:00:08. > :00:14.Tonight - hacking, a newspaper axed, falling sales, and an ongoing
:00:14. > :00:17.bribery investigation - the British press is in crisis as never before.
:00:17. > :00:27.Forty years after flying in to buy the Sun, Rupert Murdoch is back to
:00:27. > :00:33.try and save it but are his shareholders losing patience?
:00:33. > :00:37.corps was phone as good news and bad news and toxic news.
:00:37. > :00:41.Do we need to protect our newspapers, or have they had their
:00:41. > :00:47.day? Also tonight, celebrations a year after the uprising began in
:00:47. > :00:51.Libya. But though Gaddafi has gone, brutality and divisions remainment
:00:51. > :00:57.TRANSLATION: I received an an anonymous call telling me my son
:00:57. > :01:00.was shot and his body was on the beach. We'll discuss the mixed
:01:00. > :01:05.blessings the Arab Spring has brought across the region. Is this
:01:05. > :01:15.job advert the solution to Britain's unemployment problem? Is
:01:15. > :01:18.
:01:18. > :01:24.it valuable experience or just Good evening. 97 years ago Keith
:01:24. > :01:30.myrhh myrhh came to work in London as a reporter, tonight his son flew
:01:30. > :01:34.in prepared to address the staff at his newspapers tomorrow. Does the
:01:34. > :01:39.industry that laid the foundation of the global myrhh myrhh empire
:01:39. > :01:45.even have a future? Newspapers are battling falling sales, legal
:01:45. > :01:52.defeats and arrests. The House of Lords suggest the subsidies might
:01:52. > :01:56.be needed for the investigative journalism a democracy needs.
:01:56. > :02:04.Read all about it! Rupert flies in to meet the staff they fear he
:02:04. > :02:08.might drop them in the mire. Journalism is in jeopardy. You
:02:08. > :02:12.might not need to stop the presses, they could be grinding to a halt
:02:12. > :02:15.anyway. According to a House of Lords committee, there's a crisis
:02:16. > :02:22.over investigative journalism - the sort that digs out material,
:02:22. > :02:25.Government, corporations the powerful, would prefer would be
:02:25. > :02:31.kept hidden. Serious investigative journalism is changing. In the past
:02:31. > :02:34.year the wireed world has brought us the wholesale revelations of
:02:34. > :02:42.Wikileaks and information disk about MPs expenses. Both stories
:02:42. > :02:46.were bought by newspapers, but both needed journalist toss mediate. The
:02:46. > :02:50.Lords said the expense exclusive brings the point. They needed a
:02:50. > :02:55.huge amount of work to analyse that disk, they need to be experts in
:02:55. > :02:59.data analysis and unrolling the story over time of the number of
:02:59. > :03:04.journalists engaipblgdz obthat story was enormous. It takes time
:03:04. > :03:09.to stand up a story Time and expertise and resource, basically,
:03:09. > :03:15.yes. The problem is declieping circulation. The national press,
:03:15. > :03:20.down by a quarter over seven million in a decade. Revenues
:03:20. > :03:25.moving elsewhere, journalism going digital and trying to work out how
:03:25. > :03:30.to make money in the progress. A media analyst maintaining
:03:30. > :03:33.investigative work can flourish scales of journalists have to be
:03:33. > :03:39.turned to the analysts to the massive amount of Government data
:03:39. > :03:44.that is produced. We are living in an era the ability to put the data
:03:45. > :03:49.and come up with stories is rich. Snees the sort of thing your
:03:49. > :03:53.company is involved in. Who will pay for a journalist to take a
:03:53. > :04:01.flight overseas, to meet a source? You don't understand how the expert
:04:01. > :04:05.networks of today have developed. We are a looking at worldwide
:04:05. > :04:09.networks. Everyone I know in journalism, economics, or academic
:04:09. > :04:15.life has got an expert network which is vast and always growing.
:04:15. > :04:18.Someone always has to foot the bill. At News International the Sun has
:04:18. > :04:22.long seemed a strange bed fellow for the Times and Sunday Times.
:04:22. > :04:26.While the Sun's profits paid for the losses the Times people held
:04:26. > :04:31.their noses. After this week's arrests however the Sun could
:04:31. > :04:35.become a legal lieability. It reported today, News Corporation's
:04:35. > :04:40.passed the police claims the Sun has regularly been paying public
:04:40. > :04:43.officials as much as �10,000. A Sun journalists are talking of hiring a
:04:43. > :04:46.human rights lawyer to defend themselves against their own
:04:46. > :04:50.company. We've been contacted by journalists
:04:50. > :04:55.who are anxious about their futures at News International and who fear
:04:55. > :05:00.there are going to be more arrests. We've been contacted by a number of
:05:00. > :05:04.members of the public, who have been sources at some point in their,
:05:04. > :05:09.in recent years to journalists at News International, and they fear
:05:09. > :05:12.their confidentiality is being compromiseed and they simply don't
:05:12. > :05:17.understand how their details and their relationships with the
:05:17. > :05:22.journalists have been surrendered by the company. Lord Clement-Jones
:05:22. > :05:27.says the legal uncertainties are a problem? I think it cast a pall on
:05:27. > :05:33.the future. This is why we've gone into detail about the way that, for
:05:33. > :05:39.instance the DPP should look at charging journalists in these
:05:39. > :05:42.circumstances. We think a set of guidelines and in fact, they have
:05:42. > :05:48.accepted the need for guidelines on prosecution, that's important.
