:00:07. > :00:11.Tonight, how sick is the health bill? The big changes the
:00:11. > :00:17.Government is planning for the NHS are being eaten away by opposition
:00:17. > :00:20.from within the Conservative Party. Go, go, go.
:00:20. > :00:23.At least Tory cabinet ministers have apparently lost faith in
:00:23. > :00:26.either the bill or the Health Secretary, Andrew Lansley. It is
:00:26. > :00:29.not about me, it is about us as a Government. Would you be prepared
:00:29. > :00:32.to resign and get the bill through that way?
:00:32. > :00:37.Who are the Lansley three, we will ask the Health Minister, Simon
:00:37. > :00:44.Burns, if he has any idea. Government resignations in Greece
:00:44. > :00:48.as the eurozone tightens the screws even more, Paul Mason is in Athens.
:00:48. > :00:51.Greece signs an austerity package, the EU throws it back and asks for
:00:51. > :00:54.more. Are the Germans trying to push this country into chaos.
:00:54. > :00:57.Also tonight, is being lonely a threat to your health?
:00:57. > :01:02.On one of the coldest days of the year, the Government says
:01:02. > :01:06.loneliness is a big killer for old people. Worse than smoking.
:01:06. > :01:10.But is it just a ruse to get the elderly out of their big houses and
:01:10. > :01:20.back to work? We will discuss the differences
:01:20. > :01:23.
:01:23. > :01:27.between loneliness and being alone, Good evening, anyone who looks at
:01:27. > :01:32.the National Health Service knows that something has to change. The
:01:32. > :01:36.ageing population, health inflation at 7% and the problems of running
:01:36. > :01:39.Europe's biggest bureaucracy mean the NHS does have to adapt or die.
:01:39. > :01:43.Against that background it is astonishing how lonely it must be
:01:43. > :01:47.to be Andrew Lansley tonight. The Health Secretary has been told by
:01:47. > :01:50.the popular website, Conservative Home, that three Tory cabinet
:01:50. > :01:54.ministers have come to them, expressing deep reservation about
:01:54. > :01:59.the bill. An unnamed Downing Street source suggests Mr Lansley should
:01:59. > :02:02.be taken out and shot. The big question tonight is if Mr Lansley
:02:02. > :02:09.cannot persuade serious people in his own party, how on earth can he
:02:09. > :02:13.persuade the country? After 136 changes, already made to
:02:13. > :02:19.a flagship bill, the Government, it seems, still hasn't got it right.
:02:19. > :02:24.That's what at least part of the Government itself thinks.
:02:24. > :02:26.Earlier this week an unnamed Number Ten adviser was quoted as saying
:02:26. > :02:31.that Health Secretary Andrew Lansley should be taken out and
:02:31. > :02:35.shot, for alienating doctors and nurses. Now three anonymous cabinet
:02:35. > :02:39.ministers have allegedly chimed in too. Disloyally telling an
:02:39. > :02:44.influential Tory website that the bill, or the Health Secretary,
:02:44. > :02:50.should be dropped. But who were they? The editor of the site wasn't
:02:50. > :02:53.letting on. I'm not giving any clues to the identity of these
:02:53. > :02:56.cabinet ministers, I'm just focusing today on what they told me
:02:56. > :03:01.about the National Health Service. So Newsnight set out to try to
:03:01. > :03:11.wihittle down the list of suspects, by a process of lodge kaldeduction,
:03:11. > :03:15.based on the responses we could kol -- logical deduction based on the
:03:15. > :03:20.responses we could get today. Nine clearly told us they weren't among
:03:20. > :03:24.the three, among them, Ken Clark, Michael Gove and Baroness Warsi,
:03:24. > :03:29.that is apparently nine eliminated. A further eight said they supported
:03:29. > :03:36.the bill in general, but refused to tell Newsnight directly whether or
:03:36. > :03:39.not they had spoken to the website. They include Oliver Letwin, David
:03:39. > :03:46.Willetts, and Andrew Mitchell. We can fairly safely eliminate George
:03:46. > :03:50.Osborne, Chancellor and head of Tory strategy, along with the Chief
:03:50. > :03:54.Whip, these six remain as question marks, along with the final group
:03:54. > :03:58.of ministers who didn't answer. Two of those, we can confidently say
:03:58. > :04:03.would have been most unlikely to have briefed Conservative Home,
:04:04. > :04:07.William Hague, and Theresa May. So that deduction leaves us with seven
:04:07. > :04:11.Conservative cabinet attendees, who may have picked up the phone to
:04:11. > :04:19.brief against their colleague, Andrew Lansley. That's assuming
:04:19. > :04:23.that everyone has been open and honest in their responses.
