:00:10. > :00:14.Want your car's fuel tank topped up, brought in some emergency supplies?
:00:14. > :00:18.We have, it is not what you expect to be told by a Government that
:00:18. > :00:22.says there is no need to panic. How likely are fuel tanker drivers to
:00:22. > :00:26.strike, and what is the sensible citizen to do? The greater the
:00:26. > :00:32.extent to which people have fuel in their vehicles, with maybe a little
:00:32. > :00:37.bit in the garage as well, in ag erry can, the longer we will be
:00:37. > :00:42.able to keep things go. Have the transport minister and Labour's
:00:42. > :00:50.Treasury spokesman filled up today. Discover the Ed Balls diet.
:00:50. > :00:54.there, can we get eight sausage rolls, please? An entirely
:00:54. > :00:58.spontaneous by Labour Party big wigs, to the pie shop. What does
:00:58. > :01:02.pastygate tell us about the state of British politics. And this is
:01:02. > :01:06.what the European authorities think work ought to look like, even some
:01:06. > :01:09.Lib Dem ministers say the latest orders about working hours are
:01:09. > :01:13.barmy. Germany marches to a different beat
:01:13. > :01:17.these days, how does the most powerful nation in Europe feel
:01:17. > :01:21.about the role of leader? Especially in light of its troubled
:01:21. > :01:25.modern history. If I talk to my own father, he says we really have to
:01:25. > :01:30.protect with, you know it is our responsibility, the European idea.
:01:30. > :01:40.But if I speak to my younger cousin, she's 20, she's like, let them go,
:01:40. > :01:41.
:01:41. > :01:45.it is too much money. Faced with what might turn out to
:01:45. > :01:50.be a national emergency, Governments usually try to pour oil
:01:50. > :01:54.on troubled waters. Don't panic, is the general advice, yet today,
:01:54. > :01:58.couldn't fronted with a possible strike by oil tanker drivers, that
:01:58. > :02:05.hasn't even been called yet, ministers seemed to say rather the
:02:05. > :02:08.reverse, and by advising people to keep petrol ing erry cans in
:02:08. > :02:11.garages, they brought down the wrath of the health and safety
:02:11. > :02:16.business. I have family at home, two children
:02:16. > :02:19.I never see because I'm away from home Monday to Friday. Only home at
:02:19. > :02:25.weekends. I have a 16-year-old daughter, so I have not really seen
:02:26. > :02:29.her growing up. I have always been on the road. Working.
:02:29. > :02:35.David McCamon is a licensed oil tanker driver, his job is to
:02:35. > :02:39.collect polluted run-off from garage forecourts, and take it away
:02:39. > :02:43.for safe disposal. From his cab he has a clear view of an industry,
:02:43. > :02:50.which he says, has changed for the worse.
:02:50. > :02:54.It is hard to put a finger on it, really. Standards are slipping,
:02:54. > :02:58.because everybody is out to make money. The quicker things get done,
:02:58. > :03:01.the more money people are making. With things like that, it is more
:03:01. > :03:06.safety than anything else, it should be adhered to. You think
:03:06. > :03:09.drivers should be treated differently? Yes, treated better,
:03:09. > :03:13.any way. Because it is the bottom of the
:03:13. > :03:19.pile, that is the ones delivering all the fuel.
:03:19. > :03:27.The dispute is not about pay, according to Unite, whose members
:03:27. > :03:30.supply fuel to 90% of the UK's forecourts, 2,000 of them voted to
:03:30. > :03:33.demand improved conditions, by highlighting poor training as an
:03:33. > :03:38.issue, they are turning the focus on to safety, which, like the
:03:38. > :03:41.supply of fuel, affects everyone. The drivers say it is all about
:03:41. > :03:45.standards and safety and the way a growing number of them are being
:03:45. > :03:49.employed is putting that at risk. They say it matters, not least
:03:49. > :03:54.because as one of them put it to me, they are driving around in the
:03:54. > :03:59.equivalent of a great big bomb. They are not alone in using
:03:59. > :04:03.language that adds to a sense of looming crisis.
:04:03. > :04:09.The Cabinet Office Minister's advice was to store fuel at home in
:04:09. > :04:12.your garage. If you have got one, otherwise, presumptionably, get on
:04:12. > :04:18.your bike. -- presumably, get on your bike.
:04:18. > :04:21.This Government wants to avoid the travailing of Tony Blair's, when
:04:21. > :04:26.blockades saw panic buying and disruption around the country. As
:04:26. > :04:30.part of contingency plans agreed by ministers this afternoon, military
:04:30. > :04:34.drivers are to be trained to keep supplies running. David Cameron
:04:34. > :04:38.again told motorists to top up, but in an orderly fashion. There is no
:04:38. > :04:42.need to queue to buy petrol. Of course people should take sensible
:04:42. > :04:46.precautions, if there is an opportunity to top up your tank, if
:04:46. > :04:50.a strike is potentially on the way, it is a sensible thing if you are
:04:50. > :04:55.able to do that. If a strike goes ahead, there will
:04:55. > :05:01.be seven days notice. But, on the forecourts, demand has been going
:05:01. > :05:07.Figures suggest 45% more unleaded has been sold than usual, while
:05:07. > :05:12.sales of diesel are up by 20%. It is not a comfortable time for
:05:12. > :05:17.Labour, either. As its leader refused to condemn strike action,
:05:17. > :05:20.called for afterall by Unite, his party's most generous donor.
:05:20. > :05:24.don't want to see industrial action, it must be avoided at all costs,
:05:24. > :05:27.the best way to make that happen is for the Government to tell both
:05:27. > :05:31.sides to instruct them, to say you have to negotiate. That is what's
:05:31. > :05:34.in the interests of the people of Britain, and that's what has to
:05:34. > :05:39.happen. ACAS will now try to mediate
:05:39. > :05:44.between the union and the seven haulage companies involved in the
:05:44. > :05:48.dispute. Unite says the outsourcing of fuel distribution to smaller
:05:48. > :05:51.companies has casualised the labour force, they are calling for
:05:52. > :05:56.nationally agreed standards, pointing to a study which shows
:05:56. > :06:00.Britain is falling behind. I think inevitably when there is quite big
:06:01. > :06:05.changes in contract relations, and an awful lot of sub-contracting,
:06:05. > :06:09.and complexties in that regard, then that produces safety in health
:06:09. > :06:14.and safety risks and dangers to training. So have members of unite
:06:14. > :06:18.got it right, then, they say the public are at risk? Well, certainly.
