:00:10. > :00:13.Tonight, the Greek Government inches towards 130 billion euro
:00:13. > :00:16.deal to secure a crucial second bailout. But the protesters on the
:00:16. > :00:19.streets of Athens tonight are not buying it.
:00:19. > :00:23.What of other European countries like Germany, who have to stump up.
:00:23. > :00:31.We will be speaking to Angela Merkel's Chief Whip, and a Greek
:00:31. > :00:36.Government minister. The Syrian rebels in Homs claim
:00:36. > :00:40.Assad's bombardment, now in the sixth day, has cost dozens more
:00:40. > :00:43.lives. Is arming the rebels a serious plan.
:00:43. > :00:47.The military logic of this struggle is playing itself out on Syria's
:00:47. > :00:51.streets, I will be looking at what the rebels might achieve, and what
:00:51. > :00:55.help they need most. Fabio gets a golden goodbye, the
:00:55. > :00:59.next man to shoulder the nation's dreams will cost millions. Is money
:00:59. > :01:03.killing the game? �50 million, I think, last year,
:01:03. > :01:09.was spent on a player purchased by Chelsea. What is wrong with that if
:01:09. > :01:14.you can afford it? It is ridiculous. The game cannot afford it. In work
:01:14. > :01:18.but on benefit, the supermarkets create jobs but not on a living
:01:18. > :01:21.wage. Is it time for big business to stake the strain from tax-payers.
:01:21. > :01:31.I don't think for me in my situation, actually going out to
:01:31. > :01:33.
:01:33. > :01:37.work does actually pay. Good evening. Beware of Greeks
:01:37. > :01:43.bearing news of a done deal on reforms and austerity measures
:01:43. > :01:46.which would clinch the new bailout of 130 billion euros. A deal that
:01:46. > :01:50.becomes more urgent by the minute, as the country can't make its
:01:50. > :01:53.repayments due in March without it, and is tonight being put forward in
:01:54. > :01:57.front of the EU finance ministers. The German Finance Minister said
:01:57. > :02:00.this afternoon that the Greek deal was not at a stage where it could
:02:00. > :02:03.be signed out. But Greece's political leadership, who have set
:02:03. > :02:08.a course of a big fall in living standards for most Greeks have a
:02:08. > :02:11.fight on their hands. Already the two major labour unions have called
:02:11. > :02:15.a 48-hour strike from tomorrow. What is the significance of the
:02:15. > :02:19.deal now tonight? I think it is a fork in the road. It means Greece
:02:19. > :02:22.has finally delivered what has been asked of it, since that October EU
:02:22. > :02:27.summit where it all began to go wrong for the international
:02:27. > :02:32.authorities. But if you look at the size of it, the three billion it
:02:32. > :02:36.has delivered overnight, a 20% cut in the minimum wage. What it adds
:02:36. > :02:41.up to, one analyst sent a note from one of the banks saying this, up to
:02:41. > :02:44.now Greece has cut back, fiscal austerity to the tune of 16% of its
:02:44. > :02:49.GDP in three years, what it has just signed up to will take it, by
:02:49. > :02:53.the end of this year, to 25% cutbacks. Now, there are two
:02:53. > :02:56.problems with it, one is technically, is it possible to do.
:02:56. > :03:00.Because despite the fact that they have signed up to it and gone to
:03:00. > :03:04.Brussels with it, one person inside the Greek Government told me this
:03:04. > :03:09.tonight, it will pass through the parliament, but it's not convincing,
:03:09. > :03:13.it lacks a strategy of how this country can get out of this misery.
:03:13. > :03:17.Because the European authorities know that's what most of the Greek
:03:17. > :03:21.politicians think, they have built in this trigger that says if you do
:03:21. > :03:25.fail to implement it, technically, because the tax take runs out, or
:03:25. > :03:29.there is a run on the banks, we can pull the whole thing any way. It
:03:29. > :03:33.gives the Greeks from tonight the trigger, where as the Europeans
:03:33. > :03:38.have had the trigger. So political obstacles to this? Massive, you
:03:38. > :03:43.have seen it on the streets already. We have seen the slightly more wide,
:03:43. > :03:49.populist course for things like uprising. Again, it is the fact
:03:49. > :03:57.that, at the heart of the political situation now there are unknown
:03:57. > :04:02.actors, unknown fact ors, rather, in the street, on the parliament,
:04:02. > :04:05.can the politicians who have signed up, who are a minority in the polls
:04:05. > :04:08.at the moment. The entire political establishment is in the minority,
:04:08. > :04:12.can they take their people with them, as local council after
:04:12. > :04:16.council loses to the opposition parties, who are at the right and
:04:16. > :04:19.left extremes of politics. Thank you. We will unpick some of that
:04:19. > :04:22.right now. Joining me from Athens is the Greek minister for
:04:22. > :04:32.international, sorry, your film starts before that. I have a slight
:04:32. > :04:37.summary of what the deal is. The new Greek bailout deals imposes
:04:37. > :04:41.three billion euro of cuts from a country already realing from them.
:04:41. > :04:44.They should get 130 billion in new loans and 100 billion euros of debt
:04:45. > :04:49.held by banks and pension funds, should be written off. Because the
:04:49. > :04:52.Greek economy is shrinking as a result of austerity, they now need
:04:52. > :04:58.more. The proposal is, for the European Central Bank to take
:04:58. > :05:03.losses on the value of its Greek debts, maybe up to 15 billion euros,
:05:03. > :05:07.bridging the gap. So has Greece done enough? Well,
:05:07. > :05:12.the and r action moved to Brussels tonight, action may be too strong a
:05:12. > :05:15.word, because the German Finance Minister was still lukewarm.
