:00:14. > :00:19.Disorder, default, devastation, just days for Greece to convince
:00:19. > :00:23.creditors this time it will make austerity stick. With riots on the
:00:23. > :00:28.streets and unease and rebellions in Parliament, four years of
:00:28. > :00:32.recession and hardship have taken their toll. Paul Mason is there.
:00:32. > :00:37.There's been two years of this and no sign of it letting up. The
:00:37. > :00:43.question now is given that the politicians don't really believe in
:00:43. > :00:48.the austerity, and the Greek people don't believe in it either, it work
:00:48. > :00:54.and can Greek society holding to together? Is Germany saving Greece
:00:54. > :01:01.from ruin or making the suffering worse? And is the Sun going down?
:01:01. > :01:05.One of its leading writers says there's a witch-hunt against Sun
:01:05. > :01:11.journalists. And Sue Lloyd Roberts asks Egyptian
:01:11. > :01:17.women about the sexual abuse many experienced during the Arab Spring.
:01:17. > :01:22.TRANSLATION: If a man forces you to take your clothes off and puts his
:01:22. > :01:29.hand up into your private area, and lives it there for five minutes,
:01:29. > :01:34.this is sexual aggression. I felt utterly defeated.
:01:34. > :01:37.Good evening. In the Vietnam War an American officer is supposed to
:01:37. > :01:41.have said that his troops had to destroy a village in order to save
:01:41. > :01:45.it. You might think something similar in happening right now in
:01:45. > :01:50.Greece. In order to qualify for more funds to pay its debts by
:01:50. > :01:55.March 20th, Greece has had to introduce the toughest austerity
:01:55. > :02:00.programme in Europe since World War II. It's produced violence on the
:02:00. > :02:07.streets. In Germany, officials mutter about the bottomless pit of
:02:07. > :02:11.Greek debts and the devastation that a disorderly unwrapping would
:02:12. > :02:19.cause. Here is Paul Mason in Athens. Last night, the Greek Parliament
:02:19. > :02:23.was asked to look into the abyss, to choose between rejecting
:02:23. > :02:30.austerity, with probable default, probable exit from the euro or
:02:30. > :02:35.implementing austerity as demanded by the EU. And 101 out of 300 MPs
:02:35. > :02:41.said they prefer the abyss. They either didn't turn up to vote or
:02:41. > :02:45.voted against the two main parties each had to expel 20 of their own
:02:45. > :02:50.MPs. A third of the coalition party has left the coalition. The
:02:50. > :02:54.majority passed the austerity measure. That should pave the way,
:02:54. > :03:00.starting on Wednesday, for the European Union begin to write off
:03:00. > :03:04.100 billion euros of Greek debt. But meanwhile, in the parallel
:03:04. > :03:09.universe that starts at the Greek Parliament, there was another Greek
:03:09. > :03:12.reality. And that was the people. Small business people, workers, and
:03:12. > :03:20.young people facing 20% unemployment who had had enough,
:03:20. > :03:29.and they, last night, had their say. As I found out.
:03:29. > :03:34.It It was supposed to be one last, big demonstration against austerity.
:03:34. > :03:44.Workers facing wage cuts, pensioners facing hardship, a lot
:03:44. > :03:45.
:03:45. > :03:55.of people facing an uncertain future. But as dusk fell, the
:03:55. > :03:56.
:03:56. > :04:05.trouble began. Tens of thousands of people found themselves on streets
:04:05. > :04:11.filled with tear gas and fires. And at the front, the minority who
:04:11. > :04:20.had come to fight got what they wanted.
:04:20. > :04:25.The police fought into the night. Months of frustration were released.
:04:25. > :04:31.The police made no attempt to control the streets, so the
:04:31. > :04:35.firebombers had, for some time, free rein. There's been two years
:04:35. > :04:38.of this and no sign of it letting up. The question now is, given that
:04:38. > :04:43.the politicians don't really believe in the austerity and the
:04:43. > :04:51.Greek people don't believe in it either, can it work and can Greek
:04:51. > :04:59.society hold together? 45 buildings were burnt, including this historic
:04:59. > :05:03.cinema. 130 people were arrested. In Parliament, Prime Minister,
:05:03. > :05:08.Lucas Papademos, got a majority for the new austerity package, but both
:05:08. > :05:14.of the major parties had to expel 20 MPs each who opposed the bill.
:05:14. > :05:17.And this morning, Antonis Samaras, who is likely to be the next Prime
:05:17. > :05:22.Minister, announced he would like to containing change and
:05:22. > :05:27.renegotiate the agreement. After last night, how long can Greece
:05:27. > :05:32.last without an election. Nobody can govern a democratic country
:05:32. > :05:35.without the people. I believe the elections are necessary. The
:05:35. > :05:42.decision making is necessary in order to have our citizens with us
:05:42. > :05:47.and not against us. We, the politicians, we have to be more
:05:47. > :05:51.sensitive and more responsible. We have to speak clear and honestly to
:05:51. > :05:57.the people. Whatever last night's vote achieved
:05:57. > :06:03.it was not closure. Greeks are shell shocked at the damage. Shell
:06:03. > :06:08.shocked at the scale of the austerity they just voted for. And
:06:08. > :06:13.trust in the political system is, for many, draining away.
