:00:08. > :00:12.Cheap alcohol causes criminal behaviour and chronic illness,
:00:12. > :00:16.expensive alcohol causes all those things to happen too, but not to
:00:16. > :00:24.poor people. Is it fair to target the drinking habits of one section
:00:24. > :00:26.of society. The fear of a drunken underclass has played pretty well,
:00:27. > :00:30.but resisted solution. Is the Government on the wrong side of
:00:30. > :00:35.Government on the wrong side of history.
:00:35. > :00:38.The MP, Eric Joyce, is under curfew at home after being convicted of
:00:38. > :00:44.drunken assault in a Commons bar, what does he think.
:00:44. > :00:50.Is race rearing its head in the US presidential campaign. Obama sets
:00:50. > :00:57.in after Mary Trevelyan School Martin is shot dead. If I had a son
:00:57. > :01:03.he would look like Mary Trevelyan School. How will the shooting s in
:01:03. > :01:13.France affect the vote. Will the arguments over the
:01:13. > :01:14.
:01:14. > :01:19.killings in Toulouse simply deepen Good evening, dizziness, blurred
:01:19. > :01:25.vision, impaired judgment, symptoms of heavy drinking, or perhaps, you
:01:25. > :01:29.could argue, of a Government trying to rush out new poll on the back of
:01:29. > :01:33.an unpopular budget. The Home Secretary made a rare
:01:33. > :01:39.Friday Commons statement to announce a minimum price on units
:01:39. > :01:44.of alcohol, he was accused of trying to take attention away from
:01:44. > :01:51.the tax on pensions. Is there any proof it will cut down
:01:51. > :01:54."binge drinking"? It is perhaps a step or two beyond
:01:54. > :02:00.the inner city drinking the Prime Minister had in mind when he put
:02:00. > :02:06.his name to today's alcohol strategy. But Hogarth's 1751
:02:06. > :02:11.painting of gin crazed Londoners was brought in to support the gin
:02:11. > :02:15.Act, and it prompted riots. It is a dilemma that politicians today will
:02:15. > :02:19.recognise. Whether to impose price regimes to persuade people to
:02:19. > :02:24.change their behaviour, or whether to leave people to make their own
:02:24. > :02:28.choices. THE SPEAKER: Statement, the Home Secretary, there is
:02:28. > :02:31.Secretary May. From her statement to the House
:02:31. > :02:36.this morning, there was no doubt where the Home Secretary, Thresa
:02:36. > :02:39.May, stands on "binge drinking". will put a stop to the easy
:02:39. > :02:45.availability of cheap booze blighting Britain for too long.
:02:45. > :02:49.This is a comprehensive strategy to take back our town centres from the
:02:49. > :02:52.drunken thugs and restore them to the law-abiding majority. According
:02:52. > :02:56.to this former President of the Royal College of Physicians, the
:02:56. > :03:00.recent evidence supports her position. Canada have had some
:03:00. > :03:04.experience of a form of amendment unit pricing in some of their
:03:04. > :03:08.provinces for years for beer. It has shown an impact on consumption
:03:08. > :03:13.also on harm. There is some practical evidence from Canada. Now
:03:13. > :03:18.the evidence linking price in general to consumption and harm is
:03:18. > :03:23.overwhelming, many countries have, for example, cut the price, as they
:03:23. > :03:26.did in Finland in 2004, when taxes were slashed, there was a huge
:03:26. > :03:31.surge in consumption and health harm and mortality. So the link
:03:31. > :03:35.with price is clear, minimum unit price, there is less practical
:03:35. > :03:39.evidence for, but the modelling is very strong.
:03:39. > :03:43.But however wise he makes it sound, is it possible there was some
:03:43. > :03:47.politics at play here. Labour think so. On the timing of the
:03:47. > :03:53.Government's announcement. Over the last ten years there have been only
:03:53. > :04:03.three Government statements on a Friday. On the Iraq war, on swue,
:04:03. > :04:03.
