:00:10. > :00:15.Tonight, business has been taking a kicking for big profits, big pay
:00:15. > :00:18.pacts and big bonuses for executives. Tonight the Prime
:00:18. > :00:22.Minister praised it to the skies. Business is not just about making
:00:22. > :00:25.money, vital as it is, it is also the most vital force for social
:00:25. > :00:28.progress that the world has ever known.
:00:28. > :00:31.Four chief executives are here to debate what business does right,
:00:31. > :00:37.what it does wrong, and what it wants from the Government.
:00:37. > :00:41.What happens when it all comes crashing down? David Cameron's
:00:41. > :00:45.families' champion quits her role after a shrew of fraud allegations
:00:45. > :00:49.against her company, A4e, I will be asking the Employment Minister did
:00:49. > :00:53.the Prime Minister fail to carry out due diligence on Emma Harrison.
:00:53. > :00:58.Until his cap tue, he was Colonel Gaddafi's righthand man, now he's
:00:58. > :01:03.in jail in Misrata. We interviewed him, and his jailer chipped in too.
:01:03. > :01:13.TRANSLATION: I wish you would be more co-operative. TRANSLATION:
:01:13. > :01:13.
:01:13. > :01:17.swear to God, any question you have asked me I have answered.
:01:17. > :01:20.Good evening, frankly, I'm sick of all this anti-business snobbery,
:01:20. > :01:23.said the Prime Minister today, in an attempt to change the stormy
:01:23. > :01:29.weather blowing around business and enterprise in the UK. Accused of
:01:29. > :01:32.putting profits before people, paying themselves megasalary
:01:32. > :01:38.packages what Sir Martin Sorrell has called indiscriminate business
:01:38. > :01:41.bashing. All the politicians have been at it too. Writing today, the
:01:41. > :01:44.industry giant head of Centrica talked about the profits.
:01:44. > :01:48.20 years ago it would have been inconceivable that business would
:01:48. > :01:56.have been held in such low regard. What has gone wrong. David Grossman
:01:56. > :02:01.reports. There are quite a few in business
:02:01. > :02:11.wishing the politicians would just keep quiet.
:02:11. > :02:17.Capitalism takes no prisoners. It kills competition when it can.
:02:17. > :02:19.The parties, in an apparent competition to talk tough.
:02:19. > :02:24.Predators are just interested in the fast buck, taking with what
:02:24. > :02:28.they can out of the business. People right at the top of
:02:28. > :02:32.Government. There is a wealthy elite, or large businesses, who can
:02:32. > :02:35.pay an army of tax accountants to get out of paying their fair share
:02:35. > :02:38.of tax. Today the mood couldn't have been more different. The
:02:38. > :02:42.Prince Charles in North London to celebrate 30 years of business in
:02:42. > :02:45.the community. That's three decades of corporations, helping to make
:02:45. > :02:52.Britain a bit better. The Prime Minister's message, business
:02:52. > :02:54.bashing has to stop. In recent months we have heard some
:02:54. > :02:59.dangerous rhetoric creep into our national debate. That wealth
:02:59. > :03:03.creation is some how anti-social, that people in business are some
:03:03. > :03:07.how out for themselves. I think we have to fight this mood with
:03:07. > :03:10.everything that we have got. And the bashing has to stop, said
:03:10. > :03:15.the Prime Minister, not just because business creates jobs and
:03:15. > :03:21.pays tax, but because it also makes society work.
:03:21. > :03:23.Business is not just about making money, as vital as it is. It is
:03:23. > :03:30.also the most powerful force for social progress that the world has
:03:30. > :03:34.ever known. While the hall applauded, Labour
:03:34. > :03:39.has accused the Prime Minister of breath taking inconsistency, of
:03:39. > :03:43.declaring a truth with vested interests. On the very day you see
:03:43. > :03:47.RBS paying out millions in bonuses, in a loss-making investment bank,
:03:47. > :03:49.and British Gas also making millions of pounds in profits at
:03:49. > :03:54.the same time that families are being squeezed in this country, the
:03:54. > :03:58.biggest squeeze in living standards in a generation, small businesses
:03:58. > :04:00.and entrepeneurs struggling to get access to finance. You have the
:04:00. > :04:04.Prime Minister saying everyone trying to reform the system is
:04:04. > :04:07.wrong, you are anti-wealth creation and anti-business, this is a
:04:07. > :04:12.ridiculous state of affairs. Needs to get his act together.
:04:12. > :04:16.The Prime Minister was in a bit of a hurry, had he to get back to a
:04:16. > :04:21.meeting on Somali pirates. He left behind, though, plenty of business
:04:21. > :04:25.people, who feel that they too are often portrayed as ruthless
:04:25. > :04:28.plunderers. You have listened to the stories of what many companies,
:04:28. > :04:32.small, medium and large enterprises are doing to put something back
:04:32. > :04:35.into the community. That is so refreshing, you have a lot of
:04:35. > :04:39.chairmen and CEOs here today, they are here because they believe they
:04:39. > :04:42.ought to be doing it. They are doing it. So it would be nice if
:04:42. > :04:46.some of the coverage actually focuses on what is happening, and
:04:46. > :04:50.what business is putting back, rather than sort of just assuming
:04:50. > :04:54.that because a business make as profit, and it pays its executives
:04:54. > :04:59.well, that is some how obscene. Today's gathering came at the end
:04:59. > :05:03.of a week when Tesco and others have faced a campaign to stop them
:05:03. > :05:07.offering unpaid work experience. Some firms here complain that in
:05:07. > :05:11.the current atmosphere, they are criticised, even when they try to
:05:11. > :05:17.do some good in the community. is dammed if you do, dammeded if
:05:17. > :05:26.you don't, expression. We had a situation where we employ a lot of
:05:26. > :05:32.aprend dis -' present tis painters, and they are -- apprentice painters,
:05:32. > :05:37.and they are local kids, if you put them as a gang on painting a local
:05:37. > :05:41.council building, people will say is cheap labour. We are offering
:05:41. > :05:44.work experience, and money into the local economy, and inspiration to
:05:44. > :05:47.peer groups. The clients are adding value because we are putting those
:05:47. > :05:51.people into work. They are leverageing more out of business
:05:51. > :05:55.instead of us taking profit and leaving. Ultimately, unless these
:05:55. > :05:59.things are recognised as good practice, they will wither on the
:06:00. > :06:05.vine. With the budget coming up, another subject discussed here, of
:06:05. > :06:08.course, is tax. Is the tax environment right here?