:05:48. > :05:53.what is and isn't in the public interest? Absolutely. It looks how
:05:53. > :05:58.the newspaper itself behaves. it pay a public official under the
:05:58. > :06:03.criteria? That will be extremely doubtful F there was a scandal
:06:03. > :06:07.uncovered, only through that process, then the DPP might decide
:06:07. > :06:12.although an offence had been been committed, technically he did not
:06:12. > :06:17.wish to prosecute. While Leveson winds on the Lords and legendary
:06:17. > :06:20.hacks threat about the future. Rupert Murdoch will likely issue
:06:20. > :06:24.soothing words tomorrow, he is sentimental about his newspapers.
:06:24. > :06:28.It is journalism of the expensive investigative kind that revealed
:06:28. > :06:33.the scandal which could yet see Fleet Street go foot.
:06:33. > :06:40.With me is the jourp list, Joan Smith formerly of the Sunday Times
:06:40. > :06:44.which has been a victim of phone hacking. Phil Hall of the News of
:06:44. > :06:47.the World and Carla Buzasi, from The Huffington Post. How do you
:06:47. > :06:51.think Rupert Murdoch will handle things in Wapping in the morning?
:06:51. > :06:56.It is difficult for him. He was a great campaigner in his own right
:06:56. > :07:00.when he took over the business. He will have contradictions deep in
:07:00. > :07:04.his soul, because you would expect a newspaper to fight in the
:07:04. > :07:07.application by any authority to find out who their sources are. It
:07:07. > :07:11.is cornerstone, underpins newspapers that they have the right
:07:11. > :07:18.to protect their sources. Now he was amendment revealing sources to
:07:18. > :07:21.the police. So, for the people who work at the Sun, there's the
:07:21. > :07:26.journalistic principle, like every other journalist is brought up, and
:07:26. > :07:30.the feeling the amendment is shopping them? I have a business,
:07:30. > :07:34.with people, whistle-blowers, would you go to News International to
:07:34. > :07:38.somebody who doesn't want to be identified who is potentially going
:07:38. > :07:42.to find the people who run the company to identify them f you're
:07:43. > :07:48.unable to break stories, in the newspaper you're finished. Is it as
:07:48. > :07:52.broad as that is this Two separate things, one we have a problem about
:07:52. > :07:56.investigative journalism and that's about resource, and about agenda.
:07:56. > :08:00.So newspapers have moved away from the expensive thing of doing,
:08:00. > :08:05.investigations which take months if not years, looking at for example,
:08:05. > :08:08.the Guardian's investigation to phone hacking. These stories don't
:08:08. > :08:13.produce instant results and proprietors want that. The rhetoric.
:08:13. > :08:18.All this is getting overblown. When I worked for the Sunday Times, we
:08:18. > :08:23.had a good story if true, we're hearing a lot about how sources are
:08:23. > :08:27.handed over, and journalists are being betrayed. We don't know
:08:27. > :08:31.that's what has happened. What the News International committee who is
:08:31. > :08:35.looking into this, they are looking at payments of maybe tens of
:08:35. > :08:39.thousands to people, who were coverting effectively on the
:08:39. > :08:44.paper's pay roll and employers didn't know that, and they were
:08:44. > :08:50.public servants. We don't know, at the moment which of those things is
:08:50. > :08:54.predominating, and I don't think this is about somebody having lunch
:08:54. > :08:59.with somebody and that's handed over to the police, it is more
:08:59. > :09:04.serious. If it is as serious ending up with the demise of the Sun, you
:09:04. > :09:13.as a victim of phone hacking, would you mourn its loss? This is the
:09:13. > :09:17.trouble with binary opposition. The question is it is not do we have
:09:17. > :09:20.sensationalism journalism, used criminal methods, or do we have no
:09:20. > :09:25.journalism at all. We want investigative journalism, Rupert
:09:25. > :09:31.Murdoch does not have to close the Sun, he didn't have to close the
:09:31. > :09:35.News of the World, he had to ensure ethical standards were followed
:09:35. > :09:39.followed and they could flourish in the end.
:09:39. > :09:44.Presumably a website like yours, would stand to be the winner, if
:09:44. > :09:49.this is the death knell for newspapers? When the News of the
:09:49. > :09:52.World closed last year, which was the week you launched, people said
:09:52. > :09:57.there's a whole new audience who will log on your website. That's
:09:57. > :10:00.not how I see t people are buying their newspapers, but they're
:10:00. > :10:04.getting news from websites and they're using the two. It would be
:10:05. > :10:08.sad if we saw the demise of all the newspaper brands we've grown up
:10:08. > :10:11.with, and love in this country. Website like the The Huffington
:10:11. > :10:15.Post and others which will launch in the years to come, are are, this
:10:15. > :10:19.is where the media's going, this is the future, but lots of the
:10:19. > :10:24.publications have digital arms as well, which are important to the
:10:24. > :10:32.future of their businesses. Phil Hall the old-fashioned newspaper,
:10:32. > :10:36.how much trouble is it? Newspapers feel set the agenda and the
:10:36. > :10:40.internet, will take it up and run with it. The bigger problem is
:10:40. > :10:43.breaking any big story. I was talking to a national newspaper
:10:43. > :10:47.editor and he said I can't break anything, because Twitter will
:10:47. > :10:53.break it out before I do. Their agents or PRs are Twittering it and
:10:53. > :10:59.geting it out there, and control theing, it is hard to break a big
:10:59. > :11:05.story. Without resources, investigative stories don't break.
:11:05. > :11:10.I had a team, and sometimes we would break one story every three
:11:10. > :11:15.months. It is a fatal decline, you souped as if the game is up? It is
:11:15. > :11:21.up as we've known it. They have to change quickly. One of the issues
:11:21. > :11:26.newspapers has had, is that traditional prooperatetors, bought
:11:27. > :11:31.internet businesses and expect them to run as they ran their old
:11:31. > :11:36.industry. You have to let people expert in that field and adapt.
