:00:09. > :00:13.We don't know precisely how many people have been killed by the
:00:13. > :00:17.Syrian army, as President Assad tries to murder those who oppose
:00:17. > :00:22.his dictatorship, but we do know they include children. All this
:00:22. > :00:26.while China and Russia provide a form of diplomatic protection.
:00:26. > :00:30.They bury their dead children at night in Homs, because to do
:00:30. > :00:34.otherwise can be suicidal. If this is where relying on the UN Security
:00:34. > :00:37.Council gets you, what else is possible?
:00:37. > :00:44.The international diplomatic effort hit the buffers on Saturday, now
:00:44. > :00:49.there is talk of a coalition of the willing. Calling itself, The
:00:49. > :00:54.Friends of Syria. Bosses at Network Rail denounce
:00:54. > :00:59.their bonus, will anyone dare risk the finger-pointing and accept one.
:00:59. > :01:02.I will ask the Transport Secretary to name a single taxpayer-backed
:01:02. > :01:09.enterprise where the bosses deserve a bonus.
:01:09. > :01:12.A judge sets free an extremist cleric that cites mass murder, why
:01:12. > :01:22.isn't the state free to protect itself.
:01:22. > :01:25.
:01:25. > :01:33.Jackie Mason, the man who gave up Bat Mitzvas for performing speaks
:01:33. > :01:41.to us. His supporters and toadies call him
:01:41. > :01:47.Abu, father, some father, Bashar al-Assad's troops are shelling
:01:47. > :01:54.Syrian civilians indiscriminatly, and the United Nations is not
:01:54. > :01:58.embold ened enough to do anything. China, Russia -- Britain and the US
:01:58. > :02:01.have turned to The Government in Syria has been
:02:01. > :02:04.called a failed and murderous regime.
:02:04. > :02:10.We have just returned from siria, we asked our reporter to find out
:02:10. > :02:13.what he could. All day today, yesterday and the
:02:13. > :02:19.day before, the city at the heart of Syria's uprising has been
:02:19. > :02:26.shaking to the sound of a Government bombardment.
:02:26. > :02:33.Allah hu Akbar. In reply, the rebels shout back their defiance,
:02:33. > :02:36."God is most great" they cry. hu Akbar.
:02:36. > :02:40.TRANSLATION: Believe me, Homs is ablaze, you don't want to be here
:02:40. > :02:44.now. Dead body in the streets, under the wreckage of destroyed
:02:44. > :02:47.buildings, wounded people in their hundreds.
:02:47. > :02:52.Film posted on the Internet apparently shows some of those
:02:52. > :02:57.injured being treated in a makeshift hospital in Homs today.
:02:57. > :03:00.This doctor is telling a victim he has Russia and China to thank for
:03:00. > :03:03.his wounds. The countries that vetoed the UN Security Council
:03:03. > :03:12.resolution at the workend, that would have called on the Syrian
:03:13. > :03:16.Government to end the bloodshed. The UN gave the Syrian army, they
:03:16. > :03:20.gave Assad's army the OK and green light to kill more. They have
:03:20. > :03:25.bombed one of our hospitals, killed the doctors and the nurses and the
:03:25. > :03:31.patients in there. We have only one hospital left. The injured people
:03:31. > :03:35.are on the floor, dead people are on the floor. We don't have enough
:03:35. > :03:38.doctors. We only have four doctors, in that field hospital, what can
:03:38. > :03:42.they do. The uprising that started nearly a
:03:42. > :03:47.year ago in Deraa, has now spread to towns across Syria, even to some
:03:47. > :03:52.parts of the capital, Damascus. But it is Homs, Syria's third-largest
:03:52. > :03:56.city, that has seen much of the worst violence. It is divided into
:03:56. > :04:00.a patchwork of pro-Government and anti-Government districts. Thecy
:04:00. > :04:07.centre is controlled by the authorities, along with loyalist
:04:07. > :04:13.neighbourhoods, which include Al- Zahara and Akrama, around them a
:04:13. > :04:18.ring of areas controlled by the rebt, by the Government is now
:04:18. > :04:23.trying -- the rebels, which the Government is now trying to pound.
:04:23. > :04:27.It is thought to be the worst bombardment here since the uprising
:04:27. > :04:31.began, with heavier artillery, including multiple rocket launchers
:04:31. > :04:34.being deployed by the state. We are living in the middle of
:04:34. > :04:40.bombardments by rocket launchers, they have been hitting us with
:04:40. > :04:45.rockets from 5.00am. This is the first time they have used rocket
:04:45. > :04:50.launchers, and hit us with rockets. They usually hit us with mortar
:04:50. > :04:58.bombs and tank shells. Among those killed, wrapped in this shroud, a
:04:58. > :05:01.seven-year-old girl. Like other victims, she was buried,
:05:01. > :05:09.hurriedly at night, without ceremony. Fear that those carrying
:05:09. > :05:14.the body might themselves be hit. It is in the district of Baba Amr,
:05:14. > :05:18.that the bombardment has been particularly heavy. This apartment
:05:18. > :05:22.in Baba Amr had to be abandoned today, after being hit by a shell,
:05:22. > :05:26.according to activists that filmed it. The beds had been used as a
:05:26. > :05:33.field hospital to treat the wounded. When you try to cross the street
:05:33. > :05:38.and move out of your neighbourhood, the sniebers shoot you. As -
:05:38. > :05:45.snipers shoot you. They are bombing a civilian house, civilian
:05:45. > :05:52.buildings. They are using tanks. The Russian tanks. They are using
:05:52. > :05:58.mortars and shells. Today they are trying to use missile launchers.
