:00:10. > :00:14.Non-existant employers, untracable workers and employees who were
:00:14. > :00:20.actually freelance. Newsnight has evidence of widespread fraud at the
:00:20. > :00:27.jobs agency, A4e, Paul Mason investigates.
:00:27. > :00:31.In this leaked report, evidence of management issues at A4e, why
:00:31. > :00:36.didn't civil servants get to see it. Is it time for the Government to
:00:36. > :00:40.show A4e the door. We will have live reaction.
:00:40. > :00:43.The Toulouse Government ends in a police shootout, but ignites a
:00:43. > :00:47.debate on diversity in France, will it impact their presidential
:00:47. > :00:50.elections. Until now France hasn't seen the
:00:50. > :00:54.kind of home-grown Islamist terrorism that Britain and other
:00:54. > :00:57.European countries have experienced. But some say that the threat here
:00:57. > :01:02.was dangerously underestimated. Does the budget mean that the party
:01:02. > :01:06.is over for Britain's old people. And is that only fair.
:01:06. > :01:13.We will have young guns from Labour and the Conservatives here to slug
:01:13. > :01:18.it out. And...
:01:18. > :01:22.The athletes, the sponsor and an Olympic anthem for the world. DJ,
:01:22. > :01:32.musician and top producer, Mark Ronson, is here to explain how he
:01:32. > :01:35.wants us to feel about Britain and the games.
:01:35. > :01:40.Good evening, the company that has made millions out of welfare-to-
:01:40. > :01:44.work schemes, is at the centre of a new storm tonight, after a leaked
:01:44. > :01:48.report provided evidence apparent fraud. A4e is already under
:01:48. > :01:52.investigation, this report came from its own auditors, who warned
:01:52. > :01:54.in 2009, that numerous cases, where the company had supposedly got
:01:54. > :01:58.people into work and been paid for it by the Government, simply
:01:58. > :02:02.couldn't be backed up with evidence. The Government's position has been
:02:02. > :02:05.that systemic fraud will mean the end of A4e's lucrative contracts.
:02:05. > :02:10.Well our economics editor, Paul Mason, has been investigating.
:02:10. > :02:14.Here's a company that makes money by putting unemployed people into
:02:14. > :02:18.jobs. It sends a man for a job, and after two hours he complains of
:02:18. > :02:22.sore feet, and he leaves, and is never seen again, later somebody
:02:22. > :02:28.signs a form saying he had a job for 13 weeks. The company claims
:02:28. > :02:33.money from the Government for it. This is either fraud, or
:02:33. > :02:37.irregularity, or bad practice. We ought to know what it is.
:02:37. > :02:41.This stuff happens in the best of companies. What the Government is
:02:41. > :02:48.concerned about is whether this was systematic at A4e. This report,
:02:48. > :02:53.that was leaked to us, is full of such examples.
:02:53. > :02:57.And more, what it says is the company's management really were in
:02:57. > :03:06.danger of potentially systematic management failure, to address
:03:06. > :03:10.these problems of fraud and irregularity.
:03:10. > :03:15.Time was, A4e was the poster child for the Government's back to work
:03:15. > :03:23.programme, Mr Cameron made the company's boss his back-to-work
:03:23. > :03:26.adviser. Is she being helpful. helpful. A4e was paid �170 million
:03:26. > :03:30.a year by the Government, for training the unemployed and getting
:03:30. > :03:34.them into long-term jobs. The jobs were supposed to last at least 13
:03:34. > :03:38.weeks, and the employers had to sign a form, confirming the job was
:03:38. > :03:43.real, and reasonably full-time, not just a few hours a week.
:03:43. > :03:48.In July 2009, A4e audited the work of its top 20 recruiters, these
:03:48. > :03:53.were supposed to be the best people, and the auditors only looked at the
:03:53. > :03:56.files of 224 clients. It is just a snapshot, but what they found was
:03:57. > :04:00.disturbing. In offices scattered all over the country, A4e's finest
:04:00. > :04:03.were claiming for putting people into jobs that didn't exist, or
:04:03. > :04:09.didn't qualify for a payment from the Government, and fabricating
:04:09. > :04:16.paperwork to back up the claims. The report details potentially
:04:16. > :04:20.fraudulent, or irregular A4e claims. Three in Edinburgh, three in
:04:20. > :04:24.Newcastle, and six in Bridlington, two in Bootle, two in Manchester,
:04:24. > :04:29.one in Rotherham, and four in Nottingham, three in Norwich and
:04:29. > :04:32.two in Woolich. They could only be sure that everything was in order
:04:32. > :04:38.in two-thirds of the files they looked at. The report itself warns
:04:38. > :04:41.these are not isolated incidents. In Edinburgh, one client walked out
:04:41. > :04:47.after two hours, complaining of sore feet, and never appeared on
:04:47. > :04:52.the potential employer's books. But A4e still claimed the payment. In
:04:52. > :04:56.Bootle, the auditor could find no trace of an unemployed man who was
:04:56. > :05:01.supposed to have found work in Royal Mail, and no trace of the man
:05:01. > :05:06.who employed him. In Bridlington, a cafe owner told the auditor that he
:05:06. > :05:12.never met a man A4e claimed for. He wanted to know why A4e kept asking
:05:12. > :05:16.him to sign blank forms. In Woolich, Sebastien Fournier appeared to have
:05:16. > :05:26.claimed putting a benefits cheat back into a job he was already
:05:26. > :05:29.
:05:29. > :05:32.illegally working from. The auditor Auditors found that recruiters
:05:32. > :05:37.thought there was nothing wrong in filling out forms that should have
:05:37. > :05:40.been completed by the employer. 4% of the claims by best recruiters
:05:40. > :05:46.were potentially fraudulent, found the auditors, and the rest were
:05:46. > :05:50.risky. The auditors were only sure that A4e was entitled to the money
:05:50. > :05:53.they claimed in 74% of cases. This is what the Deputy Prime Minister
:05:53. > :05:57.told parliament next week. We have launched our own audit of the
:05:57. > :06:01.existing contracts that A4e has received from Government. If there
:06:01. > :06:05.is any evidence of systematic abuse, of course we would end all
:06:05. > :06:08.contracts with A4e. Critics will say the report appears
:06:08. > :06:18.to provide the evidence of precisely this.
:06:18. > :06:27.
