:00:08. > :00:11.The market is the best imaginable force for improving human wealth
:00:11. > :00:15.and happiness, according to our Prime Minister today. It just needs
:00:15. > :00:19.a little adjustment. And it's not just him, it is all the main party
:00:19. > :00:24.leaders. They don't buy it at the protest
:00:24. > :00:30.camp, but how has this mainstream consensus been built, and can it
:00:30. > :00:36.last? I have been speaking to the Marxist historian, Eric Hobsbawm.
:00:36. > :00:41.Capitalism developed a sort of pathological degeneration of the
:00:41. > :00:46.admit Smith's line, in which you believe that responsibility had
:00:46. > :00:51.absolutely nothing to do with it. The question for our guests: if
:00:51. > :00:53.capitalism is so broken, why is an alternative so very hard to
:00:53. > :00:56.imagine? The story of how the British
:00:56. > :00:59.Government betrayed this man when he tried to warn them that tax-
:00:59. > :01:02.payers' money was being given to companies accused of money
:01:02. > :01:05.laundering. I don't know how else to put it, at some point or the
:01:05. > :01:10.other I will have to pay the price for what I have done.
:01:10. > :01:13.What do you mean? Retribution. There will be some form of
:01:13. > :01:17.retribution. The Most Excellent Order of the
:01:17. > :01:24.British Empire, to receive the honour of Knighthood. Calls mount
:01:24. > :01:28.for the man who shredded the royal bank of Scotland to be striped of
:01:28. > :01:34.his Knighthood. Since when has incompetence within an offence, and
:01:34. > :01:38.since when could jailbirds keep their peerages.
:01:39. > :01:43.Both the Prime Minister and the leader of the opposition spent
:01:43. > :01:48.today arguing for a socially responsible version of capitalism.
:01:48. > :01:52.They follow ed the Deputy Prime Minister, who is a fan of what he
:01:52. > :01:57.calls a John Lewis-style of economy. The days of an ideolgical divide
:01:57. > :02:01.are gone. The de bait now is just how the market works. The voices
:02:01. > :02:11.saying that even if you put lipstick on a pig it is still a pig
:02:11. > :02:13.
:02:13. > :02:17.are muted or ignored. Our economics editor, Paul Mason, reports.
:02:17. > :02:20.Today, if we're frank, many people are questioning, not just how and
:02:20. > :02:26.when we will recover, but they are questioning the whole way in which
:02:26. > :02:30.our economy works. The Occupy protest at St Paul's may be facing
:02:30. > :02:35.its final days, but its legacy could be this, both Labour and the
:02:35. > :02:40.Conservatives vying with each other to verbally beat up capitalism.
:02:40. > :02:46.Yesterday, unemployment rose again, and across Europe...With
:02:46. > :02:49.speechwriter recruited from the Guardian, and an audience from the
:02:49. > :02:52.Co-op movement, Mr Cameron weighed in. No true Conservative has a
:02:52. > :02:56.niave belief that all politics and politicians have to do is just
:02:56. > :03:02.stand back and let capitalism rip. We know there is every difference
:03:02. > :03:08.in the world between a market that works and the one that does not.
:03:08. > :03:11.Markets can fail. Uncontrolled globalisation can slide into
:03:11. > :03:16.monopolisation, sweeping aside the small, the personal, the local. But
:03:16. > :03:21.we are the party that understands how to make capitalism work. Across
:03:21. > :03:24.London, it was the turn of Labour to wave the red flag against
:03:24. > :03:31.irresponsible capitalism. challenge to David Cameron is to be
:03:31. > :03:35.judged on his deeds not his words. So, if he's serious about tackling
:03:35. > :03:39.irresponsible capitalism, he needs to clampdown on the fact that train
:03:39. > :03:42.companies are ripping people off. If he's serious about tackling
:03:42. > :03:46.irresponsible capitalism, he needs to take action to break up the
:03:46. > :03:50.rigged energy market. If he's serious about irresponsible
:03:50. > :03:56.capitalism, he needs to take action to stop those exorbitant bank
:03:56. > :04:02.charges. That is the proof that he is really serious about this agenda.
:04:02. > :04:06.The drivers of discontent are clear, a million young people on the dole,
:04:06. > :04:10.wages stagnant, growth shuddering to a halt, millions shut out of the
:04:10. > :04:15.credit market. But what does all the rhetoric about capitalism
:04:15. > :04:20.really mean. If by capitalism we mean the concentration of wealth,
:04:20. > :04:25.power and influence, among a few rich people in place like the City
:04:25. > :04:28.of London, nobody in mainstream politics, in truth, intends to do
:04:28. > :04:38.much about that. One reason might be, the absence of alternatives
:04:38. > :04:46.
:04:46. > :04:51.Over the past 18 months, the UK Uncut movement, has pushed issues
:04:51. > :04:57.like corporate tax avoidance and inequality into the headlines. This
:04:57. > :05:02.woman, a veteran of those protests, at the age of 26, is notm prised
:05:02. > :05:07.with the concept of -- impressed with the concept of responsible
:05:07. > :05:12.capitalism. When politicians like David Cameron and Ed Milliband set
:05:12. > :05:18.up these strange die cots me of responsible and irresponsible
:05:18. > :05:23.capitalism I just don't believe it, there are systemic issues with
:05:23. > :05:27.capitalism. Your movement avoids the systemic issues, because there
:05:27. > :05:30.is no alternative coming out of your movement? It is not our
:05:30. > :05:33.responsibility to come up with the alternative. It is the
:05:33. > :05:38.responsibility of UK Uncut and Occupy, to put pressure on
:05:38. > :05:41.Governments to deliver fairer and more progressive and more people-
:05:41. > :05:45.centered society. The reason we elect politicians is so they can
:05:45. > :05:51.come up with cold, hard alternatives, of which there are
:05:51. > :05:56.many. But, among the high towers of high
:05:56. > :06:02.finance, not many people can see an alternative, even if they can see
:06:02. > :06:09.major flaws in the current system. At the Financial Times, they are
:06:09. > :06:13.running a debate entitled "Capitalism in crisis". For all the
:06:13. > :06:17.column pages filled, the solutions are remarkably thin.
