:00:09. > :00:12.This man created the biggest upset in electoral politics for years.
:00:12. > :00:17.What does George Galloway's bulldozing of the Labour Party tell
:00:17. > :00:20.us about what's gone wrong with British politics. Why are we so
:00:20. > :00:25.disillusioned with mainstream parties? And the way that power is
:00:25. > :00:28.exercised here? And the spin doctor, Tim Bell is
:00:28. > :00:34.with us, has his profession done the most to poison relations
:00:34. > :00:38.between politics and the public. And then we travel to northern
:00:38. > :00:42.Burma, where foren observers are banned, as war rages between ethnic
:00:42. > :00:47.rebels, and Government soldiers. TRANSLATION: Everyone was running,
:00:47. > :00:53.but my mother didn't, and they shot her, I went back and found her body.
:00:53. > :01:01.They had thrown it in a deep hole that had been dug as as pit, and
:01:01. > :01:05.then I buried her. People are understandably sceptical
:01:05. > :01:10.about politics, said the Labour leader, Ed Milliband today, one of
:01:10. > :01:14.those remarks that you some how indicitively know will never make
:01:14. > :01:20.it to the Oxford Dictionary book of quotations. Trying not to look like
:01:20. > :01:23.a man who had been hit on the head by a large halibut, he said his
:01:23. > :01:27.party would recover because it could make a difference. George
:01:27. > :01:33.Galloway demolished the hold on what was a safe seat in Bradford.
:01:33. > :01:41.But all the parties sense a growing public disillusion. Perhaps they
:01:41. > :01:44.noticed it today, the eighth day of their Easter holiday
:01:44. > :01:49.There was a certain predictability in British politics, don't like the
:01:49. > :01:53.colour of the Government, wait a bit, it will change, as surely as a
:01:53. > :01:58.traffic light. What's more, every now and then there is a Lib Dem
:01:58. > :02:02.protest vote at a by-election to look forward to. But, as the old
:02:02. > :02:05.three-party machine, has it broken down, putting in play lots and lots
:02:06. > :02:09.of minor parties? Last week's victory by George
:02:09. > :02:16.Galloway, in the Bradford West by- election, was hailed as nothing
:02:16. > :02:22.short of a revolution. Most notably, of course, by the man
:02:22. > :02:27.himself. The most sensational result in British by-election
:02:27. > :02:31.history, bar none, represents the Bradford spring.
:02:31. > :02:37.Recent pol polling makes grim reading for the established parties.
:02:37. > :02:41.17% of voters said they would vote for another party. That is the
:02:41. > :02:46.highest since 2009 and the European elections.
:02:46. > :02:51.68% of voters think British politics is either "very" or
:02:51. > :02:58."fairly" corrupt. And when it comes to the performance of the party
:02:58. > :03:03.leaders, David Cameron is assessed as "doing badly", by 53% of voters.
:03:03. > :03:10.For Ed Milliband it is worse, 62%, and Nick Clegg, worse still, 69%.
:03:10. > :03:15.And the public, it seems, don't trust the parties over their donors.
:03:15. > :03:20.7% don't trust David Cameron over his donors, 64% don't trust Ed
:03:20. > :03:25.Milliband over his party's donors. We have had the expenses row, that
:03:25. > :03:29.has certain low put a lot of voters off politicians. Then -- certainly
:03:29. > :03:35.put a lot of voters off politicians. Then the complaint in the 1990s and
:03:35. > :03:38.the Nolan commit year, and the aspect of transparency, and
:03:38. > :03:41.transparency, rather than increasing trust in politician, has
:03:41. > :03:44.led to a whole bunch of stories about politicians doing wrong.
:03:44. > :03:49.There is a real public cynicism about politicians.
:03:49. > :03:53.But, hang on a minute, Bradford West was actually the seventh by-
:03:53. > :03:56.election of this parliament. In all six previous by-elections, the
:03:56. > :04:02.party that went into the by- election having the seat, came out
:04:02. > :04:09.of the by-election having the seat. Five of those times, the Labour
:04:10. > :04:13.Party. At Feltham and Heston, there was an increase in the margin of
:04:13. > :04:17.the victory over the predecessor, although on a reduced turnout. That
:04:17. > :04:21.doesn't, on the surface of it, sound like the death of the three-
:04:21. > :04:24.party system. I do think there is something very strong about parties
:04:24. > :04:29.that really are rooted where they are. They are not just structure,
:04:29. > :04:33.they are not just national entities, but they are part of the community.
:04:33. > :04:36.If you have parties that maybe haven't managed to keep those links
:04:36. > :04:40.really strong, then it is very easy for them to be displaced, no matter
:04:40. > :04:43.whether or not they have got the right policy solutions for an area.
:04:43. > :04:48.Is part of the problem here that one of the tendencies in modern
:04:48. > :04:53.politics is the national parties control more and more from the
:04:53. > :04:57.centre, in a sense, leaving less space for local parties to feel
:04:57. > :05:02.ownership? We see people going back to wanting to be connected to
:05:02. > :05:05.something local, and be local, and have the parties responded to that
:05:05. > :05:09.message and bridging a national message with a local message and a
:05:09. > :05:13.skens of being local too I don't know if -- a sense of being local
:05:13. > :05:17.too I don't know if we have done that to a point of reconnecting
:05:17. > :05:20.people with politics. In the past, if voters were angry with the
:05:20. > :05:24.Government, yet not quite ready to trust the opposition again, they
:05:24. > :05:29.tended to vote for the Liberal Democrats, or their predecessor
:05:29. > :05:31.parties. They were the natural home for disillusioned voters. Now, of
:05:31. > :05:35.course, well, they are in Government.
:05:35. > :05:41.And just look what's happened to their share of the vote as a result.
:05:41. > :05:47.From just under a quarter, to bumping along between 8-10%.
