:12:15. > :12:18.think most people think it is right. job for a salary, as I do, you
:12:18. > :12:23.would have to do something exceptional for a bonus. The bonus
:12:23. > :12:26.structures are too complicated and big. Let's take a look at the long-
:12:26. > :12:30.term incentive bonus, that is �4 million apparently or possibly,
:12:30. > :12:34.should he get that? We don't know the details of that. I would say
:12:34. > :12:38.again, the board should exercise discretion and shareholders as well.
:12:38. > :12:42.You don't think there should be an incentive of any kind?
:12:42. > :12:45.incentive is to do a good job for the salary of more than a million.
:12:45. > :12:50.We don't know the detail of the bonus structure. What about the
:12:50. > :12:54.investment banking part of RBS who is entitled to another �4 million
:12:54. > :12:59.on top of his bonus, should he get it? It goes to a wider issue, about
:12:59. > :13:03.how banks are run. You know what the performance of the bank is?
:13:03. > :13:06.is not just banks that are majority held by tax-payers, it is other
:13:06. > :13:10.banks as well. We have heard from shareholders of Barclays that they
:13:10. > :13:18.are urging moderation as well. We need to see that moderation. This
:13:18. > :13:21.is the one you can hold forth on, you invented this system? When
:13:21. > :13:24.ordinary people are seeing no pay increases and people are losing
:13:24. > :13:27.their jobs. I don't think it is right you are getting the excessive
:13:27. > :13:30.bonuses, whether owned by the taxpayer or not. It is wrong
:13:30. > :13:35.everywhere? I think it is right that shareholders, whether it be
:13:35. > :13:39.the taxpayer, or whether it be the pension funds, urge moderation, and
:13:39. > :13:42.urge, not to go down this route of excessive bonus and pay. That was
:13:42. > :13:46.part of the reason that caused the financial crisis in the first place.
:13:46. > :13:51.We don't want to see that happening again. We need a fairer system, but
:13:51. > :13:55.also a system that doesn't build up the bubbles in the future. You say
:13:55. > :13:57.no rewards for achievement. failure. Either for achievement or
:13:57. > :14:02.failure. Why don't you argue that the whole bank be taken over and
:14:02. > :14:05.run as a national bank by a bunch of politicians or bureaucrats?
:14:05. > :14:09.Stephen Hester receives a decent salary for doing the job he's doing.
:14:09. > :14:14.A very large salary for doing the job he's doing, that should be the
:14:14. > :14:17.incentive to do the job. Bonuses have got all out of kilter, bonuses
:14:17. > :14:20.should be for doing something exceptional, not just your job. If
:14:20. > :14:24.you look at the banks this year, they have seen their share prices
:14:24. > :14:27.fall, they have laid off workers. Many of them are not meeting their
:14:27. > :14:30.lending targets either. I don't see in those circumstances how it is
:14:30. > :14:33.right to pay people at the top of those banks, big bonuses, when they
:14:33. > :14:36.haven't added value and they are not creating wealth in this country.
:14:36. > :14:39.The argument is you attract talent, supposing Stephen Hester was to do
:14:39. > :14:44.what the President of the CBI thinks he might do, and say, well,
:14:44. > :14:49.sod this for a game of soldiers, I'm off, would that be all right?
:14:49. > :14:53.With all respect, the idea these bonuses and this high pay has
:14:53. > :14:58.attracted the right people, that was said leading up to the crisis,
:14:58. > :15:03.that you had to pay the huge bonuses, look where that got us.
:15:03. > :15:06.you not care if he resigns? That seems to be totally overplayed, the
:15:06. > :15:10.board has said it is not on the cards. You don't care? I don't
:15:10. > :15:14.think there is a risk of doing that. Stephen Hester has done the right
:15:14. > :15:18.thing in declining that bonus payout. He has done the right thing,
:15:18. > :15:22.it is a shame the Government didn't come in earlier. But we should not
:15:22. > :15:26.be seeing these excessive bonuses when a company is laying off
:15:26. > :15:31.workers, when it is not meeting its lending targets and its share price
:15:31. > :15:33.has fallen by 40% as well. All but two of the members of the
:15:33. > :15:37.European Union, we are of course one of the two, have agreed the
:15:38. > :15:42.basis of a new fiscal treaty, which will restore confidence in the euro,
:15:42. > :15:44.they hope. The problem, of course, is that the eurozone crisis has
:15:44. > :15:49.already demonstrated that you can't create confidence just by saying
:15:49. > :15:52.there is no need to worry. The immediate test is Greece, the
:15:52. > :15:56.Germans, who have the disadvantage of an unhappy history, but the
:15:56. > :16:03.great advantage of being the people who pay most of Europe's bills,
:16:03. > :16:06.want to mechanism that can keep the Greek Government and others honest.
