:00:08. > :00:12.David Cameron and Barack Obama meet tomorrow in Washington, they
:00:12. > :00:15.promise to stay the course in Afghanistan, but are they now
:00:15. > :00:19.heading for an exit strategy even more quickly than planned.
:00:19. > :00:24.The massacre of children by an American soldier, which has
:00:24. > :00:28.horrified the country, they say they are protecting, won't change
:00:28. > :00:33.the overall strategy. We have already been told. What is not
:00:33. > :00:39.going to happen is the mission would self-resolve as of this, it
:00:39. > :00:42.is a tragic incident, but it would be a far greater tragedy to let it
:00:42. > :00:48.affect what we are doing in the country. What is gained by the
:00:48. > :00:53.troops' presence in this troubled theatre of war.
:00:53. > :00:57.Not since The Sex Pistols has there been a shortage like it, water is
:00:57. > :01:01.once again a precious commodity. With water levels in some of
:01:01. > :01:06.Britain's rivers at record lows, is drought something we will just have
:01:06. > :01:10.to learn to live with. unspeakable atrocity in Syria, is
:01:10. > :01:15.there any chance the world agreeing a plan to tame President Assad?
:01:15. > :01:20.Also tonight. These were the villages, under the
:01:20. > :01:24.fields was clay, under the clay, coal. The Staffordshire pot rees
:01:25. > :01:30.gave birth to one of the first great British brands, does it
:01:30. > :01:40.matter if the Wedgwood collection gets flogged off and dispersed. The
:01:40. > :01:41.
:01:41. > :01:45.Culture Minister, historian and the teapot tycoon, are with us.
:01:45. > :01:51.There will be no change of course in Afghanistan, the White House
:01:51. > :01:57.said today, Downing Street trot the out the same message, Afghan
:01:57. > :02:02.politician, meanwhile, had demanded the American soldiers who cold-
:02:02. > :02:07.bloodedly shot 16 villagers, including nine children, be put on
:02:07. > :02:10.trial there. There are some signs of a change in how US and UK troops
:02:10. > :02:15.may approach combat operations, we will hear about that shortly. First
:02:15. > :02:25.Mark Urban on NATO's increasingly strained future in the country. To
:02:25. > :02:27.
:02:27. > :02:33.the insult of Koran burning has been added the injury of incident,
:02:33. > :02:37.16 people, nine of them children, killed in a rampage by a deranged
:02:37. > :02:41.loner. It complicates the search for daiingfied exit from
:02:41. > :02:45.Afghanistan. The strategy of this week could be expected to further
:02:45. > :02:51.exacerbate the problems and delays, it is the sort of thing that has
:02:51. > :02:55.poisoned the atmosphere so far, in terms of night raids, civilian
:02:55. > :03:01.casualties and so on, it has been problematic. In the aftermath of
:03:01. > :03:06.yesterday's attack, echos of Iraq, with Afghan parliamentarians asking
:03:06. > :03:11.forthright to deal with foreign perpetrators in their own courts.
:03:11. > :03:19.TRANSLATION: The Afghan parliament issued an a resolution today
:03:19. > :03:24.against the reaction of American soldiers inside Afghanistan, and
:03:24. > :03:27.asked that the perpetrator should go to court inside Afghanistan.
:03:27. > :03:32.riots following the burning of the copies of the Koran have claimed
:03:32. > :03:41.dozens of lives, and perhaps produced a more serious crisis than
:03:41. > :03:47.yesterday's murders. As attacks on western places have increased, the
:03:47. > :03:50.Afghan Government has led to the withdrawal of ministries and
:03:50. > :03:57.halting of restoration work. Karzai Government is full of
:03:57. > :04:04.corruption, one of the way of improving the Afghan Government's
:04:04. > :04:08.performance of the presence of the UN community to deter that. Without
:04:08. > :04:15.the ability to get on the ground caused both by the deteriorating
:04:15. > :04:19.security situation, and also a reliance on often unreliable Afghan
:04:19. > :04:22.security guards, it becomes very, very difficult over the remaining
:04:22. > :04:27.year-and-a-half or so of the international presence.
:04:27. > :04:31.There are more big issues lurking, as NATO tries to move into the
:04:31. > :04:35.background. From talking to the Taliban, to relations with Pakistan,
:04:35. > :04:39.and fighting corruption in Kabul's ministries. But despite that, the
:04:39. > :04:44.US and Afghan Governments are trying to negotiate a framework
:04:44. > :04:48.that would allow American troops to stay in the country, beyond the
:04:48. > :04:52.handover of security in 2014. Although President Karzai's people
:04:52. > :04:57.have talked today about spending those talks, no-one is saying that
:04:57. > :05:01.they should be stopped all together. The Karzai Government may not be
:05:01. > :05:06.strong enough to stand without foreign help, which is why they are
:05:06. > :05:10.still seeking long-term military aid. But before NATO can get to the
:05:10. > :05:13.post -withdrawal state, that pull- out itself must happen, without
:05:13. > :05:17.looking like a shambles. The problems with the Afghan
:05:17. > :05:22.Government, the way in which corruption has remained a huge
:05:22. > :05:25.problem. The role of Pakistan's Government not really clamping down
:05:25. > :05:29.on insurgent sabgt trees, all these structural fundamental problems are
:05:29. > :05:34.still there. They cast some doubt on the likely success of the
:05:34. > :05:39.mission. I think we have a better than 50-50 chance of some moderate,
:05:39. > :05:43.acceptable, minimal standard of success, being achieved, or at
:05:43. > :05:50.least defeat being avoided. But every single hit like this has to
:05:50. > :05:53.lower your confidence a little bit. Whatever happens to the speed of
:05:53. > :05:58.withdrawal, and the difficult relationship with President Karzai,
:05:58. > :06:02.NATO's leaders are committed to winding down their combat
:06:02. > :06:07.deployments. Neither side has a practical alternative, and on the
:06:07. > :06:09.eve of a White House meeting, that was David Cameron's message tonight.
