:00:08. > :00:16.Will it take the deaths of foreign journalists in Syria to stir the
:00:16. > :00:19.conscience of the world? The indiscriminate shellings of
:00:19. > :00:23.civilians by the Syrian regime, has all the characteristics of a war
:00:23. > :00:27.crime, many more said to be killed today, including the Sunday Times
:00:28. > :00:33.journalist, Marie Colvin. Do we have any choice, but to stand and
:00:33. > :00:36.watch. We will debate intervention with in Syria with Paul Wolfowitz,
:00:36. > :00:39.Rory Stewart and a leading figure in the Syrian opposition.
:00:40. > :00:45.Austerity, is it the right prescription for Europe's sickness,
:00:45. > :00:50.Sweden's Prime Minister is here to tell us what he thinks of that, and
:00:50. > :00:55.David Cameron's euroveto. And dangerous dogs, Newsnight can
:00:55. > :01:01.reveal, kenneling is costing the police almost �4 million, with a
:01:01. > :01:05.tax increase -- attacks increasing, we will debate whether new laws are
:01:05. > :01:09.needed. REPORTER: Are you aware your dog tried to bite the
:01:09. > :01:19.cameraman? She tried to bite her leg? It looked like that, but she
:01:19. > :01:20.
:01:20. > :01:26.didn't. Good evening, an Arab people,
:01:26. > :01:32.unpopular dictator on his way out and shelling of civilians, when
:01:32. > :01:37.that happened in Benghazi it led to the west bombing them out of power.
:01:37. > :01:41.In the last interview yesterday, Sunday Times reporter, Marie Colvin
:01:41. > :01:46.asked the question we will explore tonight, how can the international
:01:46. > :01:49.community continue to watch what she described as war crime. Our
:01:49. > :01:56.diplomatic editor, Mark Urban is with us, talk us through this.
:01:56. > :02:01.Since a failure at the UN to get a diplomatic solution, the battle has
:02:01. > :02:05.been the focus of the struggle. We can look in more detail now. Syria,
:02:05. > :02:10.many different types of people there. It is a multiconfessional
:02:10. > :02:13.country, if you like, President Assad, basis his support on his own
:02:13. > :02:21.Alawite sect of the Shi'ite community and the Christians. Those
:02:21. > :02:25.two groups are concentrated in the area we have shown in red. The
:02:25. > :02:31.flourishing of armed opposition has been in the area of Homs, one place
:02:31. > :02:37.where the called Free Syrian Army first appeared, and up there on the
:02:37. > :02:40.Turkish border in a town called Idlib. All orders of escalation in
:02:40. > :02:44.activities has happened in recent months, that has seen the
:02:44. > :02:47.Government's forces, which on paper have hundreds of thousands really
:02:47. > :02:51.hard pushed. Why? Because the effective mobile forces they have
:02:51. > :02:56.are much smaller than that. You have the Republican Guard division,
:02:56. > :02:59.the real last line of defence, if you like, in Damascus, protecting
:02:59. > :03:04.the Government itself. But because opposition groups appeared in the
:03:04. > :03:08.suburbs of the city, the fourth mechanised division under the
:03:08. > :03:13.President's brother, has engaged in the last few weeks between Damascus
:03:13. > :03:19.and the Lebanese border, another mechanised division down near the
:03:19. > :03:22.Jordanian border, near the city of Deraa, the 90th Brigade, pretty
:03:23. > :03:27.much a be second rate lot have been left to try to work things out
:03:27. > :03:31.militarily in Homs. Other forces have been sent up towards Idlib.
:03:31. > :03:36.You can see they are very stretched. There is probably no more than
:03:36. > :03:39.40,000 troops in all of those formations added together. The big
:03:39. > :03:42.question is, can the Government regain control? They clearly think
:03:42. > :03:46.they can by military means. There is so much evidence to the contrary.
:03:46. > :03:50.If we look at the situation in the north of the country. Up there you
:03:50. > :03:54.have that town of Idlib, the Turkish border I will emphasise it
:03:54. > :03:59.with a yellow line. Proposals today from the French and others, that
:03:59. > :04:09.Idlib be one of those places that a had you machinetarian corridor will
:04:09. > :04:09.
:04:09. > :04:13.be opened, the Russians oppose that. In there patrols from the Free
:04:13. > :04:16.Syrian Army, this is happening since April they have been asking
:04:16. > :04:20.defectors to come into the northern belt of the country to create a
:04:20. > :04:25.sort of safe haven. All the time the Syrian army has mounted serious
:04:25. > :04:30.attempts to get up there and counter-attack, and it has failed.
:04:30. > :04:34.In the last few days the Free Syrian Army has claimed hundreds of
:04:34. > :04:39.defectors have come across, they have released images. Some people
:04:39. > :04:43.doubt the voracity, some say it looks too farm for these people to
:04:43. > :04:47.be there, when it is near freezing point. They also point out that the
:04:47. > :04:50.Free Syrian Army, although it has the odd senior officer, I will put
:04:50. > :04:54.the outline behind the Brigadier, said to have led the men across.
:04:54. > :04:58.Most of these people, including some of the other officers in the
:04:58. > :05:02.frontline of the photo, who have been put in there to make it look
:05:02. > :05:07.like they are in authority, they are mere pip squeak Lieutenants,
:05:07. > :05:11.they don't have the senior officers, who remain, by and large, loyal to
:05:11. > :05:15.the regime. How is the conflict likely to develop now? It means
:05:15. > :05:18.these very stretched Syrian army forces, the ones they can still
:05:19. > :05:23.rely upon, are left moving about from one emergency to another,
:05:23. > :05:26.never quite getting on top of it. The Free Syrian Army never quite
:05:26. > :05:32.able to get the better of them either. They are trying desperately
:05:32. > :05:36.hard in places like Homs, to seal in the revolt, put the Free Syrian
:05:36. > :05:40.Army symbol on Baba Amr, the suburb of Homs, where there has been so
:05:40. > :05:44.much trouble in the last few weeks. Many say most of their fighters
:05:44. > :05:53.have left that area. The Syrian army, we know, has a large camp to
:05:53. > :05:58.the south, it has mechanised forces. It is also using some of its armour
:05:58. > :06:02.to spwra direct the countryside between Baba Amr and the will he
:06:02. > :06:06.beties border, the infiltration routes, of course, it has been
:06:06. > :06:09.using artillery against the suburb, for fear of sending its people in.