:11:36. > :11:38.you adapt successfully, is there a way to make the newspaper
:11:38. > :11:44.profitable again? The question about business models has been
:11:44. > :11:48.around for a long time. One of the problems is newspapers embrace the
:11:48. > :11:53.internet, rush to place content on the internet and didn't think how
:11:53. > :11:57.they're going to get any return on that. And when people say to me, I
:11:57. > :12:01.will not pay for news on the internet. What I say is you want
:12:01. > :12:05.people to go to places like Afghanistan and Syria, and possibly
:12:05. > :12:10.have their legs blown off and killed and you're not willing to
:12:10. > :12:16.pay access to the website. We have to make people understand, free
:12:16. > :12:19.content on the internet is not free to the people who put it there.
:12:19. > :12:24.foreign journalism, investigative journalism, Carla Buzasi that is
:12:24. > :12:27.the domain of the newspapers? The The Huffington Post isn't known for
:12:27. > :12:31.investigative journalism isn't known at the minute? We're a small
:12:31. > :12:36.operation, but looking at the US arm, who have hundreds of
:12:36. > :12:40.journalists, we've had people in Syria and Greece, and internet
:12:40. > :12:43.newspaper sites like ours, as we grow and build a reputation, that
:12:43. > :12:48.is absolutely is an area we have to play in, because people with coming
:12:48. > :12:55.to expect us to break the stories. Is that the future, will they pick
:12:55. > :13:01.up the flak? It is developing all the time, newspapers will move on-
:13:01. > :13:05.line, because technology will facilitate that. It will make
:13:05. > :13:08.newspapers more accessible, there are approximates, where you can
:13:08. > :13:12.access The Huffington Post, Facebook and Twitter and newspaper
:13:12. > :13:17.all on the same page. So, it would develop, but newspapers have to
:13:17. > :13:20.develop with it. This model that needs international, that
:13:20. > :13:26.successfully ran, was that the News of the World was known for scoops
:13:26. > :13:30.and investigative journalism, the Sun not so much, but they cross-
:13:30. > :13:33.subsidised? You have to understand the myrhh myrhh's passion for
:13:33. > :13:37.newspapers kept them alive. It doesn't make money, but at the
:13:37. > :13:40.moment he can't sell a company, which has lawsuits going on, and
:13:40. > :13:44.around the clock. Until you know what the value of that is, it will
:13:44. > :13:49.be hard for him to sell those newspapers. At the moment, they're
:13:49. > :13:53.giving him 1% of the profit and 100% of the bad publicity.
:13:53. > :13:57.Something will break. How do you think it will end up for the Sun
:13:57. > :14:01.and News International? I hope, I'm a journalist, I don't want to see
:14:01. > :14:05.newspapers close. What I do want to see is a different kind of
:14:06. > :14:10.journalism and rebalancing of what people actually are offered to read.
:14:10. > :14:13.I think, newspaper, consumers are in a way passive. If what they're
:14:13. > :14:20.offered is a constant diet of articles about Big Brother, they're
:14:20. > :14:24.not going to be saying, they're not covering the trial of a dissent in
:14:24. > :14:28.bella rus, if you change the balance, that you have the populous
:14:28. > :14:34.stuff, and you have to have newspapers doing the investigations
:14:34. > :14:38.and looking at the workings of: Perhaps there's not popular
:14:38. > :14:42.appetite? It is necessary in a democracy that newspapers do that,
:14:42. > :14:47.and that's why they're zero rate for VAT, that's that's an
:14:47. > :14:50.understanding of the role in society, which goes beyond their
:14:50. > :14:55.commercial existence. To save them, tax breaks this, is what the House
:14:55. > :14:59.of Lords was suggesting today? How do you feel? Looking at that,
:14:59. > :15:02.digital have been forgotten, they hadn't thought about the websites
:15:02. > :15:06.at all. There was interesting things in what came out of the
:15:06. > :15:11.House of Lords today. But they've got to acknowledge digital is a
:15:11. > :15:15.large part of the tri, and it will be bigger going forward. I don't
:15:15. > :15:18.think tax breaks to local newspapers is the answer.
