:00:08. > :00:11.It wasn't just as the Government asserted at the time, pure
:00:11. > :00:15.criminality, according to the panel investigating them, last summer's
:00:15. > :00:19.unpress departmented riots, were the product of bad schools, bad
:00:20. > :00:24.parenting, insufficient jobs and being poor when capitalism dangles
:00:24. > :00:29.luxury in your face. It felt like Christmas had come early, just
:00:29. > :00:34.being able to take all the nice things that you want.
:00:34. > :00:39.The diagnosis of the causes of the riots reads like some socialist's
:00:39. > :00:43.check list. And you are wasting your -- sociolologists check list,
:00:43. > :00:47.and you are wasting your time asking for solutions. Is the
:00:47. > :00:51.diagnosis right, and is there a cure.
:00:51. > :00:55.We would all like to live here, but does it exist, does the
:00:55. > :01:01.Government's planning policy meet the fears of conservationists.
:01:01. > :01:08.Pity the pieman, can George Osborne be persuaded not to levy VAT on
:01:08. > :01:15.pies and pasties. In their propaganda, this group
:01:15. > :01:20.call themselves The Immortals, and so they wear death masks, we go in
:01:20. > :01:23.search of Germany's new generation of neo-Nazis.
:01:23. > :01:33.TRANSLATION: We need people willing, ready, able and trained, in case it
:01:33. > :01:34.
:01:35. > :01:40.comes to civil war. The scene is armed, it is military.
:01:40. > :01:45.The riots last summer were the behaval product of too many young
:01:45. > :01:48.people with nothing to lose. That is the less than earth-shatteringly
:01:48. > :01:55.conclusion of the panel set up to find out what happened.
:01:55. > :01:59.All of us want jobs, a sense of engagment, something to hope for.
:01:59. > :02:03.The report's authors think much of this could be settled if schools
:02:03. > :02:07.built character, or be fined if too few pupils learned to read or write
:02:07. > :02:10.well. We will talk about their ideas and if they make sense
:02:10. > :02:13.shortly, first Peter Marshall reports.
:02:13. > :02:16.Five days which shook England's cities, shocking the nation, and
:02:16. > :02:20.beyond. We know all too well what happened
:02:20. > :02:23.last August, but why? Those involved insist there were
:02:23. > :02:29.causes. Of course there was a reason behind
:02:29. > :02:35.it, why would it all kick off. It wouldn't kick off for no reason.
:02:35. > :02:39.Even the Prime Minister, whose initial response was to blame
:02:39. > :02:43.commoner garden thieving and looting, was soon announcing
:02:43. > :02:47.policies to tackle deeper roots. believe it is only by recognising a
:02:47. > :02:50.problem that you can fix what has actually gone wrong. This summer,
:02:50. > :02:55.we saw, beyond doubt, that something has gone profoundly wrong.
:02:55. > :02:59.To get to grips with that profound wrong, Mr Cameron set up the
:02:59. > :03:04.Troubled Families Programme, promising to turn around the lives
:03:04. > :03:07.of 120,000 families identified as causing crime or anti-social
:03:07. > :03:13.behaviour. Unfortunately, according to the riots report, these weren't
:03:13. > :03:23.the families who had rioted. The report says of the Troubled
:03:23. > :03:30.
:03:30. > :03:34.So this forgotten half million are the problem of the What we argue in
:03:34. > :03:39.the report is the principles within the Troubled Families Programme
:03:40. > :03:42.need to be expanded to focus on those forgotten families, as we
:03:42. > :03:45.call them. Matt Cavanagh was an adviser for the Home Office in
:03:45. > :03:49.Labour's time, he says the current Government's Troubled Families
:03:49. > :03:54.Programme now looks wide of the mark. It looks like a classic
:03:54. > :03:58.response of a politician reaching for a policy solution in the middle
:03:58. > :04:04.of a crisis, reaching for something they had bubbling in the background
:04:04. > :04:08.any way, and using them to get them through the few difficult weeks in
:04:08. > :04:13.August. They should keep going with it, but shouldn't pretend it is a
:04:13. > :04:15.solution to the riots. The rioters had two targets, the police and
:04:15. > :04:25.expensive products. They were fuelled by resentment of the first,
:04:25. > :04:26.
:04:26. > :04:29.and desire for the second. The It felt like Christmas had come
:04:29. > :04:33.early, just being able to take all the nice things that you wanted.
:04:33. > :04:37.When you get a chance to put your hands on things like that you feel
:04:37. > :04:42.good. The report criticises the police,
:04:42. > :04:52.particularly in London, saying, the Met can dramatically improve their
:04:52. > :04:52.
:04:53. > :04:58.As for solutions, the report notes most of those who riots were under
:04:58. > :05:02.24, and poorly educated. It says school should have policies to
:05:02. > :05:06.build pupils' character, regularly assessing their strength of
:05:06. > :05:12.character. It also says schools which fail to educate pupils
:05:12. > :05:15.properly should be fined, and it addresses the scourge of youth
:05:15. > :05:18.unemployment. Now, when you have unemployment at around a million,
:05:18. > :05:23.it is interesting and helpful that the report recommends a guarantee
:05:23. > :05:27.of a job for young people who have been unemployed for over a year. It
:05:27. > :05:31.costs about �400 million to do that for all those who have been
:05:31. > :05:35.unemployed for over a year. Is that a problem for the report, that
:05:35. > :05:40.things aren't costed? In that case, it is a sensible policy. They would
:05:40. > :05:45.have to say how it is paid for. It is fair criticism of the report
:05:45. > :05:48.that it recommends a wide number of things we would all like to see
:05:48. > :05:52.happen, for example, one-to-one support for kids falling behind in
:05:52. > :05:56.school, the challenge is how to pay for it, what other things do we cut
:05:56. > :06:00.to make that possible. The worst public disorder in a
:06:00. > :06:04.generation was the result of multiple causes, with dreadful
:06:05. > :06:07.consequences. The riots report makes no fewer than 63
:06:07. > :06:12.recommendations, many will cost dear. Does the Government now turn
:06:12. > :06:16.its attention to the newly- identified half a million forgotten
:06:16. > :06:21.families, the young unemployed, commercialisation, the police,
:06:21. > :06:24.schools building stronger characters, where to start? Let's
:06:24. > :06:28.see if we have ideas now. The authors of the report are so cross
:06:28. > :06:33.it has been leaked before its formal publication tomorrow, they
:06:33. > :06:39.don't want to talk about it tonight. We have the Tottenham MP, David
:06:39. > :06:44.Lammy, who recently wrote a book about the riots.