:05:58. > :06:01.But they didn't. But across the city, the district
:06:01. > :06:05.of Zahara, is solidly behind the Government. Newsnight was taken
:06:05. > :06:10.there recently on a tour organised by the authorities, past a series
:06:10. > :06:14.of sandbagged military checkpoints and mortgage traits of Bashar al-
:06:14. > :06:20.Assad. -- portraits of Bashar al- Assad. Unusually there is also a
:06:20. > :06:27.poster that promotes his brother, who is thought to be more hardline.
:06:27. > :06:30.In Zahara most of the people are Alawites, part of the same Shi'ite
:06:30. > :06:34.sect that the President belongs to. Many have links to the security
:06:34. > :06:37.forces. Some say they have been forced to flee from their homes in
:06:37. > :06:41.Homs. Even here they say they are targeted by opposition snipers.
:06:41. > :06:45.Those killed today in Homs, certainly include some rebel
:06:45. > :06:51.fighters. This man was shot in an attack on a Government position.
:06:51. > :06:55.But most victims are civilians. Who will protect them now? With no
:06:55. > :07:00.diplomatic agreement on how to deal with the Syrian regime, many on the
:07:00. > :07:04.opposition side, like these protestors in Damascus today, are
:07:04. > :07:11.increasingly hoping they can obtain more weapons to defend themselves.
:07:11. > :07:15.Our diplomatic editor, Mark Urban, is here in the studio. How have the
:07:15. > :07:19.response supports of this UN resolution have reacted to the
:07:19. > :07:26.blocking? With the strongest language one can remember on a
:07:26. > :07:31.diplomatic matter for many years. France, UK, US, using words like
:07:31. > :07:34."scandal", "shame", it really has been a very strong reaction.
:07:34. > :07:39.William Hague, the Foreign Secretary, continued in much the
:07:39. > :07:44.same vein in the Commons today. Speaker, there is no need to mince
:07:44. > :07:48.words about this, Russia and China have twice vetoed reasonable and
:07:48. > :07:52.necessary action by the UN curt council. Such vetos are a betrayal
:07:52. > :07:55.of the Syrian people n deploying them they have let down the Arab
:07:55. > :07:58.League, they have increased the likelihood of what they wished to
:07:58. > :08:01.avoid in Syria, civil war, and they have placed themselves on the wrong
:08:01. > :08:06.side of Arab and international opinion.
:08:06. > :08:09.What options are open to people like William Hague, or the American
:08:09. > :08:14.a second, now? He and the French today were talking about this
:08:14. > :08:19.coalition of the willing, the called Friends of Syria. This is
:08:19. > :08:24.the Contact Group idea, the Arab League plus a few years, obviously
:08:24. > :08:28.the UK and France among them. Their options are very, very limited,
:08:28. > :08:32.supply arms, there is an EU arms embargo, most countries wouldn't
:08:32. > :08:35.wish to go that far straight away. Any attempt to extend international
:08:35. > :08:38.restrictive action, of course, would have to go back to the
:08:39. > :08:43.Security Council, maybe their only option is to attempt to build
:08:43. > :08:47.bridges with Russia and China again. We will explore this in a minute or
:08:47. > :08:51.two. The intriguing question is why the Russians did it? There are
:08:51. > :08:57.views it was a bit like Britain's veto in the EU, it was a failed
:08:57. > :09:01.negotiating tactic. Some reports out of the UN suggested the UN
:09:01. > :09:04.ambassador, and the Chinese were reassuring people on Friday that we
:09:05. > :09:10.can do and deal and then it all went wrong, they say they were
:09:10. > :09:13.moved too quickly to the vote. Some say they were directed, they took
:09:13. > :09:16.political instruction, and Moscow took the lead, that Sergei Lavrov,
:09:16. > :09:21.the Foreign Minister, was very important, and he decided they
:09:21. > :09:26.should block this, because it looked too much like regime change,
:09:26. > :09:32.Iraq, Libya, very different tactics, but the same result, he felt the
:09:32. > :09:35.westerners wanted, today he was unrepentants.
:09:35. > :09:39.-- Unrepentant. TRANSLATION: Some voices in the west giving their
:09:39. > :09:43.opinion on the vote sound obscene, on the verge of hysteria, it brings
:09:43. > :09:50.to mind the saying "he who gets angry, is rarely in the right".
:09:50. > :10:00.Do the Russians regard the survival of Assad's regime as a vital
:10:00. > :10:07.interest? There are echos of the old Cold War game today, and a
:10:07. > :10:11.Turkish contingent accused them of this. We saw a few weeks ago the
:10:11. > :10:15.Russian aircraft Admiral appearing off the Syrian coast. The Syrian
:10:15. > :10:20.high command on board to be feted by Syrian military people and shown
:10:20. > :10:29.the hardware on forward. Russia has a base in Syria for naval vessels,
:10:29. > :10:34.it has a signals intelligence camp, it has been training the Syrians
:10:34. > :10:38.for decades. Is that what it is about. No Russian Foreign Minister
:10:38. > :10:43.say the survival of Bashar al-Assad himself is not part of the Russian
:10:43. > :10:47.interest, they say it would have created civil war, because places
:10:47. > :10:55.were being led to a civil war and massacre. Many think the objective
:10:55. > :11:00.of thwarting US objectives still is very important in Moscow.