:15:18. > :15:22.Successful newspaper industry has to remain independent. Tax breaks
:15:22. > :15:29.link Government to newspapers, and independence is important if
:15:29. > :15:34.they're to survive. Thank you very much. Now, a stormer erupt on
:15:34. > :15:38.Twitter and Facebook, after a job advert offered a night shift
:15:38. > :15:42.position in Tesco in Suffolk. The pay was listed as jobseeker's
:15:42. > :15:45.allowance plus expenses which would be cheaptor permanent staff. Tesco
:15:45. > :15:50.admitted it made a mistake and the job was work experience, offered as
:15:50. > :15:54.part of a Government scheme. But should that work experience be paid
:15:54. > :16:00.at the going rate? Liz Mackean has been looking into it. An
:16:00. > :16:05.opportunity to work for Britain's largest private sector employer -
:16:05. > :16:12.the job based in East Anglia is for the niest shift. If the hoursant
:16:13. > :16:20.punishing enough, consider the pay, instead of wages, you keep your
:16:20. > :16:26.jobseeker's allowance, that's �53 .43 a week, way below the minimum
:16:26. > :16:31.wage. Tesco say the advert is a mistake and is being rectified. The
:16:31. > :16:35.error was to describe the job as "permanent" when it is part of a
:16:35. > :16:39.Government work experience scheme. So the whole thing was a clerical
:16:39. > :16:44.error by Jobcentre Plus, which operates the scheme and it's
:16:44. > :16:51.protected a fewer yu. One of many comments told Tesco it was
:16:51. > :16:59.exploiting the jobless. It highlights the scheme is allowing
:16:59. > :17:04.employer to take on a workforce paid for by tax pairs. Searching a
:17:04. > :17:09.job site, we came across many errors, offers of permanent jobs
:17:09. > :17:15.without wages. A spokesman for the Department of Work and pences told
:17:15. > :17:19.us it was: And the site was amended. The work experience placements
:17:19. > :17:23.target those who need extra help in getting a job. They run for up to
:17:23. > :17:27.eight weeks and unlike the work programme are voluntary. Though
:17:27. > :17:34.anyone not completeing the scheme risks losing benefits. In actual
:17:34. > :17:42.fact all you get for doing the jobs is jobseeker's allowance, and then
:17:42. > :17:46.you're lucky a interview, but no guarantee. That's a company that
:17:47. > :17:52.made �3.8 billion profit last year. It is not right that fer they're
:17:52. > :17:56.forced to do this work for no pay. It is no surprise it is called a
:17:56. > :18:00.form of modern slavery. Certainly not by the Prime Minister, who
:18:00. > :18:04.heaped praise on the scheme on a trip to Asda's last month. On the
:18:04. > :18:10.work experience places, we're doing 250,000 of them, we're finding
:18:10. > :18:13.within two months, half of them are coming off benefit. There's a
:18:13. > :18:18.relatively inexpensive scheme. big companies are distanceing
:18:18. > :18:22.themselves. Water stons told usz, us it does not encourage work for
:18:22. > :18:28.no pay and is not involved in this scheme. When it discovered one of
:18:28. > :18:36.the stores was involved, it ordered it to stop. Sainsbury's which
:18:36. > :18:40.operates its own initiative called You Can, says last year over 4,300
:18:40. > :18:44.colleagues were retained following a placement. The Government says it
:18:44. > :18:48.is part of the public good. But what about those taking part? The
:18:48. > :18:53.Government say they're getting the experience they need to help them
:18:53. > :18:57.find jobs, and with young people in particular, so badly affected by
:18:57. > :19:04.rising unemployment, the coalition is under pressure to show its range
:19:04. > :19:08.of work programmes, are themselves, working. The DWP is considering how
:19:08. > :19:14.to extend the scheme to some of they say on disability benefits, if
:19:14. > :19:18.they're judged able to work. Added sorrow cats say there are wider
:19:18. > :19:24.benefits to the programme. There is a slight programme large firms such
:19:24. > :19:29.as Tesco may sues this as a way of getting short-term labour, at the
:19:29. > :19:34.taxpayers expense. But that's gravely overstated, that any such
:19:34. > :19:37.problem that does exist, will get weighed by the benefits the
:19:37. > :19:42.jobseekers get from the programme. It sorts out the problems that dend
:19:42. > :19:46.to exist, where you get a black market with people claiming
:19:46. > :19:50.benefits while at the same time working informally in the black
:19:50. > :19:55.economy. Tesco claims 300 young people have gone on to get
:19:55. > :20:02.permanent employment with us, and the scheme is not a replacement or
:20:02. > :20:06.substitute for your permanent staff. The great rate of expansion by the
:20:06. > :20:11.big supermarkets, means they're creating tens of thousands of new
:20:11. > :20:17.jobs. But the accusation that their immense profits are in part built
:20:17. > :20:24.by taxpayer workers is difficult for the political cheerleaders. Is
:20:24. > :20:29.this scheme right? Can it help? Will Straw and Neil O'Brien of
:20:29. > :20:38.Policy Exchange are with me. The question is why should taxpayers
:20:38. > :20:42.money, your money and my money go to Tesco's so it can have shelves
:20:43. > :20:48.done overnight? The New Deal, that means people out of work for a long
:20:48. > :20:51.time, are encourageed to get work experience. If you're on benefit,
:20:51. > :20:54.you can get trapped you can't get a job because you don't have
:20:54. > :20:58.experience. If you let people live on benefits for a long time, it
:20:58. > :21:03.gets harder for them to get into work. All parties have enkourplged
:21:03. > :21:08.them to do the projects. This is, this job, for instance the
:21:08. > :21:13.overnight shift at a Tesco in Suffolk, and we found many jobs
:21:13. > :21:17.like that, advertised on the website, that's not work experience
:21:17. > :21:22.in experience, that is a job that needs to be done, it is not a
:21:22. > :21:26.skilled job? Clearly in this case, a few people, hundreds of people
:21:26. > :21:31.have got jobs at the end of the scheme. We do need to be careful,
:21:31. > :21:35.what the project are for. Is it for a short-term experience, or
:21:35. > :21:39.something that aims to defer people staying on benefits. If it is the
:21:39. > :21:45.later, we need to avoid doing what placements displace other jobs, so
