0:00:01 > 0:00:04More trouble for the government's Welfare to Work plans tonight. The
0:00:04 > 0:00:09head of a company with millions of pounds worth of government
0:00:09 > 0:00:12contracts steps down from her job after allegations of fraud.
0:00:13 > 0:00:15Meanwhile, corporate Britain gets cold feet. Can a handful of
0:00:16 > 0:00:23activists and a Twitter feed make the government change a key policy
0:00:23 > 0:00:27on work experience? The minister calls the campaigners
0:00:27 > 0:00:31a front for the Socialist Workers Party. Has the internet picked up
0:00:31 > 0:00:34where the trade union movement left off? The place protest can be heard
0:00:34 > 0:00:40the loudest. We'll see the activists go head-to-head with the
0:00:40 > 0:00:45Conservatives in the studio. Also: The Syrian opposition lobby to buy
0:00:45 > 0:00:49weapons from abroad. Should they be allowed to? We speak to the foreign
0:00:49 > 0:00:59office from Tunisia. How to get tough on crime when there's no
0:00:59 > 0:01:00
0:01:00 > 0:01:03money? You lock people up in their own houses.
0:01:03 > 0:01:06Tonight, a policy in trouble. In a moment we will examine why major
0:01:06 > 0:01:08high street companies appear to be wobbling over a government work
0:01:08 > 0:01:10experience scheme for the unemployed but first, the Prime
0:01:11 > 0:01:14Minister's former family champion, Emma Harrison, has stepped down as
0:01:14 > 0:01:21chair of the Welfare to Work firm which is at the centre of a police
0:01:21 > 0:01:29fraud investigation. The company has billions of pounds of
0:01:29 > 0:01:36government contracts. Our political editor is here. Tell us more about
0:01:36 > 0:01:40this company? The Emma Harrison it was very popular. She was seen to
0:01:40 > 0:01:45be an inspirational figure, quite different from the faceless people
0:01:45 > 0:01:49who would help people into work. If you hear interviews with her, she
0:01:49 > 0:01:53would talk about helping people turn around their lives and
0:01:53 > 0:01:58persuaded the Prime Minister that she was worth it, and her company
0:01:58 > 0:02:05was worth putting large amounts of government money into. She built
0:02:05 > 0:02:10the company up over 25 years. She was a persuasive character but this
0:02:10 > 0:02:14evening she has stood down. The Daily Mail had been pushing on
0:02:14 > 0:02:19allegations of fraud within her company. Tomorrow they were going
0:02:19 > 0:02:26to run a story, they have a headline saying, now she is out of
0:02:26 > 0:02:30work. The story that will be in tomorrow's Cooper that she clearly
0:02:30 > 0:02:33felt was a story too far, that her employees were encouraging people
0:02:34 > 0:02:39to help with the numbers of getting people into work by giving them
0:02:39 > 0:02:42champagne and forging signatures. That it is a problem for the
0:02:42 > 0:02:47government because she is in receipt of such a large amount of
0:02:47 > 0:02:53government money. It started recently when she was found to have
0:02:53 > 0:03:00given herself large dividends and this is government money so that
0:03:00 > 0:03:05was the beginning. The allegations are unproven and the investigation
0:03:05 > 0:03:11is ongoing but give us a sense of the reaction tonight politically to
0:03:11 > 0:03:19her quitting her job? Liam Byrne has said she has done the right
0:03:19 > 0:03:23thing. We have had calls throughout the day. Chris Grayling said they
0:03:23 > 0:03:27would not have that it that there was evidence of wrongdoing will
0:03:27 > 0:03:32stop she felt she was no longer getting the support she once
0:03:32 > 0:03:35enjoyed. You have other politicians calling for the Serious Fraud
0:03:35 > 0:03:39Office to be involved so I suppose she is wanting to go away and clear
0:03:39 > 0:03:42her name and come back for work. Today as pressure continued to grow
0:03:42 > 0:03:44on British retailers to rethink their involvement in the
0:03:44 > 0:03:49Government's work experience scheme, the employment minister Chris
0:03:49 > 0:03:51Grayling said the campaign was one cooked up by Socialist Workers. The
0:03:51 > 0:03:55activists call the programme, which sees people working without
0:03:55 > 0:03:58receiving payment from the employers, slave labour. The
0:03:58 > 0:04:03government insists there is no mandatory element and says the
0:04:03 > 0:04:07majority of British people support it. So why has the business world
0:04:07 > 0:04:17been so cowed by this? Could it really be down to a vocal campaign
0:04:17 > 0:04:18
0:04:18 > 0:04:23and a lot of Twitter? The politically then took wreckers
0:04:24 > 0:04:25were out in force today, all eight of them, voicing his Gawain at
0:04:25 > 0:04:29these offices, the most controversial of the private
0:04:29 > 0:04:32companies contracted by the government to help the unemployed.