:06:09. > :06:13.This picture of a gun line, released by the Americans a couple
:06:13. > :06:17.of weeks ago. That is in the south of the city, where we showed you
:06:17. > :06:22.the Government tanks are. If we go on further, we see some Government
:06:22. > :06:26.tanks have approached close to Baba Amr. This is on one of the main
:06:26. > :06:33.thorough fairs, it is a main cordon, trying to seal the place off. This
:06:33. > :06:40.is second line stuff, they are not Keith guard formations, they are
:06:40. > :06:43.from the second rate unit here Homs, quite old tanks. Lo and behold
:06:43. > :06:48.pictures coming in south of where that photo was taken. What is
:06:48. > :06:53.happening with the T-62s is the crew have defected. You put them
:06:53. > :06:58.close to the opposition fighters, some will take their chance to
:06:58. > :07:03.defect. Lo and behold we see the Free Syrian Army fighters have
:07:03. > :07:08.taken the heavy machine gun off the top of the tank. That is the danger,
:07:08. > :07:13.if they try to go into the places, their forces might fade away.
:07:13. > :07:17.do we know about the death of the western journalists? Marie Colvin
:07:17. > :07:22.and Remi Ochlik, both killed in Baba Amr, that place we showed the
:07:22. > :07:25.centre of the fighting over the last 18 days, since the heavy
:07:25. > :07:30.bombardment started. They were using a house, which some people
:07:30. > :07:34.call a media centre, it seemed to be a sort of safe house for
:07:34. > :07:38.visiting journalists, which the Free Syrian Army and other
:07:38. > :07:42.opposition groups were taking people in and out of it. It appears
:07:42. > :07:46.it was targeted, that is the suggestion. Several military rounds
:07:46. > :07:50.came in accurately on the house, killing the two journalists,
:07:50. > :07:53.wounding a few more. They are media organisations are now trying to get
:07:53. > :07:58.them out this evening. Probably killing anything up to another two
:07:58. > :08:05.dozen people in the neighbourhood around that house. So it would
:08:05. > :08:08.appear to be a targeted strike, and the opposition groups say it is a
:08:08. > :08:13.deliberate attempt by the Government to snuff out independent
:08:13. > :08:16.reporting. With Russia and China vetoing
:08:16. > :08:20.resolutions on Syria, is there anything the outside world can and
:08:20. > :08:23.should. Do Joining me is the former US deputy
:08:23. > :08:28.Defence Secretary, Paul Wolfowitz, a key player in the Iraq war, the
:08:28. > :08:33.Conservative MP, Rory Stewart, and Syrian opposition leader, in London
:08:33. > :08:36.for a few days before returning to Syria. Mr Wolfowitz, is there a
:08:36. > :08:42.case for outside intervention in Syria, if so, what would it be?
:08:42. > :08:46.Well, first of all, I think it is worth noting two remarkable facts,
:08:46. > :08:50.one there is incredibly broad international support to see an end
:08:50. > :08:55.to the Assad regime. Russia and China are the two countries
:08:55. > :08:59.standing in the way, it is a very broad consensus. Secondly, the
:08:59. > :09:03.Syrian people are incredibly brave, this fighting and bloodshed has
:09:03. > :09:08.been going on for almost a year now, they show no sign of giving up.
:09:08. > :09:13.There is a lot that can be done, the key goal has to be to try to
:09:13. > :09:16.achieve a negotiated exit for the Assad regime. Sanctions aren't
:09:16. > :09:21.going to have much effect when they are fighting for their life. What
:09:21. > :09:24.will have an effect is strenening the opposition morally, politically
:09:24. > :09:28.-- strengthening the opposition, morally, politically and materially.
:09:28. > :09:33.Does that include arming the opposition, do you think? It is
:09:33. > :09:39.interesting, everyone always jumps to that. Let's start with political.
:09:39. > :09:44.It is incredibly important, if the opposition is given the opportunity
:09:44. > :09:48.to speak with a loud voice to the Syrian people and to the world, and
:09:48. > :09:51.to lay out an agenda that is reassuring, particularly to the
:09:51. > :09:56.Alawite and Christian minorities, that is something that could hasten
:09:56. > :10:00.defections are from the regime and hasten an end here. It is not just
:10:00. > :10:05.about arming. When you come to material support, it is not just
:10:05. > :10:09.about weaponry. My impression, and all of us are limited in our
:10:09. > :10:13.information, thank heavens there are journalists as brave as Marie
:10:13. > :10:18.Colvin to go in there and try to get the story out, she has paid a
:10:18. > :10:21.terrible price. One of the things they need is
:10:21. > :10:26.communications gear. Let me bring in Rory Stewart, Marie Colvin was a
:10:26. > :10:30.friend of your's, you knew her. She said in the BBC interview that she
:10:30. > :10:35.did yesterday, that no-one here can understand how the international
:10:35. > :10:42.community can let this happen. She made the comparison to verb nisia.
:10:42. > :10:46.Do we have to stand and watch this? She was deeply shocked by what was
:10:46. > :10:52.going on. I would be very cautious, though, of what Paul is saying, in
:10:52. > :10:56.terms of material support. I don't really see what, credibly, we could
:10:56. > :10:59.do in terms of arming the rebels. At the moment they have weapons,
:10:59. > :11:03.they appear to be getting support from places like Qatar. I think it
:11:03. > :11:07.would be dangerous, it might undermine them to associate Britain
:11:07. > :11:11.or the United States with them. I would like to take up Paul's
:11:11. > :11:14.suggestion of focusing much more on the political. The key thing is to
:11:14. > :11:18.give them a political voice and finding a political solution to the
:11:18. > :11:21.programme, however nasty or messy that seems. You know your
:11:21. > :11:26.constituents and others will be watching the TV pictures, and
:11:26. > :11:30.reacting to Marie Colvin's death, and the death of 80 people today,
:11:30. > :11:33.perhaps more, and saying this is absolutely terrible, in Srebrenica
:11:33. > :11:37.we said it wouldn't happen again, and now it is happening again?