:11:00. > :11:07.To discuss the next steps for Syria I'm joined by an opposition
:11:07. > :11:09.activisted base in -- based in the UK. And a former Russian
:11:09. > :11:14.intelligence adviser. Are you comfortable having the
:11:14. > :11:18.blood of Syrians on your hands? think we again have a situation
:11:18. > :11:25.where we tend to this, this is black and this is white. So there
:11:25. > :11:29.is nothing inbetween. I: That is between a vote in favour and a veto
:11:29. > :11:32.it is pretty black and white? of all the Russian Government asked
:11:32. > :11:37.the United Nations to postpone the voting for a few days until Sergei
:11:37. > :11:44.Lavrov goes to Syria and talks to Assad. That did not happen. That
:11:44. > :11:48.was steam rolling very quick low. Secondly, the fact that two
:11:48. > :11:53.permanent members of the Security Council, are voting against the
:11:53. > :11:57.resolution is already an important development in itself. It just
:11:57. > :12:02.shows that not everybody agrees with the situation. Thirdly, if you
:12:02. > :12:08.look at the text of the resolution, it was not enforcible. The deadline
:12:08. > :12:16.was 21 days, it was impossible to achieve all the measures that were
:12:16. > :12:20.listed in that resolution, so the Russians thought that if that
:12:20. > :12:24.doesn't work, the next stage would be military interference. And the
:12:24. > :12:28.actual consequence, was, clearly, that the regime in Damascus, felt
:12:28. > :12:33.it had some how got diplomatic cover for the killing of innocent
:12:33. > :12:38.men, women and children? Let me ask you this, what would have happened
:12:38. > :12:42.if everybody turned against Assad's regime, do you imagine the
:12:42. > :12:47.desperation of these people in Damascus, you would have seen a
:12:47. > :12:52.slaughter. You would have seen the supporters of Assad turning into
:12:52. > :12:57.killing machines, because we already witnessed how desperate
:12:57. > :13:02.dictators and what they do. This is not something decided forever, this
:13:02. > :13:06.blockage of that resolution. The diplomatic process will continue,
:13:06. > :13:12.Sergei Lavrov is going there to continue that process. How does it
:13:12. > :13:17.look if you are a Syrian activist? Well, I think the Russian
:13:17. > :13:25.Government is taking this as an excuse, civil war is happening
:13:25. > :13:29.already in Syria. The supporters of the regime may blame the opposition
:13:29. > :13:35.for that, because the Syrian National Council has not come with
:13:35. > :13:41.a clear political programme to reassure the minorities, and that
:13:41. > :13:44.is very, very, people have been critical of that. Civil war may
:13:44. > :13:49.have happened already, because two armies are fighting against each
:13:49. > :13:54.other. It looks like civil war? looks like civil war, two armies
:13:54. > :13:58.fighting against each other, the soldiers are the ordinary Syrian
:13:58. > :14:07.people, and the civilians have been killed, so the Russian Government
:14:07. > :14:12.is making this an excuse for the arms market in Syria.
:14:12. > :14:17.With about the arms, by the way, it has been made by many commentators
:14:17. > :14:21.that Russia is providing the Syrian regime with weapons that are used
:14:21. > :14:25.against civilians. Unfortunately it is not the case. The weapons that
:14:25. > :14:29.are provided at the moment are anti-aircraft systems, anti-ship
:14:29. > :14:33.systems, you can't use those things against the civilian population.
:14:33. > :14:38.That is an important thing, to remember. But there are big
:14:38. > :14:43.interest, big Russian interests in Syria, Mark mentioned one of them,
:14:43. > :14:50.the naval base, the military base? Syria has been Russia's ally since
:14:50. > :14:57.the Soviet times, so what's unusual about that? It is that particular
:14:58. > :15:01.regime in Sir ia? It is the same, - - Syria? It is the same, I can say
:15:01. > :15:08.that America is supporting Saudi Arabia because it has been its ally
:15:08. > :15:10.for many years. And Saudi Arabia is not exactly a beacon of democracy.
:15:10. > :15:14.There are certain national and international interests and allies
:15:14. > :15:18.operating on different levels, but you can't just say that Russia has
:15:18. > :15:22.done this because it has a military base there, and it wants to keep
:15:22. > :15:26.Assad, whatever it takes. Russia wants diplomatic efforts to
:15:26. > :15:32.continue. If it didn't, Sergei Lavrov would not be going to
:15:32. > :15:36.Damascus. That is as simple as that. Any other solutions may lead to the
:15:36. > :15:41.same consequences, killing more civilians, and civil war,
:15:41. > :15:45.inflamming a civil war, any other options that we have at the moment,
:15:45. > :15:50.the UN Security Council have been too late to take any decision, any
:15:50. > :16:00.other options we have at the moment is inflamming civil war. So that
:16:00. > :16:05.
:16:05. > :16:10.isn't an excuse to be honest. there a Russian end game? China and
:16:10. > :16:14.Russia remember the end game of Libya, you may say it is a good
:16:14. > :16:20.development that Gaddafi is removed, but what we are seeing in Libya now
:16:20. > :16:26.is a revival of the civil war. The new powers are not exactly brimming
:16:26. > :16:29.with desire to support human rights and democracy. So, we don't really
:16:29. > :16:34.want a chain reaction like that going across the whole of the
:16:34. > :16:40.Middle East. I think it is very wise decision to let diplomacy work.
:16:40. > :16:46.You are on your own, aren't you? are, we have been left alone to
:16:46. > :16:54.face the machine of killing, it has been around 11 months and no-one is
:16:54. > :16:59.actually taking or acting in favour of the Syrian people. Russia is
:16:59. > :17:04.always blocking any. It is not just Russia, it is also China? Of course,
:17:04. > :17:09.but Russia is taking the lead. what sense? China has exactly the
:17:09. > :17:14.same position, it wants diplomacy to work? Now that Sergei Lavrov is
:17:14. > :17:18.going to Syria tomorrow, we will see what diplomatic solution he has
:17:18. > :17:23.got, and will act on that. Thank you very much.