:16:06. > :16:10.Mark Urban is in Brussels. This summit is supposed to be about
:16:10. > :16:15.growth, but austerity still the only game in town? Absolutely. You
:16:15. > :16:18.could say today's meeting was about trying to find a balance between
:16:18. > :16:22.ideas on how Europe gets out of this recession. The growth ideas
:16:23. > :16:26.were being put by people who feel stimulus is essential, the
:16:26. > :16:30.austerity ones embodied in this fiscal compact we have heard about
:16:30. > :16:33.over the last few months, which is really a German-designed mechanism,
:16:33. > :16:38.for keeping a tight grip on Government spending in the other
:16:38. > :16:41.side of the argument. Surprise, surprise, despite some commitments
:16:41. > :16:44.towards greater growth and helping with job creation, the German view
:16:44. > :16:48.of this prevailed, they have got this document further down the road
:16:48. > :16:52.to being fully adopted, and they are very pleased. Important as
:16:52. > :16:55.getting out of recession might be, many people argue this really isn't
:16:55. > :16:58.the critical issue facing the EU at the moment, it is that crisis with
:16:58. > :17:02.Greece, where the Greek Government could run out of money within a
:17:02. > :17:06.couple of days. And the other issue people are talking about is
:17:06. > :17:11.Germany's continued failure to put more money towards the stability
:17:11. > :17:19.funds that would be used to save other eurocountries, like Italy.
:17:19. > :17:23.German leadership, in all cases, is critical. A general strike hit
:17:23. > :17:26.Belgium today, stopping trains and closing factories, Europe is
:17:26. > :17:29.soozing up, with countries going back -- seizing up, with countries
:17:29. > :17:33.going back into recession, and protests against austerity plans.
:17:33. > :17:37.As European leaders sought other means of transport into this city,
:17:37. > :17:40.they faced criticism for ducking the most pressing issues.
:17:40. > :17:43.There are two overhanging issues that the eurozone needs to deal
:17:43. > :17:48.with, one is Greece, and the other one is what to do with the size of
:17:48. > :17:52.the bailout funds, the rescue mechanisms, neither of those are on
:17:52. > :17:56.the table here. When we talk to officials about why they are here,
:17:56. > :18:00.they are acidously waiting until the Greek debt restructuring deal
:18:00. > :18:05.is completed in Athens, that is not done yet. David Cameron was back
:18:05. > :18:08.here for the first time since last December's British veto, but talk a
:18:08. > :18:11.different language. This is a European council where we need to
:18:11. > :18:14.get serious about the growth agenda in Europe. Completing the single
:18:14. > :18:17.market, signing trade deals with the fastest-growing parts of the
:18:17. > :18:20.world, and it means a serious effort at deregulation,
:18:20. > :18:24.particularly for small businesses, so they can create the jobs and
:18:24. > :18:28.growth we need. So what happened to the vital UK
:18:28. > :18:31.interests he sought to protect last time? There has been slight
:18:31. > :18:37.diplomatic movement, yes, but it is more a case now of going with the
:18:37. > :18:42.flow. Clearly the veto is being slightly
:18:42. > :18:45.watered down now, in that the UK does seem to be prepared to axe qi
:18:45. > :18:49.he is in the use of the institutions. I think that is an
:18:49. > :18:53.acceptance of the fact they didn't have much choice about it. You can
:18:53. > :18:56.hardly complain against the ECJ and complain against it taking more
:18:56. > :19:00.decisions, the Liberal Democrats with their desire to sign up to
:19:00. > :19:05.everything that comes out of Europe are going to prove difficult in the
:19:05. > :19:10.coalition. After the meeting Mr Cameron insisted he hadn't rolled
:19:10. > :19:14.over on December's veto. They have had to make a treaty outside the EU.
:19:14. > :19:17.They would prefer to have it inside the EU, which is why they are
:19:17. > :19:21.already talking about trying to bring it back inside the EU. To
:19:21. > :19:24.argue the veto doesn't matter seems to me to be bizarre. We are not in
:19:24. > :19:27.this treaty, part of it, we are not bound by it, we don't have to
:19:27. > :19:32.ratify it, we don't have to take it to the British parliament, that is
:19:32. > :19:34.what the viet toe secures you. Central to -- Veto secures you.