:04:23. > :04:28.In addition to that, Philip Hammond has contacted Newsnight in the last
:04:28. > :04:30.hour to say he didn't speak to the Conservative Home side about the
:04:30. > :04:34.bill. The road to the bill for the health
:04:34. > :04:38.service has been long and ever more controversial, with many in the
:04:38. > :04:41.medical profession insisting that more competition won't help the NHS.
:04:41. > :04:43.The Government has had to make concessions to the Liberal
:04:43. > :04:49.Democrats, but the main concern of some Conservatives, is not that the
:04:49. > :04:54.bill is wrong, but that it is unnecessary, and politically
:04:55. > :04:58.dangerous. There was still hope and belief of the possibility of a u-
:04:58. > :05:02.turn. From your contacts since with Downing Street, how are they
:05:02. > :05:05.reacting to this? There is unanimity that this is a terrible
:05:05. > :05:10.pickle, if we had the time again the Conservative Party, the
:05:10. > :05:14.coalition, wouldn't have embarked upon these reforms. I can't find
:05:14. > :05:20.anybody who believes in these reforms enthusiastically, who is
:05:20. > :05:24.willing to go out and argue with gusto.
:05:24. > :05:28.Today the Health Secretary himself was heckled by protestors, as he
:05:28. > :05:31.visited The Royal College of Surgeries in Edinburgh. But is such
:05:31. > :05:35.opposition caused by the nature of the reforms themselves, or a fill
:05:35. > :05:38.your to communicate their benefits. That is what Mr Lansley was
:05:38. > :05:43.challenged over by a BBC colleague. This legislation has been supported
:05:43. > :05:47.by the House of Commons, supported by the House of Lords, the bill has
:05:47. > :05:50.been amended to take account of many changes. Aren't you the
:05:50. > :05:54.problem here minister, aren't you the problem? Let me just tell you,
:05:54. > :05:58.that we as a Government are committed, not just to this
:05:58. > :06:01.legislation, it is not about the bill as such, it is about what the
:06:01. > :06:05.bill enables the NHS to achieve in the future. That is not about me,
:06:05. > :06:10.but us as a Government. Would you be prepared to resign and get the
:06:10. > :06:15.bill through that way. Something some think the Health
:06:15. > :06:19.Secretary will be gone after the next cabinet reshuffle in the
:06:19. > :06:24.summer, his bill will probably survive, but it will face
:06:24. > :06:27.opposition in the House of Lords and the Lib Dem spring conference.
:06:27. > :06:30.The Lords can make amendments to the bill but they can't stop it. We
:06:30. > :06:34.had a vote in the House of Commons on the third reading of the bill
:06:34. > :06:39.and it got through. The likelihood is this bill will become law,
:06:39. > :06:44.unless, of course, at a senior political level, the cabinet level,
:06:44. > :06:51.it is recognised that they can see ahead and realise that this is
:06:51. > :06:55.going to cause such catastrophy throughout the NHS, it is going to
:06:55. > :07:00.cause political kas at that time trophy for the coalition as well --
:07:00. > :07:05.catastrophy for the coalition as well. As a politician he's widely
:07:06. > :07:11.regarded as a minister of integrity, many enthused about him in the
:07:11. > :07:15.early days of Government. Many now think it is adding to the
:07:15. > :07:18.coalition's ills. The Health Minister, Simon Burns, is here,
:07:18. > :07:21.welcome again. Do you have any idea who the three are, who was been
:07:21. > :07:24.briefing the website? That is the froth of a question that
:07:24. > :07:34.journalists and the Westminster village. You don't care, you think
:07:34. > :07:36.