0:04:32 > 0:04:35The protesters laugh at the Minister's claim that they are some
0:04:35 > 0:04:40sort of this column, they simply reveal big companies getting people
0:04:40 > 0:04:47to work for nothing and they say it has all happened so quickly though
0:04:47 > 0:04:55stop in response to Tesco's involvement, we intervene to and
0:04:55 > 0:05:01supported a protest outside the Westminster Tesco. You have had a
0:05:01 > 0:05:05success? Yes. The support has been massive for the campaign. Chris
0:05:05 > 0:05:10Grayling says the Socialist Workers Party are behind all this?
0:05:10 > 0:05:16disagree, I am not a member of that party and I am not involved in it.
0:05:16 > 0:05:23It is broader than just a small group of radicals, it would have to
0:05:23 > 0:05:26be to tackle big companies like Tesco. He claimed people were
0:05:26 > 0:05:33organising a online but what is really happening on line seems more
0:05:33 > 0:05:39finely balanced. In the last 24 hours, they have been over 211
0:05:39 > 0:05:43interactions on a Twitter. They reveal a three-way split between
0:05:43 > 0:05:48those in favour of government policy, those against, and at those
0:05:48 > 0:05:52deemed neutral. This man is an activist in the modern day in.
0:05:52 > 0:05:58Inside Westminster, he is a researcher for a Labour MP. Outside,
0:05:58 > 0:06:01he is engaged in various extra parliamentary campaigns, from Save
0:06:01 > 0:06:07the educational maintenance allowance, to others. Chris
0:06:07 > 0:06:12Grayling would say that you are one of the extremists? Chris Grayling
0:06:12 > 0:06:19honestly believes that a multinational organisation like
0:06:19 > 0:06:26Tesco is scared of the SNP. The SWP don't really exist if we're honest.
0:06:26 > 0:06:30A lot of these people are our young people who are idle and using the
0:06:31 > 0:06:33skills they have, which is on-line media schools. The Labour Party are
0:06:33 > 0:06:39in a difficult position over this because they came up with these
0:06:39 > 0:06:46schemes? My personal views on that, as a member of the late departure,
0:06:46 > 0:06:50you should always be someone who in your core belief, that you believe
0:06:50 > 0:06:55in a fair day's wage for a fair day's labour. You don't need to be
0:06:55 > 0:07:03a member of the Socialist Party are one of Chris Grayling's grips to
0:07:03 > 0:07:09know that a single issue at the right time can have a huge impact.
0:07:09 > 0:07:12In the case of a Welfare to Work, the Little Lever has been well and
0:07:12 > 0:07:16truly build on the big corporations have taken fright. Last week this
0:07:16 > 0:07:21Tesco's branch opposite Parliament was the scene for a protest against
0:07:21 > 0:07:24welfare to work. Since then, the clouds have been gathering. A
0:07:24 > 0:07:29Conservative think-tank produced a report claiming overwhelming
0:07:29 > 0:07:35support for work fair a year ago with 80% wanting unemployed to work
0:07:35 > 0:07:38before getting benefits. 50% felt benefit rates were too high. How
0:07:38 > 0:07:44does the same think tank believe such a study would turn out amid
0:07:44 > 0:07:48the current right? What the public do want to see very clearly is an
0:07:48 > 0:07:54element of something for something in welfare reform. That is what
0:07:54 > 0:07:57this is, in his claimants doing something for getting the benefits.