:06:44. > :06:49.We have a former speechwriter for David Cameron and work he is with
:06:49. > :06:53.young people. And Pauline Pearce, who confronted rioters in Hackney.
:06:53. > :06:58.Have you learned anything new from this report? No, obviously a lot of
:06:58. > :07:03.the issues, as the MP for Tottenham, are very real to me, and indeed, I
:07:03. > :07:06.talked about after the summer. I think there are issues in relation
:07:06. > :07:10.to worklessness, particularly, issues around materialism and
:07:10. > :07:14.consumerism, fatherlessness, I think, is a real problem. Coming to
:07:14. > :07:20.some of those in a few minutes, there is a lot of waffle in the
:07:20. > :07:23.report, but there are specific injunctions, hard to see how it
:07:23. > :07:26.could be realised, schools teaching moral character, is that doable?
:07:26. > :07:30.one of the institutions responsible for looking after young people,
:07:30. > :07:37.they should be thinking about that. I think it is a remarkable report,
:07:37. > :07:40.because of that agenda. For the first time, in an official public,
:07:40. > :07:43.political report, we have recommendations around character,
:07:43. > :07:47.around the principle that young people make moral choices, and that
:07:47. > :07:51.we should be bolstering the values and attitudes and habits which
:07:51. > :07:54.encourage them to make the right choices, rather than automatically
:07:54. > :07:58.assuming that the only answer is more money, or better system, all
:07:58. > :08:02.of which are important, but this emphasis on character and
:08:02. > :08:08.resilience they are making is key. I don't want to embarrass you, we
:08:08. > :08:13.will remind our viewers of when we saw you last summer. You are in
:08:13. > :08:16.this clip we are going to see now, you are actually confronting the
:08:16. > :08:19.rioters and asking specifically that they behave in a morally
:08:19. > :08:24.different kind of way. Let's have a quick look. She's working hard to
:08:24. > :08:30.make her business work, and you lot want to go and burn it up, for what,
:08:30. > :08:35.just to say you are badman? Now, the key thing here, is how you
:08:35. > :08:39.encourage people to have a different sort of moral character,
:08:39. > :08:44.do you have any ideas about that? We have to change the mind set. It
:08:44. > :08:54.is going to be hard, but because these children have been brought up
:08:54. > :08:57.with no, it is -- not no parental guidance, a lot of discipline has
:08:57. > :09:01.been taken away from parents, and after the riots it was parents
:09:01. > :09:06.bring your children in, how can you, when Littlejohny hasn't been
:09:06. > :09:10.listening to you for ten years, because if you raise your hand he
:09:10. > :09:12.will ring the police, and you have a court case on your hands for
:09:12. > :09:17.disciplining your child. Is there enough about individual
:09:17. > :09:20.responsibility in this analysis? there enough? I think each person's
:09:20. > :09:29.responsible for themselves, when they get to a certain age, you know
:09:29. > :09:33.right from wrong. Now, how do you inculcate that idea? The first
:09:33. > :09:43.thing to say is most of the rioters were not school age. There is a lot
:09:43. > :09:44.
:09:44. > :09:48.of attention on young people, these were adults. At 21 you were
:09:48. > :09:52.responsible for your own actions, the chap who burnt down that
:09:52. > :09:56.building in Croydon was 30. There are deep, cultural, social issues
:09:56. > :10:00.here, and, of course, very poor policing at the beginning of this
:10:00. > :10:03.riot, led to a vacuum in which people felt, I'll just take my
:10:03. > :10:09.opportunity. But the question is, why did they feel no sense of shame,
:10:09. > :10:12.no sense of guilt, no sense of stake in terms of taking that
:10:12. > :10:17.responsibility. That's not, I think, about laying it at the door of
:10:17. > :10:21.schools. I think teachers are hard- pressed as it is, they are doing
:10:21. > :10:25.loads. I do think it is about Government and jobs, and those
:10:25. > :10:30.sorts of things, I also think it is about parents, communities, and
:10:30. > :10:34.actually addressing some of the economic problems in this country,
:10:34. > :10:37.that have gone on under successive Governments, pulling away from
:10:37. > :10:40.communities and families, not supporting them. What can be done
:10:41. > :10:45.to encourage people to take more responsibility for their own
:10:45. > :10:50.behaviour? I think we need to be clearer about what the consequences
:10:50. > :10:56.of behaving badly are. We need to be very straight forward about
:10:56. > :11:00.criminality, and what that institutes, and -- constitutes, and
:11:00. > :11:04.not pretending that what was going on was a political protest. Making
:11:04. > :11:08.it clear that the whole victim mentality, and the victim culture,
:11:08. > :11:11.the cynicism. I work with ex- offenders and young people, many of
:11:11. > :11:15.whom have had terrible upbringings and come through really difficult
:11:15. > :11:18.circumstances, many of them have a really good attitude to their own
:11:18. > :11:21.lives and responsibilities, there is also this huge culture of
:11:21. > :11:24.cynicism. And this great sense that all the institutions in our country
:11:24. > :11:26.is corrupt, everyone from the journalist, the politicians, and
:11:26. > :11:31.the bankers are in it for themselves and out on the take, and
:11:31. > :11:34.there is no sense in which they themselves can be expected to
:11:34. > :11:37.behave better. I'm not blaming the people at the top, but there is a
:11:37. > :11:41.general culture of encouraging people not to be responsibility.
:11:41. > :11:45.You dismiss the idea of victimhood, the report mentions, look at
:11:46. > :11:49.materialism, some extremely clever, very well resourced people, are
:11:49. > :11:55.telling young people that the only way they can respect themselves and
:11:55. > :12:01.be respected by others, is by acquiring bits of clothing, bits of
:12:01. > :12:05.electronic junk, overpriced, which they cannot afford. It is social
:12:05. > :12:09.acceptance, it is breeding that. It is making these children feel and
:12:09. > :12:12.adults, let's face it, there are adults out there that feel the same,
:12:13. > :12:17.you are not accepted in the community or society, lest you are
:12:17. > :12:20.boping down the road in the latest name-brand clothes. It is all about
:12:20. > :12:24.that out there, I don't care what anyone else says, I live there, I
:12:24. > :12:33.see it every day. It is all about, I need a new pair of trainers, I
:12:33. > :12:38.have to get this much and that much. We could get advertisers to be more
:12:38. > :12:41.responsible, but the rest of us learn how to resist advertising and
:12:42. > :12:45.defer gratification, advertising will always encourage us to buy and
:12:45. > :12:49.consume. I have to say, this is the liberalism we have tole challenge.