:05:47. > :05:52.We have also seen voters learning to vote differently in different
:05:52. > :05:56.elections. UKIP doing very well in the European Parliamentry elections,
:05:56. > :06:00.the SNP going from a minor party to the majority party of Government,
:06:01. > :06:05.in the Scottish Parliamentry elections. All of that loosens the
:06:05. > :06:10.habit of voting for a particular party all the time. But, is another
:06:10. > :06:13.explanation that people are finding new ways of doing politics that
:06:13. > :06:19.don't involve the political parties. For example, the campaigning
:06:19. > :06:24.organisation, 38 Degrees, is, well, let them explain. What we are
:06:24. > :06:27.really about is people power, it is about over a million ordinary
:06:27. > :06:31.citizens of the United Kingdom, coming together to decide on the
:06:31. > :06:35.campaigns they want to run together, and then working together to make
:06:35. > :06:39.change happen. We don't run for election, we don't cosy up to any
:06:39. > :06:43.of the political parties, we are very much about staying independent,
:06:43. > :06:46.listening to ordinary people, and using our pooled resources, as lots
:06:46. > :06:50.of ordinary people all coming together, to influence politicians
:06:50. > :06:54.of all stripes and persuasions. Since the Second World War, there
:06:54. > :06:59.has been a decline in tribunal politics, to be replaced -- tribal
:06:59. > :07:02.politics, to be replaced by consumer politics. Every now and
:07:03. > :07:07.again the consumers stop shopping in the big brand name stores, and
:07:07. > :07:11.go boutiques instead. George Galloway MP is here,
:07:11. > :07:16.congratulations. Thank you. Are you going to be any more conscientious
:07:16. > :07:21.representing the people of Bradford, than the people of Bethnal Green?
:07:21. > :07:25.Don't start by insulting me, don't let's get off on a bad start.
:07:25. > :07:27.true, you only attended 8% of votes during your time there. As I have
:07:27. > :07:33.explained to you and others many times before, in the Commons you
:07:33. > :07:36.can only vote for the Government's motion, or the leader of the
:07:36. > :07:41.opposition's amendment, and I seldom wished to vote for either in
:07:41. > :07:46.that five years. My attendance in parliament was daily. My attendance
:07:46. > :07:50.in votes depended on what the issue under discussion was. Do you know
:07:51. > :07:55.what Jeremy, I won, you have to get used today that, I won a great
:07:55. > :07:59.victory. I have already congratulated you? Not sincerely,
:07:59. > :08:03.evidently. Quite sincerely, I have said it was one of the most epic
:08:04. > :08:09.victories in recent electoral business? Evidently the people of
:08:09. > :08:14.Bradford West think so, they voted for me in an overwhelming number.
:08:14. > :08:21.I'm quite struck by the phrase you used there, the "Bradford Spring",
:08:21. > :08:26.it is an odd choice of word by a man who described President Assad
:08:26. > :08:29.as the last stand in Syria. Please don't judge me. I think it is an
:08:29. > :08:34.odd form of words? Evidently the people of Bradford West, who matter
:08:34. > :08:40.to me far more than you do, are the judge of what I say and what I do.
:08:40. > :08:45.And they judged in a democratic election, 18,000 of them, to put
:08:45. > :08:48.their X next to my name. They evidently were not put off by your
:08:48. > :08:54.misrepresentations about my views about Syria. I have seen the e-mail,
:08:54. > :09:00.you did describe Assad's Syria as the last castle of Arab dignity?
:09:00. > :09:06.did in 2005. 2010, in fact. wasn't. The 14th of August, 2010.
:09:06. > :09:10.My speech in Syria was in 2005. are talking about an e-mail, not
:09:10. > :09:15.your speech when you talked about what a good chap Assad was. That
:09:15. > :09:19.was at the time he was sleeping in Buckingham Palace, in the Queen's
:09:19. > :09:24.stair bedroom. He wasn't sleeping in Buckingham Palace in August
:09:24. > :09:29.2010? The Syrian people are the last castle of Arab dignity, they
:09:29. > :09:33.are the last stand to Israeli occupation, and imperialist
:09:33. > :09:37.intrigue in the area. I don't think that was an issue in the Bradford
:09:37. > :09:43.West by-election, or great importance to the people watching.
:09:43. > :09:48.Why did you call it the Bradford Spring? A big uprising of people,
:09:48. > :09:52.democratic uprising, unin theed by you, you didn't send -- unnoticed
:09:52. > :09:56.by you, you didn't send anybody there, the London media didn't send
:09:56. > :09:58.anybody there, and yet it happened, has to be characterised as
:09:58. > :10:03.something new in British politics. They were not voting on my views
:10:03. > :10:06.about Syria, neither on my views about how to vote in the House of
:10:06. > :10:09.Commons divisions, which are largely meaningless to most of them.
:10:09. > :10:13.Which is what this discussion should really be about. We will get
:10:13. > :10:19.on to, that I want to get one other point with you, why did you say
:10:19. > :10:24."God knows who is a Muslim, and he knows who is not, I George Galloway
:10:24. > :10:28.don't drink alcohol, and I have fought for Muslims at home and
:10:28. > :10:31.abroad all my life". Why did you find it necessary? Because the
:10:31. > :10:38.Labour candidate was going around campaigning on the twin basis that
:10:38. > :10:41.he was a Pakistani and a Muslim. So I believed that playing, shameless
:10:41. > :10:45.playing of ethnicity as an electoral card was something that
:10:45. > :10:50.needed to be answered. And orderly, of course, if it weren't me that
:10:50. > :10:54.were being accused of t you would be the sternest critic. I have
:10:54. > :11:02.never had anyone ask for my vote by telling me how much I drink, I was
:11:02. > :11:06.curious? I don't drink, and he does. Let's talk a little bit about what
:11:06. > :11:10.this victory for George Galloway, it is a sensational result. Let's
:11:10. > :11:14.talk about what it represents, Ed Milliband was talking today about
:11:14. > :11:17.how your party needs to listen, why didn't he realise that before?
:11:17. > :11:22.has always spoken about that. It was a sensational result, to be
:11:22. > :11:25.honest, Jeremy, you do a disservice to the people of Bradford West, by
:11:25. > :11:29.focusing on George, does he drink, what he said about this. I'm just
:11:29. > :11:35.interested in what he chose to say? In a democracy, you have to listen
:11:35. > :11:39.when people vote in those numbers. And clearly the people of Bradford
:11:39. > :11:43.West, they were trying to get a message through to the political
:11:43. > :11:47.establishment. I think the underlying message, it is not just
:11:47. > :11:52.issues about Afghanistan, although whether you live in Bradford Orton
:11:52. > :11:56.bridge wells, you wonder what on earth we are -- Bradford or
:11:56. > :11:59.Tunbridge Wells, you wonder what on earth we are doing in Afghanistan.