:07:36. > :07:39.it is froth if three cabinet ministers are taking to task the
:07:39. > :07:43.Health Secretary on a central plank of our Government? It is froth
:07:43. > :07:46.trying to find out. They were in an article, unnamed, what is important
:07:46. > :07:51.is that the Prime Minister fully supports the modernisation
:07:51. > :07:55.legislation, the cabinet supports it, the House of Commons has voted
:07:55. > :08:01.it through, and the House of Lords has given it a second reading and
:08:01. > :08:07.will consider it, amendment wise. Presumably you don't know who the
:08:07. > :08:12.12 cabinet members the Spectator says might want the bill killed?
:08:12. > :08:15.I'm more interested in moving the bill forward because it is needed
:08:15. > :08:19.for modernising the NHS. That is curious, you were a listening
:08:19. > :08:23.minister, working to a listening Health Secretary who says he's
:08:23. > :08:25.listening to people, and you are not listening to any of these
:08:25. > :08:28.cabinet colleagues who have serious reservations and prepared to talk
:08:28. > :08:33.to other people about it? certainly are listening, and will
:08:33. > :08:38.continue to listen. What I have not heard from colleagues is, that the
:08:38. > :08:42.bill should be withdrawn or changed even more. What I have heard from
:08:42. > :08:46.colleagues is that they realise that the NHS has got to modernise,
:08:46. > :08:51.to meet the challenges facing it, that you mentioned in your
:08:51. > :08:55.introduction, and that they do not want it watered down to diminish
:08:55. > :08:59.the main focus of the bill, which is concentrating on patients.
:09:00. > :09:03.they are on your side and they agree with all that, why have you
:09:03. > :09:06.so singularly failed to persuade them, so they are talking to
:09:06. > :09:11.Conservative Home, highly regarded in your party, you highly regard
:09:11. > :09:14.the website. The Spectator, which supports your party in broad terms,
:09:14. > :09:17.why are they briefing these people and you are not hearing about it?
:09:17. > :09:21.don't know who they are, I can't answer for them. Why wouldn't they
:09:21. > :09:26.talk to you? I don't even know the context of conversations they had
:09:26. > :09:30.with the seb website. It is rather difficult to answer it. What I can
:09:30. > :09:34.tell you, from what I know, is what colleagues say to me in the House
:09:34. > :09:39.of Commons, which is they fully understand that we need the
:09:39. > :09:44.legislation to modernise the health service, because they believe that
:09:44. > :09:48.it is the right way forward for GPs to commission their care. The bill
:09:48. > :09:54.will survive, and Andrew Lansley will survive? I'm confident the
:09:54. > :09:57.bill will survive, because what we have done over the last 15 months,
:09:57. > :10:03.we created the independent future forum last April, May, so they, a
:10:03. > :10:11.group of clinicians, and NHS people, went out to consult with the NHS,
:10:11. > :10:16.to find out how we could improve and strengthen the fill. Andrew
:10:16. > :10:20.Lansley will survive? Yes because he's doing a great job. He's said
:10:20. > :10:24.to be the most knowledgeable person about the NHS, he knows it inside
:10:24. > :10:27.and out, and he has a vision to modernise it, to meet the
:10:27. > :10:31.challenges. That is the puzzle, isn't it, if you can't bring people
:10:31. > :10:35.within the Conservative Party along with him, he's certainly not going
:10:35. > :10:40.to bring a lot of Lib Dems. keep saying that, but the fact is,
:10:40. > :10:44.the bill got a majority in the House of Commons and then passed to