:06:13. > :06:17.Joining me now, live from Athens is Paul. How quickly did the EU have
:06:17. > :06:21.to come up with a second detail out? Well, it starts effectively on
:06:21. > :06:25.Wednesday. But I think it's the beginning of March that we're
:06:25. > :06:32.looking at. A window at the beginning of March before 20th,
:06:32. > :06:37.when the so called PSI, the private sector gets involved. One Greek
:06:37. > :06:45.paper is reporting that 73% of the value of the loans gets written off
:06:45. > :06:51.and Greece gets allowed to have its debt reduced to only 125% of GDP,
:06:51. > :06:56.as opposed to 120, which is the plan, by 2020. But for most people
:06:56. > :06:59.this is academic. What I've heard since I've been here is political
:06:59. > :07:04.operators on all sides of the Parliament saying, in the first
:07:04. > :07:07.bailout we tried to sell it to people on the grounds that it would
:07:07. > :07:11.work and we'd stabilise ourselves and the economy would come back.
:07:12. > :07:15.Now, we're selling it to people on the idea that the alternative is
:07:15. > :07:20.disaster and doom. Very few people are prepared to go out and say,
:07:20. > :07:24."And it will work" and that's because when you look at the
:07:24. > :07:29.dynamics of this country, few restaurants while I've been here
:07:29. > :07:35.with will take credit cards. They want cash. They'll give you a
:07:35. > :07:42.receipt, but they will not take plastic. And slowly but surely,
:07:42. > :07:46.cash, bank deposits are leaking out of the economy and it juz does not
:07:46. > :07:51.-- just does not look like this can turn itself around. And some of the
:07:51. > :07:56.people on the streets were not radical radbles, they are voters.
:07:56. > :08:00.In an election they will want to have their say with their
:08:00. > :08:04.candidates. They will place pressure on the candidates which
:08:04. > :08:10.the European Union will find inconvenient. So what the European
:08:10. > :08:15.Union now has to judge is whether the political system. I'm not
:08:15. > :08:19.talking about it fragmenting and falling apart, but simply
:08:19. > :08:26.delivering what they've just voted on. If they can't do that, that's
:08:26. > :08:33.key for the leadership as the euro approaches the technicalities of
:08:33. > :08:43.giving Greece 130 billion euros. Thank you very much. I'm joined by
:08:43. > :08:49.geest's Finance Minister last summer, Giorgios Papaconstantinou,
:08:49. > :08:53.and Costas Lapavitsas and Christian Schulz. Listening to that, it's
:08:53. > :08:57.clear many people don't want the austerity and many politicians
:08:57. > :09:00.don't think it can work, so who are you doing this for? We're doing it
:09:00. > :09:04.for the country and the citizens obviously. It's been an extremely
:09:05. > :09:10.tough two years. There is no question that people are hurting.
:09:10. > :09:14.Unemployment is at a record level, wages and pensions have been cut,
:09:14. > :09:19.taxes have opinion been raised so it's no surprise that people are
:09:19. > :09:24.looking at the middle of the recession and its worst point and
:09:24. > :09:29.cannot see the exit. And what this new programme is supposed to
:09:29. > :09:34.deliver is to turn the page, to show that confidence can return and
:09:35. > :09:39.that we can put all this behind us and slowly but surely go back on a
:09:39. > :09:43.path of sustainable growth. But it is very clear we were not on such a
:09:44. > :09:48.path before. Indeed, but you have riots in the streets. Within a
:09:48. > :09:54.couple of months you could have elections which could throw all the
:09:54. > :09:57.existing government out and there are those who think this is the
:09:57. > :10:02.insincere acceptance of the impossible. You know you really
:10:02. > :10:05.can't do it? You know, it's easy to look at the riots and say this
:10:05. > :10:10.represents a situation. The demonstrations are, of course, an
:10:10. > :10:14.indication of how people feel. The riots themselves are done by a very
:10:14. > :10:19.small minority of extremists, and plain criminals. It is very clear
:10:19. > :10:24.that at the end of two years of austerity it is not easy to
:10:24. > :10:30.convince people. The question is, is there an alternative to this? Is
:10:30. > :10:35.there something else that we can do. You could leave the eurozone. That
:10:35. > :10:41.would be an alternative? Yes, at a disastrous cost for the country and
:10:41. > :10:45.for the citizens. It is very easy for people to say that. Let me tell
:10:45. > :10:50.you, in very brief term, what would have happened this morning in
:10:50. > :10:57.Greece if the Parliament had voted a different way last night. If it
:10:57. > :11:02.had voted "no", rather than "yes". This morning, around 9.30, there
:11:02. > :11:06.would have been queues at the banks and the Government would have had
:11:06. > :11:12.to close down the banks and Greece would be an island unable to trade
:11:12. > :11:16.with the rest of the world, unable to pay salaries and pensions. It
:11:16. > :11:21.would be a total unmitigated disaster. Those who think there is
:11:21. > :11:25.a way to get out of the euro that is painless and does not shut down
:11:25. > :11:31.the banking system are either deluding themselves or playing a
:11:31. > :11:35.very dangerous game with the Greek people. This is the least worst
:11:35. > :11:40.option, is that an argument? Not at all. I think what is happening to
:11:40. > :11:45.Greece at the moment is a disgrace. There is real despair and poverty
:11:45. > :11:49.in the country and that has been imposed on it by its so-called
:11:49. > :11:55.allies and partners. This is the first thing that has to be said.
:11:55. > :12:00.This has not got a snowball's chance in hell of working. It is
:12:00. > :12:05.heading towards the exit from the Europe and towards bankruptcy in a
:12:05. > :12:09.chaotic way. This is what we've got in front of us, and the argument is
:12:09. > :12:13.among many people in Greece and elsewhere, it is the Greeks who
:12:13. > :12:18.should do that, they should take charge of their own future
:12:18. > :12:26.deliberately and with a plan. is your reaction to that, minister?