:21:45. > :21:53.we don't take away the jobs at people at Tesco for example. In
:21:53. > :21:58.those schemes, it might be good creating additional like cleaning
:21:58. > :22:04.up schemes, in Australia and US and so on. The underlying principle is
:22:04. > :22:09.in order to get job seek he is allowance, it is good to be doing
:22:09. > :22:12.something in return? I don't think any Government would be opposed to
:22:12. > :22:18.get people off welfare and into work. The problem is you've people
:22:18. > :22:21.out of work for a long time, we now know there's more than a million
:22:21. > :22:25.youth unemployment, and long-term unemployment is going up, where
:22:25. > :22:30.people are out of the workforce for a long time, it is harder to get
:22:30. > :22:33.them back in the Labour force. The question is how do you do that. The
:22:33. > :22:37.Labour Party brought in work experience, but it is not
:22:37. > :22:41.compulsory. This compels you, while it is doing that, it takes you away
:22:41. > :22:45.from other work and training. What Labour had at the last Labour
:22:45. > :22:49.government was the Future Jobs Fund, this is a scheme that gave people
:22:49. > :22:53.proper work for a minimum number of hours a week, properly paid with
:22:53. > :22:56.time to get training, the Government scrapped that scheme,
:22:56. > :23:01.even though it is proved to be successful. That's a difficulty,
:23:01. > :23:05.because the new schemes are open to abuse, as you have shown in the
:23:05. > :23:08.package and cause problems for those trying to get in the Labour
:23:08. > :23:13.market. Is this those already in work that have a better chance of
:23:13. > :23:16.getting the job they want? That's right, I'm absolutely saying, you
:23:16. > :23:21.have to give the people opportunity to get into work. The Future Jobs
:23:21. > :23:25.Fund was finding about 50% people in that scheme were getting back
:23:25. > :23:29.into work. That may not sound a lot, but compared to people who aren't
:23:29. > :23:32.in work, struggling to get in the Labour market. The other thing is
:23:33. > :23:38.the Government did this they claimed to save money. It cost them
:23:38. > :23:43.half a billion pounds a wear yaer to do it. The study, the work
:23:43. > :23:48.provider, and David Miliband did last week, showed the costs of the
:23:48. > :23:53.Exchequer, from higher unemployment benefits, and lost tax revenue,
:23:53. > :23:57.went into the billions. They saved a little bit but lost a lot. How do
:23:57. > :24:01.you feel, the suggestion this will be extend today disabled people,
:24:01. > :24:06.those judge fit to work, what does that mean? You say disabled, these
:24:06. > :24:11.are people fit to work. That broadly speak something a
:24:11. > :24:15.continuation what's gone on before. When you said under last Government,
:24:15. > :24:20.you couldn't be forced you could, that was the right thing to do. The
:24:20. > :24:24.public think this is fair. 80% agree with the idea if you've been
:24:24. > :24:27.on benefit for more than a year, you should be asked to do work in
:24:28. > :24:31.exchange for the benefits. In the since sense there are millions of
:24:31. > :24:36.people, going out to work, working hard, not necessarily for a lot of
:24:36. > :24:41.money, and you have some people, not most people on Ben filts, but
:24:41. > :24:46.could be moving into work and aren't at the moment. So if we
:24:46. > :24:51.could get the benefit system to tailor people's problems. If being
:24:51. > :24:55.the operateive word there. There is an image problem, water stons
:24:55. > :24:58.saying it is not good for the reputation, to be involved, if it
:24:58. > :25:03.ends up get ago rolled out to disabled people as well, there will
:25:03. > :25:09.be less takeup for it. Who would want to be associated with it?
:25:09. > :25:13.we need to do is have a tailored system. At the moment for example,
:25:13. > :25:19.the DW., have thousands of people on drug users, in the first
:25:20. > :25:24.interview, in a Jobcentre, we don't ask you for that kind of thing. We
:25:24. > :25:27.don't identify people's problems and segment people's needs of
:25:27. > :25:30.disabilities and the problem is at the moment, we wait for a year to
:25:30. > :25:34.see who get a job We'll discuss if the whole industry is now under
:25:34. > :25:37.threat and do we need to protect our newspapers or have they had
:25:37. > :25:40.their day? And see who doesn't. The problem with that, it is cheap, but
:25:40. > :25:44.if we leave people for a year, after a year, they're rusted and
:25:44. > :25:50.got depressed, it is hard, they have a hole in their CV, so it
:25:50. > :25:56.would be better to target the help and the programmes on day one of
:25:56. > :26:02.their claim. Thank you both. Now, one year ago, something new and
:26:02. > :26:06.unthinkable was beginning on the streets of Benghazi, 40 years of
:26:06. > :26:11.protests, you know how the story ends, at least the story of Gaddafi
:26:11. > :26:20.himself. How will the Libyan story end. At the end of our week of
:26:20. > :26:27.films, Mark Urban has been back to Libya, amid report of lawlessness
:26:27. > :26:34.and torture. Some images are disturbing. It is a time of
:26:34. > :26:39.celebration for the fighters. The other night, different big gaids
:26:39. > :26:47.that seized this city last August, took to the streets, in an
:26:47. > :26:53.exuberant show of force. Who could have foreseen it one year ago?
:26:53. > :27:02.of February, 2011 - this is the day which all people will never forget.
:27:02. > :27:12.They take it this is the date where everybody is born on that day.
:27:12. > :27:14.
:27:14. > :27:21.didn't believe that we have this sort of energy has been exploded at
:27:21. > :27:28.once, in one day in the whole country. We nef thought this
:27:28. > :27:34.revolution was going to succeed because we know the amount of power
:27:34. > :27:39.and what Gaddafi used to do to suppress or to put down any
:27:39. > :27:43.revolution or any movement against him you know. This is Tripoli
:27:43. > :27:49.street in Misrata, the city was attacked by Gaddafi's forces last
:27:49. > :27:54.spring and fighting raged along this axes for months. More than
:27:54. > :28:02.1500 people from Misrata, died in the struggle. And as a city emerged
:28:02. > :28:08.with a steely sense of self- reliance. They all went to the
:28:08. > :28:12.front line together, as friends, as family supporting each other.