:06:09. > :06:13.In terms of my talks about President Obama, we have a good
:06:13. > :06:18.plan, we have a plan which is is about transitioning Afghanistan
:06:18. > :06:22.over to Afghan control. That plan applies in Helmand as much as
:06:22. > :06:26.anywhere else. The most important thing is we stick to that plan and
:06:26. > :06:29.deliver that plan, and then we can bring our troops home, having done
:06:29. > :06:31.a good job in giving Afghanistan at least a chance of stability and the
:06:31. > :06:37.prosperity and growth for the future.
:06:37. > :06:40.The people of Panjwai had already suffered from years of fighting in
:06:40. > :06:45.their district, it was Taliban stronghold, and few would have
:06:45. > :06:49.supported the Americans even before yesterday's killing. But the ripple
:06:49. > :06:55.effects of what happened are now being felt, not least in NATO
:06:55. > :06:59.capitals, where pessimism grows about Afghanistan.
:06:59. > :07:03.Mark Urban is with us in the studio. Will there be a change of strategy?
:07:03. > :07:06.I don't think there is, but they will make it look like there has
:07:06. > :07:10.been a change of strategy, because they feel the need to do something
:07:10. > :07:14.tonight. We see the papers being briefed that the Afghan exit could
:07:14. > :07:19.be speeded up. When you look at the fine print there are some pretty
:07:19. > :07:23.weasel words about stepping back from a lead combat role. Yet we
:07:23. > :07:27.know combat operations could continue, even beyond 2014, under
:07:27. > :07:30.the agreement that they are trying to negotiate with President Karzai
:07:30. > :07:35.in the background of all this turbulence at the moment. What this
:07:35. > :07:40.could be about tomorrow is trying to look like a determined response
:07:40. > :07:44.to some of the bad news we have had out of Afghanistan recently. To say
:07:44. > :07:48.we are getting out as fast as we can, and make it look faster. But
:07:48. > :07:51.logistics and other considerations mean they can't wind down much
:07:51. > :07:54.faster. To discuss whether NATO's involvement in Afghanistan is
:07:55. > :07:58.really making us any safer, I'm joined from Boston by Peter
:07:58. > :08:02.Galbraith, a former diplomat, the UN's deputy ambassador to
:08:02. > :08:08.Afghanistan, here in the studio, Lord Hutton, the former Defence
:08:08. > :08:14.Secretary, and chair of the royal united services institute. And
:08:14. > :08:17.Maddox, the editor Prospect Magazine.
:08:17. > :08:21.What are we achieving being there? We have achieved a lot over the
:08:21. > :08:23.past few years. What are we achieving now? We are giving the
:08:23. > :08:27.Afghans the prospect of being confident and capable of looking
:08:27. > :08:31.after their own security. Which, quite frankly, they wouldn't have
:08:31. > :08:34.done if we weren't there. We have denied space to Al-Qaeda and their
:08:34. > :08:40.supporters, that is a significant goal in itself. The priority now
:08:40. > :08:44.has to be to complete the mission in a sense as Mark described it.
:08:44. > :08:48.get out? We are getting out. We are there so we can get out? No, to do
:08:48. > :08:51.the things I said earlier, to support the Afghans, giving them
:08:51. > :08:55.the chance of being capable of looking after security in their own
:08:55. > :08:58.country, which they were not capable of unless we had been
:08:58. > :09:02.physically present. The task now, as the Prime Minister and President
:09:02. > :09:07.have made clear, is to end combat operations over the next two years,
:09:07. > :09:11.and I think over that period of time, lay the foundations for
:09:11. > :09:14.giving the Afghans this concept of being confident in looking after
:09:14. > :09:18.their own security. That is exactly what you have just said, the reason
:09:18. > :09:22.we are there is to get out? I have not described the mission properly
:09:22. > :09:27.then. There is a two-year training and support operation between now
:09:27. > :09:31.and then. They can be replaced then? So the Afghans can look after
:09:31. > :09:34.their own security, that was always the mission. There was never an
:09:34. > :09:38.intention and plan in 2005 and beyond for us to be there forever.
:09:38. > :09:42.The point was to support the new Government in Kabul, and give them
:09:42. > :09:45.the means to defend themselves, so they could actually make sure that
:09:45. > :09:50.Al-Qaeda and their supporters couldn't come back. What do you
:09:50. > :09:54.think would happen if there were to be a change of policy, and the
:09:54. > :10:00.Americans, predominantly the Americans and their allies, were to
:10:00. > :10:08.decide to leave now? First, the United States and its allies would
:10:08. > :10:15.save a lot of money, the United States spent $117 billion in
:10:15. > :10:20.Afghanistan in 2011, and it might be able to devote more resources
:10:20. > :10:25.where Al-Qaeda is a threat. It is not a threat in Afghanistan, but it
:10:25. > :10:28.is a threat in Pakistan, Somalia, Yemen and among other places. What
:10:28. > :10:31.would happen in Afghanistan? I don't think the situation in
:10:31. > :10:34.Afghanistan would look any different. The problem in
:10:34. > :10:39.Afghanistan is we have a counter insurgency strategy that is not
:10:39. > :10:44.working, and cannot work, because it depends on having a reliable
:10:44. > :10:49.partner, and the corrupt, ineffective and illegitimate
:10:49. > :10:55.Government of Hamid Karzai is not such a partner. The strategy is
:10:55. > :10:58.simply not working, and there is no prospect of making it work. So we
:10:58. > :11:01.could debate whether Afghanistan is worth it. I don't think it is worth
:11:01. > :11:05.it. Even if it were very important, we don't have a strategy that will
:11:05. > :11:12.work. If we withdraw, the north will be still more or less
:11:12. > :11:14.independent of the Taliban, because the Taliban is an entirely Pashtun
:11:14. > :11:17.movement, I don't think the Taliban will take Kabul, they will continue
:11:17. > :11:21.to control the south and east as they do now. Bronwen Maddox, from
:11:21. > :11:27.where you sit, what has been achieved for the tens of billions
:11:27. > :11:32.of pounds, and the 404 young lives? Not a lot, but a bit. One of those
:11:32. > :11:36.things, as John Hutton was saying, is to get rid of Al-Qaeda more or
:11:36. > :11:40.less from Afghanistan. One is to persuade Pakistan that it needs to
:11:40. > :11:45.try to do something about its wild west, if you like, its wild
:11:45. > :11:50.frontier, but not a lot. anything achieved by staying there?
