:45. > :17:49.or expensive? It is fine if it is within the terms of the resolution,
:17:49. > :17:56.not committing atrocities, and in the end we have the Libyan support,
:17:56. > :17:59.we got the balance right. Doesn't transparency matter? Enormously,
:17:59. > :18:03.but I also think a nation should have a Secret Service, special
:18:03. > :18:07.fores and isn't obliged to reveal on television everything it is
:18:07. > :18:10.doing all the time. I don't think Britain would benefit from doing
:18:10. > :18:15.that. Let me ask you this, do you think the outcome in the end
:18:15. > :18:19.justified the means? Not at all. It is far too simplistic. You would
:18:19. > :18:23.rather Gaddafi were there? Not at all, it was very important to
:18:23. > :18:27.intervene militarily, to stop the fear of a bloodbath in Benghazi.
:18:27. > :18:31.Once it was achieved, it was morally wrong to take sides in a
:18:31. > :18:36.civil war, to lead a faction of the Libyan population to victory.
:18:36. > :18:40.take up that point you raised a moment or two ago. The inquiry,
:18:40. > :18:44.supposed to discover whether people working for the British Government,
:18:44. > :18:47.might have colluded in torture might have been abandoned, or the
:18:47. > :18:51.judge supposed to be carrying it out put it, it is not practical for
:18:51. > :18:54.the inquiry to continue right now. The lawyers and civil liberties
:18:55. > :18:58.activists representing the alleged victims are delighted, they said
:18:58. > :19:02.the inquiry was inadequate from the start. The police investigations,
:19:02. > :19:07.meanwhile, are continuing, into two cases, including that of Abdel
:19:07. > :19:11.Hakim Belhadj. The Libyan commander who took Tripoli, but who spent six
:19:11. > :19:15.years in Colonel Gaddafi's prisons, after, he claims, the British
:19:15. > :19:22.helped capture him. Earlier I spoke to him in Tripoli and started by
:19:22. > :19:26.asking him what he would like the British Government to do now.
:19:26. > :19:32.TRANSLATION: First of all, we wanted the British Government to
:19:32. > :19:38.apologise for what it did against us. And for the injustice against
:19:38. > :19:46.us, and the mistakes made against us. Especially from the British
:19:46. > :19:52.Intelligence Services. To apologise for the hidious crimes committed
:19:52. > :19:59.against us. And now the case is taking its course, and we would
:19:59. > :20:03.like those behind this crime to be brought to justice and put on trial.
:20:03. > :20:10.Can you be certain that the British people you saw when you were in
:20:10. > :20:15.prison, knew you were being tortured? TRANSLATION: The document
:20:15. > :20:23.found at the Intelligence Service headquarters clearly points to the
:20:23. > :20:27.implications of the British Intelligence Services. Those were
:20:27. > :20:32.unjust people, they didn't respect human rights. What has been
:20:32. > :20:41.revealed, and the documents clearly indicate the impli cakess of those
:20:41. > :20:47.people. It exposes their actions, the crimes against myself and my
:20:47. > :20:57.family. When you were being held in Libya under Colonel Gaddafi, did
:20:57. > :20:57.
:20:57. > :21:01.any British people come to see you? TRANSLATION: It was a year-and-a-
:21:01. > :21:06.half before I saw someone. people who came to see you, men or
:21:06. > :21:16.women, what age were they? TRANSLATION: As far as I can
:21:16. > :21:16.
:21:16. > :21:20.remember the team was led by a lady. She was accompanied by a man in his
:21:20. > :21:29.50s. The two members from the British Intelligence Services came
:21:29. > :21:36.to see me. Did you tell them you were being tortured? The room was
:21:36. > :21:39.monitored, they eves dropped on our conversation. However, I gave them
:21:39. > :21:49.the message that I was being tortured. They understood the
:21:49. > :21:55.message. I clearly understood the message I was trying to give to
:21:55. > :22:05.them. I was mistreated, I was psychalogically tortured. They gave
:22:05. > :22:12.me signs that they goat the message. Were you physically tortured?