:17:23. > :17:26.It is either a brilliant, decisive intervention, by one of the more
:17:26. > :17:31.recent appointments to the cabinet, or a political stunt
:17:31. > :17:35.significantfying nothing shrech. The bosses of -- significantfying
:17:35. > :17:39.nothing much. The bosses of Network Rail have decided to forego bonuses
:17:39. > :17:42.and spend the money on imgovernments to the rail. Which
:17:42. > :17:46.means the meeting to vote against isn't necessary, but was it all a
:17:46. > :17:56.got up drama. Before we ask the transport
:17:56. > :17:59.
:17:59. > :18:03.secretary we report. The game has the nation gripped,
:18:03. > :18:09.every contestant goes home empty handed, or lighter in the pocket.
:18:09. > :18:14.First there was Sir Philip Hamilton, and Stephen Hester from RBS, the
:18:14. > :18:18.Sun's headline a work of genius in itself.
:18:18. > :18:20.This week it is another of those strange, not quite private, not
:18:20. > :18:25.quite public operations, Network Rail. The a second has been trying
:18:25. > :18:29.to put pressure on the executive directors to give up their bonuses,
:18:29. > :18:34.and, well, plenty of people agree. I don't think it should be on the
:18:34. > :18:37.table for them. The chief executive is paid �560,000 a year, which my
:18:37. > :18:43.guess is he could probably about scrape by on. Last year Network
:18:43. > :18:46.Rail was found to be in breach of its license by the rail regulation,
:18:46. > :18:50.rail freight movements are suffering a 30% increase in delays,
:18:50. > :18:53.passenger trains haven't met the industry's own targets for
:18:53. > :19:02.pubgtality, there is no justification, at the moment,
:19:02. > :19:06.certainly, for rewarding that kind of performance. If you have been
:19:06. > :19:09.following the game at home, you will know what happens next is an
:19:09. > :19:13.enormous split kal spat between Labour and the Government over
:19:13. > :19:19.whether ministers have the power to veto the bonus.
:19:20. > :19:26.Simply by reading the articles of negotiation, we can see Network
:19:26. > :19:30.Rail can be pointed to the remuneration committee and give
:19:30. > :19:33.prior consent to changes. It amounts to a veto if the a second
:19:33. > :19:39.would choose to use it. According to the Department of Transfor the,
:19:39. > :19:45.ministers don't have the power to veto individual bonuses, consent is
:19:45. > :19:49.only needed if the overall incentive policy changes, which at
:19:49. > :19:55.Network Rail hasn't for years. But do these executives need
:19:55. > :19:58.bonuses at all to invent advise them? There is a real problem --
:19:58. > :20:02.incentivise them? There is a problem because the bonuses are
:20:02. > :20:06.around safety and the number of trains that are late. That all
:20:06. > :20:11.comes from external factors, one bad accident could upset the
:20:11. > :20:18.figures or snow, for example, that reduces their notional bonuses by a
:20:18. > :20:22.bit. That is nonsensical. Basically the rail industry is a boring u--
:20:22. > :20:25.utility, where people should do the same thing, day after day after day,
:20:25. > :20:29.and do it efficient low and effectively, that is not the
:20:30. > :20:35.culture where you need big bonuses to make people do the right thing.
:20:35. > :20:40.Network Rail bosses, then, had less wriggle room than commuters on the
:20:40. > :20:44.7.08, and not want to go replace RBS bosses in the public's
:20:44. > :20:47.affection, they decided they could probably do without the cash.
:20:47. > :20:50.Bosses at Network Rail have decided to go without their bonuses this
:20:50. > :20:55.year. Does all this mean that the Network
:20:55. > :21:01.Rail gravy train has come to a grinding halt? No, according toe
:21:01. > :21:06.one former transport minister. think -- According to one former
:21:06. > :21:10.transport minister? I think it is the end of bonuses, but there is a
:21:10. > :21:15.five-year plan for directors of Network Rail, which if they go
:21:16. > :21:19.through in the current form, will mean effectively a doubling of
:21:19. > :21:23.directors' and the chief executive's salary every year for
:21:23. > :21:26.five years. Every year for five years? It is a 100% increase for
:21:26. > :21:33.five years. That is still on the stable. The a second understands
:21:33. > :21:37.that is still on the table, she has asked them not to take it further
:21:37. > :21:42.until she publishes a command paper on the structure in two weeks time,
:21:42. > :21:49.it is still live. How does Network Rail justify their executive pay,
:21:49. > :21:59.they base it on the middle point for FTSE 100 companies' executive
:21:59. > :22:25.
:22:25. > :22:30.pay, why there? The company has an I don't think there is a great need
:22:30. > :22:36.to pay these people enormous sums of money, to do basically what is a
:22:36. > :22:40.fairly routine mundane job, on the whole.
:22:40. > :22:45.Thanks for playing Network Rail, can we have our next competitor
:22:45. > :22:55.please? The hot spot probably won't be empty for long.
:22:55. > :22:55.
:22:55. > :22:59.Earlier this evening I spoke to the Transport Secretary, Andy Green.
:22:59. > :23:03.Justine Greening, the people at Network Rail say the decision to
:23:03. > :23:08.forego their bonuses was taken last week. Did you know that? No, I was
:23:08. > :23:13.called by Matthew Higgins today, to be hold that -- David Higgins today
:23:13. > :23:16.to be told that decision. I think it is a sensible decision and one I
:23:16. > :23:19.welcome. If they did take the decision last week, all your
:23:19. > :23:24.anxiety and plans to go to the members' meeting would be just a
:23:24. > :23:28.stunt, wouldn't they? I don't think so, actually. That provision has
:23:28. > :23:32.been there ever since Network Rail was set up by the last Government.
:23:32. > :23:37.I think no Transport Secretary has ever tried to use it before. I
:23:37. > :23:41.thought it was important to stand up, frankly, for tax-payers, and
:23:41. > :23:45.their concerns about these bonuses, that is what I was quite prepared
:23:45. > :23:49.to do. Do you think your intervention was crucial to this
:23:49. > :23:53.decision which the Network Rail bosses say was taken last week?