:04:03. > :04:08.and on Libya. All involving national emergencies, what is the
:04:08. > :04:10.national emergency today. What is the national emergency that means a
:04:10. > :04:13.decision was made late yesterday afternoon to brief an important and
:04:13. > :04:17.serious strategy into the newspapers that meant a decision
:04:17. > :04:22.was made this morning to interrupt the budget debate and make an oral
:04:22. > :04:30.statement, the only emergency is that the Prime Minister and the
:04:30. > :04:33.Chancellor have gone wobbley over the coverage of their budget.
:04:33. > :04:37.The evidence linking rising price and falling consumption may be
:04:38. > :04:42.stacking up. But on minimum price per unit, the experts can't look
:04:42. > :04:46.into history. They have to model how people might behave in future.
:04:46. > :04:50.Scotland has already said it will introduce a minimum unit price for
:04:50. > :04:55.alcohol. Though it may face a legal challenge on that from the drinks
:04:55. > :04:59.industry. The Scottish Government has consulted on what that price
:04:59. > :05:03.should be, and has asked the university of Sheffield to model
:05:03. > :05:10.the impact. Work from the team from January this year found that if the
:05:10. > :05:16.minimum price per unit is set at 40p, that would affect 45% of
:05:16. > :05:20.alcohol sold through off-licences and supermarkets. At 50p, 70% of
:05:20. > :05:24.the units sold would have to rise in price. We have learned that the
:05:24. > :05:28.coalition Government has now asked the same team to model the impact
:05:28. > :05:31.of different minimum prices for England and Wales. As they decide
:05:31. > :05:35.how low to go. But is this whole approach
:05:35. > :05:39.expecting too much of people. has always appealed to people in
:05:39. > :05:43.this country, largely because the weather is terrible, and life is
:05:43. > :05:46.quite tough. I think there is almost a class issue in this debate
:05:46. > :05:49.about drinking. Traditionally it has been people who have things to
:05:49. > :05:53.live for, other than drinking, who have tried to stop other people,
:05:53. > :05:57.who perhaps have less to live for, to stop drinking. There is an issue
:05:57. > :06:01.really about where pleasure comes in. If you have lots of possible
:06:01. > :06:06.sources of pleasure, you might be particularly tough on those whose
:06:06. > :06:09.pleasures are more limited. would all like as little Government
:06:09. > :06:14.interference in our lives as possible, we are not talking about
:06:14. > :06:19.an ordinary product like soap powder, we are talking about a drug,
:06:19. > :06:24.a psychoactive drug and a drug of dependance. We have legislated on
:06:24. > :06:27.seatbelts, tobacco, I think some legislation around alcohol is not
:06:27. > :06:30.just desirable, I think it is absolutely essential. In the past,
:06:30. > :06:34.those trying to curb consumption of alcohol sought religious backing
:06:35. > :06:41.for their cause, or pointed to the dangers for frackry workers. These
:06:41. > :06:46.days, for many, it is -- factory work. These days, for many, it is
:06:46. > :06:48.ill-health, that makes the case for cutting back. Will this prove any
:06:48. > :06:55.more convincing a reason to separate the British from their
:06:55. > :07:02.beer. We have a GP and Tory MP, not to
:07:02. > :07:07.mention a member of the Commons health select committee, an MP
:07:07. > :07:12.against minimum pricing, Eric Joyce, was forced to quit the House of
:07:12. > :07:17.Commons after a drunken punch up in the Commons. He's under house
:07:17. > :07:21.arrest at the moment. You can speak with real authority and experience
:07:21. > :07:26.about the problem of alcoholism. Bluntly, would a policy of minimum
:07:26. > :07:29.pricing have made a difference to you? No, of course not. With the
:07:29. > :07:33.experience of my own sins, if you like, the fact is middle-class
:07:33. > :07:36.people, and I guess I have to accept that I am one, will be
:07:36. > :07:41.entirely unaffected by this. This is a policy entirely directed at
:07:41. > :07:47.the least well off. That is why I think it is entirely unacceptable.