:22:12. > :22:17.I was held was not fit for a human being. It was a sell, I was
:22:17. > :22:22.deprived of daylight for a year- and-a-half. I couldn't see the sun.
:22:22. > :22:28.I couldn't bathe. I couldn't have a shower. That carried on for over
:22:28. > :22:32.two years, for two whole years. My wife was ill-streeted as well.
:22:32. > :22:37.She's still suffering -- ill- treated as well, she's still
:22:37. > :22:40.suffering psychological problems. Unfortunately the Libyan and
:22:40. > :22:44.British Intelligence Services contributed towards this. Have the
:22:44. > :22:53.British police been to talk to you in Libya since your country was
:22:53. > :22:56.liberated? TRANSLATION: No, I have not met any British, any British
:22:56. > :23:01.police personnel. Would you be willing to come to the UK to give
:23:01. > :23:07.evidence? This matter is in the hands of my legal team, we are
:23:07. > :23:11.discussing it, with regard to the location. I'm leaving this in the
:23:11. > :23:18.hands of my legal team. After what happened to you, how do you feel
:23:18. > :23:23.about Britain? First of all, regarding the British people, I hab
:23:23. > :23:27.bour no ill feeling towards these people -- harbour no ill feeling
:23:27. > :23:33.towards these people. Because relations between the people last.
:23:33. > :23:38.I harbour ill feeling towards those implicated in my ill treatment, in
:23:38. > :23:43.my suffering, in my operation. Those who contributed towards this
:23:43. > :23:49.act, years of suffering and the treatment of my wife that was
:23:49. > :23:52.pregnant at the time. Those people who harmed me also harmed their
:23:52. > :23:57.people. I hope that relations between our two countries will
:23:57. > :24:03.improve, will be consolidated and will be based on mutual interest
:24:03. > :24:13.and mutual trust. I harbour no hatred and all I hope for is that
:24:13. > :24:16.
:24:16. > :24:20.justice will take its course and the law will prevail. Mark Rory
:24:20. > :24:24.Stewart and Nabila Ramdani are still with us. These are murky
:24:24. > :24:29.waters? They are, the case underlines the danger to Britain to
:24:29. > :24:39.its reputation international, to its Secret Services, all of rest of
:24:39. > :24:39.
:24:39. > :24:44.it. Of these extraordinary changes, these advertise of - the forces
:24:44. > :24:49.were -- after 9/11 they became enemies, according to his
:24:49. > :24:54.allegations the UK helped Gaddafi get his hands on Mr Belhadj. Now we
:24:54. > :25:00.find the situation...Even According to documents unearthed in Libya.
:25:00. > :25:03.The British said as much? They aimed to cliem claim credit for
:25:03. > :25:07.doing so. Now we have another situation, that is a danger with
:25:07. > :25:11.backing the NTC, in way we have. If there is a further change in
:25:11. > :25:16.direction, or the country descends into lawlessness, once again, the
:25:16. > :25:24.UK could be held responsible for that. How embarrassing do you think
:25:24. > :25:28.the revelations are? Hugely, it brings into sharp focus the extra
:25:28. > :25:33.ordinary hypocritical and ambiguous Britain had with libia. Meanwhile
:25:33. > :25:38.the intervention in Libya was wrapped in positive PR, we were
:25:38. > :25:43.sold the military intervention as if they were offering humanitarian
:25:43. > :25:46.reasons, and for the promotion of human rights. That is very cynical.
:25:46. > :25:51.You wouldn't dissent from the fact it is highly embarrassing, would
:25:51. > :25:55.you? If these allegations are true it is worse than that. It is
:25:55. > :26:03.disgraceful. It illustrate that is our whole policy was short-term,
:26:03. > :26:08.chaotic, ethically questionable, over a period of nearly 20 years.
