:00:11. > :00:17.An Englishman's home isn't just his castle, if Vince Cable gets his way
:00:18. > :00:21.it will be a Government cash cow. A fortnight ahead of the budget, the
:00:21. > :00:25.idea is floated that everyone with a big house should be taxed on its
:00:25. > :00:28.value. It is the most expensive thing most of us would ever buy,
:00:28. > :00:33.the change would be from being taxed on what you earn, to being
:00:33. > :00:36.taxed on what you own. As an idea, is it either desirable, or even
:00:36. > :00:42.workable. Our political editor has learned
:00:42. > :00:45.what's happened to another highly contentious Government plan. I have
:00:45. > :00:52.learned the Government's controversial planning laws will go
:00:52. > :00:56.ahead, despite hints of a re-think. The alleged leader of two of the
:00:56. > :01:01.most famous and prolific hacking groups in the world, Anonymous and
:01:01. > :01:05.LulzSec, is unmasked as an FBI informant. The woman privvy to the
:01:05. > :01:10.secrets of the happy hacking movement, talks for the first time.
:01:10. > :01:15.What happens to you when you end up on the wrong side of the Arab
:01:15. > :01:21.Spring? We go to the last place that fell to the Libyan uprising.
:01:21. > :01:24.This was Gaddafi's grandiose vision of a capital for Africa, now it has
:01:24. > :01:34.been ripped apart, I will be talking to the people of the
:01:34. > :01:37.
:01:37. > :01:41.We are all in this together, but some of us ought to be more in it
:01:41. > :01:46.than others, that is the implication of remarks today from
:01:46. > :01:48.the Business Secretary, Vince Cable? One of those, "hey I'm just
:01:48. > :01:53.thinking allowed" which drive his Conservative colleagues up the wall,
:01:53. > :01:58.he mused that maybe there was case for getting rid of the 50p rate of
:01:58. > :02:06.income tax, paid by anyone earning over �150,000 a year, and in return,
:02:06. > :02:13.maybe people's wealth should be taxed, essentially a tax on their
:02:13. > :02:19.houses. The respectable pile, or mansion,
:02:19. > :02:23.as Vince Cable would call it, of the composer Hubert Parry, nestled
:02:23. > :02:30.in the expensive Kensington square, right next door another honoured
:02:31. > :02:36.home, John Stuart Mill, architect of the liberal thought. He's the
:02:36. > :02:43.architect of a wealth tax, which his descendant and lookalike has
:02:43. > :02:50.morphed into a mansion tax. He says the dream must be realised, he said
:02:50. > :02:53.a mansion tax must be exchanged for dropping the 50p tax. If the 50p
:02:53. > :02:57.tax rate were to go, it should be replaced by taxation of wealth,
:02:57. > :03:01.because the wealthy people in the country have to pay their share,
:03:01. > :03:06.and the mansion tax is an economically sensible way of doing
:03:06. > :03:09.it. Lord Newby is a Lib Dem peer, champion of the mansion tax, and
:03:09. > :03:12.friend to the Business Secretary. How important is this to the Lib
:03:12. > :03:16.Dems and what they get from Government? It is one of the things
:03:16. > :03:19.we fought the last election on, we are keen it should be implemented.
:03:20. > :03:22.We think it is particularly important to do it if the
:03:22. > :03:26.Government contemplating on reducing the 50p tax rate. We think
:03:26. > :03:29.in the long run you should do that, but now isn't the time to do it,
:03:29. > :03:32.particularly unless you do something like a mansion tax, which
:03:32. > :03:38.means that people at the really top end of the income and wealth scale
:03:38. > :03:42.are paying their fair share. John Stuart Mills house is worth
:03:42. > :03:47.under �2 million, next door his neighbour's is worth just over,
:03:47. > :03:50.that is the stark contrast that really worries the Tories. They
:03:50. > :03:55.think up and down the country you will have neighbour pitched against
:03:55. > :03:59.neighbour over the value of their homes. This is a recipe for a big
:03:59. > :04:04.judicial review, according to one critic, it will bring not much
:04:04. > :04:08.money and a lot of grief. For many Tory MPs they won't accept this
:04:08. > :04:11.policy. I'm opposed to a mansion tax, although it will affect few
:04:11. > :04:15.people in my constituency, it is a tax against aspiration. I have
:04:15. > :04:20.often thought of the people who are sometimes in these rather expensive
:04:20. > :04:25.houses now, a lot are asset rich and cash poor, and may have
:04:25. > :04:35.acquired the house some time ago. The last thing I want to see is a
:04:35. > :04:41.
:04:41. > :04:44.widow being turfed out of her house The UK brings in the most from
:04:44. > :04:50.property than any OECD countries. The think-tank offered research
:04:50. > :04:59.showing the top 1.6% of property sales yielded 26% of all stamp duty,
:04:59. > :05:02.and the top 0.7% of homes, contributes 36% of inheritance tax.
:05:02. > :05:07.Whatever the numbers, the Lib Dems are at home on this agenda, and for
:05:07. > :05:10.the other parties, the central John Stuart Mills website, that wealth,
:05:10. > :05:15.not income, should be taxed, is broadly compelling. I would prefer
:05:15. > :05:21.to look at something that they have in some parts of Australia, which
:05:21. > :05:25.is a land tax that exempts people's main homes, and exempts farmland,
:05:25. > :05:29.but it basically bears down on people who have second homes, and
:05:29. > :05:32.also on property companies who are sitting on large land banks. I
:05:32. > :05:37.think that is probably a better form of wealth tax. It is fairer,
:05:37. > :05:42.it doesn't run into this little old lady in a big house problem. We
:05:42. > :05:46.should then use the proceeds to cut taxes on people on average earnings.
:05:46. > :05:50.REPORTER: Are you trying to write George Osborne's budget for him?
:05:50. > :05:53.Not at all. Today a letter resurfaced, written by the Business
:05:53. > :05:57.Secretary at the beginning of February, in which he accuses the
:05:57. > :06:01.Prime Minister, and indeed his own boss, Nick Clegg, of presiding over
:06:01. > :06:08.a Government with no vision beyond sorting out the fiscal mess.