:12:49. > :12:54.It is the economic liberalism that says you are free to make money,
:12:54. > :12:58.however you want, and there are consequences, and particular
:12:58. > :13:01.consequences in societies like our's, America has a similar
:13:01. > :13:05.problem, at the poorest end, and at the workless end. So it does mean
:13:05. > :13:09.we have got to look again at banning advertising. At
:13:09. > :13:13.particularly for young people. We have to challenge. It is
:13:13. > :13:17.unacceptable for the chief executive of JD Sports to say fine,
:13:17. > :13:20.this helps my brand. There is a problem there, and Government can
:13:20. > :13:24.do and legislate to change that. There probably is a role for
:13:24. > :13:28.Government there, there is a role for our culture, we need to object
:13:28. > :13:31.that sort of brand promotion, it is not for Government to be insisting
:13:31. > :13:35.on how different companies project themselves. What about the point
:13:35. > :13:39.that is made about the 500,000 families, the report talks about
:13:39. > :13:43."bumping along on the bottom of society". That is a very, very
:13:43. > :13:47.significant number of people, isn't it? For me, personally, I'm glad
:13:47. > :13:50.they have accepted that this report has shown that. Because it is
:13:51. > :13:57.nothing short of what I have been saying from day one on every
:13:57. > :14:02.interview I have had, since the riots. It is about, there are very
:14:02. > :14:07.poor class families out there, really scraping along to make ends
:14:07. > :14:11.meet. And the cuts haven't made things any easier on them. I think
:14:11. > :14:16.there is a group of working poor, parents who actually do care, but
:14:16. > :14:20.are working really long hours, often in two jobs, security guard
:14:20. > :14:25.and minicab driver, and then there are a group of workless poor, it is
:14:25. > :14:28.not just worklessness for the children, it is the parents, it is
:14:28. > :14:32.successive generations. That is what combines areas like Tottenham,
:14:32. > :14:37.with areas like Salford, and other parts of the country, where we saw
:14:37. > :14:45.riots. Successive generations. poverty doesn't he can cues moral
:14:45. > :14:48.judgment? It doesn't, it is actual -- Excuse moral judgment?
:14:48. > :14:51.doesn't, for every rioter there were hundreds who did not riot,
:14:51. > :14:56.that is a success story. That is why I'm nervous about the
:14:56. > :15:01.assumption that we can blame it all on schools. In Tottenham we got the
:15:01. > :15:05.best GCSE and A-level results last summer, nobody chose to cover it.
:15:05. > :15:08.Nevertheless, it does feel like these entrenched problems, in
:15:08. > :15:11.England particularly, are getting worse, not better. Unless we are
:15:12. > :15:16.serious in addressing it. This shouldn't just be another report
:15:16. > :15:20.that festers and we do nothing about it, we will see further
:15:20. > :15:23.unrest, I'm absolutely sure about that. On the families policy, the
:15:23. > :15:29.report seems to make a distinction between the troubled families, that
:15:29. > :15:33.the Government is targeted, and the 500,000 families that are bumping
:15:33. > :15:37.along the bottom. I can't believe there is a huge distinction between
:15:37. > :15:41.them. The Government's Troubled Families Programme, I think, is on
:15:41. > :15:44.the right tracks, trying to consolidate all the services and
:15:44. > :15:47.all the budgets, all the professional agencies, which tinker
:15:47. > :15:51.about with the lives of very difficult circumstances for
:15:51. > :15:55.families, and bringing it together. It might be a technocratic response,
:15:55. > :15:58.I believe ultimately it is the you will culture we need to address,
:15:58. > :16:02.but Government is deeply involved in the lives of these families,
:16:02. > :16:04.they are on the right track. We will leave it there. Thank you
:16:04. > :16:08.very much. The Government has either come up
:16:08. > :16:11.with a brilliant way of liberating the economy from a lot of
:16:11. > :16:15.unnecessary restrictions, or it has put all sorts of places in the land
:16:15. > :16:19.at risk of bulldozers and concrete mixers. The headlines of the new
:16:19. > :16:24.planning laws are simple enough to right, a bonfire of regulation, a
:16:24. > :16:29.system of clear priorities, and all implemented at once. The problem,
:16:29. > :16:32.as ever, is interpretation, what do words like "sustainable
:16:32. > :16:42.development", which is what's supposed to be the underlying
:16:42. > :16:54.
:16:54. > :16:59.principle, actually mean. Before we Sir Frederick Osborn was one of the
:16:59. > :17:03.founders of welling garden city, in its time a pioneer town. It was
:17:03. > :17:11.planned 50 years ago, to give a better life to people from the
:17:11. > :17:15.crowded cities. Today urban planning is a
:17:15. > :17:18.desiccated endurance test, but it was, a pleasurable past time. In
:17:18. > :17:23.the 90 years since Sir Frederick was at it, the rate of house
:17:23. > :17:27.building has not recovered. Not perfect, but popular, that is
:17:27. > :17:35.how David Cameron described places like this, we willing garden city,
:17:35. > :17:40.he wants more such -- -- he wants more such towns built. When the
:17:40. > :17:44.planning laws were less strict in the 1950s, people could build nice
:17:44. > :17:50.places to live. The new laws today won't just apply to existing towns
:17:50. > :17:55.but new communities as well. People are fearful of that. A lot of it is
:17:55. > :17:59.imprecise, and open to subjective judgment, you will have arguments
:17:59. > :18:04.between local authorities and councils, it could be a problem.