:10:44. > :10:48.the House of Lords. Because we have been able to listen, we have had
:10:48. > :10:53.cross-party talks with Liberal Democrats, crossbenchers, and some
:10:53. > :10:56.Labour peers in the House of Lords, we have got improvements that have
:10:56. > :11:00.strengthened things like the comprehensive nature of the health
:11:00. > :11:05.service, the issue dealing with inequalities. It is not becoming
:11:05. > :11:09.your poll tax, a bill where Mrs Thatcher was told there is real
:11:09. > :11:13.trouble if you force it through, she had to do a huge damaging u-
:11:13. > :11:17.turn? I tell you why I don't think it is. When you have modernisation,
:11:17. > :11:20.particularly in areas that are controversial, like the health
:11:20. > :11:26.service, which arouses strong passions, you get a number of
:11:26. > :11:31.forces that will fight it. You have political forces, in the form of
:11:31. > :11:36.the opposition, you then have the bodies within the NHS, many of them
:11:36. > :11:40.consider considered trade unions, who will fight change because they
:11:40. > :11:46.are Conservative with a - conservative with a small "c", if
:11:46. > :11:49.you had the BMA you wouldn't have had it in the first place.
:11:49. > :11:54.Joining me is Isobel Oakeshott, political editor of the Sunday
:11:54. > :11:57.Times, and Tim Collins, a former adviser to Tony Blair, and a
:11:57. > :12:01.columnist with The Times. How much trouble is the bill in? If we were
:12:02. > :12:04.to call it a patient, it would be sickly but not dying. I think there
:12:04. > :12:09.is absolutely no question whatsoever of the Government
:12:09. > :12:13.dropping this bill. David Cameron is actually his staunch, the
:12:13. > :12:16.staunchest defenders of the bill, alongside Andrew Lansley. --
:12:16. > :12:20.defender of the bill, alongside Andrew Lansley. They have gone too
:12:21. > :12:24.far to uark turn, if they u-turned on this, it would make all the
:12:25. > :12:28.others look like a swerve around a pothole. Is it something that David
:12:28. > :12:32.Cameron's own prestige and gut feeling is we have to do this, this
:12:32. > :12:38.is really important? When you have got this far you have to go through
:12:38. > :12:42.with it. He has been conspicuous by his absence over the last few days.
:12:42. > :12:44.He needs to make the argument and come forward and make the argument
:12:44. > :12:48.for competition. The bill should have been dropped long before now,
:12:48. > :12:52.given he has got to this point, you can't possibly drop it now. The
:12:52. > :12:56.other thing it would do to drop the bill now, would be to send out a
:12:56. > :13:00.signal to the opposition to the bill in the professions, that we
:13:00. > :13:04.blinked first. That any time we come back for any further health
:13:04. > :13:09.reform, we are not going to do this. Simon Burns makes the fair point
:13:09. > :13:12.that people are saying one thing perhaps privately to Conservative
:13:12. > :13:16.Home and others, and they are saying something publicly, which is
:13:16. > :13:20.different, in the way they are voting at least, so far?
:13:20. > :13:25.Interestingly, I have spoken to two cabinet ministers today, who are
:13:25. > :13:29.quite sympathetic with Andrew Lansley. What you do find is that
:13:29. > :13:32.everybody in the cabinet is fed up with the mess this has got them
:13:32. > :13:36.into. What they will say also, those that are trying to push
:13:36. > :13:39.forward major reforms in their departments, understand that any
:13:39. > :13:43.big changes like this always attract a great deal of noise, and
:13:43. > :13:46.you know, you get machine gunned and you just have to get through it.