:11:50. > :11:52.I think still a bit, but not for very much longer. It would be
:11:52. > :11:57.really those two things. Peter Galbraith marvellously describes
:11:57. > :12:03.the Karzai Government, I think he understates the case for how bad it
:12:03. > :12:08.is. I would guess you could say by staying there it gives it a bit
:12:08. > :12:12.more time to try to do a deal with the Taliban and achieve a kind of
:12:12. > :12:19.stability. It certainly gives America a bit more time to put
:12:19. > :12:22.pressure on Pakistan. This is a terrible thing since, John Hutton,
:12:22. > :12:25.there seems widespread consensus on the sort of Government, you may say
:12:26. > :12:28.it is the only Government, but the sort of Government that there is in
:12:28. > :12:32.Afghanistan at the moment now. That is not a great thing to have died
:12:32. > :12:36.for, is it? The Afghan Government has been mired in corruption, they
:12:36. > :12:41.have not been reliable partners for much of the time we have been
:12:41. > :12:45.involved in this campaign. That has restricted the sort of progress we
:12:45. > :12:47.would have liked to have made. It is a complicated operation, there
:12:47. > :12:51.is only one Government in Afghanistan, there is no other
:12:51. > :12:55.Government to work with, we have no choice, no option. There is still a
:12:55. > :13:01.job to be done there, I think. I believe that very, very strongly. I
:13:01. > :13:06.think it is right, what Peter is saying, that the terrorist threat
:13:06. > :13:09.from Al-Qaeda and linked organisations is diverse and more
:13:09. > :13:13.spread. If we were to rewrite history and say we shouldn't have
:13:13. > :13:17.gone to Afghanistan, there has been no gain from that mission, I think
:13:18. > :13:23.we really would be standing history on its head. I think there have
:13:23. > :13:28.been tangible gains t has been an immensely comply it cad campaign to
:13:28. > :13:38.prosecute, I don't dis-- complicated campaign to prosecute.
:13:38. > :13:41.
:13:41. > :13:48.I don't dispute that. I don't know. When was the last Al-
:13:48. > :13:51.Qaeda casualty? I don't know. was over a year ago. You could
:13:51. > :13:56.argue that it has a bit, but a lot of them have been killed in the
:13:56. > :14:03.past six months, that is not an argument for staying indefinitely.
:14:03. > :14:06.The battle against Al-Qaeda is not just Afghanistan, we are pursuing
:14:06. > :14:12.and apprehending Al-Qaeda suspects around the world. We have to ask if
:14:12. > :14:16.we hadn't gone how would the world look? We mustn't Lois sight of the
:14:16. > :14:21.9/11 context, and how the world looked then when we went into
:14:21. > :14:25.Afghanistan. What do you think the Afghan operation has done to the
:14:25. > :14:35.way western powers regard the rest of the world, and the way the rest
:14:35. > :14:36.
:14:36. > :14:41.of the world regards NATO? First, the Afghan war was justified in
:14:41. > :14:45.2001, but the mission was more or less accomplished at the end of
:14:46. > :14:51.2001. The Taliban and Al-Qaeda were out of Afghanistan. We then changed
:14:51. > :14:55.the mission into, and a very ambitious effort to create a
:14:55. > :14:57.centralised Afghan Government, in a country that had never known a
:14:57. > :15:03.centralised Government, that was one of the most diverse countries
:15:03. > :15:06.in the world, both ethically, and geographically. We have been
:15:06. > :15:11.investing half a trillion dollars in that effort, with no success,
:15:11. > :15:15.for the reasons that Lord Hutton himself said. Namely, we don't have
:15:15. > :15:20.a reliable partner, we can wish that the Karzai Government was more
:15:20. > :15:24.reliable, but it isn't. If your strategy depends on a reliable
:15:24. > :15:30.partner, and there isn't one, and there isn't any way to get one, it
:15:30. > :15:35.isn't going to work. What is the largeer lesson? It is when you
:15:35. > :15:39.engage -- larger lesson? It is when you engage in missions as in
:15:39. > :15:43.Afghanistan and Iraq, you are undertaking something that you
:15:43. > :15:47.probably can't accomplish. When you engage in intervention they
:15:47. > :15:51.probably only work when you have a much more limited agenda, which is
:15:51. > :15:56.to support the agendas of your partners on the ground. That's what
:15:56. > :15:59.worked in Libya, Bosnia and Kosovo, to name three quite successful
:15:59. > :16:04.cases. Bronwen Maddox what do you think is the legacy of the
:16:04. > :16:10.operation? I think it makes NATO look like an organisation that
:16:10. > :16:15.chooses the wrong wars to fights, that makes big misjudgments, and
:16:15. > :16:19.now one that is much less likely to go to war at all. What do you think
:16:19. > :16:22.has been the legacy of the Afghan war? It is too early to tell. I
:16:23. > :16:25.think we have had some success on the ground. I think we have made a
:16:25. > :16:29.difference in terms of protecting the UK from the threat of terrorism,
:16:29. > :16:33.but this battle, this war against this kind of terrorism is going to
:16:33. > :16:36.go on, it is not over yet. It won't be over when we come out of
:16:36. > :16:40.Afghanistan either. Thank you all very much.