:06:08. > :06:12.Until his departure recently, Chris Huhne was the dissident in the
:06:12. > :06:18.cabinet, thorn in their side, now Vince Cable seems to have taken up
:06:18. > :06:23.the mantle. He's saying if it isn't radical, it isn't the Lib Dems'
:06:23. > :06:27.fault. But some will say those who criticise the strategy criticises
:06:27. > :06:30.his own brief. It is highly unlikely this budget will include a
:06:30. > :06:35.mansion tax, whatever the Lib Dem negotiating position, but there is
:06:35. > :06:39.probably going to be action to clampdown on its extravagantly
:06:39. > :06:43.lavish cousin, the people who set up companies to pay much reduced
:06:43. > :06:46.council tax on their companies. If people change the loopholes such as
:06:46. > :06:51.people putting flats into companies, they couldn't do it any more, isn't
:06:51. > :06:56.that a mansion tax? That is getting rid of a loophole, people shunting
:06:56. > :07:00.doing that any way, a mansion tax is a new source of revenue, it will
:07:01. > :07:06.earning more than closing the loophole t applies to all houses
:07:06. > :07:13.every year above �2 million. It would be an Andrews not an or.
:07:13. > :07:18.three days time the Lib Dems convene for their conference, a
:07:18. > :07:21.rowdy and not quite glam affair. Vince Cable pushing for the wealth
:07:21. > :07:26.tax could should a spring in the shod step.
:07:26. > :07:29.To give their thoughts on a mansion tax, the Conservative MP, Jacob
:07:29. > :07:34.Rees-Mogg, the property expert, Kirstie Allsopp, and Tim
:07:34. > :07:40.Montgomerie, editor of the story grass root website -- grass roots
:07:40. > :07:46.website. If someone is lucky enough to own a house worth �2 mill kwhron,
:07:46. > :07:50.they can afford -- �2 million, they can afford �5,000 a year? They
:07:50. > :07:54.already pay council tax, the problem with these houses is people
:07:54. > :07:58.don't have the cashflow. Get a smaller house? So you want to kick
:07:58. > :08:03.the widow out of her house. I find in the south-east of England,
:08:03. > :08:06.people living in their homes for 40 years, their home is valuable but
:08:06. > :08:12.they are living on small, fixed income. Is that how you want
:08:12. > :08:14.society to run. Tim Montgomerie, is that where you want society to run?
:08:14. > :08:19.We are facing probably one of the worst economic circumstances this
:08:19. > :08:22.country has faced for a long time. People on low and average incomes
:08:22. > :08:26.without there are struggling to make ends meet. They are running
:08:26. > :08:30.out of income at the start of the month, not the end. People for the
:08:30. > :08:33.first time are looking to be less well-off than the generation that
:08:33. > :08:37.preceded them. What I want from a Conservative-led Government, is to
:08:37. > :08:41.do everything it possibly can to help those families. The stories
:08:41. > :08:46.that Jacob has shared with us are tough, some people will find these
:08:46. > :08:50.sorts of taxes difficult, but I want, when George Osborne gets up
:08:50. > :08:54.to deliver the budget, I don't want him to just do things that are
:08:54. > :08:58.marginal for families, on council tax or petrol duty, I want him to
:08:58. > :09:02.have cut spending more deeply, and all the wiggle room in the budget,
:09:02. > :09:06.and introducing wealth taxes, to make a sizeable difference for the
:09:06. > :09:13.families we really need to help. Kirstie Allsopp, you spend your
:09:13. > :09:16.entire life in the property world, where are you Aberdeen? I'm in
:09:17. > :09:23.Aberdeen. And elsewhere. What effect would it have this sort of
:09:23. > :09:29.tax, do you think? I don't think it would have a major effect. At the
:09:29. > :09:33.point that they set it, let's say it is �2 million, there will be
:09:33. > :09:42.some fannying around in that area, it is not just that, they have to
:09:42. > :09:48.decide whether they want to tax assets, or whether they want to tax
:09:48. > :09:52.income. Jacob is completely right it is patronising to talk about
:09:52. > :09:58.this old widow, my parents and my parents-in-law would be hugely
:09:58. > :10:02.affected by an annual mansion tax. If we want a sales tax let's be
:10:02. > :10:07.honest, saying we pay tax when we go into a purchase, which we do,
:10:07. > :10:10.and when we come out of a purchase. In an honest sales tax, which they
:10:10. > :10:14.do in countries all over the world, and which it has been something
:10:14. > :10:18.that is slightly inevitable for a long time. Are you also going to
:10:18. > :10:22.defend all these foreign people who come to Britain and buy property
:10:22. > :10:29.without paying stamp duty? No. Why on earth would I defend them. We
:10:29. > :10:33.have stamp duty in this country, we should all pay it, and when we sell
:10:33. > :10:37.a property. Tim raes right, there are people suffering -- Tim's right,
:10:37. > :10:41.there are people suffering, they are not people owning �2 million
:10:41. > :10:45.properties. There are a great many people, particularly in the south-
:10:45. > :10:50.east, who own very valuable homes, like my in-laws, who have lived in
:10:50. > :10:55.the same house for 50 years, and would simply be incapable of paying
:10:55. > :11:00.an annual tax on the value of an asset they have had for a very long
:11:00. > :11:04.time. What about Kirstie Allsopp's in-laws? They may not have the
:11:04. > :11:09.income themselves, but they are sat on an asset. It is a home. It is a
:11:09. > :11:12.home, but it is also an asset for which other people will benefit
:11:12. > :11:16.perhaps through inheritance in later years. We have an inheritance
:11:16. > :11:19.tax. There are plenty of financial companies that will help your
:11:19. > :11:23.relatives or the Jacob's widow realise their asset now, they will
:11:23. > :11:27.still be able to live in that house, but extract some of the income now,
:11:27. > :11:32.so they can make a contribution. You can't tax people's homes.