:11:37. > :11:40.There are two things to remember. One of them is our power is limited,
:11:40. > :11:45.our knowledge is limited, most importantly of all, we need to
:11:45. > :11:48.listen to the Syrian people and the Syrian opposition. We need to ask
:11:48. > :11:51.the gentlemen such as this, whether he really wants us to be arming the
:11:51. > :11:59.rebels, and what that would mean for Syria. What do you want, what
:11:59. > :12:04.do you need? First of all, I would like to ask peace for the soul of
:12:04. > :12:12.the journalist Colvin and for the souls of thousands of Syrians that
:12:12. > :12:16.are being killed every day in Syria. Secondly, we want an international
:12:16. > :12:23.consensus. We want that the international community would help
:12:23. > :12:30.us in making this agreement, making this exit. For the problem in Syria,
:12:30. > :12:35.for this disaster that we are facing. It is not about something
:12:35. > :12:43.like the friends of Syria, that will happen after tomorrow, those
:12:43. > :12:50.larger groups of countries together can't make a real exit or real
:12:50. > :12:52.solutions. Are there material goods, weapons, communications equipment,
:12:52. > :12:57.political support, are there concrete things that outsiders can
:12:57. > :13:01.do, that would really help you, given that the view outside is that,
:13:01. > :13:07.at least, that the opposition is very fragmented, you have no-one
:13:07. > :13:11.leader or one structure, you have many structures? The opposition is
:13:12. > :13:14.fragmented, and also the Syrian society is fragmented, and also the
:13:14. > :13:24.international community is fragmented. It is a problem on all
:13:24. > :13:28.levels. We are working and we want that for the formation of small
:13:28. > :13:32.groups of states that can help and make intervention on Syria,
:13:32. > :13:37.especially with the collaboration of Russia. You can't put Russia
:13:37. > :13:42.outside the formula or the equation. Let me put that to Mr Wolfowitz,
:13:42. > :13:50.you can't put Russia outside the equation, yet they don't seem to
:13:50. > :13:54.want the international consensus that is built? I think they don't.
:13:54. > :13:59.What might bring them round is if they eventually saw this regime
:13:59. > :14:03.would eventually lose. That means strengthening the opposition. They
:14:03. > :14:06.are fragmented, and one reason is because it is very difficult to
:14:06. > :14:10.communicate between different cities and groups. They are
:14:10. > :14:14.fragmented in part because I think our contact with them is still
:14:14. > :14:18.limited, it is growing, but it seems to me we should be meeting
:14:18. > :14:21.with them much more often and much more conspicuously, and trying to
:14:22. > :14:26.bring together as many different elements and sending a very loud
:14:26. > :14:32.message about what the future of Syria might look like. In terms of
:14:32. > :14:35.outsiders being involved, how involved do you think Iran already
:14:35. > :14:40.is and Turkey already is, in the case of Iran in supporting the
:14:40. > :14:46.regime? They are supporting the regime, they are well involved. We
:14:46. > :14:53.have some media reports that maybe there is a real intervention for
:14:53. > :14:59.them on the ground. They are on the ground. What I feel we don't want
:14:59. > :15:02.to do, is end up as we did in Afghanistan in the 1980s, with a
:15:02. > :15:06.foreign-funded insurgency, taking place from a neighbouring country.
:15:06. > :15:10.Everything we can do to try to avoid that we should. We may end up
:15:10. > :15:14.there eventually, but at the moment really a political solution,
:15:14. > :15:17.pushing Assad, and the Russians, and working with what the Syrian
:15:17. > :15:20.people want, which is not a fragmented civil war and foreign-
:15:20. > :15:25.funded insurgency at the moment. The other parallel would be Iraq,
:15:25. > :15:29.you may have a sectarian civil war in Syria afterwards? There is so
:15:29. > :15:32.much horror that we have seen in Iraq, we did, of course in Libya,
:15:32. > :15:36.which is is a place where the population is a third of this size,
:15:36. > :15:39.and made some progress, but it took months to make the progress. We
:15:39. > :15:44.will not have that consensus in Syria. We need to be more cautious,
:15:44. > :15:47.and follow this gentleman's suggestion, there needs to be a
:15:47. > :15:52.Syrian-led political solution. Wolfowitz, you are worried about
:15:52. > :15:56.Iran in a slightly different context, I wondered what you
:15:56. > :16:01.thought Iran's involvement was here, and whether that was of concern to
:16:01. > :16:06.you too? I think the Iranians just had a couple of ships visit a
:16:06. > :16:10.Syrian port, and prob below deliver weapons. I'm not as comfortable --
:16:10. > :16:15.probably deliver weapons, I'm not as comfortable with the idea that
:16:15. > :16:20.Qatar is supplying the opposition. I don't see how one can expect any
:16:20. > :16:25.good outcome if the opposition remains largely unarmed or armed by
:16:25. > :16:29.people whose goals and objectives may be very different from our's. I
:16:29. > :16:34.understand his concern about the Afghan President, but I would also
:16:34. > :16:38.say the war in Bosnia went on for three bloody years, because we
:16:38. > :16:41.insisted on keeping the Bosnians defenceless, eventually we had to
:16:41. > :16:46.come in with foreign military forces, which it seems to me, we
:16:46. > :16:49.ought to avoid. I think the goal should be strengthening and
:16:49. > :16:53.unifying the Syrian opposition. Unfortunately I do think one has to
:16:53. > :16:58.give the Assad regime a chance, if they leave peacefully, to leave
:16:58. > :17:04.with their lives. On that thought, what do you make of the appetite in
:17:04. > :17:12.Washington to get involved in the way in which you are suggesting?
:17:12. > :17:20.think that the debate is open in Washington. It seems as though, I
:17:20. > :17:23.mean scam Senator McCain and others have been on the idea of supporting
:17:24. > :17:27.the opposition. Getting involved, we want to be very careful, nobody
:17:27. > :17:31.wants to get involved in the way of Iraq. I don't think anyone is
:17:31. > :17:36.suggesting getting involved in the way we are involved in Libya, there
:17:36. > :17:40.are many, many things short of that, that could be done to strengthen
:17:40. > :17:44.the opposition, and increase the chances and the speed of a peaceful
:17:44. > :17:49.outcome here. The longer this terrible fighting goes on, the
:17:49. > :17:54.worse the aftermath will be, of that I feel reasonably sure.