:16:40. > :16:46.Don't put the kettle on, mother, come to that, don't flush the loo
:16:46. > :16:51.more than you need to. We haven't reached the depth of drought
:16:51. > :16:56.restrictions, but today's announcement of seven hosepipe bans,
:16:56. > :17:00.says that unless the heavens open frequently and for long periods,
:17:01. > :17:05.much worse is to come, and the clocks haven't even gone forward
:17:05. > :17:15.yet. The wet weather here used to be a standing joke, but had we
:17:15. > :17:23.
:17:23. > :17:28.Look back 40 years and things have changed a lot on some of Britain's
:17:28. > :17:31.rivers, the ducks here in Berkshire have been wading not swimming for
:17:31. > :17:34.weeks now, and people round here won't have been surprised by
:17:34. > :17:40.today's hosepipe bans and predictions of further drought.
:17:40. > :17:49.you go back 37 years it was very full. It was up to my river bank
:17:49. > :17:55.level. So gradually, through the years, it has sort of got lower and
:17:55. > :18:02.lower. It used to be a fishing place, and plenty of wildlife.
:18:02. > :18:11.Water voles, greebs, we don't have those things now. Even my dog is
:18:11. > :18:14.braving his way into it. Normally water of the River Lambourn runs
:18:15. > :18:19.through here, it is fed chalky deposits and is fed through the
:18:19. > :18:25.winter. After two dry winters levels are exceptionally low,
:18:25. > :18:34.comparable with the famous drought of 1976, when water levels were the
:18:34. > :18:39.lowest for 100 years. The situation has deteriorated nationally. That
:18:39. > :18:43.dry summer has become the measure. Environmentalists said we could see
:18:43. > :18:46.droughts spread to east Yorkshire and Shropshire and Somerset. The
:18:46. > :18:50.whole of the south-east and East Anglia are already in drought.
:18:50. > :19:00.Today's report nods to compaints that the practices of water
:19:00. > :19:15.
:19:15. > :19:20.companies have some how made What about the next 40 years? Can
:19:20. > :19:25.science tell us much about what the rivers may look like in the future?
:19:25. > :19:29.Globally we are confident in terms of when it rains it will, when it
:19:29. > :19:32.rains heavily, it will rain even more heavily, and also we are quite
:19:32. > :19:36.confident in the already very dry regions, like the Mediterranean,
:19:36. > :19:41.there will be a decline in the rainfall amount. But as you come to
:19:41. > :19:48.smaller and smaller scales like say for the UK, it becomes very
:19:48. > :19:51.dependant on very subtle shifts in the large scale atmospheric flows,
:19:51. > :19:55.for example the jet strategy and the way it drives weather systems
:19:55. > :20:02.across the country, are very sensitive to the natural oslaigss
:20:02. > :20:06.that are always going on in -- osilations going on. When it comes
:20:06. > :20:11.down to that it is difficult to make a natural projection. Those
:20:11. > :20:15.responsible for adapt to go the changing reserves of water can look
:20:15. > :20:20.to projections, the Government uses climate projections based on carbon
:20:20. > :20:23.emissions and how it will affect the climate, each with confidence
:20:23. > :20:28.levels attached. It is a complicated set of data to get to
:20:28. > :20:34.grips w and a tricky basis on which to make policy. We are getting
:20:34. > :20:39.there, ever more detailed climate models with all the processes of
:20:39. > :20:43.weather and climate, how think interact and effect the hide
:20:43. > :20:49.logical cycle. We are getting near -- hydrological cycle. We are
:20:49. > :20:53.getting near to high resolutions of how it may change. We are not there
:20:53. > :20:59.yet? There are things in the pipeline coming, I'm convinced in
:20:59. > :21:03.the next five years we will be able to start providing the answers, and
:21:03. > :21:08.directly verifiable against the measurements. We can't give a
:21:08. > :21:13.definitive idea, we have to plan for a change in the extreme, some
:21:13. > :21:18.heavier rainfall and years where you experience droughts. Customers
:21:18. > :21:23.at the Swann think there is more than changing rainfall behind the
:21:23. > :21:27.drought? They blame everything from water companies to farmers to cliel
:21:27. > :21:32.mate change and anything else, there is always -- climate change,
:21:32. > :21:37.and anything else. There is always a view in the pub. The ducks may
:21:37. > :21:41.not be the only people modifying their lifestyle, we could see food
:21:41. > :21:46.prices rise as crops are affected. If a dry spring follows a dry
:21:46. > :21:50.winter. With us now are the shadow
:21:50. > :21:53.Environment Secretary, and a representative from Thames Water
:21:53. > :21:57.one of the companies to announce a man today.
:21:57. > :22:01.Do you support the house pipe ban? We think it is important that the
:22:01. > :22:07.Government and water Companies Act to make sure we don't have more
:22:07. > :22:13.stringent restrictions on customers. You do support it? We do. Why are
:22:13. > :22:17.you blaming the Government for it? We think they needing to further
:22:17. > :22:22.and faster in affordability. Affordability is another matter?