0:07:57 > 0:08:01Let's put this into context, this is not a free ride for the firms,
0:08:01 > 0:08:05they are providing experience and training at getting people into
0:08:05 > 0:08:13work who have had very little experience. But they are pulling
0:08:13 > 0:08:18out now? I think it is a shame. Welfare to work is listing badly.
0:08:18 > 0:08:20Protesters have blown a hole in one of the government's biggest big
0:08:20 > 0:08:23ideas. Joining me now is Conservative MP
0:08:23 > 0:08:26and member of the work and pensions select committee, Brandan Lewis,
0:08:26 > 0:08:28the National Co-ordinator for Youth Fight for Jobs and Education, Paul
0:08:28 > 0:08:31Callanan and managing director of Wolff Olins, a brand consultancy
0:08:31 > 0:08:39company who have fought for some of the biggest supermarkets in Britain,
0:08:39 > 0:08:45Ije Nwokorie. I'm wondering how be got to this
0:08:45 > 0:08:50point where you have major British businesses really wobbling about
0:08:50 > 0:08:54their involvement in a government scheme that they had signed up to?
0:08:54 > 0:08:57That is a real shame as companies that there have a commercial due to
0:08:57 > 0:09:02take to look at what their reputation will be and what this
0:09:02 > 0:09:06will mean for them. That is why they wanted talk to the government.
0:09:06 > 0:09:10We've just got to make sure that we don't lose are really good scheme
0:09:10 > 0:09:13because of a pressure group with a particular itinerary, doing
0:09:14 > 0:09:17something that could damage the best interest of the people they
0:09:17 > 0:09:22represent. You call it a pressure group but it has hit the spot,
0:09:23 > 0:09:28there must be something there if they are pulling back? Tesco's are
0:09:28 > 0:09:31still part of the scheme and other companies want to reassure
0:09:31 > 0:09:33themselves and I can see why they would want to do that but we have
0:09:33 > 0:09:37to make sure we keep this scheme going because it is getting young
0:09:37 > 0:09:42people an opportunity to get work experience and jobs and that is
0:09:42 > 0:09:45what we desperately need. You saw some of the survey results, you are
0:09:46 > 0:09:50not representative of most people in this company who think you
0:09:50 > 0:09:54should get something and give something? You are doing something
0:09:55 > 0:09:58for nothing with these schemes and I would disagree, the vast majority
0:09:58 > 0:10:03don't want to see their kids going out to work for their dole money,
0:10:03 > 0:10:07they want to see their kids get a decent wage and decent conditions.
0:10:07 > 0:10:10Or stay at home and just get the benefits and not do anything?
0:10:10 > 0:10:14Nobody wants to see that but at the same time, nobody wants to see
0:10:14 > 0:10:20their kids sold off into slave labour and the reason these kids
0:10:20 > 0:10:26are wobbling is that they know what it'll do for their reputation,
0:10:26 > 0:10:30ticking on the unemployed and not paying for it, it is incredibly
0:10:30 > 0:10:35damaging for these companies and rightly so. Are they right to be
0:10:35 > 0:10:39having second thoughts, I find that odd that you get all these
0:10:39 > 0:10:43companies could reasonably thought about the reputation and talk to
0:10:43 > 0:10:47the government, suddenly saying, what are we doing? I don't think it
0:10:47 > 0:10:55is odd at all. In this climate with people worried about where their
0:10:55 > 0:10:58next pay cheque is coming from, anything that comes from work, the
0:10:58 > 0:11:02big gap is they seem to have gone into this without thinking about
0:11:02 > 0:11:07the purpose for it beyond profit. They don't seem to have a quick
0:11:07 > 0:11:12story about why we are in this in the first place. I think there is
0:11:12 > 0:11:17what these organisations need to get here about. It is not the big
0:11:17 > 0:11:22business about the merits of the programme, it is about, why are we
0:11:22 > 0:11:29doing this? Is that the government's problem? You spoke
0:11:29 > 0:11:34about the pressure of the social media, there were 211 treats on