:11:59. > :12:04.It is a mistake to write off Bradford West, we need to listen to
:12:04. > :12:08.the message. What is going on, do you think, in people's attitudes to
:12:08. > :12:11.the mainstream parties? They are fall ago I way from them, we have
:12:11. > :12:15.consistently lower attendances, the attempts of both the Tories and
:12:15. > :12:20.Labour to launch themselves, in some sense, as mass membership
:12:20. > :12:23.parties, has largely been a failure. I think the kind of tit for tat
:12:23. > :12:28.business of politics, the liberals came into the last election, on the
:12:28. > :12:35.face of it, with an honest desire to try to change that, and to try
:12:35. > :12:39.introduce a more. They fooled us all. Yes, it fooled me, and in a
:12:39. > :12:42.sense I didn't think they would be so feeble when it got to the
:12:42. > :12:46.negotiating procedure. I thought it was a party that understood how
:12:46. > :12:53.proportional Government worked, they might have been prepared to
:12:53. > :12:55.sit down longer. It is over for the Lib Dems, every time there is a
:12:55. > :13:00.sensational by-election, going back to Orpington, people say this is
:13:00. > :13:03.the end of politic, as we know, funnily enough, the two parties are
:13:03. > :13:07.still reinstating themselves. you notice it in the Conservative
:13:07. > :13:11.Party as well? I think so, this has been a wake-up call for all the
:13:11. > :13:14.political parties T may well be that a future by-election, even in
:13:14. > :13:18.this parliament, that the Conservatives may have big problems.
:13:18. > :13:21.Part of the issue was the way we do politics, everything is focused on
:13:21. > :13:24.the marginal seats. What happened in Bradford, and what was
:13:24. > :13:27.interesting, I don't think Labour had any idea about any data about
:13:27. > :13:32.where the voting preferences where, come the close of polls, they have
:13:32. > :13:35.thought we have won again like the last 40 years, that was why it was
:13:35. > :13:42.such a shock. Did Tory polling predict George Galloway would win?
:13:42. > :13:46.No it didn't. You were all caught out? I'm not making an anti-Labour
:13:46. > :13:50.point, the whole focus of politics is on the 80-100 marginal seats,
:13:50. > :13:54.where everything matters, and all the resource goes in. The small
:13:54. > :13:57.armies of members that all the parties have are working. What is
:13:57. > :14:00.your solution? There are not easy solutions to it, the reality is,
:14:00. > :14:05.this is one of the difficulties, there was great excitement when the
:14:05. > :14:14.coalition came in two weeks ago, about fresh politics. No there
:14:14. > :14:19.wasn't. From some people there was. I detected none of that, I must say.
:14:19. > :14:22.Any policies. You need to get out more. Part of the problem now is
:14:22. > :14:25.essentially we have got diminished living standards in this country
:14:25. > :14:28.for the next decade, it is going to be incredibly difficult. No
:14:28. > :14:32.Government of whatever stripe is going to be popular, and no
:14:32. > :14:36.opposition is going to be trusted, not least because we may well be in
:14:36. > :14:41.a situation like the 1960s and 1970s, where we are chopping and
:14:41. > :14:44.changing at each election going forward. It may be. Isn't the point
:14:44. > :14:49.about Bradford, George was campaigning, when you were
:14:49. > :14:53.campaigning you were saying there is this system among certain Urdu
:14:53. > :14:58.people in the Labour Party, in Bradford, there is a system
:14:58. > :15:04.essentially of patronage, it is good old style politic, there is
:15:04. > :15:11.that kind of system operating at a national level as well. The
:15:11. > :15:16.political class offers cynakures. George Galloway? It is a parallel
:15:16. > :15:21.universe, Mark is a gentleman and expensively educated one. Free, I
:15:21. > :15:25.was a grammar schoolboy, you would be pleased to know. He might be
:15:25. > :15:30.from Mars to the streets of Manningham, there, youth
:15:30. > :15:33.unemployment has risen 40% in 12 weeks and tripled in a year. The
:15:33. > :15:38.mass of people are in poverty in British terms, not relative to
:15:38. > :15:42.other countries in the world, but in British terms, mass poverty. And
:15:42. > :15:45.these politicians, not Diane, but the political leaders, speak in a
:15:45. > :15:50.different language to them, and about different things to them.
:15:50. > :15:54.is a rather beautiful inverted world, isn't it, Bradford, George,
:15:54. > :15:59.you have an enormous hole in the middle of your city, where there is
:15:59. > :16:04.a westfield was meant to be, unlike the westfield on Stratford Marshes.
:16:04. > :16:07.These are parts of the country that never recovered from the
:16:07. > :16:10.deindustrialisation of the Thatcher years, and now the coalition is
:16:10. > :16:13.slashing public sector spending, no wonder there is no hope.
:16:13. > :16:16.interesting thing about George Galloway, even his critics will
:16:16. > :16:25.acknowledge, that George Galloway gave people, who voted for him,
:16:25. > :16:29.something to hope for. Let's hope? I think rather misguidedly.
:16:29. > :16:32.George's problem and Respect's problem, they are in a coalition
:16:32. > :16:35.with rather unlikely fellow travellers, who don't necessarily
:16:35. > :16:40.want to travel with George. sounds like the Lib Dems and the
:16:40. > :16:44.Tories. Namely the SWP, all of these groups, to some extent,
:16:44. > :16:48.demand representation, and represent a part of the vote, we
:16:48. > :16:52.don't have an electoral system capable of reflecting that level of
:16:52. > :17:00.diversity. All due respect, no pun intended to George, what he had in
:17:00. > :17:05.Bradford was a Cinergy between the conditions he -- synerg y between
:17:05. > :17:12.conditions in Bradford, and the two issues that matter, British foreign
:17:12. > :17:22.policy, and disafegs with the local Labour Party. It is not just
:17:22. > :17:24.
:17:24. > :17:32.Muslims who were very disillusioned by the Iraq war. Professor Self
:17:32. > :17:41.will want to hear this. The Bradford West is asset nick as it
:17:41. > :17:43.can be, I won 8 -- as ethnically as it can be, I won 85% of the votes,
:17:43. > :17:49.because your parties absolutely betrayed the university community,
:17:49. > :17:51.who from this September will be paying �9,000 in tuition fees, that
:17:51. > :17:56.was not a Muslim issue, that was a young people issues. How are you
:17:56. > :18:01.going to reverse that. I'm not going to reverse it, but I will
:18:01. > :18:05.speak out for them. As has happened already, I am heard when I speak.