:26:08. > :26:11.Earlier you were saying it is right every nation has Secret Service and
:26:11. > :26:16.special forces and everything not disclosed on television, this is
:26:16. > :26:19.what happens? If you have a Secret Service, you have to watch them
:26:19. > :26:23.very carefully, and special forces, it is not a license to do whatever
:26:23. > :26:30.you want. The ethical rules need to be clear. Why are you shake your
:26:30. > :26:36.head? I want to pick up on an important point by Mark, if a
:26:37. > :26:43.western approved democracy doesn't take off in Libya, by which I mean
:26:43. > :26:46.giant corporations ex exploiting oil and gas to vast profits, I'm
:26:46. > :26:50.sure covert operations will continue in Libya, and western
:26:50. > :26:53.Governments will select another Government. They seem happy with
:26:53. > :26:56.the National Transitional Council, as we saw with Gaddafi
:26:56. > :27:00.relationships can change very quickly indeed. You are shaking
:27:00. > :27:04.your head? I disagree with it. We are not involved in some grand oil
:27:04. > :27:09.and gas conspiracy. The problem with British policy over the years
:27:09. > :27:12.it has been short-term, and crossing ethical lines. It is not a
:27:12. > :27:16.grand global conspiracy. We have heard the Trade Secretary saying to
:27:16. > :27:23.British businessmen specifically, pack your suitcases, we have heard
:27:23. > :27:27.the same from the French Foreign Minister. The NTC made it
:27:27. > :27:30.abundantly clear it was willing to reward the western Governments
:27:30. > :27:36.involved in the conflict. The oil and gas argument is perfectly
:27:36. > :27:40.viable. Supposing things don't work out
:27:40. > :27:43.with the NTC for whatever reason, then it would be absolutely right
:27:43. > :27:48.would, it not, according to your analysis, that this country pursues
:27:48. > :27:53.its own vital interests? I think we have vital interests. We have also
:27:53. > :27:57.to respect international law and not go around torturing people.
:27:57. > :28:00.That is a sensible conclusion. Thank you very much.
:28:00. > :28:03.British tax-payers will not be spending large amounts of money
:28:03. > :28:08.keeping the euro afloat, we know this because the Government has
:28:08. > :28:13.told us so. Yet today it emerged that the
:28:13. > :28:16.International Monetary Fund is scrabling around to find another
:28:16. > :28:22.$600 billion or so. Britain will be asked for a health kwhree whack of
:28:22. > :28:28.it. This will not be -- healthy whack of it, this will not be for
:28:28. > :28:32.anything as pretentious as propping up the euro. Paul Mason asked the
:28:32. > :28:37.Italian Prime Minister. The Italians seem amused to have in
:28:37. > :28:41.charge of your country, who is seen everywhere else, as a buffoon,
:28:41. > :28:44.explain to our tax-payers why we should pay a single penny to clear
:28:44. > :28:54.up the mess, left by Silvio Berlusconi. To my knowledge, my
:28:54. > :29:01.country has not cost a penny to the UK so far. Nor visa versa as I'm
:29:01. > :29:07.aware of. At least in the present historical phase. I believe both
:29:07. > :29:12.Italy and the UK are huge beneficiaries from the single
:29:12. > :29:21.market and European integration. You make some personal observations
:29:21. > :29:27.that I respect. That was about a recent Italian Prime Minister. I,
:29:27. > :29:32.however, fail to see the connection between your characterisation of
:29:32. > :29:39.his personality, and the international burden for the UK
:29:39. > :29:42.tax-payers. Paul Mason is here. How much are we on the hook for? Today,
:29:42. > :29:47.the IMF has come to the international community and said we
:29:47. > :29:51.want to more than double our lending power to a trillion dollars.