:13:46. > :13:51.You went through this in your previous role, when people brief
:13:51. > :13:57.against each other in cabinet is a problem? It is a prob embl. This is
:13:57. > :14:01.a political fiasco of -- Problem. This is a political fiasco of a
:14:01. > :14:05.huge kind. When Bevan was asked how did he get them on side, he said he
:14:05. > :14:10.stuffed them with gold. Andrew Lansley is stuffing GPs with not
:14:10. > :14:14.just gold but power, and they are still against him. He hasn't
:14:14. > :14:21.brought the GPs over to his side eventhough they have the gold and
:14:21. > :14:24.power. The The other problem we have, the Liberal Democrat party
:14:24. > :14:27.machine is getting worried about this. They have kept their people
:14:27. > :14:31.relatively disciplined about it over the last few weeks. Their
:14:31. > :14:35.concern is now we are seeing Tories coming out against it, how will
:14:35. > :14:39.they keep their people, grudging about the whole thing any way, how
:14:39. > :14:44.will they keep them coming out over the next few weeks? Is the
:14:44. > :14:48.implication they won't? We have another few weeks of this, running
:14:48. > :14:51.up to the Lib Dem spring conference, where you will get people sticking
:14:51. > :14:56.their necks out over it. interesting point made earlier
:14:56. > :15:00.today, was that David Cameron, he said that extremely -- he did
:15:00. > :15:03.extremely well in the run up to general election by neutralising
:15:03. > :15:07.the NHS, and now having it as such a central poll I is, whether it is
:15:07. > :15:12.right or wrong, it puts that right on the political map, that is
:15:12. > :15:16.difficult for him? That is exactly what the plan was with the NHS,
:15:16. > :15:20.simply to demonstrate that the NHS was safe in Conservative hands.
:15:20. > :15:26.Everybody took that to mean that it would essentially do nothing. This
:15:26. > :15:29.are a lot of reforms in the system that the previous Labour Government
:15:29. > :15:33.had started. If the Conservatives had put their foot down hard on the
:15:33. > :15:37.reforms, and said they wouldn't do another reorganisation, everybody
:15:37. > :15:41.would have expected that. This change came really out of nowhere.
:15:41. > :15:45.If you look in the appendices of Conservative Party policy documents
:15:45. > :15:48.from eight years ago, you can find most of these things. I suspect
:15:48. > :15:52.most people don't read those things. I suspect you might be right on
:15:52. > :15:57.that? I do, obviously. What do you think about Andrew Lansley, you
:15:57. > :16:03.said there is quite a bit of a sympathy, some ministers know how
:16:03. > :16:06.big this is, can he survive? He can and will. It is always dangerous to
:16:06. > :16:10.predict reshuffles, I think he is very strongly supported by David
:16:10. > :16:14.Cameron. I think Number Ten is conscious, Phil you were saying
:16:14. > :16:17.that Cameron, the Prime Minister, needs to come out over the next few
:16:18. > :16:20.days and be more vociferous about this, I understand that the Prime
:16:20. > :16:24.Minister was concerned after prime ministers questions earlier this
:16:24. > :16:27.week, that he hadn't actual low given Andrew Lansley a ringing
:16:27. > :16:33.enough endorsement. What we will see over the next few days is the
:16:33. > :16:36.Prime Minister getting out and defending this policy. I think he
:16:36. > :16:40.can't survive and won't. Reform doesn't begin until after the thing
:16:40. > :16:43.goes through the House. You will find over the next two years the
:16:43. > :16:46.reform starts to happen, I don't think Andrew Lansley can sell this
:16:46. > :16:49.reform out there in the country, I think another Health Secretary will
:16:49. > :16:54.have to do that. There have been resignations are
:16:54. > :16:57.from the grok Government today, despite yesterday's reports that
:16:57. > :17:00.the latest austerity plan appeared to have been agreed. It comes as
:17:00. > :17:06.the eurozone is demanding tougher cuts beyond those accepted by the
:17:06. > :17:09.Greek Government, amid more trouble on the streets.