:06:08. > :06:11.It is getting better, corporation tax is coming down. We pay our
:06:11. > :06:15.corporation taxes in the UK. The Government has made big strides
:06:15. > :06:19.there, I think. Ultimately we will have to sort out how we tax people
:06:19. > :06:24.in general, I think. Higher rates of tax? I think we are going to
:06:24. > :06:27.have to look at some of those in keeping all lent here inside the UK.
:06:27. > :06:32.There is a little -- talent here inside the UK. There is a little
:06:32. > :06:39.bit of drain on that. The 50p tax rate we are talking about? I think
:06:39. > :06:43.we are looking in general at tax in the UK, and how that works relative
:06:43. > :06:48.to other economies. If the Government gets it wrong,
:06:48. > :06:51.businesses could relocate taking tax and jobs with them.
:06:51. > :07:00.Bashing businesses might be good politics, but it also could be very
:07:00. > :07:04.bad economics. With me now are four people who
:07:04. > :07:09.manage some of the biggest businesss in Britain. Among them
:07:09. > :07:18.they employ over 70,000 people, Mark Price is the managing director
:07:18. > :07:23.of Waitrose, and chairs the charity For the community. And one of the
:07:23. > :07:28.UK's most powerful business women, and Ken McMeiken, and Paul
:07:28. > :07:32.Dreschler, sitting at the head of Wates Construction, a major
:07:32. > :07:37.contractor. Paul Dreschler, first of all, the
:07:37. > :07:43.idea that business is a pariah has grown up much more than ever before,
:07:43. > :07:48.over the last two years. Why do you think it has been so bad? I think
:07:48. > :07:51.you can look at this in a few ways. I feel over the past number of
:07:51. > :07:54.years business has done a tremendous amount for good in
:07:54. > :07:58.society. I think perhaps with all the challenges of the world economy
:07:58. > :08:02.and the local economy, and some of the financial service issues,
:08:02. > :08:06.society has lost trust in business. We have to earn that back. I think
:08:06. > :08:10.the best way to earn it back is to be more public about some of the
:08:10. > :08:13.great things we are doing. It is interesting, in fact, often when we
:08:13. > :08:16.actually ask business people to come on and justify their own
:08:17. > :08:20.positions in their own companies, it is hard to get them to come on
:08:20. > :08:24.to the programme and talk about what they actually do? I think you
:08:24. > :08:28.will find tonight we will be delighted to talk about what we are
:08:28. > :08:32.doing. This idea that moral capitalism, which is what Ed
:08:32. > :08:36.Milliband is talking about, which begs the question of what is
:08:36. > :08:39.immoral capitalism. He talked about predator rather than producer
:08:39. > :08:42.companies, what is that about? is hard to comprehend, begin people
:08:42. > :08:45.talking about businesses making a fast buck, they are not businesses
:08:45. > :08:48.around for the long-term. All of us here work for businesses that have
:08:48. > :08:51.been around for a long time. We have been in the UK for 80 years.
:08:51. > :08:56.If you are going to be a sustainable business, you have to
:08:56. > :09:01.make sure you are doing the right thing not just for today but for
:09:01. > :09:05.the long-term. Is there immoral capitalism? I'm sure you can find
:09:05. > :09:09.anything where you look, for the main, most businesses are in this
:09:09. > :09:15.for doing good. People who are not business literate, most of us, in a
:09:15. > :09:18.way, what they see is huge headline profits? Yeah, but the profits are
:09:18. > :09:22.hugely important, if companies are going to invest and continue to
:09:22. > :09:25.grow, by growing what you then do is create jobs. If there is one
:09:25. > :09:28.thing we have as a big challenge as a country, we need to create more
:09:28. > :09:33.jobs, because there are so many people out of work, that's how we
:09:34. > :09:36.are actually going to get a feel- good factor back into the UK.
:09:36. > :09:40.Unless we have companies growing profitably, and investing those
:09:40. > :09:42.profits back into growing and creating jobs, then we get into a
:09:42. > :09:46.vicious downward spiral. talking about any of the companies
:09:46. > :09:49.here, there is this whole question from UK Uncut, that there are
:09:49. > :09:55.companies not paying their full corporation tax, they would
:09:55. > :09:59.presumptionably, be seen by you, as the immoral face of capitalism?
:09:59. > :10:03.think the simple answer to that is, yes. We want to pay our share of
:10:03. > :10:07.taxes to the UK economy, we want to create jobs and do something for
:10:07. > :10:10.society. As it was said 30 years ago, a healthy high street needs a
:10:10. > :10:14.healthy back street. What all the companies you have here, and all
:10:14. > :10:18.the companies in BITC do, they understand that we need a strong
:10:18. > :10:22.society if we are going to build good, sustainable businesses, with
:10:22. > :10:24.good profits. The point about UK Uncut, they are right, there are
:10:25. > :10:27.some companies not paying full corporation tax. You talk about
:10:27. > :10:30.companies would do better to be more transparent, there is a
:10:30. > :10:35.problem, of course, when you don't pay full corporation tax, you don't
:10:35. > :10:41.want to be transparent? On the other hand, there are 840 member
:10:41. > :10:48.companies in Businesses in the Community, that are great examples
:10:48. > :10:53.of doing business with people in the community, ex-offenders. That
:10:53. > :10:58.far outweighs it. You would be against people not paying
:10:58. > :11:01.corporation tax? Everybody has to pay society. They are giving awe
:11:01. > :11:04.bad name? They have to pay their way. This idea that making money is
:11:04. > :11:09.a bad thing, it is a good thing. The suggestion would be that you
:11:09. > :11:13.can make your profit, but actually you pay a fair wage, you don't pay
:11:13. > :11:17.massive bonuses and put people, as it were, in the lower orders, on
:11:17. > :11:21.pay rises that don't even take care of inflation, that you act in a way
:11:22. > :11:25.that is moral, and a lot of companies don't? You have got to
:11:25. > :11:28.act in a trustworthy, moral, transparent way, that is seen as
:11:29. > :11:35.being fair. Some people may get paid more thans or, that would be
:11:35. > :11:39.seen as being fair. I pick -- others, that would be seen as fair?