:06:17. > :06:20.Can you see any alternative view, as in the 30s, when there is a big
:06:20. > :06:26.inflection point in economic thinking, is anything emerging?
:06:26. > :06:29.the moment the answer is no. There are two sorts of reasons for that.
:06:29. > :06:33.First Minister, there is no equivalent of communism, nobody
:06:33. > :06:37.believes in a fundamentally different system. We have to
:06:37. > :06:41.remember the 30s, many people z most intelligent people believed
:06:41. > :06:50.that there was that sort of alternative. We are not getting the
:06:50. > :06:56.sort of Keynsian revolution, even within mainstream politics, we are
:06:56. > :07:00.going back to Keynsian revolution. The most unconventional thinking is
:07:00. > :07:04.Keynsianism, that is an 80-year-old system. The answer is, no. We are
:07:04. > :07:08.seeing demonstrations on the scale of the 30s, and strikes and trouble.
:07:08. > :07:12.Could the ultimate strength of modern capitalism be, that even
:07:12. > :07:16.those on the streets can't imagine it ever ending. 20 or 30 years ago,
:07:16. > :07:21.a young activist on the left, like you, would have just said I'm a
:07:21. > :07:25.socialist, why is that so hard now? Well, I do consider myself a
:07:25. > :07:28.socialist, and sometimes I do baulk at saying it, because I think
:07:28. > :07:35.people of my age have been conditioned, I suppose, by things
:07:35. > :07:44.like the Cold War, and by Stalin to see socialism as this kind of
:07:44. > :07:48.monolithic state control over the very tiny minute new shy of your
:07:48. > :07:52.life. For me, publicly-owned services means everybody puts their
:07:52. > :07:54.money in the pot, so everybody has stake in the services and ensures
:07:54. > :07:58.the purpose of the services is to make sure everybody is cared for,
:07:58. > :08:03.and not to make profits for a few people at the top. Which is what is
:08:03. > :08:07.happening in a lot of industries at the moment.
:08:07. > :08:12.Capitalism, irresponsible or not, has become global, complex and
:08:12. > :08:15.high-tech. The actions of national Governments limited by financial
:08:15. > :08:23.reality, whatever their rhetoric implies. Even the rhetoric, these
:08:23. > :08:26.days, ain't what it used to be. At almost any point in the 20th
:08:26. > :08:30.century you could have found influential figures offering an
:08:30. > :08:33.alternative analysis to the idea now common place in all three
:08:33. > :08:38.political parties, that there is nothing intrinsically wrong with
:08:38. > :08:42.capitalism, it is just a matter of how it operates. According to
:08:42. > :08:47.Marxist interpretation, selfishness and inequality aren't an abhoration,
:08:47. > :08:54.but the natural product of capitalism.
:08:54. > :09:00.Marxists aren't quite on the endangered species yet, the oldman
:09:00. > :09:04.of Marxism, Eric Hobsbawm, published a book, How To Change The
:09:04. > :09:08.World, at the age of 94. I went to speak to him earlier.
:09:08. > :09:12.The Prime Minister was speaking today about responsible capitalism,
:09:12. > :09:18.do you think such a thing exists? As an economic system, capitalism
:09:18. > :09:24.has nothing to do with responsibility. It has to do with
:09:24. > :09:32.growth, with making profit. Over the last 40 years, it seems to me,
:09:32. > :09:36.capitalism developed a sort of pathological degeneration of the
:09:36. > :09:41.Adam Smith's line, in which you believe that responsibility had
:09:41. > :09:48.absolutely nothing to do with it, because all good results, such as
:09:48. > :09:53.they were, would arise from operations of the free market,
:09:53. > :09:59.provided the free market were left completely free. What's really
:09:59. > :10:06.talking about is just capitalism, isn't he. The idea that capitalism
:10:06. > :10:15.can exist, alongside some sort of social, moral system, in which
:10:15. > :10:21.there is a degree of equity? It can, if it is made to. By itself, there
:10:21. > :10:26.is nothing to make it function like that at all. Why is it, do you
:10:27. > :10:36.think, that when we see capitalism clearly in crisis, in the west now,
:10:36. > :10:42.why is it that no-one else is reaching for these Marxist utopian
:10:42. > :10:47.solutions? Marxism isn't a utopian solution. Marxism is a definition
:10:47. > :10:52.of problems, which we have to deal with, and with which capitalism
:10:52. > :10:58.cannot, at present deal. The major problem, at the moment, which is
:10:58. > :11:05.going to be very, very hard for anybody to deal with, is that what
:11:05. > :11:12.was the transformation of the world through capitalism, and high-
:11:12. > :11:19.technology, and enormous extraordinary advance, one element
:11:19. > :11:25.of production has become surplus to requirement. Namely people. If we
:11:25. > :11:34.go on developing, what happens to the people who previously managed
:11:34. > :11:38.to get in on the system, largely through getting jobs, getting good
:11:38. > :11:47.living jobs, bad living jobs, but jobs? We can see some of the
:11:47. > :11:50.problems right now in detrialised areas. What happens, particularly -
:11:50. > :11:53.- deindustrialised areas, what happens, in particular to the men,
:11:53. > :11:57.when there are no jobs. When you look at the riots last summer, do
:11:57. > :12:04.you think they have a political element to them? I think the riots
:12:04. > :12:08.were a reaction to a society of demoralised people, that doesn't
:12:08. > :12:11.know what happens. These particular riots weren't, I think,
:12:11. > :12:18.particularly political, and it would be a mistake to read that
:12:18. > :12:25.into it. But, the fact that a large number of people are demoralised
:12:25. > :12:30.because there is nothing for them to do, is more than the temporary
:12:30. > :12:35.phenomenon of unemployment. Once upon a time, 80% of the population
:12:35. > :12:42.in the world were farmers. And that's the only way we could get
:12:42. > :12:48.the food. Nowadays we can get all the food we want, with maybe 2% or
:12:48. > :12:54.less of people farming. Now this is happening with the other parts of
:12:54. > :13:01.production too. That's where the real danger lies. So what do you
:13:01. > :13:08.make of the Occupy movement? interesting thing is the response.