:17:54. > :17:59.The Assad regime may be offered an elegant way out as Paul Wolfowitz
:17:59. > :18:03.was suggesting, but they may do what Gaddafi did, and fight to the
:18:03. > :18:08.bitter end? There is a difference, one of the differences is we have
:18:09. > :18:13.managed to impose the sanctions and take away the oil. Gaddafi was
:18:13. > :18:17.dealing with full NATO air strikes and hung on for months. We don't
:18:17. > :18:21.know where that will go. We need to be careful not to make the
:18:21. > :18:25.situation worse by funding strange factions of insurgent groups we
:18:25. > :18:30.don't understand, and ending up in a situation in three or four years
:18:30. > :18:32.time with a fractured and devastated Syria. More on Marie
:18:32. > :18:36.Colvin, who died today, later, including an interview with a
:18:36. > :18:39.friend and colleague. Now, at a time when Britain's
:18:39. > :18:43.supporters at EU meetings on the eurozone crisis are sometimes
:18:43. > :18:45.difficult to spot, David Cameron has been particularly impressed by
:18:45. > :18:49.Sweden, and full of admiration for that country's Prime Minister, with
:18:49. > :18:54.who we will hear from in a moment. Like Britain, Sweden is not in the
:18:54. > :18:58.eurozone, and it has a centre right leader, who reregards himself as a
:18:58. > :19:03.moderniser. And Swedes, like Britain, are suspicious of the
:19:03. > :19:09.group bailout, and very sceptical of the prospect, if ever, of
:19:09. > :19:15.joining the euro. The Greek bailout was finally
:19:15. > :19:18.assembled this week, that averted or delayed a default in Athens, and
:19:18. > :19:26.fears of widespread European economic breakdown. Sweden, like
:19:26. > :19:36.Britain, remains outside the single currency, but it has profound
:19:36. > :19:41.implications for the Swedes and its export market. Home of Saab and
:19:41. > :19:45.IKEA, with fall in the demand for goods biting, growth is slowing.
:19:45. > :19:49.David Cameron is known to have high regard for the economic and social
:19:49. > :19:53.reforms implemented by Sweden's centre right Prime Minister,
:19:53. > :19:57.Fredrik Reinfeldt. I very much admire what Sweden has achieved
:19:57. > :20:01.under his leadership, the growth of the competitive economy, the
:20:01. > :20:05.emphasis on green growth, the school reform, the welfare reform,
:20:05. > :20:11.there is a lot Britain can learn from Sweden. Sweden has indeed been
:20:11. > :20:16.seen in Britain as a potential ally in Europe, but after waefring over
:20:16. > :20:20.negotiations on a new treaty in December, Mr Reinfeldt ultimately
:20:20. > :20:26.distanced himself from the veto, leaving Britain in its isolation,
:20:26. > :20:29.splend did or otherwise. Joining me is the Swedish Prime Minister,
:20:29. > :20:33.Fredrik Reinfeldt, despite this week's bailout, how long do you
:20:33. > :20:42.think it will be before Greece needs another bailout or out of the
:20:42. > :20:45.euro? It is now in their own hands. They have had time to put in the
:20:45. > :20:48.reforms they have promised but not followed through. They need a
:20:48. > :20:53.surplus situation in the Greek economy. It is only in their own
:20:53. > :20:57.hands to deliver it. When you look at Greece, do you think they are
:20:57. > :21:01.set a task that is simply impossible, the austerity task
:21:01. > :21:04.ahead of them is too hard for anybody to deliver? I could
:21:04. > :21:09.understand if the Greek people feel like that. Ordinary people in
:21:09. > :21:13.Greece, working, paying their taxes, feeling like they haven't done this,
:21:13. > :21:18.but they have a great inequality in the society which they should
:21:18. > :21:21.address. If you look to Sweden, and other countries that have been in
:21:21. > :21:25.economic trouble, we found that the quicker you put in your reforms and
:21:25. > :21:28.the more thorough you are in the beginning, the market reactions are
:21:28. > :21:33.more positive. The criticism we have sometimes had towards Greece
:21:33. > :21:37.is they have said a lot, but not always put in practice the reforms
:21:37. > :21:41.they have promised. That is their plob blem. In terms of the Uri --
:21:41. > :21:47.Problem. In terms of the euro, you are out of it, and committed some
:21:47. > :21:52.time in the future, vaguely, to join the euro. We have a two-speed
:21:52. > :21:59.Europe already, are you better out of it? It is a multi-speed Europe,
:21:59. > :22:04.there are differences to the euro and the Shengen area as well. The
:22:04. > :22:08.Swedish people said no in a referendum. Now the Swedish krona,
:22:08. > :22:13.which used to be insecured currency 20 years ago, now is seen as very
:22:13. > :22:17.stable, and also very strong. But this more reflects the reforms and
:22:17. > :22:22.the key reforms done to get better order in public finances. Again it
:22:22. > :22:27.is very much in your own hands. Swedish people have spoken, is
:22:27. > :22:32.there any point in keeping up the facade that you will at some point
:22:32. > :22:36.join the euro, your heart isn't in it, which is what we are saying?
:22:36. > :22:40.respect the result and we will not alter it unless we see a shift in
:22:40. > :22:44.the opinion polls. The latest opinion polls show a support for
:22:44. > :22:48.joining the euro down at 10%. It is an enormous increase in support for
:22:48. > :22:52.keeping the Crown that, because the Crown that in itself, is now very
:22:52. > :22:56.strong. They like it t of course. As you know, David Cameron is an
:22:56. > :23:01.admirer of your's, there are similarities between your policies,
:23:01. > :23:07.why did he end up alone in December at the European Summit. Why did he
:23:07. > :23:12.end up speaking for Britain alone and not views that you may share
:23:12. > :23:19.with Britain, in terms of the veto? I'm not sure that we were that far
:23:19. > :23:23.apart, actually. The eurozone want to have a fiscal compact, that only
:23:23. > :23:29.should regulations followed by the 17 countries. Outside of that we
:23:29. > :23:34.have ten countries, including the UK and Sweden. I felt that, well,
:23:34. > :23:39.we can join this fiscal compact if we could legally stay outside, but
:23:39. > :23:46.be present during meetings. That combination was interesting for us.