:07:47. > :07:51.But you have seen the way it can derail careers, and throw people
:07:51. > :07:55.off balance. The laws of economics suggest that at some stage, that
:07:55. > :08:01.the less able you are to afford that, the less it is going to hurt
:08:01. > :08:05.you, surely? It won't affect professional people, a change in
:08:05. > :08:09.the minimum unit price, won't affect professional people, it
:08:09. > :08:14.won't affect people on reasonable wages, it won't affect pub or club
:08:14. > :08:19.prices, it ont even affect, if I may say, prices in the House of
:08:19. > :08:23.Commons. It will only affect people who buy and consume primarily in
:08:23. > :08:26.supermarkets and buy the cheaper end stuff. It seems to locate the
:08:26. > :08:33.entire problem with drinking and anti-social behaviour with the
:08:33. > :08:36.least well off. I think it is abomb mid-able. Is it political? It is
:08:36. > :08:41.middle-class people saying we can do one thing, and all the less well
:08:41. > :08:45.off people we will blame them for all the ills of society, and locate
:08:45. > :08:50.the whole problem with the least well off, and punish the least well
:08:50. > :08:54.off. This has no impact on most people. It has no impact on people
:08:54. > :09:00.like me, and on my own behaviour it had no impact. Would you concede it
:09:00. > :09:04.is more often a problem for poorer people, who are less able to get to
:09:04. > :09:08.grips with "binge drinking"? not sure I would concede that. I
:09:08. > :09:11.have suspect and I have heard good evidence to say that there are many
:09:11. > :09:15.middle-class people seeking help and assistance for their own
:09:15. > :09:19.overconsumption of alcohol, and other drugs, and so forth. I'm not
:09:19. > :09:23.sure there is strong evidence of that. If we are beginning now to
:09:23. > :09:26.rely on provincial studies done in Canada as one example, which is
:09:26. > :09:31.what we seem to be hearing about, I think it is probably rather early
:09:31. > :09:38.to say what the outcome in terms of people's behaviour might be. Sill
:09:38. > :09:42.sofically, any policy -- philosophically, any policy that
:09:42. > :09:47.concerns themselves with the less well off while the better well off
:09:47. > :09:52.can crack on and do what they want. If we follow the Scandinavian model
:09:52. > :09:56.and raise the alcohol for rich and poor, across a range of alcohol,
:09:56. > :09:58.would you say that is something that should happen? I think what
:09:59. > :10:03.happens in Scandinavia, is that there is a much higher level of
:10:03. > :10:08.duty, it is more expensive, people consume much more at home. There is
:10:08. > :10:11.more home brew, and home distilllation in Scandinavia, how
:10:11. > :10:14.they socialise and behave is different. In the end there is a
:10:14. > :10:18.big difference between applying a higher level of duty, which is one
:10:18. > :10:23.argument, when you can put the benefits back into health and
:10:23. > :10:28.education, and simply requiring the shops to make a higher profit, that
:10:28. > :10:34.seems to me to have no, as it were, public merit, at all. You have
:10:34. > :10:38.heard the charges levelled at your Government, it is abominable, it is
:10:38. > :10:42.aimed at a tax put on the poor? completely disagree. This alcohol
:10:42. > :10:46.strategy is not just about pricing, it is about pricing, availability,
:10:46. > :10:52.marketing, it is about early intervention. It is also about
:10:52. > :10:56.actually mandating sobriety, and offering treatment. That may be a
:10:56. > :10:59.treatment that works better for Eric Joyce. But for young binge
:10:59. > :11:06.drinkers, we know they are sensitive to price. As long as you
:11:06. > :11:09.can get drunk for 68p as a young person, will undermine all other
:11:09. > :11:11.measures. It is not just about pricing but a whole package of
:11:11. > :11:15.measures, this is a fantastic strategy. The controversial one is
:11:15. > :11:23.about the minimum pricing, the Tories simply don't like it when we