:29:51. > :29:57.That means it needs another $600 billion. That is huge. And most of
:29:57. > :30:04.it, or a lot of it, will be earmarked to save Mr De Montfort's
:30:04. > :30:13.country, Italy and also -- Mr Mario Monti's country, Italy and also
:30:13. > :30:17.Spain. We will be on the hook for $ 150 billion We're being warned
:30:17. > :30:22.there is negative growth figures for the lest of this year. Last
:30:22. > :30:25.time they tried to get an IMF increase through parliament was bad
:30:25. > :30:29.news, they had a rebellion. It would be quite difficult for them
:30:29. > :30:33.to do it this time. The Americans are saying they are not
:30:33. > :30:34.participating and giving anything to the IMF, as a result of today's
:30:34. > :30:38.call. The Greeks say they are on the
:30:38. > :30:43.verge of writing off their debt? Rembering the middle of last year
:30:43. > :30:47.and standing amid all the teargas. One was being phoned up by people
:30:47. > :30:52.in the European Union saying if Greece writes off its debt, partial
:30:52. > :30:56.default, it will be a Lehman-style moment. Six to nine months, we have
:30:56. > :31:01.got to a position where there is enough resilience to try it out N
:31:01. > :31:05.the 48 hours we will see a -- in the next 48 hours we will see a
:31:05. > :31:11.deal. If we get to Friday and it has happened, and the French
:31:11. > :31:14.banking system hasn't gone up in smoke, and a huge credit event
:31:14. > :31:18.triggering all kinds of activities in the insurance markets, that will
:31:18. > :31:22.be a good thing. It has been the thing that we have been fearing for
:31:22. > :31:28.the best part of six months, we are on the eve of it. That is another
:31:28. > :31:33.part of it. The step towards resolution for the eurocrisis.
:31:33. > :31:38.won't be good news if you have Greek debt? It is going to be
:31:38. > :31:42.halved, that is what they are haggling about. The market is
:31:42. > :31:48.acause tomorrowing itself to that happen. Most Greek debt is held by
:31:48. > :31:54.Greeks and Greek banks. The hope and fear in Greece is it won't
:31:54. > :31:58.solve anything. It might solve the ticking timebomb we were told about
:31:58. > :32:02.last year. Someone is taking Boris Johnson seriously, according to
:32:02. > :32:07.London, he's seriously interested in the scheme he has been
:32:07. > :32:13.supporting, for a massive new airport in Kent. He hopes to say
:32:13. > :32:16.like Christopher Wren of St Paul's, "if you want my memorial, look
:32:16. > :32:22.about you". This being Britain nothing will happen imminently.
:32:22. > :32:26.There is a better than even chance, if it will happen at all.
:32:26. > :32:31.1234 He started slow and small with the Boris bike, not a bit bigger
:32:31. > :32:38.and quicker with the Boris bus. But now the Mayor of London wants to go
:32:38. > :32:42.global and at jet speed. A new airport in the Thames Estuary. It
:32:42. > :32:47.is not here yet, but this is propossessioned site of Boris
:32:47. > :32:51.Island. That is the -- proposed site of Boris Island. That is the
:32:51. > :32:56.Medway there, the proposed island in Kent. First things first, don't
:32:56. > :33:01.call it an island. Don't take my word for it, here is the mayor's
:33:01. > :33:04.description of his shining vision. I'm more of a peninsula. This is
:33:04. > :33:10.what it could look like, 150 million passengers a year.
:33:10. > :33:14.According to the aviation industry, we do need to think big, if we want
:33:14. > :33:19.to attract flyers from new emerging markets, like China and Brazil?
:33:19. > :33:22.Heathrow is at 99%, Gatwick is a similar figure. If you look at
:33:22. > :33:28.Amsterdam or Frankfurt or Paris, they have four runways, Amsterdam
:33:28. > :33:33.has six. Those airports with four runways, run at 5% capacity. That
:33:33. > :33:39.means when there is -- 75% capacity, that means when there is disruption
:33:39. > :33:42.the whole system doesn't collapse. There is catch-up. You can't have
:33:42. > :33:49.a% runway utilise laigs, that is why the hub is constrained.
:33:49. > :33:54.There is a few problems with the Thames Estuary, there is the wreck
:33:54. > :33:59.of the HSS Richard Montgomery, it sanction with tonnes of explosives
:33:59. > :34:08.on board. That would have to be moved, as, presumably will all the
:34:08. > :34:11.boards. According to the RS PCB, this is a wetland of rare birds.