:22:22. > :22:27.is linked to how you invest in the water network. Driving down bad
:22:27. > :22:32.deblt and helping people pay -- bad debt and helping people pay bills
:22:32. > :22:35.helps in the investment for water pipes. You would say it is partly
:22:35. > :22:40.the Government's fault we have no water? There as water bill that is
:22:40. > :22:43.delayed, and not looked like it will be in the Queen's Speech,
:22:43. > :22:49.where the Government could take be atruction from rivers and other
:22:49. > :22:53.areas where they could be taking action quicker, we may have to
:22:53. > :22:57.weight for 2014 for that. There were no rainfall variations under
:22:57. > :23:02.Labour? There were, and we took action to drive down leak, they
:23:02. > :23:08.have reduced by 40%, and allow people metre compulsory, 50% of
:23:08. > :23:12.homes will be metered by 2015. were your companies' profits last -
:23:12. > :23:18.- company's profits last year? million after tax. What do you
:23:18. > :23:22.think of a refund on bills every time you introduce a hosepipe ban?
:23:22. > :23:26.If we were failing, yes, we agrow levels of service. We agree in a
:23:26. > :23:32.drought we expect one year in 20 we would need restrictions. Otherwise
:23:32. > :23:37.we would have to invest a whole lot more to deal with a situation that
:23:37. > :23:41.occurs rarely. There is �200 million that could be spent in
:23:42. > :23:45.leaks? The shareholders need a return on the company or they will
:23:45. > :23:50.invest elsewhere. That is why offwatt decides on the fair return
:23:50. > :23:54.for a company doing an efficient job. What are they doing wrong?
:23:54. > :23:57.think it is a question of a national framework. There is a
:23:57. > :24:00.question within water companies for them to transfer water amongst
:24:00. > :24:03.their own regions. Transferring water between regions ought to be
:24:03. > :24:11.better. There is an area where the national Government needs to create
:24:11. > :24:14.a national framework. Is that feasible? We can do more about
:24:14. > :24:17.transferring water between companies, we need to join up the
:24:17. > :24:21.existing bypasss between the companies better rather than a new
:24:21. > :24:25.grid. Why haven't you done it? have done it and we can do more.
:24:26. > :24:30.The need is to move the smallest amount of water the smallest
:24:30. > :24:36.distance so we can cope with wherever the droubt will be. They
:24:36. > :24:43.aren't always in the south-east, last year it was the Lake District.
:24:43. > :24:48.The big one in 1976 was in Yorkshire, the Midlands? It was.
:24:48. > :24:57.Beneath all of this are all sorts of assumptions about what we are
:24:57. > :25:01.entitled to expect from water. With redeprived of anything not watering
:25:01. > :25:05.our gardens? It is about educating people. Lifestyle means we are
:25:05. > :25:10.running the dishwasher and washing machine more often. Do you think
:25:11. > :25:14.people should have the freedom to pour water on the flower beds? I'm
:25:14. > :25:18.asking you, what do you think? People who pay their water bills
:25:19. > :25:25.have a right to expect water out of their taps. Unlimited amounts, to
:25:25. > :25:28.do with what they please? By 2015, 50% of people will be on water
:25:28. > :25:33.metres, when that happens people will reduce their consumption.
:25:33. > :25:39.are in favour of metres, if they decide they are willing to pay the
:25:39. > :25:45.cost per metre of unit water, should they be entitled to do with
:25:45. > :25:49.it what they wish? It is a national resource and somebody pouring it on
:25:49. > :25:53.their garden will deprive someone else in the year. So the answer is
:25:53. > :25:56.they shouldn't? It depends on whether it rains, it is very
:25:56. > :26:01.unpredictable. Precisely, what should they spend it on and what
:26:01. > :26:05.should they not be allowed to spend it on? The Government needs to
:26:05. > :26:09.educate people on how to reduce water. There is things like hippos
:26:09. > :26:14.you can put in your cistern, flushing the loo less, but nobody
:26:14. > :26:20.wants to go into the detailed areas, because it sounds like the nanny
:26:20. > :26:25.state. What do you think, it is all money for you, do you think people
:26:25. > :26:30.should be free to do what they want with water? That is what the law
:26:30. > :26:33.says, we have a statutory duty to supply water to customers, we help
:26:33. > :26:39.them to get free water saving equipment from the website. This is
:26:39. > :26:44.all stuff you put in your loo and it saves water. But the profound
:26:44. > :26:47.question, what people are entitled to expect to do with a fine night
:26:47. > :26:52.supply? At the moment they are entitled to do whatever they want
:26:52. > :26:56.if they are paying for it. We neat more metering so people pay for
:26:56. > :27:01.what they use. And if they choose to chuck it on the garden it is OK?
:27:01. > :27:08.It is education, it is the same as turning the lights off. We need to
:27:08. > :27:18.get at it through schools, through education of customers, and works
:27:18. > :27:20.
:27:20. > :27:25.with customers are to get the overall de --. We are working on
:27:25. > :27:31.procedures to help people not ruin their garden in a hosepipe ban. You
:27:31. > :27:36.can get a sprinkler at the moment that can use all the water for a
:27:36. > :27:41.family in one hour. 47 women and children dead. The
:27:41. > :27:45.latest apparent horror in President Assad's attempt to cow his people,
:27:45. > :27:50.is especially distressing, many of the victims had their throats cut.
:27:50. > :27:54.The President's mouth piece blamed unnamed terrorists for the murders.
:27:54. > :27:58.Those Syrians hoping the rest of the world will put aside
:27:58. > :28:02.differences and come to their Waiting For Sunrise in vain. In the
:28:02. > :28:09.UN, prospects of new resolutions are fading as the United States and
:28:09. > :28:13.Russia continue to disagree about the way forward.
:28:13. > :28:19.We start now in Syria? There are accounts from several opposition
:28:19. > :28:23.activists in Homs, as you say, of the killing of more than 40 people
:28:23. > :28:28.last night, men, women and children, all from the same few families.