:11:39. > :11:43.I pick you up on that, the companies that want a sustainable
:11:43. > :11:47.future know they have to treat all stakeholders with respect, their
:11:47. > :11:51.buyers, their employers, we have to get that right. We don't report on
:11:51. > :11:54.the news on companies that don't make their profit figures and don't
:11:54. > :11:58.get numbers, we report the few that have done well. We miss the
:11:58. > :12:02.thousands of companies, 10,000 companies are aligned to BITC,
:12:02. > :12:05.doing great work today, 40 companies got their community
:12:05. > :12:09.marked today, those 40 companies gave three quarters of a billion
:12:10. > :12:15.pounds to charity in the last four years. It is those stories that are
:12:15. > :12:20.really important. Let's talk about the differentials. Do you think, of
:12:21. > :12:24.in itself, the gap between the lowest paid and the highest paid is
:12:24. > :12:28.an issue? Can I just before we move on to that point, go back to the
:12:28. > :12:31.last point for a second. The point you were really trying to get at,
:12:32. > :12:36.is it immoral in some way that companies aren't paying their fair
:12:36. > :12:40.tax. I think what people look at is, if they are paying their taxes, why
:12:40. > :12:46.aren't company seen to pay their's. And big high-profile companies, I
:12:46. > :12:50.won't name them, but they are high- profile companies? It is right, if
:12:50. > :12:54.a company is not seen to be paying its tax it should be held to
:12:54. > :12:59.account, and there are many ways to do that. What we are saying is you
:12:59. > :13:02.have to have a balance, if you blow it up and say those fewer companies
:13:02. > :13:06.are systematic of what is happening in all business, then all business
:13:06. > :13:10.gets cast with the same shadow. Let's see, do you think there are
:13:10. > :13:14.predators and producers, do you think there are companies in this
:13:14. > :13:17.country more predatory than producing? The terminology is not
:13:17. > :13:20.helpful. Do I think there are really good companies that do a
:13:20. > :13:23.fantastic amount for the community, and also very strong, growing
:13:23. > :13:27.businesses that pay their taxes, which is good for the economy,
:13:27. > :13:31.absolutely. Are there some that don't? I'm absolutely sure there
:13:31. > :13:35.are, they have to be held to account as individuals. Not
:13:35. > :13:40.taornishing the whole of business. I do -- taornishing the whole of
:13:40. > :13:43.business. I think this is a danger for British business, when the
:13:43. > :13:52.media holds up one or two examples and says that is business.
:13:52. > :13:56.Hang on, these examples might be pretty stark examples. They might
:13:56. > :14:00.be getting away with it, and tarnishing you. On the question of
:14:00. > :14:04.differentials, lowest to highest paid, does the gap actually matter?
:14:04. > :14:11.I think it does, particularly to the people that work for you, in
:14:11. > :14:16.your company. They will look, I think, to see whoever is earning
:14:17. > :14:21.the most, and whether they think 245 person deserves it. There is a
:14:21. > :14:27.credibility - that person deserves it. There is a credibility issue.
:14:27. > :14:31.What is your's, the gap? The gap times the average is 50. What is
:14:31. > :14:36.the John Lewis partnership? constitution in the John Lewis
:14:36. > :14:41.partnership, says the highest-paid executive can't earn more than 75
:14:41. > :14:47.times the average partner. Do you think in terms of reputation for
:14:47. > :14:50.business, if there was the John Lewis-style 75-times more, would
:14:50. > :14:53.that be moral and responsible capitalism, do you think that is a
:14:53. > :14:57.model, if we rolled this out through many of the big companies,
:14:57. > :15:01.you would be seen to be more ethical, more upstanding? It is
:15:01. > :15:05.good to have a guide as a guiding principle, but it comes back to
:15:05. > :15:10.exactly that point. Would you be able to stand up in front of your
:15:10. > :15:12.employees, your associates, and for them to know how much you earned
:15:13. > :15:16.and to think it is fair. Trust is about doing the right thing and
:15:16. > :15:20.doing the fair thing, in society and your own business as well.
:15:20. > :15:25.think we would all see, if you want to survive in the long-term, and we
:15:25. > :15:32.are a fourth generation family company, 115 years, you only last
:15:32. > :15:37.that amount of time if you have the trust of all your stakeholders.
:15:37. > :15:41.Your customers and society at large. Do you, in terms of I don't know
:15:42. > :15:46.how your own salary is constituted, do you have a moral compass when it
:15:46. > :15:49.comes to a percentage you are paid more than your lowest worker?
:15:49. > :15:53.have a compass that says the people who own the company have to
:15:53. > :15:56.determine what it is to pay all the executives. What is the difference?