:11:23. > :11:27.raise the bulling done club, that is now many in the -- Bulling don
:11:27. > :11:33.Club, but that is how many will see it, that it is OK to be drunk if
:11:33. > :11:37.you are wearing a white tie and so on? It is about taking away the
:11:37. > :11:42.ultra cheap alcohol. It won't make the pub prices more expensive at
:11:42. > :11:46.all. That is where it happens? It is the pub brawls. That is exactly
:11:46. > :11:51.the point. I disagree. What very often happens is people will
:11:51. > :11:55.preload on ultra cheap alcohol, the clubs and pubs sometimes get the
:11:55. > :12:00.blame, when people are already almost drunk by the time they get
:12:00. > :12:04.there. Is there anyone suggesting that is true? We know people
:12:04. > :12:09.preload. This free loading argument -- preloading argument, it has been
:12:09. > :12:12.put up recently so you can see the coherence of what Sarah has just
:12:12. > :12:16.said. Unless you introduce the preloading argument before people
:12:16. > :12:20.go out, it doesn't make sense to see violence in public situations
:12:20. > :12:24.as a consequence of cheap alcohol, because the unit alcohol is more
:12:24. > :12:29.expensive. What Sarah has said about preloading there is no
:12:29. > :12:35.evidence to show or research on that. 70% of people preload before
:12:35. > :12:45.going out on a night to the pub? know that as a consequence of that,
:12:45. > :12:51.
:12:51. > :12:54.up to 78% of A&E admittance after 12.00 is to do with alcohol. That
:12:54. > :12:58.could be to do with alcoholic parents with wine, it targets the
:12:59. > :13:04.poor? It doesn't target the poor. We know that the heaviest drinkers
:13:04. > :13:07.pay, on average, 40% less per unit for their alcohol. Of course, no-
:13:07. > :13:12.one is going to pretend that very wealthy people are going to be
:13:12. > :13:18.affected by minimum pricing. Just explain to us the timing, this was
:13:18. > :13:23.your own question a few months ago. Chloe Smith three months ago said
:13:23. > :13:26.would be against EU law. Three months later on the back of the
:13:26. > :13:29.budget, it is not against EU law? What is changing is the
:13:29. > :13:32.commissioners have made it clear, where this is a proportionate
:13:32. > :13:36.measure, that will address an urgent pressing health need, it
:13:36. > :13:40.would be acceptable. I'm really encouraged. I think we could just
:13:40. > :13:43.continue to stick our heads in the sand, as the Labour administration
:13:43. > :13:49.did, and cosy up to the drinks industry, or we can say we take a
:13:49. > :13:52.package of measures. This isn't just about pricing, this is about
:13:52. > :13:58.availability, giving communities powers to address problem premises,
:13:58. > :14:01.it is looking at how we make sure people stay sober but offer them
:14:01. > :14:04.treatment. It is an exciting range of policies. When you hear the
:14:04. > :14:10.Government talking now about the sense of responsibility to people,
:14:10. > :14:20.I'm wondering on a very personal level, whether you regret the first
:14:20. > :14:23.drink you had? The fact is, I'm responsible for my own behaviour.
:14:23. > :14:26.As everyone, you give education and advice, they make their own call,
:14:26. > :14:32.if they choose to smoke or drink alcohol that is their call. The
:14:32. > :14:38.worry I have about the Government's position now, and Sarah, who I
:14:38. > :14:41.absolutely accept she has the right intentions. The worry is, it looks
:14:41. > :14:45.like the Government wants to take the right of making personal
:14:45. > :14:49.decisions away from people. That is wrong. Do you think your own
:14:49. > :14:54.problem is more in control as a result of whatever steps you have
:14:54. > :14:58.taken since the punch-up. It is your choice, you said it is your
:14:58. > :15:02.choice to do what you want. There qums a point for many people that -
:15:02. > :15:09.- comes a point for many people that you don't have that choice at
:15:09. > :15:12.all. Are you still in control of your own choices? Yeah, I think so.