:23:53. > :23:57.was a Network Rail decision, and you have to ask them about how they
:23:57. > :24:05.made the decision. Do you think your intervention made any
:24:05. > :24:10.difference at all? There was no doubt it was my job to stick up for
:24:10. > :24:13.tax-payers and fare payers, I have no doubt that Network Rail would
:24:13. > :24:17.have looked across that at the weekend, but it was a decision for
:24:17. > :24:21.them. And indeed a decision they say they took last week? You have
:24:21. > :24:25.made that point, and as I say, I think in terms of how Network Rail
:24:25. > :24:29.reach their decision, really you would be better off asking them. I
:24:29. > :24:33.was quite right to be prepared to stand up for tax-payers and fare
:24:33. > :24:37.payers. Do you think bonuses are ever legitimate in the public
:24:37. > :24:40.sector? It is perfectly fine to have an element of pay that is
:24:41. > :24:45.performance related, I think what people do want to see, though, is,
:24:45. > :24:49.first of all, for it to be administered fairly, secondly, it
:24:49. > :24:52.does have to relate to performance. The other thing they expect is a
:24:52. > :24:55.little bit of transparency and accountability. That has been
:24:55. > :24:59.lacking at Network Rail, and it is one of the things that I'm looking
:24:59. > :25:03.at tackling in the rail strategy paper that I'm finishing now. That
:25:03. > :25:07.is another reason why I felt the decision to go ahead with bonuses
:25:07. > :25:13.and Network Rail have now gone back on that, that this was simply not
:25:13. > :25:20.right time to do it. The policy apparently at Network Rail is
:25:20. > :25:23.remuneration is, "benchmarked to the median FTSE 100 company", is
:25:24. > :25:28.that appropriate? That is a question for Network Rail and their
:25:28. > :25:31.members. I'm asking you your opinion? My opinion is Network Rail
:25:31. > :25:34.ultimately need to take their own decision, alongside their members,
:25:34. > :25:38.on the appropriate pay and incentives package. The point I
:25:38. > :25:42.have been making over recent days, is I don't think that governance
:25:42. > :25:45.structure is in place for that to happen appropriately. That is one
:25:45. > :25:49.of the reasons why I was prepared to go to the general meeting that
:25:49. > :25:53.was happening this week, which has now been postponed, it is also one
:25:53. > :25:56.of the reasons why I was planning to strengthen Network Rail
:25:56. > :26:02.governance in the command paper coming out on rail reform over the
:26:02. > :26:07.next few weeks. You are more familiar than most with how Network
:26:07. > :26:12.Rail operates. It isn't like a FTSE 100 company, is it? Network Rail is
:26:12. > :26:20.a private company in the sense that it is there to run the track on
:26:20. > :26:24.which our trains operate. Could it go bust? Network Rail, ultimately,
:26:24. > :26:29.will run its organisation in a way that should deliver good taxpayer
:26:29. > :26:33.value for money. You won't let it go bust, would you? This is key to
:26:33. > :26:36.the comparison with the FTSE 100 companies correction it go bust?
:26:37. > :26:41.Network Rail is an independent of Government institution. Subsidised
:26:41. > :26:45.by the taxpayer? I don't think the question arises of it going bust, I
:26:45. > :26:50.think the key point is to make sure it is set up in a way. What people
:26:50. > :26:53.watching this will want to know, is it is not the finer detail of its
:26:53. > :26:59.balance sheet, the key point is whether Network Rail is set up in a
:26:59. > :27:02.way to enable it to deliver railway performance that I want to see,
:27:02. > :27:07.passengers and the public want to see. What we have seen over recent
:27:07. > :27:11.days is the fact in which bonuses and incentives were structured by
:27:11. > :27:15.the last Government, in terms of how that framework gets agreed. It
:27:15. > :27:21.is simply not strong enough to come out with the right sort of package
:27:21. > :27:25.to make sure the incentives are really there and responsibly there.
:27:25. > :27:30.That is precisely what I'm seeking to address. Can you tell us of one
:27:30. > :27:34.business in wit taxpayer has a substantial stake, in -- in which
:27:35. > :27:38.the taxpayer has a substantial stake, that you think bonuses would
:27:38. > :27:42.be appropriate? I have always said bonuses are appropriate if they
:27:42. > :27:46.relate to good performance. Can you give us an example of a good
:27:46. > :27:49.performance? I think at the end of the day if you look at Network Rail
:27:49. > :27:53.going forward, what we are trying to achieve with the rail strategy.
:27:53. > :27:57.That is an example of a company where you believe bonuses are not
:27:57. > :28:01.legitimate. I'm asking for an example where you think they are
:28:01. > :28:05.legitimate? It is not appropriate for me to comment across the piece.