:15:57. > :16:00.I have no idea what the percentage is. Should you know? I don't think
:16:00. > :16:03.that is the fundamental issue. The fundamental issue is employees have
:16:03. > :16:05.to decide, the owners of the company, and the people who do
:16:05. > :16:09.business with us. If you are talking about restoring the
:16:09. > :16:13.reputation of business, if you thought that was, I'm not saying
:16:13. > :16:16.you have a bad reputation, if it was that the transparency issue,
:16:16. > :16:20.that would be one way, presumably, in which you could change what
:16:20. > :16:24.people think of the company, in some way? We would say, as a
:16:24. > :16:27.company, that we will be, and are totally transparent in the way we
:16:27. > :16:36.report. It is all available for employees, for all of our
:16:36. > :16:39.shareholders and customers. other point on this, what we do at
:16:40. > :16:42.Gregg s, 10% of all profits are shared with staff. There is
:16:43. > :16:47.something about when your employees feel they are benefiting in the
:16:47. > :16:52.success of the company. It is proportionate, but everyone is
:16:52. > :16:56.sharing in the success. How many employees are on minimum wage in
:16:56. > :17:00.the company? We are above minimum wage, and we work very hard to keep
:17:00. > :17:05.bof it. If you take the last three or four years, we have made sure we
:17:05. > :17:10.have a wage increase every year, this year it is 2.7 pay increase.
:17:10. > :17:16.Let's move on and talk about the budget. Not so much from the
:17:16. > :17:20.construction point of view, but retail, chocolate, pays trees, you
:17:20. > :17:25.are seeing what your custom -- pass trees, you are seeing what
:17:25. > :17:31.customers are buying every day? Consumer confidence is very low,
:17:31. > :17:36.lower than the Government recognises at the moment. In terms
:17:37. > :17:40.of the budget, anything that can be done to help the unemployed,
:17:40. > :17:43.disposable income, getting people back into the work force, has to be
:17:44. > :17:48.a good thing. In the budget what would you like to see, there is
:17:48. > :17:53.talk of cutting NI, cutting taxes for various things, and
:17:53. > :17:56.infrastructure, it would help Wates. What would you like to see?
:17:56. > :17:59.things would help, from a business point of view, absolute clarity
:17:59. > :18:02.from the Government in terms of corporation tax, and where we are
:18:02. > :18:05.going with that, so we can plan very much in how we will continue
:18:05. > :18:09.to invest as a business. The other one for me is actually
:18:09. > :18:13.infrastructure, believe it or not. I think if we can get some of these
:18:13. > :18:17.big schemes that create jobs, into the economy, then from a consumer
:18:17. > :18:24.point of view, that puts more money back into people's pockets, which
:18:24. > :18:27.actually means we have got more disposable income, which means
:18:27. > :18:31.people will spend again. One of the suggestions today was for
:18:31. > :18:34.deregulation, what people will see who are not in business about
:18:34. > :18:37.deregulation that it is easier to get rid of people and sack them?
:18:37. > :18:42.would like to see something that would make it easier for the work
:18:42. > :18:50.force, but it has to be fair. I would not support employees' rights
:18:50. > :18:53.being removed. We have to make sure it is fair, not just for businesses.
:18:54. > :18:57.Anything else for George Osborne? Consistency and getting down the
:18:57. > :19:02.national debt. We are spending too much on the state and we need to be
:19:02. > :19:06.in good shape, that trumps everything else. The what about
:19:06. > :19:10.cutting NI? There are a whole host of things in cutting tax, that is
:19:10. > :19:15.the most important thing. The other thing you can do is look at,
:19:15. > :19:19.different g the -- given the nation is short of funds, can we find
:19:19. > :19:24.smarter ways of using private finance, there is tremendous
:19:24. > :19:28.opportunities out there. One of the criticisms of businesses is your
:19:28. > :19:34.hoarding too much cash and you are keeping too much as a rainy day?
:19:34. > :19:38.can only Madam Speaker for us, we spent �21 million on two new
:19:38. > :19:43.bakeries, and record capital expenditure opening more shops and
:19:43. > :19:45.creating more jobs. Where I have seen, from my position as CBI
:19:45. > :19:49.chairman in the north-east, I have seen some of the smaller private
:19:49. > :19:52.companies, who are very cautious about the economy, who are not
:19:52. > :19:56.hearing good mood music coming out, whether that's from Government or
:19:56. > :20:01.from the media. There is all sorts of reasons why people will
:20:01. > :20:05.potentially hoard cash. We have to find way of giving them the
:20:05. > :20:09.confidence to invest now for the long-term. David Cameron said today
:20:09. > :20:12.business is the most powerful tool for social change, is that your
:20:12. > :20:18.job? It is the most exciting part of the job. The greatest source of
:20:18. > :20:22.pride is what we can do with young people in schools, we have today.
:20:22. > :20:26.Would you like to run a school? There is nothing more important for
:20:26. > :20:29.this nation than to transform the opportunity for every child, so
:20:29. > :20:34.they are able to have the best opportunities in life. So I think
:20:34. > :20:38.that education, which is why we have, in business in the community,
:20:38. > :20:45.a long-term partnership programme between 115 companies, and 150
:20:45. > :20:49.schools, with the aim of moving that to 500 by 2014, because we can
:20:49. > :20:52.raise aspirations. That is a bigger model, as a company would you like
:20:53. > :20:56.to run a school? That is not what this is about. Some companies do
:20:56. > :21:00.want to do that? We are talking about a mutual model, it is about a
:21:00. > :21:04.force for change. What is in it for us, employees go out there, they
:21:04. > :21:09.get great skills, they start to mentor, mentor other kids in
:21:09. > :21:12.schools and programmes, they come back more rounded individuals. Also
:21:12. > :21:16.what we find is we are building skills in the environment in which
:21:16. > :21:21.we are employing from. I know business people they would be the
:21:21. > :21:24.better people to run training academys, and turn round
:21:24. > :21:29.aspirations for young children, for whom the standard model of schools
:21:29. > :21:33.is not what they want, they want a more targeted thing? We want to run
:21:33. > :21:38.great businesses and create jobs, we want to serve our stakeholders.