:28:28. > :28:32.These pictures, which we can't verify, apparently show the bodies
:28:32. > :28:35.being taken for burial. What we understand according to the
:28:35. > :28:41.accounts, is they were taken by Government forces and then handed
:28:41. > :28:45.over to pro-Government thugs, what this man, who says he escaped the
:28:45. > :28:49.massacre, he says they were held in a room for more than two hours,
:28:49. > :28:53.they were dowsed with petrol, some of them were set on fire. The
:28:53. > :28:56.accounts do differ a bit, particularly in where exactly the
:28:56. > :28:59.killings took place. As you say, of course, the Government is blaming
:28:59. > :29:04.the whole massacre on the opposition, saying they filmed this
:29:04. > :29:08.in order to discredit the Government. Now, is there any
:29:08. > :29:11.diplomatic progress on trying to get an intervention or solution?
:29:11. > :29:15.There was a whole special session of the United Nations Security
:29:15. > :29:18.Council, called by Britain, and the Foreign Secretary, William Hague,
:29:18. > :29:22.said the council had failed completely so far in its
:29:22. > :29:26.responsibility to the Syrian people. He's talking about the failure to
:29:26. > :29:30.agree any kind of resolution at all, condemning the violence, because of
:29:30. > :29:34.the opposition of Russia and China. You could see that fod, because the
:29:35. > :29:38.Russian foreign minutes -- today, because the Russian Foreign
:29:38. > :29:44.Minister not only blamed the Government but the opposition for
:29:44. > :29:48.the violence, he talked about Al- Qaeda extremists. Slowly, finally,
:29:48. > :29:53.the west and Russia are beginning to come together, there may be an
:29:53. > :29:58.agreed form of words, the difficulty now is the call to say
:29:58. > :30:01.there should be a stop in shooting. It is symbolic to have a ref Luis,
:30:01. > :30:05.but it won't necessarily change the situation on the ground. What about
:30:05. > :30:10.the talk of arming the rebels? There is something interesting
:30:10. > :30:13.today from the main opposition grouping, from the Syrian National
:30:13. > :30:19.Council. They say the Free Syrian Army is being helped with weapons
:30:19. > :30:24.from outside from other countries, they won't say which countries, we
:30:24. > :30:29.think it is Saudi Arabia and Qatar which proposed this before. The
:30:29. > :30:33.signs are it is happening slowly. The evidence on the ground suggests
:30:33. > :30:37.the only weapons is rifles, and other light weapons, there is no
:30:37. > :30:42.sign of anything heavier being smuggled in. It has become a very
:30:42. > :30:48.familiar part of the story of post- war Britain, unique collections of
:30:48. > :30:53.art amassed at the height of the country's prosperity, sold to make
:30:53. > :30:57.good the consequences of industrial yoisation. There is a museum
:30:57. > :31:07.established by Waterford Wedgwood potry, which a court has ruled can
:31:07. > :31:12.
:31:12. > :31:19.be sold off in -- Wedgwood pottery, which a court ruled can be sold off.
:31:19. > :31:27.To lose a collection of this magnitude is unthinkable.
:31:27. > :31:31.I think it is heart-breaking. There will be lots of other museums
:31:31. > :31:41.and collections that could equally be caught by the same unfortunate
:31:41. > :31:49.
:31:49. > :31:53.This award-winning museum houses the Wedgwood collection, one of
:31:53. > :32:03.Britain's 20 most important cultural assets. But don't take our
:32:03. > :32:05.
:32:05. > :32:10.word for it, that is what UNESCO calls it.
:32:10. > :32:13.Including works by Stubbs and Reynolds, the collection is
:32:13. > :32:17.conservatively valued at �18 million. It is a unique record of
:32:17. > :32:23.what was virtually our first manufacturing industry. Begun three
:32:23. > :32:27.centuries ago by Josiah Wedgwood. This is one of his failures, it
:32:27. > :32:31.must have been heart-breaking when he opened the kiln, to find it had
:32:31. > :32:37.bubbled, blistered, and everything had gone wrong with it. But never
:32:37. > :32:43.mind the odd flawed vase, the whole job lot is 0 set to be broken up
:32:43. > :32:50.and sold off to plug a black hole in Wedgwood's pension fund.
:32:50. > :32:54.museum's specialist it is a nightmare. Inevitably as a curator
:32:55. > :32:58.you look after the possessions for the nation. We believed this
:32:58. > :33:03.collection was safe and in trust, it was a horrible shock to all of
:33:03. > :33:06.us when we heard the judgment. If you broke up that absolutely
:33:06. > :33:14.unbelievable archive and objects, it would never be replaced anywhere
:33:15. > :33:22.in the world. These were the villages, under the
:33:22. > :33:25.folds was clay, and under that coal. How did it come to this? The
:33:25. > :33:28.Wedgwood collection is the product of an industry that once employed
:33:28. > :33:33.thousands. This area of the country became known throughout the world
:33:34. > :33:41.for what it made, the Potteries. is difficult for us to imagine the
:33:41. > :33:46.craze that went into the collecting and purchasing of pottery in the
:33:46. > :33:53.late 1700s. It was almost at epidemic proportions, it was a
:33:53. > :34:01.frenzy, not unlike the launch of an iPhone today. Some of the
:34:01. > :34:06.techniques used at Wedgwood are unchanged since Josiah's time. But
:34:06. > :34:11.the business has endured rockier fortunes, coming close to closure.
:34:11. > :34:15.Workers are worried about what they will have to live on in retirement,
:34:15. > :34:22.the Wedgwood pot badly needs topping up. How will you be fixed
:34:22. > :34:28.in terms of pension and so on? I don't really know, it is going
:34:28. > :34:32.through a bad phase at the moment. But you are signed up to the
:34:32. > :34:37.Wedgwood scheme? Yeah. I just hope the Government takes it on. There
:34:37. > :34:42.are people here quite worried about their pensions, aren't there?