:06:27. > :06:31.Of course, the majority of claims surveyed, as well as some of A4e's
:06:31. > :06:35.offices, and some of A4e's recruiters, were given a totally
:06:35. > :06:39.clean bill of health, although the report was written in 2009, we
:06:39. > :06:43.found two of those linked with potential fraud still working at
:06:43. > :06:47.A4e rb today. The report, back then, said
:06:47. > :06:51.management information, in relation to the effectiveness of existing
:06:51. > :06:55.controls, is minimal. A4e said the document was not the
:06:55. > :06:59.final draft, and that they had determined that only five claims
:06:59. > :07:05.were irregular, and related to one former employee. And that they had
:07:05. > :07:08.repaid the Government, less than �5,000. A4e wouldn't give us an
:07:08. > :07:13.interview, but an industry spokeswoman told us this.
:07:13. > :07:18.understanding is, that this is a report that A4e itself commissioned,
:07:18. > :07:20.and back in 2009, and it shared the findings of that report with the
:07:20. > :07:24.investigatory branch of the Department for Work and Pensions,
:07:24. > :07:28.and they found that all the appropriate action had been taken.
:07:28. > :07:33.The DWP told us, they never saw the document, they were made aware of
:07:33. > :07:38.the audit, and later received assurances from A4e that it had not
:07:38. > :07:42.uncovered any major issues. Michelle, those statements there,
:07:42. > :07:49.from the company, and from the DWP, do leave a lot of questions
:07:49. > :07:54.unanswered. Why didn't the DWP see this report, it is not a rough
:07:54. > :08:00.traft, it is a thorough report, hours of work by an auditor. And
:08:00. > :08:05.what did A4e do as a result of the problems. Labour started the
:08:06. > :08:12.process and hired them, and the coalition now, what will they do
:08:12. > :08:19.now. To read this report is im%ing yourself in the world of people
:08:19. > :08:25.worried about jobs, and being sent to lap dancing clubs, bars, cafes,
:08:25. > :08:28.low-paid employment, with very little power. They are doing the
:08:29. > :08:32.work under extreme pressure from the recruiters to get them into
:08:32. > :08:37.jobs. The Government doesn't want to come out and play and talk about
:08:37. > :08:39.this, it will have to, because it has a duty of care to the tens of
:08:40. > :08:44.thousands of unemployed people who are right now, today and tomorrow,
:08:44. > :08:48.going through the portals of this company's operation.
:08:48. > :08:51.Let as try and answer some of those questions, no-one from the
:08:51. > :08:55.Department of Work and Pensions, or A4e was available for interview
:08:55. > :08:59.tonight. With us in the studio is Margaret Hodge MP, the chair of the
:08:59. > :09:05.Public Accounts Committee. What did you think, watching Paul's report?
:09:05. > :09:09.I think it is a shocking catalogue of incidents, which suggest it is
:09:09. > :09:13.not contained in one area of the country, and it is not about one
:09:13. > :09:17.little group of employees. It seems to me that it is endemic in the
:09:17. > :09:23.company. I think the company has got questions to answer. I think
:09:23. > :09:27.what I feel is if the company, obvious low, saw this report, if I
:09:27. > :09:31.was a manager in that company, if I really had any moral integrity, I
:09:32. > :09:35.would have shared the entire contents with the department. I
:09:35. > :09:39.would have come clean, and I would have made absolutely clear what I
:09:39. > :09:43.was doing to put things right. This company gets hundreds of millions
:09:43. > :09:48.of pounds of tax-payers' money, your money and my money, and to
:09:48. > :09:52.think that on the back of that, the directors are becoming multi-
:09:52. > :09:57.millionaires, and individuals, who are desperate for jobs, are not
:09:57. > :10:01.being given a good service, it is not acceptable. There is clearly
:10:01. > :10:04.some eye-opening example, the auditors turning up to the
:10:04. > :10:10.employers' premises and they don't exist. Employers being asked to
:10:10. > :10:15.fill out blank forms by A4e employees. The question key to this
:10:15. > :10:20.from what the Government has said, the question of systemic fraud,
:10:20. > :10:24.from what you have seen today, do you think there is systemic fraud?
:10:24. > :10:27.I have no doubt, after reading the report, this is a systemic issue
:10:27. > :10:32.throughout the company. It was my committee that first highlighted
:10:32. > :10:35.the problems in A4e. Since we have discussed it, I have had over 100
:10:35. > :10:40.e-mails from individuals, either clients or people who have worked
:10:40. > :10:46.there. What comes out to me out of this, is I think the company
:10:46. > :10:50.appears to have been really greedy. You see that a little bit in Emma
:10:50. > :10:54.Harrisson paying herself a dividend of �8.6 million. I think there is a
:10:54. > :10:57.bullying culture there. In that culture people were cutting corners
:10:57. > :11:00.and there was cheating going on. From the point of view of the
:11:00. > :11:04.Government. The Government has consistently said that if there is
:11:05. > :11:08.evidence of systemic fraud, that they would stop the contract.
:11:08. > :11:11.that what you think should happen right now, today, on the basis of
:11:11. > :11:16.this? I have been saying for some time, that I think those contracts
:11:16. > :11:20.should be suspended. I wrote today to the permanent secretary in the
:11:20. > :11:25.DWP, asking him, yet again, to suspend the contracts with A4e. He
:11:25. > :11:30.has not done so. I think this has a wider impact, because if we don't
:11:30. > :11:35.sort this out, everybody will lose trust in the system as a whole.
:11:35. > :11:39.This is a new programme, there is literally hundreds of millions of
:11:39. > :11:43.pounds being put into the private sector. If theren't proper
:11:43. > :11:48.transparency and openness and confidence, we will lose trust in
:11:48. > :11:52.an absolutely key programme to get people back into work. Both the DWP
:11:52. > :11:57.and the statement for A4e, the point they are making, is both seem
:11:57. > :12:00.to think this is historic, the report came in 2009, the DWP says
:12:00. > :12:05.it has its own investigations, it is looking into this right now, and
:12:05. > :12:08.will come to its own conclusions. That honestly misses the point,
:12:08. > :12:11.trying to put the claim on what happened before the general
:12:11. > :12:16.election is silly. Do you think that something magically happened
:12:16. > :12:23.on the day of the general election. That changed the culture of this
:12:23. > :12:26.company? I don't. You think it is happening today? Among the 100 e-
:12:26. > :12:30.mails and letters I have had, there are people who are complaining
:12:30. > :12:34.about the work programme. We know that the DWP is investigating, and
:12:35. > :12:39.the police are investigating allegations around the present work
:12:39. > :12:44.programme. I think what is a really important point, the work programme
:12:44. > :12:50.is a new programme. It is going to be run by a whole lot of private
:12:50. > :12:53.providers. In a sort of, where there is not going to be very
:12:53. > :12:58.detailed vigilance of how they spend the money. I think it is
:12:58. > :13:02.hugely important, it is tax-payers' money, this is hugely important.