:18:06. > :18:09.People are paying attention to what I'm saying, because of this result.
:18:09. > :18:19.But essentially you will be sideswipeing actual parliamentary
:18:19. > :18:22.parties, you are a lone MP in this. That question George Galloway
:18:22. > :18:26.raises, how the Liberal Democrats behaved on a very public pledge, in
:18:26. > :18:32.the first sniff of power for decades, they immediately renege
:18:32. > :18:39.upon, that has destroyed a tremendous amount of trust? It is a
:18:39. > :18:44.political supooku. You backed them? I voted for them, I wouldn't say I
:18:44. > :18:49.backed them. Gullible Professor Self. Who else would I vote for!
:18:49. > :18:52.They are heading for the knackers yard. It is over. I wonder if this
:18:52. > :18:55.sort of behaviour is the consequence of coalition, what
:18:55. > :19:01.happens when you have coalition Governments? There is an element of
:19:01. > :19:02.it, we are not used to them. After an election a coalition agreement
:19:03. > :19:09.is reached, a tablet of stone, rather than manifestos put to the
:19:09. > :19:11.public at large. That is a problem and will cause a sense of
:19:11. > :19:16.disillusionment. There is no legitimate mandate for quite a lot
:19:16. > :19:21.of what is going on. A lot of that is driven by the economic situation,
:19:22. > :19:27.by which, again, none of the political parties, Labour,
:19:27. > :19:31.Conservatives, Liberal Democrats, levelled with the public about how
:19:31. > :19:35.it was. There was all this �6 million being the difference
:19:35. > :19:39.between Armageddon. There were some of us who said at the time it was
:19:39. > :19:45.not the way we go about it. disillusion, perhaps not
:19:45. > :19:49.disillusion, but the fact that the voter has become more promiscuous,
:19:49. > :19:56.more volatile, more changable, it is something that has been going on
:19:56. > :20:01.for 40-50 years. Why is that? Coming up in the next election,
:20:01. > :20:07.with the diminish of vote for the two main parties. Will probably go
:20:07. > :20:10.up to the next election because of the collapse of the Liberal
:20:10. > :20:15.Democrat vote. But I don't disagree with what you are saying. The clip
:20:15. > :20:19.earlier on was very interesting, actually what you have is a lot of
:20:19. > :20:23.small, single-issue protest groups, who basically are very targeted,
:20:23. > :20:27.and they deliver. The feeling is the political class make as lot of
:20:27. > :20:30.promises every time, and partly because of global factors, and the
:20:30. > :20:36.power of international business is not able to deliver. You can take
:20:36. > :20:40.your concerns elsewhere, to a charity, you can tweet, join a
:20:40. > :20:43.pressure group? Talking about 38 Degrees, if they have a million
:20:43. > :20:48.members, that is hundreds of thousands more than any of the
:20:48. > :20:53.political parties have, the Stop The War coalition moved millions in
:20:53. > :20:57.the run up to the Iraq war. People are in CND and all sorts of things,
:20:57. > :21:00.they no longer trust parties. not one or the other, sing-issue
:21:00. > :21:04.pressure groups or political parties, they work together. None
:21:04. > :21:09.of this feeds into legislation, you can be as mean as you like about
:21:09. > :21:13.the Lib Dems, and the reality of it is, if you are a Lib Dem party
:21:13. > :21:18.member, in theory you have a say in what goes into the manifesto, that
:21:18. > :21:23.is why the Lib Dem betrayal looks so bad F you are a member of the
:21:23. > :21:26.Tory Party, you wake up to find you are introducing legislation about
:21:26. > :21:30.the reorganisation of the National Health Service, which you had no
:21:30. > :21:35.part in and you didn't vote for. They also cut the top rate of tax,
:21:35. > :21:39.and they are happy about that. disconnect of being part of the
:21:39. > :21:43.Tory Party and the Government. are a less democratic party in that
:21:43. > :21:47.sense, in the sense we have always taken the view to get on, and we
:21:47. > :21:57.want to get on into Government and the team get on and do it. Unless
:21:57. > :22:01.you want everyone to disappear in thisg loop of civic mindedness and
:22:01. > :22:07.internet voting, people want to feel they have a stake in
:22:07. > :22:12.legislation. Tory voters haven't been delivered to, of course they
:22:12. > :22:16.delivered for key story voters, cutting the price of tax and
:22:16. > :22:20.pasties. This is a Tory Government, Tory-led Government. Kept in power
:22:21. > :22:24.by the Liberal Democrats. There is a long-term issue whether we have
:22:24. > :22:28.distinction between executive on the one signed and legislatures,
:22:28. > :22:33.the Members of Parliament are legislatures to vote on, not being
:22:33. > :22:39.whipped through as quickly as there is. Let's let George Galloway have
:22:39. > :22:44.the last word? Will is on to the point, there is a pardigm shift,
:22:44. > :22:48.the system has failed, the Tweedledy and Tweedle dumb, if a
:22:48. > :22:56.back side could have three cheeks, they are sitting in the House of
:22:56. > :23:02.Commons, and shake opposition, they all stand for the same things, neo-
:23:02. > :23:04.liberal economics, expenditure, and war abroad, that has to be smashed
:23:04. > :23:07.into. It always used to be said that
:23:07. > :23:12.whatever you thought of individual politician, by and large British
:23:12. > :23:16.politics as a whole were pretty clean, and by comparison with
:23:16. > :23:20.somewhere like Italy and Nigeria they are, but they are tarnished,
:23:20. > :23:23."cash for questions", cash for honours, cash for dinner with the
:23:23. > :23:26.Prime Minister. At the heart of many scandals are the lobbyist,
:23:26. > :23:30.retained by companies to promote their interests in parliament. A
:23:30. > :23:33.bad smell, or essential element in a modern democracy, as they call
:23:33. > :23:40.themselves. We will talk about that with Lord Bell shortly. First we
:23:40. > :23:44.report. Accusations of cosy dinners, party
:23:44. > :23:50.cash and a voice at the top table. Peter Cruddas resigned as
:23:50. > :23:54.Conservative treasurer ten days ago now, after the Sunday Times caught
:23:54. > :24:00.him apparently peddling Premier League access to senior politicians.
