:00:13. > :00:17.Politics, activism, and apathy, there is ten English cities
:00:17. > :00:21.preparing to ask if they want to be led by a mayor. We dedicate this
:00:22. > :00:27.programme to who should represent us and how. Would directly elected
:00:27. > :00:30.mayors bring greater democracy or more showbiz politics? Our studio
:00:30. > :00:40.audience comprises representatives of numerous political parties and
:00:40. > :00:40.
:00:40. > :00:43.of none. If you vote, we will clean up Bristol. Bristol is one of the
:00:44. > :00:48.places deciding to have a mayor, more power to the people, or more
:00:48. > :00:51.power in one person's hands. For all the noise in the debate in
:00:51. > :00:55.the Bristol lunchtime sunshine, draw back a bit and you can see
:00:55. > :01:00.only about 50 people here, some of whom have been clearly distracted
:01:00. > :01:05.in their lunch hour by the noise. George Galloway stormed Bradford,
:01:05. > :01:10.while Westminster slept, are our politics out of step with our needs.
:01:10. > :01:20.And, if the ballot box doesn't work, does the future lie in protest,
:01:20. > :01:23.petition, and the odd projectile. Good evening. Take a second to
:01:23. > :01:27.write down the name of your council leader.
:01:27. > :01:31.Done, excellent, don't worry if you can't, you will be in the company
:01:31. > :01:34.of about 80% of the population. Next month ten English cities will
:01:34. > :01:38.be asked if they want an alternative, in the form of a
:01:38. > :01:41.directly elected mayor. Greater democracy or a cult of personality
:01:41. > :01:44.politics. In a moment we will be looking at how we are represented,
:01:44. > :01:49.with the Government minister responsible for our cities, and an
:01:49. > :01:53.audience of many minor parties, and of no political affiliation at all.
:01:53. > :02:01.Have we outgrown our political system? A problem of analog
:02:01. > :02:07.politics for a digital age. Bristol certainly has an impressive
:02:07. > :02:11.past, but, what sort of future is in store for this city?
:02:11. > :02:16.Well, like ten cities across England, in the immediate future,
:02:16. > :02:21.there is a referendum on whether to have an elected mayor.
:02:21. > :02:28.Bristol has always been an outward looking city. It was from here that
:02:28. > :02:33.in the 15th century John Cabot sailed to discover New Foundland,
:02:33. > :02:38.from then on the city earned its fortune trading with the rest of
:02:38. > :02:44.the world. History tell us us doing some disreputable things, but
:02:44. > :02:49.nevertheless, supporters of a directly-elected mayor say having
:02:49. > :02:56.this will give it the entreprenurial spirit that made it
:02:56. > :03:00.so wealthy in the past. This is not the time for intellectual debate,
:03:00. > :03:06.it is old fashioned politics. Perhaps Bristol is saving itself
:03:06. > :03:11.for a big finish in the referendum campaign. By all accounts so far,
:03:11. > :03:14.the debate hasn't gripped the city in a frenzy of mayor fever. This is
:03:14. > :03:19.one of the most exciting ideas you could imagine. In an effort to
:03:19. > :03:23.introduce a bit of heat and light, the group at Bristol Speakers'
:03:23. > :03:29.Corner is hold ago debate. A mayor will be able to attract more fans
:03:29. > :03:34.to the city. Heading up the yes campaign in favour of a mayor is
:03:34. > :03:37.Jaya Chakrabarti. In a nutshell, why should Bristol have a mayor?
:03:37. > :03:41.Bristol has had seven changes of leadership in the last ten years,
:03:41. > :03:44.which has made it incredibly difficult for anyone making a
:03:44. > :03:48.change in the city to deal with the council. The council controls the
:03:48. > :03:53.city. Our leaders have tried to instigate change, we have tried to
:03:53. > :03:58.have an arena, a stadium, improve education and the transport system,
:03:58. > :04:01.we have some how failed to punch at our weight, let alone above.