:34:42. > :34:49.are, yes, unfortunately it looked like the museum has taken the brunt
:34:49. > :34:53.of it. What do you make of that? Very sad, that is our history.
:34:53. > :34:57.A court ruled the Wedgwood collection, housed at the museum
:34:57. > :35:06.was an asset of the potteryp can, so it could be sold off to help
:35:06. > :35:12.meet the pensions' shortfall. It is the law of unintended
:35:12. > :35:16.consequences. I think following the very high-profile failures of a
:35:16. > :35:20.number of pension schemes, from Maxwell on wards, you can
:35:20. > :35:23.understand why the Government felled compelled to introduce
:35:24. > :35:28.legislation to protect pensioners. Under what is called "the last man
:35:28. > :35:33.standing" rule, we had a solvent company left standing, and the only
:35:33. > :35:39.way that the pensioners could get the benefit from the Pension
:35:39. > :35:49.Protection Fund, of 90% of their pay, their pensions, was for this
:35:49. > :35:52.
:35:52. > :35:56.company to be put into some form of insolvency. The Wedgwood collection
:35:56. > :36:02.is terrific, and the museum itself is a nice day out. Does any of it
:36:02. > :36:05.amount to much more than a storm in a potteries tea cup? Yes it does,
:36:05. > :36:12.those grappling with the pensions' black hole, say many other
:36:12. > :36:18.companies up and down the country, could tensionly be affected. And
:36:18. > :36:22.minsters are alarmed. I'm sure there will be implications for
:36:22. > :36:27.others. That is why the Attorney General is looking at this so
:36:27. > :36:31.closely. The Wedgwood museum story is a tragedy in itself. But there
:36:32. > :36:35.will be lots of other museums and similar institutions and
:36:35. > :36:41.collections that could equally be caught by the same unfortunate
:36:41. > :36:46.rules. The Attorney General will decide
:36:46. > :36:50.next month whether to approve the sale of the Wedgwood collection.
:36:50. > :36:56.Newsnight understands ministers and arts bodies are urgently seeking
:36:56. > :37:04.funds to save it for the nation. To prevent what many would see as
:37:04. > :37:07.flogging off the family China. With us now in the stud yoi is the
:37:07. > :37:17.historian Tristram Hunt, the Culture Minister, vase vase vase,
:37:17. > :37:20.
:37:20. > :37:24.and the Queen of polka dot pottery, Emma Bridgewater.
:37:24. > :37:28.It is not as if anyone will take a sledgehammer to the pieces, they
:37:28. > :37:32.will be dispersed? It will be right across the world. They could go to
:37:32. > :37:37.Moscow, Dubai, Alabama, and actually what we want is for them
:37:37. > :37:42.to be in Staffordshire. They are part of the history and identity of
:37:42. > :37:45.the potteries of Stoke-on-Trent, of north Staffordshire. To lose these,
:37:45. > :37:49.and this is a museum of international significance, telling
:37:49. > :37:53.the store, not just of the ceramic industry, but through Wedgwood the
:37:53. > :37:56.story of the Industrial Revolution, the French revolution, it is part
:37:56. > :38:01.of the national heritage. How big a deal do you think it is, Emma
:38:01. > :38:08.Bridgewater? I think it is a very big deal, Stoke really needs for
:38:08. > :38:12.that collection to stay nearby. it doesn't? Well some hardy souls
:38:12. > :38:15.make their way to Stoke, we want more visitor numbers. It is clearly
:38:15. > :38:20.a very, very important bit of the offering. There
:38:20. > :38:24.Vase vase vase, how will you save it -- Ed Vaizey, how will you save
:38:24. > :38:29.it? I don't think it is about to be sold off and flogged abroad. We are
:38:29. > :38:33.talking to the Pension Protection Fund, which technically now owns
:38:33. > :38:36.the collection and is an asset of that fund. They don't want to flog
:38:36. > :38:39.it off, we are talking to the administration, he doesn't want to
:38:39. > :38:45.flog it off. We are talking to the company that owns the land where
:38:45. > :38:50.the museum is, they are not going to do something. Nobody will nip
:38:50. > :38:54.down to Sothebys, here is a load of Wedgwood we will sell. We are
:38:54. > :38:59.talking, what we need to do is find out whether the Attorney General
:38:59. > :39:03.will appeal, that is a decision he has to make independently, once we
:39:03. > :39:07.know the position, whether an appeal or the proceedings are
:39:07. > :39:11.concluded. Let's say the collection is still liable for the pension, we
:39:11. > :39:17.need to work oit how much it is worth, agree a price, and -- work
:39:17. > :39:20.out how much it is worth and agree a price and save the collection.
:39:20. > :39:24.I'm absolutely confident the collection will be saved, by
:39:24. > :39:30.combination of public money, lottery money and the public's
:39:30. > :39:36.money, I think they will contribute to save this collection. You won't
:39:36. > :39:39.go any further than that? I don't. Let's talk about why Wedgwood
:39:39. > :39:43.himself and why that particular company is so significant, and what
:39:43. > :39:46.the fate of the company tells us about the state of British
:39:46. > :39:56.manufacturing generally. What was it that was so significant about
:39:56. > :39:57.