:24:00. > :24:04.Marked a dams is the lobbyist who tipped off the paper, the claim in
:24:04. > :24:08.this case was influenced for party donations. Few things shock me in
:24:08. > :24:11.politics these days. It is not the way I believe politics or lobbying
:24:11. > :24:15.should be done. I was certainly surprised by it, and thought it
:24:15. > :24:21.merited further investigation. When the Tory treasurer quit, it
:24:21. > :24:23.was the latest in a long line of lobbying scandals, involving party
:24:23. > :24:27.big wigs, the public seems to believe that politicians are
:24:27. > :24:32.willing to do favours in return to cash. Whether that is into the
:24:32. > :24:38.party's coffers, or straight into their own bank accounts.
:24:38. > :24:43.And, is politicians are both sides -- it is politicians from both
:24:43. > :24:47.sides of the cabinet that have been caught out. Three Labour members
:24:47. > :24:52.were suspended in 2010 for a scandal, Stephen Byers was filmed
:24:52. > :24:57.as saying he could be a cab for hire. Before coming to power, David
:24:57. > :25:02.Cameron promised to shine a light on the business and the scandal.
:25:02. > :25:08.is the next big thing waiting to happen. It is an issue that exposes
:25:08. > :25:11.the far too cosy relationship between politics, business and
:25:11. > :25:15.money. That was before Defence Secretary Liam Fox was forced to
:25:15. > :25:25.step down, not over cash, but because of his cosy relationship
:25:25. > :25:31.with lobbyist Adam Werrity. The wider question hanging over all
:25:31. > :25:36.this, is just how much power big- name lobbyists really have, and how
:25:36. > :25:40.much is just sales bluster. Calls for stronger regulation intensified
:25:41. > :25:50.last year, when undercover reporters taped executives from a
:25:51. > :25:59.
:25:59. > :26:03.public affairs company, boasting of What concerned me is the way they
:26:03. > :26:06.were decribing that they could have a quiet word with people inside
:26:06. > :26:10.Number Ten, and inside Government, who would sort the problem out.
:26:10. > :26:15.That again is not the way that lobbying, in my view, should be
:26:15. > :26:18.done. Newsnight understands the body that
:26:18. > :26:23.represents the PR industry, will tomorrow clear the company of
:26:23. > :26:26.breaking its own voluntary Code of Conduct. Even so, calls for Britain
:26:26. > :26:30.to put in place statutory regulation are now getting louder.
:26:30. > :26:36.I think we have seen that it is the next big scandal, that keeps on
:26:36. > :26:43.coming out of Government. We see it with the donor scandal, we saw it
:26:43. > :26:48.with the claims that Bell Potting er made, the MPs saying they are
:26:48. > :26:53.like cabs for hire, and Lords that will accept cash. The solution to
:26:53. > :26:57.it is to open up lobbying, to public scrutiny, to allow people to
:26:57. > :27:00.see what influence people are having over what policies, and
:27:00. > :27:03.crucially how much money they are spending in the process. While
:27:03. > :27:07.there is still the suspicion and not knowing who is influencing who,
:27:07. > :27:13.then we will continue to get scandals. The Government is now
:27:13. > :27:16.planning to make some lobbyist reveal exactly who they represent.
:27:16. > :27:23.Critics, though, claim the new rules lack any teeth, and won't
:27:23. > :27:31.stop the scandals. Here to discuss this is Lord Bell, chairman of
:27:31. > :27:34.Chime Communications, and the parent company of Bell Potting er.
:27:34. > :27:39.When you talk on President Assad's wife and others, do you think here
:27:39. > :27:47.is a misunderstood person, or here is money? I never worked for
:27:47. > :27:52.General Pinochet. I worked for the Pinochet Foundation, which is not
:27:52. > :27:57.the General. In terms of Mrs Assad, we were asked to set up a
:27:57. > :28:02.communications office. In terms of the Pinochet Foundation, we were
:28:02. > :28:06.asked to stop him being wrongly extradited to Madrid. And your
:28:06. > :28:13.motivation is? I work for clients. Business? Yes. Is there anyone you
:28:13. > :28:18.wouldn't accept? I wouldn't work for anybody I couldn't do a good
:28:18. > :28:22.job for, and anybody that wouldn't be prepared to do what is necessary.
:28:22. > :28:25.You wouldn't object on moral grounds? I'm not a priest, I have
:28:25. > :28:30.my own personal morality, which is mean, I know the difference between
:28:30. > :28:34.right and wrong. What is your job when you are representing them?
:28:34. > :28:37.are effectively messengers. We devise strategy, and the
:28:37. > :28:41.methodology, and the way things work, we talk about the opportunity
:28:41. > :28:44.people have to change things, if they don't like the way they are
:28:44. > :28:48.going. We advise them on who they should talk to. We very rarely talk
:28:48. > :28:54.to ministers themselves, we nearly always ask the clients to do it.
:28:54. > :29:02.You saw on the piece of tape, one of your colleagues both boasting
:29:02. > :29:05.about having a conversation at 2.30? You haven't seen all the tape,
:29:05. > :29:10.it is 3.5 minutes, out of an hour- and-a-half's tape, if you think
:29:10. > :29:14.that is a fair representation you are deluded. The reality is, what
:29:14. > :29:18.he said was, he was asked if he could get a message to Downing
:29:18. > :29:21.Street, by 2.30 in the afternoon, because James Dyson was going with
:29:21. > :29:25.the Prime Minister to China, and they wanted to bring up the issue
:29:25. > :29:31.of copyright, he said he was able to deliver that message within an
:29:31. > :29:34.hour. He boasted he delivered it, and that the Prime Minister then
:29:34. > :29:40.raised it with the Chinese Prime Minister? It rather shraoints the
:29:40. > :29:45.way you discuss the thing, both -- slants, the way you discuss the
:29:45. > :29:49.things. Boasting and discussing it is not the same thing. How come you
:29:49. > :29:53.don't say to me, why did the business of investigative
:29:53. > :29:58.journalism pretend they were a group, give us credentials and
:29:58. > :30:04.create a website. Probably the only way to get inside your
:30:04. > :30:08.organisation? Last week a member of the BIJ asked me a series of
:30:08. > :30:13.questions about lobbying, I answered him, he didn't like what
:30:13. > :30:18.he said and asked me could he exaggerate him, I have a copy of
:30:18. > :30:27.the interview. You can talk to me about that, or this, which is
:30:27. > :30:34.rubbish, and in the mid-of a PCC complaint, and upheld by the PRCA.