:06:18. > :06:24.Particularly in terms of health and safety standards, but I should also
:06:24. > :06:27.add that training in the industry any way could be much improved. It
:06:27. > :06:31.relies an awful lot on long-term experience of the drivers
:06:31. > :06:36.themselves. The training is very much poorer than that in other
:06:36. > :06:40.European countries, particularly countries like Germany. Talks will
:06:40. > :06:44.begin to keep Britain driving over the Easter break and beyond.
:06:44. > :06:48.Whatever happens, the Government must prepare for the worst. And
:06:48. > :06:55.despite being told not to panic, the concern is that motorists might
:06:55. > :07:01.do the same. Upsetting supply as effectively as any strike.
:07:01. > :07:06.Labour's Treasury spokesman, Chris Leslie is here. First let's talk to
:07:06. > :07:10.the minister for roads, Mike Penning. First off, are people
:07:10. > :07:15.supposed to have petrol in cans in garages they may or may not have?
:07:15. > :07:18.No, because you can't store that amount of petrol or diesel. It was
:07:18. > :07:23.a mistake the minister, he didn't understand the size of the can. We
:07:23. > :07:25.are trying to get a common sense approach, if the strike goes ahead
:07:25. > :07:30.we will have shortages, let as make sure people understand that. Right
:07:30. > :07:33.now there isn't a strike? No there isn't, but the strike is likely to
:07:33. > :07:37.happen. It is common sense that if there is likely to be a strike,
:07:37. > :07:42.don't queue in the garage, but if you are passing the garage and you
:07:42. > :07:46.are on a quarter of a tank, top up because there is not a strike now.
:07:46. > :07:49.We will have seven days notice? Seven days is not enough to make
:07:49. > :07:52.sure we have the facilities and amount of fuel we needing to
:07:52. > :07:56.forward. It is a simple common sense approach. If the tarpbger
:07:56. > :08:01.drivers are working now and we can fill tanks up in cars now, that is
:08:01. > :08:11.a sensible way to go forward. Let's hope there isn't a strike. Why did
:08:11. > :08:18.Francis Maude say what he said? was all fine but not about the
:08:18. > :08:23.Gerry can. Did you know about it? Did you know what it was. Five
:08:23. > :08:27.gallons in old money? He was saying don't panic, don't queue, be
:08:27. > :08:30.prepared. The problem is you have created the panic, 45% increase in
:08:30. > :08:34.petrol sales last night apparently. Where is the panic. I have been to
:08:34. > :08:38.five petrol stations, including the one right outside the studios, one
:08:39. > :08:42.person was filling up there, where is the panic. Have petrol sales
:08:42. > :08:47.gone up 45%? Because we have asked people to take the common sense
:08:47. > :08:54.approach, if you haven't a full tank top up. If the strike goes
:08:54. > :08:58.ahead, use your fuel. If it does there won't be such a demand. One
:08:58. > :09:04.car filled up outside the studios, I sat there for 15 minutes.
:09:04. > :09:08.sample? I went to five. And all functioning? Absolutely. And they
:09:08. > :09:12.were refuelled straight afterwards, during the night mostly. That is
:09:12. > :09:18.the point we are making, they can be refuelled now because the tanker
:09:18. > :09:22.drivers are not on strike. Key to this is no-strike. If they strike
:09:22. > :09:25.the country will have a problem. Let's be prepared, in case it
:09:25. > :09:29.happens. Shortage where it occurs is a consequence of the advice
:09:29. > :09:35.given by your Government? shortage will be if tanker drivers
:09:35. > :09:38.go on strike over pay, because suddenly this health and safety
:09:38. > :09:42.thing has suddenly come up in the last few days. They are not
:09:42. > :09:46.striking about pay? They balloted to strike about pay and conditions.
:09:46. > :09:50.They balloted to strike possibly about a multiplicity of things,
:09:50. > :09:56.some of which are opaque and some of which are not? Unite have not
:09:56. > :09:59.been banging on my daughter door to talk about the -- door to talk
:09:59. > :10:03.about the health and safety concerns they have. I have spoken
:10:03. > :10:10.to them in the last month. You have had no expression of concerns about
:10:10. > :10:14.safety? No, and I'm responsible for the tanker drivers' safety. In the
:10:14. > :10:17.whole time you have been in office? They have been there on other
:10:17. > :10:23.issues, but not this. The Labour Treasury spokesman is
:10:23. > :10:27.here. Do you support Unite in this
:10:27. > :10:30.campaign? Obviously there is a grievance between the employees and
:10:30. > :10:35.the employers, and they have been trying to discuss it with each
:10:35. > :10:39.other. I don't think we were in the situation of imminent strike, but
:10:39. > :10:43.obviously it is a serious sensitive set of negotiations. My anxiety is
:10:43. > :10:46.that we avoid a strike, I don't want us to get into stoking it up.
:10:46. > :10:49.Do you support them in their anxiety? I think they have
:10:50. > :10:53.obviously got concerns for health and safety reasons. But I'm not.
:10:53. > :10:57.you support them? It is not a Labour Party issue, this is an
:10:57. > :11:02.issue between employees and employers, in a particular sector.