:11:32. > :11:35.Through the exchequer, to help the mass of people suffering on a
:11:35. > :11:40.significant scale. People pay the Exchequer when they buy, and they
:11:40. > :11:47.pay when they die, but you cannot expect people who don't have an
:11:47. > :11:52.income to make an annual payment, what about people paying an 780%
:11:52. > :11:58.mortgage. You can have -- 80% mortgage. You can have someone in a
:11:58. > :12:01.�2 million house which is paid off and one working to pay it off.
:12:01. > :12:06.want the Conservative-led Government to be the party on the
:12:06. > :12:10.side of people who can't fill up their petrol tank at the moment,
:12:10. > :12:13.the people struggling to pay their electricity bills. A party that
:12:13. > :12:18.worries too much about people with �2 million homes, is not a party
:12:19. > :12:24.that will win a majority in this country. The high priest of
:12:24. > :12:30.Conservatism has suddenly gone socialist on us, which is worrying.
:12:30. > :12:33.Tim is in that in his position on the website. He's being
:12:33. > :12:37.compassionate, worrying about people with more urgent needs than
:12:37. > :12:41.those with �2 million house? He's saying penal taxes will help the
:12:41. > :12:46.less well off, they won't. It will mean people will leave the country,
:12:46. > :12:50.people will stop working, people will move house to smaller houses.
:12:50. > :12:55.If you have such a penal tax system in this country, bearing in mind
:12:55. > :13:00.the top 1% of tax-payers, already pay 27% of the total income tax. We
:13:00. > :13:04.had the figures on the CPS on how much comes from property taxes,
:13:04. > :13:12.death duties on the most expensive house, the idea more will be
:13:12. > :13:17.squeezed out of the top earners, without risking the tax base is
:13:17. > :13:21.simply mistaken. One of the reasons why apart from the tax aspect but
:13:21. > :13:26.as an economist I support taxes more wealth income. You can't say
:13:26. > :13:30.we are losing people taxing at 50% for high earners, people are going
:13:30. > :13:34.overseas because it is easier to move their income to foreign banks.
:13:34. > :13:38.Property, many people from London, overseas, evading stamp duty,
:13:38. > :13:42.Russian, from the Middle East, they are not making a contribution, and
:13:42. > :13:48.what we need is a crackdown on people like that, so that we can
:13:48. > :13:53.afford to cut the 50p tax rate. Everyone agrees all these people
:13:53. > :13:57.who come here and avoid tax should pay it, but it is all part of the?
:13:57. > :14:01.It is all part of the same package of being a Government that can
:14:01. > :14:05.afford tax cuts. What happens to society when you start taxing
:14:05. > :14:08.waeplt instead of earnings? wealth instead of earnings? If you
:14:08. > :14:12.tax earnings too much people move abroad, they can take the jobs
:14:12. > :14:19.abroad. If you tax property, that is much hard Tory evade, you
:14:19. > :14:23.actually get a system -- harder to evade, you are actually get a
:14:23. > :14:27.system where we are taxing wealth creation rather than wealth.
:14:27. > :14:32.think wealth taxes are remarkably easy to evade, in Italy they have a
:14:32. > :14:37.lot, which are renowned for tax avoidance and evasion. In Italy
:14:37. > :14:40.they avoid all taxes. Kirsty you have been trying to get in up in
:14:40. > :14:45.Aberdeen? I'm really saying the same thing over and over again.
:14:45. > :14:49.Stop it then? Have a transaction tax, but it is unworkable, as you
:14:49. > :14:55.said at the beginning of the show, Jeremy, we can't do it, we all know
:14:55. > :15:00.we can't do it. It will cause the most appalling problems, there will
:15:00. > :15:05.be numerous lawsuits, administering issues. Vince Cable has known for
:15:05. > :15:09.cage that is the mansion tax in its original form is unworkable. Let be
:15:09. > :15:12.a be honest and say we need more money. You know perfectly well
:15:12. > :15:16.Vince Cable is playing games for the benefit of his party, which is
:15:16. > :15:20.shortly to gather together, and they will say Saint Vince is
:15:20. > :15:23.keeping the flame alive. David Cameron will never go for this?
:15:23. > :15:27.fear not, I make the argument that a Conservative Party that is
:15:27. > :15:31.interested in the striving classes should, and Vince Cable may be
:15:31. > :15:34.playing politics with this. It is completely workable. I don't favour
:15:34. > :15:38.the precise mansion tax mechanism that Vince Cable has proposed. I
:15:38. > :15:42.think you would have a few higher bands on council tax, it is
:15:42. > :15:48.ridiculous at the moment someone in a �2 million house pays the same as
:15:48. > :15:51.someone on a �300,000 tax. Everybody agrees with that. There
:15:51. > :15:54.are perfectly workable ways of introducing fairer property taxes.
:15:54. > :16:00.Thank you very much. While we are on the subject of the
:16:00. > :16:05.budget, and what may or may not be in it, we have had quite a busy day.
:16:05. > :16:10.We have heard something about the plans to reform the planning laws
:16:10. > :16:13.in England. You may recall a great corn ternation among
:16:13. > :16:16.conservationists when it became known that planners were told to be
:16:16. > :16:21.more biased in favour of the development. The Government said it
:16:21. > :16:26.would think again. What have you found out? In terms of the headline,
:16:26. > :16:29.which is this horrible phrase that's rather jargon heavy, "a
:16:29. > :16:32.presumption in favour of sustainable development", that is
:16:32. > :16:35.staying, this is still a growth Government, it is something the
:16:35. > :16:38.Chancellor wants to push hard on and pushing for the budget, if he
:16:38. > :16:42.doesn't get his way we should be asking why not. To go backwards,
:16:42. > :16:46.this is a consultation launch last July, the idea was to make the
:16:46. > :16:50.system less complex, so to get, as soon as people got planning
:16:50. > :16:54.permission, they should be just able to go and build. The key thing
:16:54. > :16:57.is we have discussed, this phrase "a presumption in favour of
:16:57. > :17:00.sustainable development". Among others, it was the National Trust
:17:00. > :17:05.that said if it came to past it would be the death knell for the
:17:05. > :17:10.planning system as they know it. They talked about the end of the
:17:10. > :17:14.green belt, and our green and pleasant land to go back to
:17:14. > :17:18.Jerusalem would be concreted over. What is interesting me, is that the
:17:18. > :17:22.Treasury are very bullish about this, they want this in the budget,
:17:22. > :17:26.they don't want it after the budget, they want it part of the budget.