:13:08. > :13:13.The response both on the part of ordinary people, to see that this
:13:13. > :13:19.extraordinary inquay ee quality, social and economic -- inequality,
:13:19. > :13:23.social and economic inequality, is in some sense seen as a moral
:13:23. > :13:29.inequality in most cases, is intolerable. The idea that even
:13:30. > :13:36.among the capitalists, that this isn't what they were supposed to be
:13:36. > :13:42.producing. To that extent, the lack of self-confidence in capitalism at
:13:42. > :13:47.the moment is one element that we have to count into the crisis.
:13:47. > :13:52.You're just an old Marxist clutching at straws aren't you?
:13:52. > :13:58.not clutching any straws, because I'm pessimistic. I doubt whether,
:13:58. > :14:07.in fact, a solution will be found. Evently no doubt t will be. I
:14:07. > :14:14.suspect we are looking forward to a rather stormy period in the next
:14:14. > :14:20.20-30 years. Thank you very much. With us now are the Labour MP, and
:14:20. > :14:25.historian, Mr Hunt, Eamonn Fingleton from the times, and Julie
:14:25. > :14:29.Meyer, founder and CEO of the investment company.
:14:29. > :14:33.Why are all the party leaders talking suddenly about responsible
:14:33. > :14:35.capitalism? Because when there is so little growth people think about
:14:36. > :14:45.fairness. They think about weather what
:14:45. > :14:49.people are getting out is related to what is going in. It doesn't
:14:49. > :14:53.occur to them in the good times? is less of an issue. When
:14:53. > :14:57.capitalism is producing a lot, people are getting a lot out. They
:14:57. > :15:02.don't worry how other people are doing, if they are doing better
:15:02. > :15:07.than them. What do you make of the talk? When we are beginning to see
:15:07. > :15:10.the bonuses come out of the City, there is a very real sense of the
:15:10. > :15:13.inequality of the system. What is interesting, in a sense, this
:15:14. > :15:17.debate has only begun at such intensity now, when we have had the
:15:17. > :15:21.ramifications of it for the last three years. It is getting very
:15:21. > :15:26.interesting. It seems to me that the perameters of the debate are
:15:26. > :15:30.centre left and progressive. About how we remodel the neo-liberal
:15:30. > :15:34.capitalist model we have had for the last 30 years. For those of us
:15:34. > :15:39.on the left it is a very exciting time. Do you think there is a
:15:39. > :15:42.crisis in capitalism? I don't F we mean capitalism as a market economy,
:15:42. > :15:46.where profit is the motive, you have to drive things to
:15:46. > :15:49.profitability. You can't tax a loss, you tax a profit, in order to have
:15:49. > :15:56.money for public service, you have tob to have profitability as the
:15:56. > :16:00.goal. What we have seen over the past 30 years capital markets have
:16:00. > :16:04.lifted a million people out of poverty. They continue to do that.
:16:04. > :16:08.If you speak to people in their 20s they take it for grant in their
:16:08. > :16:11.lives that they have the freedom to engage in the market. We're the
:16:11. > :16:17.market. You can't say there is something wrong with the freedom to
:16:17. > :16:21.pursue your livelihood, every day. The capitalist model lefting people
:16:21. > :16:25.out of poverty in Brazil, in China, in India, is very different to what
:16:26. > :16:30.we have here in western Europe. The point about capitalism is it has
:16:30. > :16:35.these many manifestations, capitalism changes over time. The
:16:35. > :16:45.great achievement of Marx was to hissor size capitalism, and put it
:16:45. > :16:48.
:16:48. > :16:56.in -- historicalise capitalism and put it into history. The Soviet
:16:56. > :17:00.Union in the end. These are trivial and as if siel points about a
:17:00. > :17:04.historian's record that you -- facile points about a historian's
:17:04. > :17:07.record. It was true and that was the thrust of his career, and the
:17:07. > :17:12.Soviet Union ends up in a position where it couldn't print off the
:17:12. > :17:16.paper to write down the people it was executing. It was debating
:17:16. > :17:19.points about capitalism. It is about trying to identify the
:17:19. > :17:22.alternative, when you heard criticisms about capitalism, some
:17:22. > :17:26.of which are true, I didn't understand what Eric Hobsbawm's
:17:26. > :17:31.solution, when he did it was a catastrophic one. It is Germaine,
:17:31. > :17:36.you can't say capitalism is in crisis or has to be replaced, go
:17:36. > :17:40.and sit outside St Paul's, and ask what do you propose instead, say it
:17:40. > :17:45.is childish to ask. There are bad people in the world, we will never
:17:45. > :17:50.get rid of them. I personally think it is 5%, not 50% of the people. We
:17:50. > :17:54.live in a world where capitalism, market economy reflects human
:17:54. > :17:58.nature, we can't change that. We can only encourage positive
:17:58. > :18:01.behaviour. We will never, ever, in the history of the world, change
:18:01. > :18:06.the fact is there will be bad people who try to rip people off.