:17:10. > :17:17.Why is there such a mess and sense of crisis tonight, when last night
:17:17. > :17:23.it seemed as if they had done it? You have to look at the entire
:17:23. > :17:29.thing, the process was they put the agreed austerity plan to the
:17:29. > :17:32.European Union Finance Ministers, they said, no, they want more cuts
:17:32. > :17:37.this year, they hadn't quite delivered that. They want the
:17:37. > :17:47.parties in the coalition here to sign up more or less in person tut
:17:47. > :17:51.to this austerity plan. -- perpituity, to this austerity plan.
:17:51. > :17:56.One of the parties resigned, and said they wouldn't support the
:17:56. > :18:04.austerity plan. In the last you foo minutes it was signed off by the
:18:04. > :18:08.remained -- few minutes it was signed off by the remained ing
:18:08. > :18:12.cabinet, and those others saying they are under the heel of Germany.
:18:12. > :18:18.Where does it go from here, from the eurozone leaders and on the
:18:18. > :18:24.streets? Today there has been clashes, as there nearly always are,
:18:24. > :18:30.on Syntagma Square. There have been more than 20 Town Halls seized by
:18:30. > :18:33.protesters. There is going to be a big strike today and tomorrow. A
:18:33. > :18:38.massive demo on Sunday, which will ring the parliament and try to
:18:39. > :18:43.prevent the MPs from getting in. I don't think it will be about, in
:18:43. > :18:48.the future, social unrest, such as the complete disconnect between now
:18:48. > :18:52.the majority of Greek voters and their parties. They have signed up
:18:52. > :18:57.to something that manifestly most people here don't agree with. What
:18:57. > :19:01.that is doing is corroding, not just the famous trust in politics
:19:01. > :19:04.we see all too well in Britain and other countries, but actual
:19:04. > :19:07.connection between people and their parties. We know what will happen
:19:07. > :19:12.now if this just doesn't work. There will be a default. They will
:19:12. > :19:20.have to leave the euro if it doesn't work, they will have to do
:19:20. > :19:25.so under far more extreme parties than they have in power today.
:19:25. > :19:30.Are you watching Newsnight alone, are you lonely? Loneliness
:19:30. > :19:34.according to a senior adviser in Number Ten might be worse for your
:19:34. > :19:41.old age than smoking. He made the comments in a speech about
:19:41. > :19:46.encouraging speak to retire later. It came after Grant Shapps said the
:19:47. > :19:51.elderly mighting encouraged to downsize in housing.
:19:51. > :19:58.You get to retirement age and then they want you to take on a new job.
:19:58. > :20:02.Number Ten won't interfere in Redknapp led red -- Harry
:20:02. > :20:07.Redknapp's future, but they are saying some of the other 65 plus
:20:07. > :20:12.could spare themselves loneliness if they take on jobs. Harry has
:20:12. > :20:22.plenty of food, but they say Lenliness is worse than smoking for
:20:22. > :20:34.
:20:34. > :20:38.I'm going to see Maude Hazel, who has lived in this block of flats in
:20:38. > :20:43.South-East London since 1939, when she moved in with her parents.
:20:43. > :20:49.She's 86 now. Hello, I'm Stephen, how are you.