:30:34. > :30:38.The public relations association. You can dismiss it, and belittle
:30:38. > :30:42.anything you want to. But if you want to have a fair argument, don't
:30:42. > :30:46.discuss what people on there, like Marked a dams, who had nothing to
:30:46. > :30:51.do with us whatsoever. He makes a complaint. Why not a register of
:30:51. > :30:55.lobbyist, so we know who you are and who you represent? By all means.
:30:55. > :30:59.They exist all over the country, we work in Washington, we sign up to
:30:59. > :31:03.it and declare all the relations. Can we know all your clients?
:31:03. > :31:06.can know all of them, except the British and American Government,
:31:06. > :31:11.with whom we have had contracts, over which there is a requirement
:31:11. > :31:16.of confidentiality. A mandatory register would ensure transparency,
:31:16. > :31:19.wouldn't it? Not of what you want. It would tell you who works with
:31:19. > :31:23.what chiend client t would never be up-to-date. It would be impossible
:31:23. > :31:27.to manage. It has been tried before. It doesn't work in America. You
:31:27. > :31:31.should know this, the BIJ claimed what they were doing to us was
:31:31. > :31:34.based on an investigation done in America, where they have had a
:31:34. > :31:37.statutory register of lobbyists for 45 years, that investigation was
:31:37. > :31:43.done five years ago. Where on earth is the logic of that. When David
:31:43. > :31:47.Cameron says, as you heard him say, a bit of his speech there, a PR man
:31:47. > :31:52.himself, indeed. They don't know who is meeting whom, and they don't
:31:52. > :31:55.know if any favours are being exchanged o which outside
:31:55. > :32:01.influences are wielding an unhealthy interest? You should ask
:32:01. > :32:06.him. He's a former PR man? That is not a lobbyist. You don't have the
:32:06. > :32:10.faintest idea what a lobbyist is or not, nor does the consultation
:32:10. > :32:14.paper. Was it a sensible thing for him to say? I don't think it was a
:32:15. > :32:18.senseable thing for him to say, I'm sure he regrets it. So it wasn't?
:32:18. > :32:23.No, because he given a hook for everyone who wants a statutory
:32:23. > :32:27.register of lobbyist, that is what everyone wants, it is what Marked a
:32:27. > :32:31.dams is fighting against, and what the Independent numbers wants. They
:32:31. > :32:36.are lobbying for a statutory register of lobbyists and they are
:32:36. > :32:38.paid for it. Aren't they entitled to know who is getting the ears of
:32:38. > :32:42.ministers in a Government they elect? Absolutely. You wouldn't
:32:42. > :32:45.have a problem? We have no secrecy about our client list, it is
:32:45. > :32:49.published on the website. It is available to everybody. We have
:32:49. > :32:53.never, ever said we won't publish our clients, nor have we ever been
:32:53. > :32:57.untransparent, if there is such a word, about the things we. Do we
:32:57. > :33:00.ask questions about lunches we hold with politicians, dinners we hold
:33:00. > :33:02.with politicians wrecks openly declare them, the politicians
:33:02. > :33:06.declare them, we tell people what they are about, and tell people
:33:06. > :33:09.what the rules are. We even have sessions with politicians and
:33:09. > :33:14.journalists present. We sit there and let the journalists write about
:33:14. > :33:18.it. All this rubbish about the lack of transparency is just that,
:33:18. > :33:21.rubbish and claptrap, put up by people who want to prove that
:33:22. > :33:27.something unpleasant is going on, or you so charmingly put, that we
:33:27. > :33:33.smell. Actually I don't smell! I said, some people say rb there is
:33:33. > :33:38.a bad smell. OK, yes. We don't see you very often. No you
:33:38. > :33:43.doint. But I love seeing you. beginning to see why.
:33:43. > :33:46.I'm beginning to rather regret inviting you. Don't be like that.
:33:46. > :33:50.I'm serious, when you lock at the state of the Conservative Party now,
:33:50. > :33:53.from your long experience, what do you think, what advice would you
:33:53. > :33:58.give them if you were doing your old job? I think the problem was
:33:58. > :34:02.summed up in that discussion you had with George Galloway et al, it
:34:02. > :34:05.is the problem of the coalition Government, there is not a majority
:34:05. > :34:09.Government in place, the majority of people are not satisfied. You
:34:09. > :34:11.have lot of people voting Liberal Democrats who don't like what is
:34:11. > :34:14.going on, and people who voted Conservatives don't like what is
:34:14. > :34:18.going on, a lot of people who voted Labour didn't like Labour and what
:34:18. > :34:22.they Z you have lot of dissatisfied people, plus you have a terrible
:34:22. > :34:25.period of austerity, where people are having a bad time, everybody,
:34:25. > :34:33.were the top to the bottom is having a bad time, compared to five
:34:33. > :34:36.years ago. The fact that where they were on five years ago was based on
:34:36. > :34:40.borrowed money they have forgotten, as we all. Do it is a troublesome
:34:40. > :34:44.world, you have a hell of a lot of strange things going on, the risk
:34:44. > :34:47.of nuclear war in Iran, problems all over the world, protest
:34:47. > :34:50.movements everywhere. Which the Internet causes and creates, there
:34:50. > :34:56.is a great big gutter of protest in the Internet. People can publish
:34:56. > :35:00.all sorts of claptrap on it, and frequently do, about you and me,
:35:00. > :35:05.your Wikipedia entry isn't so great either, any more than mine is. This
:35:05. > :35:08.goes on, it is a phenomenon, and we have to cope with it, it makes
:35:08. > :35:11.communications very difficult to deal with. As far as the party is
:35:11. > :35:14.concerned, they should have a proper chairman, like in the good
:35:14. > :35:18.old days, somebody who is active. They should try to separate the
:35:18. > :35:20.positions of the Conservative Party as a political entity from the
:35:20. > :35:23.Government, which is not a Conservative Government, it is a
:35:23. > :35:25.coalition Government. If they could achieve that separation, and
:35:25. > :35:28.actually bring some people into communication work in the
:35:28. > :35:31.Government who know what they are doing, then we might actually end
:35:31. > :35:35.up with a different situation. Thank you very much.