0:11:34 > 0:11:43offer to work, that is nothing? got to be careful about how we read
0:11:43 > 0:11:47that because that is messages that had the hash out on them. There are
0:11:47 > 0:11:51probably more on this. What would you concede that this could be
0:11:51 > 0:11:57taken out of proportion, that actually people are not as angry as
0:11:57 > 0:12:01may be the Socialist media thinks? The reaction I have had is very
0:12:01 > 0:12:04much they do think this is a good scheme. This is giving a young
0:12:04 > 0:12:08people the chance for work experience. The only that his
0:12:08 > 0:12:14people who are rich and have contacts. This is the government
0:12:14 > 0:12:18the ring that gap for people who knew that opportunity. They need
0:12:18 > 0:12:22support, they need real opportunities, they don't need to
0:12:22 > 0:12:26be sent to work for their dole payment. It is meagre enough as it
0:12:26 > 0:12:30is. These companies are still making millions or billions of
0:12:30 > 0:12:34pounds of profit, there is no reason that you couldn't give these
0:12:34 > 0:12:39people the experience at the same time as taking home a decent wage
0:12:39 > 0:12:43for a decent day's work. The motive is simply about profit, these
0:12:43 > 0:12:46companies want to increase their profit. They have no interest in
0:12:46 > 0:12:53the futures of these young people are giving them opportunities and
0:12:53 > 0:12:58the fact is, this is a niggardly about profit. The facts prove this
0:12:58 > 0:13:02is wrong, we got to get away from this, we need businesses to do well.
0:13:02 > 0:13:11It is not just about retail, there are technology companies in this
0:13:11 > 0:13:16game. If people want to get into this, it is a voluntary scheme will
0:13:16 > 0:13:19stop what about providing jobs at the end of this? That is not
0:13:19 > 0:13:23necessarily going to happen and also the threat hangs over your
0:13:23 > 0:13:29head if you want to drop out of one of these schemes, you benefits are
0:13:29 > 0:13:39cut. As for gaining experience in these companies, it is shelf
0:13:39 > 0:13:40
0:13:40 > 0:13:43The work-experience scheme is voluntary in the first place.
0:13:43 > 0:13:46People can turn out -- pull-out if it is not for them after the first
0:13:46 > 0:13:51few days. They have to make a commitment after the first week but
0:13:51 > 0:13:55so did the companies. It is 25 or 30 hours a week for just a few
0:13:55 > 0:13:59weeks, giving somebody something on their CV. But the point is that you
0:13:59 > 0:14:03do not need to put stacking shelves on a CV, you do not get work
0:14:03 > 0:14:08experience from that. I would disagree. It is interpersonal
0:14:08 > 0:14:11skills, the habit of being at work and getting that valuable
0:14:11 > 0:14:15experience. The results, 50% getting to work at the end of it,
0:14:15 > 0:14:20they are proving that is right. Would you tell companies not to
0:14:20 > 0:14:23touch the is sore would you say, get on with it? I would probably
0:14:23 > 0:14:27say something in between. Think carefully about why you were doing
0:14:27 > 0:14:32this and get it clear. Make sure it is not just about profit, but you
0:14:32 > 0:14:35have a purpose tied in to watch your organisation is about. We need
0:14:36 > 0:14:39more skills in the work force and there are areas that companies can
0:14:39 > 0:14:44get clear about. But they have not done that. If you want to provide
0:14:44 > 0:14:47cover -- young people with skills, the Government could on role a
0:14:47 > 0:14:52programme of public works. We have millions of people in council
0:14:52 > 0:14:56houses who cannot... They do not have the money for that. Why not
0:14:56 > 0:15:00nationalise the banks and take the money back, use that money to
0:15:00 > 0:15:05provide jobs? I will put the allegations of Chris Grayling to
0:15:05 > 0:15:11you, from this morning, that you're a front for the Socialist Party.
0:15:11 > 0:15:16am a member of the Socialist Party but this project is certainly not a
0:15:16 > 0:15:21front. We are supported by seven unions. Putt -- funded by them?