:04:01. > :04:05.new mayor's powers have to come from somewhere, mostly they will be
:04:05. > :04:10.shipped out of the building behind me, that is the City Council. Not
:04:10. > :04:13.surprisingly, the City Council is kind of where most of the
:04:13. > :04:17.opposition to the new position is concentrated.
:04:17. > :04:22.The council has got into trouble producing a leaflet telling voters
:04:22. > :04:26.about the referendum, that the Government says isn't impartial.
:04:26. > :04:31.Nevertheless, councillors on the no side say having a mayor could lead
:04:31. > :04:35.to the politics of personality and gimmicks. Isn't there someone from
:04:35. > :04:40.Bristol who could step up and be a leader of this place, who wouldn't
:04:40. > :04:44.perhaps be attracted to climbing the greasey political pole, which
:04:44. > :04:52.is what you have to do to become leader of the council. In the past
:04:52. > :04:55.we have people like Cary Grant, now it is bald drik. The students would
:04:55. > :04:59.get on board there and they could possibly win, that is a danger.
:04:59. > :05:04.People might choose the wrong person? Yes, purely on the subject
:05:04. > :05:07.of personality. That's not a trust the people message, that is not an
:05:07. > :05:10.optimistic message about the capacity of the public to pick
:05:11. > :05:16.somebody? Unfortunately here in Britain we have one of the worst
:05:16. > :05:18.levels of participation in politics. It is true, some parts of the
:05:18. > :05:22.country have picked some interesting characters to be mayor.
:05:22. > :05:26.The man in the monkey suit in Hartlepool, for example. There is
:05:26. > :05:29.no sign of Bristol being about to follow suit. There is no sign,
:05:29. > :05:34.really, of Bristol about to do anything.
:05:34. > :05:37.For all the noise of the debate here in Bristol, draw back a bit
:05:37. > :05:41.and you can see actually how sparsely attended it is. You
:05:41. > :05:44.suspect that a few of the people on the periphery here have just come
:05:44. > :05:48.along to see what all the commotion is about. That is part of the
:05:48. > :05:53.problem. There is no massive appetite for these changes to how
:05:53. > :05:59.cities are run. The Government spent two months at
:05:59. > :06:04.the end of last year consulting on the question, of what can a mayor
:06:04. > :06:09.do for your city? They weren't inundate with replies, they only
:06:09. > :06:14.got 58, but once you strip away those from public bodies like
:06:14. > :06:17.councils, or interested individuals, like MPs, well, there were only 19
:06:17. > :06:21.members of the public who bothered to reply.
:06:21. > :06:25.Two big things are happening in my view, not just in terms of city
:06:25. > :06:30.governance, but in terms of Britain's politics as a whole. The
:06:30. > :06:35.first is, people are now pretty disgusted with politicians. Our u
:06:35. > :06:39.gof research shows this, 60% think politicians lie all the time. That
:06:39. > :06:44.is a terrible verdict. The second thing, increasingly people don't
:06:44. > :06:48.feel that political decisions make much difference to them. They think
:06:48. > :06:53.whoever will be elected will not affect their lives very greatly.
:06:53. > :06:57.They are open to somebody with the appeal of to say they are different,
:06:57. > :07:00.clean, not a normal politician, and because they are outside that
:07:00. > :07:03.normal party stranglehold of politics, I can do things
:07:03. > :07:08.differently and make your life better.
:07:08. > :07:13.In Bristol, there are various names being bandied about, independent of
:07:13. > :07:19.the political parties. One belongs to a prominent local architect, and
:07:19. > :07:24.restauranteur. Rumour has it you are Bristol's
:07:24. > :07:29.Michael Bloomberg! Well, I'm just me, you know. You want a mayor?
:07:29. > :07:33.very keen on us having a mayor, and an independent mayor, rather than a
:07:33. > :07:39.party political one. Some people suggest that should be you? Some
:07:39. > :07:44.people do. Any interested? I have said I might. I think it would be a
:07:44. > :07:51.fantastic project. I'm passionate about Bristol, it is a great city.