:11:02. > :11:06.Do you think they should call off the strike threat? I think there is
:11:06. > :11:10.obviously the specter of that. I think the key thing is...You
:11:10. > :11:14.stating the blindingly obvious, I'm asking you what you think, do you
:11:14. > :11:18.think they should call off the strike? I think they should get
:11:18. > :11:23.around the table, set a date for ACAS, and solve it rationally. We
:11:23. > :11:27.don't need ministers stoking up the particular issue, as they did this
:11:27. > :11:32.morning. Stop changing the subject, I'm interested in what your party
:11:32. > :11:35.thinks about a strike threatened by people who basically pay for your
:11:35. > :11:38.party's existence? I don't think this is about party political
:11:38. > :11:43.funding. I think this is about whether there is a dispute that
:11:43. > :11:47.will escalate. Of every �10 the Labour Party receives, �4.20 comes
:11:47. > :11:52.from Unite. You don't think it has anything to do with it? Today is a
:11:52. > :11:58.crisis caused because ministers were telling people to fill theirg
:11:58. > :12:01.errycans, I think it was a serious error, with the greatest of respect
:12:01. > :12:08.to Mike, it should have been Francis Maude here this evening
:12:08. > :12:11.explaining publicly why he made that error. Apparent low he's now
:12:11. > :12:15.said that it was a mistake. I haven't heard him say that. I'm not
:12:15. > :12:21.sure if the public have as well. Naturally they heard a minister
:12:21. > :12:30.telling them fill yourg errycan and they went dout and did that. And
:12:30. > :12:34.there is all sorts -- a cans, and they went out and did that. There
:12:34. > :12:37.is a strike imminent in the process. We need to avoid a strike so get
:12:37. > :12:43.them all around the table. don't think the strike threat
:12:43. > :12:49.should be called off? Of course I. Do it is for both sides of the
:12:49. > :12:52.parties to get it done. Are you aware of the safety concerns the
:12:52. > :12:57.tanker drivers have? This is not something we have been discussing,
:12:57. > :13:01.it is a dispute between a set of employees and employers, they have
:13:01. > :13:05.a disagreement, they need to sort it out. There might be a set of
:13:05. > :13:09.issues, they are driving around �40,000 worth of fuel in tanker.
:13:09. > :13:13.There could be serious risks, I want them to sort it out. We don't
:13:13. > :13:17.want a strike that will cause harm to the economy or the wider public.
:13:17. > :13:22.The minister himself tonight has not been on the airwaves saying why
:13:22. > :13:26.he made the mistake and the bungle he did, this is a serious situation
:13:26. > :13:29.caused by his own mistakes, he should have been on here
:13:29. > :13:35.apologising for that. Meanwhile, pastygate continues to
:13:35. > :13:38.take its toll, last night the CEO of Greggs, the bakers, was here
:13:38. > :13:42.accusing George Osborne of being out-of-touch, because of his
:13:42. > :13:46.decision to levy VAT on things like pies and sausage rolls. The row
:13:46. > :13:50.dragged on to the Prime Minister today. He claimed to love Cornish
:13:50. > :13:57.pasties, and claimed to eat one several months ago. The national
:13:57. > :14:04.afederation of fish friars, who pay VAT, stuck in and supported the
:14:04. > :14:08.Prime Minister. Ed Milliband and his top team stunted up a visit to
:14:08. > :14:12.grex, and there is growing disquiet in the Conservative Party is it
:14:12. > :14:19.makes them look like people at sea when asked to eat something other
:14:19. > :14:23.than game pie and oysters. I love pasties, I bought one in Leeds
:14:23. > :14:29.station at the time. Since then there has been some
:14:29. > :14:31.confusion over the Prime Minister's comments. We asked BBC's Look North,
:14:31. > :14:34.to investigate. It turns out that well known man of
:14:34. > :14:41.the people, our Prime Minister, likes a Cornish pastie, he says the
:14:41. > :14:45.last one he had, he got here in Leeds Station, from the West
:14:45. > :14:51.Cornwall Pastie Station, there is a problem with the story, there
:14:51. > :14:56.hasn't been a shop here for five years. Do you know where we could
:14:56. > :15:01.buy a Cornish pastie? Greggs. there one in the station? I don't
:15:01. > :15:08.eat them. Do you know where you can get a Cornish pastie from? There
:15:08. > :15:16.should be one here. We are trying to find out where to get a Cornish
:15:16. > :15:21.pasty in the -- pastie in the station? I do believe it is closed
:15:21. > :15:26.down now in the station. With us to help delve into the
:15:26. > :15:29.political meaning of a hot or cold pastie is Labour's John Mann, and
:15:29. > :15:34.the Conservative, Nadhim Zahawi. Can you help us any further on the
:15:34. > :15:37.precise location of the Prime Minister's last pastie purchase?
:15:37. > :15:47.Jeremy, as busy as the Prime Minister is, being whisked around
:15:47. > :15:48.
:15:48. > :15:53.the country. You will forget which platform. Do you think he paid for
:15:53. > :15:58.it? I don't know. I can remember the last time I bought a pasty, it
:15:58. > :16:01.was in Cornwall, last summer, I last went into a grexr Greggs last
:16:01. > :16:04.Saturday? Good for you for rembering t I bet you are not as
:16:04. > :16:08.busy as the Prime Minister. It is perfectly understandable he
:16:08. > :16:13.doesn't know where he bought the last one, I suggest he was making
:16:13. > :16:16.it up? I don't think he was making it up. If you are as busy as he is,
:16:16. > :16:19.being whisked around the country, you have a pasty, you wouldn't
:16:19. > :16:22.remember which station you have it in, at the time of the day.
:16:22. > :16:27.Somewhere up north, they are all the same aren't they? That is not
:16:27. > :16:32.true. At the end of the day, I have to tell you, my local fish and chip
:16:32. > :16:37.shop is pleased that there will be a level playing field. They have to
:16:37. > :16:40.pay VAT on their product, why shouldn't Greggs pay VAT on a hot
:16:40. > :16:44.product. What is the deeper significance of pastygate? I think
:16:44. > :16:49.the big significance is that it was predictable. I knew what the
:16:49. > :16:53.reaction would be before I asked the question. I'm amazed. You are
:16:53. > :16:56.the famous person who asked George Osborne when he last had a Greggs
:16:56. > :17:00.pasty, that was yesterday? suspected he wouldn't know, because
:17:00. > :17:04.he hadn't done. Why does it matter? Why it matters is not whether
:17:04. > :17:08.George Osborne eats Greggs pasties or not, but it shows how out-of-
:17:08. > :17:11.touch the top of the Conservative Party is in not realised how
:17:12. > :17:17.vulnerable they would be on this issue. And not least because, of
:17:17. > :17:24.course, they don't have a coherent policy. You can't put VAT on
:17:24. > :17:29.pasties in this way. You support VAT on bacon butties, though, don't
:17:29. > :17:33.you? I support common sense. The reason, seven Chancellors haven't
:17:33. > :17:39.done this. From a common sense point of view, can you tell me why
:17:39. > :17:46.you support VAT on chicken wings, hamburgers, bacon butties, but not
:17:46. > :17:51.on Cornish pasties? Because with pasties and other pasties, cold
:17:51. > :17:55.foods aren't VATable. Hot foods are, but pasties, when heated cool down.