0:15:21 > 0:15:26are funded by trade unions that represent 2 million workers in this
0:15:26 > 0:15:30country. So he is probably right? It is not a front. It is perfectly
0:15:30 > 0:15:34democratic and above board. The reason is that socialists are
0:15:34 > 0:15:37taking up this issue, because it is a symptom of a capitalist system
0:15:37 > 0:15:40that is corrupt, rotten to the court and the reason no one can get
0:15:40 > 0:15:45jobs is because the bank has collapsed and the private sector
0:15:45 > 0:15:52has collapsed and the Government is making us pay for it. If you wore
0:15:52 > 0:15:55your Socialist Worker tank more loudly... We do, we do. People were
0:15:55 > 0:16:01carrying copies of our newspaper. There were eight people on a
0:16:01 > 0:16:04protest. That is just the start. It is not just a case of us wanting to
0:16:04 > 0:16:09replace traditional methods of trade unions and mass movements,
0:16:09 > 0:16:12we're doing this to start a mass movement, to build a movement that
0:16:12 > 0:16:15links up young people, working class people and trade unions. That
0:16:15 > 0:16:22is ultimately the only thing that will answer the questions. The only
0:16:22 > 0:16:27way we can provide jobs, act you have a lot of work to do here.
0:16:27 > 0:16:30terms of what the Government wants to do, with this scheme, do you
0:16:30 > 0:16:34think it can continue as it is, without more companies changing
0:16:34 > 0:16:37their approach? I think it should carry on. Many businesses will
0:16:37 > 0:16:40hopefully see that what they're doing is worth doing. We have to
0:16:40 > 0:16:44support those businesses across different sectors and thank them
0:16:44 > 0:16:48for doing this work to help young people get an opportunity and work
0:16:48 > 0:16:52experience to fill their CV and get more experience. That is what we
0:16:52 > 0:16:57want, because we have an inheritance of that youth
0:16:57 > 0:17:00unemployment. We have to think outside the box. Thank you very
0:17:00 > 0:17:04much. In Tunisia, more than 60 countries
0:17:04 > 0:17:07have been stepping up economic pressure on the regime in Syria.
0:17:07 > 0:17:10William Hague said he would recognise the Syrian National
0:17:10 > 0:17:16Council as a legitimate representative of the Syrian people
0:17:16 > 0:17:19but he ruled out arming the rebel Free Syrian Army. Tonight, Hillary
0:17:19 > 0:17:26Clinton slammed Bashar al-Assad and the countries that have refused to
0:17:26 > 0:17:30endorse the UN Security Council's condemnation. The regime refuses to
0:17:30 > 0:17:36allow this life-saving aid to reach people in need. It will have even
0:17:36 > 0:17:43more blood on its hands if it does this. So too will those nations
0:17:43 > 0:17:48that continue to protect and arm the regime. We call on those states
0:17:49 > 0:17:53that are supplying weapons to kill civilians to halt immediately.
0:17:53 > 0:17:57short while ago, I spoke to the Foreign Office minister, Alastair
0:17:57 > 0:18:01Burt, about the diplomatic effort going on there. This summit is all
0:18:01 > 0:18:09about trying to find diplomatic solutions to the crisis. What is
0:18:09 > 0:18:13the point of it without Russia? point of getting so many nations
0:18:13 > 0:18:18together is to demonstrate the isolation of the Syrian regime, and
0:18:18 > 0:18:22perhaps to demonstrate to Russia that they can refuse a resolution
0:18:22 > 0:18:25at the United Nations Security Council, but by seeing so many
0:18:25 > 0:18:29nations all our life together, telling the Syrian regime that they
0:18:29 > 0:18:35have to stop the killing, and they have to back the Arab League
0:18:35 > 0:18:38proposals which are on the table, much discussed today, the point is
0:18:38 > 0:18:42to perhaps remind Russia that they are on the wrong side of history.