:07:51. > :07:56.I think it's the most interesting city outside London. But it doesn't
:07:56. > :07:59.punch above its weight. Thank you everybody, vote, vote, vote. Don't
:07:59. > :08:03.vote, boycott. So the debate comes to an end. It
:08:03. > :08:09.is not clear if anyone's mind has been changed. Most of the city
:08:10. > :08:13.doesn't seem to have noticed. One problem here is people are being
:08:13. > :08:17.asked to vote, without actually knowing what precise powers the
:08:17. > :08:24.mayor would have. Our studio audience represents the
:08:24. > :08:29.three main parties, as well as UKIP, the Green Party, BNP, the English
:08:29. > :08:35.Democrats, and Respect, and people with no affiliation at all. We have
:08:35. > :08:42.Greg Clark, Lord Adonis, who favours the move to elect mays, and
:08:42. > :08:45.Jon Lansman, who finds it elitist. Why are you against mayors?
:08:45. > :08:50.heard the argument, only one in seven people can name the leader of
:08:50. > :08:55.their council, or claim to, and half of them get it wrong. Bristol
:08:55. > :08:58.is the only major provincial city outside London that has GDP per
:08:58. > :09:03.head higher than the EU average. The fact we have such weak
:09:03. > :09:06.leadership in our cities, it is costing our cities and country dear.
:09:06. > :09:10.You can't have democracy unless people know who it is they are
:09:10. > :09:14.putting in charge and they can hold them to account. It is about
:09:14. > :09:18.replacing weak leaders? We heard how the public aren't very
:09:18. > :09:21.interested in constitutional reform. If we are going to promote
:09:21. > :09:24.constitutional reform, they need to be about making politicians more
:09:24. > :09:27.responsive to the public. This doesn't do that. At the moment a
:09:27. > :09:31.lot of these councils have elections every year, or almost
:09:31. > :09:36.every year, three out of four. The political groups re-elect their
:09:36. > :09:40.leaders every year. What we are going to be doing here is directly
:09:40. > :09:44.electing mayors who will be there for several years, with enormous
:09:44. > :09:48.powers, which will require two- thirds majorities to overturn, they
:09:48. > :09:51.will be dispensing lots of salaries and there are very few checks and
:09:51. > :09:54.balances. We don't know what powers they will have, what do you
:09:54. > :09:57.envisage? The powers they will have are the powers that the City
:09:57. > :10:02.Council has at the moment. And be very clear about that. There will
:10:02. > :10:06.be no difference then? Let me explain, the City Council in
:10:06. > :10:10.Bristol has exercise of over a billion pounds of spending. That is
:10:10. > :10:13.a huge A money. That is more than most Government departments,
:10:13. > :10:18.smaller Government departments have access to. That power will be
:10:18. > :10:22.vested in a mayor, it will make the Mayor of Bristol, and I dare say
:10:23. > :10:27.the Mayor of Birmingham and other cities, the most powerful voices in
:10:27. > :10:30.their region. Powerful more than many maebs of the cabinet. Is it
:10:30. > :10:34.possible they will have no more powers than council leaders?
:10:34. > :10:38.will start like that, as you have seen in Scotland and London, is
:10:38. > :10:42.once you have a strong voice, the next thing is what further powers
:10:42. > :10:45.they can have. I'm keen to build up that voice. Like what? Over
:10:45. > :10:49.transport, for example. Rather than the Department of Transport making
:10:50. > :10:54.transport decisions in London, I think they should be made locally.
:10:54. > :10:57.Let's talk to somebody who has experience of this.
:10:57. > :11:02.You were the young Mayor of Lewisham, what was that like, did
:11:02. > :11:04.you feel a connection with the people you represented? I feel it
:11:05. > :11:08.was interesting, you were put in a position where you have to be
:11:08. > :11:12.accountable to the people. The fact I was still going to college and
:11:12. > :11:16.around the young people who voted for me. It was interesting to hear
:11:16. > :11:20.their viewpoint, and make sure what I was doing was making their lives
:11:21. > :11:24.better. I think the idea of having an elected mayor, will keep people
:11:24. > :11:27.accountable in terms of those positions. It is important to make
:11:27. > :11:31.sure people stay involved in politics, not just voting, but
:11:31. > :11:35.going to local assemblies, and making sure they are holding people
:11:35. > :11:41.in power to account. That is a simple argument to understand.