:13:02. > :13:05.There is proper transparency and openness, so you and I can be
:13:05. > :13:09.secure in the knowledge that the hundreds of millions is properly
:13:09. > :13:13.spent. It is a huge amount of money, briefly, if you can, A4e are also
:13:13. > :13:16.saying this dates back to a paper- based system they had in the past,
:13:16. > :13:20.and the new electronic controls they have would not allow it to
:13:20. > :13:24.happen today? If A4e had been completely open, and shared this
:13:24. > :13:27.report with the Government, I think that would have been one thing. I
:13:27. > :13:31.think any moral employer would have done that. If the Government knew
:13:31. > :13:35.about this report, and knew about the culture in this organisation,
:13:35. > :13:39.I'm extremely surprised that they thought that this was an
:13:39. > :13:43.appropriate company with whom they should be doing business, using our
:13:43. > :13:46.money. Also joining us tonight is Laim
:13:46. > :13:49.Byrne, the shadow Work and Pensions spokesman. If you were in
:13:49. > :13:53.Government today, what would you be doing about this report? I think I
:13:53. > :13:57.would be coming forward to parliament with some answers to
:13:57. > :14:03.some pretty basic questions. First and most important is, did
:14:03. > :14:07.ministers know about this report, when they handed A4e a �440 million
:14:07. > :14:09.new contract, to run the work programme. These new work programme
:14:10. > :14:14.contracts are the biggest payment by results contracts, pretty much
:14:14. > :14:18.in the world. They involve a huge sum of public money. And crucially,
:14:18. > :14:22.they are aimed at solving, what is one of the biggest crises
:14:23. > :14:27.confronting our country, which is the unemployment crisis. Ministers
:14:27. > :14:30.have to come forward and say did they know about this report when
:14:30. > :14:34.they handed out the contracts, if not, why not. Of course the people
:14:34. > :14:38.who are actually in power at the time that this report was written
:14:38. > :14:42.in July 2009 was the Labour Government. You were in Government
:14:42. > :14:45.at the time, it happened on your watch? Absolutely, our counter
:14:45. > :14:49.fraud checks happened to surface this problem, that is why a year or
:14:49. > :14:52.two after this report was reduced, someone was not only charged but
:14:52. > :14:55.convicted for fraud. That shows the checks were in place and working.
:14:55. > :14:59.The key now is whether the checks are in place on the big new
:14:59. > :15:01.contract, the work programme. That is why we need to know, did the
:15:01. > :15:04.ministers know about the report when they signed off on the
:15:04. > :15:10.contracts, and secondly, have they got the right checks in place today.
:15:10. > :15:14.We heard a few weeks ago the incredible news that the
:15:14. > :15:18.Government's counter fraud system for the woj programme isn't
:15:18. > :15:22.actually in place -- work programme isn't actually in place. If the
:15:22. > :15:25.checks were in place when you were in power they can't have been that
:15:25. > :15:29.good. We are talking about a geographical spread of these
:15:29. > :15:32.allegations across the country, six in Bridlington, four in Edinburgh,
:15:32. > :15:37.two in Woolich, the list goes on and on. You didn't have that good a
:15:37. > :15:41.system in place, did you? The fraud was surfaced, and someone was
:15:41. > :15:43.charged and convicted for it. The question now, as I say, is did
:15:43. > :15:48.ministers know about the report when they signed off on a massive
:15:48. > :15:51.new contract, and what checks have they now got in place, in order to
:15:51. > :15:56.ensure that the lessons have been learned and this is not happening
:15:56. > :15:59.again. Ministers have said, if they do find evidence of systemic fraud
:15:59. > :16:02.they will suspend the contracts. They are looking at the evidence,
:16:02. > :16:06.looking at the evidence that we have presented tonight, do you
:16:06. > :16:12.believe, as Margaret Hodge believes, that this is a systemic failure in
:16:12. > :16:16.systemic fraud? I think the onus is now on A4e and ministers, to
:16:16. > :16:21.satisfy parliament, and tax-payers, that this has come to an end. And
:16:21. > :16:24.that there isn't the same problem on this massive new contract in the
:16:24. > :16:27.work programme. Ministers like to boast it is what they call a black
:16:27. > :16:32.box contract, that means it is pretty hard to know what is going
:16:32. > :16:36.on inside, there is a much bigger incentive on companies to just get
:16:36. > :16:40.people into jobs, or toe claim that they have got people into jobs,
:16:40. > :16:44.that is the only way now they get paid. If tu like, the stakes are
:16:44. > :16:48.much higher for companies. The -- if you like the stakes are much
:16:48. > :16:51.higher for companies, the fraud is much greater and the checks should
:16:51. > :16:55.be tougher. I'm worried that the DWP has had to confess that the
:16:55. > :16:57.checks for the work programme won't be in place until the end of April.