:15:12. > :15:16.Something cataclysmic happens when you have a bunch of personal
:15:16. > :15:21.decisions to make, I have too. I think as far as generalising out to
:15:21. > :15:24.public policy, it really is a business of Government to give
:15:24. > :15:28.people advice, help and assistance, but not to say to them we will make
:15:28. > :15:32.the a decision for the least well off, you may no longer do this. We
:15:33. > :15:39.will put it out of your ability to afford, that seems amoral if not
:15:39. > :15:47.immoral. My son would Someone Like You Mary
:15:47. > :15:54.Trevelyan School, a powerful, personal -- my son would like --
:15:55. > :15:58.look like Mary Trevelyan School. He said the shooting of Mary Trevelyan
:15:58. > :16:03.School Martin, shot by a local watchman, should prompt national
:16:03. > :16:08.soul searching. Was he right to get involved in a case that was is
:16:08. > :16:13.becoming a passionate debate about race in America. The death of Mary
:16:13. > :16:19.Trevelyan School Martin, gunned down by a neighbourhood watchman,
:16:19. > :16:24.who wasn't prosecuted as he claimed self-defence, has sparked outrage
:16:24. > :16:29.across America. Rallies have been held across America to shout for
:16:30. > :16:33.justice. In Florida, a law known as Stand Your Ground, can prevent a
:16:33. > :16:37.criminal prosecution when deadly force is used in self-defence.
:16:37. > :16:42.There have been mounting calling for the arrest of George Zimmerman,
:16:42. > :16:46.who opened fire on the teenager in a quiet Orlando suburb. For weeks
:16:46. > :16:50.the US President remained silent on the subject, to the frustration of
:16:50. > :16:55.many. When his words finally came today, they were powerful,
:16:55. > :17:05.condemnry, and invoked his own black family. My main message is to
:17:05. > :17:07.
:17:07. > :17:12.the parents of treftrf Martin. -- Mary Trevelyan School Martin, if I
:17:12. > :17:16.had a son he would look like Mary Trevelyan School Martin. Was he
:17:16. > :17:20.right to get involved in an argument where these sensabilities
:17:20. > :17:30.are highly felt. Was President Obama's timing right, was the
:17:30. > :17:32.
:17:32. > :17:38.intervention unsense ry, we have a TV host commentator, and other
:17:38. > :17:43.other guest. It is good to be able to speak to you. Armstrong Williams,
:17:43. > :17:47.when you look at the facts of the case, a young man going to visit
:17:47. > :17:52.his father in a gated compound, unarmed, carrying a drink, shot
:17:52. > :17:59.dead, and a guard not even charged or followed up for this? It is
:17:59. > :18:06.obvious that the Sanford Florida Police officials did not stand up
:18:06. > :18:12.to their responsibilities. There is no way, even with the Stand Grour
:18:12. > :18:17.Your Ground law in Florida -- Stand Your Ground law in Florida, a court
:18:17. > :18:20.must decide if you have actually killed inself defence, just to
:18:20. > :18:23.believe George Zimmerman to say how he was able to receive the injuries
:18:23. > :18:25.and how it happened, and for the police to believe him and not
:18:25. > :18:30.question whether he was lying or not. And for Mary Trevelyan
:18:31. > :18:36.School's body to lie in a morgue for -- Mary Trevelyan School's body
:18:36. > :18:39.to lie in a morgue for three days, that is a travesty of justice. When
:18:39. > :18:43.you speak about the President it is another issue, when the President
:18:43. > :18:47.says this could have been my son. It could also have been his son
:18:47. > :18:50.when you have the thousands and thousands of young blacks every day
:18:50. > :18:54.every week, and the statistics are growing in the inner cities in the
:18:54. > :18:57.United States. Either one of those cases he could speak out on, or he