:11:41. > :11:44.Chris, you were a mayoral candidate b you now oppose that, why would
:11:44. > :11:49.you oppose that? Very simply because you are putting huge powers
:11:49. > :11:55.into the hands of one individual person, which I believe is
:11:55. > :11:57.thoroughly anti-democratic, but also now, we have mayoral elections
:11:57. > :12:03.have devolved into a personality contest. People are being elected
:12:03. > :12:08.on the ground of their personality, in the north-east we have three
:12:08. > :12:11.elected mayor, two of whom whom were elected on their personality
:12:11. > :12:16.with no knowledge of local Government. I would say that
:12:16. > :12:21.neither of them have contributed as a mayor, they enjoy the position
:12:21. > :12:24.but don't use it. Interesting, if you take the position of Doncaster,
:12:24. > :12:32.where your party, the English Democrats are in power, they are
:12:32. > :12:37.having a rem referendum about whether they want a mayor any more.
:12:37. > :12:40.It has worked, the people going for having this referendum are Labour
:12:40. > :12:44.councillors who feel that they are excluded from running the council,
:12:44. > :12:50.which they feel is their God-given right for Doncaster. In effect,
:12:50. > :12:54.they are objecting to the current situation, which was voted for by
:12:54. > :12:57.the people of Doncaster. James, you are not a Labour councillor, but
:12:57. > :13:01.you may come to this from the Conservative perspective, you are
:13:01. > :13:05.resisting this kind of change, right? For lots of reasons. I think
:13:05. > :13:10.the gentleman at the back had some of the things absolutely right. It
:13:11. > :13:14.is putting too much power in one person's hands, with less
:13:14. > :13:22.transparency, less opportunity for corruption, but it is getting away
:13:22. > :13:25.from our traditional British system of representational democracy. I'm
:13:25. > :13:29.not sure if it is going to lead us to a presidential system nationally
:13:29. > :13:33.our system is tried and tested, it works well, it has checks and
:13:33. > :13:37.balances and it keeps the leaders on their toes. Under the mayoral
:13:37. > :13:42.system, they have four years, even if they make a mess of it you can't
:13:42. > :13:49.get rid of them. A quick show of hands, which of you feel that a
:13:49. > :13:53.mayor would lead to a personality politics situation? I think it is a
:13:53. > :13:59.good thing. I quite agree. majority of you think it would, and
:13:59. > :14:05.it would be a good thing. What's an election? What is an election?
:14:05. > :14:08.are going to put that, would it be such a bad thing, you were talking
:14:08. > :14:11.about a mayor who might not be directly accountable, and go on and
:14:11. > :14:16.on and on, if the people wanted that and recognised their own mayor,
:14:16. > :14:19.surely that is a good thing? In an authority, take Newham, where there
:14:19. > :14:23.isn't a single non-Labour councillor, the mayor there, is a
:14:23. > :14:28.member of my own party, can be re- elected time after time, and I
:14:28. > :14:34.suspect he will be, as long as he stands, he personally decides an
:14:34. > :14:37.awful lot of policies. He dispenses salaries to his cabinet and many
:14:37. > :14:41.other councils, which is a very good way of getting loyalty, there
:14:41. > :14:45.simply aren't the checks and balances in the system. It is not
:14:45. > :14:52.just that there is an directly elected mayor, it is how much power
:14:53. > :14:56.that has and controls them. sounds like you like the idea of a
:14:56. > :14:59.personality? Essentially what is an election, an election is who do
:14:59. > :15:06.people like more. That is about your personality. And what this is
:15:06. > :15:11.really about is the fact that people are sick of all three of the
:15:11. > :15:14.major parties. Both are pro-war, all three are pro-war, all three
:15:14. > :15:19.are pro-cuts, it is an option between cuts light and cuts
:15:19. > :15:23.immediate, people are going to die because of these cuts, privatising
:15:23. > :15:27.the NHS. I will come on to that a bit later, about disenfranchisement
:15:27. > :15:33.if you think it exists. Who here votes according to what they like
:15:33. > :15:37.in a politician rather than their policies? Esther Rantzen, you stood
:15:37. > :15:42.at an independent in Luton last year, what did it teach you?