:21:38. > :21:44.In Business In The Community, we are absolutely focused on getting
:21:44. > :21:48.young people into work. How we are doing that, Paul runs a great
:21:48. > :21:52.business class on getting people into work in school, we have
:21:52. > :21:55.146,000 work placements we have apprenticeship and mentoring
:21:55. > :22:00.schemes. We are concerned as a group to do all we can to get young
:22:00. > :22:06.people working. I will talk about unemployment in a moment. The
:22:06. > :22:09.Government has set enormous store on the work schemes to get that two
:22:09. > :22:13.million unemployed down and get them into companies like we are
:22:13. > :22:20.talking about tonight. The boss of one training company, A4e, under
:22:20. > :22:23.police investigation, resigned today from the role of Government's
:22:23. > :22:26.Families' Champion. I will ask today whether David Cameron failed
:22:26. > :22:32.to do due diligence on Emma Harrison. First the twists and
:22:32. > :22:36.turns on the work experience row. Great play is being made of the
:22:36. > :22:41.welfare-to-work idea. But is the dizzying number of ideas,
:22:41. > :22:45.programmes and schemes, really providing value, at best it is
:22:45. > :22:49.swings and roundabouts, according to Sarah. She has had two spells
:22:49. > :22:53.with the Government's favourite job seeking firm, A4e. She was sent to
:22:53. > :22:57.be coached into finding work, instead they gave her a placement,
:22:57. > :23:03.unpaid, training as their receptionist. To begin with, I
:23:03. > :23:06.didn't mind, I needed the experience, I wanted to get into
:23:06. > :23:10.reception/administration, and I had no previous experience, it was a
:23:10. > :23:16.stepping stone for me. You did the 13 weeks, unpaid? That's right.
:23:16. > :23:22.Then what happened? They decided to take me on as a full-time employee.
:23:22. > :23:25.For Sarah, back then, five years ago, it seemed ideal. For A4e too,
:23:25. > :23:28.it would have earned them more Government cash, first for getting
:23:29. > :23:35.Sarah a placement, although with themselves, and then for getting
:23:35. > :23:38.her a paid job, again at A4e. It is firms like A4e, that are supposed
:23:38. > :23:42.to search out jobs in the woj programme, the Government's big
:23:42. > :23:48.idea to use the private and voluntary sectors to cut
:23:48. > :23:51.unemployment. The programme's 18 providers, running back to work
:23:51. > :23:56.schemes, are only part of the picture. The first point of contact
:23:56. > :24:00.is the Jobcentre, sending job seekers on other routes. Some are
:24:00. > :24:05.put on mandatory work activity. We asked how many, the Department for
:24:05. > :24:08.Work and Pensions hasn't replied. Meanwhile it is the unpaid, work
:24:08. > :24:12.experience placements, that have caused the recent controversy. They
:24:12. > :24:17.are arranged through the Jobcentre, and are initially voluntary. If
:24:17. > :24:21.they stick it out for a week at Tescos and elsewhere, they have to
:24:21. > :24:25.remain in place for up to two months, or risk losing benefits.
:24:25. > :24:30.That has exposed big firms to accusations they are making money
:24:30. > :24:33.for from people struggling to find work. It is really important people
:24:33. > :24:38.volunteer to take up work experience placements, we know it
:24:38. > :24:42.is an important way to get back into the work place. We think it is
:24:42. > :24:47.equally important, that organisations, whether charity or
:24:47. > :24:51.corporates, offer good quality work experience placements too. It seems
:24:51. > :24:54.issues around the benefit rules are getting in the way, with companies
:24:55. > :24:57.volunteering and wanting to put in those placements. We think the
:24:57. > :25:02.Government should look at the benefit rules again. David Cameron
:25:02. > :25:06.and the gang at Number Ten, that is the typically matey way A4e's boss,
:25:06. > :25:12.Emma Harrison, refers to her friends in Government. Well, the
:25:12. > :25:16.gang, may be interested to know, that Sarah, the A4e jobseeker who
:25:16. > :25:21.became an A4e employee, has a second part to her story.
:25:21. > :25:27.I tried to make the most of it, I mean I thought there was no use me
:25:27. > :25:35.sitting around doing nothing, so I, it was put towards me whether I
:25:35. > :25:40.could help out. You were helping advising other job seekers how to
:25:40. > :25:43.find jobs? That's right. You were looking for a job yourself? I was,
:25:43. > :25:51.yes. What assistance did you get this time? I didn't get any
:25:51. > :25:55.assistance at all, I did everything myself, I didn't get any advice.
:25:55. > :25:59.The last week of the 13th week I found a job. You did? That was all
:25:59. > :26:06.off my own back, nobody helped me. But you were on their books,
:26:06. > :26:09.though? I was, yes. A4e, like every private job seeking
:26:09. > :26:13.firm would pick up another Government fee for that. Tonight,
:26:13. > :26:19.Emma Harrison, the chairman, has resigned from her other Government
:26:19. > :26:23.job, the called Families Champion, saying she didn't want the current
:26:23. > :26:27.media environment to detract from very important work with troubled
:26:27. > :26:36.families. I spoke to Chris Grayling, the Employment Minister earlier
:26:36. > :26:40.today. Let's begin today with the resignation of Emma Harrison as the
:26:40. > :26:43.Families' Champion, was due diligence done on Emma Harrison?
:26:43. > :26:47.First of all, I can't really comment very much about what's
:26:47. > :26:52.happening, there is obviously an on going police investigation. We put
:26:53. > :26:57.out a very clear statement to the department yesterday, saying we had
:26:57. > :27:00.reminded A4e of their contractual ob gauges to us. She has ob --
:27:00. > :27:03.obligations to us, she has obviously taken the decision she
:27:03. > :27:08.has taken today. Because of the on going police investigation it is
:27:08. > :27:13.not right for me to say anything further. Historically since 2005,
:27:13. > :27:18.there have been nine investigations into ra. 4E, five of which resulted
:27:18. > :27:22.in the return of public money. Surely that is a huge failure of
:27:22. > :27:28.judgment by David Cameron. issue when we address any concern
:27:28. > :27:31.of what happens in a sub contractor to any Government department is any
:27:31. > :27:35.organisation can have an individual localised problem, the issue always
:27:35. > :27:38.for any department looking at these issues is whether the problem is
:27:38. > :27:45.systemic. We have been very clear in the statement we made yesterday,
:27:45. > :27:48.that we would, in the case of a systemic issue, we would not
:27:48. > :27:53.hesitate to terminate our relationship with A4e, that is all
:27:53. > :27:56.we can say now. One final point on this, when she was appointed as
:27:56. > :27:59.families' champion, these investigations had been going on
:27:59. > :28:05.before that. This is not something new, it was a failure of judgment?