:18:04. > :18:07.What is our instinct for a Government wanting this to be a
:18:07. > :18:10.pro-growth policy? I have no problem with pro-growth, it needs
:18:10. > :18:14.to be tempered with consideration about what impact their policies
:18:14. > :18:16.are having on a community in which it is applied. Today the Government
:18:16. > :18:21.think they have come up with something their critics will buy,
:18:21. > :18:24.the Chancellor was unrepentant, it is a pro-growth Government. When I
:18:24. > :18:28.launched the growth strategy last year, I said planning reform was a
:18:28. > :18:32.critical party of it, a central measure. A year later we have, with
:18:32. > :18:37.all the challenges of making sure it is properly consulted on and so
:18:37. > :18:40.on, implemented a policy that comes into effect today. No-one, to my
:18:40. > :18:47.knowledge, has changed planning rules in this country in a
:18:47. > :18:51.generation as quickly as we have. Before contemplating digs up green
:18:51. > :18:54.field, there is now guidance that brownfield sites and town centres
:18:55. > :18:59.must be built on first. There is also a statement that the
:18:59. > :19:02.countryside has an intrinsic value, something not set out before. But
:19:02. > :19:11.the presumption in favour of sustainable development remains.
:19:12. > :19:16.The Treasury insists its critics have only really run expanded
:19:16. > :19:24.definitions. Do these 50 pages do enough for the foot soldiers of
:19:25. > :19:30.Osborne,. My concern is it will get mixed up with localism and a whole
:19:30. > :19:36.range of other debates. I see no sign or indication that the level
:19:36. > :19:41.of bureaucracy will be reduced. home of shredded wheat was in this
:19:41. > :19:44.town, and there was a push to turn the old HQ into Tesco's, it was
:19:44. > :19:54.blocked by locals, and its champions don't think today's
:19:54. > :19:57.reforms would change that decision. Instead, one of the main critics,
:19:57. > :20:02.the National Trust, declared, fairly quickly, they were happy
:20:02. > :20:08.with the new reforms. The Campaign to Protect Rural England is too.
:20:08. > :20:13.There was definitely proposals to build four or five thousand houses
:20:13. > :20:20.on these fields there. You sound upbeat, but there is that phrase,
:20:20. > :20:23."the presumption of sustainable building". It was explained very
:20:23. > :20:27.clearly. Even though the phrase is there? It is the golden thread
:20:27. > :20:32.running through the planning policy, is the "presumption of sustainable
:20:32. > :20:35.development", the first worry is there is not a serious definition
:20:35. > :20:39.of sustainable, we we know what it means, but there is the presumption
:20:39. > :20:43.in favour of development, it is a growth tool, it is all about the
:20:43. > :20:46.economic growth. Our concern has always been that economic growth
:20:46. > :20:54.becomes paramount over everything else, including looking after
:20:54. > :20:58.beautiful countryside like this. Only years ahead of Welling Garden
:20:58. > :21:04.City's centinary, the Government is trying to mimic the house building
:21:04. > :21:09.frenzy of that era. The critics have their concerns but have got
:21:09. > :21:19.enough to stay quiet. The romantic utopia's the of the
:21:19. > :21:19.
:21:20. > :21:23.20s, to the not so pro-growth policy of the 2012.
:21:23. > :21:26.We have our guests with us. The last time you were on, you said you
:21:26. > :21:30.had a whole pile of stores you wanted to open, but planning was
:21:30. > :21:34.holding you back, will this framework, which is now being
:21:34. > :21:37.implemented, change that? Yes, it will. It will make a big difference.
:21:37. > :21:40.What it will mean is people will have to have a good reason to say
:21:40. > :21:44.no. There are lots of good reasons to say no, but in the past it has
:21:44. > :21:48.been no is the answer, now you come and tell me why you should create
:21:49. > :21:52.jobs and this new job. Are these changes to the policy announced
:21:52. > :21:58.today sufficient to persuade you it is worth giving a whirl to? Yes,
:21:58. > :22:02.frankly, we had a dreadful document before. It was really a cowboy's
:22:02. > :22:04.charter, frankly, we had a huge campaign about it, the Government
:22:04. > :22:08.listened. They have made substantive changes, real changes.
:22:08. > :22:11.The difference of tone in the document, it reads differently t
:22:11. > :22:14.has not been written by a lobbyist but a planner. It is a good
:22:14. > :22:19.document. A lot of things we are worried about, we can talk about
:22:19. > :22:22.those, basic clo we are supportive. What are you wore -- Basically we
:22:22. > :22:25.are supportive. What are you worried about? The concept you were
:22:25. > :22:31.talking about, sustainable development. I wonder if you both
:22:31. > :22:36.understand the same thing by it? The document expands it drapbl
:22:36. > :22:44.mattically, I still -- Dramatically. I think there will be litigation
:22:44. > :22:47.galore about it, anyone who thinks it will shorten the planning policy,
:22:47. > :22:53.it won't. What do you understand the sustainable development to
:22:53. > :22:56.mean? I'm not sure about the word "sustainable". Why are you in
:22:56. > :22:59.favour of the policy? I think development creates jobs and the
:22:59. > :23:02.homes we need, that will be vital to get the economy going. If you
:23:02. > :23:06.ask me what I think sustainable means and what the Government mean
:23:07. > :23:12.by it, I think they mean something in 50 years time we will look at
:23:12. > :23:15.and say I'm glad we built that. you share this view that
:23:15. > :23:19.development is absolutely key to growth? There is no evidence at all,
:23:19. > :23:23.there is no evidence that the planning system in Britain
:23:23. > :23:27.constrained growth. I'm sure Simon could find cases where he was
:23:27. > :23:31.infuriated by being turned down. I have been turned down in my time.
:23:31. > :23:36.Sometimes for a perfectly good reason, that is not planning, it is
:23:36. > :23:42.a bad original proposal. Broadly speaking, 90% of all applications
:23:42. > :23:48.get approved. The system is not rotten. What was bad was the delay
:23:48. > :23:53.and the pernickityness of some of the controls. There were detailed
:23:53. > :23:57.controls imposed by planners on the form of the building. It was
:23:57. > :24:01.clearly pro-growth to buy a development in favour of urban
:24:01. > :24:05.renewal. The previous Government was against that. It actually --
:24:05. > :24:11.previous development was against that. It removed the presumption
:24:11. > :24:14.and has been reinstated. If the National Trust and various others
:24:14. > :24:22.are in favour of the new policy, I wonder if it is as key to growth as
:24:23. > :24:29.you seem to suggest? It is key to growth I think there was: It is
:24:29. > :24:34.funny that you have come completely contradicty conclusions? This was
:24:34. > :24:41.never the threat to the the countryside that people thought it
:24:41. > :24:46.was. Planning is an enormous barrier to growth. You may say it
:24:46. > :24:50.is not, I have 15 shops I would like to open on brownfield sites,
:24:50. > :24:54.and would have 1,000 jobs for people, and I can't do it because
:24:54. > :25:00.of planning. You are saying it is not holding back growth, but it is.