:05:15. > :05:19.TRANSLATION: The negotiations have come a long way, but still not far
:05:19. > :05:27.enough. You don't need to wait around, because there will be no
:05:27. > :05:32.decision tonight. In Athens, protest, with a strike to begin
:05:32. > :05:37.tomorrow, and calls from the increasing ly popular leftist
:05:37. > :05:40.parties in politics, for pass mass resistance. TRANSLATION: This crime
:05:40. > :05:46.being committed against the Greek people, against the country, cannot
:05:46. > :05:51.be allowed to come to pass. The bankruptcy programme will not pass.
:05:51. > :05:54.The famous Greek riot dog has been quiet lately, but a showdown is
:05:54. > :05:58.coming. On Sunday the Greek parliament will vote on the deal,
:05:58. > :06:00.after that comes the task of quantifying the actual losses to
:06:00. > :06:09.actual banks, not all are yet signed up.
:06:09. > :06:15.And by the 20th of March, when Greece needs 14 billion euros, the
:06:15. > :06:19.bailout money has to be delivered. And the great unanswered question
:06:19. > :06:23.after that, can Greek Saturday bear it, and can the parties, who signed
:06:23. > :06:27.the deal today deliver it, as the upcoming election gives their
:06:27. > :06:34.voters a say? Joining me now from Athens is the
:06:34. > :06:38.Greek minister for international economic relations, Panos
:06:38. > :06:45.Papanicolaou, and the Chief Whip -- Lucas Papademos, and the Chief Whip
:06:45. > :06:49.from the German parliament. You heard what was said there, it is
:06:50. > :06:57.very doubtful you can deliver this? Good evening, can we actually
:06:57. > :07:06.deliver this, is that the question? Yes. Yes. It is a very, very tough
:07:06. > :07:12.endeavour what we are in now, since May 2010. We're called upon to
:07:12. > :07:17.transform the whole economy, from an inward looking, non-competitive
:07:17. > :07:24.economy, to an outward looking extrovert competitive economy, that
:07:24. > :07:30.requires massive transformations. One of the collateral side-effects
:07:30. > :07:35.is precisely this contraction in income. Before the economy gets on
:07:35. > :07:39.its feet again on a different basis. Do you also think that it is
:07:39. > :07:44.possible to do this with the level of protest that is starting to
:07:44. > :07:49.build, calls from big cultural heros in Greece for a resistance
:07:49. > :07:55.movement to this deal? I think you will hear all kind of things, one
:07:55. > :08:00.has to see what the vast majority of people feel in their hearts. In
:08:00. > :08:05.their hearts they are aching, but they also know that something has
:08:05. > :08:11.to change. Otherwise, we won't be able to get out of this predicament,
:08:11. > :08:17.and unless we make the sacrifices. I think this is quite plain for all
:08:17. > :08:20.to see. We heard from Germany's Finance Minister a moment ago, that
:08:20. > :08:25.they didn't think the deal was at a stage where it could be called a
:08:25. > :08:29.deal, what is your view? We are living in critical hours and
:08:29. > :08:34.moments, we are negotiating very constructively, in order to achieve
:08:34. > :08:39.a deal, the deal is not yet achieved, because we have to see,
:08:40. > :08:44.and what we have to have is a proof of sustainability, a proof of
:08:44. > :08:48.reliability. The Greek parliament on Sunday will vote on all this,
:08:48. > :08:52.and we believe it is in the interests of the Greek people to
:08:52. > :08:58.have clear facts, and on the basis of these facts, we are prepared to
:08:58. > :09:02.grant another bailout of 130 billion euros. That is probably the
:09:02. > :09:06.biggest bailout in European history. A lot of that will be shouldered by
:09:06. > :09:10.Germany, and German people know that. When they see the level of
:09:10. > :09:13.protests in Greece, and when they see the dangers that you are asking
:09:13. > :09:17.people to take, the cut in living standards and it might not work,
:09:18. > :09:24.what do the German people, on the streets, think of this? There is a
:09:24. > :09:31.lot of sympathy. In Germany, for the feelings of Greek pensioners
:09:31. > :09:34.and workers in the streets, on the other hand, groz is now confronted
:09:34. > :09:39.with a challenge that -- Greece is now confronted with a challenge
:09:39. > :09:46.that was the case in the UK, in the Netherlands, in Germany, years ago.
:09:46. > :09:53.We are very confident that at the end of this very, very difficult
:09:53. > :09:58.process, the Greek people will say it was worse, - it was worth
:09:58. > :10:02.sacrificing social benefits in order to achieve a more competitive
:10:02. > :10:06.economy. This is what German people believe. We are prepared to provide
:10:06. > :10:12.support, financial support, but we want to make sure it is effective
:10:12. > :10:17.and not lost. I will put that straight back in a
:10:17. > :10:21.minute. Just before we finish with you on that point, 130 billion
:10:21. > :10:31.euros, are you confident this would be the last bailout, there wouldn't
:10:31. > :10:31.
:10:31. > :10:36.be another bailout? It is the second bailout, as you know. We
:10:36. > :10:41.have a monitoring process that has been set up, with the International
:10:41. > :10:46.Monetary Fund, the European Central Bank, and the European Commission.