:35:35. > :35:40.Tomorrow night here in the studio, the Mayor of London mud wrestles
:35:40. > :35:44.with people trying to take his job from him. Aung San Suu Kyi's
:35:44. > :35:49.victory in the Burmese by-election set off more celebrations, more
:35:49. > :35:53.predictions of a prop transition to democracy. But in the state of
:35:53. > :35:58.Kachin, the elections didn't happen, cancelled because of fears about
:35:58. > :36:04.security, and the war between Kachin rebels and the Government
:36:04. > :36:13.forces. Neither aid agencies or journalists are allowed into Kachin,
:36:13. > :36:18.but our Sue Lloyd Roberts managed to get there for Newsnight.
:36:18. > :36:22."We can defeat the enemy" sing the new recruits to the army, at their
:36:22. > :36:25.training ground on the slim area of land they still control.
:36:25. > :36:30.While freedom and democracy are being celebrated elsewhere in the
:36:30. > :36:36.country, their's is one of several ethnic armies, who have been
:36:36. > :36:40.fighting the Burmese army, off and on, for the last half century.
:36:40. > :36:44.For the Kachin, the fighting is very much on going. Training has
:36:44. > :36:53.been cut from three to two months, to get these men and women to the
:36:53. > :36:57.front, with real guns, in a hurry. TRANSLATION: Burmese army soldiers
:36:57. > :37:03.came into our village, they werefying their guns, shooting at
:37:03. > :37:07.the old people who couldn't -- were firing their guns, shooting the old
:37:07. > :37:12.people who couldn't win, they raped our women and set fire to our homes.
:37:12. > :37:15.I'm old, I'm 42, but that's why I signed up.
:37:15. > :37:24.The landscape is now littered with burned out villages, from where
:37:24. > :37:28.people fled their homes, with their lives, and little else.
:37:28. > :37:32.TRANSLATION: We don't have enough food. We left with nothing. And so
:37:32. > :37:37.my husband crept back to the village to get some rice. When he
:37:37. > :37:45.didn't return, I went back, and found his body.
:37:45. > :37:49.They had shot him in the chest, and stabbed him in the face. When they
:37:49. > :37:57.hear the Burmese army is on its way, they run. This man's wife had given
:37:57. > :38:00.birth just days earlier, and couldn't keep up.
:38:00. > :38:05.TRANSLATION: The next day I went back to look for her, and found
:38:05. > :38:10.they had killed her with the spear. Entering through her rib cage on
:38:10. > :38:14.the left, and all the way through to her arm on the right. I found
:38:14. > :38:22.our baby, barely alive, lying next to her mother. I just grabbed her
:38:22. > :38:30.and ran. TRANSLATION: Everyone was running,
:38:30. > :38:37.but my mother didn't, and they shot her. I went back and found her body,
:38:37. > :38:47.they had thrown it in the deep hole that had been dug as a cesspit. It
:38:47. > :38:51.took ten of us to get the body out. And then I buried her.
:38:51. > :38:56.survivors, tens of thousands of them, are now crowded into
:38:56. > :38:59.makeshift camps, where there aren't enough basics like food and water,
:38:59. > :39:04.let alone any hope of counselling for the trauma they have endured.
:39:04. > :39:08.We have grown accustomed to hearing report of brutality, about the
:39:08. > :39:12.military dictatorship that has ruled Burma for 50 years, but all
:39:12. > :39:16.these recent stories of atrocities, have taken place within the last
:39:16. > :39:20.few months, even though the allegedly reforming Government held
:39:20. > :39:24.elections over a year ago, and promised change. The people of
:39:24. > :39:29.Kachin, and others, can be forgiven for being confused.
:39:29. > :39:33.The Burmese Government don't want the outside world to see these
:39:33. > :39:38.people, because their might contradicts the new, caring, image
:39:38. > :39:42.they want to present. They are restricting aid getting in from the
:39:42. > :39:46.international community, although it is desperately needed.
:39:46. > :39:52.The administrator says there is more than 1800 people in this camp,
:39:52. > :39:56.and there is not enough food, medicine or shelter.
:39:56. > :40:01.The children might find it all a game now, he says, but when the
:40:01. > :40:11.rainy season starts, it will be a nightmare.
:40:11. > :40:13.
:40:13. > :40:17.TB has broken out in the camps, and malnutrition is prevalent.
:40:17. > :40:20.My son isn't recovering from his illness and isn't growing, she says,
:40:20. > :40:27.because she has nothing to feed him with.
:40:27. > :40:30.Another mother, with four children, fears for her unborn child.
:40:30. > :40:33.TRANSLATION: The children say they are hungry all the time, and I'm
:40:33. > :40:39.not getting the nutrition a pregnant woman needs, we long to
:40:39. > :40:45.return to our villages, but how can we. The Burmese hate the Kachin
:40:45. > :40:49.people, and their army will only attack us again.
:40:49. > :40:53.Both sides blame the other for starting the fighting in June last
:40:53. > :41:00.year. With the Burmese army using artillery and mortars, against the
:41:00. > :41:03.Kachin, who are armed with AK-47s and home made weapons.
:41:03. > :41:07.The fighting intensified in December, at about the time the
:41:07. > :41:13.American a second, Hillary Clinton, arrived in Burma, to encourage the
:41:13. > :41:16.Government with its reform programme. Land mines cause them
:41:16. > :41:22.most casualties, among the Kachin army of some 20,000, who are now
:41:22. > :41:26.struggling to hold out against the Burmese army's half million.
:41:26. > :41:35.Over 100 soldiers have died, hundreds more have been injured,
:41:35. > :41:40.and no-one knows the number of civilian dead. This 31-year-old
:41:40. > :41:44.lost his leg in December, and says he wants to get back to fighting.
:41:44. > :41:47.The doctor in charge of the military hospital says that
:41:47. > :41:53.soldiers get the best treatment available, but that's not up to
:41:53. > :41:56.much. TRANSLATION: We lack medicines,
:41:56. > :42:00.prosthetics, everything really. They want me to get these men back
:42:00. > :42:04.to the front, but considering the facilities we have here, that's
:42:04. > :42:07.just not realistic. The frontlines are just a few
:42:07. > :42:12.hundred metres away from the hospital, and from where people are
:42:12. > :42:16.living. We can see the Burmese position on the hill opposite, and
:42:16. > :42:19.no-one's too sure when they might attack next.