:16:57. > :17:01.Margaret Hodge wants the contracts pulled now, because she doesn't
:17:01. > :17:05.believe this is a fit recipient of public money, are you making the
:17:05. > :17:09.same call tonight or not? taking slightly different position,
:17:09. > :17:13.I think that ministers need to come forward to parliament, very, very
:17:13. > :17:17.urgently now, and say did they know about this report when they awarded
:17:17. > :17:21.the contracts, that is a matter of enormous public concern, and second,
:17:21. > :17:24.what is the result of their incertainly investigation. We know
:17:24. > :17:28.there isn't a checking system in place, because they have to build
:17:28. > :17:34.it. We need to know now what their investigation is showing. This is a
:17:34. > :17:37.matter of massive public concern. President Nicolas Sarkozy has
:17:37. > :17:42.appealed for national unity in France, after the French Muslim
:17:42. > :17:45.responsible for the deaths of seven people in Toulouse, was killed in a
:17:45. > :17:50.police shootout, after a long siege. France has the largest Muslim
:17:50. > :17:54.minority in Europe. Debates about integration have become
:17:54. > :17:56.increasingly strident in recent years. It is also in the midst of a
:17:56. > :18:03.presidential election, with President Sarkozy trailing in the
:18:03. > :18:07.polls. First of all, here in Toulouse they
:18:07. > :18:10.are simply in enormous relief that the gunman, killed in the street
:18:10. > :18:14.behind me, is no longer at large. That is particularly because he
:18:14. > :18:18.warned police, over the last couple of days, that he had already
:18:19. > :18:22.identified his next victims. But along with that, questions are
:18:22. > :18:25.already beginning to be asked. Questions, first of all, about
:18:25. > :18:29.whether all the warning signs about the killer had been picked up on,
:18:29. > :18:34.and we have heard reports, for example, tonight, unconfirmed, that
:18:34. > :18:41.the Americans had already put him on their no-fly list. There are
:18:41. > :18:46.also questions being asked about the radicalisation of French youth,
:18:46. > :18:51.about immigration, and those are questions about which, on which the
:18:51. > :18:54.far right, the National Front, can only make political capital.
:18:54. > :18:58.Questions which President Sarkozy and the other mainstream
:18:58. > :19:04.politicians will have to answer. But first, this is how the events
:19:04. > :19:09.unfolded today. The police had been surrounding the block of flats in a
:19:09. > :19:13.quiet residential area of Toulouse, since early yesterday morning.
:19:13. > :19:16.They set off explosions throughout last night. In an attempt to
:19:16. > :19:23.exhaust Mohammed Merah and force him out.
:19:23. > :19:26.But the final drama didn't come until 10.30am.
:19:26. > :19:30.(gunfire) Heavy gunfire rang out through the evacuated streets, soon
:19:30. > :19:36.it was revealed how the siege had ended. Police had stormed the flat,
:19:36. > :19:43.but a door and window, after a six- hour silence from Merah, and were
:19:43. > :19:48.met with gunfire. TRANSLATION: killer came out of the bathroom, he
:19:48. > :19:52.was shooting violently, the shots were frequent and severe, even
:19:52. > :19:56.those used to seeing such things, said they weren't used to seeing
:19:56. > :20:00.such ferocity. The policemen defended themselves, but in the end
:20:00. > :20:03.Mohammed Merah jumped through the window, with one weapon in his hand,
:20:03. > :20:07.still shooting. He was found dead on the ground. Police moved in
:20:07. > :20:10.after they heard Mohammed Merah was planning to kill another soldier.
:20:10. > :20:18.It appeared he was already responsible for seven deaths.
:20:18. > :20:23.On March 11th, a paratrooper was shot dead in Toulouse, on March
:20:23. > :20:27.15th two more paratroopers were killed. On March 19th, three
:20:27. > :20:32.children at a Jewish school in Toulouse, and a rabbi were gunned
:20:32. > :20:36.down. But today, after the death of the gunman on this street, many
:20:36. > :20:40.questions are still unanswered. Until now, France hasn't seen the
:20:40. > :20:44.kind of home-grown Islamist terrorism that Britain and other
:20:44. > :20:50.European countries have experienced. But some say that the threat here
:20:50. > :20:53.was dangerously underestimated. There is particular concern that
:20:53. > :20:56.the Secret Services were apparently tracking the killer for several
:20:56. > :21:01.years, but didn't consider him a risk.
:21:01. > :21:06.Merah, pictured here, in an internet video, was a French
:21:06. > :21:11.citizen of Algerian background, who travelled twice to Afghanistan and
:21:11. > :21:16.Pakistan to train with Al-Qaeda fighters. He claimed to belong to
:21:16. > :21:20.Al-Qaeda. French prosecutors believe he was a Lone Wolf, acting
:21:20. > :21:24.without acomplises. TRANSLATION: This is someone who we can't link
:21:24. > :21:29.to a known organisation or structure. This is someone who
:21:29. > :21:32.doesn't generate attention, even during the period when he committed
:21:32. > :21:36.crimes. It was clearly a solitary person, who remained closed up at
:21:36. > :21:43.home and tied up with visions and scenes of decaptations. That's his
:21:43. > :21:48.profile. Merah grew up in these streets, in the poor district. His
:21:48. > :21:52.friends were other young men like these, from north African families.
:21:52. > :21:58.Young men who today didn't want to talk to journalists, rocks were
:21:58. > :22:02.thrown at us when we tried to film here, some think France should
:22:02. > :22:04.learn a lesson from Merah's story. TRANSLATION: It is a problem of
:22:04. > :22:08.communication between the generations and between native
:22:08. > :22:12.French people and those who have come from abroad. People who
:22:13. > :22:17.suffered racism, both at school and in work. One politician, quick to
:22:17. > :22:21.draw conclusions today, was the leader of the far night National
:22:21. > :22:25.Front, Jean-Marie Le Pen, she said poor suburbs were being surrendered
:22:25. > :22:29.to Islamic radicals. But other contenders in the upcoming
:22:29. > :22:36.presidential elections have been much more restrained. The two main
:22:36. > :22:41.candidates, President Sarkozy and his socialist challenger, Francois
:22:41. > :22:45.Allende, suspended their campaigns this week, now the politicicing
:22:45. > :22:50.will continue in ernest. Many people that Mr Sarkozy has done
:22:50. > :22:53.himself nothing but good by playing the dignified President this week,
:22:53. > :22:57.and avoiding any accusations he was trying to profit from events.
:22:57. > :23:00.Tonight Mr Sarkozy was already back on the stump, he told an
:23:00. > :23:05.enthusiastic audience in Strasbourg, that there was nothing in French
:23:05. > :23:10.politics or society to explain this month's killings. TRANSLATION:
:23:10. > :23:15.today I want to say that these crimes were not the act of a madman,
:23:15. > :23:23.because a madman is irresponsible. These were crimes committed by a
:23:23. > :23:26.monster. A fanatic. Just hours after Mohammed Merah's
:23:26. > :23:31.death, it is too soon to know if France will agree with the
:23:31. > :23:38.President. The coming four weeks of campaigning will now coincide with
:23:38. > :23:44.a completely unexpected period of national soul searching.