:18:06. > :18:11.When you talk about this being an exciting time to be on the left,
:18:11. > :18:15.there isn't any alternative that most of us can see being canvased
:18:15. > :18:20.anywhere? There is not an alternative in the sense of are we
:18:20. > :18:24.going back to the Marxist model of socialism of the 1850s, and the
:18:24. > :18:28.reason that is not going to happen is because we have lost faith.
:18:28. > :18:33.Socialism ultimately is an act of faith. Any place it was implemented
:18:33. > :18:36.it was an abject failure? models of socialism that were
:18:36. > :18:41.implemented were very different to Marxist thinking. The point of this
:18:41. > :18:45.is we were discussing earlier. me a favour. The interwar years. We
:18:45. > :18:51.were discussing in some of the contributions, the progressives of
:18:51. > :18:54.the 1890s and the 1900s, the way you tackle inheritance tax and
:18:54. > :18:59.inequality those are the centre left arguments. That is where David
:18:59. > :19:03.Cameron, the ultimate PR man who has very little structured beliefs
:19:04. > :19:08.can see where the debate is going, and wants to be there. The PR man
:19:08. > :19:11.doesn't sit with the childish sixth form debating point you made
:19:11. > :19:14.earlier. You are misunderstanding what people think about fairness.
:19:14. > :19:19.They think of fairness as putting something in and getting something
:19:19. > :19:22.out. A fair exchange, no robbery, the market accords well with the
:19:22. > :19:28.idea of that fairness. When the markets fail, as they have done,
:19:28. > :19:32.and where they see people taking out outsize rewards not related to
:19:32. > :19:35.their input, they begin to ask right questions, and they require
:19:35. > :19:39.reform. There has never been a socialist alternative to property
:19:39. > :19:43.rights and exchange. Nor has there been a socialist idea of fairness
:19:43. > :19:48.that challenges the idea that you put in and get out. That is why
:19:48. > :19:53.socialism intellectually has been a failure, not in the 1850s, but in
:19:53. > :20:00.the 1950s and the 1990s. This is a charicature of socialism, we had
:20:00. > :20:03.strong elements of socialism in the British society in the 1940s, 50,
:20:03. > :20:10.60s, some were strofpblgt the welfare state is an achievement of
:20:10. > :20:14.socialism. It is an achievement of Lloyd George, Churchill and
:20:14. > :20:19.Bevanage. It is a socialist achievement, most people would
:20:19. > :20:24.regard it as the same. This is fine territory to discuss it. We are
:20:24. > :20:27.seeing a failure of the City model of the last 15, 20 years, I
:20:27. > :20:30.represent Stoke-on-Trent, you go and see ministers today, and
:20:30. > :20:32.Treasury civil servants today, they are still in hock to the
:20:32. > :20:36.traditional City interests. There is no programme from this
:20:36. > :20:40.Government on manufacturing or industry. When people express
:20:40. > :20:45.objections to capitalism, it is always focused on people in the
:20:45. > :20:49.financial institutions, it is not focused on James Dyson or Richard
:20:49. > :20:52.Branson? It is true in this country our industrial policy is
:20:52. > :20:56.concentrated too much on the financial sector. The financial
:20:56. > :21:00.services sector should be a service sector to industry. It should back
:21:00. > :21:05.the industrialists of the day. For all of the people who want to get
:21:05. > :21:12.upset about the size of City bonuses. It should be noted you pay
:21:12. > :21:16.62% of that away. But the point is, really you have to be creating
:21:16. > :21:19.wealth, and all of society benefits from that. It is not about the
:21:19. > :21:23.bankers, it is about backing the industrialists. The point today
:21:23. > :21:26.about it being a moral mechanism too, do you believe it is a moral
:21:26. > :21:30.mechanism? Absolutely, I think it is the moral mechanism, to give me
:21:30. > :21:35.the freedom to choose to live my life the way I do. If I want to
:21:35. > :21:39.work 80 hours a week, choose my livelihood. What is more moral than
:21:39. > :21:42.to allow me to do. That what is not moral is if all of the people
:21:43. > :21:46.occupying St Paul's Cathedral, angry at the bankers' bonuses could
:21:46. > :21:50.see the wastage in Government. There is no evidence that
:21:51. > :21:55.Government is an efficient steward of our money. That is where they
:21:55. > :21:58.should turn their anger. efficiency a moral good in itself?
:21:58. > :22:03.If dupls down to my money and how the Government -- if it comes down
:22:03. > :22:09.to my money and how the Government spend it, it should be very moral.
:22:09. > :22:14.When it comes down to you and your friends undermining a great deal of
:22:15. > :22:19.the real economy with real jobs and mortgages and businesses who over.
:22:19. > :22:27.We drive money into the revenues of the financial coffers of this
:22:27. > :22:32.country. �4.8 -- 4.8 million SMEs, I'm an entrepeneur not banker.
:22:32. > :22:38.couldn't do it properly, we are all clearing up. This is why the state,
:22:38. > :22:42.Government had to step in. 6% of businesses create 50% of new jobs.