:19:35. > :19:39.Central to Mr Cameron's approach, making common cause with Germany,
:19:39. > :19:43.the real power in this place. That means public smiles, but also quiet
:19:43. > :19:47.pleading for Germany to commit more money to the EU's bailout reserves,
:19:47. > :19:50.rather than continue its bad- tempered spat with Greece over the
:19:50. > :19:54.austerity package. Something that makes the possible need for those
:19:54. > :20:00.funds more likely. It has to be challenged, because
:20:00. > :20:05.who else, if not the Germans, should have learned the lesson of
:20:05. > :20:10.history. It was the Chancellor in the Republic who did the same as
:20:10. > :20:14.what we see now, in a depression phase for Germany, with six million
:20:14. > :20:19.unemployed people. He said we have to tient the belts, and we all know
:20:19. > :20:24.-- tighten the belts, we all know it led to the Third Reich, it led
:20:24. > :20:31.to the catastrophy and of Europe. Today's Belgian strike extended to
:20:31. > :20:34.this Audi plant on the fringes of Brussels. It was an act of
:20:34. > :20:38.industrial disobedience against German bosses, corporate and as
:20:38. > :20:44.fiscal enforces of Europe. Inside the summit, Germany stood firm,
:20:44. > :20:49.particularly in its reluctance to put more money into the euro rescue
:20:49. > :20:55.fund. It was surprising to me at Davos, you saw leader after leader,
:20:55. > :20:58.Christine Lagarde, Timothy Geithner, French, American, British, France
:20:58. > :21:02.calling on Europe to increase the size of its mechanism, the one
:21:02. > :21:05.voice against it was the keynote address by Angela Merkel who said,
:21:05. > :21:09.no. Everyone now has argued until you get the bailout mechanism to
:21:09. > :21:12.the size where the markets say, OK, we believe you are serious now, the
:21:12. > :21:17.attacks on the sovereign bonds of the periphery are going to continue,
:21:17. > :21:20.she has resisted. In that she is critical, she is isolated but
:21:20. > :21:25.critical. The German approach may now be
:21:25. > :21:29.questioned by many, but the fiscal compact with its strict spending
:21:29. > :21:35.limits moved another step forward today. The meeting concluded with
:21:35. > :21:39.agreement among 25 on more detailed terms. The treaty on stability co-
:21:39. > :21:44.ordination and governance in the EMU has also been finalised, it
:21:44. > :21:49.took not so long to agree on it. It will be signed in March, and I
:21:49. > :21:55.think the fact that it was possible to come to an agreement, not only
:21:55. > :21:59.with all the countries, but by 25 members of the European Union was
:21:59. > :22:04.indeed very impressive. One of the reasons for the grid lock in Europe
:22:05. > :22:09.at the moment, on the big issues, is an absence of leadership or
:22:09. > :22:14.fresh ideas. David Cameron and Nicolas Sarkozy, for example, are
:22:14. > :22:24.very reluctant to challenge Chancellor Mercury on her austerity
:22:24. > :22:26.
:22:26. > :22:31.policies. Now d Al-Khalili Merkel on her austerity policies. -- --
:22:31. > :22:37.Chancellor Merckel on her austerity policies. Mario Monti, he in
:22:37. > :22:42.Brussels has been a phenomenon as a commissioner for ten years. He has
:22:42. > :22:46.done a brilliant performance. He is the one who gets the whole picture,
:22:46. > :22:51.who captures the situation. He came to Berlin with clear proposal, I
:22:51. > :22:56.think he's the, if you want the secret leader of this bunch of
:22:56. > :22:59.European leaders, and I like this. He's an economist, he is an expert,
:22:59. > :23:08.and at the moment, he's one of the toughest politicians in the
:23:08. > :23:14.European Union. Mitly, Spain and Greece are struggling with bugetry
:23:14. > :23:19.discipline, even before the compact is considered. Whether or not De
:23:19. > :23:23.Montfort can challenge the German doctrine of austerity, when
:23:24. > :23:30.Chancellor Merkel has to write the checks.
:23:30. > :23:35.We are joined by our guest from Athens and Europe. With me in the
:23:35. > :23:41.studio is Joe Johnson, a Conservative MP who used to write
:23:41. > :23:51.the FT's column. Why are those members involved like lie to take
:23:51. > :23:53.
:23:53. > :23:55.these restraints any more seriously than the last ones. I think the
:23:55. > :24:01.fiscal compact will give the possibility that all the measures
:24:01. > :24:07.are decided now in a positive way for the fiscal stability. But that
:24:07. > :24:17.we also at the same time have now the room to manoeuvre to talk more
:24:17. > :24:19.
:24:19. > :24:23.about growth and structural changes. Do you like the sound of these
:24:23. > :24:29.restraints? With only focusing on the one side of the equation, which
:24:29. > :24:33.is who is writing the cheque and the input side, if you wish, not
:24:33. > :24:43.really focusing on the output, which is basically growth, and what
:24:43. > :24:44.
:24:44. > :24:49.would actually be the exit from the crisis. These conditions that
:24:49. > :24:58.Germany is talking about, their cuts in pensions, budget, minimum
:24:58. > :25:03.wage, is any of that going to help Greece to grow? What will help
:25:03. > :25:07.Greece to grow is structural reforms, deregulation of the market.