:10:46. > :10:51.This monitoring process is adjusted every time, but now we are talking
:10:51. > :10:57.about private sector involvement, we are talking about the second
:10:58. > :11:03.bailout. I'm confident that markets will believe us and markets will
:11:03. > :11:08.react on us, and that will mean that Greece has a chance with this
:11:08. > :11:13.bailout to overcome the crisis. But month by month you are going to
:11:13. > :11:17.have to prove that you are on track to deliver this. But you have an
:11:17. > :11:20.election in April, so it could, you might only get to April and find
:11:20. > :11:24.that actually you cannot deliver this, there is not enough money on
:11:24. > :11:27.the streets, apart from anything else, people's fall in living
:11:27. > :11:33.standards, people can't even make their bank payments, it just
:11:33. > :11:37.physically might not work. First of all, we don't know when
:11:37. > :11:43.the next election will be. I know there are rumour about April, but
:11:43. > :11:49.let's not bank on it, we don't know yet. But, the whole point of this
:11:49. > :11:55.funding is precisely to enable the state to function and to pay out
:11:55. > :11:58.salaries and pensions et cetera. So the scenario you just described is
:11:58. > :12:02.exactly what we are trying to avoid through this assistance we are
:12:02. > :12:07.receiving from our partners. But you need to get that signed off
:12:07. > :12:16.very, very quickly, don't you? Because if you default in March,
:12:16. > :12:22.then you are in trouble? Well, last night, as you know, there was a
:12:22. > :12:27.deal with the Greek Government and the called troika, I mean, what we
:12:27. > :12:32.need now is to get it through the eurozone finance ministers, but it
:12:32. > :12:37.has been cleared by their representatives in the EU, in the
:12:37. > :12:40.ECB and the European Commission and the IMF, of course. We're on the
:12:40. > :12:45.right track. We will wait to see what happens tomorrow, thank you
:12:45. > :12:48.very much gentlemen. The Foreign Secretary, William
:12:48. > :12:52.Hague, has described President Assad's rule as the murdering
:12:52. > :12:55.regime, blunt words, which will be heard by the people of Homs under
:12:55. > :13:01.attack from Syrian forces for the sixth day in a row. What the rebels
:13:01. > :13:04.want is weapons not words. That was explicitly ruled out by the Foreign
:13:04. > :13:09.Secretary, though he added, we don't control what other countries
:13:09. > :13:13.are doing. Has the pressure been kept up on
:13:13. > :13:17.the opposition, the military pressure been kept up on the
:13:17. > :13:22.opposition? It has been another very tough day. We have assembled a
:13:22. > :13:27.whole series of maps and images here to look at the picture in
:13:27. > :13:32.detail. The reports today suggest anything between 60-11 people have
:13:32. > :13:37.died in the vie -- 60-100 people have died in the violence today.
:13:37. > :13:44.Around two-thirds of the fatalities, in and around the area of Homs, the
:13:44. > :13:49.real centre of the battle, if we look in detail. It is a protested
:13:49. > :13:56.city, not a besieged city, President Assad's supporters are in
:13:56. > :14:03.the yellow areas, the opposition have two main areas in the city the
:14:04. > :14:07.two in the blue circles. Again, two districts, Baba Amr is one of them.
:14:07. > :14:11.The second area is where our colleague was a couple of days
:14:11. > :14:16.earlier this week. The fighting has very much raged around those two
:14:16. > :14:20.areas. The Government forces, the 90th Infantry Brigade of the Syrian
:14:20. > :14:25.army, hold some positions in the centre of the town, but their main
:14:26. > :14:31.bases are at an intersection on the motorway to the south, where they
:14:31. > :14:34.have dozens of armoured vehicles and the vehicles that have been
:14:34. > :14:38.shelling over recent days. We understand the defectors from the
:14:38. > :14:42.army and guerrilla fighters in those areas, have gone out into the
:14:42. > :14:46.rural areas, fearing a Government ground push, but it hasn't happened.
:14:46. > :14:52.That is fascinating. That suggests something about the relative co-
:14:52. > :14:57.relation of forces there. That 90th brigade may be several thousand
:14:57. > :15:04.troops. Syrian security forces total perhaps 20,000 in the city,
:15:04. > :15:09.population of Homs, 800,000. They are, if you like, in an Alamo
:15:09. > :15:12.mentality, not a conquering mentality. In the neighbourhoods
:15:12. > :15:16.where there is most resistance and where Assad wants to make his
:15:16. > :15:20.presence felt, how has the army been dealing with the opposition?
:15:20. > :15:25.With a difficult situation the army has with regards to its own morale,
:15:25. > :15:29.but the advantages it has, with its heavy weapons, it has tried to use
:15:29. > :15:34.its advantages. If we go in even closer to Baba Amr, this main
:15:34. > :15:36.thorough fare marks one of the boundaries of that neighbourhood.
:15:36. > :15:42.We will put that spot around the mosque.
:15:42. > :15:45.You wouldn't think that if you had a modern self-propelled gun or
:15:45. > :15:55.artillery system that won the target or the house next door to it,
:15:55. > :15:55.
:15:55. > :15:59.but look at this. That happened yesterday, the
:15:59. > :16:03.shelling of a house. The opposition say it is a terrifying tactic to
:16:03. > :16:06.keep people off the streets, scare the fighters out to the surrounding
:16:06. > :16:10.countryside, to an extent it has worked. Another example these
:16:10. > :16:13.armoured vehicles moving up the streets. Pictures taken yesterday,
:16:13. > :16:17.firing off machine guns indiscriminately, apparently.
:16:17. > :16:21.Another fascinating sign of what is going on. Neither the drivers nor
:16:21. > :16:24.the commanders seem to have their heads out of the vehicle, I have
:16:24. > :16:28.noticed this with much of the footage coming out of Syria in
:16:28. > :16:35.recent months, of when these vehicles go into contested
:16:35. > :16:38.neighbourhoods. Is it still going on in Homs? It is, the Syrian army
:16:38. > :16:42.does have advantages, but the morale is fragile, it is vulnerable
:16:43. > :16:46.to some of the weapons that defectors and arms suppliers have
:16:46. > :16:50.sent in. The standard rocket propelled grenade, if we look at
:16:50. > :16:54.the next image, in the centre of the round about, you see one of the
:16:54. > :16:59.armoured vehicles. The man with a broom is keeping a lookout, he goes
:16:59. > :17:05.to tell his friend, the coast is clear. Apart from a van that
:17:05. > :17:07.quickly flashes across, it is, he lets fire with an RPG and hits the
:17:07. > :17:12.armoured vehicle. Now we don't know exact low what happened there,
:17:12. > :17:17.whether it might have already been disabled. But let's look on at some
:17:17. > :17:22.of the other images out of Homs in the last few days. We can see quite
:17:22. > :17:27.a lot of burnt out Syrian army vehicles. The police car in the
:17:27. > :17:33.foreground, one of the same vehicles, a BNP, a Russian-made
:17:33. > :17:36.infantry carrier, we have seen it a few times, the roof blown off,
:17:36. > :17:41.internal explosions, it has either been knocked out or set on fire by
:17:41. > :17:46.its own crew. The Syrian army is losing vehicles going into those
:17:46. > :17:54.neighbourhoods and troops, either by dissertation or casualties.