:23:44. > :23:48.Let as talk about what this means for France. In Paris now is the
:23:48. > :23:52.political commentator, Agnes Poirier. It has been a really
:23:52. > :23:56.dramatic couple of days. How big a moment do you think this is for
:23:56. > :24:03.France? It is a big moment, perhaps because the killer was French. He
:24:03. > :24:08.was a French national, killing his compatriots, on distorted religious
:24:08. > :24:12.grounds. But still, religious grounds.
:24:12. > :24:18.It has been very interesting being both in London, as I have been, and
:24:18. > :24:24.in France during those three days. The view in France so far has been
:24:24. > :24:27.to avoid certain issues, certain questions. The representatives of
:24:27. > :24:33.the Muslim Council of France decided to say that Mohammed Merah
:24:33. > :24:38.didn't belong to us, it wasn't one of us, it wasn't Muslim as far as
:24:38. > :24:43.they were concerned. You know, a lot of people haven't felt they
:24:43. > :24:47.could say that he was an Islamist. Mohammed Merah does represent a
:24:47. > :24:51.very distorted and perverted version of Islam, but one that
:24:52. > :24:55.needs to be addressed, not only by French Intelligence Services, but
:24:55. > :25:00.also by the French Muslim community. In what way would you want to see
:25:00. > :25:04.it addressed, what actually needs to change in practical terms?
:25:04. > :25:14.it is the responsibility, I guess, of religious authorities, to make
:25:14. > :25:16.
:25:16. > :25:24.sure that only moderate Islam is taught in school, and preached in
:25:24. > :25:28.mosques. And Salafists are not allowed to impose their norm, and
:25:29. > :25:35.as the specialist of the Arab world would say, it is very important
:25:35. > :25:40.that Imans in French mosques do emphasise the belonging to the
:25:40. > :25:43.national community. Because all these people were French. And they
:25:43. > :25:48.still were killed. You know there is a wealth of information, there
:25:48. > :25:51.is a wealth of influence out there, far beyond what Imams in France can
:25:51. > :26:01.or should be speeching, what about the responsibility of the French
:26:01. > :26:01.
:26:02. > :26:05.said in this. I What in terms of the French state can be done in
:26:05. > :26:08.national policy rather than just the religious authorities? I think
:26:08. > :26:15.it is a collective responsibility that we should actually start
:26:15. > :26:18.addressing, really. You know, the Republic is a wonderful
:26:18. > :26:25.construction, but has been slight low abandoned by politicians in the
:26:25. > :26:30.last 25 years. You know, it is not only Nicolas Sarkozy's devisive
:26:30. > :26:35.policies of the last five years, we are talking about 25 years of
:26:36. > :26:41.leaving poor suburbs becoming no-go zones for the police. It is a
:26:41. > :26:49.question of education, it is a question on the ground for
:26:49. > :26:57.religious authorities to make sure that they teach moderate Islam. It
:26:57. > :27:02.is collective problem I think. Let's bring in the author of How To
:27:02. > :27:05.Be French, Alan Wiley, do you agree with Agnes Poirier that this is a
:27:05. > :27:13.moment for a major re-think, she says policies have been going wrong
:27:13. > :27:19.for 25 years in France? Well, no I don't agree. This man was a fan at
:27:19. > :27:23.that timeic, a madman, who has -- fanatic, a madman, he has attacked
:27:23. > :27:28.not just Jews, but Muslims and black. The soldiers were not white,
:27:28. > :27:34.they were black and Arabs. He hated the idea that Arabs, or black,
:27:34. > :27:38.could be part of the French army. That French institutions could
:27:38. > :27:48.equal low people from all regions, people from all faiths, all colours,
:27:48. > :27:54.that is what he hated the most. I think he didn't get teaching in
:27:54. > :27:58.France, he got his teaching in Afghanistan, and in Pakistan.
:27:58. > :28:03.Obviously we don't know for sure, there is a suggestion that he has
:28:03. > :28:09.been radicalised in France, perhaps, during his imprisonment. No, no, no.
:28:09. > :28:17.No, no, no, no. He was radicalised outside of
:28:17. > :28:21.France, he was a madman, he tried to commit a crime in 2008. He was
:28:21. > :28:25.in a psychiatric hospital, the doctor asked him to be followed by
:28:25. > :28:28.doctors and he was not followed. So it is a failure of our medical and
:28:28. > :28:38.Secret Service. So it is an isolated case, and
:28:38. > :28:42.there is no need for any kind of re-think by the French state?
:28:42. > :28:48.course there is a need for a re- think. I think the French
:28:48. > :28:53.politicians and public have reacted very well in the last two days. By
:28:53. > :28:59.showing unity behind the institutions, the army, for example,
:28:59. > :29:04.who gather all French from all parts the country. And also the
:29:04. > :29:11.Jews, who can attend in our system, religious school, still being
:29:11. > :29:18.French. This guy has attacked the French model of integration, which
:29:18. > :29:23.is based on institutions that favour unity and equality, and
:29:23. > :29:32.statement accept diversity. I think it was great in the last --
:29:32. > :29:38.estimate accept -- I think it was great in the last fou days that
:29:38. > :29:42.people all come together and accept we are together. When hundreds of
:29:42. > :29:45.Norwegians were killed last summer, the Prime Minister of Norway said
:29:45. > :29:49.he wanted us to change what we are, and we are going to continue to
:29:49. > :29:58.stay what we are. And it is, I think, the same thing for the
:29:58. > :30:03.French to do. Some budget analysis, despite not
:30:03. > :30:12.particularly hitting grannies, it seems more grandfathers are
:30:12. > :30:15.actually affected and not actual -- actually with the granny tax out of
:30:15. > :30:20.the budget. Do the figures the Chancellor read out confidently
:30:20. > :30:24.actually add up. Today it was the turn of the Institute of Fiscal
:30:25. > :30:30.studies to give its take on the budget, a vital calendar event for
:30:30. > :30:34.those working out the confusing budget numbers. I'm not sure not
:30:34. > :30:39.for you. Did the pensioners, in reality, get a hard deal? Looking
:30:39. > :30:44.at this morning's papers, this was an unprecedented generational
:30:44. > :30:47.mugging on the pensions, the IFS described the change as modest.