:25:00. > :25:04.It is holding back your shops, one could say 12 shops are closing down
:25:04. > :25:09.for all of your shops. Planning is not about profit, it is about the
:25:09. > :25:13.best way to allocate land. I said growth and jobs, not profit. I hope
:25:14. > :25:17.in your case it is profitable, but either way, the essence of this
:25:17. > :25:20.thing is plan, the previous development was effectively a
:25:20. > :25:22.building permit system, like in Ireland or Spain. It was a bad
:25:23. > :25:26.document. You thought it was terrific, I thought it was dreadful.
:25:26. > :25:30.It is gone. We now have a planning- based approach, which is what we
:25:30. > :25:34.had before, which is the right way of approaching this. It is nothing
:25:34. > :25:39.to do with growth. We are both in favour of growth, I think all
:25:39. > :25:42.development is favour of growth, and conservation is in favour of
:25:42. > :25:46.growth. Growth happens when the demand in the economy is right. Our
:25:46. > :25:50.concern was to protect the countryside. I think this document
:25:50. > :25:54.more protects the countryside than was the case before. More protects
:25:54. > :25:57.the countryside, yet you believe it is critical to growth? Absolutely,
:25:57. > :26:01.I don't believe that actually concreting over the countryside was
:26:01. > :26:04.what growth is all about. There may be a small amount of unattractive
:26:04. > :26:07.countryside that is required for growth. What do you think has
:26:07. > :26:13.changed in this legislation? don't think a great deal has
:26:13. > :26:17.changed. The protection for green belt was there, and areas of
:26:18. > :26:22.outstanding natural beauty is there. Things like protected playing field
:26:22. > :26:26.and the value to countryside in its own right has an added. It shifts
:26:26. > :26:32.the burp, that is now on the planner d burden of proop, that is
:26:32. > :26:38.on the planner to find a good reason to -- the burden of proof,
:26:38. > :26:40.the onus is on the planner to find a good reason to say no. There was
:26:40. > :26:45.always a presumption in favour of development, the question was did
:26:45. > :26:49.it conform to the plan. The problem is planning was fragmented under
:26:49. > :26:51.the last Government, they dissolved most of planning. We have a
:26:51. > :26:54.situation where the new document says there has to be plan, get on
:26:54. > :26:58.with it and do it in the next year. That is a major requirement for
:26:58. > :27:01.everybody. Under the plan, which can be a pro-growth plan, there is
:27:01. > :27:04.no problem there, the normal conflicts you have, in any
:27:04. > :27:09.community, about the use of land, should be resolved in a certain way.
:27:09. > :27:14.In my view, in favour of urban renewal, rather than countryside
:27:14. > :27:17.building. It should be in favour of respecting the countryside, the
:27:17. > :27:21.intrinsic value of the countryside, and it should be sustainable, in a
:27:21. > :27:23.sense you are using existing infrastructure. All these things
:27:23. > :27:28.have been done now there will be a hellish amount of lawyers, there
:27:28. > :27:31.will be an awful lot of delay, it won't be much cheaper, but it is
:27:31. > :27:35.better than it used to be. proof of the pudding will be in the
:27:35. > :27:38.eating, or in the courts, or planning tribunals. Thank you very
:27:38. > :27:42.much. When do you reckon the Chancellor
:27:42. > :27:46.of the Exchequer, George Osborne, last had a pasty from the high
:27:46. > :27:53.street baker Greggs, we will find now the a moment. This unearth
:27:53. > :27:57.shattering revelation is of passing interest, because last year's
:27:57. > :28:00.budget slapped money on warm meat pies and common delicacies, the
:28:00. > :28:03.boss of Greggs went to the Treasury today to put them right, at the
:28:03. > :28:09.same time Mr Osborne was answering this killer question at a select
:28:09. > :28:15.committee hearing on the budget. When's the last time you bought a
:28:15. > :28:22.pastie in Greggs. Look, I can't remember the last time I bought a
:28:22. > :28:30.pastie in Greggs. That kind of sums it up. When was the last time?
:28:30. > :28:36.you are putting up the price of hot pasties in Greggs, if I buy a
:28:36. > :28:43.pastie from Greggs that is oaked hot, but by the time it gets in the
:28:43. > :28:51.paper bag and I take it away it is cold, will it be VATable or not?
:28:51. > :28:54.it is cold, when you buy it, it will not be. Ken McMeikan is the
:28:54. > :28:57.boss of Greggs, the bakery, is here, he spent the afternoon in the
:28:57. > :29:05.Treasury. What did you tell them was the reason why you shouldn't be
:29:05. > :29:09.subject to VAT on your pasties? We're very clear, freshly baked
:29:09. > :29:14.bakery food has not been subject to VAT. We currently pay VAT on hot
:29:15. > :29:21.food, but bakery food, freshly baked in our shops, it is cooled
:29:21. > :29:29.down and not kept hot, we don't believe, should be subject to VAT,
:29:29. > :29:33.and was previously he can empted it from it -- he can cemented from it
:29:33. > :29:36.before. Are you saying there is something uniquely privileged about
:29:36. > :29:41.your pasties? We are saying the bakery industry will be
:29:41. > :29:46.significantly impacted by a product, we believe, best made fresh, in our
:29:46. > :29:50.shops, baked in an oven, and cooled down and served for our customer,
:29:50. > :29:54.this tax will put 20% on the price of save rees that were previously
:29:54. > :29:58.not subject to VAT and shouldn't be subject to VAT. If you buy a
:29:58. > :30:02.McDonalds, that is subject to VAT, isn't it? It is, and in the same
:30:02. > :30:07.way we have our hot sandwiches, which we keep hot. Your bacon rolls
:30:07. > :30:13.are subject to VAT? They are, correct. Absolutely right,
:30:13. > :30:18.McDonalds will keep their's hot and serve their product hot. We on our
:30:18. > :30:22.savourys offer our customers a freshly-baked savoury that is not
:30:22. > :30:26.guaranteed hot. What is so special about a sausage roll or pastie?