:28:05. > :28:09.You think it is OK to comment on where they are not legitimate, when
:28:09. > :28:12.are they legitimate? It is not up to me to comment on other
:28:12. > :28:16.Government departments where I'm not in a position to say whether or
:28:16. > :28:19.not the bonus structures in place are appropriate. As Transport
:28:19. > :28:23.Secretary I can comment on Network Rail, that is what I have been
:28:23. > :28:26.prepared to do over the weekend. Most people would I think I took
:28:26. > :28:30.xablgtly the right stance, prepared to go -- exactly the right stance,
:28:30. > :28:34.to be prepared to go to the Annual General Meeting, to represent fare
:28:34. > :28:37.payers and tax-payers, and I'm pleased Network Rail have taken the
:28:37. > :28:41.decision they would not take the bonuses they planned, if they are
:28:41. > :28:47.due they will put them into improving level crossings. You set
:28:47. > :28:51.a precedent here. Can you give me an example of a single company,
:28:51. > :28:56.either within your department, or elsewhere, or getting tax-payers'
:28:56. > :28:59.money through your department or elsewhere, where you think bonuses
:28:59. > :29:04.are legitimate? I don't believe I have set a precedent, all I have
:29:04. > :29:08.done is simply used the provisions within the Network Rail governance
:29:08. > :29:12.structure, to make sure I stood up for tax-payers and fare payers,
:29:12. > :29:16.that was the right thing to do. The governance structure was there, the
:29:16. > :29:19.only difference is unlike the last Government who put it in place,
:29:19. > :29:23.they were never prepared use it. I actually was, that was the right
:29:23. > :29:27.thing to do. So you have set a precedent? I haven't set a
:29:27. > :29:32.precedent. The only precedent there is the fact I'm willing to use the
:29:32. > :29:35.mechanism already in place. What I'm saying is that mechanism was
:29:35. > :29:38.not strong enough within Network Rail, that is what we need to
:29:38. > :29:42.improve. Thank you.
:29:42. > :29:46.He apparently hates Jews, anyone who if he effects from Islam and
:29:46. > :29:50.Americans, he has been described as Osama Bin Laden's righthand man in
:29:50. > :29:54.Europe. He doesn't hate the west so much that he wants to leave it and
:29:54. > :30:00.return to the Middle East, instead, Abu Qatada has used European law to
:30:00. > :30:05.stay in this country. Which he entered illegally, and not to be
:30:05. > :30:09.sent to Jordan to stand trial. Despite the Home Office's view he's
:30:09. > :30:14.a very dangerous man, an immigration judge ruled he should
:30:14. > :30:19.be free from high-security prison. Talk us through what happened?
:30:19. > :30:24.cases make bad law. This is a hard case. Videos of Abu Qatada, to
:30:24. > :30:28.remind you, were found in the Hamburg apartment of some of the
:30:28. > :30:32.9/11 attackers, some of his sermons. He has been called Osama Bin
:30:32. > :30:37.Laden's righthand man in Europe, Al-Qaeda's spiritual leader in
:30:37. > :30:40.Europe, a truly dangerous individual, and a the most
:30:40. > :30:44.significant extremist preacher in the UK. Today it is decided he
:30:44. > :30:48.should be released from prison, where he has spent six-and-a-half
:30:48. > :30:53.years of the last ten years, because the judge said in the
:30:53. > :30:58.absence of any charge or allegation against him he can't be held any
:30:58. > :31:01.longer. The British Government want to extradite him back to Jordan,
:31:01. > :31:04.because there he faces terrorist offences, but the European Court of
:31:04. > :31:07.Human Rights last month ruled that couldn't happen, because the
:31:07. > :31:11.evidence against him in Gordon Brown may well have been obtained
:31:11. > :31:17.through torture, he has to stay. What have the British judges had to
:31:17. > :31:22.say about it? Three years ago in a landmark judge, Lord Philips, said
:31:22. > :31:28.the fact that the evidence against him in Jordan may have been
:31:28. > :31:33.obtained against him in torture was irrelevant, if he was a danger to
:31:33. > :31:40.national security he should be ejected. But today the immigration
:31:40. > :31:44.jurpblg, Lord Justice Mitting, ruled in the judge, Lord Justice
:31:44. > :31:47.Mitting ruled that, in favour of the European Court ruling, that he
:31:47. > :31:51.had to be released from house arrest by the end of this week. He
:31:51. > :31:56.also said that within three months f the Government hasn't settled
:31:56. > :32:01.with the Jordanians some means by which Qatada should be sent back to
:32:01. > :32:04.Jordan, he should be freed in the UK, without any strings attached.
:32:04. > :32:09.What happens now? The British Government have said that they are
:32:09. > :32:14.not happy about this. The Home Office say he will be bailed from
:32:14. > :32:18.the prison where he has been, within a week. The Home Office say
:32:18. > :32:23.they disagree with the decision, and say this is a dangerous man who
:32:23. > :32:26.poses a threat to security, and hasn't changed his views to the UK.