:20:49. > :20:53.She lives on her own since the death of her long time companion
:20:53. > :20:58.Marjorie five years ago. We went everywhere together, because I
:20:59. > :21:03.suffered with agraphobia, a fear of open spaces. Because when Marjorie
:21:03. > :21:08.died, I thought how will I get out. I thought to myself I have to eat
:21:08. > :21:14.and buy food. I have got to make myself do it. It was very hard. But
:21:14. > :21:17.I done it. Number Ten Downing Street, they are
:21:17. > :21:24.saying loneliness could be a bigger killer amongst old people than
:21:24. > :21:30.smoking, what do you think about that? I agree with them. Yes,
:21:30. > :21:35.definitely. To suggest that loneliness is, social isolation is
:21:35. > :21:43.more of a problem than smoking isn't particularly helpful, if it
:21:44. > :21:47.distracts attention from things that Government can do in terms of
:21:47. > :21:50.action around tobacco, things around the price of cigarettes,
:21:50. > :21:56.restricting young people's access to cigarettes, reducing advertising
:21:56. > :22:00.and so on, that would be a concern. I think it is interesting for us
:22:00. > :22:06.looking at revolutions, because obvious low the political
:22:06. > :22:10.revolutions are you don't have to be Marxists, and often linked up to
:22:10. > :22:15.economic revolutions and instability. These, shall we say,
:22:15. > :22:18.mature students, at the University of the Third Age, have been
:22:18. > :22:20.studying revolutions at their regular get togethers in North
:22:20. > :22:25.London. How do they feel about the sudden change that the Government
:22:26. > :22:32.seems to favour. Why not just stay in and watch Countdown of an
:22:32. > :22:36.afternoon? I found that U3A has given me an enormous opportunity to
:22:36. > :22:41.fill in all the gaps. Studying for ourselves isn't the only thing our
:22:41. > :22:48.age group does. There is a whole army of retired people who are out
:22:48. > :22:51.there doing voluntary work for the society. If you put us to work, to
:22:51. > :22:55.gainful employment. Paid employment? Yeah, you would have to
:22:56. > :23:01.pay people to do the other jobs that we are doing voluntarily.
:23:01. > :23:07.society certainly makes it easy to be isolated, as you get older and
:23:07. > :23:15.more house bound. But I don't think you can legislate or advise about
:23:15. > :23:22.what people should do. Of -- I have no idea if loneliness
:23:22. > :23:30.is a bigger killer than smoking, it is a statistic from Number Ten. I
:23:30. > :23:33.know loneliness is a big killer of people, and the Number Ten cure of
:23:33. > :23:37.returning to be a wage slave back to work, people should be allowed
:23:37. > :23:41.to do that if they wish, less ageism in the work place. If that
:23:41. > :23:46.is not what they want, they should be enabled as older people to do
:23:46. > :23:51.whatever they wish to do. Maud isn't by herself so much these
:23:51. > :23:56.days, thanks to neighbours and a local charity. God willing,
:23:56. > :24:02.loneliness won't claim her. As for smoking, she quit last year, aged
:24:02. > :24:12.Esther Rantzen has written about loneliness, and is working on
:24:12. > :24:16.setting up a charity aimed at those who are lonely, and Carol Morley,
:24:16. > :24:20.who made the documentary about a woman who lay dead on her sofa for
:24:20. > :24:24.three years before being found. What do you think? The World Health
:24:24. > :24:30.Organisation came out with this first, they said loneliness was
:24:30. > :24:35.worse for your health than smoking and or obesity. The reason is, if
:24:35. > :24:42.you are lonely you lose the desire to live, that means you may go out
:24:42. > :24:45.less, you may not eat properly, and lose the capacity for speech. I
:24:45. > :24:49.watched my mother, when she was bereaved, when she reached a stage
:24:49. > :24:52.in her life when she wasn't regularly meeting and talking to
:24:52. > :24:59.people, when I could hear her speech deteriorate. That is why I
:24:59. > :25:03.want to set up a helpline, I'm calling it, working title, Silver
:25:03. > :25:07.Line, a befriending line but also an information line for older
:25:07. > :25:12.people. Your own experience, you work, you are outgoing, and yet you
:25:13. > :25:18.are lonely? To work the connection doesn't quite make it, does it,
:25:19. > :25:22.just working doesn't do it? Working gives you teams of people to meet
:25:23. > :25:27.during the day, at the end of the day, you open the door to a dark
:25:27. > :25:32.room, a dark flat, a dark house, and the phrase is, you have got
:25:32. > :25:38.plenty of people to do something with, but you have nobody to do
:25:38. > :25:41.nothing with. It is that emotional gap that you need to fill. There is
:25:41. > :25:46.a lot of provision out there, the trouble is people don't know where
:25:46. > :25:53.to find it. It can fill that emotional gap in people's lives.