:34:11. > :34:15.200,000 birds coming here to winter. Would you really want to be sitting
:34:15. > :34:18.on an aircraft, taking off at the end of the runway, where we are
:34:18. > :34:21.standing now, through thousands and thousands of birds, it is not safe.
:34:21. > :34:26.It is not in line with the Government saying it wants to be
:34:26. > :34:29.the greenest Government ever. development needs, it has always
:34:29. > :34:34.been a balance between development and conservation needs. Sometimes
:34:34. > :34:38.you have to pay a price. Why not here? Where do you draw the line.
:34:38. > :34:44.We have lost 50% of the wetlands in the wild in the last century. This
:34:44. > :34:50.is one of the last best pieces of wetland habitat in the country.
:34:50. > :34:53.some the most significant fact in this is 2012 is an election year in
:34:53. > :34:58.London. Boris Johnson wants to be elected mayor again. He knows the
:34:58. > :35:03.people out here, who would be affected by a new hub airport,
:35:03. > :35:07.don't vote in the elections. Over there there are millions of people
:35:07. > :35:12.in west London, affected by the noise of Heathrow, and worried
:35:12. > :35:17.about its expansion. Well they do vote. The trouble with Heathrow is
:35:17. > :35:21.it is a great airport, but you can't indefinitely keep expanding,
:35:21. > :35:28.it is in the wrong place. 25% of all people in Europe who suffer
:35:28. > :35:32.from aviation noise pollution, live around Heathrow. So if you are
:35:32. > :35:34.going to expand your capacity, and business is making that case very
:35:34. > :35:39.powerfully to Government. George Osborne is off in China, he
:35:39. > :35:42.understands very clearly the need to communicate with the big growth
:35:42. > :35:51.economies of Asia and Latin America. If you are going to do that, then
:35:51. > :35:54.you have to look elsewhere. Last month's Feltham and Heston by-
:35:54. > :36:04.election, right on Heathrow's doorstep, through up interesting
:36:04. > :36:09.
:36:10. > :36:14.results, which Boris can't fail to Conservative strategists think a
:36:14. > :36:20.policy of shifting the airport could be decisive.
:36:20. > :36:24.When do you expect it all to be under way? This does look a little
:36:24. > :36:27.bit more like electioneering, when you talk to the Lib Dems. Any
:36:27. > :36:33.announcement this side of the election would need their approval.
:36:33. > :36:37.This is Norman Baker, a Lib Dem and transport minister. See if you
:36:37. > :36:42.think Boris is going to win him over? We do not support the
:36:42. > :36:45.building of a new airport and will do our best to stop it. There may
:36:45. > :36:48.be powerful arguments in favour of a new airport, it is true the
:36:48. > :36:53.Government is about to hold a consultation on the UK's airport
:36:53. > :37:01.capacity, looking at all of the options. However, the flurry of
:37:02. > :37:05.interest today in Boris Island. More of a peninsula. Sorry, Boris
:37:05. > :37:11.Peninsula", seems to have more to do with the London election
:37:11. > :37:19.timetable than anything else. We are joined by the Lib Dem L Ron
:37:20. > :37:23.Hubbard, and Jon Moulton, a venture capitalist. Are we really deciding
:37:23. > :37:28.on an airport because Boris wants to be re-elected? Yes. That is not
:37:28. > :37:31.a good thing? No. There is an unequivocal case to be made for it,
:37:31. > :37:37.leaving aside to whether Boris Johnson is up for election? It is a
:37:37. > :37:40.pretty tough case to run easily. Other than a rather special
:37:40. > :37:45.circumstances that Boris is in. It is hard to see this being
:37:45. > :37:50.politically wise. There is an awful lot of opposition and very little
:37:50. > :37:55.for this idea. You are in favour of it? I'm not. I think there are
:37:55. > :38:03.better alternatives. The third runway at Heathrow is not good, but
:38:03. > :38:06.it is better. Linking up Gatwick and Heathrow has lots of problems.