:22:42. > :22:49.You are talking about this moral point that David Cameron made, that
:22:49. > :22:54.the market in itself was a moral mechanism? It can be. In a sort of
:22:54. > :23:03.beautiful Adam Smithian world were the butcher, the baker and the
:23:03. > :23:07.candle stick maker are having a lovely relationship. The way to be
:23:07. > :23:13.moral is to regulate it. You have wicked and evil people. Without
:23:13. > :23:18.property rights and exchange people starve to date. -- death. You know,
:23:18. > :23:21.for my father, who came here from a Soviet prison camp, Brent Cross
:23:21. > :23:26.shopping centre is a moral institution. Being able to feed
:23:26. > :23:29.your family is a moral institution, so I just don't accept the argument
:23:29. > :23:34.that there is some socialist alternative to that. If you haven't
:23:34. > :23:37.got an alternative to that, we simply end up arguing about how to
:23:37. > :23:41.regulate capitalism, to ensure it acts in the interests of all. Of
:23:41. > :23:47.course there have been failings. But I still don't understand what
:23:48. > :23:51.your alternative is to either the elevated rhetoric level or the
:23:51. > :23:55.prosaic level to capitalism. fine with that debate, I do not
:23:55. > :24:01.believe, I lack faith, I can't move from the king dom of necessity to
:24:01. > :24:04.the king dom of freedom. I'm in favour of the market, it is how you
:24:04. > :24:11.regulate it. Can you trust this Government, Prime Minister, son of
:24:11. > :24:15.a stock broker. Come on, you speak as an MP of a party whose leader
:24:15. > :24:23.talked about a golden age of parliament. It funds the party, can
:24:23. > :24:29.you trust them to sort out this mess. You are quoting Eng les and
:24:29. > :24:33.Marx and attacking sons of stock brokers doesn't get you very far as
:24:33. > :24:36.a Labour Party. Certainly not with the young people. This country need
:24:36. > :24:40.to hear be jealous of people who work hard and make money. That is
:24:40. > :24:45.not what we need young people to hear. This is really about the size
:24:45. > :24:51.of the state, what we should try for an alternative, just for an
:24:51. > :24:58.experiment, try the Laufer Curve, people should pay a lot of tax. How
:24:58. > :25:05.do you increase tax, you drop the percentage, you optimise tax, not
:25:05. > :25:10.putting it up, you up it. It is a continuum. You pay 15% if you are
:25:10. > :25:16.very, very rich f you work and do the right thing you have to pay 25-
:25:16. > :25:20.30%. The problem is Art Laufer drew the graph on a napkirpbgs there was
:25:20. > :25:26.a reason, he hasn't data points, we don't know where we are on the
:25:26. > :25:30.curve. It is a continuum. We are talking mechanics here. Can
:25:30. > :25:37.you imagine, within any of your lifetimes, any of our lifetimes,
:25:37. > :25:41.some sort of alternative philosophy. You say it is a great time to be on
:25:41. > :25:45.the left. Is there going to be some sort of alternative, seriously
:25:45. > :25:49.canvased to a moderated market mechanism? What we have to do is
:25:49. > :25:53.move away from the traditional shareholder model. Nick Clegg's
:25:53. > :26:02.speech was very interesting, employee-ownership, John Lewis
:26:02. > :26:07.model, co-operate co-optives. I don't think the Conservative Party
:26:07. > :26:12.is anywhere near of it. It is the circle partnership, taking over
:26:12. > :26:15.failed NHS hospitals by giving employee ownership to circle
:26:15. > :26:18.partnership to revolutionise healthcare. He started with the
:26:18. > :26:22.principle that everybody has the right to great care. Those models
:26:22. > :26:25.are out there. Capitalism is changing as I call individual
:26:25. > :26:28.capitalism, it is not big business it is around the individual.
:26:28. > :26:32.have collapsed from the great rhetoric about capitalism a few
:26:32. > :26:35.minutes ago, into let's have some more mutuals and co-operatives,
:26:36. > :26:40.everyone is in favour of, that it is your imagination of the
:26:41. > :26:44.Conservative Party isn't. You can't imagine any kind of alternative
:26:44. > :26:54.philosophy? I'm still waiting. The attack on consumerism, which seems
:26:54. > :26:58.to me to look at the great history of pest lins and starvation and war.
:26:58. > :27:02.-- And shopping as the great social ill. That movement of consumerism
:27:02. > :27:05.has come up with no alternative to property rights, rule of law and
:27:05. > :27:09.fair exchange. What you are suggesting, all perfectly debatable,
:27:09. > :27:14.comes within that debate, but they are not an alternative.
:27:14. > :27:18.The secretary for international development has admitted to
:27:18. > :27:21.Newsnight that his department betrayed the name of an anti-
:27:21. > :27:26.corruption whistle-blower. The information was passed on to a
:27:26. > :27:35.private equity firm he had accused of investing in corrupt company. It
:27:35. > :27:37.was said to be an inadvertant error, and issued an apology,-to-the man,
:27:37. > :27:47.who was investigated by private investigators and his children
:27:47. > :27:49.
:27:49. > :27:54.followed to school. Corruption is the curse of the
:27:54. > :27:58.developing world. In Nigeria corruption is seen as perpetuating
:27:58. > :28:01.poverty, violence and crime. Britain committed to help change
:28:01. > :28:06.things. This is what happened to man who warned the Government it
:28:06. > :28:14.may have been investing in corruption.
:28:14. > :28:18.Instead of investigating my report, the people who I accused, to place
:28:18. > :28:23.me on their investigation. The whole idea of protecting my
:28:23. > :28:27.confidentiality was thrown out of the window, right from the winning.
:28:27. > :28:32.Ology Oloko has just found out that every aspect of his own life, his
:28:32. > :28:34.birth in England, his education in businesses -- and businesses in
:28:34. > :28:39.Nigeria, has placed under investigation. He was secretly
:28:39. > :28:44.watched and photographed. That was just the start. They came to my
:28:44. > :28:47.house, take pictures of my family members, follow me to my children's
:28:47. > :28:52.school. What is that about? What do you think about following you to
:28:52. > :28:59.your children's school? I think I'm very, very upset about that, and
:28:59. > :29:02.very outraged about that. I cannot see the bearing, how that bears on
:29:03. > :29:07.my children. I can't see how any investigation into me, what has
:29:07. > :29:13.that got to do with my children, their school, their identity.