:23:46. > :23:55.I felt that, well, to David Cameron, he was not as sure of the merits of
:23:55. > :23:59.this, he wanted to skr -- to have other kinds of things, a clearer
:24:00. > :24:03.message when it came to the financial sector in London, and in
:24:03. > :24:09.the UK. That was not possible. So I think it was quite understandable
:24:09. > :24:13.why he reacted as he did. You use an interesting phrase about being
:24:13. > :24:16.in the meetings, is that a drawback for you that Britain isn't going to
:24:17. > :24:22.be in some of those meetings, you will be present and people that you
:24:22. > :24:26.agree with, Britain, outside? In my own interests I would welcome
:24:26. > :24:31.the UK, and David to be there. Because I think we have a lot in
:24:31. > :24:35.common. I think we want to see a well-functioning intefrpbl market.
:24:35. > :24:40.I think we are very -- internal market. I think we are very open to
:24:40. > :24:43.trade. We stand very close to each other. Sweden and the UK are two
:24:43. > :24:48.countries with very large financial sectors, even there we could share
:24:48. > :24:56.interests. You need to be there, in my belief, to be able to stand up
:24:56. > :25:01.for your interests. Trade and a lot of these interests, you need to be
:25:01. > :25:05.there. Was it a tactical mistake for David Cameron not to play the
:25:05. > :25:09.veto in that way and to be excluded and exclude himself? Then again
:25:09. > :25:18.that was understandable that he wanted to secure some points, this
:25:18. > :25:22.was not possible, then we chose another path. I understood his
:25:22. > :25:29.reasoning. Again, the financial compact in itself is actually only
:25:29. > :25:33.done for the 17. I also think the feeling in the UK is that you are
:25:33. > :25:36.more long-term will stay outside the euro, in my country we will
:25:37. > :25:40.still have a discussion that we might alter this in the future.
:25:40. > :25:44.There is probably a difference. Thank you very much.
:25:44. > :25:47.Over the past few weeks we have been witnessing something new at
:25:47. > :25:51.Westminster. A semi-open discussion, in Government, about what should be
:25:51. > :25:55.in the budget. In their party political broadcast tonight the
:25:55. > :25:59.Liberal Democrats repeated the call they made on Newsnight on Monday,
:25:59. > :26:04.for income tax thresholds to be raised. They aren't the only wupbls
:26:04. > :26:09.doing the pleaded and plotting d ones doing the pleading and
:26:09. > :26:13.plotting. What is going on today? Today was the turn of the Tories.
:26:13. > :26:17.We had Liam Fox, former Defence Secretary, coming out, he called
:26:17. > :26:21.for a reduction in national insurance on employers. Then this
:26:21. > :26:25.evening and in tomorrow's Times, we have a senior Tory activist calling
:26:25. > :26:29.for what can only be described as a mansion tax. But he's specific
:26:29. > :26:32.about how he would do it. It would have been unthinkable a year ago to
:26:33. > :26:36.have Tories calling for that sort of thing. What is interesting about
:26:36. > :26:40.the negotiations before this the budget, if you think about how long
:26:40. > :26:45.measures in budgets take effect, lots of people are thinking about
:26:45. > :26:48.the next month's budget as the last chance to do something ahead of the
:26:48. > :26:51.2015 election. That is why everyone is piling in to make a difference.
:26:51. > :26:55.Given that is such an important step, politically, and there is
:26:55. > :27:00.lots of ideas out there, do we have any senses of which ones will win
:27:00. > :27:04.out in the budget? The Liam Fox one, eventhough viewers will be reading
:27:04. > :27:07.and hearing a lot about this national insurance idea, when he
:27:07. > :27:12.was on our programme on Monday night, David Laws ruled that out.
:27:12. > :27:16.He said the priority, and the tax- cutting priority, in his language,
:27:16. > :27:20.was what the Liberal Democrats want, which is the increase in the amount
:27:20. > :27:26.of you can keep before paying tax. That is what they want and they
:27:26. > :27:31.ruled out the NI. Some sources in Downing Street said it didn't work
:27:31. > :27:35.in the opening stages of coalition. Eventhough they want it I'm not
:27:35. > :27:39.sure they will go for it. There is work with wealth tax, behind the
:27:39. > :27:43.scenes. One of the problems is the Government not only have to find
:27:43. > :27:52.the pot of money for the Lib Dem idea, it is a joint idea but the
:27:52. > :27:56.Lib Dems are pushing it. They have to find a way of fund the child
:27:56. > :28:01.benefit, they have to lessen the impact, that is why we have to look
:28:01. > :28:06.at ways to raise revenue. There is some movement on pension relief,
:28:06. > :28:09.now we are listening to interesting ideas. It is budget by former
:28:09. > :28:13.cabinet minister. What are the Treasury working on, do you think?
:28:14. > :28:16.There is a range of options, one of them is this problem that the
:28:16. > :28:20.private sector are sitting on healthy balance sheets, how do you
:28:20. > :28:24.try to encourage them to get their assets out into the real economy,
:28:24. > :28:28.rather than sitting and waiting for things to get better and coming in.
:28:28. > :28:33.There is positive things going on in childcare and social care, there
:28:33. > :28:37.is big battles but they are trying for good news stories. They have to
:28:37. > :28:41.amealate some of the bad things, then there is the pension thing we
:28:41. > :28:45.talked about before. It is complicated and high stakes, and
:28:45. > :28:49.there is no money. We understood that.
:28:49. > :28:54.Every day in Britain a dozen postal workers are attacked by dogs as
:28:54. > :28:58.they deliver our mail. But because the attacks generally take place on
:28:58. > :29:04.their owner's private property, prosecutions are almost impossible.