:17:55. > :17:57.That is the problem. That is why there hasn't been VAT on them in
:17:57. > :18:02.the past. Because what is the temperature, in what conditions. It
:18:02. > :18:05.can't be done. That is what's been proven in the past. That is why it
:18:05. > :18:11.is extraordinary it has been done this time. You think what this is
:18:11. > :18:14.really about, is class, don't you? It is that they don't get it, how
:18:14. > :18:17.the majority of the British people live. I think that's a fundamental
:18:17. > :18:21.weakness. They don't seem to realise that they don't get it.
:18:21. > :18:28.Which is an even bigger weakness. You see, when you look at this, you
:18:28. > :18:33.put it in the context of the Prime Minister that goes out riding
:18:33. > :18:38.horses with Charley Brooks and his wife, and has dinner for people for
:18:38. > :18:41.�250,000 in his little flat in Downing Street, it looks terrible?
:18:41. > :18:47.What John would love it to be is a class war thing. It isn't a class
:18:47. > :18:51.war thing. I can tell you why. My local franchisee of Subway, when he
:18:52. > :18:55.toasts a sandwich he has to pay VAT on it, because it is above ambient
:18:55. > :18:59.temperature. They have made the argument to HMRC and lost them in
:18:59. > :19:02.the courts. The idea here is that we try to close some of these
:19:02. > :19:05.loopholes, because actually it makes a difference, at the time of
:19:05. > :19:08.the day, so we have a fair playing field. Greggs, the CEO yesterday,
:19:08. > :19:13.they are a big company, they can afford to come on your show and
:19:13. > :19:17.have big lobbyists working for them. The little chippy in Stratford, or
:19:17. > :19:21.the franchisee of a Subway, doesn't have the same ability. The idea
:19:21. > :19:26.that we are doing this because of class is nonsense. Don't you read
:19:26. > :19:32.the papers, this is on front page after front page after front page?
:19:32. > :19:36.Because it suits the agenda. What is the agenda? Horses, �250,000
:19:36. > :19:39.dinners, these must be a bunch of toffs, it is not true. It is about
:19:39. > :19:44.the small businessman having a level playing field with the big
:19:44. > :19:47.guy, the supermarkets having to charge no VAT on a hot chicken
:19:47. > :19:51.versus the chippy in my constituency who has to charge VAT.
:19:51. > :19:56.That is the agenda. It is about fairness, not about class warfare.
:19:56. > :20:00.John would love it to be about that, but the millionaire Ed Milliband
:20:00. > :20:03.walked into Greggs for a photo shoot. Just before today when was
:20:03. > :20:07.Ed Milliband last in a Greggs? haven't a clue. Do you think he has
:20:07. > :20:17.ever been in one? What is significant is having this
:20:17. > :20:17.
:20:17. > :20:21.reputation already for being a bunch of outof touch -- out-off-
:20:21. > :20:25.touch toffs, they reinforce it by picking on Greggs, pasties and
:20:25. > :20:28.caravans. That is really significant, the people who are the
:20:28. > :20:31.biggest users of Greggs, are the very people whose standard of
:20:31. > :20:37.living is going down at the moment, who are suffering. This idea we are
:20:37. > :20:41.all in it together, picking on them at this time, is particularly
:20:41. > :20:44.stupid politically. That is the big significance. That the
:20:44. > :20:50.miscalculations, it was so predictable this was going to end
:20:50. > :20:55.up like it did. When you put it in the context of these remarks about
:20:55. > :21:02.people. Francis Maude didn't advise people to go and get their
:21:02. > :21:07.chauffeurs to fill up their ka, when he talks about g errycans in
:21:07. > :21:12.people's garage, and thinking that people know what the can is, and
:21:12. > :21:16.has a garage, it shows they are out-of-touch? He made a mistake,
:21:16. > :21:18.and I don't disagree that one should go careful in the language
:21:19. > :21:22.one uses about these things, actually it is unfair to start
:21:22. > :21:28.painting it as being a class war. I know where John wants to go with
:21:28. > :21:34.this, because he's comfortable with it. His problem is the millionaire
:21:34. > :21:39.Ed Milliband is the exact opposite of who John is trying to paint. The
:21:39. > :21:44.photo shoot will be seen through as opportunism of the worst kinds. To
:21:44. > :21:47.stand in front of Greggs and do a photo shoot when you are a multi-
:21:47. > :21:51.millionaire from London. Multi- millionaires are allowed to go to
:21:51. > :21:56.Greggs? The opportunism of it, getting on the bandwagon and doing
:21:56. > :22:02.it for the day because you had the CEO of Greggs here. I lout we all
:22:02. > :22:05.loved a pasty, it seems one or two don't. That is the Government's
:22:05. > :22:09.real problem. They need to get real, it is to our political advantage
:22:09. > :22:11.they are not. That is why the moment is significant. They are not
:22:11. > :22:16.getting at this stage, Ed Milliband is getting some real confidence out
:22:16. > :22:21.of this. Some of the European Union's rules
:22:21. > :22:25.about when and how people should be expected to work for a living are
:22:25. > :22:28.barmy. It is not a headline from the Sun or Telegraph, but the
:22:28. > :22:33.considered judgment of the Employment Minister, Norman Lamb,
:22:33. > :22:35.interestingly, Mr Lamb is a Liberal Democrat, this is not the usual
:22:36. > :22:39.adjective you hear from the Liberal Democrats about the European Union.