:17:54. > :18:00.Another infantry carrier there, it came a cropper. Not all tanks are
:18:00. > :18:07.vulnerable to the RPG. The army can apply all sorts of tactics. This
:18:07. > :18:10.one, the T-72, these workss on the side of it are proof against
:18:10. > :18:14.exactly that kind of weapon. There are things they can't defeat. The
:18:14. > :18:18.supply of anti-tank weapons they have is limited, there are basic
:18:18. > :18:23.challenges of organisation. What do they need, we asked brigadier Ben
:18:23. > :18:33.Barry. If I was a rebel commander I would be asking for two things. One
:18:33. > :18:38.is some weapons that would enable me to deal with the vehicles.
:18:38. > :18:43.Secondly is equipment to help me communicate with other rebel
:18:43. > :18:46.military outlets, but also to allow the political elements to
:18:46. > :18:49.communicate securely, in order to better co-ordinate actions. It is
:18:49. > :18:53.about different things, it is about communications and also about
:18:53. > :18:57.weapons to hit armoured vehicles, they have, to an extent, we have
:18:57. > :19:02.RPGs, what else do they need, and where will they get it? If one
:19:02. > :19:05.looks at the Libyan model, if you like. We know that the UK, France
:19:05. > :19:08.and Qatar, put great effort into trying to organise, provide the
:19:08. > :19:13.level of organisation, giving satellite phones, giving coaching
:19:13. > :19:18.or mentoring to the leaders of the Libyan army, opposition forces, to
:19:18. > :19:23.get them to raise their game. To behave, in a co-ordinated fashion.
:19:23. > :19:27.In Syria, it is not happening yet, from the UK and French side, there
:19:27. > :19:32.are reports that Qatar and Saudi Arabia are already putting in an
:19:32. > :19:36.effort. It would seem that weapons are being bought in Lebanon, on the
:19:36. > :19:41.arms black market, and are finding their way through. We have seen
:19:41. > :19:46.certain evidence of things like RPGs, sniper rifles, one or two
:19:46. > :19:56.things. They could go a stage further up. The Qataris are thought
:19:56. > :19:59.to have supplied anti-tank weapons to the Libyans, and they could go
:19:59. > :20:02.that to the Syrians, they are a much bigger and more destructive
:20:02. > :20:07.warhead. All the other things we have been talking about as well.
:20:07. > :20:10.Command and control, radios, secure communications, all those kinds of
:20:10. > :20:14.things. You get the sense from William Hague today, there is no
:20:14. > :20:17.question, apart from anything else without a UN resolution, there is
:20:17. > :20:21.no question Britain will do anything, communications is
:20:21. > :20:25.different, but no weaponry? The UK has always found this type of thing
:20:25. > :20:35.extremely hard. We saw it in the Balkan wars in the 1990s, there
:20:35. > :20:39.were demands again and again and again, to arm the boss Bosnian
:20:39. > :20:43.Herridge army, Britain -- Bosnian army, Britain was always again that.
:20:43. > :20:48.We saw it again in Libya, France and Qatar was prepared to provide
:20:48. > :20:53.weapons and the UK was not. William Hague reminded us of that today. It
:20:53. > :20:56.is not an option that the UK wants. Even France, less restrained in
:20:56. > :21:00.Libya, it has certain legal difficulties, I would imagine,
:21:00. > :21:03.because of the EU arms embargo on Syria now. There are all sorts of
:21:03. > :21:09.obstacles, technical, military and legal, to making this happen.
:21:09. > :21:14.Particularly to making it happen quickly. From Fabio Capello's
:21:14. > :21:19.financial send-off to HMRC's spectacular failure in the case
:21:19. > :21:26.against Harry Redknapp, for millions of pounds for players, to
:21:26. > :21:34.endlessly fleesing fans for merchandise. In football nothing is
:21:34. > :21:37.cheap. Has the beautiful game become the tainted game. Everybody
:21:37. > :21:40.likes Harry, he could be king of England, but will probably settle
:21:40. > :21:50.for manager, his good character, unstained. There are wider concerns
:21:50. > :21:53.
:21:53. > :21:57.about the sport in which he thrives. Former owner of Harry's current
:21:57. > :22:01.club, Tottenham, has been making that point for years. What is wrong
:22:01. > :22:05.is the quantum of the money, the amount of money spent on players,
:22:05. > :22:09.�50 million last year was spent on a player purchased by Chelsea.
:22:09. > :22:13.is wrong with that if you can afford it? It is ridiculous, the
:22:13. > :22:18.game cannot afford it. That particular club can afford it,
:22:18. > :22:23.because of its owner. But even the poorest Premier League clubs taking
:22:23. > :22:28.�35 million a season from TV rights, the richest getting �60 million,
:22:28. > :22:34.revenues are up again to �2 billion. Yet overall the clubs are losing
:22:34. > :22:41.more than ever, �445 million. It is largely because they are playing
:22:41. > :22:45.the -- paying the players �1.4 billion a season. 20-odd years ago,
:22:45. > :22:49.John Barnes, Player of the Year, was earning �10,000 a week,
:22:49. > :22:53.staggering then. Values then became so distorted, that when Ashley Cole
:22:53. > :22:57.left Arsenal, it was because they offered him only a weekly �55,000.