:17:26. > :17:29.This is a signal to builders, construction companies, which,
:17:29. > :17:33.let's remember, are people who if you can get to spend money, it
:17:33. > :17:37.trickles down into the economy very quickly. Construction is a big
:17:37. > :17:41.multiplier, they want them to be given a very big signal that
:17:41. > :17:45.planning is less difficult in this country. It was the subject of
:17:45. > :17:50.cabinet last week, they wanted to know why the planning document had
:17:50. > :17:55.been so long in the offing. I do believe there will be safeguards.
:17:55. > :17:59.Remember this is over over 1,000- pages. They thought it would be
:17:59. > :18:02.clever to shrink down to 54 pages, they realised over the fullness of
:18:02. > :18:05.time that was a problem. They had to make things more simple, and
:18:05. > :18:09.left out the safeguards on environmental issues. I think they
:18:09. > :18:15.will spell out that the green belt won't be touched. There will be
:18:15. > :18:23.better definition of an area of outnatural beauty, and the like.
:18:23. > :18:27.They are bullish about the outcome, but what campaigners are looking
:18:28. > :18:31.for remains to be seen, in terms of these groups it is a fight they
:18:31. > :18:34.will have, they want to do something about growth. Joining us
:18:35. > :18:38.from Westminster is the Conservative MP, Zac Goldsmith, who
:18:38. > :18:43.has advised David Cameron on environmental issues, and is a
:18:43. > :18:46.member of the Environmental Audit Committee. What do you make of this
:18:46. > :18:53.decision, apparently to stick to the original proposal? I have heard
:18:53. > :18:59.that from your programme, only. Some I'm assuming, I'm hoping it is
:18:59. > :19:04.mu mours. I'm hoping -- Rumours. I'm hoping it is true or we should
:19:04. > :19:10.sack our researcher? I will leave that to the Newsnight team. I think
:19:10. > :19:13.the planning system needs reform, I believe that, and so does the
:19:13. > :19:16.National Trust. It is expensive for companies and exhausting to
:19:16. > :19:19.communities fighting off developers, nobody seems to win. When
:19:19. > :19:23.Government ministers, we have had one or two, talk about the planning
:19:23. > :19:26.system as a tool that should be used to promote economic growth, I
:19:26. > :19:29.think they ares missing something very important. The problem with
:19:29. > :19:33.the planning system is not that it is blocking development, it is not
:19:33. > :19:38.blocking development, there are 250,000 plots available to be built
:19:38. > :19:42.in the south-east of England alone. There are 31,000 acres of
:19:42. > :19:46.brownfield land waiting to be developed. In all, roughly 90% of
:19:46. > :19:49.applications go through. So the problem is not that it is blocking
:19:49. > :19:53.development, the problem is it is a very bureaucratic and lengthy
:19:53. > :19:56.system. A decision that should take two or three weeks, ends up taking
:19:56. > :19:59.months or years. That is the problem and they should be
:19:59. > :20:03.addressing that. If you talk about planning being used as a tool to
:20:03. > :20:05.promote economic growth, that sounds like a blank cheque for
:20:06. > :20:09.developers, that is a real problem. If you are a person without a job,
:20:09. > :20:14.it is pretty hard to take from a multi-millionaire, that sort of
:20:14. > :20:18.advice, isn't it? What advice? advice you have just given that it
:20:18. > :20:21.is nothing to do with development, others have decides it is to do
:20:21. > :20:24.with development and economic growth? I'm not giving advice, I'm
:20:24. > :20:26.saying the problem with the planning system is not that it is
:20:26. > :20:30.blocking development, I would like to see lots of development
:20:30. > :20:33.happening around the country, we have a real housing crisis, but
:20:33. > :20:37.ripping up the planning system as it currently is, will not lead to
:20:37. > :20:40.more development, it might mean a few developers will make more money,
:20:40. > :20:43.it won't lead to a net increase in economic growth or development.
:20:43. > :20:47.There are other factors at play, the fact that people can't get
:20:47. > :20:52.mortgages and the finance doesn't exist. That is what's impeding
:20:52. > :20:56.development, no the planning is is tem. It is not even -- system, it
:20:56. > :20:58.is not even a matter of data, it is a matter of fact. I'm not giving
:20:58. > :21:02.advice, I'm simply saying the planning system shouldn't be used
:21:02. > :21:06.as a tool to create development, that misses the point, I think.
:21:06. > :21:14.Those safeguards of local plans in green belts, they will still be
:21:14. > :21:19.there? Look, I don't know the final draft, I haven't seen it, I presume
:21:19. > :21:24.protection for National Parks and green belts will exist. They are
:21:24. > :21:28.not the only things that matter to communities. People want to protect
:21:28. > :21:32.things not essentially of natural value, but green spaces, their
:21:32. > :21:35.community. Areas of the countryside may not be hugely rich in
:21:35. > :21:41.biodiversity, but are important to communities that live in and around
:21:41. > :21:47.them. The planning system needs to protect what matters to people, not
:21:47. > :21:50.just a National Parks and biodiversity hot spots. It has to
:21:50. > :21:55.go beyond that. What was lacking from the original draft, that upset
:21:55. > :21:59.a lot of people, was a very clear bias in developing brownfield land
:21:59. > :22:03.first, I hope that is back in the script. Also a clear definition of
:22:03. > :22:05.what we mean by sustainable development F we have a presumption
:22:05. > :22:09.in favour of sustainability development, we need to know what
:22:09. > :22:13.that looks like. What does the Government believe sustainability
:22:13. > :22:16.amounts to. These are the things I think need to be addressed. I still
:22:16. > :22:22.hope the second draft will answer these questions. The Government
:22:22. > :22:26.will have a real headache if they haven't. Millions of people around
:22:26. > :22:30.the country are worried, they are right. Whatever reforms are brought
:22:30. > :22:38.in will have a lasting legacy s it will be on this generation, the
:22:38. > :22:43.next and the one after that. It is very important we get it right.