:28:12. > :28:21.Anybody died, they all cried for him. And anybody wounded the all
:28:21. > :28:26.knew him and all cried for him up to now. So, the city, as united as
:28:26. > :28:30.knitted together as one client, and up to now, they still support each
:28:30. > :28:37.other. They are not relying too much on the government, they don't
:28:37. > :28:41.have much from the government. Further down the street, a war
:28:41. > :28:47.museum welcomes pre-school children or passers by, taking pride of
:28:47. > :28:56.place outside is a sculpture seized from Gaddafi's compound - a trophy
:28:56. > :29:03.brought back by militias and symbol of and an old centralised system of
:29:03. > :29:06.power smashed. All this destructive power at his disposal was obviously
:29:06. > :29:10.enormously invigorateing for the country people still have
:29:10. > :29:15.tremendous positive feeling about the revolution x But what you're
:29:15. > :29:20.also hearing increasingly, is concerns being expressed by the
:29:20. > :29:26.apparent grip or leadership at the top, and fears the gains of the
:29:26. > :29:31.revolution might be squandered. In Libya though, with victory has come
:29:31. > :29:36.revenge. We went to a camp on the outskirts of Tripoli to meet
:29:36. > :29:44.members of this tribe who fled their homes. They gave this footage
:29:44. > :29:48.of an attack when eight people were killed at the camp. The tribe blame
:29:49. > :29:53.the militia for chasing 30,000 of them out of their homes, and
:29:53. > :30:02.pursueing some here. Most now are too frieltened to be filmed, and
:30:02. > :30:08.the authorities wouldn't let us in. But Attiya Mahjoub told us how his
:30:08. > :30:11.13-year-old son had been killed. TRANSLATION: I received an an
:30:11. > :30:15.anonymous call in the middle of the night telling my son was shot and
:30:15. > :30:19.his body was on the beach. I was too afraid to go there at midnight
:30:19. > :30:28.and went the next morning, but I couldn't find it. The police
:30:28. > :30:34.informed me my son's body was at the hospital.
:30:34. > :30:41.The accusation is war crimes, the Government say there's little they
:30:41. > :30:47.can do to protect the refugees. They went on Monday's attack, came
:30:47. > :30:53.here, but he said we can't do anything. We will try to save you,
:30:53. > :31:01.we will try to bring these people away, we stayed five days, nobody
:31:01. > :31:06.came here to save us. The militias have kept unit in Tripoli and in
:31:06. > :31:14.common with other armed groups, they stand accused of operating as
:31:14. > :31:18.a law on themselves. Asked about alleged attacks on the tribe,
:31:18. > :31:24.representatives emphasised the crimes of Gaddafi's followers.
:31:25. > :31:29.we went nobody was there, they had left, they've done a crime, we will
:31:29. > :31:37.never slaughter them as you mentioned, we would nef do that.
:31:37. > :31:43.And we will never do this to any other Libyans. We captureed them
:31:43. > :31:48.and take them to the justice. charge of persecuting those
:31:48. > :31:52.suspected of backing the old order, runs broader than one tribe. This
:31:52. > :31:57.is one of dozens of makeshift prisons across the country, where
:31:57. > :32:01.the revolution stands accused of locking up more than 8,000 people.
:32:01. > :32:07.There have been allegations of torture, and detainees have no idea
:32:07. > :32:11.when they might be tried or released. All of which is very
:32:11. > :32:18.awkward for the foreign allies. made it clear to the Government and
:32:18. > :32:23.to the NTC, on the occasions when this issue has arisen. It is hugely
:32:23. > :32:30.important to us. That they do, differentiate themselves from the
:32:30. > :32:37.previous regime. That they do, in practice, follow through on what
:32:37. > :32:43.they have been consistent in saying publicly, that they support the
:32:43. > :32:47.highest international standards of human rights. And that they address
:32:47. > :32:54.those problems that arise, those incidents that arise where
:32:54. > :32:59.allegations are made of mistreatment, torture. A sense that
:32:59. > :33:05.scores are settled, and security somewhat tenuous, can be felt in
:33:05. > :33:11.the country's banks. I think the security is OK now.
:33:11. > :33:18.Because, there's some security of the bank. There's every day, three
:33:18. > :33:24.or four people with guns, and it is OK. But, it is dangerous to get
:33:24. > :33:32.dollars in the bank. Businesses complain of a shortage of cash to
:33:32. > :33:36.pay staff. The situation exacerbated by 15 dina bills handed
:33:36. > :33:44.in today. The high denomination notes was thought to be used by
:33:44. > :33:48.Gaddafi supporters or hoarded by those fears the worse. For
:33:48. > :33:53.businessmen, a shortage of cash is one of the biggest daily challenges.
:33:53. > :33:58.He made a major investment, in this new electronic shop in Tripoli.
:33:58. > :34:04.But he's delighted that old-style Gaddafi crony capitalism is gone.
:34:04. > :34:10.For example I can, within one day, I can make all the documents to
:34:10. > :34:14.make a new company. To run a new business. For example,
:34:14. > :34:23.I will not get projects soon because we know the financial
:34:23. > :34:30.problem in the country is still not stable. But at least, I can set
:34:30. > :34:35.myself up to be ready for getting project. That sense of a Government
:34:35. > :34:40.that is yet to charter course, is Mirrored on the wider scale. The
:34:40. > :34:45.country has huge oil and gas revenues, so imports are flowing in.
:34:45. > :34:51.But hundreds of old Government contracts are now on hold,
:34:51. > :34:54.unemployment remains high, and this is a reluctance to be taken bf
:34:54. > :35:00.June's elections produce a new gaest. Do the Libyans understand
:35:00. > :35:05.what their Government is doing? Not terribly well, I have to be honest.
:35:05. > :35:13.That whole progress between Government and people, is still a
:35:13. > :35:18.work in progress. For pretty good reasons. One, the first is the
:35:18. > :35:22.current depast has a list of priorities - government has a list
:35:22. > :35:29.of priorities had a would daunt most of us. Communicating what it
:35:29. > :35:32.is doing, is important for it, but not right at the top. At Misrata
:35:32. > :35:39.Airport, south of the city, the particlelies of central Government
:35:39. > :35:42.has led them to take matters into their own hands. Local donations
:35:43. > :35:47.have paid for a terminal and international services have started.