:25:07. > :25:14.Many of these reforms are reflected in the austerity package, but not
:25:14. > :25:20.all of it. I think the overall weight, the burden on the fiscal
:25:20. > :25:24.changes, is really not put in the right focus. I think in this new
:25:24. > :25:31.package we have a different focus. That is being negotiated as we
:25:31. > :25:34.speak. That is looking forward to more structural reforms, more
:25:34. > :25:39.deregulations, versus fiscal changes alone. How does it look to
:25:39. > :25:43.you? I think it is great that they are focusing on competitiveness as
:25:44. > :25:48.closely as they are. The eurozone will shrink by one percentage point,
:25:48. > :25:53.GDP, this year. We are acutely exposed to that here in the UK.
:25:53. > :25:57.Measures, for example, as it was said, to deregulate, to exempt
:25:57. > :26:01.small businesses from new regulation, to strike new trade
:26:01. > :26:06.deals with countries such as Korea, and there is one in India to be
:26:06. > :26:11.discussed in Delhi. That is great news. Do you worry that some of
:26:12. > :26:17.these restraints may squeeze the life out of a country like Greece?
:26:17. > :26:23.It is already squeezing the life out of our country. Go on? I think
:26:23. > :26:27.they have to see we need a mixture of these austerity measures. I
:26:27. > :26:32.think only fiscal discipline is department for the long run. But on
:26:32. > :26:38.the other side, it is also important that now Greece does
:26:38. > :26:42.structural changes. Making it possible for the economy to be
:26:42. > :26:46.balanced, which is necessary for structural measures to get to more
:26:46. > :26:52.competitiveness, and that means, for example, to get rid of wrong
:26:52. > :26:55.regulations. But you are talking about cutting what, 150,000
:26:55. > :27:02.Government jobs, cutting defence, cutting pensions, cutting the
:27:02. > :27:05.minimum wage, what do you imagine that is going to do to Greece?
:27:05. > :27:09.is the alternative. If we continue to finance Greece on that level,
:27:09. > :27:13.Greece will be bankrupt, it will never become competitive. That is
:27:13. > :27:19.the mistake of 30 years of politics that has to be changed. All the
:27:19. > :27:22.countries have to do such things, and we see now in every country in
:27:22. > :27:31.the eurozone, it is stronger than the United States, less deficit,
:27:31. > :27:37.they have a better economic show nan the UK, -- than the UK, and
:27:37. > :27:40.less inflation, I think we are on the straight track. With Monti, as
:27:40. > :27:45.rightly mentioned, the leader in Italy, that makes all the
:27:45. > :27:49.difference to show it is possible to combine fiscal measures, keeping
:27:49. > :27:54.the rules, keeping the rules which were not kept in the last ten years,
:27:54. > :27:59.and make it possible to build on that growth. Do you worry about
:27:59. > :28:09.social unrest, that sort of thing, in Greece, if these conditions are
:28:09. > :28:09.
:28:09. > :28:17.adhered to? I think what generates more upset is the bad media that
:28:17. > :28:21.has been going on for the last few years. About Greece. Greeks are
:28:21. > :28:27.rather proud people, they have been doing their share of austerity.
:28:27. > :28:33.Seven different waves of austerity measures have been taken. So, they
:28:33. > :28:36.are becoming, I have to admit, a little bit impatient with any
:28:36. > :28:43.additional criticisms. Let's be realistic, you wouldn't be in this
:28:43. > :28:46.mess if your Government hadn't told lies about the public financings?
:28:46. > :28:50.- Finances? It is not my Government now that has given any lies. My
:28:50. > :28:59.Government for the last two years has been trying to move all of us
:28:59. > :29:04.out of this. So this is the reality down at the bottom line. When you
:29:04. > :29:09.look at what's been agreed today, and everybody must hope, presumably
:29:09. > :29:12.that it works, what was the point of David Cameron's veto, last time
:29:12. > :29:16.round? The key thing is Britain is part of the solution, not the
:29:16. > :29:21.problem. We are at the table, contributing useful ideas to the
:29:21. > :29:24.negotiation, to the fiscal pact. It has now created the political space
:29:24. > :29:28.for Angela Merkel to do what she needs to do, in terms of giving
:29:28. > :29:35.greater resources to the bailout funds. To eventually looking at the
:29:35. > :29:39.possibility of eurobonds. Germans have got everything they
:29:39. > :29:42.wanted? She has to avoid a revolt back home. There are political
:29:42. > :29:46.restraints she's operating on. far as your leader is concerned,
:29:46. > :29:50.with the called veto, supposed to ensure that the institutions of the
:29:50. > :29:54.European Union were not used in a blanket fashion, to enforce these
:29:54. > :29:57.conditions, that were supposed to ensure that the European Court of
:29:57. > :30:01.Justice was kept out of things and the rest, all that has gone by the
:30:01. > :30:06.board, hasn't it? Britain's overriding interest is truly
:30:06. > :30:10.protected. That is to put the single market, that preserved front
:30:10. > :30:14.and centre, in all these negotiations, to make sure that is
:30:14. > :30:18.preserved. Furthermore, it is in our interest to make sure the
:30:18. > :30:22.eurozone gets back on its feet, financially. We are part of that
:30:22. > :30:25.process. There is not a single safeguard for the City in these
:30:25. > :30:29.proposals, which is what your leader said he was most concerned
:30:29. > :30:32.about. There is no treaty without safeguards either. That is the
:30:32. > :30:35.critical point. No treaty is going ahead without safeguards. Thank you
:30:36. > :30:40.very much. In a few minutes we will hear from
:30:41. > :30:45.one of the heros of the Egyptian revolution, the former Google
:30:45. > :30:48.worker, Wael Ghonim. But first, in the past eight years, over 100
:30:48. > :30:52.mentally ill people have died either while the police were
:30:52. > :30:56.supposedly looking after them, or following what is called police
:30:56. > :31:02.contact. How come some of them are our most vulnerable fellow citizens.