:22:43. > :22:47.signer space they say, no-one can hear you scream, but the FBI listen
:22:47. > :22:51.carefully. It emerged today one of the most wanted men in computer
:22:51. > :23:00.hacking has been co-operating with American investigators and dobing
:23:00. > :23:06.in fellow harkers. This Moriarty burrowed into banking and business
:23:06. > :23:11.organisations and completely compromised their security. It may
:23:11. > :23:15.all have started as a bit of a laugh, or at least that's what
:23:16. > :23:21.hacking group LulzSec wanted us to think, their slogan, "laughing at
:23:21. > :23:25.your security since 2011", but their attacks became increasingly
:23:25. > :23:30.high-profile, the US Senate, Sony and banks among their victims. A
:23:30. > :23:34.spin-off from the Hacking Collective, Anonymous, that is how
:23:35. > :23:38.they all would have liked to remain, but today the FBI released the
:23:38. > :23:42.names and handles from six suspects from both groups, charged with
:23:42. > :23:52.crimes the FBI say affected more than a million victims. What do we
:23:52. > :24:03.
:24:03. > :24:13.know about those charged today. He has been arrested in Washington
:24:13. > :24:16.
:24:16. > :24:22.and charged with crimes against a The FBI said today pleaded guilty
:24:22. > :24:26.to a dozen charges last summer. A report by Fox News, today claimed
:24:27. > :24:30.that 28-year-old self-taught hacker, Monster mons, turned against his
:24:30. > :24:33.hacking friends -- Monster mons, turned against his hacking friends,
:24:33. > :24:40.work - Hector Xavier Monsegur, turned against his friends, working
:24:40. > :24:45.with the FBI since last July. It goes towards old fashioned policing,
:24:45. > :24:49.and turned the tables on the hacking community that had seemed
:24:49. > :24:53.one step ahead of the enforcement services. Last month n one of the
:24:53. > :24:56.most embarrassing attacks, Anonymous released a recording of
:24:56. > :25:01.what was supposed to be a secure conference call, between signer
:25:01. > :25:10.crime detectives in the UK and the US. You need to reliesen to the
:25:10. > :25:14.conversation in the context of what -- reliesen to the -- re-listen to
:25:14. > :25:18.it, people will think they sound complacement, but they are not,
:25:18. > :25:22.there is a lot of money being spent to capture these people.
:25:22. > :25:32.Last summer Newsnight conducted an interview in an on-line chatroom
:25:32. > :25:34.
:25:34. > :25:38.with a member of LulzSec, who told Of course, all those charged are
:25:38. > :25:44.innocent until proven guilty, and it seems unlikely this will be the
:25:44. > :25:52.end of a movement that frequently boasts that you cannot kill an idea.
:25:52. > :25:56.With us now is the journalist, Parmy Olson, of Forbes, who has
:25:56. > :26:01.enjoined privileged access to the members of LulzSec and Anonymous
:26:01. > :26:07.for over a year and published a history of the movement shortly to
:26:07. > :26:11.be published. How surprised were you to discover this guy was an FBI
:26:11. > :26:16.informant? I'm not surprised, there was a lot of suspicion in the
:26:16. > :26:21.hacker community over the last few months, because one by one every
:26:21. > :26:25.member of LulzSec of getting arrested, the founding members, yet
:26:25. > :26:33.Sabu, the de facto leader, widely known to be living in New York,
:26:33. > :26:37.widely known to be of Porto Rican descent, had not been arrested, he
:26:37. > :26:40.was prolific on Twitter, very verbal and public, yet here he was
:26:40. > :26:49.apparently still at large. How big a noise was he in this hacking
:26:49. > :26:54.world. He is definitely a charasmatic character and well
:26:54. > :27:00.known. He had 25,000 Twitter followers until recently, that has
:27:00. > :27:04.now shot up. On the Internet chat networks were the where the
:27:04. > :27:09.Anonymous supporters discussed things. If he went on-line he would
:27:09. > :27:12.have everyone hanging on to his every word. An aggressive and
:27:12. > :27:18.intense personality and influential. Most of the other hackers were much
:27:18. > :27:22.younger? Generally speaking he is of an older age group, late 20s,
:27:22. > :27:26.most tend to be in late teens, early 20s, even early teens.
:27:26. > :27:31.could get them to do things? could say that. He's very
:27:31. > :27:35.influential, charming to speak to. And very opinionated. When he talks
:27:35. > :27:39.about his views, he's very good at getting those across and justifying
:27:39. > :27:43.what he did. To a lot of people, this seems,
:27:43. > :27:50.frankly, slightly incomprehensible, something that maybe starts off as
:27:50. > :27:52.a game, can I beat this system here. It then becomes something else?
:27:52. > :27:56.definitely ballooned into something bigger that spiralled out of
:27:56. > :28:02.control for the people who were involved, particularly the people
:28:02. > :28:06.who were arrested, like hector. I think part of that comes are from
:28:06. > :28:11.the camaraderiery they felt together, the sense of euphoria
:28:11. > :28:14.with each hack and the sense of victory. And of course the media
:28:14. > :28:21.attention they got, LulzSec, the hacking group he was leading,
:28:21. > :28:24.within a few weeks we were getting up to 300,000 Twitter followers,
:28:24. > :28:34.the New York Times, the Wall Street Journal was quoting their tweets.
:28:34. > :28:37.
:28:37. > :28:42.That was also part of what fuelled what they were doing. Apart from
:28:42. > :28:46.the attention, is there some other function can you tell from the
:28:46. > :28:50.targets they chose to compromise? don't think so, a lot of it wasn't
:28:50. > :28:56.pro-active, from the investigations I did for my book, a lot of it was
:28:56. > :29:01.reactive. They wouldn't say let's go after the CIA or let's go after
:29:01. > :29:05.Sony rb they would look across different web -- they would look
:29:05. > :29:09.across different websites and see what weaknesses they would find.