:30:47. > :30:52.They had some rather interesting graphics to back up what they had
:30:52. > :30:56.to say. If we look at what they produced, the chart they produced.
:30:56. > :31:02.It shows, and we see behind you there, if we look at who got what
:31:02. > :31:06.out of this budget, well, we see that households with children on
:31:06. > :31:10.the left there did is it rather well out of this budget. Pensioner
:31:10. > :31:14.households in the middle there did rather badly out of it, households
:31:14. > :31:18.without children did rather well again. The Government say that is
:31:18. > :31:22.misleading, we have to take in the round all the changes since 2010,
:31:22. > :31:27.when the Government came in. If we plot all of that on the chart, it
:31:27. > :31:32.shows the big losers out of the budget, out of those changes since
:31:32. > :31:35.2010, if we look behind you, is households with children, nearly 4%
:31:35. > :31:39.of their income has disappeared, where as pensioner households have
:31:39. > :31:43.done rather better. What about the number crunching on
:31:43. > :31:47.the 50p tax rate, there is suggestion that it was scrapped
:31:47. > :31:51.because it didn't raise thatch money at all? On that, I think the
:31:51. > :31:54.Chancellor has -- that much money at all? On that, I think the
:31:54. > :31:58.Chancellor has less support from the IFS. Trying to maximise the
:31:58. > :32:03.amount you take is very difficult, the IFS say it is highly
:32:03. > :32:08.speculative, it is difficult to find the figures. They say that on
:32:08. > :32:15.the HMRC's own figures, there is a 30% chance that it could be lower
:32:16. > :32:20.than 30p in the pound. There is a 30% chance it could be higher than
:32:20. > :32:24.75p in the pound. The inference you draw from that is the Chancellor
:32:24. > :32:27.picked 45p because he wished that to be the number. There is another
:32:27. > :32:31.point raised about that, they say the Chancellor has given up some
:32:31. > :32:39.certain streams of revenue, from raising the allowances, and looked
:32:39. > :32:43.for some places to make up for it, in other streams of revenue that
:32:43. > :32:47.were less certain, how many hot chicken people will buy in future
:32:47. > :32:53.and hot pies, it is not clear. many people now will be paying
:32:53. > :32:58.higher rate tax? An interesting fact from the IFS, they have
:32:58. > :33:05.created 325,000 higher rate tax- payers, this is the 40p rate. By
:33:05. > :33:13.2014, 15% of tax-payers will be paying a higher rate. They contrast
:33:13. > :33:19.that with 1978- 69, when it was only 3% of tax-payers. To dissect
:33:19. > :33:25.it with me are my guests. Why is it that pensioners took the
:33:25. > :33:30.hit, was it just their turn? Well, the impulse behind why this was
:33:30. > :33:37.brought in is because there is a very sharp rise that David was just
:33:37. > :33:41.talking about, in the amount that everybody is going to be earning in
:33:41. > :33:48.their working age before they pay tax at all. That is rising sharply.
:33:48. > :33:52.He took the decision to hold steady the age-related part, and the
:33:52. > :33:57.threshold that all of us have, the amount all of us who are working
:33:57. > :34:00.can earn before they pay tax, is rising to meet it. That is a great
:34:00. > :34:03.simplification. Let me explain one important part of why this
:34:03. > :34:08.simplification is important. are not denying they are being hit,
:34:08. > :34:13.I'm just asking why it was, what was the thinking behind making that
:34:13. > :34:17.particular choice? Because I do take dispute with the premise of
:34:17. > :34:21.your question. Because actually there is no cash losers. It is
:34:21. > :34:26.important for people watching the programme, especially if they are
:34:26. > :34:30.pensioners, to know, there is no tax rise on them. It is just that a
:34:30. > :34:36.future increase in the threshold won't be happening, because it will
:34:36. > :34:41.be frozen. 3.2 million pensioners didn't claim this increase extra
:34:41. > :34:46.allowance that is being phased out, because it is so complicated. I
:34:46. > :34:49.think that a simple letter system, that is the same for everybody, --
:34:49. > :34:52.simpler system, as a long-term goal, that is the same for everybody is a
:34:52. > :34:58.good thing. This Government has done a huge amount for pension erbs
:34:58. > :35:02.and does support pensioners. If you think that is a simple explanation
:35:02. > :35:06.people might have to look again. We have been saying for a long time
:35:06. > :35:09.that the Government is out-of-touch. You can't fool people all of the
:35:09. > :35:14.time, this was one of those budget changes which was very clear about
:35:14. > :35:18.the Chancellor's priorities, he priority yoised millionaires over
:35:18. > :35:27.pensioners, he -- prioritised millionaires over pensioners. He
:35:27. > :35:31.raided some hard earned money of pensioners and given a � 14 --
:35:31. > :35:34.14,000 millionaires a tax cut of money each. That is an incredible
:35:34. > :35:38.set of priorities for somebody who said we are all in it together. The
:35:38. > :35:41.key thing to remember here is this is a chipping away of the support
:35:41. > :35:46.we should have in society for pensioners. We have VAT going up to
:35:46. > :35:50.20%, pensioners, of course, lost the top-up on the winter allowance,
:35:50. > :35:53.they lost their free swimming, the concessionary coach travel. A lot
:35:53. > :36:00.of pensioners up and down the country will be asking what is next.
:36:00. > :36:03.Is this the thin end of the wedge. The IFS has said it is a modest
:36:04. > :36:08.change, you can look at it in a cumulative way? We know about the
:36:08. > :36:13.cliff edge, as it was called in the child benefit arrangements, there
:36:13. > :36:18.is a very personishious edge here, if you were born on the wrong side
:36:18. > :36:25.of a day in April 1948, the hit to you will be upwards of �3020, this
:36:25. > :36:28.is a significant judgment. When -- �320, it is a significant judgment.
:36:28. > :36:32.He is excluding the cost of inflation. The cost of living is
:36:32. > :36:42.extremely high, the basic state pension should have IRA flexion for
:36:42. > :36:42.
:36:42. > :36:46.inflation in it, but pension flexion for inflation in it, but
:36:46. > :36:51.pensioners up and down the country will be finding it difficult.