:15:42. > :15:46.taught me how tribunal politics is, and how sad that -- tribal politics
:15:46. > :15:51.is, and how sad that is. Depending on the colour of the rosette,
:15:51. > :15:55.someone is either on your side origins you. In London, as you know,
:15:55. > :16:00.obviously, we have Ken, and those who like his personality will vote
:16:00. > :16:04.for him, but, on the other hand, if you don't, and if you think that
:16:04. > :16:09.Boris is someone with style and panache, you vote for him. That
:16:09. > :16:13.enfranchises us, that gives us an opportunity to decide what sort of
:16:14. > :16:16.character, and it is about character. If you substitute the
:16:17. > :16:24.word "personality", with the word "character", that is what you want,
:16:24. > :16:28.of your city, town and mayor. We should be voting for the
:16:28. > :16:32.policies not the colour of their hair. I'm going to bring you in
:16:32. > :16:42.here, you are standing as an independent in the mayoral contest,
:16:42. > :16:47.and you have heard the line that it is just a glad -- Gladiatoral
:16:47. > :16:51.fight? I'm the only independent mayoral candidate, I believe mayors
:16:51. > :16:57.can be great leaders, I we have to get different types of public
:16:57. > :17:01.leaders, otherwise the same disillusionment we have heard will
:17:01. > :17:05.be replicated in London. In London we have not only party politics
:17:05. > :17:09.pulling us down, but two macho personalities coming down, we don't
:17:09. > :17:14.hear about policies. Do you want to see more of the Ken and Boris show
:17:14. > :17:19.around the country? As I report as minister, the Mayor of London, and
:17:19. > :17:22.Lord Adonis I'm sure would confirm, that the voice of the London
:17:22. > :17:26.mayorality has been stronger than the voice of other cities around
:17:26. > :17:28.the country. I think that is not how it should be. I want the great
:17:28. > :17:35.cities of Britain to speak with a roar, rather than a whisper, as
:17:35. > :17:38.they do at the moment. It is a huge mistake, I'm a London Assembly
:17:38. > :17:42.member, I have been scrutinising Ken and Boris over the last 12
:17:42. > :17:46.years, it is a mistake to assume that what's going to happen outside
:17:46. > :17:51.in other cities is the same as what's happened in London. In
:17:51. > :17:55.London you have got a city region with 5.2 million voters, where you
:17:55. > :17:59.have got a strategic authority that can make genuine strategic
:17:59. > :18:02.decisions, like bidding for the Olympics, introducing the
:18:02. > :18:06.Congestion Charge, and making massive changes. All you are seeing
:18:06. > :18:09.in the other cities, that is on offer, is just bolting on a direct
:18:09. > :18:13.low elected mayor, to a bog standard council. It won't bring
:18:13. > :18:15.about the strategic change we need. We actually need regional
:18:15. > :18:17.Government rather than city Government.
:18:18. > :18:20.Let's look at the example of Nottingham, right, because that is
:18:20. > :18:25.also going to be part of a referendum on whether you want a
:18:25. > :18:31.mayor. You know you are against it. Why, would you like to see big
:18:31. > :18:34.personalities in a race, or is that what you fear? No, no, no, we don't
:18:34. > :18:39.want to see big personalities in a race, and we don't fear them. What
:18:39. > :18:44.we want to see is accountability, coming down to the local level,
:18:44. > :18:47.where people who walk the street, who talk to local people, who are
:18:47. > :18:53.elected democratically by their local communities, we want those
:18:53. > :19:00.people to maintain their role on the council. But a mayor walks the
:19:00. > :19:04.street, a mayor is more recognised. A mayor is elect, a mayor's
:19:04. > :19:08.decision can only be overturned by two-thirds of the majority of the
:19:08. > :19:13.councillors, that then means that actually you can pass a budget with
:19:13. > :19:17.only a third of the councillor, in my book that is undemocratic.