:22:57. > :23:04.This, he told his fans, was taking the piss. Some Premier League stars
:23:04. > :23:07.today are getting �200,000 a week. Football's finances are crazy. So
:23:07. > :23:11.what's new? What has changed is the ever-growing marketisation of the
:23:11. > :23:16.game, and the widening gulf with its traditional support. It used to
:23:16. > :23:19.be the working man's ballet, now football is far pricier than a trip
:23:19. > :23:24.to covenant garden. While the police have been raiding managers'
:23:24. > :23:28.homes at dawn, and the revenue prosecuting, some see the real
:23:28. > :23:32.scandal elsewhere. Recently I did some figures and found at Liverpool,
:23:32. > :23:37.where it was their fans who suffered in the Hillsborough
:23:37. > :23:43.disaster, which created the improvements in the stadiums, their
:23:43. > :23:48.prices have increased 1100% on the Cop, it now costs �45 a ticket on
:23:48. > :23:52.the Cop to watch oneer games. Yet we have this idea that it is
:23:52. > :23:57.corrupt, and we are looking for bungs, something really precise, we
:23:57. > :24:01.are looking for tax evasion, where as, in fact, there is a broader
:24:01. > :24:05.corruption of the concept of sport and of the ideal of football.
:24:05. > :24:09.don't think there is any particular exploitation going on. I have been
:24:10. > :24:15.a football supporter all my life, I'm prepared to pay the price it
:24:15. > :24:20.takes to have, to witness a game, to see a spectacle that has a
:24:20. > :24:25.stronger desire for myself and other football fans. You can afford
:24:25. > :24:29.it, Paul? And that continues to be a good strong level of support,
:24:29. > :24:33.across the country, not just in the Premier League, among lower
:24:33. > :24:38.divisions, attendances are higher than they have been since World War
:24:38. > :24:44.II. So while the prices rise, the excesses will go on.
:24:44. > :24:47.The ill-judged Redknapp prosecution was a hangover from HM Revenue &
:24:47. > :24:50.Customs failed bungs investigations of the past decade, they have had a
:24:50. > :24:54.bad week. Behind the scenes, it is argued the revenue have sharpened
:24:54. > :24:59.their act, quietly enforcing settlements on players and clubs,
:25:00. > :25:04.and getting their taxes. Lord Sugar, bruised but unbowed by his years in
:25:04. > :25:09.football, says law breaking is no longer the problem. The problem is
:25:09. > :25:14.greed. What's changed in the past few years that there is no more
:25:14. > :25:19.illegal action, illegal stuff going on. You know, with players being
:25:19. > :25:27.paid incorrectly and all that type of thing. You don't think so?
:25:27. > :25:32.no, no. HMRC have got so hot on this, that any owner of a football
:25:32. > :25:40.club has to be stupid or lived in among goalia, for the past five
:25:40. > :25:43.years, -- Mongolia, for the past five years! I would say it is the
:25:43. > :25:47.cleanest industry at the moment. Because they are watched so
:25:47. > :25:54.closely? Absolutely. Vigilence from the taxpayer, and fresh eyes from
:25:54. > :25:57.UEFA, their new financial fair play rules say clubs will have to break
:25:57. > :26:01.even season upon season, transgressors could be banned from
:26:01. > :26:06.lucrative European competition. Does it have teeth, or lake Harry
:26:06. > :26:09.Redknapp's late lamented Rosie, all bark and no bite.
:26:09. > :26:13.When you do your supermarket shopping you are not only paying
:26:13. > :26:19.for your provisions, your taxes are subsidising the likes of Tesco,
:26:19. > :26:22.Asda, Morrisons, and Sainsbury's, despite their whopping profits, and
:26:22. > :26:25.the huge remuneration packages for their CEOs. The Prime Minister has
:26:25. > :26:30.praised the big four for creating thousands of new jobs, what he
:26:30. > :26:34.didn't say is the wages for many of these jobs means that employees are
:26:34. > :26:38.in working poverty. That is the phrase deployed in a report by the
:26:38. > :26:48.Fair Pay Network, which reveals many supermarket staff are reliant
:26:48. > :27:02.
:27:02. > :27:06.I sat at 11.00pm, and I finish at 7.00am. My job basically entails
:27:07. > :27:15.redressing sections of the store. My job can be pretty repetitive,
:27:15. > :27:19.and boring at times. But on the whole, I do enjoy it. They scan the
:27:19. > :27:25.barcodes, stack the shelves, stick the stickers on offering us two for
:27:25. > :27:30.one. Just short of a million people work for the big four supermarkets,
:27:30. > :27:37.many tell the same story. On the whole the pay, I don't think it is
:27:37. > :27:44.enough to live on. I am in arrears with my rent at the moment. Not by
:27:44. > :27:50.a lot, but it is there, and I have received letters saying that I
:27:50. > :27:55.could be thrown out of the house if I can't catch up with my acareers.
:27:55. > :27:59.I'm also behind with my council tax, I just don't even want to think
:27:59. > :28:04.about that, I'm so far behind with that, and the same with the water
:28:04. > :28:10.bill. Supermarkets pay low wages. Many on
:28:10. > :28:13.the lowest hourly rates survive only by claiming in-work benefits.
:28:13. > :28:19.Sarah, not her real name, because supermarket workers are not allowed
:28:19. > :28:25.to talk to the press, earns �200 a week working nights, and relies on
:28:25. > :28:31.�129 a week of tax credits, including Child Tax Credit to make
:28:31. > :28:35.ends meet. Soon, as her child turns 16, she will lose most of that.
:28:35. > :28:40.petrified at what is going to happen. I really don't know how I'm
:28:40. > :28:46.going to be able to continue to work on the wage that I'm actually
:28:46. > :28:54.going to be living on, basic clo, and support my son and the rest of
:28:54. > :28:58.my family, I don't think I will be able to do it. I don't know what
:28:58. > :29:03.the alternative is, except going on job seekers, which doesn't make a
:29:03. > :29:10.lot of sense. I don't think for me in my situation going out to work
:29:10. > :29:14.does actual low pay. Supermarkets have a lot of power.