:28:05. > :28:08.Look, I think the detail of what's happened, we treat anybody,
:28:08. > :28:12.organisation, individual, in this country, as innocent until proven
:28:12. > :28:14.guilty. I think it is important to wait and see what happens at the
:28:14. > :28:19.end of the police investigation before we form any judgments.
:28:19. > :28:22.move on now, sticking with A4e, this is something new, and a
:28:22. > :28:26.Newsnight investigation has discovered this today, that
:28:26. > :28:31.somebody, who was an unemployed client of A4e, was subsequently
:28:31. > :28:35.employed by A4e, did you know about that? There are very many examples
:28:35. > :28:39.this the welfare-to-work industry of people who have been unemployed
:28:39. > :28:43.who have gone on to become employment advisers. As long as it
:28:43. > :28:47.is a proper, long-term position, that is a totally sensible thing to
:28:47. > :28:50.do. If somebody has been unemployed, they have the personality and skill
:28:50. > :28:53.and able to mentor other people unemployed, there is nothing at all
:28:53. > :28:56.unreasonable about that. In establishing the work programme,
:28:56. > :28:59.and you have to recognise that all these issues predate the work
:28:59. > :29:02.programme and the current programme. They are programmes that existed
:29:02. > :29:06.under the previous Government. What we have done is we have put
:29:06. > :29:10.together a package that means the providers aren't paid until an
:29:10. > :29:13.unemployed person has been in work for six months. There is no
:29:13. > :29:17.question of somebody being able to put a short-term work placement in
:29:17. > :29:21.their office, it couldn't happen under the programme. What you are
:29:21. > :29:26.saying, basically, is if A4e, or any other provider, has an
:29:26. > :29:30.unemployed person comes to them, takes them on, and that person
:29:30. > :29:34.stays. After six months how much does the provider get? After six
:29:34. > :29:38.months, typically, it is just over �1,000, so the sums don't add up.
:29:38. > :29:43.To take someone on, even on the national minimum wage, you will pay
:29:43. > :29:46.them many thoiss of pounds. I would not in any way want to prevent the
:29:46. > :29:51.welfare-to-work industry from recruiting some previously
:29:52. > :29:56.unemployed people to be meant tord by the currently unemployed. Surely
:29:56. > :30:02.-- men tord by currently unemployed people. There are many who have
:30:03. > :30:06.emerged from difficult times and ended up in roles providing
:30:06. > :30:11.mentoring to those having a difficult time. The woj programme
:30:11. > :30:16.makes it impossible for it to be a - the work programme makes it
:30:16. > :30:20.impossible for someone to take on somebody for a six month period and
:30:20. > :30:23.claim a payment after it. You have lots of schemes. Let's talk about
:30:23. > :30:31.the work experience scheme specifically, specifically
:30:31. > :30:36.unemployed people working for profit-making companies. Do they
:30:36. > :30:39.have to take the placement? We have been very clear, the purpose of the
:30:39. > :30:42.scheme is it is a voluntary scheme to provide young unemployed people
:30:42. > :30:46.with an opportunity to get into the work place, and demonstrate to a
:30:46. > :30:50.potential employer what they can offer, or gain experience they can
:30:50. > :30:54.take to an interview elsewhere. think go to this profit-making
:30:54. > :30:58.company -- if they go to this profit-making company, and leave
:30:58. > :31:02.again, do they have their benefits taken away from them? The situation
:31:03. > :31:06.is very straight forward. The scheme is voluntary, they will meet
:31:06. > :31:09.the potential ploiper, if they are happy they will -- employer, if
:31:09. > :31:14.they are happy they will start the placement. If the placement doesn't
:31:14. > :31:18.work out they can leave in the first few days. If they leave at a
:31:18. > :31:23.later date we will investigate the reason, if they leave without good
:31:23. > :31:29.reason, rude to the employer or walked away, they could face a
:31:29. > :31:33.sanction. That is the same sanction they might face up to for not
:31:33. > :31:36.attending a job interview. within a wiek if they choose to
:31:36. > :31:40.leave the scheme they will have benefit taken away from them, it is
:31:40. > :31:44.not voluntary it is compulsory? is voluntary, they don't need to be
:31:44. > :31:48.there in the first place. If you say if someone goes on a placement,
:31:48. > :31:51.the company provides a mentor and uniform, and down the line they are
:31:51. > :31:58.rude and walk out, are you saying there should be no consequence at
:31:58. > :32:01.all for that person. There could be lolts of reasons they could -- lots
:32:01. > :32:06.of reasons they could leave. If they leave after the first week and
:32:06. > :32:10.face the sanction of their benefits being taken away, that equates to
:32:10. > :32:13.compulsory? It is not automatic, we would only sanction somebody if
:32:13. > :32:16.they left without good cause in circumstances of the kind I have
:32:17. > :32:22.described. There has to be an issue here. We are putting a lot of
:32:22. > :32:27.effort, and are employers, into giving young people a chance.
:32:27. > :32:31.essentially cheap labour? Nonsense, if I thought any employer was using
:32:31. > :32:35.it to replace staff, I would stop referring. I don't accept, in the
:32:35. > :32:39.case of Tesco, taking someone and giving them four weeks work
:32:39. > :32:44.experience, and the possibility of a job afterwards, is anything but
:32:44. > :32:48.giving them a chance in life. When you have companies in manufacturing
:32:48. > :32:52.and technology is anybody saying we shouldn't help young people to get
:32:52. > :32:55.into the work place and show off what they can do, and go into work.