:35:47. > :35:52.The city authorities, are exercising increasing autonomy.
:35:52. > :36:01.have, to be honest, a mixed feeling about this. But sometimes, at the
:36:01. > :36:08.end, we feel, that things are going to be OK, at the end. We are people,
:36:09. > :36:16.Libyan people, we know ourselves, although a lot of mistakes has been
:36:16. > :36:21.done by NCT, and maybe they're not doing the proper job, but it is
:36:21. > :36:27.important to give them enough time. Time is still short. I mean, they
:36:27. > :36:32.didn't have enough time, even this transitional government, they
:36:32. > :36:37.didn't have enough time to work. Does all this suggest that Misrata
:36:37. > :36:44.or the eastern part of the country might be about to take flight,
:36:44. > :36:48.breaking Libya apart? Most people here insist not. Although it
:36:48. > :36:52.Heralds a difficult job for whoever takes over the national controls in
:36:52. > :36:58.June fl On the outskirts of Misrata, they've gathered together the
:36:58. > :37:05.wrecks of Gaddafi's army. By laying on all this destruction, a hand
:37:05. > :37:08.full of NATO Government, Britain, Prince pill among them,
:37:08. > :37:15.facilitateed the Libyan revolution. Now the same governments are
:37:15. > :37:21.embarrassed by the revolution's human rights abuses, and bewildered
:37:21. > :37:29.by the Byzantine manoeuvres of those who governed the country. The
:37:29. > :37:34.revolutions outside Backers, is run by a dictatorship, now that's done,
:37:34. > :37:38.power is distributed more fairly, but brutality and mismanagement
:37:38. > :37:43.remain. Beyond the slogans of freedom, there's little sense here
:37:43. > :37:50.that anyone now has a strong vision of how this nation should advance.
:37:50. > :37:54.With me now, the journalist and historian, haste haste haste, Ramy
:37:54. > :37:59.Aly and Rana Jawad. Haste haste haste you were well known as being
:37:59. > :38:05.a critic of intervention in Libya, watching that film, how do you feel
:38:05. > :38:09.today? The best way I can put that is to say a month or two ago, I
:38:09. > :38:13.asked a senior officer, and I was critical of the Libyan intervention,
:38:13. > :38:18.after our experiences of Iraq and Afghanistan, western powers should
:38:18. > :38:24.be cautious about engaging in Muslim societies. I said in terms
:38:24. > :38:29.to the officer, is it time to say sorry, we apologise, it turned out
:38:29. > :38:33.right, he said this story is not over yet. It's a difficult one. But,
:38:33. > :38:37.one thing that made me suspicious of the time of the Libyan
:38:37. > :38:40.intervention was first of all the House of Commons from a hundred per
:38:40. > :38:46.cent in favour. When House of Commons is in favour of anything,
:38:46. > :38:50.it is always wrong. The worst vice of our trade, the media, is we're
:38:50. > :38:54.always saying something must be done. But the question of Libya,
:38:54. > :38:59.which others are better qualified to answer than I am, were we
:38:59. > :39:05.supporting the cause of freedom? Or were we supporting the one faction
:39:05. > :39:08.in a civil war? You were there throughout the conflict, reporting
:39:08. > :39:13.an anonymously, in Tripoli. Is the revolution going wrong? It depends
:39:13. > :39:19.on who you talk to. A lot of pundits, these days feels some
:39:19. > :39:24.things are going wrong. A lot of Western governments who supported
:39:24. > :39:29.the uprising are worried, but Libyans on the grouped will tell
:39:29. > :39:35.you, whatever divisions they have at the moment, are kind of a
:39:35. > :39:41.natural course of a post revolution Libya. So, there is some worry on
:39:41. > :39:47.the ground, certainly. But, I think largely, Libyans are optimistic of
:39:47. > :39:52.what lies ahead. Because in any post-revolution scenario, there are
:39:52. > :39:56.no guarantees, but many believe there are opportunities now, there
:39:56. > :40:00.an opportunity to establish the kind of country or democracy that
:40:00. > :40:03.they've striveing for. The way the intervention began was different
:40:03. > :40:08.from Iraq and Afghanistan, it was an emergency situation. These tanks
:40:08. > :40:13.were on the way to Benghazi and Britain and France averted a
:40:13. > :40:18.massacre? All that is true, and you can't take the parallel too far.
:40:18. > :40:24.Libya is smaller, and theoretically more manageable. But I think our
:40:24. > :40:28.record of getting the things wrong, record of insensitive interventions
:40:28. > :40:32.has been so awful in the last decade we ought to be careful. That
:40:32. > :40:37.doesn't mean we can't take sides or can't take a view about who deserve
:40:37. > :40:42.toss come up. But in just the same way as one looks at Syria, nobody
:40:42. > :40:48.could feel other than a desire to see Assad gone as soon as possible.
:40:48. > :40:53.But my God, one hopes the West can use its leverageage to encourage
:40:53. > :40:59.other Muslim society to get involved in that. Maybe I'm being
:40:59. > :41:02.overcautious, but we got it wrong so oven, to be there again, seems
:41:02. > :41:10.ghastly prospect. Now the opportunity to look more broadly,
:41:10. > :41:14.we have been marking one year since the Arab Spring began, Ramy Aly,
:41:14. > :41:18.look at Egypt disturbing reports of rise of Islam, treatment of women,
:41:18. > :41:23.do you believe some things going wrong, and the revolutions are
:41:23. > :41:26.derailed? I don't think the revolutions are being derailed. I
:41:26. > :41:28.don't think they're Muslim societies as such. There's
:41:29. > :41:34.systematic problems, in it the states, before these transitions,
:41:34. > :41:37.and before the fall of the dictators, they're weak, inept, and
:41:37. > :41:40.incompetent in terms of the institutional struck stur.