:32:26. > :32:32.They are considering their legal actions in response to the European
:32:32. > :32:36.Court's ruling. We're joined by Roger Smith a
:32:36. > :32:41.lawyer and director of justice, a campaign organisation involved with
:32:42. > :32:48.Abu Qatada's case. And by Douglas Murray, an author and associate
:32:48. > :32:51.director with the democracy Campaign Group, the Henry Jackson
:32:51. > :32:55.Society. Are you pleased this dangerous man is walking the
:32:55. > :33:00.street? I don't have a brief or act for Abu Qatada, but what should
:33:00. > :33:03.happen to him is due process. Two points, if he's as dangerous as was
:33:03. > :33:07.said and we have just been told, then he has committed offences in
:33:07. > :33:11.this country, and should be charged in the normal way. He never has
:33:11. > :33:15.been. Secondly, the real person should also be here is Jordan,
:33:15. > :33:19.there is a real problem, because the justice system in Jordan is not
:33:19. > :33:23.reliable. He has been convicted abroad, hasn't he? He has been
:33:23. > :33:27.convicted twice in Jordan. On the basis of evidence by two people who
:33:27. > :33:31.retracted it and said they had originally given their evidence
:33:31. > :33:35.under the influence of torture. you think we should just take a
:33:35. > :33:39.risk and let this bloke wander around this country? I think there
:33:39. > :33:42.is a clash of seeing the world as national states who have entire
:33:42. > :33:46.national control over what happens, and international norms of human
:33:46. > :33:50.rights. I think he should be dealt with according to norms of human
:33:50. > :33:54.rights. What do you think should happen to him? I think he should be
:33:54. > :33:59.returned to Jordan tomorrow. Despite the fact he might face
:33:59. > :34:04.trial, he could face risk himself, and face a trial where evidence
:34:04. > :34:07.could be produced that was obtained under torture? He won't face risk
:34:07. > :34:11.to himself. This country to considerable expense and amount of
:34:11. > :34:15.time under the Labour Government, sought a memrand dumb of
:34:15. > :34:19.understanding with Jordan, where he would not be mistreated in Jordan
:34:19. > :34:22.if he was tried there. It was only last month, the European Court of
:34:22. > :34:26.Human Rights for the first time cited article 6 on the right to a
:34:26. > :34:32.fair trial issue. Claiming it was an issue of whether or not people
:34:32. > :34:36.in the trial of Abu Qatada in Gordon Brown might themselves have
:34:36. > :34:40.been mistreated, that is why we are in the mess. The European Court of
:34:40. > :34:45.Human Rights kept on moving the goal posts, that is why we are here,
:34:45. > :34:49.they kept on doing that. It is not unusual for European states to
:34:49. > :34:53.simply significant nor the European Courts, it can't enforce the
:34:53. > :34:56.judgments. There is no reason why we can't do what Italy and France
:34:56. > :34:59.have done, ignore the courts. The day after the European Court would
:34:59. > :35:03.say, in a strongly-worded statement that they condemned the British
:35:03. > :35:08.Government for doing this. We could simply do what, as I say our allies
:35:08. > :35:12.have done on the continent and ignore the court. Why can't we do
:35:12. > :35:17.that? We believe in due process, and the Government does too. The
:35:17. > :35:22.issue is torture, what position do we as the UK take about torture.
:35:22. > :35:26.this is a ruling of the European Court of Human Rights, why not just
:35:26. > :35:29.ignore it? Because we signed up to the European convention. So have
:35:29. > :35:31.all the other countries? We are only the country that so completely
:35:31. > :35:35.runs by the letter of the law of the European Court. The European
:35:35. > :35:41.Court has shown repeated low that in cases of national security, it
:35:41. > :35:46.cannot have a -- repeatedly that in cases of national security, it
:35:46. > :35:50.cannot have countries like this and France and others having their best
:35:50. > :35:55.interests. In a case like this, making sure that Abu Qatada, who
:35:55. > :35:58.came to Britain illegally in 1993, on a forged UAE passport, is given
:35:58. > :36:02.every right that the European Court can invent, year after year,
:36:02. > :36:08.changing the goal posts, it is very God at that. What it is not good at
:36:08. > :36:12.doing, is securing, through its judgment, a genuinely fair process,
:36:12. > :36:17.to apart from anything else, ensure, that people in Britain do not have
:36:17. > :36:24.a known extremist, and a known hate monger, as somebody who has made a
:36:24. > :36:27.career, as the judgment said in 2007, who has such reach in his
:36:28. > :36:31.network that it is said it was incalculable. They said that in
:36:31. > :36:34.2007, and now because of the European Court and 2012, the man
:36:34. > :36:39.will walk the streets. You don't think we need to worry about due
:36:39. > :36:44.process and collecting proper evidence? We do, and this country
:36:44. > :36:48.has done everything it could to go through that due process. Thatth
:36:48. > :36:52.has gone to appeal in the laws and every court in the land, everything.
:36:52. > :36:56.The only thing is the European Court consistently has moved the
:36:56. > :37:02.goal posts over recent years and only last month, for the first time,
:37:02. > :37:08.used article 6, this new part. The issue was not whether he himself
:37:08. > :37:11.was mistreated if he went back to Jordan to face trial, it was
:37:11. > :37:16.whether any evidence used against him was obtained in that way.
:37:16. > :37:21.you not slightlym uncomfortable with our courts going by the rouls
:37:21. > :37:25.of a foreign court and judgment, to protect a man who advocates killing
:37:25. > :37:29.people? It is not an easy case, and you can't make an easy judgment.
:37:29. > :37:32.What the European Court has done, is consistently drawn a bright line
:37:32. > :37:36.around torture, saying Article Three prevents it and complicity
:37:36. > :37:39.with it. It has extended the meaning of that, so you cannot
:37:39. > :37:42.throw somebody back to another country, where he will there is a
:37:42. > :37:46.reasonable chance he will this be torture. I think that is right. It
:37:46. > :37:51.isn't true to say, it isn't true that we are the only country that
:37:51. > :37:55.complies with it. Sweden, the whole Scandinavian countries, the
:37:55. > :38:00.countries of the Council of Europe comply. Do you think the countries
:38:00. > :38:03.signing up to this court, that don't abide by the rulings?
:38:04. > :38:06.repeat offenders are Russia and Turkey, I would like to be a
:38:06. > :38:11.citizen of a country that is different from that and accepts the
:38:11. > :38:14.due process. We signed up to the court, we should obey to it.