:32:55. > :33:02.Half of the young people in the scheme are coming off benefits as a
:33:02. > :33:12.result. Our four CEOs are still here.
:33:12. > :33:14.
:33:14. > :33:17.Mark Price, Fiona Dawson, Ken McMeiken, and Paul Dreschler.
:33:17. > :33:22.Are you comfortable with young people coming to you and leaving
:33:22. > :33:25.after a week and having benefits taken away? I'm not comfortable
:33:25. > :33:29.about that part of the scheme. We are giving unemployed youngsters a
:33:29. > :33:33.real opportunity to get work experience, we are giving them
:33:33. > :33:37.great training, mentoring, it enables us to give them a reference
:33:37. > :33:41.if they don't come and work for us at the end of it. Half of the
:33:41. > :33:45.people we have taken through on our scheme are now in employment, after
:33:45. > :33:49.anything from a four to eight week placement. Let's stick with the
:33:49. > :33:52.idea you are not comfortable with, if you are not comfortable with it,
:33:52. > :33:56.are you able to do anything about it? I have asked for talks with
:33:56. > :33:59.Government, there will be a meeting next week, along with other
:33:59. > :34:03.business leaders, to talk about the issue. With Chris Grayling?
:34:03. > :34:08.after a week or more, you decide as an individual, that it is not
:34:08. > :34:11.working for you, and you leave the scheme, we don't believe at Greggs,
:34:11. > :34:15.that the benefit should be taken away from them. Our view is if they
:34:15. > :34:19.are volunteering for the scheme, and for whatever reason they come
:34:19. > :34:23.off, they go back on to benefits. Are you in the minority in this,
:34:23. > :34:26.are there a number of businesses going with it? I don't know how
:34:26. > :34:29.many businesses are going with it. We have asked in response to our
:34:29. > :34:33.concerns about this part of the scheme we have a meeting and talk
:34:33. > :34:37.about it. Do you think it undermines the scheme, a number of
:34:37. > :34:41.companies, as you well know have pulled out of it, and Tesco's, this
:34:41. > :34:45.is a different point, Tesco's have said they are doing benefit plus
:34:45. > :34:51.now, plus payment, would you alter your attitude to that and follow
:34:51. > :34:55.the Tesco model, separate from people losing their benefits to
:34:55. > :34:58.make it seem more morally reasonable. You have young people
:34:58. > :35:03.working side-by-side with workers doing the same job but getting full
:35:03. > :35:09.pay? There is a different point of it, they are coming into jobs that
:35:09. > :35:12.we have created as additional to what we need to get job experience,
:35:12. > :35:15.otherwise they wouldn't exist. We have created them to give them the
:35:15. > :35:20.training, the experience, the mentoring, the coaching and the
:35:20. > :35:22.support, then, hopefully, and nearly half of the people that we
:35:22. > :35:26.have had through our scheme over the last eight months, are now
:35:26. > :35:29.working for us or working for other companies. The other half that
:35:29. > :35:33.aren't, we are actually able to give them a really good reference
:35:33. > :35:37.to say they have actually spent time with us. I have asked the
:35:37. > :35:41.people we have had through Greggs on the scheme, whether they should
:35:41. > :35:45.thought we should continue doing the scheme or pull out.
:35:45. > :35:48.Unequivocally they said stay in it. They said you need to see it for
:35:48. > :35:52.them, this is a lifeline that gives them an opportunity to get a job.
:35:52. > :35:58.They need a job. Would you be comfortable continuing with the
:35:58. > :36:02.scheme if they do not remove this threat for take away benefit, it is
:36:03. > :36:07.a very big threat -- taking away benefit, it is a very big threat?
:36:07. > :36:11.would hope the response would be to continue with the scheme as it is
:36:11. > :36:16.going. If more than a week after people come off, they would lose
:36:16. > :36:20.benefits. You can see why a company like Tesco's has changed their
:36:20. > :36:25.approach to this, they were targeted, but you are not involved
:36:25. > :36:29.in the scheme, but as an employer would you be comfortable taking
:36:29. > :36:33.people on benefits, and not paying something towards the employment?
:36:33. > :36:36.It depends on the role, clearly with ourselves and Greggs, we have
:36:36. > :36:39.a variety of different schemes. This is what we have to do with
:36:39. > :36:43.building schemes in our work place and the communities involved. There
:36:43. > :36:48.are many ways of doing it, work placement is one of them. A
:36:48. > :36:52.mentoring scheme, we have over 50% of our employers who volunteer in
:36:52. > :36:55.the local community. Most that have is skills based, which is terrific.
:36:55. > :36:59.I think, you know, it is not about the fact that these people who come
:36:59. > :37:03.and work in our business, are necessarily doing a full-time job,
:37:03. > :37:07.they are jobs in addition to the jobs we would normally have. We
:37:07. > :37:14.want to create a mind set of work, which is incred below important at
:37:14. > :37:19.the same time. Construction is incredibly difficult at the moment,
:37:19. > :37:23.would you support this scheme? the Prince's Trust we have given
:37:23. > :37:27.3,000 young people the opportunity to experience the world of work,
:37:27. > :37:33.build their confidence. Of those, this is a very short, two-week
:37:33. > :37:37.programme, of those, 53% go into employment afterwards, and 20% go
:37:37. > :37:40.into training afterwards. These are some of the one million young
:37:40. > :37:44.people in this country not in education, employment or training,
:37:44. > :37:48.these programmes can make a big difference. If they are undermined
:37:48. > :37:51.because they are seen as unfair, predatory, and a substitute for
:37:51. > :37:55.people who are actually in full- time employment, then actually it
:37:55. > :38:04.is a displaysment activity and will be completely undermined? Sorry,
:38:04. > :38:07.there is a small minority of people out there who don't like the scheme.