:18:57. > :19:03.could have spoken out when those rare cases where black kids killed
:19:03. > :19:06.white kids, a part of his humanity is diminished. For the President,
:19:06. > :19:09.that is why he has an Attorney- General, I can understand why he
:19:09. > :19:12.spoke up. It would have been my preference for the President to
:19:12. > :19:16.discipline himself and not to come in on this case. He was wrong to
:19:16. > :19:22.take the lead on this one, to speak out. He could have left this to his
:19:22. > :19:26.Department of Justice. Why does he have to vofl himself with something
:19:26. > :19:30.like -- volume himself, with -- involve himself with something like
:19:30. > :19:35.this, when it is going to involve an issue of race? First of all, I
:19:35. > :19:40.think the President has spoken on all of those occasions, he has been
:19:40. > :19:46.very vocal about his positions on how the black community is lacking
:19:46. > :19:52.in education, and the young people are dropping out. He is up front
:19:52. > :19:55.about that. He has been condemned about it a few times as well. I
:19:55. > :19:59.think it was very important for him to actually speak up on this, first
:19:59. > :20:04.of all, he was asked a question by a reporter, secondly, at this point,
:20:04. > :20:09.this has become a national issue, and if he wants to be evasive about
:20:09. > :20:11.this, especially now that the Justice Department is involved in
:20:11. > :20:15.the investigation, would be completely irresponsible of him. I
:20:16. > :20:22.think the way he approached it was perfectly fine. He made it very
:20:22. > :20:24.personal, he spoke about it as a father, he spoke about it from a
:20:25. > :20:28.perspective of not just a President, but for somebody who actually cares
:20:28. > :20:37.about the community at large. I don't think he made it a race issue
:20:37. > :20:43.in the end. I think it would be disengineous for anyone to say he
:20:43. > :20:47.did so. -- Disingenious for anyone to say he did so. It is not a race
:20:47. > :20:52.issue? When the civil rights movement only protest and march
:20:52. > :20:55.when a young black, that has been killed by somebody who is white, or
:20:55. > :20:59.Latino, when they don't ever protest when it is the other way
:20:59. > :21:02.round, how can you not say race is not involved. It is not just the
:21:02. > :21:07.President. You know, I admire the President for speaking out, I can
:21:07. > :21:13.understand him speaking out as the CEO of our country, but still,
:21:13. > :21:17.these are issues that happen every day. And I would challenge the
:21:17. > :21:20.commentator to name one case, like this, where it is not a high-
:21:21. > :21:24.profile case and there is not a lot of pressure, where the President
:21:24. > :21:27.has spoken out. I'm saying the President must protect his
:21:27. > :21:31.integrity and the voice he has as a voice of reason, as a voice of
:21:31. > :21:36.fairness. This is not a race issue, this is a human tragedy, but many
:21:36. > :21:43.people will say privately that he spoke out because of the hue of his
:21:43. > :21:45.skin. I would hate for them to think so. This is a strategy, but
:21:45. > :21:50.his Attorney-General, and his wife Michelle Obama could have stepped
:21:50. > :21:55.out and spoken to the nation about this tragedy, and immore the
:21:55. > :22:01.American people to do better. We -- implore the American people to do
:22:01. > :22:05.better. We cannot tolerate these kinds of incidents anywhere. Do you
:22:05. > :22:08.think something has changed today, do you think he has gone from being
:22:08. > :22:12.an American President to a black American President? Of course not.