:31:02. > :31:07.It is not just the fact of the deaths, it is shou such deaths are
:31:07. > :31:10.investigated. We -- how such deaths are investigated. We report on how
:31:10. > :31:13.a musician died at a police station, his family believe there is
:31:13. > :31:23.evidence that will show what happened, but four years on they
:31:23. > :31:25.
:31:25. > :31:29.still don't know why it did. He was a mu circumstance artist, he
:31:29. > :31:33.did modelling, he travelled all -- he was a musician, an artist, he
:31:33. > :31:41.did modelling, he travelled all over the world. He was really
:31:41. > :31:49.talented, always doing impressions, he was a dancer. We miss him very
:31:49. > :31:53.much. He was charming. Sean Rigg's family are proud of how
:31:53. > :32:01.their brother lived, coping with mental illness, this is where they
:32:01. > :32:05.believe he died, the back yard of Brixton Police Station. Right here?
:32:05. > :32:09.For nearly four years they have been trying to find out how and why
:32:09. > :32:15.it happened. Raising serious concerns about the way people
:32:15. > :32:19.needing psychiatric care are ending up in the hands of the police, with
:32:19. > :32:24.disastrous and tragic consequences. # No
:32:24. > :32:28.Sean Rigg had struggled with, and for the most part, overcome mental
:32:28. > :32:34.health issues. At the age of 40, he was trying to build a reputation as
:32:34. > :32:37.a musician, while living, in what the mental health service calls, a
:32:37. > :32:42.low-support hospital. In August 2008, he stopped taking his
:32:42. > :32:46.medication, and his illness was becoming apparent.
:32:47. > :32:51.What we know is that Sean was having a breakdown on the day, the
:32:51. > :32:55.21st of August, there were several calls from the hostel made to the
:32:55. > :33:00.police for them, for assistance to take him to a place of safety. For
:33:00. > :33:03.example a hospital, not a police station.
:33:03. > :33:10.We understand the hostel in Balham made at least four calls to the
:33:10. > :33:13.police over several hours. But by 7.00pm, no police had arrived, and
:33:13. > :33:18.Sean Rigg, agitated and unstable, walked out into the south London
:33:18. > :33:23.streets. He was displaying behaviour which
:33:23. > :33:27.they say was bizarre. He just had a pair of white trousers and shoes,
:33:27. > :33:31.and two members of the public noticed that this man was behaving
:33:31. > :33:36.strangely. They reported that to the police. That is why the police
:33:36. > :33:42.were called? That is why the police were called. This time there was a
:33:42. > :33:47.police response. At 7.40 on New Park Road, four officers in a van
:33:47. > :33:51.spotted Sean Rigg. He was bare chested, they gave chase.
:33:51. > :33:55.They eventually caught him here on the Weir Estate, arresting him for
:33:55. > :34:02.a public order offence. Sean Rigg's family believe he was injured while
:34:02. > :34:07.being restrained and put in the back of a police van.
:34:07. > :34:12.They should have known that Sean was suffering from a mental illness,
:34:12. > :34:16.and therefore restraint for a personal that has such an illness
:34:16. > :34:22.is tantermount that you have to be more careful. By the time the van
:34:22. > :34:28.had driven the 2.5 miles to Brixton Police Station, it was 7.53, it was
:34:28. > :34:31.then parked in the yard for over ten minutes, before Sean Rigg
:34:31. > :34:35.emerged. More than an hour after arriving at Brixton Police Station,
:34:35. > :34:39.Sean Rigg was taken to hospital, where he was pronounced dead. The
:34:39. > :34:44.family, distraught, wanted an explanation. Fearing a cover-up,
:34:44. > :34:51.two days after his death, they filmed the station yard. Including
:34:51. > :34:58.the CCTT cameras overlooking the cage where he was placed. Is --
:34:58. > :35:08.CCTV cameras overlooking where the cage he was placed.