:29:13. > :29:17.had been worried that British tax- payers' money, intended to help
:29:17. > :29:24.Nigeria were he worked, was being invested in companies thought to be
:29:24. > :29:30.involved in money laundering. Three years ago, on a Christmas visit to
:29:30. > :29:34.Brighton, he took his concerns to a Government department, it was a
:29:34. > :29:40.brave step, according to his friend. It takes great courage to come
:29:40. > :29:44.forward and expose corruption in a country like Nigeria. The head of
:29:44. > :29:48.Nigeria's main investigative agency was forced into exile after being
:29:48. > :29:54.threatened with death, because he was probing corruption.
:29:55. > :29:59.So we're not talking about the cosy atmosphere of exposing something in
:29:59. > :30:02.Britain. We are talking about people putting their lives at risk.
:30:02. > :30:06.He knew this, and before presenting the dossier of allegations, he
:30:07. > :30:12.insisted they didn't pass on his identity. You have to understand, I
:30:12. > :30:19.knew I was putting myself at risk, and I made, I went to a lot of
:30:19. > :30:23.effort to try to protect my identity. To get assurances that my
:30:23. > :30:28.identity would be protected. Yet, it was leaked. At the root of what
:30:28. > :30:31.went wrong is the relationship between DFID, the department for
:30:31. > :30:39.aid, and its private enterprise arm, the Commonwealth Development
:30:39. > :30:42.Corporation, the CDC. Where DFID delivers aid for infrastructure,
:30:42. > :30:47.schools and hospitals, CDC puts money into private companies,
:30:47. > :30:54.aiming to build up a country's enterprise culture. In the past
:30:54. > :30:57.eight years CDC's assets have doubled to �2.7 billion T has
:30:57. > :31:01.achieved this financial success through private equity funds.
:31:01. > :31:06.Critics say that has meant big money for fund managers, but little
:31:06. > :31:10.for the intended beneficiaries, the world's poor. I think all of the
:31:10. > :31:16.evidence does suggest that CDC is not operating with anything like
:31:16. > :31:21.the proper oversight one would expect. It is, if you like, going
:31:21. > :31:28.rogue. Dotun Oloko was promised his identity would be kept secret, it
:31:28. > :31:34.wasn't, his dossier was handed by DFID, to the CDC, who handed it to
:31:34. > :31:39.the private equity firm whose investments he had questioned. Then
:31:39. > :31:43.capital partners, they boast of delivering returns to investors,
:31:43. > :31:49.including CDC, faced with the allegations, they told investors
:31:49. > :31:53.that he was mill illusionious and criminal, and they were --
:31:53. > :31:57.malicious, and criminal, they were hiring private investigators to
:31:57. > :32:03.uncover his motivations. The secret surveillance began, they captured
:32:03. > :32:07.him at his home, his children's school and church. In Nigeria they
:32:08. > :32:11.interviewed his school friends and colleagues. Everywhere Dotun Oloko
:32:11. > :32:16.was beyond reproach. There was no issues of reputational concern, he
:32:16. > :32:19.was described as a proud, principled, fun-loving and upright
:32:19. > :32:23.businessman. Meanwhile he himself was told by friends that questions
:32:23. > :32:28.were being asked. He suspected DFID, the development department, had
:32:28. > :32:32.leaked. But for over two years they denied it. The development
:32:32. > :32:37.secretary, Andrew Mitchell, told Dotun Oloko's MP, his allegations
:32:38. > :32:42.had been thoroughly investigated, concluding, that DFID had gone as
:32:42. > :32:46.far as it could. He hoped the extremely comprehensive response
:32:46. > :32:50.drew a line under the matter. has written me many letters where
:32:50. > :32:53.he has tried to draw a line under this, and saying he hoped it
:32:53. > :32:58.signals an end to the course pond dense. You say he should have known
:32:58. > :33:02.what was going on? He should have found out, and investigated it a
:33:02. > :33:07.lot more than he clearly did. Matters came to a head when Dotun
:33:07. > :33:11.Oloko was sent a copy of Control Risks's investigation report. Are
:33:11. > :33:15.you worried now? I was worried from the winning, now I'm even more
:33:15. > :33:18.worried and concerned. All my family members have now been
:33:18. > :33:23.dragged into it. This week, following Newsnight's inquiries,
:33:23. > :33:30.the development secretary changed his position. Offering an
:33:30. > :33:34.unreserved apology. He confirmed his department, DFID, had an
:33:34. > :33:38.advertantly passed on Oloko's original doss yes, unaware his name
:33:38. > :33:43.could be found in the electronic properties. He said there will be a
:33:44. > :33:50.full review of procedures. CDC say the same and apologise for the
:33:50. > :33:54.Harris rasment to him and his family. -- harassment to him and
:33:54. > :33:58.his family. They shudder raise the name, the first thing you do when
:33:58. > :34:02.you have a sensitive document. You don't send on original versions of
:34:02. > :34:07.sensitive documents. You should always get rid of the name. If you
:34:07. > :34:12.and I went to DFID, through a freedom of information request, and
:34:12. > :34:17.asked for e-mail correspondents, most of the names would be blacked
:34:17. > :34:22.out. They are well used to doing this. The question is, why, in this
:34:22. > :34:26.instance did they not go through that simple scrubbing procedure.