:29:14. > :29:17.Their price wars can move inflation figure, their expansion policies
:29:17. > :29:25.can make-or-break town centres. Now they are creating tens of thousands
:29:25. > :29:29.of new jobs, when it comes to politicians, everybody wants to be
:29:29. > :29:35.the supermarkets' friend. David Cameron even used a supermarket as
:29:35. > :29:39.a stage to make a point about benefits. Are you happy that your
:29:39. > :29:44.taxes are going towards families, where no-one is working, and they
:29:44. > :29:48.are earning over �26,000 in benefits. Is that fair?
:29:48. > :29:53.That's a good question. But here is another one, why do so many people
:29:53. > :29:58.with jobs earn so little that they have to rely on in-work benefits to
:29:58. > :30:02.survive. Why do so many of them work for supermarkets?
:30:03. > :30:08.Why, in other words, does the taxpayer have to fund the pay bill
:30:08. > :30:12.of these big four employers? Well, for supermarkets, pay is a
:30:12. > :30:17.touchy question. When researchers from the Fair Pay Network tried to
:30:17. > :30:20.survey supermarket workers about their pay, they ran into a problem.
:30:20. > :30:25.We encountered, from day one, universally, across the four
:30:25. > :30:31.regions we worked, a pretty pathological fear of engagment with
:30:31. > :30:34.us. I think if you look for example, at Tesco, part of the employment
:30:34. > :30:38.contract includes forbidding discussing Tesco matters with
:30:38. > :30:42.anyone outside. We lost a lot of people that, in principle, wanted
:30:42. > :30:46.to talk to us. The fear was too great. In fact our research teams
:30:46. > :30:51.were followed, they were founded around. This was a pretty straight
:30:51. > :30:58.forward social survey. And wherever it was discovered to be going on, a
:30:58. > :31:03.culture of pro-hib Biggs went down across the bored -- prohibition
:31:04. > :31:07.went across the board. Here the words are spoken by actors. Woman
:31:07. > :31:11.that lives in private association flat with seven-year-old son, has
:31:11. > :31:16.two jobs, 16 hours a week as shelf stacker, and the rest of the time
:31:16. > :31:21.as a waitress. Without my rent cap my housing benefit, my tax credits,
:31:21. > :31:31.we would be out on the street, both of us. If I work for the
:31:31. > :31:32.
:31:32. > :31:38.supermarket full-time, and not in the cafe, we would be worse. At the
:31:38. > :31:45.cafe I get tips. A mother of two, husband has two jobs, and works
:31:45. > :31:49.herself, gets benefit. At least I'm out and about with people working
:31:49. > :31:54.in the supermarket, I don't want to beg, to be honest, I would be
:31:54. > :32:00.better off on benefits. I would get the same pay on job seekers, I
:32:00. > :32:04.don't want to live that way or this way. They won't pay us any more,
:32:04. > :32:07.there are no jobs around here, if you slack, someone else can take
:32:07. > :32:10.your place after they sack you. They always say that, they could
:32:10. > :32:16.fill your job before you get your coat. Though they have been
:32:16. > :32:20.squeezed by the economic downturn, the supermarkets made �4 billion in
:32:20. > :32:25.pre-tax profits together in 2011. Campaigners acknowledge the profits
:32:25. > :32:29.might be less if the wages were higher, so too would the bill to
:32:29. > :32:34.the taxpayer. Do we as tax-payers think it is acceptable to have four
:32:34. > :32:38.employers, employing almost 900,000 people, the second-biggest employer
:32:38. > :32:41.outside the NHS, who don't pay their staff a sufficient wage,
:32:41. > :32:45.despite turning billions in profits, and paying executives tens of
:32:45. > :32:49.millions, we make up the difference. Is that fair, do tax-payers think
:32:49. > :32:54.that is fair. All the big four supermarkets pointed out they
:32:54. > :33:02.provide discount cards, bonuses and training. Morrisons and Sainsbury's
:33:02. > :33:06.refused to discuss hourly rates. Asda told us its hourry rates from
:33:06. > :33:11.above the minimum wage. None of the employers wanted to appear on
:33:11. > :33:16.camera, but were happy for their trade association to speak for them.
:33:16. > :33:19.The Government's policy is a national minimum wage, and we, not
:33:19. > :33:24.only meet, but exceed the requirements of the national
:33:24. > :33:28.minimum wage. We help a lot of people who otherwise would be
:33:28. > :33:33.dependant on benefits, because we provide flexible and part-time
:33:33. > :33:37.working that enables them to combine the world of work, with
:33:37. > :33:42.their caring and studying and other responsibilities. People who can
:33:42. > :33:45.only work part-time through illness. That is a significant benefit to
:33:45. > :33:50.those individuals who are much more independent than they otherwise
:33:50. > :33:53.might be, and to society by reducing the cost of benefits.
:33:53. > :34:02.message is be grateful you have a job, and it is not our problem if
:34:02. > :34:07.you can't live on the wages? retailers provide the rate for the
:34:07. > :34:11.job, they pay wages that are similar to other sectors, including
:34:11. > :34:15.the public sector, they meet all of their obligations and go further,
:34:15. > :34:21.and yes they provide lots of opportunities for people to develop
:34:21. > :34:25.themselves, and to further their careers into higher paid jobs in
:34:25. > :34:30.the future. What the campaigners want is something called a living
:34:30. > :34:35.wage, calculated at �7.20 outside London, �8.30 inside the capital.