:30:26. > :30:31.point about it is, the best way as a quality baker is to make them
:30:31. > :30:35.fresh and cool them down and serve them to customers. That guarantees
:30:35. > :30:39.for the customer the best and freshest project. We can only do
:30:39. > :30:44.that by making the product in the shop and allowing it to cool down.
:30:44. > :30:49.We don't keep it heated to serve it as a hot product, we can't
:30:49. > :30:52.guarantee if it is hot. The subject around whether a customer should
:30:52. > :30:56.pay VAT on it or not is irrelevant, they shouldn't. It is not designed
:30:56. > :31:02.as a hot product. Do you think the Chancellor really understands the
:31:02. > :31:09.Cornish pastie problem? No, I think they have, to a degree, lost touch
:31:10. > :31:15.with the issue here. That for ordinary, hard working families,
:31:15. > :31:22.putting 20% on a product that is freshly baked, will make a severe
:31:22. > :31:25.dent in their pockets, at a time when they can ill-afford it. Not
:31:25. > :31:29.only should this not have happened, the former Chancellor of the
:31:29. > :31:33.Exchequer, Lawson, wrote to the Treasury back in 1984, said it
:31:33. > :31:37.shouldn't be subject to VAT for freshly baked product. The other
:31:37. > :31:40.issue you have here, which the Government haven't understood, they
:31:40. > :31:44.are talking about trying to simplify something, they will make
:31:45. > :31:50.huge complexties in the definition of what is ambient air temperature,
:31:50. > :31:54.and are we expected now to almost temperature probe every single
:31:54. > :31:57.product we sell. Clearly not, you have to make an estimate of how
:31:57. > :32:01.many are hot and cold. The political point is why Nigel Lawson
:32:01. > :32:08.had this instinctive understanding of the ordinary person's liking for
:32:08. > :32:12.a meat pie or something, and George Osborne doesn't? Well, clearly, we
:32:12. > :32:16.know that Nigel Lawson had a very different view, George Osborne, I
:32:16. > :32:19.think, would benefit from coming and spending time with us and our
:32:20. > :32:23.customers and actually seeing, operationally, why we believe, as
:32:23. > :32:27.bakers, making a freshly baked product is different from trying to
:32:27. > :32:32.sell a hot product, which we already pay VAT on. Do you think
:32:33. > :32:36.the Treasury will change their minds on it? I hope for the bake of
:32:36. > :32:40.the baking industry they do. you did they give you any
:32:40. > :32:44.indication they would change their minds? We gave them plenty to think
:32:44. > :32:48.about today. I have reassured them that I will categorically campaign
:32:48. > :32:51.on behalf of the UK consumer and the bakery industry, I feel there
:32:51. > :32:58.will be job losses and closure of businesses as a result of it.
:32:58. > :33:03.on, you made �60 million profit last year? We made �53.1 million,
:33:03. > :33:09.we are the largest bakery in the UK, with a great reputation for value.
:33:09. > :33:13.We deliver profits because of great tasting, freshly baked products and
:33:13. > :33:17.we do it well. We try to keep the price of food down low for cows
:33:17. > :33:24.tomorrow mers. If you were watching this time last night, you will have
:33:24. > :33:28.seen the German Chancellor, Angela Merkel, jauntly slugging off the
:33:28. > :33:33.name-calling that has haunted her country for decades. There are
:33:33. > :33:39.still Nazi in Germany, the question for many is how many, the security
:33:39. > :33:45.sources are scrambling to track down and arrest far right fugutives,
:33:45. > :33:55.after discovering a neo-Nazi cell murdered nine people over as many
:33:55. > :33:57.
:33:57. > :34:07.years. This report contains strong, racial low offensive language. --
:34:07. > :34:08.
:34:08. > :34:12.The number of armed and violent neo-Nazis is on the rise. The far
:34:12. > :34:17.right movement is diversifying, attracting growing numbers of
:34:17. > :34:20.students and middle-class professionals.
:34:20. > :34:28.Revelations of mass murder and hate crimes forced the German
:34:28. > :34:32.authorities to admit they have done too little for too long.
:34:32. > :34:41.Is Germany's Nazi past preventing it from fighting right-wing
:34:41. > :34:45.extremism now? Last November, among the wreckage
:34:45. > :34:53.of this burnt out flat, police uncovered one of the biggest
:34:53. > :34:57.scandals of Germany's post-war history. The home had been to these
:34:57. > :35:00.three known neo-Nazi activists, on the run for years. Remaining at
:35:00. > :35:07.large, despite carrying out, by their own admission, at least nine
:35:07. > :35:11.murders and a number of bombings. This woman turned herself into the
:35:11. > :35:15.police, her acomplises were found dead in a van, in an apparent
:35:15. > :35:19.double suicide. Police found a version of monopoly
:35:20. > :35:23.that the woman had been selling. Germany's Intelligence Service
:35:23. > :35:33.showed Newsnight the name. Concentration camps are the most
:35:33. > :35:37.desirable properties on the board. This is what shocked the German
:35:37. > :35:45.public most, the trio left this home made DVD, rather bizarrely
:35:46. > :35:49.using the Pink Pan they are cartoon character, to publicise that they
:35:50. > :35:52.had been a killing spree of racially motivated murders
:35:52. > :35:59.nationwide. The trio said they acted to serve the German people
:35:59. > :36:04.and their country. They sign off as a National
:36:04. > :36:07.Socialist Underground, or NSU, echoing the National Associationism
:36:07. > :36:14.of Hitler's Germany. Police say they had no idea.
:36:14. > :36:18.They blamed those murders on the Turkish Mafia.
:36:18. > :36:20.Newsnight has seen a secret internal report, revealing serious
:36:20. > :36:24.blunders by law enforcement agencies.
:36:24. > :36:27.They had the group under close surveillance for years, but never
:36:27. > :36:31.took decisive action, allowing them to go into hiding, and remain
:36:31. > :36:41.underground. Why weren't they stopped before
:36:41. > :36:43.
:36:43. > :36:53.they began to kill? In this moment, in my eyes, it was
:36:53. > :37:02.