:22:39. > :22:45.It has no bigger fans in British politics, than people like Nick
:22:45. > :22:54.Clegg. But the bigger question is whether Britain can resist this
:22:54. > :22:57.barmyness. Our political editor reports. At the Lib Dem HQ they are
:22:57. > :23:00.a hard working lot, tapping away. They very much want to keep things
:23:00. > :23:10.that way. But on a Wednesday afternoon in March, we would all
:23:10. > :23:18.
:23:18. > :23:24.rather be doing this. This would be enjoying the weather, bureaucrats
:23:24. > :23:29.on the continent want to make sure we don't miss any leisure, even if
:23:29. > :23:32.it costs business more. Shooting the breeze and relaxing must be
:23:32. > :23:36.safeguarded too. So they are proposing a series of rulings they
:23:36. > :23:40.want imposed on minutes tes in October. Employees that fall --
:23:40. > :23:45.ministers in October. Employees who fall ill on annual lead, can claim
:23:45. > :23:49.additional leave to make up for it. Annual leave on maternity leave
:23:49. > :23:54.should go on to the next year's leave. The EU Directive is time
:23:54. > :23:59.spent on call is working time, even if someone is asleep, all of this
:23:59. > :24:04.costs money. One Lib Dem minister is not happy about it. In a letter
:24:04. > :24:14.obtained by Newsnight, the Employment Minister Norman Lam
:24:14. > :24:30.
:24:30. > :24:33.The hard working minister says he can't enact something he thinks is
:24:33. > :24:37.barmy, this Government has talked like this before, and so far, not
:24:37. > :24:40.done anything about it. This week it is about to change. Officials
:24:40. > :24:42.have been tasked with drawing up a strategy, they have to go around
:24:42. > :24:45.Europe and find other countries that think the way the UK
:24:45. > :24:52.Government does. If none of this works, by September, well the
:24:52. > :24:56.minister is serving notice that the UK will just ignore these diktats,
:24:56. > :25:00.like Sweden did before us. This delights the Conservatives. It is
:25:00. > :25:03.great Norman Lamb, the Lib Dem minister, is pushing for reform in
:25:03. > :25:07.Europe. He's really doing exactly what David Cameron wants and what
:25:07. > :25:11.Tony Blair before him wants, which is liberalisation and reform in
:25:11. > :25:15.Europe, and making sure we don't get yet more regulation and
:25:15. > :25:20.restriction. Regulation to some, but cherished rights to others.
:25:20. > :25:24.Government are making a mountain out of a mole hill, the fact is,
:25:24. > :25:29.the Working Time Directive gives minimum rights of workers to some
:25:29. > :25:33.paid holiday, to rest breaks and not excessive hours each week. It
:25:33. > :25:36.has given millions of workers in Britain four weeks paid holiday
:25:36. > :25:42.entitlement, many didn't have that before. So I think it is a good
:25:42. > :25:47.thing, and people should celebrate it. But this extra step by the
:25:47. > :25:50.European Court, if you are sick and you are on holiday, that you are
:25:50. > :25:56.entitled to extra holiday, I can see some employers will think that
:25:56. > :26:00.will be a problem. It is not a problem if they manage is right.
:26:00. > :26:06.The Prime Minister managed a bit of recreation today in the garden at
:26:06. > :26:10.Number Ten, but despite the jolly japes, his Government say they mean
:26:10. > :26:15.business in flouting these new directives, even if, in the words
:26:15. > :26:18.of the ministers letter, risks infractions. Many other countries
:26:18. > :26:22.get away with ignoring these rulings, but is there anything to
:26:22. > :26:26.be done about it? They could fight it, the question is whether they
:26:26. > :26:30.want to expend political capital fighting over an issue that has
:26:30. > :26:34.limited impact on the UK. If they expend political capital on this,
:26:34. > :26:40.they will have less available to use when it comes to an issue that
:26:40. > :26:46.does have a significant impact on the UK. Although the German leader,
:26:46. > :26:50.Chancellor Merkel, promised a koind of quid pro quo to the UK, if they
:26:50. > :26:53.withdrew their objectives, she would address some Conservatives
:26:53. > :26:56.concerns. There is nothing the Germans can do, they are not
:26:56. > :27:01.pushing for an extension on the Working Time Directive, that is
:27:01. > :27:05.coming from the commission and other states. It is not within the
:27:05. > :27:09.German agenda to do this. Liberal Democrats are the most pro-
:27:09. > :27:15.European of the parties. Now they are deciding Europe is becoming too
:27:15. > :27:19.creative for making law which it has no mandates. Now with the Lib
:27:19. > :27:23.Dems joining forces with the euro- sceptics, Britain has decided to
:27:23. > :27:26.lead the rebellion against European law. Called barmy ideas in
:27:26. > :27:31.definitely barmy weather, and a new push to do something about them.
:27:31. > :27:34.But it is a new push that may keep many a minister and their civil
:27:34. > :27:39.servant desk bound for quite some months.
:27:39. > :27:45.Norman Lamb is in our Norwich studio now, are you willing to risk
:27:45. > :27:49.prosecution, if necessary, Norman Lamb? This is a strategy we need to
:27:49. > :27:53.win allies, the fact is, Europe is changing. There are many countries
:27:53. > :27:58.out there that take a similar view to the UK, that we need to be more
:27:58. > :28:03.flexible, that we need to focus on growth, ensuring that the single
:28:03. > :28:08.market works effectively. On the competitiveness council, where I
:28:08. > :28:12.sit, we have a group of like-minded nations, which have a similar
:28:12. > :28:16.agenda there. I want the same thing on the Employment Council. If we
:28:16. > :28:19.can work together with other countries, arguing the case for
:28:19. > :28:24.more flexibility, I absolutely support the case for basic
:28:24. > :28:28.employment rights, I support the case, of course, for paid holiday.
:28:28. > :28:33.The fact is, the European Court is extending these rights, there is no
:28:33. > :28:37.democratic mandate to do it. you this is a very, very important
:28:37. > :28:43.principle, clearly. I repeat the question, are you willing to risk
:28:43. > :28:49.prosecution? I have made it clear that I think that we should resist.