:38:14. > :38:17.Neither France nor Italy are barbaric countries that don't
:38:17. > :38:21.expect the rule of law. They respect the rule of law, but they
:38:21. > :38:25.also respect the fact that Italian and French citizens have the right
:38:25. > :38:29.not to have people like Abu Qatada walking in their midst. Why not
:38:29. > :38:33.leave the court f it is such a problem? That is one of the problem,
:38:33. > :38:37.if the coalition Government were to do what David Cameron said he would
:38:37. > :38:40.like to do before the election, and remove ourselves from the
:38:40. > :38:44.convention and the jurisdiction of the court. Another option is when
:38:44. > :38:47.they come up with completely bonkers judgments, as they have
:38:47. > :38:51.repeatedly with Qatada, is to ignore them. The other is to do
:38:51. > :38:55.what we are currently doing, is to be very British about it, following
:38:55. > :38:59.the complete letter of the law, to an extent no other country does,
:38:59. > :39:03.and do what the main allies on the country don't do it. He says it is
:39:03. > :39:07.not no other countries, the Scandinavian companies? No other
:39:07. > :39:12.countries with a figure like Abu Qatada, has gone to this length to
:39:12. > :39:18.protect him. No other country has gone that far. Italy and France are
:39:18. > :39:23.not backward countries f they can disobey the European Court and get
:39:23. > :39:28.an understand pleasant splap on the wrist, we could do that, and Abu
:39:28. > :39:36.Qatada would be facing trial in Jordan, with a memoranda, meaning
:39:36. > :39:42.he wouldn't face bad treatment. is madness to say leave the Council
:39:42. > :39:48.of Europe, that wo mean the same as Belarus, only if you go to Belarus
:39:48. > :39:51.do you leave the countries of the koum of Europe. It is madness --
:39:51. > :39:55.countries -- Council of Europe. It is madness to say that. We go
:39:55. > :39:58.around the world bringing human rights, sometimes at the point of a
:39:58. > :40:08.gun, it is ridiculous to say also we shouldn't follow decisions of
:40:08. > :40:12.
:40:12. > :40:18.the court. Mariana Mazzucato is in town, --
:40:18. > :40:22.He has had a big influence on other stand-up comedians, he's now 75,
:40:22. > :40:32.this is expected to be one of his very last tours unless there is
:40:32. > :40:40.
:40:40. > :40:46.I have a date with comedy legend, Paul Mason, Jacky Mason, he says
:40:46. > :40:49.this will be his farewell set of dates in the UK, he's 75. Unless I
:40:49. > :40:54.want to buy something, that is a different problem, that is a joke.
:40:54. > :40:58.I like it. In this country I have socialised medicine, in the United
:40:58. > :41:03.States every doctor is a crook. I tell them to their faces and every
:41:03. > :41:07.show I do on Broadway, I call them coox, they are not insults. --
:41:07. > :41:13.crooks. They are not insults in the United States, you know why? They
:41:13. > :41:19.know their crooks. Why do you think he wears a mask when he operates,
:41:19. > :41:23.he don't want to see you what he's doing. The used to be full-time
:41:23. > :41:29.rabbi has played to full houses throughout the UK, including the
:41:29. > :41:32.London Palladium. What I'm most proud of is I keep
:41:32. > :41:37.winning awards in the United States for getting the biggest amount of
:41:37. > :41:41.laughs in a single show. I have gotten that award seven years in a
:41:41. > :41:46.row from that society, that judges and counts laughs per show. What do
:41:46. > :41:49.you put it down to? Desperately hard work, and an amazing amount of
:41:49. > :41:57.talent. That must be the answer. And the fact that the other people
:41:57. > :42:03.are not so hot, that also helps. Ahead of his latest and last run in
:42:03. > :42:06.the West End, Mason gave me a comedy masterclass on the
:42:06. > :42:11.storyboards of the wind ham theatre. If there is some kind of insult in
:42:11. > :42:17.the joke, I make sure I don't tell it. Are you king of the world here,
:42:17. > :42:25.are you wooing the audience, what is the idea? The idea is I'm the
:42:25. > :42:30.boss because I'm here. I don't try to dominate an audience, but I try
:42:30. > :42:39.to involve them as much as possible in what I'm saying. I'm creating a
:42:39. > :42:44.sense of warmth, of intmcy. -- Intimacy. On the 60th
:42:44. > :42:49.anniversary of the Queen's accession, he recounted his own
:42:50. > :42:53.encounters with the royal box. came over and thanked me for the
:42:53. > :42:57.show, I said I appreciate you thanking me so much, that is kind
:42:57. > :43:03.of you. I noticed she started to talk like me. No, she started to
:43:03. > :43:10.talk like you? As I'm thanking her, she says thank you very much, and
:43:10. > :43:16.then she says, I tell you the truth, it wasn't that great, but an
:43:16. > :43:20.exceptional show, to be honest with you. I started to talk like an
:43:20. > :43:24.Englishman to be polite, I said thatch I appreciate it t she said,
:43:24. > :43:32.that's OK, don't worry about it. I said to myself, thank God, I turned
:43:32. > :43:38.the Queen into a Jewish lady. Jackie, I know it is unfair, you
:43:38. > :43:41.have just got off the plane, you need to acclimatise. What can a
:43:41. > :43:49.British audience look forward to, are you doing anything about us?
:43:49. > :43:54.Everyone I came here tell me the same story, about this MP who got a
:43:54. > :43:59.traffic ticket when he was riding with his woif, and she claimed that
:43:59. > :44:04.she was the one driving, then they found out he was driving not her,
:44:04. > :44:13.because he started to go out with another girl. Allegedly, it is all
:44:13. > :44:22.spending in the courts? I know it is all allegeded. Thank you for
:44:22. > :44:26.saying it? I'm not doing the show, a news programme has to say alleged.
:44:26. > :44:30.I want to be the only one who shows respect to your Prime Minister, and
:44:30. > :44:35.the only guy today that won't call him a liar, a fake a fraud and
:44:35. > :44:38.phoney, as far as I'm concerned he's an honest man, and I thought
:44:38. > :44:42.Clinton was honest. Why are you suggesting this might be your
:44:42. > :44:47.foinal appearance over here, is this really true -- final
:44:47. > :44:52.appearance over here? Is this really true? When I say it is the
:44:52. > :44:57.final tour, I'm 100% true, that doesn't mean if you give me
:44:57. > :45:01.�100,000 I won't tell you a joke. I will tell you a joke for the right
:45:01. > :45:11.price. That's it, Jackie Mason appearing in London. The Financial
:45:11. > :45:40.