:39:57. > :40:02.Wedgwood's operation? I think the analogy with the iPhone was very
:40:02. > :40:09.good. Josiah Wedgwood was the Steve Jobs figure, he combined technical
:40:09. > :40:12.ingenuity, with excellent marketing capacity. He grew this entire
:40:12. > :40:17.market, he developed this middle- class enthusiasm for ceramics, not
:40:17. > :40:23.just in Britain. I know you are a scolar of empire, Jeremy, and you
:40:23. > :40:28.can trace the growth of ceramics and the Bombay houses in Beacon
:40:28. > :40:33.Hill in Boston, Wedgwood sends Staffordshire around the world. He
:40:33. > :40:38.makes the brand made in Staffordshire and Stoke-on-Trent, a
:40:38. > :40:43.global brand, continued up to today. There is no doubt that the last 20,
:40:43. > :40:52.30 years has been a massive crisis in the ceramics industry, we have
:40:52. > :40:56.lost 80% of jobs since the early 1980. As a fellow professional,
:40:56. > :41:00.what does Wedgwood mean to you? is a huge inspiration, I mean
:41:01. > :41:05.Josiah Wedgwood, the first, this have been some good peoples since,
:41:06. > :41:10.but he's a towering figure, an inspiration in design and business.
:41:10. > :41:20.I use that collection, over the years, I have been to visit it a
:41:20. > :41:20.
:41:20. > :41:25.lot, and drawn specific ideas from T --. What sort of ideas?
:41:25. > :41:33.creamwear he developed in the early 19th century, is beautiful, the
:41:33. > :41:38.frog dinner service for Catherine The Great. He was an incredible man.
:41:39. > :41:44.What lessons do you draw from what became of the Wedgwood enterprise,
:41:44. > :41:48.about British manufacturing and British Industry in general?
:41:48. > :41:52.think British manufacturing ebbs and flows, I think we are doing
:41:52. > :41:58.rather well now in manufacturing, we are also doing rather well in of
:41:58. > :42:01.the cas. Crafts are returning -- crafts, and crafts are returning to
:42:01. > :42:04.this, manufacturing is returning to the country. We have as a nation
:42:04. > :42:09.got used to saying we are losing the heritage, but I think it is
:42:09. > :42:14.coming back in a significant way. You are an example in that, before
:42:14. > :42:22.we get ahead of ourselves, what went wrong? It began with the Clone
:42:23. > :42:27.Air Act, that cloned up the air of Stoke-on-Trent, it hit the ceramics
:42:27. > :42:34.industry very hard. The big companies came and became too big
:42:34. > :42:37.and soaked up the smaller ecosystem. They became arrogant and then we
:42:37. > :42:45.had globalisation. How do you compete against low labour and
:42:45. > :42:52.energy costs in China, Indonesia and a lot of companies in
:42:52. > :42:55.Staffordshire outsourced, those that did, failed. Those that stuck
:42:55. > :42:59.in Stoke-on-Trent, Churchill and others, they succeeded because they
:42:59. > :43:04.invested in plant and kit and they looked to the skills of the
:43:04. > :43:10.potteries. They are the ones putting back on jobs. The ones that
:43:10. > :43:15.went abror, and Wedgwood was part of that, lost out. If you produce
:43:15. > :43:24.in Indonesia, it is not a strong brand, if you produce in Stoke-on-
:43:24. > :43:28.Trent it is an A1 brand. So Spod has just come back to -- Spode has
:43:28. > :43:32.just come back because people are asking for it. I think more and
:43:32. > :43:37.more people are recognising it, particularly in this area. I don't
:43:37. > :43:43.want to in any way tread on your toes or understatement your
:43:43. > :43:48.significance, Emma Bridgewater, it is a much smaller operation than
:43:48. > :43:53.previous operation. We employed 200 people in Stoke, and turn over �14
:43:53. > :43:58.million. Let's hear it for SMEs, we are likely to create jobs, right
:43:58. > :44:01.now. What is the realisation that someone like you came to that a big
:44:01. > :44:06.organisation, where I started outsourcing all over the world,
:44:06. > :44:12.failed to spot? Manufacturing is very preoccupying, what we have
:44:12. > :44:16.always done, I didn't come from the area or the industry. I suddenly
:44:16. > :44:19.could see the market was looking one way and the industry the other.
:44:19. > :44:24.We have kept our commercial office outside stoke. I think the
:44:24. > :44:28.important thing is that you remain absolutely clear about your
:44:28. > :44:32.customer and what they want. why you are making it? What they
:44:32. > :44:35.want is a properly made product, until recently they weren't
:44:35. > :44:40.interested in made in England, suddenly, in the last two or three
:44:40. > :44:45.years it is gaining. That is about authenticity, people know when you
:44:45. > :44:50.turn over the cup and saucer, if it says made in England, not designed,
:44:50. > :44:54.or just "England", it is made in Stoke-on-Trent and Staffordshire
:44:54. > :44:59.and it will last. The museum and collection in it is part of the
:44:59. > :45:06.story, it is an inspiration not just for designers but businesses
:45:06. > :45:09.as well. Ed Vaizey you has given an undertaking that the business
:45:09. > :45:13.collective will be preserved. You are opening a big door to all sort
:45:13. > :45:17.of other people saying, you better do the same for us? I will work as
:45:17. > :45:24.hard as I can to keep the collection here, it is unique and
:45:24. > :45:28.part of our heritage, it is a national and internationally
:45:28. > :45:32.significant. I don't think that the door to everyone for saying look at
:45:32. > :45:35.my collection. We have a God history in this country of ensuring
:45:35. > :45:40.that works of exceptional importance are saved for the nation.
:45:40. > :45:50.We have saved the two Titians, part of the national galleries and
:45:50. > :45:51.
:45:51. > :45:56.galleries of Scotland. We used lottery money, and the money saved
:45:56. > :46:02.by galleries. Tomorrow morning's front pages, the
:46:02. > :46:07.Guardian has news there will be a slight tweaking to the way British
:46:07. > :46:11.troops are deployed in Afghanistan. The Guardian says GPs are end sping
:46:11. > :46:16.as little as a day a week for seeing patients because they are
:46:16. > :46:21.setting up the reorganisation. The Times has also news to a slight
:46:21. > :46:25.change to the way troops are used in Afghanistan.
:46:26. > :46:31.An exhibition has opened in Brighton commemorating a death of a