:38:07. > :38:10.That is better than the idea. the Government says it won't do the
:38:10. > :38:14.third runway at Heathrow, what could they do? They could change
:38:14. > :38:18.their minds t has been done before. As long as you are part of the
:38:18. > :38:22.coalition l this happen? I don't think it will happen. -- Coalition,
:38:22. > :38:26.will this happen? I don't think it will happen. This is very much a
:38:26. > :38:31.Boris election gimmick. I have been talking to lots of Conservatives
:38:31. > :38:35.today, who think the idea is as daft as the rest of us. It is about
:38:35. > :38:39.Boris but the need for more airport capacity? If it was about, that you
:38:39. > :38:43.would see the department for transport being involved in this,
:38:43. > :38:47.having done some work. You are against it full stop, against the
:38:47. > :38:51.idea of any further airport capacity? I'm against expansion in
:38:51. > :38:59.the south-east of Britain, I don't think it makes a lot of sense, from
:38:59. > :39:03.an environmental perfective. basics are we are maxed out at
:39:03. > :39:10.Heathrow, unless we deprive the locals of sleep, which is pushing
:39:10. > :39:17.it a bit far. We are losing our strength as an international hub I
:39:17. > :39:21.think there is three destinations for Heathrow in China, there are 15
:39:21. > :39:26.in France. We are losing our share of flights because we don't have
:39:26. > :39:30.any xas fee at Heathrow. We need a -- capacity at Heathrow. We need a
:39:30. > :39:35.greater capacity at the hub airport. The only way to do it, extend
:39:35. > :39:39.Heathrow, quicker, painful for people in the airia. Link up
:39:39. > :39:45.Gatwick and Heathrow, that has spare capacity. That costs money,
:39:45. > :39:50.nothing like the amount of money that is needed to build the estuary
:39:50. > :39:53.airport. You think we need greater capacity? It would be good for the
:39:53. > :39:59.economy, and probably outweigh the significant downsides that come
:39:59. > :40:04.with it. Whiels you are in Government, however -- whiels you
:40:04. > :40:12.are in Government, however long it lasts, there will be no expansion
:40:12. > :40:18.of capacity? We will be clear, The coalition agreement is clear,
:40:18. > :40:23.welling not move away from that. John has an accurate decribing all
:40:23. > :40:26.the problems with possible solutions. In my view they outweigh
:40:26. > :40:30.the benefits. We have to reach climate change targets, that means
:40:30. > :40:35.not investing in damaging projects like these. The problem with you is,
:40:35. > :40:38.we can't believe a thing you say. This was in your manifesto, no
:40:38. > :40:42.third runway, and similar commitments, as was a commitment
:40:42. > :40:49.not to increase student fees? have been very clear that we will
:40:49. > :40:53.stick with it. This is one you will abide by? Speaking as someone who
:40:53. > :40:57.voted against fees. Bully for you, has Nick Clegg given you an
:40:57. > :41:01.assurance that he means what he says? The Department of Transport
:41:01. > :41:04.doesn't seem to be backing it. If you look at what they are saying.
:41:04. > :41:08.What do you care about what the department of transport thinks,
:41:08. > :41:13.isn't it matter of principle for you? In this case it seems the
:41:13. > :41:16.department for transport isn't supporting it, the local MPs aren't
:41:16. > :41:20.supporting it. John said there are very few people supporting it, we
:41:20. > :41:24.will stick to that. How worried are you about
:41:24. > :41:30.politicians not investing in infrastructure in this country?