:29:04. > :29:11.In the last year 6,000 adults and children were admitted to dopt
:29:11. > :29:18.because -- hospital because of dog attacks. Keeping dogs in kennels is
:29:18. > :29:21.costing the Metropolitan Police �4 million a year. Proposals will be
:29:21. > :29:28.published next month. What should be done about dangerous dogs o
:29:28. > :29:34.perhaps their owners. -- or perhaps their owners. We have
:29:34. > :29:38.become a uby-election tus feature of modern life in Britain, dogs you
:29:38. > :29:43.would hesitate to pet. Often known as dangerous dogs. They have been
:29:43. > :29:53.linked to 6,000 attacks a year. Who needs them and what are we going to
:29:53. > :29:58.do about them? It is amazing how one little person can affect so
:29:58. > :30:03.many people, like, proper ripple effect, on people's lives. None of
:30:03. > :30:10.us are the same people, your whole life just changes. You change as a
:30:10. > :30:14.person, everything you knew is just gone, within seconds. Three years
:30:14. > :30:17.ago Angela McGlynn's four-year-old son, John Paul, was attacked and
:30:17. > :30:23.killed by a pitbull here in Liverpool. He was at his granny's
:30:23. > :30:30.house at the time, the dog was a trusted family pet. She tried her
:30:30. > :30:35.best to save John Paul, she couldn't, but she saved herself and
:30:35. > :30:39.my other son, I could have lost all three of them that night. Angela
:30:39. > :30:43.McGlynn's MP wants to see the law changed on dangerous dogs, at
:30:43. > :30:47.present it is hard to prosecute owners over attacks which happen on
:30:47. > :30:52.their own premises, she says, and the Government seems to have fallen
:30:52. > :30:55.silent on the whole subject. With can't afford to see another
:30:55. > :30:59.child die. We have seen six children lose their lives since
:30:59. > :31:02.2006. What we are calling for is the Government to take some action
:31:02. > :31:06.and respond to their very own consultation, which concluded 20
:31:06. > :31:10.months ago, we have seen nothing from them, heard nothing, it is not
:31:10. > :31:15.acceptable. It seemed everyone we met had a story to tell their MP
:31:15. > :31:18.about an all too close encounter with a dangerous dog. A chap in the
:31:18. > :31:23.next street got hold of the dog and threw it into the middle of the
:31:23. > :31:30.road, pushed me into the news agents, and the dog shot off the
:31:30. > :31:35.road, pushed the news agent's door and got me in the shop itself.
:31:36. > :31:45.All right lads could we have a word with you for Newsnight about your
:31:46. > :31:49.
:31:49. > :31:59.dog. Sorry. You got him under control there? Yeah. What is your
:31:59. > :32:03.
:32:03. > :32:07.dog? What breed is it? A staff crossed with a whippet? It is four
:32:07. > :32:13.years old. Are you aware your dog just tried to bite our cameraman?
:32:13. > :32:17.She is just barking. She tried to bite her leg? It looked like, but
:32:17. > :32:27.she never bite nobody. What have you got a dog like that
:32:27. > :32:28.
:32:28. > :32:35.for? I just got her. You know. She looks how she looks, aggressive,
:32:35. > :32:38.but it is absolutely sweet dog. I introduce your local MP. Do you
:32:38. > :32:45.have any thoughts about this creature and our friend here.
:32:45. > :32:53.your local member of parliament, I'm campaigning against dogs that
:32:53. > :32:59.might impact or might hurt or affect other people. I come to this
:32:59. > :33:06.park every day. (dog barking (she plays with the other dogs, and you
:33:06. > :33:13.know, never have a situation like this. Would you let her near any
:33:13. > :33:20.children? No. Are you worried your dog could bite someone? Yeah, any
:33:20. > :33:24.dog can bite someone. What did you make of that? That is the very
:33:24. > :33:27.thing I'm concerned about. That man said he was the fifth owner, there
:33:27. > :33:32.was four previous owners of the dog, he didn't know if he necessarily
:33:32. > :33:36.had the skills to look after that animal. We saw the dog off the
:33:36. > :33:40.leash, I was quite scared by the dog, we saw it go for the cameraman,
:33:40. > :33:45.my concern is about a child in the park, another adult or another dog.
:33:45. > :33:48.He just walks off to work or whatever he's doing. What on earth
:33:48. > :33:53.is anyone, including you going to do about that in reality? That is
:33:53. > :33:56.why we need to see a very, very quick change in the law. The law as
:33:56. > :33:59.it stands isn't robust enough to deal with that. If there was a dog
:33:59. > :34:04.warden in the area, or someone from the council, or someone from the
:34:04. > :34:07.police, they could serve a dog control notice so that owner was
:34:07. > :34:13.then responsible for ensuring his dog was kept on a lead at all times,
:34:13. > :34:17.rather than off the lead, as we saw At the moment the law targets only
:34:17. > :34:21.four breeds of dog. Regardless of what the animals may have done, or
:34:21. > :34:25.not done. Owners may not be prosecuted over
:34:25. > :34:32.dog attacks which occur on their own property.
:34:32. > :34:37.The Freedom of Information by Miss Berger, has revealed the police are
:34:37. > :34:42.spending almost �4 million on kenneling dogs. In her own area,
:34:42. > :34:47.Merseyside, they spent almost 300,000, and in London the figure
:34:47. > :34:52.was the best part of �3 million. The police impounded Bodie here,
:34:52. > :34:55.because he's an illegal breed, eventhough he has never attacked
:34:55. > :35:05.anyone. Denise Evans managed to get him returned. She says the real
:35:05. > :35:05.
:35:05. > :35:10.problem is the way dogs are trained. There are vicious ones of these, I
:35:10. > :35:13.wouldn't want to come across, they are strong dogs. If you own a dog
:35:13. > :35:18.like this, you have to be a responsible owner, it is not the
:35:18. > :35:21.dog but the owner who has to have control of the dog. We need powers
:35:21. > :35:25.to concentrate on people who use dogs as weapons in the communities,
:35:25. > :35:30.people seeking to use it as a status, in certain communities that
:35:30. > :35:36.is of grave concern. We need robust legislation to tackle these
:35:36. > :35:40.offenders and ensure they understand their responsibility.