:34:26. > :34:31.When we were in Nigeria, just a few weeks ago, we found the kind of
:34:31. > :34:36.poverty the UK's aid is supposed to alleviate. What of that private
:34:36. > :34:40.equity firm, boatsing billions invested in nigh -- boasting
:34:40. > :34:48.billions invested into Nigeria, the people who set their investigators
:34:48. > :34:52.They needed to understand his underlying motivations, they said.
:34:52. > :34:56.In their words, they refute entirely his allegations about
:34:56. > :34:59.their investments. They add that while they know of no reason why Mr
:35:00. > :35:04.Oloko's life should be in danger, the company expresses its sincere
:35:04. > :35:09.concern for him, that he should feel that it is the case.
:35:09. > :35:13.I don't think DFID deserve to be called a development finance
:35:13. > :35:18.institution, or somebody that is helping the emerging countries.
:35:18. > :35:24.They are making the situation worse. Do you feel vulnerable? Very much
:35:24. > :35:31.so. I don't know how else to put it, at some point or the other I will
:35:31. > :35:35.have to pay the price for what I have done. What do you mean? Maybe
:35:35. > :35:39.some form of retribution. Dotun Oloko, the whistle-blower, whose
:35:39. > :35:44.cover was blown, says he's now fearful of going back to Nigeria.
:35:44. > :35:46.In his absence his businesses have collapsed, all he has left is his
:35:46. > :35:54.reputation. Established beyond doubt, by the private investigators
:35:54. > :35:59.who turned over his life. Poor Fred Goodwin, that is Fred
:35:59. > :36:05."The Shred", the man awarded a Knighthood from the last Government,
:36:05. > :36:11.pour services to banking, faces having -- for services to banking,
:36:11. > :36:15.faces having it taken away or not. The Prime Minister has left it in
:36:15. > :36:20.the hands of civil servants, many of whom might have a going in the
:36:20. > :36:24.great British Hon Norse' system. For critics the extravagant title
:36:24. > :36:29.says it all, the grand cross of the order of the bath, the Knight
:36:29. > :36:36.commander of the order of St Michael and St George. The most
:36:36. > :36:39.noble order of the gart ter. JG Ballard put it, a system of
:36:39. > :36:44.antiquated medal that is belong on a Christmas tree. Whether you agree
:36:44. > :36:47.with the assessment or not, the Knighthood awarded to the former
:36:47. > :36:52.RBS chief, Fred Goodwin, for services to banking, has done
:36:52. > :36:56.little for the system's credibility. Today David Cameron welcomed news
:36:56. > :37:03.that MPs will consider stripping Sir Fred of his Knighthood, though
:37:03. > :37:07.he passed the buck on who should do it. There is a committee in terms
:37:07. > :37:10.of honours that exists, and will examine this issue. Obviously it
:37:10. > :37:15.will want to take into account the Financial Services Authority report,
:37:15. > :37:19.which I think is material, and important. Because of what it says
:37:19. > :37:22.about the failures at RBS and what went wrong, and who was responsible
:37:22. > :37:27.and all the rest of it. There was a committee, they should do the work,
:37:27. > :37:35.rather than the Prime Minister. it may not be that simple. The for
:37:35. > :37:40.theure committee normally only considers -- for fitture committee
:37:40. > :37:50.normally -- foregeture committee normally only considers those who
:37:50. > :37:50.
:37:50. > :37:56.have been jailed. The boxer, Nasim Hamed, lost his
:37:56. > :37:59.MBE after a driving conviction. Yet Jeff free Archer is still in the
:37:59. > :38:03.House of Lords -- Jeffrey Archer is still in the House of Lords despite
:38:03. > :38:11.serving two years in jail for perjury. There have been many
:38:11. > :38:15.attempts to reform the honours over the years. Changing OBE from
:38:15. > :38:20."empire" to "excellence" is as far as it goes. And clarity on when
:38:21. > :38:23.somebody should be striped of an honour should have to wait too. We
:38:23. > :38:28.are joined from Cambridge by Matthew Hancock, who has called for
:38:28. > :38:34.Sir Fred to lose his Knighthood. Here in the studio is the poet,
:38:34. > :38:39.Benjamin Zephaniah, who publicly turned down an OBE in 2003.
:38:39. > :38:45.Mr Han, incompetence, it -- Mr Hancock, incompetence isn't a crime,
:38:45. > :38:48.why should he lose his Knighthood? Sir Fred Goodwin was guilty of more
:38:48. > :38:53.than incompetence, it was recklessness at the helm of an
:38:53. > :38:59.institution, whose failure not only damaged it, but the entire economy.
:39:00. > :39:05.Recklessness also isn't a crime, is it? No, but if there is something
:39:05. > :39:08.that somebody has done, who has been bestowed one of these great
:39:08. > :39:13.honours, that have huge respect across the country by most people.
:39:13. > :39:18.That brings into it, as you said, into the package, into disrepute,
:39:18. > :39:23.the whole system. Of course it should be revoked. This has been
:39:23. > :39:28.done. It is not quite true what was in the package. It has been done on
:39:28. > :39:35.a number of occasions, for people who haven't been convicted of
:39:35. > :39:39.things, but who have obviously been inappropriate holders of such
:39:39. > :39:44.honours. Anthony Blunt, for instance, he was never convicted of
:39:44. > :39:52.being a spy, when he admitted to it. It was clear he wasn't the sort of
:39:52. > :39:56.person. Andrew Blunt a spy spy, Jeffrey Archer went to prison and
:39:56. > :40:01.still a peer? Whether someone has to leave the House of Lords, that
:40:01. > :40:04.is a seat in parliament. It is an honour? MPs who go to prison for
:40:04. > :40:08.more than 12 months automatically get kicked out, maybe the Lords
:40:08. > :40:12.should look at a similar sort of system. That is a question of a
:40:12. > :40:17.seat in parliament, we are talking about honours? That is exactly it,
:40:17. > :40:21.we are talking about Hon Norse, and Hon Norse, for the -- honours, for
:40:21. > :40:25.the system to work, honours need to reflect that someone is of high
:40:25. > :40:31.standing, has done excellent work, and has put something into society.