:12:26. > :12:30.Yes, what I hear is a collection of slogans, but I hear no answer to
:12:30. > :12:36.the scenario which I -- the nightmare scenario that I just
:12:36. > :12:40.painted for you. Of course Greece should take care of itself and take
:12:40. > :12:45.its own destiny in hand. But when you have a country that year upon
:12:45. > :12:50.year was spending more than it had. That was not really producing and
:12:50. > :12:57.got a huge external deficit and found itself with a debt of 360
:12:57. > :13:04.billion euro then it is very easy to say, "Let's just forget this
:13:04. > :13:10.debt." We can't survive if they somehow, by ourselves decide not to
:13:10. > :13:14.pay our creditors. We do not have a surplus to have more revenue than
:13:14. > :13:20.expenditure. Forgive me for interrupting, but if you do all
:13:20. > :13:27.these good things that you say you feel you have to do by 2020, after
:13:27. > :13:32.another eight years of austerity, your debt will still be 125% of GDP
:13:32. > :13:37.and that in itself may not be payable? Which is about the level
:13:37. > :13:42.of Italy and Ireland and certainly less than the level of Japan. 120%
:13:42. > :13:46.is too high and hopefully we will be able to grow fast, but again on
:13:46. > :13:53.a more sustainable footing and reduce it faster than that. But
:13:53. > :14:00.let's remember what happened in these last two years. In these last
:14:00. > :14:06.two years we reduced it by a massive 20 billion because people
:14:06. > :14:09.took serious sacrifices. Can we really throw all this out and to
:14:09. > :14:14.claw back some of the competitiveness that was lost in
:14:14. > :14:19.the last ten years, do we just throw it out of the window. How do
:14:20. > :14:23.you buy into the argument that this is doable and if so, how much pain
:14:23. > :14:30.is Greece going to have to accept, given that many think in Greece
:14:30. > :14:33.they are being bullied into this by German and other countries? I agree
:14:33. > :14:38.that we should not look at Greece in a deep recession after four
:14:38. > :14:43.years of recession and say this is the way Greece and this is how it
:14:43. > :14:48.will always be. The Germans shouldn't do that, the ones that
:14:48. > :14:57.say at the moment that Greece might be a bottomless pit and the Greeks
:14:57. > :15:03.and the markets shouldn't do that. The level doesn't matter of GDP,
:15:03. > :15:07.what matters is the direction the country is taken in. If the
:15:07. > :15:14.trajectory of the country is 100% it is a different view we have to
:15:14. > :15:19.take. But a German MP said today that a Greek exit from the eurozone
:15:19. > :15:25.would not be the end of the world. That is a very dangerous feeling
:15:25. > :15:30.that is spreading in some parts of the Conservative Party in Germany,
:15:30. > :15:37.that the firewalls are high enough now that a Greek exit wouldn't be a
:15:37. > :15:43.problem any more, but we doubt this is the case. Greece has had 14%
:15:43. > :15:46.contraction of GDP in the last two or three years. It has 21%
:15:46. > :15:52.unemployment and this plan aims for primary surpluses of the Government
:15:52. > :15:56.next year and the year after that. Greece has no business going for
:15:56. > :16:01.primary surpluses right now. This is entirely the wrong economic
:16:01. > :16:06.policy. The people who designed this need to go back to schedule.
:16:07. > :16:12.But with a Greek election in April, do you think it will be rejected by
:16:12. > :16:17.the people? I think the Greek political system in its entirety is
:16:17. > :16:22.competely discredited right now. This is the end of an era in Greece
:16:22. > :16:26.and I don't know if people realise this, but this is where we are. The
:16:26. > :16:32.party that's run Greece is completely finished. The party on
:16:32. > :16:35.the right is in disarray because of how it voted yesterday. I think a
:16:35. > :16:38.new configuration is emerging and the thing that is making all the
:16:38. > :16:44.difference is what is happening on the ground. And what people want is
:16:45. > :16:49.an end to this. They want an end to this humiliation and want a new
:16:49. > :16:53.policy. In terms of the overall future of Greek democracy is that
:16:53. > :16:59.something you worry about. I don't mean specifically that your party
:16:59. > :17:04.is low in the opinion polls, but the whole future 6 Greek democracy
:17:04. > :17:07.is up in the air? Look, we're paying the price of being the
:17:08. > :17:12.firefighters and rather the people turning on the ones who put the
:17:12. > :17:15.fire in the first place, they're turning on the firefighters who are
:17:15. > :17:19.trying to do something about the situation. We're paying a political
:17:19. > :17:24.price. That is what politics is about. I am worried about the
:17:24. > :17:30.future democrats democracy because I am worried about the rising of
:17:30. > :17:34.the extremes. I am worried when a listen to people like Mr Lapavitsas
:17:34. > :17:40.who try to say it's a painless way of getting rid of all the debt upon
:17:40. > :17:45.our country and be able, the next day, come back to the ways as we
:17:45. > :17:51.used to keep going. In other words by spending, but now there will be
:17:51. > :17:56.nobody willing to lend us the money to continue spending. We were a
:17:56. > :18:00.society that was over consuming, who was buying from abroad and did
:18:00. > :18:05.not have a productive base. And we did not restructure our economy in
:18:05. > :18:10.time. This programme is not just about austerity it is about deep
:18:10. > :18:13.reforms reforming the state and the Social Services reforming the tax
:18:14. > :18:19.system so people pay and not evading taxes. This is what it is
:18:19. > :18:22.about. It is a mistake to reduce this programme simply into