:38:07. > :38:09.When you talk to young people on the scheme they like it, they want
:38:09. > :38:14.us to continue offering it as employers.
:38:15. > :38:21.Thank you very much. With the world's eyes on the
:38:21. > :38:25.violence in Syria, the aftermath of the revolution has moved off the
:38:26. > :38:34.crisis. But the highest-ranking officer in custody today, has
:38:34. > :38:44.spoken to Newsnight today. Our diplomatic editor Mark Urban
:38:44. > :38:44.
:38:44. > :38:51.visited his jail sell in Misrata. This was where the Gaddafi regime
:38:51. > :38:54.made its last stand. It was to Sirte, the former leader's home
:38:54. > :38:59.town, where he came last year, after the fall of the capital. And
:38:59. > :39:07.where, as this last haven was besieged, his inner circle saw
:39:07. > :39:11.their world crumble. TRANSLATION: For us as military personnel, for
:39:11. > :39:15.me personal, the situation was terminal. However, we didn't know
:39:15. > :39:19.what other people's feelings or views were. The situation was
:39:19. > :39:24.precarious, none the less, there were no hospitals or doctors, nor
:39:24. > :39:34.power, or medicine, or communication. We had returned to a
:39:34. > :39:38.
:39:38. > :39:44.primitive life style. On the 20th of October, Gaddafi,
:39:44. > :39:51.seeing the end was near, tried to flee with his last, most loyal men,
:39:51. > :39:57.in a convoy of armed 4X4s. The dictator said they were heading to
:39:57. > :40:05.the village he had been born. But spotting the vehicles from the air,
:40:05. > :40:09.the Libyan revolution's foreign friends had other ideas.
:40:09. > :40:14.TRANSLATION: NATO hit us twice, once while we were moving. But the
:40:14. > :40:18.impact wasn't on the vehicle, it was on two cars behind us. Our car
:40:18. > :40:22.stopped, the air bag deployed and the engine seized. We had to change
:40:22. > :40:26.to another car, only Gaddafi suffered a small wound from the
:40:26. > :40:31.glass shards, not anything else. All the vehicles grouped at a power
:40:31. > :40:35.station and again we were targeted by NATO planes, and attacked
:40:35. > :40:40.forcefully. Although we got out of the vehicles, the firing continued,
:40:40. > :40:44.and people were shot, and suffered burns.
:40:44. > :40:50.(scheming) With survivors of the convoy trying
:40:50. > :41:00.to get away on foot, Gaddafi, and his son were captured.
:41:00. > :41:04.
:41:04. > :41:09.General Dhao, bearded at this time, was taken alive, but wounded.
:41:09. > :41:19.In jail today, he remains unrepentant in his loyalty to the
:41:19. > :41:23.former leader, and is still urging people to follow his ideas.
:41:23. > :41:27.TRANSLATION: Gaddafi was in power for 42 years, had he strong ideas,
:41:27. > :41:32.and tremendous support. I don't think that will disappear overnight.
:41:32. > :41:39.Gaddafi is dead, that's true, but his ideas as a philosopher, or as a
:41:39. > :41:44.politician, will live on. These may carry on and be adopted by non-
:41:44. > :41:51.Libyans and appear elsewhere outside Libya. All the philosophers
:41:51. > :41:56.of the world had their ideas adopted after their death.
:41:56. > :42:02.The general has now been in prison for four months. Like many others,
:42:02. > :42:08.locked up by the revolution, he has been held in a legal limbo. Have
:42:08. > :42:12.you seen a lawyer, do you know whether you will face a trial?
:42:12. > :42:19.TRANSLATION: No. Do you know whether you will face charges, will
:42:19. > :42:26.there be a trial, have they told you anything? TRANSLATION: No, no.
:42:26. > :42:30.How do you see your future now? TRANSLATION: Let's try to look out
:42:30. > :42:35.of the window. I can't foresee the future, I don't know what the mood
:42:35. > :42:45.on the street is like. I have no idea or contact or visits from the
:42:45. > :42:46.
:42:46. > :42:49.outside world. I can't tell you what the future will hold.
:42:49. > :42:57.The general is accused by the revolution of involvement in many
:42:57. > :43:00.of the crimes of the Gaddafi years. As our interview drew to a close,
:43:00. > :43:04.the prison director challenged his detainee to provide more
:43:04. > :43:09.information. TRANSLATION: I wish you would be
:43:09. > :43:12.more co-operative. TRANSLATION: I swear to God that
:43:12. > :43:17.any question you have asked me I have answered. You must have trust
:43:17. > :43:25.in me, even if you have received contrary information, you must
:43:25. > :43:29.trust me. TRANSLATION: This is an interview
:43:29. > :43:33.and you are in custody, it is possible that you are afraid.
:43:33. > :43:41.However, the questions are there for you to answer, whether now or
:43:41. > :43:46.in the internal section. TRANSLATION: I answered you, I
:43:46. > :43:52.swear to God I have no further about this evidence someone has
:43:52. > :43:57.passed on. If I had any information, why wouldn't I tell you?
:43:57. > :44:07.TRANSLATION: The reason I ask, is why keep this information from us?
:44:07. > :44:12.There is some information that you haven't given us.
:44:12. > :44:16.TRANSLATION: No, no, whatever I had, I gave. But sometimes you think I
:44:16. > :44:22.have information that I don't have. Why would I want to keep
:44:22. > :44:29.information from you? The director also accused his captive of
:44:29. > :44:33.involvement in the Abu Saleemmassacre, the killing of 1200
:44:33. > :44:39.prisoners in 1996. TRANSLATION: stated you were in an office with
:44:39. > :44:45.the head of intelligence and you saw an explosion. TRANSLATION:
:44:45. > :44:49.no, Ibrahim, you have got the documents. We left the one-time
:44:49. > :44:55.head of the Libyan people's guard, in the hands of those who still
:44:55. > :45:00.believe he can unlock many of the old regime's secrets. As an