:35:08. > :35:32.
:35:32. > :35:37.The family ensured everything was For all those assurances, the
:35:37. > :35:39.family later learned the vital tapes didn't, in fact, exist. The
:35:39. > :35:44.independent Police Complaints Authority, who had first told them
:35:44. > :35:49.there were no outdoor cameras, now said there were in fact outdoor
:35:49. > :35:56.cameras, but they weren't working. What obscured footage the family
:35:56. > :36:00.have seen from indoor cameras, is, they say, disturbing.
:36:00. > :36:05.Sean is evidently in and out of consciousness. He's actually
:36:05. > :36:09.literally dying. You suspect he was in a bad way? While he was in the
:36:09. > :36:16.van? We're pretty sure he was in a bad way, or there was some medical
:36:16. > :36:20.situation going on. While he was in the van. On the CCTV footage,
:36:20. > :36:25.clearly an officer says, "if he dies in here, we will all be in the
:36:25. > :36:34.shit". The Riggs also want to know why the
:36:34. > :36:38.area where their brother was first destained, Weir Road, wasn't
:36:38. > :36:42.forensically examined, as a place of death. The final responsibility
:36:42. > :36:48.falls on the IPCC. There is a golden hour where evidence needs to
:36:48. > :36:52.be looked at, forensically, to try to shed some light on what happened.
:36:52. > :36:58.This is the crucial hour after an event? The crucial hour. It seems
:36:58. > :37:02.ridiculous that the police decided not to go down there.
:37:02. > :37:06.Sean Rigg's case is far from unique. His family are at the forefront of
:37:06. > :37:10.a campaign over all deaths in police custody. It is a movement
:37:10. > :37:12.sparked by the death of another black man with mental health issues,
:37:13. > :37:17.Roger Sylvester, who died after being restrained by police in
:37:17. > :37:22.London in the 1990s. Over the last eight years, over 400 people have
:37:22. > :37:26.died in police custody, or after police contact. Nearly 0% have
:37:26. > :37:31.mental health problems. -- 30% have mental health problems.
:37:31. > :37:36.The campaigning group, INQUEST, is currently investigating 18 such
:37:36. > :37:40.cases. There is no proper central scrutiny of critical inquest
:37:40. > :37:44.verdicts or coroners' recommendations. We have had report
:37:44. > :37:49.after report, that has highlighted how police custody is an
:37:49. > :37:52.inappropriate place for people with mental health problems. Yet we have
:37:52. > :37:59.not seen proper, accountable learning in action from cross
:37:59. > :38:02.Government agencies. Four years a the IPCC said the
:38:02. > :38:07.problem was critical and demanded the police identified as having
:38:07. > :38:11.mental health issues, known as section 163 cases, should be taken,
:38:11. > :38:15.by the police, to a hospital. But Newsnight has found that is not
:38:15. > :38:22.happening. Cases still aren't properly recorded. We asked all 44
:38:22. > :38:27.police forces in England and Wales, where their Section 136 cases ended
:38:27. > :38:32.up. Of the 40 that responded 18 were unable to give figures. Of
:38:32. > :38:36.those who could, 14 forces, nearly two-thirds of them, were still
:38:36. > :38:40.taking all their mental health cases to a police station. The
:38:40. > :38:43.watchdog, the IPCC, aren't blaming the police, but the lack of mental
:38:43. > :38:47.health facilities. There is no reason at all why a police force
:38:47. > :38:51.would not take someone to a place of safety if one were available.
:38:51. > :38:56.Isn't it worrying they haven't kept the figures? It is worrying they
:38:56. > :38:59.haven't kept the figures, it is unfortunate, that is not the
:38:59. > :39:02.principle issue, people with mental health problems shouldn't go to
:39:02. > :39:06.police cells, it is simple as that. Given this is a situation, are you
:39:06. > :39:09.concerned with the way police are handling mental health cases?
:39:09. > :39:16.Police officers have to ensure they are trained to deal with people
:39:16. > :39:20.that they are restraining, that can be particularly difficult when they
:39:20. > :39:26.are mental health patients. This will never be an exact science.