:18:22. > :18:29.reductions in expenditure in the public sector. This is part of it,
:18:29. > :18:34.but it's not the whole thing. tell you one thing that really
:18:34. > :18:38.infuriates Greeks right now, precisely the class of politicians
:18:38. > :18:44.that brought this country to this pass, are wagging their fingers and
:18:44. > :18:47.telling people what to do now. It cannot be done. Greece needs a new
:18:47. > :18:52.political line and new organisations. No-one said that
:18:52. > :18:57.getting out of the euro or defaulting on the debt, which
:18:57. > :19:02.actually the country is doing by itself, is going to be easy. But
:19:02. > :19:07.looking at the policy adopted right now is guaranteed to end up in
:19:07. > :19:12.failure. A quick word on that? don't think it's guaranteed to end
:19:12. > :19:16.up in failure. I think Greece is taking the right steps, it just got
:19:16. > :19:21.unlucky. Last year exports were rising but then the mistake was
:19:21. > :19:26.made to restructure Greek debt and there by destroy all the confidence
:19:26. > :19:30.people had been building into a recovery of the country. Now, if
:19:31. > :19:36.Greece were to exit the country we would make the same mistake and
:19:36. > :19:40.spread that mistake to other countries. A final word? I do not
:19:40. > :19:43.my country to become North Korea in Europe. I want my country to become
:19:43. > :19:47.a normal country and I believe we have every possibility to do so. We
:19:47. > :19:53.have the people and the productive resources and there's nothing
:19:53. > :19:57.different in the Greek DNA than that in the rest of Europe. We had
:19:57. > :20:01.a political class that failed the country, but let's not lump
:20:01. > :20:07.everybody together because those who tried to make amends in the
:20:07. > :20:11.last few years are being lumped together with those who created the
:20:11. > :20:18.mess in the future. It's about values and what kind of democracy
:20:18. > :20:23.we want and about presentation and not about a clientistic system of
:20:23. > :20:27.governance. This is what it is about. But it's certainly not about
:20:27. > :20:32.far-fetched ideas that claim that we can somehow get out of this
:20:33. > :20:42.situation without hard work and sacrifices in as just a way as
:20:43. > :20:44.
:20:44. > :20:48.possible. Thank you all very much. In typically robust form, the Sun
:20:48. > :20:52.journalist, Trevor Kavanagh lashed out at the police. Senior figures
:20:52. > :20:57.at the Sun have been questioned after information which came
:20:57. > :21:01.apparently from inside the parent company. Is this global media
:21:01. > :21:07.empire now at war with itself or is it a witch hunt and a threat to
:21:07. > :21:12.press freedom as Mr Arrive nar said? This feels like a witch-hunt.
:21:12. > :21:18.There's a mass hysteria going on now. This is going to be a great
:21:18. > :21:24.cloud hanging over News Corp for the next few years. The Sun came
:21:24. > :21:34.out with heart-felt pleas for justice, for the Sun.
:21:34. > :21:37.
:21:37. > :21:41.The words of Trevor Kavanagh, its senior writer.. Whether we're from
:21:41. > :21:47.red-top tabloids or TV programmes late at night on the BBC,
:21:47. > :21:52.journalists have a tendency to self-mythologyise. We're all
:21:52. > :21:56.legends in our own lunchtime. And the Sun say the wave of arrests at
:21:56. > :22:03.their own newspaper are now threatening the freedom of the
:22:03. > :22:11.press. I Why do we have to have dawn raids and 171 police mn on the
:22:11. > :22:15.case. It's complete overkill. many policemen should be involved?
:22:15. > :22:20.Not 171. And if this is about whether our soldiers had the right
:22:20. > :22:24.equipment I'd say it was a public offence here, just as the MPs
:22:24. > :22:29.expenses. Others who have taken on News International say without
:22:29. > :22:35.knowing what is being investigated it is far too early to claim a
:22:35. > :22:39.public offence. I don't think it's a witch-hunt. I know why it might
:22:39. > :22:44.be perceived as such, but if the police think there is a group of
:22:44. > :22:48.witches somewhere they have to hunt for them. They can't decide to
:22:48. > :22:55.interview some but not others, they have to look for the whole lot of
:22:55. > :23:01.people. But isn't it overkill when you have 120 police officers raided
:23:01. > :23:09.journalist's houses at dawn? It's a bit rich for the Sun to complain
:23:09. > :23:14.about dawn raids, they used to attend dawn raids on other people.
:23:14. > :23:20.Trevor Kavanagh said those arrested had been dropped in it, implicate
:23:20. > :23:24.the in alleged wrongdoing by the parent company, News Corp. A large
:23:24. > :23:29.number of extremely good journalists who have worked very
:23:29. > :23:32.loyally for the company for a very long time, as the company has
:23:32. > :23:40.announced itself, are often in police cells for a long period of
:23:40. > :23:44.time on evidence provided by the company. Shareholders at New corps
:23:44. > :23:52.are deeply concerned that the scandal in the British papers is
:23:52. > :24:00.now threatening Murdoch's entire show. America's foreign and corrupt
:24:00. > :24:03.picturess Act has had the FBI investigating for over six months.
:24:03. > :24:07.These investigations are broader in scope. We now have a different
:24:07. > :24:12.newspaper and part of the company that will be the focus of inquiry
:24:12. > :24:21.and we now have a much broad Erekat disagree of "foreign officials"
:24:21. > :24:26.that were allegedly the recipients of payments. Including some in the
:24:26. > :24:35.military. Last summer, Rupert Murdoch flew into the UK to give
:24:35. > :24:41.his endorsement to international's Rebekah Weighed. She then resigned.