:19:17. > :19:21.Very briefly, Lord Adonis? other cities need to emulate London.
:19:21. > :19:24.Birmingham has a million voters, Birmingham does nationwide to punch
:19:24. > :19:27.much bigger than it does at the moment. There is no reason why
:19:27. > :19:32.Birmingham should be looking there, at London as the first city in the
:19:32. > :19:35.country and saying we can't possibly emulate if it in any way.
:19:35. > :19:41.It is one of ten local authorities in Greater Manchester, it is a
:19:41. > :19:46.small bit in the middle. On to the next theme, something fairly
:19:46. > :19:49.seismic happened last month, George Galloway stuck a metaphor kal and
:19:49. > :19:53.literal two fingers up to parliament, taking Bradford West by
:19:53. > :19:57.storm. Has the three-party system of
:19:57. > :19:59.politics had its day, is it time for the smaller parties to
:19:59. > :20:06.breakthrough. Nigel Farrage, if you look at the polls now, the three
:20:06. > :20:14.main party leaders are at a massive all-time low, why aren't we seeing
:20:14. > :20:18.smaller parties like UKIP? Look at what's happening in Northern
:20:18. > :20:22.Ireland and Scotland over the last 20 years, the only thing keeping
:20:22. > :20:26.the party system together in England is the "first past the
:20:26. > :20:30.post" system in the elections. have looked at that?
:20:30. > :20:34.alternative we were offered wasn't actually in any way a PR system.
:20:34. > :20:37.That's what's holding it together, there is massive change happening.
:20:37. > :20:40.I really do feel, if you look at the opinion polls, you have said it
:20:40. > :20:45.yourself, small parties are growing very, very quickly. It may be Ken
:20:45. > :20:50.and Boris, fighting it out in London, two big giants from two big
:20:50. > :20:55.parties, but I suspect, as mayoral contests develop across the country,
:20:55. > :20:59.you will see fewer Tory and Labour leaders.
:20:59. > :21:03.You are from George Galloway's party, was that just about his
:21:03. > :21:06.charisma? His personality, you don't think that Respect can
:21:06. > :21:10.emulate that across the country, do you? I think there is huge
:21:10. > :21:14.potential for Respect to emulate it across the country. What we showed
:21:14. > :21:17.in Bradford was four out of ten voters voting for one of the three
:21:18. > :21:21.main parties, that is because there was a clear line of division
:21:21. > :21:24.between what Respect stood for, against the war and the cuts, and
:21:24. > :21:29.what the three many parties stood for, which are different degrees of
:21:29. > :21:36.the same platform. Do you think with a mayoral system
:21:36. > :21:43.the BNP has more chance of gaining power? Yeah, we have got a chance.
:21:43. > :21:46.We have got a fantastic candidate, the only foreign candidate,
:21:46. > :21:51.Uraguayan born Carlos, he is a fantastic gie, we are doing very
:21:51. > :21:56.well on the doorsteps, on election night you will be very surprised at
:21:56. > :22:01.how well we are doing. I would like to ask the panel, if they are happy
:22:01. > :22:05.with all the Hustings they have, that there is only two or three
:22:05. > :22:08.parties there, there is seven mayoral candidates. And that is why
:22:08. > :22:13.you are represented here. It is not about Boris and Doris, there is
:22:13. > :22:18.seven of them, and we should all get a fair crack of the whip.
:22:18. > :22:22.Let me put the question to you, Greg Clark, if the BNP chose the
:22:22. > :22:26.mayoral stratta of politics to rise, would you welcome that? I trust the
:22:26. > :22:36.British people, I think they would see through them. The debate that
:22:36. > :22:41.