:40:31. > :40:36.This last discussion that you just had with Danny Finkelstein and
:40:36. > :40:40.Hobsbawm and others, it was all about the fact that as well as
:40:40. > :40:45.making money there is more to life, there is duty. As a society we
:40:45. > :40:48.recognise that in this honours system. Benjamin Zephaniah what do
:40:48. > :40:52.you think about Fred Goodwin's Knighthood? It should be taken away.
:40:52. > :40:57.Why? I think the whole honours system should be scrapped. It is
:40:57. > :41:03.not just poor old Fred. He got a Knighthood for services to banking.
:41:03. > :41:07.So some people recognise that he was doing great services to banking,
:41:07. > :41:10.they were all wrong too. If Fred should be punished, the people that
:41:10. > :41:15.nominated him and gave him references are also wrong. There is
:41:15. > :41:21.not much more we can take away from Gordon Brown, having taken away the
:41:21. > :41:25.Prime Ministership? I neen the system is flawed and -- I think the
:41:25. > :41:30.system is flawed and it reeks of corruption. Corruption is a strong
:41:31. > :41:40.word to use, every society hasg ongs it gives to people, doesn't
:41:41. > :41:41.
:41:41. > :41:45.it? Yes it does. I rejected mine openly, I'm amazed at the amount of
:41:45. > :41:50.people who rejected their's quietly. There is lots of people in the
:41:50. > :41:55.country who don't give it the respect. Perhaps they are more
:41:55. > :42:01.discreet or better mannered than you? I'm being honest. I'm a poet,
:42:02. > :42:07.that throughout my life has been writing about slavery and empire
:42:07. > :42:15.and how empire impacted upon my people. It is a dam right cheek to
:42:15. > :42:19.have somebody then offer me a medal that is called "Order of the
:42:19. > :42:23.British empire". They have renamed it since, you were instrumental in
:42:24. > :42:29.getting it renamed, it is Order of the British excellence now?
:42:29. > :42:32.point is we have to acknowledge the great work people do in our country.
:42:32. > :42:37.Some fascinating people do really great things in our country. I
:42:37. > :42:40.think that the way we honour them should be divorced from state and
:42:40. > :42:45.monarchy. I have no problem with the monarchy or politician giving
:42:45. > :42:50.out an award, if they exist. But the award coming from the monarchy
:42:50. > :42:56.or state, that is where I have my problem. Mr Hancock, is there some
:42:56. > :43:04.other mechanism that could be devised, then, if Fred "The Shred"
:43:04. > :43:12.has made such a monkey out of it. Is there other mechanism -- #Isms
:43:12. > :43:16.there? I think there is, a group of -- mechanism there? I think there
:43:16. > :43:20.is. It is people like me and most in the country who think an
:43:20. > :43:24.honours' system to publicly thank people who have done good things
:43:24. > :43:29.for society, it is people like me who defend an honours system and
:43:29. > :43:32.promote it and think it is a good idea, who should also be keenest on
:43:32. > :43:40.taking away honours where they are obviously deeply inappropriate.
:43:40. > :43:46.That is why I think it is important that in the case of somebody like
:43:46. > :43:50.Fred Goodwin, who is a symbol of everything that went wrong in the
:43:50. > :43:56.financial crisis, that his should be taken away, because nobody likes
:43:56. > :44:00.the idea that he's still got a Knighthood, and there is lots of
:44:00. > :44:04.criticism that he was given one by the Labour Government. It is a
:44:04. > :44:09.classic political point that is made very often. It doesn't help
:44:10. > :44:15.the honours system, and other people, like certificate Henry
:44:15. > :44:21.Sasoon who just got an award. last word? I would like to ask you
:44:21. > :44:25.what you think of Jeffrey Archer's position, shouldn't he be derobeed?
:44:25. > :44:29.Because it's a seat in parliament, as well as. We're only talking
:44:29. > :44:34.about the title. The title goes with the seat in parliament. I said
:44:34. > :44:43.maybe that should be looked at it in the same way MPs get kicked out.
:44:43. > :44:51.We have to find a new modern way of biging up our people when they do
:44:51. > :44:55.great things. We have a great system. It turns the year 4 709,
:44:55. > :45:05.marking the Chinese new year, it is the Year of the Dragon w a series
:45:05. > :45:24.
:45:24. > :45:28.-- We hit the buffers on my Of the enormous number of things
:45:28. > :45:34.made in the workshop of the world, this relationship between
:45:34. > :45:41.Government and citizen is surely one of the very, very oddest.
:45:41. > :45:45.A communist regime that feeds its citizens by satisfying western
:45:45. > :45:52.consumerist capitalism. But maybe, if you have enough to eat, not
:45:52. > :45:57.having a vote doesn't really matter. That's it, we will be back tomorrow.
:45:57. > :46:03.The film pioneer, cod dak, the company that invent -- Kodak, the
:46:03. > :46:08.company that invented the hand held camera have applied to take shelter
:46:08. > :46:12.from bankruptcy. It may be that Kodak became associated with happy
:46:12. > :46:18.memories, it was a well liked brand. This is one of their first
:46:18. > :46:23.advertisments. Good night.
:46:23. > :46:28.# Where are you going # My little one
:46:28. > :46:33.# Little one # Where are you going
:46:33. > :46:42.# My baby # My own
:46:42. > :46:49.# Turn around # You are one