:34:35. > :34:38.Banks, law firms and some public sector employers have signed living
:34:38. > :34:42.wage agreements for their lowest paid staff, and the politicians
:34:42. > :34:47.have lauded the idea. You asked for a living wage in the
:34:47. > :34:52.public sector, and as you know, I think this is a good and attractive
:34:52. > :34:57.idea. Those who have studied the existing schemes are blunt about
:34:57. > :35:02.the advantages. The living wage would be a huge benefit, mainly to
:35:02. > :35:07.the taxpayer at the present period of time. So if you moved people
:35:07. > :35:14.from the minimum wage to the living wage, the taxpayer would probably
:35:14. > :35:19.benefit by about �50 per week, per5 worker. For supermarkets employing
:35:19. > :35:22.100,000 workers getting tax credits, which is plausible. If each one of
:35:22. > :35:26.them got �50 a week from the employer, rather than the taxpayer,
:35:26. > :35:28.you are talking about hundreds of millions of pounds every single
:35:28. > :35:32.year. The taxpayer would be benefiting there, the Treasury
:35:32. > :35:37.would be benefiting. For those who stack the shelves,
:35:37. > :35:43.though, it is about fairness. This was our shop workers reaction when
:35:43. > :35:48.we told her that supermarket CEOs earn between �3-�7 million. I had
:35:48. > :35:54.no idea at all, I thought something around about �100,000 or something
:35:54. > :36:00.like that. But not, millions. No, that is completely wrong. In fact
:36:00. > :36:07.you have opened my eyes, greatly, I am absolutely shocked that they do
:36:07. > :36:10.get that kind of money. It is unbelievable. When surveyed,
:36:10. > :36:14.supermarket workers say they do appreciate the flexibility, the
:36:14. > :36:17.training, the management style, but if we are now reliant on these big
:36:18. > :36:21.four employers to create jobs, we may have to accept the fact that
:36:21. > :36:28.hundreds of thousands of workers do not earn enough to live on, and
:36:28. > :36:33.that the taxpayer takes up the slack. I'm joined now by Neal
:36:34. > :36:38.Lawson, the left-leaning pressure group who supports the idea of the
:36:38. > :36:42.living wage, and Sheila Lawlor. Sheila Lawlor, we heard from the
:36:42. > :36:46.women, they didn't want to beg but be in work, whether it paid more or
:36:46. > :36:53.not, they wanted to be out there. You heard from the woman saying
:36:53. > :36:57.�200 was what she earned, and �120 in benefits. That is not right, is
:36:58. > :37:01.it? Isn't it better to have some in-work benefit than entirely on
:37:01. > :37:05.benefit for having no job at all. Remember the downside of this
:37:05. > :37:12.report, which painted a very rosy picture of what the campaigners
:37:12. > :37:15.called a living wage. The downside is that the more we make employment
:37:15. > :37:20.cost money, the less productive companies will be, and they will go
:37:20. > :37:25.out of work. We have already seen unemployment go up from 8.3% last
:37:25. > :37:30.quarter to 8.4% this quarter. And we have almost 2.7 million people
:37:30. > :37:35.out of work. If it is expensive to employ people, and wages are not
:37:35. > :37:38.the only cost. There are lots of non-wage costs an employer has to
:37:38. > :37:42.meet. What is wrong with that, the wage costs are something which
:37:42. > :37:45.every single one of these supermarkets faces? We heard this
:37:45. > :37:48.argument exactly the same argument over the minimum wage. It is a
:37:48. > :37:53.crying wolf, saying that loads of people will lose their jobs, and
:37:53. > :37:56.loads of people didn't lose their jobs. On the economic argument, in
:37:56. > :38:00.fairness, I don't know how anyone manages to live and bring up a
:38:00. > :38:04.family on even �8 an hour, if you had a living wage. That seems to me
:38:04. > :38:07.an incredible burden, you have to do two shift, you have to find
:38:07. > :38:10.other work, you never see your kid, you can't read them a bed time
:38:10. > :38:14.story, you don't see your partner, it is a terrible social cost of
:38:14. > :38:17.this stuff. But even on the economics, that what we are doing
:38:17. > :38:22.is breaking the back of the state, because the state have to pick up
:38:22. > :38:26.the bill, that costs all of us huge amounts of money. The workers on
:38:26. > :38:29.these benefits, you think they should get the benefits? We have a
:38:29. > :38:35.system. I would rather, we have enough money to pay people as much
:38:35. > :38:38.as we could possibly pay them. Provided it was viable in terms of
:38:38. > :38:42.competition. Do you think the supermarkets, because the
:38:42. > :38:46.supermarkets know full well about the range of benefits, in a sense,
:38:46. > :38:49.they are relying on that cushion, they themselves know that they can
:38:49. > :38:54.pay the workers these wages, because guess what, the taxpayer
:38:54. > :38:59.can pick up the slack? That's one way of looking at it, I don't think
:38:59. > :39:04.it is the only way. If you look at wage bills, they are very, very
:39:04. > :39:07.high, because you have to take and factor in the non-wage costs of
:39:07. > :39:10.every employer. Look at the profits? You put an extra cost
:39:10. > :39:14.across the board on any company, and they will start shrinking the
:39:14. > :39:19.number of workers. In the supermarket chains they will be
:39:19. > :39:25.moving to more automatic tills, where you swipe in and out yourself.
:39:25. > :39:28.The cost of this sort of well intentioned measure is to lose jobs
:39:28. > :39:32.overall. Surely, it is the Government in the dock here not the
:39:32. > :39:35.supermarkets. The supermarkets are just capitalist? They are just
:39:35. > :39:39.capitalist, they will push wages down as far as they can, they
:39:39. > :39:44.wouldn't have a minimum wage, they would pay �4, �3, if they could get
:39:44. > :39:48.away with it. That essentially is immoral? It is both immoral, bad
:39:48. > :39:53.for the state, but actually bad for the companies and economies as well.