:36:51. > :36:54.People will not take it from a Labour spokesman who ran Gordon
:36:54. > :37:02.Brown's leadership. We remember the 10p tax rate that hit pensioners in
:37:02. > :37:06.the pocket, we remember the 75p pension rise, instead, in two weeks
:37:06. > :37:10.time, pensioners are getting more than �5 a week increase in the
:37:10. > :37:14.pension, which is the biggest ever. Because inflation is so high.
:37:14. > :37:17.won't take this about pensioners, you have seen from the chart how
:37:17. > :37:25.pensioners have done well, relative to other groups under this
:37:25. > :37:30.Government, and that is because we support pensioners. Let me give you
:37:30. > :37:36.examples, that �5 a week rise, also the new pension being brought in at
:37:36. > :37:41.around �140 a woke, to remove means testing -- a week, to remove means
:37:41. > :37:44.testing. You took away the top-up. That was put in for one year before
:37:44. > :37:50.the election by Gordon Brown and it was programmed to come out. Let's
:37:50. > :37:54.bring up the graph once again, the numbers speak for themselves. If
:37:54. > :37:57.you have a look at this particular graph, Matthew, hopefully we will
:37:57. > :38:02.get in just a second. It is somewhere, but essentially, if you
:38:02. > :38:06.look at the winners and the losers, on the winning side of it, it is
:38:06. > :38:10.the working families with or without children who are on that
:38:10. > :38:13.side of it, the pensioners are on the minor side of it. You have to
:38:13. > :38:17.look in context what the Government has done for pensioners, you can
:38:17. > :38:21.see that everybody, of course, has had to pay some of the debts that
:38:21. > :38:25.Labour brought in. You can see in the red all of those bars are red
:38:25. > :38:30.because everybody's having to take a hit for the massive debts this
:38:30. > :38:34.country was left with. A graph like this doesn't stand because you have
:38:34. > :38:40.to look at everything cumulatively. The red bars rather than the blue
:38:40. > :38:42.ones, which says what is this coalition Government doing for
:38:42. > :38:46.pensioner households, they are relatively protected. It is really
:38:47. > :38:51.important to mention this, the chalet a whole load of information
:38:51. > :38:53.out before the actual budget statement -- Chancellor let a whole
:38:53. > :38:58.load of information out before the budget statement, and he didn't
:38:58. > :39:02.have the courage to leak this mit on pensioners. If you think you can
:39:02. > :39:06.-- hit on pensioners. If you think you can put it in cash or real
:39:06. > :39:09.terms. This is the Chancellor deciding to give a tax cut to
:39:09. > :39:14.millionaires funded by the hit on pensioners. Pensioners who have
:39:14. > :39:19.been reflected in the tax system since Churchill introduced this
:39:19. > :39:24.age-related allowance back in 1925, this is a big mistake on your
:39:24. > :39:28.behalf. We will vote against it when it comes to parliament. Will
:39:28. > :39:32.you reintroduce your things. would love to make a commitment,
:39:32. > :39:38.who knows what other things they will cut away at before 2015. There
:39:38. > :39:45.is a chipping away. When we get to 2015, we will address it in the
:39:45. > :39:48.manifesto. Was it in your manifesto. Let me just make this point. We
:39:48. > :39:51.have heard empty opposition from Labour, they are complaining they
:39:51. > :39:55.haven't anything positive to say, and the support for pensioners from
:39:56. > :40:01.the record rise in the state pension from this Government, is
:40:01. > :40:06.showing that we are on pensioners' side.
:40:06. > :40:12.Rarely has so much fanfare greeted a little bit of blue lycra, the
:40:12. > :40:17.official kit for British Olympic hopefuls was unveiled today, work
:40:17. > :40:23.of Stella McCartney for Adidas. There are others with own related
:40:23. > :40:28.products, Coca-Cola have funded Anwar them produced by award
:40:28. > :40:33.winning producer DJ Mark Ronson. First we look at how to capture the
:40:33. > :40:37.sound of an Olympic city. The eyes of the world will be on us
:40:37. > :40:43.this summer. So will their ears.
:40:43. > :40:47.Looking after the music, it is hip, youngish, some time Londoner, Mark
:40:47. > :40:55.Ronson. His tune for the Olympics can be considered part of a PR
:40:55. > :40:59.opportunity. To offer a new take on brand Britain. Some 15 years after
:40:59. > :41:05.called cool Britannia. Although the keen-eyed amongst you may also
:41:06. > :41:15.notice another brand is also on view here.
:41:16. > :41:18.
:41:18. > :41:21.It is almost like an orchestra. Peron's record is part inspiration,
:41:22. > :41:26.part perspiration. The producer travelled the world, sampling the
:41:26. > :41:35.noises made by elite athletes, their strides and their growns,
:41:35. > :41:41.including our own big hope Darius Knight. I realised that one of the
:41:41. > :41:47.cool things Darius does is make these grunts, it reminded me
:41:47. > :41:53.instantly of, you know how James Brown, somebody like a really
:41:53. > :41:58.precussive singer would grunt on their track.
:41:58. > :42:02.Like Peron, other stellar qul turl figures have been mingling with
:42:02. > :42:06.young limb krb cultural figures have been lingering with young
:42:06. > :42:10.athletes, running up new threads for them. It is nothing I have
:42:10. > :42:14.worked on before, I'm working with athletes and the first questions I
:42:14. > :42:18.have are what can I do for you. If you are performing and you feel you
:42:18. > :42:21.look better, do you feel it enhances your performance. You get
:42:21. > :42:25.so many different answers to so many different questions. It is
:42:25. > :42:32.really different, and the technology is completely different.
:42:32. > :42:37.What are Peron's credentials to be banging the drum for Brand -- Mark
:42:37. > :42:43.Ronson's credentials for banging the drum for Brand Britain at the
:42:43. > :42:49.moment. He has worked with Adele and the late Amy Winehouse. Mark
:42:49. > :42:52.Ronson's big retro sound, recalling the hey day of stacks and Motown
:42:52. > :42:58.records, helped to make her an international star, and helped to
:42:58. > :43:03.confirm his own reputation. Mark Ronson has got London roots,
:43:04. > :43:08.he shot this video in the capital. So does it matter that his new
:43:08. > :43:18.Olympics anthem will be used to sell a fizzy drink for one of the
:43:18. > :43:21.
:43:21. > :43:25.sponsors of the games. The producer certainly has the musical chops.