:42:19. > :42:23.TRANSLATION: We could attack their position and probably overrun it,
:42:23. > :42:30.but we don't want to go on the offensive. We wait for them to
:42:30. > :42:35.attack us. It's quiet here today, the captain explains, because the
:42:35. > :42:38.fighting has moved further north, where the Burmese army is attacking
:42:38. > :42:42.daily. Shortly after Hillary Clinton's visit, and under pressure
:42:42. > :42:50.from the international community, Burma's new President ordered the
:42:50. > :42:54.Burmese army to stop fighting. Why haven't they? TRANSLATION: I think
:42:54. > :42:58.there are two reasons, the first is that, under the new constitution,
:42:58. > :43:01.the President doesn't have that much power over the army. And
:43:01. > :43:08.secondly, the President doesn't have the support of the army
:43:08. > :43:12.generals because he wants to reform the country and they don't.
:43:12. > :43:18.Burmese generals have, for a long time, enjoyed the wealth of these
:43:18. > :43:23.border areas, which are rich in timber, gold and Jade. If they are
:43:23. > :43:31.at odds with Burma's President, this could slow down both reform
:43:31. > :43:35.and a solution to Burma's long- running ethnic conflict.
:43:35. > :43:39.The mainly Christian Kachin say they don't want independence from
:43:39. > :43:44.Burma, they want equal treatment within a federal Burma. Their
:43:44. > :43:47.political party was excluded from the elections in 2010, and the
:43:47. > :43:54.Burmese Government have postponed by-elections in Kachin state,
:43:54. > :43:59.blaming security problems. TRANSLATION: What the Kachin want
:43:59. > :44:03.is equal rights. If they were to offer genuine democratic union,
:44:03. > :44:08.then this conflict could be solved. On going peace talks between the
:44:08. > :44:14.Kachin and the Burmese Government are taking place in China. The
:44:14. > :44:19.border between Kachin and China runs through the main town year,
:44:19. > :44:22.and China is weary of the on going war on its doorstep. With the
:44:22. > :44:28.delegates returning back through the border post, after the latest
:44:28. > :44:31.round, say they have failed to get agreement, why? TRANSLATION: To get
:44:31. > :44:34.agreement, the Burmese Government is being asked to withdraw their
:44:34. > :44:38.troops. Politically the Government is making advances towards
:44:38. > :44:41.democracy. They have included the Burmese opposition, under Aung San
:44:41. > :44:45.Suu Kyi, released political prisoner, and they say they want to
:44:45. > :44:55.reach an agreement with the ethnic groups, but there will be no
:44:55. > :44:57.
:44:57. > :45:00.progress with the ethnic peoples, if their troops keep advancing.
:45:00. > :45:07.Until the conflict is solved, the situation here in the camps will
:45:07. > :45:11.get worse. Those who have been here since June,
:45:11. > :45:14.say they are praying to go home, but more immediate low, they are
:45:14. > :45:22.praying the food doesn't run -- immediately, they are playing the
:45:22. > :45:29.food doesn't run out before they. In this camp of 5,000, the ration
:45:29. > :45:33.is down to one cup of rice per day per child, and two cups for an
:45:33. > :45:38.adult. Aid agencies who want to get in to help say they are struggling
:45:38. > :45:43.to get here. The British Government has pledged
:45:43. > :45:46.�2 million in aid to help these people supplement their diet, and
:45:46. > :45:51.when the British Foreign Secretary, William Hague, was in Burma Earl
:45:51. > :45:54.yes this year, he said -- Burma earlier this year, he said
:45:54. > :46:01.sanctions shouldn't be lifted until the Burmese Government allowed the
:46:01. > :46:05.aid to get here. There is huge pressure from business interests in
:46:05. > :46:08.the UK and America for sanctions to be lifted. People here hungry and
:46:08. > :46:11.home lesson the edges of the country, fear they will be
:46:11. > :46:17.forgotten amid calls for trade to be resumed, with a country that is
:46:17. > :46:20.so rich in natural resources. As the Kachin army took us on
:46:20. > :46:25.patrol, along a frontline that stretches hundreds of miles through
:46:25. > :46:28.the jungle, the commander told me that they are grateful to the
:46:28. > :46:34.British, whose army they fought alongside during the Second World
:46:34. > :46:39.War, for giving them the model on which to build.
:46:39. > :46:45.But, over the intimacy of a campfire at night, there is
:46:45. > :46:49.bitterness about their former military ally. TRANSLATION:
:46:49. > :46:54.British shouldn't forget us in our time of need. When they needed us
:46:54. > :47:04.we fought for them against the Japanese. We are now suffering
:47:04. > :47:07.
:47:07. > :47:14.horribly. Surely this is the time For now, they sing of defending
:47:14. > :47:17.their land from exploitation by Burma.
:47:17. > :47:26.Knowing full well that they are running short of weapons, man power,
:47:26. > :47:36.and support. That's all from Newsnight tonight,
:47:36. > :47:40.
:47:40. > :47:44.more tomorrow with that mayoral What a day it's been, the day that
:47:44. > :47:48.winter bit back. The worst of the wintry conditions now heading
:47:48. > :47:51.southwards across northern England, and North Wales. Snow over the high
:47:51. > :47:54.ground causing problems. Gale force winds blowing it around. No great
:47:54. > :47:59.improvements across the heart of England and Wales through the day.
:47:59. > :48:03.Further rain and snow, most of the snow in the high ground, a bleak,
:48:03. > :48:06.raw-feeling day with a strong north-eastly wind. Southern most
:48:06. > :48:10.counties, relatively mild, but slow-moving sharp showers, don't
:48:10. > :48:14.get caught out. It is not going plain sailing by any means here. We
:48:14. > :48:18.run back into that cold and wintry weather across the heart of Wales.
:48:18. > :48:20.Most of the snow up over the highest ground where it could cause
:48:20. > :48:23.problems locally. For Northern Ireland brighter prospects through
:48:23. > :48:27.the afternoon, there will be sunshine. Don't expect a heatwave,
:48:27. > :48:30.it will be a chilly-feeling day. In the sunshine out of the breeze it
:48:30. > :48:35.shouldn't feel too bad. For Scotland a much better day. Apart
:48:35. > :48:45.from the odd shower from the north. It should be dry and bright with a
:48:45. > :48:52.
:48:52. > :48:54.steady thank you. Looking ahead to After a frosty start this is the
:48:54. > :48:58.picture, rain clearing away from the south. More rain heading into