:29:09. > :29:13.When they found something everybody was game to go after it, once they
:29:13. > :29:16.put out a press release, they would justify it and slap on a political
:29:16. > :29:20.motive. Stkpwhrm did they understand what the real world
:29:20. > :29:26.conse -- Did they understand what the real world consequences would
:29:26. > :29:31.be? I think they did. But the sense of euphoria that came from the fame
:29:31. > :29:34.masked that for a while. I was talking them to as it was happening,
:29:34. > :29:38.one was talking about reaching a point of no return, where it all
:29:38. > :29:43.got so big, and they thought they would get arrested and part of them
:29:43. > :29:46.thought they wouldn't. It was kind of a detatched way of living in two
:29:46. > :29:51.worlds. I am the only thing holding this
:29:51. > :29:55.country together, has been the boast of one dictator after another.
:29:55. > :29:59.In Libya, which threw off Colonel Gaddafi, serious tensions emerged
:29:59. > :30:04.today. Revolutionary leaders in Benghazi, the city where the Libyan
:30:04. > :30:07.uprising began, have declared their commitment to a semi-autonomy in
:30:07. > :30:11.the post-Gaddafi state. We will talk about whether the country
:30:11. > :30:15.might fall apart shortly, first we have been to Colonel Gaddafi's home
:30:16. > :30:25.town, and the place where he was eventually killed. It has paid a
:30:26. > :30:26.
:30:26. > :30:32.heavy price. There are some disturbing images in this report.
:30:32. > :30:38.They love me, all my people with me, they love me all. They will die to
:30:38. > :30:48.protect me, my people. Just outside Sirte is a billion
:30:48. > :30:48.
:30:48. > :30:53.pound monument to vanity and excess. The complex was a summit venue, and
:30:53. > :31:03.intended by Gaddafi to be the capital for a united Africa.
:31:03. > :31:07.Saying from his green book still The marble, chrome and glass have
:31:07. > :31:16.been shattered by revolutionary fighters. It now stands testament
:31:16. > :31:24.to a modern Osimandius. Outside, some of the locals who
:31:24. > :31:28.joined the revolution saw us, and came to make their own gesture.
:31:28. > :31:34.TRANSLATION: The dictator Gaddafi turned this complex into a garden
:31:34. > :31:38.for himself and his guests, it was off limits to us, we are forbidden
:31:38. > :31:42.as residents of the city to come here, we couldn't go near it. By
:31:42. > :31:49.the grace of God now, everyone can enter the complex, hopefully it
:31:49. > :31:55.will be rebuilt and all the Libyan people will benefit from it. In the
:31:55. > :32:00.sent irof Sirte is the insurance -- centre of Sirte is this insurance
:32:00. > :32:05.building, it was said that allies shells were dropped after Gaddafi
:32:05. > :32:10.entered the basement There are many versions what happened here,
:32:10. > :32:13.firstly, that the international effort to help Libya was based on a
:32:14. > :32:18.UN resolution, that put protecting the civilian population from the
:32:18. > :32:22.Armed Forces, front and centre. Yet, by the time the conflict drew to a
:32:22. > :32:28.close, seven months later, it was this town where Gaddafi was born
:32:28. > :32:37.and killed that would prove to have been the most bombarded in the
:32:37. > :32:41.country. We drove down to the seafront, to
:32:41. > :32:48.the place where revolutionary fighters hemmed in the last Gaddafi
:32:48. > :32:53.loyalists, and pounded them for weeks. It is auld Area 2 -- it is
:32:53. > :32:57.called Area 2, and laid waste by the fighting. TRANSLATION: The town
:32:57. > :33:02.of Sirte has seen lots of damage, the destruction of homes, theft,
:33:02. > :33:05.plundering. Houses, schools and hospitals are all in ruins. The
:33:05. > :33:10.whole country has suffered immensely. If we ask the
:33:10. > :33:14.authorities for anything, they tell us to fill in a form and take it to
:33:14. > :33:20.head office. We never see results, nothing gets done. The scale of the
:33:20. > :33:25.damage was such that the majority of the 20,000 people living in Area
:33:25. > :33:30.2, left, most have still not returned.
:33:30. > :33:37.How are they coping living in the flat with no electricity or water?
:33:37. > :33:44.TRANSLATION: The water supply is very erratic. We often have to go
:33:44. > :33:48.to the standpipe and carry the water back in pots. People here are
:33:48. > :33:56.bitter about NATO's bombs and the wanton destruction of fellow
:33:56. > :34:04.Libyans. They don't know whether to greet or stone us. There were some
:34:04. > :34:08.desultry Gaddafi chants, locals are always looking for trouble, one
:34:08. > :34:11.fighter from Benghazi has been arrested for crimes against people.
:34:11. > :34:16.TRANSLATION: They killed and kidnapped and stole cars until they
:34:16. > :34:20.were detained and questioned. That is why we are not co-operative for
:34:20. > :34:25.revolutionaries outside, they didn't expect the law -- respect
:34:25. > :34:31.the laws here. There was a woman pregnant in labour, her husband
:34:31. > :34:35.took her to hospital, they fired at the car and killed her. The next
:34:35. > :34:39.day they were caught and it was found they were the cause of
:34:39. > :34:45.previous trouble in Sirte. When the town fell, the anti-Gaddafi
:34:45. > :34:51.fighters were jubilant. But people in the city say they also indulged
:34:51. > :34:56.in an orgy of vandalism. Even surveying the damage across
:34:56. > :35:01.Sirte today, it is so extensive and indiscriminate, it must have hit
:35:01. > :35:05.people who had long opposed the dictatorship. We totally support
:35:05. > :35:09.the freedom fighters, but what he this did after the liberation in
:35:09. > :35:13.Sirte, it is a complete disaster. They do the same as pro-Gaddafi.
:35:13. > :35:17.You came for freedom, for liberation, not for reveings. What
:35:17. > :35:27.happened to Sirte, it is totally revenge.
:35:27. > :35:29.