:35:40. > :35:48.The Government said tonight it would announce new proposals on the
:35:48. > :35:53.control of dogs in the coming weeks. The Labour MP, is in favour of
:35:53. > :35:58.changes to the current law, and Mark Littlewood, of the Institute
:35:58. > :36:03.of Economic Affairs, is sceptical new laws are necessary. Do you
:36:03. > :36:08.think the 1991 Dangerous Dogs Act is a waste of pays? The eight
:36:08. > :36:11.speess -- space? The eight pieces of legislation need to come
:36:11. > :36:18.together. That is why broad agencies, including enforcement
:36:18. > :36:23.agencies, and trade unions, you mentioned postal Work In Progress
:36:23. > :36:27.By A Life In Progressers, and animal welfare groups, we need an
:36:27. > :36:33.urgent change in the legislation. That is why we needed a
:36:33. > :36:35.consultation about the legislation. You said the Government said in the
:36:35. > :36:40.coming weeks. I have heard the Government say it will respond to
:36:40. > :36:45.its own consultation in the coming weeks for the past 20 months. We
:36:45. > :36:50.need urgent response from the Government. Why are you against
:36:50. > :36:55.more legislation on this? We have to put this into context. There is
:36:55. > :37:00.horrific stories in the package we have seen, but it isn't an enormous
:37:00. > :37:06.problem. It is if you are bitten? The same number of people die from
:37:06. > :37:10.wasp and bee bites as from dog bites. It is harrowing if it
:37:10. > :37:14.happens, but let's not build it out of proportion. We need clear
:37:14. > :37:17.responsibility on the owner, both criminal conduct, if your dog
:37:17. > :37:22.attacks another member of the public, and compensation, if there
:37:22. > :37:26.is an injury. Once you have got that sorted, the last thing we need
:37:26. > :37:31.is microchipping, local bureaucrats with dog control orders or anything
:37:31. > :37:35.else. That is not going to make us much safer? This question of
:37:35. > :37:38.private property, what do you want to see done on that, do you think
:37:38. > :37:43.it should be the same whether you are bitten by somebody in a garden
:37:43. > :37:46.by a dog or somebody on the street, is that what you would like to see?
:37:46. > :37:50.That is one of the five key things we are calling for. That the law
:37:50. > :37:53.should be extended to cover private property, so victims can get the
:37:53. > :37:57.justice they deserve if they are attacked on private property as
:37:57. > :38:02.much as a public place. There is very little powers falling to the
:38:02. > :38:07.police to pursue anyone if someone is bitten. You pension the postal
:38:07. > :38:11.workers, every single day 15 postal workers are attacked delivering
:38:11. > :38:17.mail, social workers visiting houses, there is no resource for
:38:17. > :38:23.those people. I do think the point about private property, you can
:38:23. > :38:31.take risks and people can decide to enter it. If you enter my house you
:38:31. > :38:35.will be encountering smoke, and we have leads everywhere, if there is
:38:35. > :38:39.a dog you may choose not to bring your children round. There is a
:38:39. > :38:43.risk for postal workers, you have to say this postman will not visit
:38:43. > :38:48.41 Dawes of a dangerous dog. I don't think you should -- 41
:38:48. > :38:51.because of a dangerous dog, I don't think you should apply that to all
:38:51. > :38:57.private property. If you punch somebody in the street that is a
:38:57. > :39:01.crime f you punch somebody in your front garden that is a crime, but
:39:01. > :39:04.not your dog? That is not a comparison. If you punch somebody
:39:04. > :39:08.in your living room it is accused of a crime, this is a question of a
:39:08. > :39:12.health and safety risk that might run out of control. If you
:39:12. > :39:15.deliberately feed the neighbour's kids to the dogs this is a crime,
:39:15. > :39:19.it is more a negligence and health and safety issue, it is important
:39:19. > :39:23.that doesn't extend to the living room of private property.
:39:23. > :39:27.Absolutely disagree. We don't have that power already, and certain
:39:27. > :39:30.people are not afforded protection, people are disfigured and disabled
:39:30. > :39:35.every day. It is around 6,000 people hospitalised every year,
:39:35. > :39:38.that doesn't include people going toe their GPs or accident treatment
:39:38. > :39:43.centres. 11 deaths I think is too many. That in itself requires a
:39:43. > :39:47.change in the law. Also for those thousands of people injured. What
:39:47. > :39:53.about the other things saying, making people having to chip dogs,
:39:53. > :39:58.many dog owners do. Is that really the problem, or is it bad owners?
:39:58. > :40:01.It is about encouraging responsible ownership, and beyond the breed to
:40:01. > :40:05.the deed. There is very little preventive powers extended to the
:40:05. > :40:09.police or councils to deal with the problem before an attack takes
:40:09. > :40:13.place. We mentioned before about the cost that the police forces up
:40:13. > :40:16.and down this country are incurring, they are doing a fantastic job
:40:16. > :40:21.under very difficult circumstances. They need all the support and
:40:21. > :40:25.powers afforded to them so they can take action so we don't see another
:40:25. > :40:29.person die. We don't need to give the police that support, we need to
:40:29. > :40:35.make it plain the owner bears the responsibility. If it rips yours
:40:35. > :40:39.jacket the owner has to pay, if it harms you, the owner has to pay
:40:39. > :40:42.compensation and possibly facing a criminal offence. As long as we
:40:42. > :40:46.shift responsibility clearly and plainly on to the owner, and don't
:40:46. > :40:50.make it the responsibility of the police or the local council. Is the
:40:50. > :40:57.answer licensing, if you are a bad owner you get your license taken
:40:57. > :41:03.away? In the same way we have compulsory insurance for people who
:41:03. > :41:09.drive motorcars -- motorcars, there might be compulsory insurance for
:41:09. > :41:14.certain breeds of dogs. Keep the responsibility with the owner, not
:41:14. > :41:17.with Of-dog, or whatever bureaucratic agency they want to
:41:17. > :41:21.set up? It is about empowering owners to be responsible and help
:41:21. > :41:26.them look after their dogs and make sure they don't cause problems or
:41:26. > :41:29.attack anyone. Would you be in favour of some licensing system, in
:41:29. > :41:34.other words, if you didn't look after your dog couldn't have one,
:41:34. > :41:39.the Government would tell you that? The five key things we are looking
:41:39. > :41:43.at don't extend to that, I'm open to all options, we just want action.
:41:43. > :41:47.We have seen action in Northern Ireland and Scotland, and Wales are
:41:47. > :41:51.going to introduce new legislation by the end of the year. I want this
:41:51. > :41:56.Government to introduce legislation to consolidate the acts as they
:41:57. > :42:01.stand, and afford our police and councils additional protections so
:42:01. > :42:07.we don't see anyone else die. Not surprisingly tomorrow morning's
:42:07. > :42:17.newspapers have a great deal to say on the death of Marie Colvin. Her
:42:17. > :42:19.