:39:53. > :39:57.Henry Ford was a God capitalist, he knew he had to -- a good capitalist,
:39:57. > :40:01.he knew he had to pay the wages that would buy the cars. The great
:40:01. > :40:05.thing about the report, it says the people working in the figure four,
:40:05. > :40:09.don't shop in the big four, they go to Aldi and Lidl, that is where
:40:09. > :40:13.they can afford. These people are destroying their own productive
:40:13. > :40:18.base. It would generate growth if you paid people enough money that
:40:18. > :40:22.they could spend on the things their family needed, books, food,
:40:22. > :40:26.travel? Do you want an economy where we price labour out of the
:40:26. > :40:31.market, where we pay the social consequences of people having no
:40:31. > :40:36.job, you heard some of the ladies who were interviewed on this show
:40:36. > :40:41.say they would much prefer to have a job and not to be begging. What
:40:41. > :40:44.they were also saying was it was absolutely crippling them? It is,
:40:44. > :40:49.the price of living is crippling people, why is it crippling people,
:40:49. > :40:53.because already we have very, very high costs in the economy, we
:40:53. > :40:59.cannot compete globally we can't sell our goods overseas, we can't
:40:59. > :41:03.compete in a global market, our unemployment is going up, our wage
:41:03. > :41:09.costs are not competitive. Every independent economic survey will
:41:09. > :41:14.say the unit cost of production in the European Union and Britain is
:41:14. > :41:18.cripplingly high and we can't xot in a much wider market. -- Compete
:41:18. > :41:22.in a much wider market. It is surely better that Tesco and
:41:22. > :41:31.Morrisons and all the supermarkets are expanding and bringing jobs to
:41:31. > :41:35.areas where none exists? Of -- Existed? It is, but this is not a
:41:35. > :41:39.non-competitive market, -- this is a non-competitive market, this is
:41:39. > :41:43.the only place they can sell food in Britain, we have �4 billion in
:41:43. > :41:48.profit, and chief executives making �7 billion, it is abhorrent they
:41:48. > :41:51.are employing people at miserable, slave wages, if they don't do
:41:51. > :41:54.something about it, it is up to us as a society to say we will force
:41:55. > :41:59.you to pay a wage at which you can live. Can you force them? If you
:41:59. > :42:03.have a law, and you heard the people, on the programme saying, we
:42:04. > :42:07.have the minimum wage. I think it is very, very wrong and
:42:07. > :42:13.irresponsible, especially at this time, with such rapidly rising
:42:13. > :42:17.unemployment in Britain, to started a vow Kateing more cost on
:42:17. > :42:22.employers. - advocating more costs on employers. David Cameron talked
:42:22. > :42:25.about the living wage, he supported it? Politicians are very much in
:42:25. > :42:29.the market for encouraging people to think they are on their side,
:42:29. > :42:33.that is what politics is about. It is not on the side of Britain for
:42:33. > :42:37.the long-term future. Why doesn't the Government, if they think it is
:42:37. > :42:42.such a great thing, just go ahead, institute the living wage? I think
:42:42. > :42:46.they should do. But we have been locked into this 30-year, free
:42:46. > :42:51.market fundamentalism that says that the people at the bottom have
:42:51. > :42:55.to be pushed down and can't earn a decent wage, where those at the top
:42:55. > :42:58.can earn as much as possible and can all let rip. We have paid the
:42:58. > :43:02.price of that and the economy has, we need a different way of locking
:43:02. > :43:07.at it. Do you think that is immoral, that the CEOs get millions and
:43:07. > :43:10.other bonuses as well? What is immoral is the vendetta we have
:43:10. > :43:15.seen against independent, legal decisions made against companies
:43:15. > :43:19.paying out wages. This week and last week. And yes, by all means,
:43:19. > :43:25.bring in a law, if that has the support of parliament. But this
:43:25. > :43:33.sort of pressure is, as one leader of a small business has said, it
:43:33. > :43:36.was a vend det at that and witch- hunt against companies -- vendetta
:43:36. > :43:39.and witch-hunt against companies making money for this country and
:43:39. > :43:43.employing many people. Nothing will change in the foreseeable future,
:43:43. > :43:46.because as Sheila Lawlor says, there are plenty of people chasing
:43:46. > :43:49.jobs? We shouldn't be exploiting those people, we should be paying
:43:49. > :43:52.them a wage that they will then go and spend their money in the
:43:52. > :43:56.economy and help us get out of the mess we are in, and we will help
:43:56. > :44:06.them socially, morally and economically as well.
:44:06. > :44:06.
:44:06. > :44:59.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 53 seconds
:44:59. > :45:09.Thank you very much. The front Harry Redknapp will get �4 million,
:45:09. > :45:19.That's all from Newsnight tonight, Gavin will be with you tomorrow,
:45:19. > :45:44.
:45:44. > :45:47.from all of us here tonight, good Another wintry night out there,
:45:47. > :45:51.further know across the Midland, further counties of England
:45:51. > :45:55.drifting into the south-east of Wales. A covering in many places,
:45:55. > :46:02.5cms, maybe more in some spots. The snow clears away sharply on Friday,
:46:02. > :46:05.then things brighten up on eastern areas. Plenty of sunshine in
:46:05. > :46:08.Lincolnshire, temperatures struggling to get above freezing. A
:46:08. > :46:12.bright sparkling day for the Midlands, East Anglia and the
:46:12. > :46:16.south-east, again it is cold. After a wet start in the south west,
:46:16. > :46:23.dryer and brighter, the rain looking clinging on to Cornwall
:46:23. > :46:26.late in the day, as it does in Pembrokeshire.
:46:26. > :46:30.It will stay dull across the east of Northern Ireland, but
:46:30. > :46:34.temperatures here much higher, a mild eight or nine Celsius, some
:46:34. > :46:37.brightness across the west in Northern Ireland, western Scotland
:46:37. > :46:41.stays dull. Some brightness in parts of the north, particularly in
:46:41. > :46:44.the Moray firth. It stays cloudy in Scotland and Northern Ireland into
:46:44. > :46:48.the weekend, it crucially stays milder, there will be some rain
:46:48. > :46:52.especially in northern Scotland. For England and Wales, plenty of
:46:52. > :46:57.winter sunshine, a cold start and plenty of sunshine through the day.
:46:57. > :47:01.It will turn a bit grey by Sunday. It will also cloud across on