:35:29. > :35:34.It is not the freedom we fight for. It is not the people we fight for,
:35:34. > :35:39.we have to start again, and do it right, otherwise Muammar Gaddafi is
:35:39. > :35:43.still there. It was fighters from Misrata who captured the dictator
:35:43. > :35:46.and are thought to have killed him. Armed groups from that same place,
:35:46. > :35:54.a couple of hours drive up the coast, have taken it upon
:35:54. > :35:58.themselves to throw their weight around even now. Shocking footage
:35:58. > :36:03.has appeared on the Internet, contributing to charges of abuse
:36:03. > :36:08.against the revolutionary brigades. There were some mock executions,
:36:08. > :36:15.there was abuse, a lot of mockery, spitting, things like this, you can
:36:15. > :36:19.find most of this on-line. There is, to date, that I'm ware of, not been
:36:19. > :36:24.anyone convict -- aware of, not been anyone convicted. Plenty of
:36:24. > :36:27.cases, deaths in custody, torture, no investigations and no
:36:27. > :36:31.accountability for anybody. This is the crux of the problem when it
:36:31. > :36:38.comes to this. As people think they can get away with this sort of
:36:38. > :36:45.thing, and it is tolerated, you will see more of it. The militia
:36:45. > :36:49.brigades in Misrata, deny the charges of detainee abuse.
:36:49. > :36:53.TRANSLATION: Regarding mistreatment in prisons, that does not happen
:36:53. > :36:59.here. When a prisoner ray riefs, he's well treated. -- arrives, he
:36:59. > :37:07.is well treated, it is an administrative building, prisoners
:37:07. > :37:12.are provided with food. When they are captured they are subject today
:37:12. > :37:16.rough treatment, but in prison there are systems and food. This
:37:16. > :37:24.school in Sirte is just a few hundred metres from where Gaddafi
:37:24. > :37:29.was captured last October. It was damaged by gunfire, but it has been
:37:29. > :37:34.repaired and glass classes have resumed. There is an uneasy
:37:34. > :37:42.atmosphere among pupils and staff. I was in the prison in Misrata, for
:37:42. > :37:46.70 days, I came back here to my family in Sirte. Some military from
:37:47. > :37:54.Misrata caught me on the route, and took me there, and put me, my job
:37:54. > :38:00.is a teacher, and they put me in Misrata in the school. For 70 days.
:38:00. > :38:10.Still now there is many, many people in Misrata. They change, you
:38:10. > :38:12.
:38:12. > :38:16.see this school for study, but in Misrata they make it school for
:38:16. > :38:22.bringing people to it. While that teacher said he
:38:22. > :38:26.helicopter been torture, he did tell us it would be -- he had been
:38:26. > :38:32.tortured, he did say it would be years before Gaddafi's Green Flag
:38:32. > :38:35.would be taken down. For some of the boys our presence was not
:38:35. > :38:40.welcomed. Many of the children had lost brothers and sisters in the
:38:40. > :38:44.fighting, some of them blame NATO and the west. As we were leaving
:38:44. > :38:52.the mood changed distinctly, we came under a hail of stones and the
:38:52. > :38:57.vehicles were damaged. So what of the future for Sirte,
:38:57. > :39:02.aid agencies agree it needs more help in rebuilding, that any other
:39:02. > :39:08.town in Libya. TRANSLATION: As you can see the building is under
:39:08. > :39:12.construction, no power or water. Thousands of homes remain
:39:12. > :39:17.uninhabitable. Their owners have fetched up in places like this, a
:39:17. > :39:20.half finished apartment block, afraid their community is now
:39:20. > :39:25.stigmatised. TRANSLATION: People are concerned with their day-to-day
:39:25. > :39:30.life. They don't have time to support any politician, people have
:39:30. > :39:35.more pressing things to worry about, health, environment, the city is
:39:35. > :39:38.destroyed, if the infrastructure is destroyed, life is difficult.
:39:38. > :39:42.filmed we were aware the new authorities were keeping an eye on
:39:42. > :39:51.us. Several people with allegations against the revolution, said they
:39:51. > :39:56.were too frightened to be filmed. What are the options for the people
:39:56. > :40:01.of Sirte in the harsh new reality they live. There have been some
:40:01. > :40:06.rumours about the resumption of armed struggle, insurgency. Most
:40:06. > :40:11.people discount that as a viable strategy. Instead, fascinatingly,
:40:11. > :40:15.they are taking a leave out of the book of their former opponents in
:40:15. > :40:22.the revolutionary movement, using the Internet and other modern media
:40:22. > :40:26.to try to mobilise some public support.
:40:26. > :40:33.This presentation is part of the campaign that's recently born
:40:33. > :40:37.launched on behalf of Sirte -- been launched on behalf of Sirte. It
:40:37. > :40:44.encourages Libyans to discard their prejudices and help the city start
:40:44. > :40:50.anew. We started as the youth from Sirte. We started to show pictures
:40:50. > :40:57.and invited every embassy, UN, EU, just to show what happened to Sirte.
:40:57. > :41:03.We need people to talk out. I foal it is like a stab in my back,
:41:03. > :41:10.if I see my family and I see people inside Sirte, and they hurt, and
:41:10. > :41:13.nobody talks. It is bad. I don't care that Muammar Gaddafi
:41:13. > :41:23.is from Sirte, I care about the families there. So I have to speak
:41:23. > :41:29.out and the whole world they have to hear us.