:42:19. > :42:22.photograph is on the front pages. There is a quote from a speech she
:42:22. > :42:27.gave in November 2010, giving a service to commemorate war
:42:27. > :42:31.reporters who died. She's on the front page of the Guardian, she
:42:31. > :42:35.wanted to finish one more story is its take on the story. The
:42:35. > :42:41.Independent has the heroic face of journalism, we have seen some of
:42:41. > :42:45.the other faces of journalism, this is the heroic face. The Telegraph
:42:45. > :42:50.has baby girls aborted and no questions asked. Joining us to
:42:50. > :42:55.discuss Marie Colvin's life and work is a fellow reporter, Janine
:42:55. > :43:01.di Giovanni. How will you remember her? As an incredibly tenacious,
:43:01. > :43:05.brave, courageous reporter, the one that was always first in and the
:43:05. > :43:09.last to go. She would stay much longer than anyone. She was
:43:09. > :43:14.incredibly determined to tell the story, to get the story out, often
:43:14. > :43:19.at great risk to herself, whether Chechnya, East Timor, or Kosovo.
:43:19. > :43:23.She really came from that great tradition of reporter of James
:43:23. > :43:29.Cameron, Martha Gellhorn, whom she greatly admired. I just hope, and I
:43:29. > :43:33.truly believe that, especially for women, she kind of set the bar for
:43:33. > :43:37.journalism, for real journalism. And telling the truth and bringing
:43:37. > :43:40.a Joyce to people who didn't have a voice. -- a voice to people who
:43:40. > :43:44.didn't have a voice. She was a great crusader of bearing witness,
:43:44. > :43:48.which is what she called it, for people to tell their stories. She
:43:48. > :43:53.often said if they want to tell you, they will tell you, and they want
:43:53. > :43:58.to tell you, they want you to know the truth. She and you more than
:43:58. > :44:05.anybody, you know the risks you run in those situations. The big
:44:05. > :44:10.question that people will be asking is why did she do it? With Homs
:44:11. > :44:14.there is terrible resonance of Sarajevo, a city isolated and the
:44:14. > :44:18.civilian population is going through hell. There are some
:44:18. > :44:24.journalists there but not many. She believed that this was a crucial
:44:24. > :44:28.story to tell, that the world needs to know what's happening, and she
:44:28. > :44:31.was someone that had the ability to do that. She had the courage, and
:44:31. > :44:37.she certainly had the experience. She was doing this for more than 25
:44:37. > :44:42.years. It was a story that needed to be told. You mentioned Martha
:44:42. > :44:45.Gellhorn, you said that she was a great roll model for journalists,
:44:45. > :44:50.particularly for women too. Is it different for women in a warzone,
:44:50. > :44:55.is it easier or more difficult, do people talk to you more? This is
:44:55. > :44:59.always a question that is asked. I think that there is pros and cons,
:44:59. > :45:05.obviously a story like this, where she would have had to be smuggled
:45:05. > :45:09.in to get in, and would have been incred difficult for -- incredibly
:45:09. > :45:14.difficult for a woman, win she went to Chechnya and was smuggled in,
:45:14. > :45:19.she had to hike over mountains. Women are not as physically strong
:45:19. > :45:24.as men, biologically, I think there is that. On the ground women can be
:45:24. > :45:30.absolutely just as tough and tenacious, and courageous as men. I
:45:30. > :45:35.think she really was the role model for an entire generation of women
:45:35. > :45:40.and men, and young reporters, who really want to carry the truth, and
:45:40. > :45:44.to bring the truth to a wider audience. To go somewhere where one
:45:44. > :45:48.of our colleagues said to shine a light in the darkest corners of the
:45:48. > :45:51.world. She was very, listening to that BBC interview that she gave
:45:52. > :45:56.yesterday, not just very, very motivated, but very committed to
:45:56. > :45:59.bringing some kind of peace to the people she saw suffering, and to
:45:59. > :46:04.make us understand that eventhough we live many hundreds of thousands
:46:04. > :46:07.of miles away? With passion, she had tremendous passion, she once
:46:07. > :46:11.said she can't write about something unless she was passionate
:46:11. > :46:15.about it. She was someone, whether it was the Middle East, that was
:46:15. > :46:19.really her area, and she would hold on to something, and she believed
:46:19. > :46:23.in it. I remember once saying to her, do you ever let this story go,
:46:23. > :46:29.she said not when you are in the middle of it, she was living in
:46:29. > :46:33.Jerusalem at the time. She just lived for her work, she was
:46:33. > :46:39.completely devoted to it. She would spend months staying somewhere.
:46:39. > :46:43.Libya, she called it a health farm, because she was there for so long,
:46:43. > :46:48.and she, at great cost often to one's private life doing this, it
:46:48. > :46:52.is a very difficult job. She is someone we will never forget.
:46:52. > :46:55.Thank you very much for paying tribute to Marie Colvin. That's all
:46:55. > :47:02.for tonight, Kirsty will be here tomorrow, one last piece of news,
:47:02. > :47:12.tonight at the Royal Television Society News Awards, Newsnight won
:47:12. > :47:32.
:47:32. > :47:37.news programme of the year, our Good evening. Cloudy, misty and
:47:37. > :47:42.mild night tonight for many. Particularly misty across these
:47:42. > :47:46.western areas, foggy start, slowing the commute, with the wind south-
:47:46. > :47:51.westerly, many of these western and southern parts will remain grey
:47:51. > :47:55.throughout. To the high ground, north-east England, certainly
:47:55. > :48:00.through eastern parts of England, temperatures lifting in sunny
:48:00. > :48:05.spells to 16 or 17. Not opening for too much in the way of sunshine
:48:05. > :48:09.around the coast, in Torbay to the east of Dartmoor, sunnier breaks.
:48:09. > :48:14.Through the moors, it is going to rain misty, foggy all day. The
:48:14. > :48:18.white colours here across the hills and mountains of Wales. With that
:48:18. > :48:22.thicker cloud comes patchy rain or drizzle. Maybe a little bit of
:48:22. > :48:26.brightness across and down. Thicker cloud to North West later brings
:48:26. > :48:30.the wettest spell of the day. Patchy rain or drizzle turning
:48:30. > :48:34.heavier across the North West of Scotland. Things change across the
:48:34. > :48:37.north, particularly for Scotland and Northern Ireland, into Friday.
:48:37. > :48:40.Something brighter, but the temperatures drop, we will slowly
:48:40. > :48:45.see temperatures drop across England and Wales too, a lot more
:48:45. > :48:49.cloud on Friday, with patchy rain and drizzle, that comes from a cold