:28:49. > :28:51.Interestingly, according to the commission's own report, let me
:28:51. > :28:55.just finish this point, according to the commission's own report.
:28:55. > :29:00.With the greatest of respect, you haven't answered the question, I'm
:29:00. > :29:07.asking are you willing to risk prosecution? What I'm saying is the
:29:07. > :29:10.UK should resist these implementing of court rulings, and argue the
:29:10. > :29:14.case for a more flexible application of the Working Time
:29:14. > :29:19.Directive. I understand that, but if it comes to prosecution you are
:29:19. > :29:25.willing to take that risk are you? The risk is of infraction
:29:25. > :29:29.proceedings, what has happened with a decision way back in 2003, over
:29:29. > :29:33.how we treat on-call time. The decision then was if you are asleep
:29:33. > :29:39.n a hospital, that counts as working time. There are about a
:29:39. > :29:43.dozen countries that still, a decade on, haven't implemented that
:29:43. > :29:47.ruling. Let's remain calm about this, and argue the case for why it
:29:47. > :29:50.is absolutely in Europe's interests, and the interests of employment,
:29:50. > :29:55.that we get greater flexibility here. Europe has to earn a living,
:29:55. > :29:59.and we have to be able to compete with emerging economies in Asia and
:29:59. > :30:02.south America, and we cannot simply keep adding burdens on business.
:30:02. > :30:05.understand what you have said now and what you said in the letter,
:30:05. > :30:09.but just to be clear about this, does your party leader support you
:30:09. > :30:13.in this position? It is very interesting, actually, Nick was
:30:13. > :30:18.mentioned in the report, but Nick has long argued the case against
:30:18. > :30:23.ever more regulation. He wrote a familiar flet about it. He also
:30:23. > :30:26.believes you shouldn't implement these regulations? I have kept his
:30:26. > :30:30.office informed throughout all of this and talked to Vince as well.
:30:31. > :30:33.Our view is we have to get real on the Working Time Directive. It is
:30:33. > :30:38.part of the coalition agreement, there is a clear statement in there
:30:39. > :30:44.that we should work to create more flexibility. He also thinks these
:30:44. > :30:48.regulations are barmy does he? my word I have used. It is my task
:30:48. > :30:52.as the Employment Minister to lead the case, in Europe, for greater
:30:52. > :30:58.flexibility on the application of these regulations. If we don't get
:30:59. > :31:03.that in Europe, then the risk is that Europe sinks. Europe faces the
:31:03. > :31:06.greatest economic challenge, for decades, and if we don't start to
:31:06. > :31:10.address the problem of ever growing burdens on business, then
:31:10. > :31:13.employment suffers, and the most vulnerable suffer along the way. So
:31:14. > :31:18.we have got to tackle this, and there are allies out there, in this
:31:18. > :31:23.task. The German Chancellor told her
:31:23. > :31:27.country's parliament today, that they absolutely had to get on with
:31:27. > :31:32.ratfying new rules managing the budget. It is about setting an
:31:32. > :31:36.example, hardly anyone in Germany disputes the country's leadership
:31:36. > :31:43.role, since it has by a long shot the wealthiest economy in Europe.
:31:43. > :31:47.But it is people like France and Europe have the seats on the
:31:47. > :31:52.Security Council. It is hardly surprising since Germany wrecked
:31:52. > :32:02.Europe twice in the past century, that Germany is tentative in world
:32:02. > :32:03.
:32:03. > :32:09.affairs. The German military on the march in the heart of Berlin, just
:32:09. > :32:14.as you would expect, with pru, precision. Germany has given birth
:32:14. > :32:24.to a new country, Europe's most powerful democracy, 20 years after
:32:24. > :32:28.
:32:28. > :32:31.unification. We were invited to look at the honour guard for Angela
:32:31. > :32:35.Merkel meeting another Prime Minister, Tunisia. Given the
:32:35. > :32:40.lessons in history, Germans are extremely cautious about their use
:32:40. > :32:48.of power, and are uncomfortable with the idea of German leadership
:32:48. > :32:52.in Europe. It is the "F" word. would always steer clear of a term
:32:52. > :32:57.like "fuhre", if necessary, we would say "leadership", yes, in
:32:57. > :33:05.English. You would rather say that than in German? We even have, you
:33:05. > :33:11.see, I have a daughter who is a member of the Young Davos Group,
:33:11. > :33:15.they are the young leaders, not the young fuhres. Because you can't say
:33:15. > :33:19.that. As Germany showed throughout the
:33:19. > :33:25.Arab Spring, they may be an economic giant, but desperate never
:33:25. > :33:30.to be seen as a bully, Germany often plays the political Pigmy in
:33:30. > :33:35.world affairs. As they think about their place in Europe, wherever you
:33:35. > :33:39.go in this most modern country, the past is not really history, it is
:33:39. > :33:43.never past. This is Berlin's poshest shopping area, this is one
:33:43. > :33:46.of its poshest stores, KaDeWe, rather like Harrods, I suppose,
:33:46. > :33:54.just behind me is Wittenbergplatz underground station, a charming
:33:54. > :34:00.place from the 1920s being refurbished. So the side of it, so
:34:00. > :34:06.commuters miss it, the places of horrors, listing concentration
:34:06. > :34:10.camps and extermination camps. It says we are always to remember this.
:34:10. > :34:14.The conductor and pianist, Daniel Barenboim, a Berlin resident for 20
:34:14. > :34:18.years, says as a Jewish man he admired Germany for coming to terms
:34:18. > :34:26.with the past, but wonders is it time to leave some of the guilt
:34:26. > :34:33.behind. Having come to terms with the past with the Nazi period in
:34:33. > :34:37.Germany, there comes with that almost a rejection of their own
:34:37. > :34:44.cultural heritage, they don't want any more to hear about the German
:34:44. > :34:48.way of playing, the German way of producing the sound. The famous
:34:48. > :34:55.dark German string sound et cetera, et cetera, et cetera, they want to
:34:55. > :35:00.internationalise themselves. Which I think is a pity, I think culture,
:35:00. > :35:05.especially in the 1890s, and a larpblg chunk of the 20th century -
:35:05. > :35:15.- large chunk of the 20th century, the different cultures in Europe,
:35:15. > :35:20.