:39:26. > :39:30.Sean Rigg's family have no faith in the IPCC, they feel the ostensibly
:39:30. > :39:34.independent watchdog is aunch blind to the failings of the police. What
:39:34. > :39:38.the Rigg have found out they say they have had to discover for
:39:38. > :39:41.themselves, in an endless round of legal meetings. This is your life
:39:41. > :39:46.now? It has been for the last three-and-a-half years. Clearly we
:39:46. > :39:52.would rather be doing something else. Our life changed the day Sean
:39:52. > :39:58.died, completely. The Riggs and others note that no police officer
:39:58. > :40:01.has ever been convicted after a death in custody. They say the IPCC
:40:01. > :40:04.is toothless. Why aren't these cases treated like criminal
:40:04. > :40:10.investigations? They are treated like criminal investigations. We
:40:10. > :40:15.have a 24/7 callout facilities for an Article Two cautious a death
:40:15. > :40:22.following police contact. The IPCC has 130 investigators to cover the
:40:22. > :40:28.whole of the country on a 24/67 basis, it is impossible -- 24/7
:40:28. > :40:32.basis, it is impossible to be everywhere at one time. These have
:40:32. > :40:35.to be dealt with in a court of law or coroners' inquest, that is the
:40:35. > :40:39.time to investigate whether it has been investigated robustly or not.
:40:39. > :40:42.It has to stand up to investigation. It is too late, if you bungle
:40:42. > :40:49.collecting evidence it is too late? There is no evidence we have
:40:49. > :40:52.bungled collecting evidence. This summer, when the inquest into
:40:52. > :40:57.the death of Sean Rigg is scheduled to start, it will be four years
:40:57. > :41:02.since his death. The Rigg family believe it is their last chance of
:41:02. > :41:07.finding what really happened to their brother. And why.
:41:07. > :41:11.I really feel that they didn't care enough about Sean, to give him the
:41:11. > :41:16.help he needed. Perhaps they thought he was a nobody, he had no
:41:16. > :41:19.family, he was trouble, you know, just need to sweep him off the
:41:19. > :41:25.street. If they had afforded him the care that any human being
:41:26. > :41:33.deserves, we believe that Shaun would have had a chance. -- Sean
:41:33. > :41:36.would have had a chance. This time last year we were all agog at the
:41:36. > :41:40.unprecedented, the unimaginable, spectacle of Egyptians demanding a
:41:40. > :41:44.new Government, they succeeded, at least in the first task of getting
:41:44. > :41:49.rid of President Mubarak, because the regime did not comprehend, it
:41:49. > :41:52.had not the fores to resist the power of popular dissent, that
:41:52. > :41:57.could be mobilised by new technology. It was in the words of
:41:57. > :42:05.the Egyptian who is credited with FA sill tee Tateing much of it,
:42:05. > :42:09.revolution -- facilitating much of it, revolution 2.0. Che Guvara was
:42:09. > :42:13.a doctor before revolutionly, Wael Ghonim, a computer executive. In
:42:13. > :42:18.June last year, he saw a photo of a young Egyptian tortured and killed
:42:18. > :42:22.by the authorities, he burst into tears, then he created a Facebook
:42:22. > :42:27.page, and within minutes a digital tsunami was unleashed.
:42:27. > :42:31.People who had known nothing but dictatorship, grasped the
:42:32. > :42:35.possibility of change. Wael Ghonim himself only became an
:42:35. > :42:39.international figure upon his release from 11 days under arrest.
:42:39. > :42:44.TRANSLATION: I want to say sorry to every mother and father who lost
:42:44. > :42:48.their sons, it is the fault of all those holding on to power.
:42:48. > :42:52.Overwhelmed, he walked off camera, and into calls for him to take on
:42:52. > :42:57.the role of leader of the revolution. These he resisted. The
:42:57. > :43:01.Egyptian revolution, though, remains unfinished. Yet it has
:43:01. > :43:07.already proved the potency of Ghonin's slogan, "the power of the
:43:07. > :43:12.people can be greater than the people in power". He's with us now.
:43:12. > :43:19.You had lived years and years with a regime of dictatorship, what was
:43:19. > :43:26.it, do you think, that changed in your country that made it collapse
:43:26. > :43:32.where the position was untenable? believe that dictatorship cannot
:43:32. > :43:36.live in a new age. The main reason is that we're talking about a new
:43:36. > :43:40.generation that is basically more empowered and communicate more with
:43:40. > :43:46.the rest of the world. They see what happens to the people. I
:43:46. > :43:53.remember the first time I went outside Egypt to the US, the one
:43:53. > :43:58.comment I mentioned to my friends back home, guys we're being fooled.
:43:58. > :44:04.We could live a much better life than the life we have. With more
:44:04. > :44:08.and more Egyptians being exposed to the world, as well as communicating
:44:08. > :44:11.together, and with more and more the regime is becoming brutal,
:44:11. > :44:14.because no-one is held accountable for the mistakes they are doing.