:24:41. > :24:45.Those people hoping that the Sun will close down and go out of
:24:45. > :24:52.business should be careful what they wish for because without it
:24:52. > :24:58.there will be no Sunday papers because they subsidise it. We need
:24:58. > :25:02.a free and varied press in this country and the Sun is part of that.
:25:02. > :25:05.Sources in America say James Murdoch, Rupert's son, is
:25:05. > :25:12.increasingly unlikely to persuade shareholders their business could
:25:12. > :25:18.be safe in his hands and across the Murdoch media, law enforcement will
:25:18. > :25:22.want questions answered. They typically ask the where else
:25:22. > :25:27.question. In other words were payments like this occurring in our
:25:27. > :25:31.News Corp businesses or subsidiary areas, including all over the world.
:25:31. > :25:35.That's why inquiries like this can generally take several years.
:25:35. > :25:40.Another thing they will be asking is what did the executive officer
:25:40. > :25:45.know and when did they know it? Did they participate in any of the
:25:45. > :25:49.wrongdoing? Did they authorise any of the improper payments? Did they
:25:49. > :25:52.have knowledge of the impour payments but failed to put a stop
:25:52. > :25:56.to them, they're some of the questions that will be asked.
:25:56. > :26:01.Metropolitan Police tonight issued a statement saying no more than ten
:26:01. > :26:06.officers were used in the raids on journalists. They added that they
:26:06. > :26:16.don't believe that the level of resources on the inquiries is in
:26:16. > :26:23.any way dis proportionate to the task in hand. With me is Dominick
:26:23. > :26:28.Mohan and Charlotte Harris, and Michael Wolff who wrote biography
:26:28. > :26:34.of Rupert Murdoch. It's hardly a witch-hunt if the police follow the
:26:34. > :26:39.evidence and go where it leads and make an arrest if necessary.
:26:39. > :26:43.everything in proportion. Of course there probably has been some
:26:43. > :26:50.wrongdoing, but it is the way it is done. We now live in a country,
:26:50. > :26:56.where I can't believe and your listeners won't believe where Abu
:26:56. > :26:59.Qatada can walk free but the police are banging up the journalists. Ten
:26:59. > :27:06.officers per arrest. 15 police officers this weekend at a time
:27:06. > :27:14.where there are drugs going on. Do we really need 50 coppers? But even
:27:14. > :27:20.if Abu Qatada is a case that gets people worked up. This is
:27:20. > :27:26.proportionate? I'm proud to say I know one of them in his 60s. Do
:27:26. > :27:30.they think he will run off. This is ridiculous. It's serious overkill.
:27:31. > :27:35.I don't think that anyone was really going to run away and I
:27:35. > :27:39.agree that ten police officers did seem somewhat excessive. But I
:27:39. > :27:42.don't think that was the only point that the article that has caused
:27:42. > :27:46.all this discussion today was making. And it's quite interesting,
:27:46. > :27:53.because, of course, the Sun have never been particularly
:27:53. > :27:57.proportionate in themselves. that's an excuse, is it.
:27:57. > :28:00.necessary. But to an extent is it rich and interesting watching this
:28:00. > :28:09.shocked response. Of course the police have to follow up. That's
:28:09. > :28:15.very, very important. We spent six years. More police officer than
:28:15. > :28:19.investigated Lockerbie or Madeline McCann, or July 7th. This is a
:28:19. > :28:24.Murdoch smoke screen. This is classic Murdoch stuff. You're
:28:24. > :28:27.missing the entire point. Was there a crime, that's the only issue here.
:28:27. > :28:34.It doesn't really matter how many police officers are devoted to
:28:34. > :28:40.finding a crime if there was a crime. I agree. The crime. Are you
:28:40. > :28:45.guilty? Are you guilty? Michael, you're not listening. I'm saying of
:28:45. > :28:54.course if there is a crime there has to be an investigation. One at
:28:54. > :29:02.a time. One at a time. This is Murdoch stuff. Smoke screen. They
:29:02. > :29:07.pulled police officers off London 2012, beat can you justify that.
:29:07. > :29:11.don't think anybody thinks Mr Ferrari has committed a crime but,
:29:11. > :29:18.Michael, has the information behind this come from News Corp and if so
:29:18. > :29:23.what do you think is going on within that organisation? And I a
:29:23. > :29:27.apologise, I thought Mr Ferrari worked for the Sun. I used to.
:29:27. > :29:31.Clearly this is coming from inside News Corp, but I'll tell you from
:29:31. > :29:35.the American side, what is going on inside this company is that
:29:35. > :29:41.virtually the entire American operation has had it with the Brits.
:29:41. > :29:46.There is no up side that they can say everybody but Rupert himself,
:29:46. > :29:51.that they can see in maintaining the British operation here. The
:29:51. > :29:56.British operation, from every point of view within News Corp is poison
:29:56. > :30:00.and it will not be rehabilitated. Nobody believes that. They will see
:30:01. > :30:07.it now purely as downside and their approach now, which is different
:30:07. > :30:12.from the past number of years, is to say let it all out. Let these
:30:12. > :30:17.guys sink or swim on the basis of their own performance and their own
:30:17. > :30:22.behaviour. A swamp that needs to be drained. That is what Trevor
:30:22. > :30:27.Kavanagh took on and the implication of what was said there.
:30:27. > :30:30.I thought Trevor's piece was fantastic and I cheered every part.
:30:30. > :30:37.I understand that murder murder murder is still very well thought
:30:37. > :30:43.towards the Sun. He enjoys the Sun but BSkyB is the jewel in the crown.