:35:20. > :35:24.have very nationalistic elements. Flux FM is a radio station run by a
:35:24. > :35:28.pair of German entrepeneurs, they play a mix of music, but are keen
:35:28. > :35:32.of the new and different. Everything is in flux.
:35:32. > :35:36.In Germany wouldn't it be great to have a name or independent radio
:35:36. > :35:39.network that actually has the name and is addressing this emerging new
:35:39. > :35:47.group in Germany that feels very positive and optimistic about the
:35:47. > :35:51.future. Germany is indeed in flux, Europe's
:35:51. > :35:58.in flux, this radio station is proving a huge success to the flux
:35:58. > :36:02.generation. There are frequent news bulletins, phone-ins, and
:36:02. > :36:10.discussions about culture and politics, and today with Newsnight,
:36:10. > :36:16.on whether Germany really can lead in Europe.
:36:16. > :36:25.Hello, how are you? I'm totally fine, how are you. We have our next
:36:25. > :36:29.listener, Hermen. How do you think Germany can lead in Europe? I don't
:36:29. > :36:34.think we want to or have to lead politically on our own. I think it
:36:34. > :36:41.can be a collaberative thing, working together with all European
:36:41. > :36:47.nations. How do you feel about Germany
:36:47. > :36:51.leading in Europe? I feel like Germany is being modest and trying
:36:51. > :36:55.to not appear so strong internationally, and I really hope
:36:55. > :37:02.that it stays that way. Ifrpblgt we have to make a quick break right
:37:02. > :37:09.here. For a glimpse of how a new Germany
:37:09. > :37:15.might be growing from the flux of the old, I went to Berlin's cinema
:37:15. > :37:21.post product house, founded in 1911, one of the oldest in the world. In
:37:21. > :37:29.cutting rooms here, Hitler's protege showed the fuhre himself,
:37:29. > :37:34.in extraordinary propaganda films, including Triumph Of The Will.
:37:34. > :37:39.One of Germany's most creative new wave of film directors, Dennis
:37:39. > :37:48.Gansel, director of political films, is previewing a trailer for his
:37:48. > :37:51.latest, a thriller, The Fourth State.
:37:51. > :37:55.For Gansel's generation, the horrors of the past must never be
:37:56. > :38:02.forgotten and repeated. But guilt mustn't hold back younger Germans
:38:02. > :38:07.from playing a wider role in Europe, and the world.
:38:07. > :38:11.Is it possible, do you think, to really move on? Yes, if you speak
:38:11. > :38:16.to people who are 17 or 18 years old, they don't feel this shame any
:38:16. > :38:20.more, they don't feel this guilt any more. They would say, you know
:38:20. > :38:24.World War II is so far away, as for your generation it is as maybe
:38:24. > :38:28.World War I, for us it is a new generation, we are living in the
:38:28. > :38:33.edge of Facebook, YouTube, don't tell us anything about
:38:33. > :38:36.globalisation. If I talk to my own father he says we really have to
:38:36. > :38:41.protect, it is our responsibility, the European idea. But if I speak
:38:41. > :38:45.to my younger cousin, she's 20 right now, she's saying let them go,
:38:45. > :38:49.it is too much money. For at least 150 years Europe has
:38:49. > :38:53.had to come to terms with some kind of German question. The answer,
:38:53. > :38:56.every generation or so, was usually, war.
:38:56. > :39:00.We and the new generation of Germans face another German
:39:00. > :39:06.question, what role for this great economy and solid democracy. When
:39:06. > :39:11.simply paying the bills for Europe is not a sustainable answer.
:39:11. > :39:15.It is obvious that memories and memorials are absolutely
:39:15. > :39:19.inescapably in modern Germany, it is hardly surprising, therefore,
:39:19. > :39:22.that the core of German foreign policy, since World War II, has
:39:22. > :39:26.been to have no problems with the neighbours. If the consequence of
:39:26. > :39:29.that is that German politicians sometimes have to take a back seat
:39:29. > :39:35.when it comes to leading in Europe, most Germans seem to be content
:39:35. > :39:40.with that. At least for now.
:39:40. > :39:44.One of the reasons Angela Merkel is personally popular, is that she
:39:44. > :39:47.understands perfectly the dilemma of German leadership. A woman,
:39:47. > :39:50.conservative and cautious in a system full of checks and balances,
:39:50. > :39:57.she's exactly the opposite of bolder German leaders who risked
:39:57. > :40:01.and lost everything. But 80 million people in Europe's
:40:01. > :40:08.strongest economy, and 500 million Europeans, will some day have to
:40:08. > :40:13.come to terms with fuhre-shaft, even if nobody wants to say the "F"
:40:13. > :40:23.word in anything less than a whisper.
:40:23. > :40:26.
:40:26. > :40:31.We have our guests. We have Miss Merkel. No not that. I
:40:31. > :40:34.would love to be that powerful! so sorry. How long will this role
:40:34. > :40:40.last for Germany? This piece represented a characteristic
:40:40. > :40:44.British misunderstanding of Germany, for us it is always mention the war,
:40:44. > :40:48.it is always about the Nazis and Hitler. It is not what it is about.