:41:30. > :41:36.Quite serious. The cost of this airport, lowest amount in the press
:41:36. > :41:40.is �30 billion. Moraleity is probably nearer �80. The Government
:41:41. > :41:44.is planning to spend �8 billion on all the traffic infrastructure,
:41:44. > :41:48.that is the amount in the last budget. We need to spend more,
:41:48. > :41:54.improving our infrastructure is one thing that works for the future. We
:41:54. > :41:59.have to choose the right things, we have to do things that we can done
:41:59. > :42:05.fairly quickly Boris says this one six years, it is the same
:42:05. > :42:09.likelihood of me getting an her receiptry peerage. It is a 20-year
:42:09. > :42:16.project if it is a day. Is there something about the way we run
:42:16. > :42:19.these things, the way politicians look after their interest, that is
:42:19. > :42:28.integral to infrastructure planning? This is a 20-yor project
:42:28. > :42:34.and we have five year elections. If you are -- 20-year elections. --
:42:34. > :42:37.this is a 20-year project and we have five-year elections. Many of
:42:37. > :42:42.the other things they are suggesting is sensible, increasing
:42:42. > :42:46.the investment. Extra rail to link up ports properly, that would be
:42:46. > :42:49.good. That would be faster and cheaper than this. I think it would
:42:49. > :42:53.provide more benefit. The problem is the same, you guys are living
:42:53. > :42:57.from election to election, and these things take years and years
:42:57. > :43:01.to put in place? Indeed, that is something we have to resolve. The
:43:01. > :43:06.interaction of the media with politicians shortens the time scale
:43:06. > :43:10.with 24-hour cycles. The fact you guys haven't the guts to make a
:43:10. > :43:16.decision is some how the media's fault? We are increasing, for
:43:16. > :43:19.example, on rail investment, the Autumn Statement announced �1.4
:43:19. > :43:22.million in rail investment. That is more than the Victorian era.
:43:22. > :43:26.Politicians are beginning to take those decisions, we will continue
:43:26. > :43:31.to do so. I hope we will be able to have more.
:43:31. > :43:35.Has Nick Clegg given you an assurance? That there will be no
:43:35. > :43:38.expansion of airports in the south- east? That is the clear manifesto
:43:38. > :43:41.commitment, there is nothing to suggest anything else. There is
:43:41. > :43:47.further work. An air strategy coming out. I don't believe that
:43:47. > :43:52.will be an outcome in the south- east. Boris's antics today, with
:43:52. > :43:58.his flights of fancy, have made it harder for his case. There is a lot
:43:58. > :44:00.of issues about whatever we do. One of the problems building any of
:44:00. > :44:06.these enhanced capacity in the south-east, is it will further
:44:06. > :44:13.increase the regional divide. Lots of issues here, this idea is just
:44:13. > :44:23.being flouted for electoral purposes nothing else.
:44:23. > :44:56.
:44:56. > :45:01.Cynicism in one so young! The That's more than enough for now. I
:45:01. > :45:11.will be back tomorrow with among other things a discussion on
:45:11. > :45:32.
:45:32. > :45:36.whether maxim has anything to offer the world. Good night.
:45:36. > :45:39.Good evening, mild but cloudy across southern areas with
:45:40. > :45:44.outbreaks of rain. Further wet weather in the morning. Some
:45:44. > :45:50.sunshine for a time, a scattering of hours, becoming more frequent
:45:50. > :45:54.during the second half of the day. Wintry in the top, to the Fells,
:45:55. > :45:57.the Pennines, gusty winds attached, but dry and bright weather. For the
:45:57. > :46:02.Midlands, East Anglia and southern England. After the clouty and wet
:46:02. > :46:05.standard we have here, by the afternoon most will be dry. Sunny
:46:05. > :46:09.spells. The winds coming from west or north-westerly direction. It
:46:09. > :46:13.will be gradually bringing in colder air t won't feel as mild as
:46:13. > :46:17.it did in the morning. A few showers flowing into north and west
:46:17. > :46:22.Wales. Continuing to see hours on and off during the day. Brightness
:46:22. > :46:26.between, a little bit wintry on the tops of the hills. More significant
:46:26. > :46:31.amounts of snow for Scotland, higher and central ground of
:46:31. > :46:38.Scotland. Good covering in places, still some gaps in the snow showers,
:46:38. > :46:48.continuing into Thursday night. As you look on Friday to the northern
:46:48. > :46:50.