:22:12. > :22:16.That would be just an absurd thing to say. I would ask the commentator
:22:16. > :22:20.on the other end exact low the same question, that he has not --
:22:20. > :22:24.exactly the same question, he has not talked about a single issue
:22:24. > :22:28.where somebody was murdered in this fashion, of any colour, and the
:22:28. > :22:32.police department refused to file or even arrest that person, before
:22:32. > :22:39.they start to lay blame and talk about Mary Trevelyan School
:22:39. > :22:48.Martin's tragedy as something so specifically racial, I want them
:22:48. > :22:52.Mary Trevelyan School -- I want them to about the law and how that
:22:52. > :22:56.came about, the President was extremely restrained, it was the
:22:56. > :23:01.right time to speak about it, if not the same gentleman criticising
:23:01. > :23:04.him today would say he's not saying anything about it. The President
:23:04. > :23:08.doesn't have to make a statement about everything, that is not his
:23:08. > :23:12.job, but now the Justice Department is involved, he waited until the
:23:12. > :23:19.state of Florida refused to do the right thing, that includes the
:23:19. > :23:22.state office. That is when he got involved. Another country where
:23:22. > :23:26.race may play big in elections around the corner is France, after
:23:26. > :23:29.the shooting of three soldiers, a rabbi and three Jewish children, by
:23:29. > :23:35.a militant Islamist, the President of the Republic, Nicolas Sarkozy,
:23:35. > :23:39.has appealed for unity. The country has a new far right candidate,
:23:39. > :23:46.Jean-Marie Le Pen n a country where the National Front has
:23:46. > :23:51.traditionally done well. How might this play out politically.
:23:51. > :23:58.The names of the three children and four adult, shot dead by a single
:23:58. > :24:02.killer, rang out in Toulouse's main square today.
:24:02. > :24:12.This simple ceremony, a way for the people of the city to show they are
:24:12. > :24:15.standing together against the hatred behind the murders.
:24:15. > :24:19.TRANSLATION: These events don't raise any question about diversity
:24:19. > :24:25.in France. People will now realise that stigmatising a religion, can
:24:25. > :24:28.only lead to something terrible. The tragedy has led, inevitably,
:24:28. > :24:36.for demands for greater security. But the socialist politicians who
:24:36. > :24:41.run the region, whose national leader, Francois Allende, is a
:24:41. > :24:46.front runner in the French presidential election, are keen to
:24:46. > :24:50.play it down. TRANSLATION: There is no doubt these events add a
:24:50. > :24:54.dramatic addition to the presidential campaign, we must
:24:54. > :24:57.remain calm and not allow them to become too important. In the face
:24:57. > :25:00.of the tragic events of the last few week, all mainstream
:25:00. > :25:03.politicians are calling for university. That is what the people
:25:03. > :25:08.on the square want. The problem is, particularly during an election
:25:08. > :25:13.campaign, everyone knows there is also an undercurrent of concern
:25:13. > :25:17.about immigration, and too much diversity that can't be ignored.
:25:17. > :25:21.The prevalence of halal meat in some areas of France, including
:25:21. > :25:24.this Muslim district of Toulouse, became an issue at the beginning of
:25:24. > :25:29.the campaign. The Islamic method of slaughter was questioned not only
:25:29. > :25:33.by the far right National Front, but also by politicians of
:25:33. > :25:41.President Sarkozy's centre right party. To the bemusement of many
:25:41. > :25:45.people here. TRANSLATION: We grew up with halal meat, we can't change,
:25:45. > :25:51.I don't know why halal meat has got mixed up in politics. They are like
:25:51. > :25:55.little boys in the Government, they obvious low don't feel very well.
:25:55. > :25:59.Now, in the -- obviously don't feel very well. Now in the wake of the
:25:59. > :26:04.killings, the line from Sarkozy supporters is slightly different,
:26:04. > :26:07.not against diversity, but against extremism.
:26:08. > :26:13.TRANSLATION: Immigration in France is nothing new. But we have a much
:26:13. > :26:17.more serious problem now, it is a problem of radical, fundamental
:26:17. > :26:20.Islam, which is shaking the foundations of the Republic.