0:18:42 > 0:18:46They could be drawn in. The weight of nations speaking today should
0:18:46 > 0:18:53not be treated lightly. I put it to you that without China and Russia
0:18:53 > 0:18:56present and willing to engage you can do nothing. I disagree. What
0:18:56 > 0:19:02was being asked of nations today was that those countries that are
0:19:02 > 0:19:08not involved in sanctions to date should become involved. The EU has
0:19:08 > 0:19:13taken 11 rounds of sanctions, as it freezes, and travel bans, targeted
0:19:13 > 0:19:22actions on individuals, and oil embargoes. We were proposing today
0:19:22 > 0:19:26that this squeeze, the stranglehold on the Syrian economy, or on Syrian
0:19:26 > 0:19:29diplomatic and economic means, if this is taken up more dramatically
0:19:29 > 0:19:33it will put serious pressure on Syria. Russia and China do not need
0:19:33 > 0:19:37to be part of that but other nations can do it and Russia and
0:19:37 > 0:19:40China will see how far behind they are. President Assad has been
0:19:40 > 0:19:44accused of crimes against humanity already. There is bloodshed going
0:19:44 > 0:19:49on, something close to civil war in several parts of the country and
0:19:49 > 0:19:55none of this is stopping him. then the pressure has got to
0:19:55 > 0:19:59increase. To what? We were trying to, by getting more nations
0:19:59 > 0:20:04involved and indicating where extra pressure can be put to none,
0:20:04 > 0:20:08whether it is diplomatic or financial or economic, all of these
0:20:08 > 0:20:11cumulatively will have a difference. A militarily? The United Kingdom is
0:20:11 > 0:20:17not involved in that. There is an arms embargo on that will not be
0:20:17 > 0:20:21Maybe help and support will be given to opposition in other ways.
0:20:21 > 0:20:25Is it not time you allow the opposition that you recognise as a
0:20:25 > 0:20:30legitimate representative of the country to have that embargo lifted
0:20:30 > 0:20:33and import their own arms to defend themselves? There are many
0:20:33 > 0:20:37different parts of the Syrian opposition. If you mean the
0:20:37 > 0:20:41National Council, they did not have that discussion when they spoke to
0:20:41 > 0:20:47the Secretary of State. Would you like to see that happen? The United
0:20:47 > 0:20:50Kingdom is part of an arms embargo, but the frustrations expressed by
0:20:50 > 0:20:55others were clear. It is not for the United Kingdom to dictate to
0:20:55 > 0:20:58other countries what they may or may not to. If they wish to support
0:20:58 > 0:21:03those who were trying to protect and defend themselves. That is the
0:21:03 > 0:21:07point. What the United Kingdom can do very clearly is say to the
0:21:07 > 0:21:11regime that is perpetrating this cycle of violence at him a stop.
0:21:11 > 0:21:14But we know that Russia is already arming one side. At the moment
0:21:14 > 0:21:20there is an imbalance because the other side cannot get the arms to
0:21:20 > 0:21:25defend themselves. Is it not time that that was addressed? With
0:21:25 > 0:21:28respect, that is easy to say but the overwhelming sense of the
0:21:28 > 0:21:33conference was to introduce more arms into this situation, which
0:21:33 > 0:21:37might make the situation worse. So many countries that we are speaking
0:21:37 > 0:21:41to said that the Arab League has a plan. Let us get behind that plan,
0:21:41 > 0:21:45let us put the pressure on Syria economically, diplomatically,
0:21:45 > 0:21:49politically, in order to get them to turn aside from killing and
0:21:49 > 0:21:53realise how isolated they are. The Arab League plan is the way to go
0:21:53 > 0:21:57forward. The country has expressed frustration with what was happening
0:21:57 > 0:22:02on the ground and the abhorrence of what was happening was the be clear.
0:22:02 > 0:22:06The UK can understand that very well. -- was very clear.
0:22:06 > 0:22:09It looks like virtual prison and sounds like it but you are not
0:22:09 > 0:22:13allowed to college virtual prison. How do you lock up criminals when
0:22:14 > 0:22:18you have no money to spend on incarceration? You keep them in the
0:22:18 > 0:22:21raw homes with severe restrictions on the movement. That is David
0:22:21 > 0:22:25Cameron's latest plan as his party encourages him to get tough on
0:22:25 > 0:22:33crime. But how will the good clock -- good cop, bad cop duo, Ken
0:22:33 > 0:22:36Clarke and Theresa May, make his work in practice? -- make this work.