:37:02. > :37:07.necessary to arrest those people, at once. In my eyes. Why not?
:37:07. > :37:10.can't explain it, I can't explain it. We thought we had two or three
:37:10. > :37:16.times, it was not possible to arrest them. I can't explain it,
:37:16. > :37:22.don't ask me. We did keep asking him, but he had
:37:22. > :37:25.no answers for us. Allegations have been made in Germany, not just of
:37:25. > :37:29.incompetence, but right-wing sympathies inside the country's
:37:29. > :37:37.Secret Services and police force. Something the institutions
:37:37. > :37:40.vehemently deny. Here in Germany it is impossible to discuss far right,
:37:40. > :37:46.even nationalist activity in isolation, outside the context of
:37:46. > :37:51.this country's Nazi past. Germany's post-war constitution was very much
:37:51. > :37:54.written in the vein of "never again", the story of the
:37:54. > :37:59.nationalist socialist underground throws up disturbing questions.
:37:59. > :38:04.Just how is it that a militant group of Neo-Nazis was allowed to
:38:04. > :38:06.flourish, and just how popular and how powerful are the far right, and
:38:06. > :38:09.nationalist extremists in Germany today?
:38:09. > :38:14.Human rights groups say more than 180 people have been killed in
:38:14. > :38:19.right-wing attacks in Germany over the last 20 years.
:38:19. > :38:23.Neo-Nazis have murdered more people in post-war Germany, than any other
:38:23. > :38:27.single group, including Islamists and the far left. This is not
:38:27. > :38:32.reflected in official data. The German Government admits mistakes
:38:32. > :38:35.have been made. Martin is a former Neo-Nazi leader, he has now left
:38:35. > :38:40.the movement and asked us to hide his identity.
:38:40. > :38:45.He says the Neo-Nazi trio's murderous exploits should have come
:38:45. > :38:48.as no surprise. TRANSLATION: militant scene has always said we
:38:48. > :38:54.need people who are willing and able and trained, in case it comes
:38:54. > :38:58.to civil war. The scene is armed, it is military. This does lead to
:38:58. > :39:03.people being killed. Weapons training is carried out in secret,
:39:03. > :39:07.in the Arab world, for instance, with freedom movements there. The
:39:07. > :39:13.right-wing scene sees itself as a freedom movement.
:39:13. > :39:15.Martin was mart part of a growing movement of -- part of a growing
:39:15. > :39:20.movement of secret jif far right groups in Germany, known as the
:39:20. > :39:24.Free Forces. No longer rooted in the past, these groups tend not to
:39:24. > :39:29.call themselves Nazi, or Neo-Nazi, but rather the Free Forces. They
:39:29. > :39:32.are attracting a new crowd, students, middle-classes and
:39:32. > :39:36.intellectuals. They are harnessing social media, and using new modern
:39:36. > :39:39.forms and reasons for protest. When it comes to them one intelligence
:39:39. > :39:49.agent told me that the Security Services here in Germany really are
:39:49. > :40:01.
:40:01. > :40:05.This group, The Immortals, is part of the new crowd. Anti-
:40:05. > :40:15.globalisation, anti-capitalist, and anti-democratic, they warn of the
:40:15. > :40:16.
:40:16. > :40:20.impending extinction of the German Hard for the authorities to catch,
:40:20. > :40:24.they use text messaging to organise spontaneous demos across the
:40:24. > :40:32.country, like this one, in their propaganda video. After 15 minutes
:40:32. > :40:37.on the street, they have gone. TRANSLATION: The leadership is
:40:37. > :40:40.always trying to attract members of the called "upper-classs" students
:40:40. > :40:43.who one day can act as lawyers or doctors for the scene, really do
:40:43. > :40:47.something to help the movement. You would never imagine those sorts of
:40:47. > :40:51.people supported the far right, and they may deny their affiliation in
:40:51. > :41:01.public, but they are very much part of the movement. More so now than
:41:01. > :41:05.
:41:05. > :41:14.ever before. What exactly do they want, far right supporters are
:41:14. > :41:21.camera shy, they say they are looked for by police. We went to
:41:21. > :41:28.the most famous Neo-Nazi pub to see if anyone would be tempted to talk.
:41:28. > :41:33.After a few cocktails, the former head of a banned Neo-Nazi group sat
:41:33. > :41:37.down with us. TRANSLATION: Who are we? We are nationalists, we care
:41:37. > :41:41.deeply about the fatherland, we don't like the state that exists
:41:41. > :41:45.here now, we want to rebuild the country, for our brothers and
:41:45. > :41:52.sisters, the German people. We want to protect our culture, country and
:41:52. > :41:57.religion. In Britain you too are proud of your country. Here in
:41:57. > :42:01.Germany I am a second class citizen, we live with war guilt here in
:42:02. > :42:07.Germany. Others get preferential treatment, outsiders. Those who say
:42:07. > :42:13.this pub is full of Nazis, how do they know, they try to ban us.
:42:13. > :42:18.British owner of the pub asked us to hide his identity to protect his
:42:18. > :42:22.family. He was amongst many that who complained about strict German
:42:22. > :42:25.laws used to persecute the far right? If the German Government
:42:26. > :42:30.make laws that you can't express your freedom of speech, there will
:42:30. > :42:36.be an uprising, it will happen. Just because it will be forbidden.
:42:36. > :42:39.It will happen. If they let these laws go, then people will be a lot
:42:39. > :42:45.more freer, they will say what they think, there will be more
:42:45. > :42:51.discussion. They won't have as many political problems as they do today.
:42:51. > :42:56.What many law makers say they don't like, is that the far right rejects
:42:56. > :43:03.the German federal Republic, the nationalists want a new order in
:43:03. > :43:07.Germany, non-democratic, non- multicultural.
:43:07. > :43:10.In the meantime, some are establishing what they call
:43:11. > :43:17.national liberated zones, dotted across the country.