:26:20. > :26:24.But the National Front doesn't hesitate to put the two issues
:26:25. > :26:28.together. TRANSLATION: I think there is a
:26:28. > :26:34.link between security and immigration. There are homes and
:26:35. > :26:38.suburbs where young men may explode in violence. There are networks.
:26:38. > :26:44.The question for an editor on the leading regional newspaper, will
:26:44. > :26:48.the killings force Nicolas Sarkozy to turn back to this issue? He will
:26:48. > :26:55.be compelled to talk about immigration, because public opinion
:26:56. > :27:02.wants a real debate on that, because they are very -- they see
:27:02. > :27:09.that some process of French integration had failed. I think
:27:10. > :27:14.French people want to have a debate, but a real balanced debate. Nicolas
:27:14. > :27:21.Sarkozy has eaten into the lead since January, when the challenger
:27:21. > :27:28.typically led by 57% to 43% in the second round of voting. That gap is
:27:28. > :27:34.down to 46%. Crucial will be how National Front supporters vote in
:27:34. > :27:43.the second round. Current low, 50% of them will vote Sarkozy, to just
:27:43. > :27:49.11% for Hollande. 39% are undecided, enough to tip the election. Tragedy
:27:49. > :27:56.could have mobilised all these electors of the National Front, and
:27:56. > :28:02.maybe they will have a natural leaning towards the French
:28:02. > :28:09.President, Nicolas Sarkozy, because he summerises, and embodies all the
:28:09. > :28:12.notions of security and the country needing a leader in these kinds of
:28:12. > :28:17.situations. But appearing to benefit from a
:28:17. > :28:21.tragedy is something no mainstream politician in France wants to do.
:28:21. > :28:25.In racing the issues of security, and inter-- in raising the issues
:28:25. > :28:29.of security and integration in the coming weeks, President Sarkozy
:28:29. > :28:32.will have to tread a very fine line, to avoid alienating as many voters
:28:32. > :28:36.as he may attract. Last night here on Newsnight we
:28:36. > :28:40.broke the news from a leaked report, that the welfare-to-work company,
:28:40. > :28:46.A4e, had paid back thousands of pounds to the Government after
:28:46. > :28:50.uncovering thousands of fraudulent claims. Tonight more details.
:28:50. > :28:55.The report we broke last night did reveal, across the country,
:28:55. > :29:00.evidence of fraud, irregularity, and risky claims by A4e. So much so
:29:00. > :29:05.that they could only be sure of 70% of cases, that they had claimed for
:29:05. > :29:10.the right amount of money, if they should have claimed for any. Today
:29:10. > :29:12.what we have moved this on to is this, the DWP, the relevant
:29:12. > :29:19.Government department, is now certain it never received the
:29:19. > :29:22.report. We know at the time they were told
:29:22. > :29:28.no serious issues were raised. Why it is important, is the DWP only
:29:28. > :29:33.got it yesterday, but weeks ago it asked for all relevant information,
:29:33. > :29:36.why didn't it get it. More interestingly, pouring through the
:29:36. > :29:41.parliamentary records, we noticed this audit, subject to the report,
:29:41. > :29:47.was made public in October 2009. A4e said we are doing this, looking
:29:47. > :29:51.at the work of the top 20 people, ready by October 2009. What did the
:29:51. > :29:56.DWP get, what did they get if they didn't get this, what did they do
:29:56. > :30:01.about it? We asked the Government to provide us what they actually
:30:01. > :30:07.got. Surprise, surprise, they have said no. But the whole future of
:30:07. > :30:12.A4e depends on what they actually submitted in October 2009.
:30:12. > :30:16.Coming up in a moment, we're in Glasgow with tonight's review show.
:30:16. > :30:21.We have got lots of new offerings from several literary heavyweights,
:30:21. > :30:26.we go back to Treasure Island with Andrew Motion. Recreate a silver
:30:26. > :30:32.swan with Peter Carey, go wild with Ben Okri, and discover the The Man