0:22:37 > 0:22:40A placing criminal-justice with 21st century community justice was
0:22:40 > 0:22:45a mission that, in its early months, united the coalition and delighted
0:22:45 > 0:22:49reluctant Liberals. Ken Clarke stood four-square with Nick Clegg
0:22:49 > 0:22:53in pledging to bring down sentencing rates. Hence this joke
0:22:53 > 0:22:59at last year's Spectator awards. we make a good double act in that
0:22:59 > 0:23:05eye lock them up and you let them out. Very dry but not side-
0:23:05 > 0:23:09splittingly funny for those in Number Ten. They were fearing the
0:23:09 > 0:23:14public view community sentences as a walk in the park. Over the last
0:23:14 > 0:23:17few months, the Minister of State for policy has worked with Ken
0:23:17 > 0:23:22Clarke and Home Secretary Theresa May to put more punch into the
0:23:22 > 0:23:26punishment. This morning, reports emerged of what sources said would
0:23:26 > 0:23:31be a draconian new regime with offenders sentenced to a virtual
0:23:31 > 0:23:34prisoner. Curfew for 16 hours a day, threatened with an immediate court
0:23:34 > 0:23:39hearing if they left the house arrest, and judges allowed to
0:23:39 > 0:23:42confiscate passports and driving licences. Cameron promoted this
0:23:42 > 0:23:47strategy today when asked at a private meeting whether he feared
0:23:47 > 0:23:50the party was losing its reputation for being hard on crime. He told
0:23:50 > 0:23:54them that the toughening of community sentences would reassure
0:23:54 > 0:23:57them. The pressure on the number of prison places is so high that at
0:23:57 > 0:24:02the last election the Tories campaigned on a policy of prison
0:24:02 > 0:24:06ships to deal with it. Recently, Ken Clarke wrote to Cabinet
0:24:06 > 0:24:11colleagues urging them to proceed with care when going for a crime --
0:24:11 > 0:24:15a crime of drug driving to match thatch of drink-driving. The
0:24:15 > 0:24:19dilemma hanging over them is this, how do you reduce the number in
0:24:19 > 0:24:24prison at the same time has been tough on crime? That we are seeing
0:24:24 > 0:24:28a new push reflect the findings of a selection of opinion polls. Tory
0:24:28 > 0:24:31donor Lord Ashcroft found in March of last year that four fifths of
0:24:31 > 0:24:37the public and victims of crime saw community sentences as, in their
0:24:37 > 0:24:40words, soft punishment. By last time we polled public opinion on
0:24:40 > 0:24:45this, three-quarters of people thought that this Government was no
0:24:45 > 0:24:49tougher on crime than the previous government. -- the last time. There
0:24:49 > 0:24:53is a desire for the Government to be tougher on crime, particularly
0:24:53 > 0:24:57since the riots last summer. People think that one of the reasons why
0:24:57 > 0:25:02reoffending rates are so high is that the prison regime is too
0:25:02 > 0:25:06lenient and the alternatives to prison, community sentences, are to
0:25:06 > 0:25:11relax and are ineffective. Community sentences are not working
0:25:11 > 0:25:14and the public knows it. One third are not completed and there are
0:25:14 > 0:25:18250,000 recorded crimes committed by people on sentences in the
0:25:18 > 0:25:22community. The coalition is right to be looking at reforming them but
0:25:22 > 0:25:26the questionnaires, what is the best way? The evidence we have seen
0:25:26 > 0:25:29shows that punishment has to be a keen -- a key element of the
0:25:29 > 0:25:32sentence. It is important for public confidence but it needs to
0:25:32 > 0:25:37be robust. The pay back to the community needs to be visible.
0:25:37 > 0:25:41There are some that do not think the policy needed tinkering with.