:41:40. > :41:44.Therefore after the dictator is left there's a vacuum and inability
:41:44. > :41:49.to control, and that's the demais situations where there has been a
:41:49. > :41:54.Western intervention and in situations where there hasn't been
:41:54. > :41:58.a Western intervention. In Egypt, we like to think, we have a long-
:41:58. > :42:02.standing state institution or set of state institutions, and what
:42:02. > :42:07.we've discovered over the last year, is we don't have such a strong
:42:07. > :42:10.state. In fact, that, the most prominent part of the state is the
:42:10. > :42:14.military establishment. They are now ruling. It is business as usual.
:42:14. > :42:21.And so, will has actually been so institutional change in those
:42:21. > :42:24.states, and that's the problem. That before, the fall of the
:42:24. > :42:28.dictators, you have weak state institutions and that's the case
:42:28. > :42:32.afterwards. But, it is a striking contrast, when you think back to a
:42:32. > :42:38.year ago, we were all sitting reporting on the amazing events.
:42:38. > :42:43.When you look at so many countries in the region, even the homogenous
:42:43. > :42:49.ones, it seems people are more divided today than a year ago?
:42:49. > :42:52.Libyans you talk to, will argue they're not divided in principle,
:42:52. > :42:58.they want a unified country in the future, and they are all working
:42:58. > :43:05.towards the same goal. That is some form of a democratic state, and
:43:05. > :43:10.minus a dictator, this time around. But, I think the divisions we're
:43:10. > :43:16.seeing today is really just a product of what a 42-year
:43:16. > :43:20.dictatorship leaves behind. In Libya, in particular, people forget
:43:20. > :43:26.that because the regime, systematically, did away with any
:43:26. > :43:32.form of civil societies, and institutions, they have very little
:43:32. > :43:36.to build on. They are literally starting from scratch. We can't go
:43:36. > :43:42.on about how Egypt and Tunisia, are having to rebuild the institutions
:43:42. > :43:46.but they have some form of base. What I tend to agree against my own
:43:46. > :43:50.argument is to some degree, it was never going to be easy. At the end
:43:50. > :43:56.of an experience such as Libya has sufd, there was never a chance, it
:43:56. > :44:02.was going to build a society. So, I don't think one could have expected,
:44:02. > :44:06.if you lived in a society Libya has been, revenge, brutality is bound
:44:06. > :44:10.to happen. So that's one has to accept. My concern, which extends
:44:10. > :44:15.to other parts of the Middle East, it is important these societies
:44:15. > :44:19.should be seen to be doing things in their own way, not to have the
:44:19. > :44:23.West. We've had people accusing West getting stuck in Libya because
:44:23. > :44:28.we're interested in the oil. It seems terribly important they
:44:28. > :44:35.shouldn't advance the argument. This is another case of western
:44:35. > :44:40.interference. It would be a no, no, to intervene in Syria and Iraq?
:44:40. > :44:48.is impossible to intervene in Syria, partly because Syria has powerful
:44:48. > :44:52.friends. And in an ideal world, the question is which Muslim society,
:44:52. > :44:56.other Muslim societies will be getting stuck in, and we would be
:44:56. > :45:00.one removed, through a Muslim society, the problem is which
:45:00. > :45:06.Muslim society? Why is there such a concern about Muslim societies, you
:45:06. > :45:11.said the rise of political Islam. Islam is not a problem in of itself.
:45:11. > :45:17.I am not a Islamist in a political sense. I don't see the problems as
:45:17. > :45:20.being attached to some kind of income mensable religious scenario.
:45:20. > :45:25.It is a matter of institutions and state building. It may or may not
:45:25. > :45:30.be in the interest of particular allys to intervene. Thank you very
:45:30. > :45:38.much all of you. Now, just a word about tomorrow's Newsnight, when
:45:38. > :45:47.our economic reporter reports in Greece, how the country is in daing
:45:47. > :45:55.of disintegrating under economic collapse and extremeism. People say
:45:56. > :46:05.that if they're continuing of this, we have buy a gun. That's all from
:46:06. > :46:30.
:46:30. > :46:36.me. Stephanie will be here tomorrow ? Weather come the weekend, at the
:46:36. > :46:42.moment it is mild out there. Maybe a touch of frost around dawn, in
:46:42. > :46:45.Scotland and north-east of England. Frost-free on Friday, rain
:46:45. > :46:50.returning northwards into north west England and Wales. Some
:46:50. > :46:55.persistent so a damp day here. Midlands, East Anglia, mid-
:46:55. > :47:00.afternoon, a lot of cloud, breezy, but temperatures, higher than today.
:47:00. > :47:05.So well up into double figures. The odd spot of drizzle across west
:47:05. > :47:10.Devon and Cornwall. A nuisance there. For Wales, drab, a cloudy
:47:10. > :47:14.and dachness pushing up across Snowdonia, through the day. For
:47:14. > :47:19.norld, persistent rain for a time, but dribs and drabs of rain through
:47:19. > :47:25.the rest of the afternoon. It turns west across Scotland. Miserable
:47:25. > :47:29.here, east of the hills dry and bright, but just as mild as it was
:47:29. > :47:34.on Thursday. Friday and Saturday across northern parts of the UK,
:47:34. > :47:39.change in the weather, turns colder with wintry showers developing by
:47:39. > :47:43.the weekend. Further south, takes longer for the cold weather to