:30:43. > :30:46.But there is a distinction there. Remember, BSkyB is a separate
:30:46. > :30:54.company which I think they're going to have problems there, but that's
:30:54. > :30:58.a separate company. Right now I'm looking at the subsidiary stkwigs,
:30:58. > :31:04.which is News International. swamp that needs to be drained. Is
:31:04. > :31:08.that the view you have of the Sun? If the evidence shows there have bs
:31:08. > :31:13.mass payments to the police, inappropriate payments and evidence
:31:13. > :31:17.has been destroyed then it might be that I adopt that metaphor, but
:31:17. > :31:21.with all of these things you have to be careful that you wait for the
:31:21. > :31:26.charges and deal with these things forensically. In terms of evidence.
:31:26. > :31:30.I think why the police went there in the morning is that in the same
:31:30. > :31:34.organisation, evidence has been destroyed. We've had to go to court
:31:34. > :31:38.on behalf of clients and we've had admissions in the last year from
:31:38. > :31:47.the police that they didn't do enough. And it's been like getting
:31:47. > :31:52.blood out of a stone, trying to find e-mails. Going through a
:31:52. > :31:59.child's pyjama draw? Look, the Sun have made a lot of money on the
:31:59. > :32:04.private information of others that they have published. And so in
:32:04. > :32:13.Kavanagh's article...That's Jealousy. This is nothing to do
:32:13. > :32:18.with jealousy. When hypocrites expose hypocrites. It's payback.
:32:18. > :32:23.it's not payback, it's them being treated like everybody else. Forget
:32:23. > :32:27.the reason, just look at what's going on here. You might as well
:32:27. > :32:31.face this. You might as well begin to judge what's going to happen in
:32:31. > :32:35.the future on the basis of what's happening now. What is the reality?
:32:35. > :32:39.The reality is that the company itself is turning over evidence
:32:39. > :32:44.which the police are acting on. Now that would indicate to me that
:32:44. > :32:52.things are probably pretty bad. You have the company and the police on
:32:52. > :32:56.the same page. Yes, the Sun is the odd man out. I would say the Sun is
:32:56. > :33:01.secured, whether for whatever reasons and they can be debated,
:33:01. > :33:08.but I think what you are looking at here is a serious situation. I
:33:08. > :33:13.don't think the Sun is going to recover. OK, the Sun is secured?
:33:13. > :33:20.It's in huge trouble. Rupert Murdoch is here, I don't think
:33:20. > :33:25.he'll close it. Would you weep if the Sun were to close? Yes, I would.
:33:25. > :33:32.I'd be very upset. Now, let me. Hold on a minute, I want to hear
:33:32. > :33:39.what Charlotte has to say. Was that irony? No, it wasn't. When the News
:33:39. > :33:44.of the World closed I got a message and I sent a message saying "are
:33:44. > :33:48.you having a joke. This can't be true." I didn't want that to happen.
:33:48. > :33:53.I wanted them to change. Is Rupert Murdoch actually in charge then is
:33:53. > :33:57.he the one who will decide whether the sun season stays or goes?
:33:57. > :34:02.think that's the crux of this and I don't think he is in charge, not
:34:02. > :34:06.the way he has been in charge for the 60 years he's run this company.
:34:06. > :34:10.I think the pressures on him in the US are enormous. Greater than
:34:10. > :34:14.they've ever been and I think there are personalities within the
:34:14. > :34:21.company that are nearly as strong as Rupert at this point. And Rupert
:34:21. > :34:27.will be next month 81 by the way. So I think he is fading. I think
:34:27. > :34:33.that he cannot defend this, his sentimental love any more. And I
:34:33. > :34:40.think that he is here and the company, his American executives --
:34:40. > :34:43.and some who - and some who will be here with him are here to figure
:34:43. > :34:49.out what to do. And the solution I think in the Guardian is the best
:34:49. > :34:56.alternative they have, which is to sell the Sun, take that money. Put
:34:56. > :35:02.it into a trust for the Times and the Sunday Times and leave Britain
:35:02. > :35:10.with his head held up. Thank you very much. A year after the Arab
:35:10. > :35:18.Spring we have a series of films this week. Firstly, we are in Egypt
:35:18. > :35:25.whose revolution was often symbolised by young women. A year
:35:25. > :35:29.later, where did the dreams go? Tahrir Square has lost the drama
:35:29. > :35:34.and the crowds. Recent demonstrations have moved on to
:35:34. > :35:39.outside individual ministries in the city. Leaving here a forlorn
:35:39. > :35:46.scene of abandonment and broken dreams for women. A far cry from
:35:46. > :35:51.the early days when the women of Egypt defied the stereotype and
:35:51. > :35:55.stood shoulder-to-shoulder in support of the revolution. But from
:35:55. > :36:01.the beginning this was deemed unacceptable by those who were and
:36:01. > :36:06.still are in charge. TRANSLATION: had been in the city since January
:36:06. > :36:09.25th because I wanted to bring about all the aims of the
:36:09. > :36:15.revolution. A new constitution and see Hosni Mubarak put on trial
:36:15. > :36:20.along with others in the ministry. On March 9, the Army attacked a
:36:20. > :36:23.group of women, including Samira, outside the Kentucky Fried Chicken
:36:23. > :36:28.on the edge of the square. They were dragged by their hair,
:36:28. > :36:37.handcuffed to the railings and taken to the military prison and
:36:37. > :36:44.beaten and tortured. Samira says some died and a woman doctor