:44:14. > :44:19.They are always doing the right thing. Mubarak never did a wrong
:44:19. > :44:25.thing during his 30 years in power. So with all of that happening,
:44:25. > :44:30.Egypt was ready, but everyone was scared. When Tunisia happened,
:44:30. > :44:34.everyone saw the Tunisian model as such an inspiration. It wasn't
:44:34. > :44:39.really the page where I was the leader. People looked at Tunisia
:44:39. > :44:45.and said this should happen in Egypt, we are in a much worse state
:44:45. > :44:49.than what what happened in Tunisia. What was it about that photograph,
:44:49. > :44:54.which clearly, deeply distressed you, but became a catalyst for a
:44:54. > :45:01.big social change. What was it about it? I think that, there are
:45:01. > :45:06.so many people dying, and sometimes, without really lots of reasoning,
:45:06. > :45:15.or overanalysis, people pick up a story and it becomes viral. If we
:45:15. > :45:19.want to think of some reasons, Khaled Saeed was a young, middle-
:45:19. > :45:24.class Egyptian, his photo shows he was brutally tortured, simply meant
:45:24. > :45:30.a lot to a lot of Egyptians. He was, a lot of people felt he was one of
:45:30. > :45:34.them, the name of the page, when I made it, there was no plans of it,
:45:34. > :45:38.I thought we are all like Khaled Saeed, we can be like him, get
:45:38. > :45:46.killed in the street and nobody will be held accountability. We are
:45:46. > :45:50.all suffering just like how he suffered. It was the possibility of
:45:50. > :45:55.modern media that made efrbg have access to that story, and the
:45:55. > :45:58.opportunity -- everybody have access to that story and have the
:45:58. > :46:02.opportunity to express themselves? The best thing that happened in
:46:02. > :46:06.Egypt in the last ten years the decentralisation of mainstream
:46:06. > :46:09.media. This happened in different areas, one of the private channels.
:46:09. > :46:15.Despite the fact that the regime, I mentioned it in the book, I was
:46:15. > :46:18.talking in detail about that, the regime was pressuring the owners of
:46:18. > :46:22.the channels, it still opened a wind development the Internet,
:46:22. > :46:27.people are much braver behind the keyboard than in real life. It is a
:46:27. > :46:32.fact. The Internet made a lot of people think that, I am not alone
:46:32. > :46:36.there are other people who think exactly like I do. The second is we
:46:36. > :46:41.can do an action together. We can collaberate on doing something, and
:46:41. > :46:45.saying no, we don't agree with what is going on. Also disseminating the
:46:45. > :46:49.truth. When the state media always promoted lies about the regime and
:46:49. > :46:55.how great it is, and how Mubarak is bringing stability to the country,
:46:55. > :46:59.and how everyone is enjoying life, and selling it on air 24/7. That
:46:59. > :47:04.didn't work, when people went on- line they knew the truth.
:47:04. > :47:08.Revolution 2.0, it is not completed yet, you have still not got a new
:47:08. > :47:12.President? I believe that the revolution is a process. We are
:47:12. > :47:15.undergoing a process. Egypt is recovering from 60 years of
:47:15. > :47:20.military rule, which haven't been completed yet, as you have
:47:20. > :47:24.mentioned. As well as 30 years of dictatorship. The next, most
:47:24. > :47:31.critical phase, at the moment, is that a complete power transition
:47:32. > :47:37.happens, by electing a petd and all the executives and -- President and
:47:37. > :47:41.all the executives and power moves from the army to an elected
:47:41. > :47:44.President. You are sure that is going to happen? I will do my best
:47:44. > :47:54.to make it happen. That is enough for today, more tomorrow, good
:47:54. > :48:14.
:48:15. > :48:19.for today, more tomorrow, good night.
:48:19. > :48:25.Another frosty start. In the morning it is cold outside. Once
:48:25. > :48:29.more it will stay cold all week. Cloud in eastern areas, working
:48:29. > :48:34.westwards. Anywhere in the thicker cloud may be one or two flakes of
:48:34. > :48:38.snow. Not expecting too many problems. A fou flakes here and
:48:38. > :48:42.there. Brightening up in northern England, same in the East Midlands,
:48:42. > :48:46.in the West Midlands, south-east England and east Wales, it will be
:48:46. > :48:49.cloudy, after a bright start. South-West England, where it should
:48:49. > :48:54.be a brighter day, and Pembrokeshire, brighter spells.
:48:54. > :48:57.Where the sun is out, temperatures only reaching two or three. The
:48:58. > :49:01.cloud pushing in across North Wales, providing one or two snow showers.
:49:01. > :49:05.There could be one or two pushing on to the east coast of Northern
:49:05. > :49:08.Ireland. Generally across Northern Ireland, a brighter day than on
:49:08. > :49:14.Monday. Sunny skies across the Highlands, temperatures only
:49:14. > :49:18.getting above freezing. One or two snow showers possible on the east
:49:18. > :49:23.coast of Scotland. Edinburgh a brighter day, it is cold, starting
:49:23. > :49:26.with a frost, temperatures barely reaching two or three. Showers
:49:26. > :49:30.again after cloudy conditions, Wednesday promises a bit more