:43:26. > :43:33.Though we at Newsnight privately wonder if his new tune could
:43:34. > :43:42.possibly eclipse this golden classic.
:43:42. > :43:49.A great favourite with Jeremy, incidently, it is Prog Rockers
:43:49. > :43:56.Emmerson Lake and scam Palmer at the Montreal venue. A monster slab
:43:56. > :43:59.of olympian rock. Mark Ronson is here in the studio.
:43:59. > :44:02.How did you approach this particular project when it first
:44:02. > :44:05.came to you, what did you think the message you wanted to deliver out
:44:05. > :44:09.of the games would be? The first thing they came to me and said the
:44:10. > :44:14.concept was to go around the world recording these Olympic athletes,
:44:14. > :44:19.and recording the sound of sports, to turn into a track. Which I like
:44:19. > :44:23.a challenge, you know at the outset of a project. That was it. Being a
:44:23. > :44:27.song for London 2012, this is the city I was born in and is the city
:44:27. > :44:30.I live. It is a huge responsibility. You don't want to make something
:44:30. > :44:34.that is bad because you are representing a city, it is
:44:35. > :44:39.embarrassing for everyone. So there was the pressure of both of those
:44:39. > :44:44.things, the pressure of making the track on the sound of sports, and
:44:44. > :44:49.making something great that, if it is good, it can stay in the history
:44:49. > :44:53.of great London songs, things like London Calling, or whatever you
:44:53. > :44:59.want to choose. Is there a message you were trying to get across about
:44:59. > :45:04.London as a city, and perhaps about Britain, or about Britishness?
:45:04. > :45:09.definitely. KatyB, who wrote the lyrics, and is the singer on the
:45:09. > :45:12.track, she encapsulates the sound of young London more than I do,
:45:12. > :45:16.she's 21, she is closer to it. There is something about her when
:45:16. > :45:20.she opens her mouth and talks about down by the river, she doesn't need
:45:20. > :45:25.to say the Thames for you to know what she's talking about. That was
:45:25. > :45:28.the point in this song, to make it feel like London, to make it feel
:45:28. > :45:32.like something that was part of the Olympic Games, without saying,
:45:32. > :45:39.we're winning, we are all getting the gold, you know we're all
:45:39. > :45:44.running up to Big Ben today. I think that was definitely testament
:45:44. > :45:48.to Katy and how great she is an artist, her voice and what she
:45:48. > :45:52.embodies, it is there in the song. Did you want to get back to the
:45:52. > :45:58.cool Britannia days, the hey day of Britain feeling like it was at the
:45:58. > :46:02.cutting edge of something in music or fashion or arts? I think that in
:46:02. > :46:09.some ways, you know, and I have to say it started probably about five
:46:09. > :46:17.or six years ago. Obviously there was the cool Britannia, Oasis, Blur,
:46:17. > :46:20.that era, with Lily Allen and Amy Winehouse into Adele and Florence,
:46:20. > :46:24.it is an era, nobody needs me to go around and say it is, you look at
:46:24. > :46:29.the charts in America and across Europe and Asia. These are some of
:46:29. > :46:35.the biggest, Adele is the biggest superstar in the world. Is the
:46:35. > :46:40.feel-good factor still there. Cool Britannia was in the boom time,
:46:40. > :46:44.1997, Tony Blair coming to power, everything feeling different than
:46:44. > :46:49.today in an age of austerity. Can we have the same buzz today? People
:46:49. > :46:54.look to their music for an escape. And part of me wishes that, you
:46:54. > :46:57.know, some of the top ten reflected a bit of what is going on, as
:46:57. > :47:01.opposed to everyone spraying champagne in the club left and
:47:01. > :47:07.right. I understand that people do want to forget about their every
:47:07. > :47:11.day troubles when they listen to music, I guess the charts reflect
:47:11. > :47:14.that. The other thing that is central to this particular anthem
:47:14. > :47:18.is the commercial side of it. You watch the video, Coca-Cola is all
:47:18. > :47:23.over it. Let's face it, it is a very commercial piece of music,
:47:23. > :47:26.made to a certain brief. Does that not detract from it at all. How did
:47:26. > :47:30.you feel about being part of something that is so commercial?
:47:30. > :47:34.You know I think the record industry, everyone knows the record
:47:34. > :47:43.industry has fallen on hard times. You have projects like this, where,
:47:43. > :47:49.I'm not going to go as far to say it is musical fill lanthropy, no
:47:49. > :47:53.record company -- fill lantthropy, no record company will pay for me
:47:53. > :47:59.and Katy to go around the country and make this song. I don't think I
:47:59. > :48:03.sold out,. Mark Ronson good luck with it. Thank you very much.
:48:03. > :48:13.That is all from Newsnight tonight, Emily is here at the same time
:48:13. > :48:17.
:48:17. > :48:19.tomorrow, with all the news fit to tomorrow, with all the news fit to
:48:19. > :48:23.screen, from me, good night. The weather is set to fair over the
:48:23. > :48:27.next few days, sunshine on Friday. Low cloud and mist will dissipate.
:48:28. > :48:31.There will be a few exceptions, maybe some low cloud drift to go
:48:31. > :48:36.the east coast of England, the odd shower across western parts of the
:48:36. > :48:39.UK. So isolated hardly worthy of a mention. For most of us fine, warm
:48:39. > :48:43.and sunny. I mentioned the east coast, cooler and cloudier, that
:48:43. > :48:49.will be the exception. For many of us temperatures will be soaring
:48:49. > :48:54.into the mid-to high teens, more sunshine tomorrow across parts of
:48:54. > :48:58.South-West England today. The odd shower and a fair bit of cloud,
:48:58. > :49:04.that won't be the case on Friday. Parts of Northern Ireland, these
:49:04. > :49:09.will be a dying breed with showers, the odd shower might crop up across
:49:09. > :49:11.the heart of Scotland. Particularly in the west, very isolated and
:49:11. > :49:15.nearly everywhere will stay entirely dry. That will be the
:49:15. > :49:20.story as we hit the weekend, dry with some sunshine. The best of
:49:20. > :49:23.that across the more western parts of the country. This is where the
:49:23. > :49:27.best of the temperatures will be, as we progress into the weekend,
:49:27. > :49:32.sunny and warm. Always towards the most eastern coastal areas, with
:49:32. > :49:36.the breeze coming off the sea it will be notably cooler, and the