:36:44. > :36:50.carried out virjinty tests on those who-sur- vived. She told me to take
:36:50. > :36:54.off my clothes and carried out the test in front of the soldiers. It
:36:54. > :36:59.humiliated me. I had gone to the square to call for freedom and they
:36:59. > :37:04.were making me pay the price. was to get worse. TRANSLATION:
:37:04. > :37:11.woman then said, the military officer in charge wants to test you
:37:11. > :37:16.himself. I was made to strip again. This was sexual abuse. If a man
:37:16. > :37:21.forces you to take your clothes off and puts his hand up into your
:37:21. > :37:25.private area and leaves it there for five minutes, this is sexual
:37:25. > :37:31.abuse. What do you think they were trying to tell you and the others
:37:31. > :37:35.by treating you in this way? If you take to the streets in the name of
:37:35. > :37:41.revolution or call for freedom or social justice they were telling us
:37:41. > :37:46.we will violate your honour. Using a bizarre kind of logic, the Army
:37:46. > :37:51.later admitted they had orderrd the test because men and women had been
:37:51. > :37:57.in the square together. The Army didn't want to be blamed for any
:37:57. > :38:04.woman who might have lost her virginity in the square, in a
:38:04. > :38:09.country where a women not to be a virgin before marriage can lose her
:38:09. > :38:13.life. Samira is the only one to have taken the matter to court and
:38:13. > :38:19.to have returned to Tahrir Square. None of the other women have been
:38:19. > :38:26.seen her again. As you can see, very few women are here now. Nine
:38:26. > :38:32.months later, the scandal of the virginity testing was matched only
:38:32. > :38:40.by the savage woman whose clothes were important back to reveal her
:38:40. > :38:49.bra. It was suggested she was a religious Conservative and men and
:38:49. > :38:55.women marched in the streets in outrage. Hadir was one of those who
:38:55. > :39:00.protested and officers asked her to meet a Major General nearby in a
:39:00. > :39:05.Government building. She agreed. TRANSLATION: They pushed into into
:39:05. > :39:10.a room which turned out to be a torture room. There were already
:39:10. > :39:14.girls inside who were being beaten and violated. The officers were
:39:14. > :39:21.using their sticks to brutally beat us and they were enjoying what they
:39:21. > :39:24.were doing and asked us, "What hurts the most?" it was clear they
:39:25. > :39:30.were targeting girls more than anyone else to make us afraid and
:39:30. > :39:36.because they wanted to make men in the square feel humiliated and
:39:36. > :39:41.defeated for being unable to protect us. Women may have been
:39:41. > :39:48.frightened into taking a lower profile in the square, but north of
:39:48. > :39:54.Cairo, hodia, a 43-year-old doctor and mother of four, is being mobbed
:39:54. > :39:59.like a popstar. The newly elected MP for the Muslim Brotherhood, is
:39:59. > :40:06.going on a walk about in her new constituency in the Egyptian delta.
:40:06. > :40:13.Why do they like you so much. "I was born here, she explains and
:40:13. > :40:19.people know and like me. She'll fight for our rights. Adding that
:40:19. > :40:25.their last MP made promises but did nothing. Hodia is a respected local
:40:25. > :40:29.doctor, but she is also reaping the benefit of what the Muslim
:40:29. > :40:33.Brotherhood was doing at a local level, building up their support
:40:33. > :40:39.during the Mubarak years. They built hospitals, sheltered the
:40:39. > :40:45.orphans and handed out food to the poor. Transtran I know she's able
:40:45. > :40:50.to do a lot. Her party suffered in the past. Now they should be given
:40:50. > :40:56.a chance. I hope she will work to make this country better. But the
:40:57. > :41:02.Muslim Brotherhood is known as the party that expects women to dress
:41:02. > :41:05.modestly and preferrably stay at home. But will she fight for
:41:05. > :41:10.women's rights? TRANSLATION: From now on I believe that we will see
:41:10. > :41:15.change. We will see the start of real democracy here in Egypt in a
:41:15. > :41:19.way that allows all citizens, including women to join in, knowing
:41:19. > :41:23.that the new politics is uncorrupted and based on rights for
:41:23. > :41:26.all. Therefore I think that the participation of women and their
:41:26. > :41:35.impact in the Parliament in the coming period will be completely
:41:35. > :41:42.different. She's so genuine and reassuring you want to hug her. But,
:41:42. > :41:49.as a woman MP, she is part of a tiny minority. Only nine women were
:41:49. > :41:53.elected to sit in the 508-seat Parliament, which is dominated by
:41:53. > :41:59.their bearded colleagues. More than 70% of the seats are held by the
:41:59. > :42:04.Muslim Brotherhood and by the more hard- line Salafi Party. Ironically,
:42:04. > :42:10.there were more women here during the Mubarak era when women had a
:42:10. > :42:19.quota of 64 seats. The Islamic parties are in charge in Egypt
:42:19. > :42:23.today. Which makes Bouthaina Kamel, a former television presenter, an
:42:23. > :42:29.unlikely candidate in the next press tensionial elections. We
:42:29. > :42:36.caught up with her on the election trail. She is standing, she says
:42:36. > :42:44.because she wants to give women an idea of one day where they might go.
:42:44. > :42:48.But she knows a non- scarf-wearing candidate doesn't stand a chance.
:42:48. > :42:55.And the votes only show that women in Egypt don't vote for women.