:25:53. > :25:58.What do you make about this gap, whether loneliness is part of it?
:25:58. > :26:01.In making the film I made. I discovered through the fodback,
:26:01. > :26:08.that loneliness isn't about -- feedback, that loneliness isn't
:26:08. > :26:13.about who you are with, people with can go to work and still -- people
:26:13. > :26:17.can go to work and still be loneliness. There is a real shame
:26:17. > :26:21.about it, being alone and being lonely are different things. The
:26:21. > :26:26.old cliche, people can be lonely in a crowd. I think it is all very
:26:26. > :26:30.confused what I have been reading about, this sense that you have to
:26:30. > :26:33.go to work in order to have company, but actually when you are older you
:26:33. > :26:39.also have to downsize, so you couldn't have room to have people
:26:40. > :26:48.over. I find it very odd. I don't really trust what's being said.
:26:48. > :26:53.that because while Governments are in the business of social policy
:26:53. > :26:56.and so on, is it because the social arrangesments have changed, and
:26:56. > :27:01.families don't go to church any more? I think they are making
:27:01. > :27:05.social policy on fear. The way older people are treated in society,
:27:05. > :27:10.everybody fears getting older. I think also that people, you know,
:27:10. > :27:15.essentially, it is looking at the wrong things. I really don't think
:27:15. > :27:17.getting old people to go to work is necessarily the way forward to
:27:17. > :27:22.combat loneliness. I think it is very important that people continue
:27:23. > :27:27.to feel needed, continue to feel valued. It doesn't necessarily mean
:27:27. > :27:31.paid work, but voluntary work, if you have your health and strength,
:27:31. > :27:35.puts you into company, and at the end of the day you feel a sense of
:27:35. > :27:39.achievement. The centre for social justice did a study that showed
:27:40. > :27:44.400,000 people, they did this at Christmas, 400,000 people regularly
:27:44. > :27:48.spend days in which they don't talk to anyone. That is a new loneliness,
:27:48. > :27:53.these are people who, perhaps like me, have spent all their lives with
:27:53. > :27:58.friends, families, working teams, and sudden low they have to spend
:27:58. > :28:01.whole days by themselves. That is a bit different from what you are
:28:01. > :28:07.decribing, which is the young loneliness, which somebody linked
:28:07. > :28:13.with depression. This is enforced loneliness. I just think loneliness
:28:13. > :28:17.is not just necessarily to do with being older. Obviously as you get
:28:17. > :28:22.older and you are not in work, the only solution, if the only solution
:28:22. > :28:27.is seen as going out to work, I think it is a very poor rational. I
:28:27. > :28:31.think actually we shutd be looking, I love -- should be looking, I
:28:31. > :28:36.think the thing about getting a degree when you are older, make
:28:36. > :28:41.sure the library is working, make sure there is infrastructure to
:28:41. > :28:45.your day. Everything I'm hearing sounds like all the working people,
:28:45. > :28:49.they will end up raising the pension, the age you can retire
:28:50. > :28:54.because they will say, actually, it will keep you healthy. I think it
:28:54. > :28:57.really is a problematic thing. haven't much time left, is the fact
:28:57. > :29:01.that people are talking about it, we are certainly talking about it.
:29:01. > :29:05.Yet it is very there is this stigma, is that a change? It is a change,
:29:05. > :29:10.and it is very important we start to talk about it. Someone wrote to
:29:10. > :29:15.me when I first mentioned the fact that I feel lonely now. It is a bit
:29:15. > :29:21.like in empty restaurants, if you admit you are lonely, people think
:29:21. > :29:31.you are sad and socially isolated and avoid you like an empty
:29:31. > :30:09.
:30:09. > :30:12.restaurant. That's all tonight. Now we have the
:30:12. > :30:15.review show, Charles Dickens themed. This is something we have been