:41:29. > :41:35.Sirte has its own Glean Square, another forlorn reminder of
:41:35. > :41:39.Gaddafi's grand design and its failure. Now post-revolution, the
:41:39. > :41:44.city stands for something different. The fate of Sirte now is very
:41:44. > :41:51.important, and so the way that the new Libyan authorities treat places
:41:51. > :41:55.that were seen to be very loyal to Gaddafi is going to be a litmus
:41:55. > :42:00.test for what the future will hold. When I was interviewing people,
:42:00. > :42:06.families from Sirte back in October, one of the gentlemen said to me,
:42:06. > :42:12.right now we don't have have the power to fight back, but we will
:42:12. > :42:17.not forget, and when we do, we will. Having had so much money lavished
:42:17. > :42:25.upon it in the past, some Libyans now feel Sirte should go to the
:42:25. > :42:31.back of the queue. But people will watch what happens here, both those
:42:31. > :42:35.who believe democracy and human rights can triumph over revenge and
:42:35. > :42:40.tribalism, as well as those who support unpopular leaders, and
:42:40. > :42:45.wonder what might happen to them when their leader is tumbled from
:42:45. > :42:52.the pedestal. Joining me from Italy is a member of the Libyan National
:42:52. > :42:58.Transitional Council. Isn't Sirte entitled to as much assistance as
:42:58. > :43:03.any other place in Italy? Xaebgtly, this revolution is for -- exactly,
:43:03. > :43:09.this revolution is for all Libyans together. Libya is united, west,
:43:09. > :43:13.east and north, it will be united and the whole country is united. It
:43:13. > :43:16.clearly isn't united, let's be realistic, it is clearly not, we
:43:16. > :43:23.will come to the politics in a second. Let's look at the question
:43:23. > :43:32.of torture, these allegations of torture, made by organisations like
:43:33. > :43:38.Human Rights Watch, Medecins sans frontier, this is a discais
:43:38. > :43:44.national -- a disgraceful state of affairs? I have been visiting so
:43:44. > :43:47.many prisons in Misrata and Tripoli. It seems if you have a few cases
:43:47. > :43:53.but it doesn't say that is the whole country like this, or the
:43:54. > :43:58.whole person is like this. Amnesty International visited 11 place of
:43:58. > :44:03.at the detention, ten of which people said they had been subjected
:44:03. > :44:09.to mistreatment? Well, I can tell us, most of the prisoners, they
:44:09. > :44:16.received their families, visiting, almost every second day. If there
:44:16. > :44:21.is something like that, it will be sent by the familiar lose. --
:44:21. > :44:25.families. Now we have a system that all prisoners, even the dangerous
:44:25. > :44:32.guys, visit their families. Some have been transferred to their
:44:32. > :44:38.homes. There is no negotiations at all. But you may find ...There
:44:39. > :44:44.pictures of people being tortured on the Internet, they are all fake?
:44:44. > :44:48.Anything which the Internet is trying to film from a prison. We
:44:48. > :44:52.don't know where it is come ring from. If you and any other
:44:52. > :44:55.organisations come and visit the prisoner themselves. Anything that
:44:55. > :44:59.you and the Internet are not responsible for, because we don't
:44:59. > :45:04.know where it comes from. Can we talk about the politics for a
:45:04. > :45:08.second or two? This demand today from Benghazi that the arrangement
:45:08. > :45:12.within the country be changed, so that there be some sort of federal
:45:12. > :45:17.system, in which Benghazi is left much more, and the area around it,
:45:17. > :45:22.is left much more to its own devices, doesn't that indicate a
:45:22. > :45:27.profound lack of faith in the current arrangements.
:45:27. > :45:32.I don't think so, federalisation is something that is more, and it is
:45:32. > :45:38.not something for me or NTC or any member of Libya now to talk about
:45:38. > :45:43.or decide where to go. It is too early for the Libyans to decide,
:45:43. > :45:47.whether to go for the king dom, whatever it is. We are wait --
:45:47. > :45:52.kingdom, whatever it is, we are waiting for the constitution, and
:45:52. > :45:58.then the six million Libyans decide where to go. We are not saying if
:45:58. > :46:03.the organisation is good or bad, it is too early to say. This group
:46:03. > :46:11.gathered together and decided to go for it, they are not presenting
:46:11. > :46:16.eastern parts, that is where the uprising started. You will see so
:46:16. > :46:24.many demonstrations, again it is this, there was a survey done by
:46:25. > :46:32.some media, in that region, only 30% or 25% with that .5% against.
:46:32. > :46:37.So we are, this is something which is again the wish of the people.
:46:37. > :46:40.Thank you for spending the time to talk to us. Thank you. That is all
:46:40. > :46:45.from Newsnight tonight, the 50th anniversary of the publication of
:46:45. > :46:50.the report, which showed what tobacco does to your health. There
:46:50. > :46:57.are still eight million who spoke, and the accumulated loss of life he
:46:57. > :47:04.can speck tancy is said to be a million years. 50 years enough to
:47:04. > :47:11.build up of those life expectancy sis.
:47:11. > :47:20.I like spoking. I enjoy it. -- like smoking, I enjoy it. Is it
:47:20. > :47:24.worth the risk? Yes. Honestly it is one's life, at the end of one's
:47:24. > :47:29.life you are probably more in the hand of almighty God than in my own
:47:29. > :47:33.hand. Are you going to try to cut down now the report is out??
:47:34. > :47:38.don't think so, I don't think I spoke heavily enough to worry about
:47:38. > :47:45.it. Don't you believe the connection between cancer? Maybe, I
:47:45. > :47:49.connection between cancer? Maybe, I have never been really ill.
:47:49. > :47:54.Hello, some wind and drain crossing the country at the moment, soggy
:47:54. > :47:58.end to the night for most places. Causing problems for the early
:47:58. > :48:04.morning commute. Things will improve by the afternoon, most of
:48:04. > :48:12.us brighter and breezy. Sun shy, but a cold wind, a scattering of
:48:12. > :48:17.blus -- sunshine but a cold wind. Bright and breezy in the afternoon.
:48:17. > :48:22.Showers are isolated, racing through on the blustery wind. If
:48:22. > :48:26.anything, falling away during the course of the afternoon as colder
:48:26. > :48:31.air digs are from the west. It means the showers across snow
:48:31. > :48:35.downia could turn wintry, and in the Highland. For Scotland we are
:48:35. > :48:39.concerned that later on in the day, we could see nasty conditions,
:48:39. > :48:44.significant snowfall, not just over the mountains, but low level as we
:48:44. > :48:49.see the snow blowing around. It is all change on Thursday, milder
:48:49. > :48:52.again across northern areas, milder, cloudier and outbreak of rain,
:48:52. > :48:57.particularly for western Scotland and Northern Ireland. Further south
:48:57. > :49:02.it looks like drying up, sunshine, after a frosty start. The trend as