:42:55. > :43:00.Women make up 60% of Egypt society and the percentage of literacy in
:43:00. > :43:07.women is 07%. It is said that men and women don't know how to vote
:43:07. > :43:13.and the number of female candidate its was very low. Beside, all the
:43:13. > :43:18.political alliances have an Islamic bias which is determined to lower
:43:18. > :43:24.the status of women. A number of constitutional reforms have been
:43:24. > :43:31.created without a single woman on it. Do the more secular women of
:43:31. > :43:35.Egypt have reason to the fearful? I asked the spokesman for the Salafi
:43:35. > :43:40.Party, but he wanted to talk about the religious rights of women,
:43:40. > :43:46.those who completely cover themselves. TRANSLATION: What about
:43:46. > :43:51.the woman who wears the hib yab, who has been so discriminated in
:43:51. > :43:57.the past who was prevented from entering university or being on the
:43:57. > :44:04.teaching staff. Also they prospect' allowed to work in television. In
:44:04. > :44:09.medical professions they suffered systematic persecution. In this
:44:09. > :44:14.Parliament no-one will be forced into anything but we now have a
:44:14. > :44:19.greater chance to advise women of the rules of our religion, such as
:44:19. > :44:23.wearing a headscarf. Is Egypt about to become an Iran or Saudi Arabia
:44:23. > :44:29.in its treatment of women? No-one knows quite what to expect when the
:44:29. > :44:39.new Government is due to take over in the summer, but some women are
:44:39. > :44:42.nervous. In axe Alexandra, Egypt's second city, Aida Noureldin, a
:44:42. > :44:48.lawyer is taking radical action. She is setting up another
:44:48. > :44:53.Parliament. TRANSLATION: Women were just used as voting blocks in these
:44:53. > :45:00.last elections and we do not have any women from Alexandra in the new
:45:00. > :45:04.Parliament. So we decided to create a parallel Parliament, which will
:45:04. > :45:07.consist of mostly women and some men and youth, in order to share
:45:07. > :45:13.the national responsibility with the members of the official
:45:13. > :45:20.Parliament. Andlets to keep an eye on what they -- and also to keep an
:45:20. > :45:25.eye on what they do. At the first meeting of the working party of the
:45:25. > :45:30.so-called parallel Parliament, the woman in the skhraver could be
:45:30. > :45:36.forgiven for ask, "Who is going to listen to us?" the fear is no-one.
:45:36. > :45:39.But they conclude it will be good pictures. We'll be in a better
:45:39. > :45:43.position to field candidates for the next Parliament, they say,
:45:43. > :45:48.whenever that might be. Many women here are being asked to wait for
:45:48. > :45:52.what they had hoped would be the rewards of their revolution. Not
:45:52. > :45:57.least the women in the square who complain that they got beaten up,
:45:57. > :46:03.just like the men. And it's not fair that they should be sent back
:46:03. > :46:07.home. But women like Samira, who is still fighting her court case
:46:07. > :46:13.against the army officer who carried out the virginity test says
:46:13. > :46:17.the battle is not lost yet. TRANSLATION: The Army and the
:46:17. > :46:21.Muslim Brotherhood are in control here and the reason why women
:46:21. > :46:30.weren't elected is because the revolution isn't over. It's still
:46:30. > :46:38.going on. Sue Lloyd Roberts reporting. While we've been on air
:46:38. > :46:41.we've had news that the ratings agency, have put France on a
:46:41. > :46:47.negative outlook. The Chancellor of the Exchequer has released a
:46:47. > :46:51.statement saying this is a reality check for anyone who thinks Britain
:46:51. > :46:56.can duck confronting its debts. Stephanie is on the phone. How
:46:56. > :47:03.significant is this? It's obviously not welcome for the Government. And
:47:03. > :47:08.it shows you can have a shadow hang nk over your triple A rating if
:47:08. > :47:12.your economy is not growing fast enough. That's one of the things
:47:12. > :47:17.Moodies has highlighted in this assessment. But I should say it's
:47:17. > :47:24.not a downgrade and they haven't put us on negative watch which
:47:24. > :47:30.would be a 50% chance that the UK would lose its A triple A in the
:47:30. > :47:34.future. It means there's a roughly one in three chance of losing the
:47:34. > :47:40.triple A in the next few months. And France has had the same
:47:40. > :47:47.treatment. There are nine countries that Moodies have reassess. Three
:47:47. > :47:52.of them, Austria, the UK and France have triple As. And others, like
:47:52. > :47:56.Spain and Portugal have actually been downgraded. So we've not been
:47:56. > :48:01.singled out, but it is interesting we've been included in that group,
:48:01. > :48:05.because in the past when the countries have been looked at the
:48:05. > :48:10.UK was not included. They've not thought we would be directly
:48:10. > :48:19.included in what is going on in the euro zone. Thank you very much.
:48:19. > :48:23.I'll be back with more of this I'll be back with more of this
:48:23. > :48:29.tomorrow, good night. Good evening. Mild north-westerly
:48:29. > :48:35.winds off the Atlantic will keep temperatures up through the night.
:48:35. > :48:42.Drizzle in the far north of Scotland and damp patches in the
:48:42. > :48:47.south-east but elsewhere dry. And tomorrow, hazy sunshine around. One
:48:47. > :48:51.or two showers into Norfolk and Suffolk, but most areas will
:48:51. > :48:57.continue with sunshine after a damp start.
:48:57. > :49:03.Eight or nine degrees possible in Wales where you're sheltered from
:49:03. > :49:07.the wind but the wind will bring patchy Wales across the far north
:49:07. > :49:14.during the afternoon. Also showers in Northern Ireland, but the
:49:14. > :49:19.southern areas will stay drier and brighter. It turns showery across
:49:19. > :49:23.western Scotland during the day. Tuesday in Wednesday, not a huge
:49:23. > :49:29.amount of changes, Belfast is reporting drizzle on Wednesday, an