0:25:41 > 0:25:45You have a successful scheme running with proven results. 10%
0:25:45 > 0:25:49better than a short prison sentence. What you need to do is capitalise
0:25:49 > 0:25:53upon it and build on what is working well. Intensive supervision,
0:25:53 > 0:25:58community payback, and attention to addictions, housing and mental
0:25:58 > 0:26:02health needs, and learning difficulties. That would really
0:26:02 > 0:26:06make it work better than it is now. The Lib Dem coalition partners
0:26:06 > 0:26:09agree that community sentences need some tightening up. Although they
0:26:09 > 0:26:14have their demands. What I want to see in the new community sentences
0:26:14 > 0:26:18that are being proposed is that yes, they are properly monitored and
0:26:18 > 0:26:22properly enforced unsupervised, but also that everything that needs to
0:26:23 > 0:26:27be built around a package, in terms of insuring that that person does
0:26:28 > 0:26:30not reoffend, if they have a drink problem, for instance, that that is
0:26:31 > 0:26:34addressed. We need to have the hard work that is involved in the
0:26:34 > 0:26:38community sentence but also the support that is needed to make sure
0:26:38 > 0:26:42that person does not reoffend. sources tell me that actually the
0:26:42 > 0:26:45eventual publication will reveal something slightly softer, but a
0:26:45 > 0:26:50leak of a tough document now has helped the Tories to show what they
0:26:50 > 0:26:53would have liked to have done, undiluted by coalition partners.
0:26:53 > 0:26:56Passports will probably not be confiscated and if a subject needs
0:26:57 > 0:27:00their driving licence, they should have it for their sentence. It is
0:27:00 > 0:27:03likely that instead of one community punishment fit in all,
0:27:03 > 0:27:07there will be a gradation of punishments depending on the
0:27:07 > 0:27:13severity of crime. Whatever the reincarnation, some detect grand
0:27:13 > 0:27:16designs. We have to fix community sentences to make a more robust and
0:27:16 > 0:27:21tackle the breaches. We need to stop this exhalation -- escalation
0:27:21 > 0:27:25of offending which leads to short- term prison sentences. You cannot
0:27:25 > 0:27:31start from a position that they are an alternative to prison. They
0:27:31 > 0:27:34proceed prison. That is the debate. Those at Number Ten -- there are
0:27:34 > 0:27:39those at No. 10 who were happy with the policy because it makes current
0:27:39 > 0:27:44punishment offer but Oliver Letwin has said to have a bigger ambitions
0:27:44 > 0:27:47for the policy in the future. If the public can be made to trust
0:27:47 > 0:27:52community sentencing as much as custodial sentencing then one day,
0:27:52 > 0:27:55he thinks, it can replace prison. This worries the Tory right wing.
0:27:55 > 0:27:59An idea supposed to toughen things up could then have softened them.
0:27:59 > 0:28:02The new policy may not be as strong as reports suggest but it will
0:28:03 > 0:28:09further blur the boundary between locking them up and letting them
0:28:09 > 0:28:12out. Lock them out while letting them stay out.
0:28:12 > 0:28:17A quick word from our thumb about the review tonight.
0:28:17 > 0:28:23Tonight, we are embracing her glamourous side with a look at the
0:28:23 > 0:28:31line-up for this year's Oscars. -- MA for. Joining me, Brian Cox, Mike
0:28:31 > 0:28:34Miller and film critic Natalie Haynes.
0:28:34 > 0:28:38Haynes. The front pages: The Financial
0:28:38 > 0:28:43Times has George Osborne ruling out cuts to fuel duty, as its main
0:28:43 > 0:28:47story. He says he is set for confrontation with motorists. The
0:28:47 > 0:28:51Daily Telegraph as a warning from Lynne Featherstone, challenging the
0:28:51 > 0:28:56role of the Church in a debate over gay weddings, saying that the
0:28:56 > 0:29:02Church does not own marriage. A preview of the Oscars, with The
0:29:02 > 0:29:07Artist. And the Times, devastation, despair and courage on Syria's
0:29:07 > 0:29:13bloody front line, telling the story of the week undercover -- a
0:29:13 > 0:29:20journalist's week undercover. And finally, I think he saw that
0:29:20 > 0:29:23one earlier, the woman who has had to quit from A4e after allegations