:40:48. > :40:52.What it is actually about, Germany, the Germans after unification said
:40:52. > :40:57.we want to be a normal country, we want to go on making Mercedes,
:40:57. > :41:01.machine tools, exporting them to China, being rich and free, being a
:41:01. > :41:06.greater Switzerland. That is their problem with leadership, they don't
:41:06. > :41:12.want the leadership role, which monetary union, the eurozone, has
:41:12. > :41:15.forced upon them, because they are the biggest economy. Is it your
:41:15. > :41:22.sense that the German people will grow into this leadership role
:41:22. > :41:27.forced upon them? I think they very much do. As much as I agree with
:41:27. > :41:35.you, in a way a typical British misunderstanding of Germany, I do
:41:35. > :41:39.not agree that Germany cannot envisage a greater leading role. I
:41:39. > :41:45.certainly think that Angela Merkel does envisage a role. I think, to
:41:46. > :41:53.an extent, thatest mo of the European nations do not just --
:41:53. > :41:56.most of the European nations will not come to see that. The fiscal
:41:56. > :42:00.compact goes towards the direction of integrated Europe, that is a
:42:00. > :42:04.very bold and not at all compromising vision. It is about
:42:04. > :42:08.time that the other European countries catch up. I didn't say
:42:08. > :42:12.Germany couldn't come into a leadership role, I said the German
:42:12. > :42:15.public opinion, the Germans, are very reluctant to take the
:42:15. > :42:18.leadership role. Therefore, it is a difficult task to bring Germany,
:42:18. > :42:22.particularly when as the German defence minister said to me the
:42:22. > :42:28.other day, you say leadership and you mean money. I think it is
:42:28. > :42:32.divided. Most recently there was extremely interesting poll, about
:42:32. > :42:36.patriotism in general. One said how proud are you about the history,
:42:36. > :42:41.and Germans said only 25%, only one in four Germans is proud of our
:42:41. > :42:43.history, in Britain and France so much more. But then they were asked
:42:43. > :42:47.do you actually think that your country does everything better than
:42:47. > :42:53.other countries, and 70% of Germans said question. Far more than in
:42:53. > :42:59.Britain and France. I think that very much shows a change in the
:42:59. > :43:09.opinion in Germany and with Germans nowadays. There is a growing
:43:09. > :43:11.
:43:11. > :43:15.feeling that we, and I slightly am suspicious with that, because it is
:43:15. > :43:19.slightly self-righteous, but in a self-righteous way, we can show the
:43:19. > :43:25.rest of Europe what to do. everybody can be Germany, otherwise
:43:25. > :43:27.Germany couldn't be Germany, where would German exports go. There is a
:43:27. > :43:31.profound problem with the prescription that Germany is trying
:43:31. > :43:35.to impose on the rest of the eurozone. That is not necessarily
:43:35. > :43:41.the kind of leadership we want to see. I couldn't agree more, the
:43:41. > :43:44.leadership really would come in, not in Germany showing the rest of
:43:44. > :43:49.Europe how to be another Germany, you are absolutely right. That
:43:49. > :43:54.cannot work and that is wrong economics. But the leadership of
:43:54. > :43:57.the German Chancellor really would have to come in to talk to her own
:43:57. > :44:02.people, and to explain far, far better than she has done so far,
:44:02. > :44:08.and I think that is the one thing. It is interesting comparison to the
:44:08. > :44:12.German unification, because Chancellor KHol, did precisely the
:44:12. > :44:18.same thing, brilliant in foreign policy, he took on leadership there
:44:19. > :44:25.and managed the reunification going ahead. But he totally lacked, or at
:44:25. > :44:29.los there was a big problem in -- lost, or there was a big problem in
:44:29. > :44:34.internal leadership. We are still suffering that, east Germans are
:44:34. > :44:37.still pitched against west Germans. Coming from the time when Khol said
:44:37. > :44:41.it will be fine and everybody will be better off. Seen we will have a
:44:41. > :44:45.leader that comes neither from east or west but simply Germany, that is
:44:45. > :44:48.going to be a different sort of person, isn't it? Absolutely. I
:44:48. > :44:53.think Germany is growing gradually into the leadership role. It is
:44:53. > :45:00.unfortunate it has come through the crisis of the eurozone. But Germany
:45:00. > :45:04.will always have this problem, even if it were not for the Nazi past,
:45:04. > :45:08.Henry Kissenger said Germany's problem is too big for Europe, too
:45:08. > :45:12.small for the world. It is a critical size, not big enough to be
:45:12. > :45:17.like the United States, but it is too big just to be one among others.
:45:17. > :45:22.So German leadership will always be quite difficult. Which might not be
:45:22. > :45:26.any more the case if you really go into that integrated Europe, that
:45:26. > :45:30.Angela Merkel is envisaging. I have to say, in a way I dread this
:45:30. > :45:35.vision, I think it brings with it all kinds of problems, not least
:45:35. > :45:41.about democratic deficit. I think that is another point where really
:45:41. > :45:44.far more leadership is required. Some breaking news, while we have
:45:44. > :45:48.been on the air, Downing Street have made clear that David Cameron
:45:49. > :45:58.actually bought his pasty in Liverpool, rather than Leeds.
:45:59. > :46:26.
:46:26. > :46:36.Pasties are all over the front That's all for tonight. Until
:46:36. > :47:02.
:47:02. > :47:05.Hello, we are going to see some changes with our weather for the
:47:05. > :47:09.weekend. But for Thursday, think more of the same. A chilly start
:47:09. > :47:11.and plenty of sunshine. There will be more cloud across western
:47:11. > :47:14.Scotland, the north coast of Northern Ireland, and perhaps
:47:14. > :47:19.developing around the Irish Sea coast. But overall, northern
:47:19. > :47:25.England, again another sparkling day, temperatures inland reaching
:47:25. > :47:28.21 degrees. Further south we could hit 22 or 23. Hazy sunshine in the
:47:28. > :47:31.Midland and southern counties, more of a breeze across parts of
:47:31. > :47:35.Cornwall. Breeze from the north or North West means the coasts of
:47:35. > :47:39.Wales will be a little bit cooler, the south coast could again see 21
:47:39. > :47:42.or 22 Celsius. Lots of sunshine here, as there will be across most
:47:42. > :47:45.of Northern Ireland, but we will see a change on the north coast, a
:47:45. > :47:50.cooler day here with much more cloud. The same goes for the
:47:50. > :47:55.western most fringes of Scotland, even a spot or two of the drizzle.
:47:55. > :47:59.For much of the central belt, much of the north-east will be fine and
:47:59. > :48:02.sunny. Increasing amounts of cloud on north western areas. As a result
:48:02. > :48:07.temperatures won't be anything like as high. In the south, temperatures
:48:07. > :48:13.could be a little bit low on Friday, but essentially another fine day,
:48:13. > :48:18.with more fringe sun hien to be had. That area of -- spring sunshine to