:43:17. > :43:21.We are on our way to Jamel, it is the only village that really has
:43:21. > :43:24.been completely taken over by Neo- Nazis in Germany to date. They have
:43:24. > :43:32.all the houses now except for one. They have pretty much forced out
:43:32. > :43:37.all the other villagers. In the middle of the village is
:43:37. > :43:41.this Nazi Germany-styled mural, proclaiming the area is free,
:43:41. > :43:46.social and national. The German authorities recently forced the
:43:46. > :43:50.villagers to take down a sign post pointing towards Hitler's birth
:43:50. > :43:54.place. People here weren't particularly pleased to see us, or
:43:54. > :43:59.talk to us. Prior to coming here I tried to organise an interview with
:43:59. > :44:05.the leading family of the village. They weren't keen on our camera.
:44:05. > :44:08.You find liberated zones in German towns and cities too. There have
:44:08. > :44:12.been cases of riots, arson and murder, in the far right efforts to
:44:12. > :44:17.cleanse those areas, a couple of streets, or a sprawling housing
:44:17. > :44:24.estate, getting rid of all those they regard as political enemies,
:44:24. > :44:27.immigrants, ethnic minorities, liberals or left-wingers. Far right
:44:27. > :44:30.groups also run summer camps for children and families like this one
:44:30. > :44:36.in north Germany, filmed a few years ago. This youth organisation
:44:36. > :44:41.was later banned. The German Interior Ministry said
:44:41. > :44:45.it was indoctrinating children in Nazi ideology, as well as giving
:44:45. > :44:48.them military training. But the courtship of youngsters continues.
:44:48. > :44:53.The nationalists run youth clubs and sports clubs. They are playing
:44:53. > :44:59.the social card in the current economic Croy sis, offering welfare
:44:59. > :45:03.advice, and family assist -- crisis, offering welfare advice and family
:45:03. > :45:06.assistance, hoping to attract new supporters. The NPD is the legal
:45:06. > :45:12.political will of the far right, it has elected representatives in two
:45:12. > :45:17.out of Germany's 16 state parliaments.
:45:17. > :45:26.Udo Pastoerss is the deputy leader of the MPD nationwide, and its
:45:26. > :45:31.leader, in the regional parliament. TRANSLATION: German children need
:45:32. > :45:36.the land. We want to keep the German people alive, with our own
:45:36. > :45:41.biological vitality. So that tomorrow, and the day after,
:45:41. > :45:46.Germany still earns the name Germany, because imagine a country
:45:46. > :45:56.called Germany, that is filled only with Africans, with us importing
:45:56. > :45:56.
:45:56. > :46:01.nice little sweet ligger children. The German Government says it is
:46:01. > :46:08.looking to ban the N PD, because of the party's association with
:46:08. > :46:13.extremists, its alleged links with the Neo-Nazi killer trio, and the
:46:13. > :46:22.questioning of the Holocaust. I asked Udo Pastoerss what he thought
:46:22. > :46:29.of Hitler? TRANSLATION: Look here, if one speaks about a historical
:46:29. > :46:32.figure, it is impossible to do so during a short interview. REPORTER:
:46:32. > :46:38.I could asking many people what they thought about Hitler and they
:46:38. > :46:43.would answer in a few short words? TRANSLATION: Those are emotions,
:46:44. > :46:50.not facts. REPORTER: But you are totally avoiding my question, what
:46:50. > :46:54.do you think of Hitler and what of the six million Jews? TRANSLATION:
:46:54. > :46:59.Let me point out to you that in Germany you are punishable by law
:46:59. > :47:03.if you don't accept the authorities' version of what
:47:03. > :47:13.happened at Auschwitz, I ask for your understanding, I do not wish
:47:13. > :47:17.to talk about these issues, I do not live in a free country.
:47:17. > :47:21.German nationalists say they represent the German people. Most
:47:21. > :47:26.Germans insist they certainly do not.
:47:26. > :47:32.But statistics indicate the eurocrisis, and wider economic woes,
:47:32. > :47:39.means increasing numbers are sympathetic to the anti-immigrant,
:47:39. > :47:44."Germans-first" message, espoused by the right.
:47:44. > :47:49.This was the state memorial service, last month, for the victims of the
:47:49. > :47:53.National Socialist Underground. Just a few days before, more than
:47:53. > :47:57.2,000 Neo-Nazis marched in Dresden. At the memorial there was a
:47:57. > :48:01.profound sense of remorse. With political promises to crackdown on
:48:01. > :48:06.the far right. But as the story fades from the national headlines,
:48:06. > :48:11.human rights groups say they are concerned the Neo-Nazi issue will
:48:11. > :48:15.be neglected again. It is a minority movement, but Germany's
:48:15. > :48:25.nationalists, and the called Free Forces, are a force that needs to
:48:25. > :48:28.be dealt with. The question is how? Tomorrow night we will discuss what
:48:28. > :48:32.impact Germany's recent past has had on its ability to take a
:48:32. > :48:36.leading role in Europe. That's it, the fat lady has sung, the well is
:48:36. > :48:46.dry, the washing machine of news has reached its final spin cycle,
:48:46. > :49:11.
:49:11. > :49:14.Hello, more warm sunshine to come on Wednesday. But first thing it is
:49:14. > :49:20.going to be a bit chilly, temperatures are falling away
:49:20. > :49:23.sharply, one or two mist and fog patches, they will clear, then
:49:23. > :49:26.sunshine. Northern Scotland it will be clear. The sunshine will lift
:49:26. > :49:32.the temperatures in England. Starting below freezing in rural
:49:32. > :49:36.areas, by the afternoon above 20 degrees, 23 in some parts of
:49:36. > :49:41.eastern England. Further west 21 likely to be the top temperature. A
:49:41. > :49:44.little cooler around the coast, a beautiful spring day. Lots of
:49:44. > :49:48.sunshine around south-west England, sunny skies across much of Wales
:49:48. > :49:55.and North West England, it is a similar picture in Northern Ireland.
:49:55. > :49:59.Chilly by the afternoon, 19 in Belfast, and in May it may exceed
:49:59. > :50:04.the local records. A warm, sunny day across most of Scotland, cloud
:50:04. > :50:08.across the far north, a spot or two of rain here. Increasing amounts of
:50:08. > :50:12.cloud for the rest of the week, that will have an impact on the
:50:12. > :50:16.temperatures, still well above average.
:50:16. > :50:19.Still we could reach 20 degrees or more in parts of the thought.
:50:19. > :50:23.Plenty of sunshine after a chilly start. Again it may be just a bit
:50:23. > :50:27.of mist and fog on Thursday morning. Increasing cloud over Scotland,