:22:41. > :22:44.is are being had across the country, I think will expose that, I can see
:22:44. > :22:48.See that happening. When Ken Livingstone won in London first, he
:22:48. > :22:52.won against a Labour candidate asen independent. Darren Johnson's
:22:52. > :22:59.ratings are ahead of the party in lon -- Boris Johnson's ratings are
:22:59. > :23:03.above the party. Let's ask a disenfranchised voter,
:23:03. > :23:07.Angela Thomas, when you listen to the argument and it is about where
:23:07. > :23:11.we put our vote, would you be more inclined to vote for the smaller
:23:11. > :23:14.parties now, do you feel there is more affiliation? Not necessarily,
:23:14. > :23:17.in my experience, what I have seen happening, would lead me to suspect
:23:17. > :23:21.that the smaller parties, when they get into power, we have seen it
:23:21. > :23:25.with the Liberal Democrats getting into Government, perfighting
:23:25. > :23:28.against -- they are fighting against a system, they can't follow
:23:28. > :23:33.through on the promises and make the changes. I inherently mistrust
:23:33. > :23:39.the way the system is set up against the small parties. I just
:23:39. > :23:43.think that the whole thing is a distraction. I suspect that the
:23:43. > :23:47.mayoral, directly-elected mayoral campaign is a way of drawing far
:23:47. > :23:51.away from the main parties. In that way it is serving a role for the
:23:51. > :23:54.Conservatives and for the Labour Party.
:23:55. > :23:58.You have to come back to the key issue of what mayors will do, the
:23:58. > :24:01.reason for electing mayors is they will lead the cities more
:24:01. > :24:04.effectively than they are led at the moment. We need to get real
:24:04. > :24:07.about this. The big problem our major cities outside London have is
:24:07. > :24:11.they are poor. They have been poorly led, they have generally
:24:11. > :24:15.speaking a good deal of improvement needed in their public services,
:24:15. > :24:19.they have far too few private sector jobs, the further north you
:24:19. > :24:24.go the bigger problem it is. We need strong democratic leaders who
:24:24. > :24:29.can bring jobs and better public services to our cities.
:24:29. > :24:32.We have this talk aboutic leaders, really we need to look at what
:24:32. > :24:36.democracy means. We are thinking of this in a flawed framework, this
:24:36. > :24:40.whole conversation is flawed, because democracy isn't about
:24:40. > :24:48.putting an X in a box every so often, every few years, democracy
:24:48. > :24:53.is a real politics, which doesn't actually exist. How many of you
:24:53. > :24:57.have not ever voted at a ballot box? I'm not 18 yet. The most
:24:57. > :25:01.important thing for everyone to understand is Iraq under occupation
:25:01. > :25:05.a higher percentage of the people voted in their elections, than any
:25:05. > :25:09.general election which has been here for a long time. This idea of
:25:09. > :25:14.democracy in this country is pretty much a joke. If we are really,
:25:14. > :25:18.really going to engage with the issues, you know many tears have
:25:18. > :25:26.been cried over George Galloway's victory, the difference is he
:25:26. > :25:34.speaks with people rather than at them. Let's go to Furqan Naeem, you
:25:34. > :25:38.operate in Bradford, add mittedly at a student level, were you
:25:38. > :25:41.surprised by the decision in Bradford? It did take me by
:25:41. > :25:44.surprise. I was on the ground in Bradford, I saw on campus how young
:25:44. > :25:48.people and students really got involved in politics for the first
:25:48. > :25:52.time. It shows that young people and students, they care about more
:25:52. > :25:55.issues that affect them, rather than party politic. At the moment
:25:55. > :25:59.party politics now needs to resonate with young people and care
:25:59. > :26:02.about issues to do with them. In terms of the mayoral elections,
:26:02. > :26:06.with them taking place, one thing will happen is the mayors that will
:26:06. > :26:09.come in place, they will have to touch base with the young people
:26:09. > :26:12.and students and listen to the grass roots and their thought. That
:26:12. > :26:15.will bring in more accountability and transparency, which young
:26:15. > :26:19.people want. People say they are feeling disillusioned with the
:26:19. > :26:22.three main parties and they want other voices heard, if you put all
:26:22. > :26:27.your powers into the hands of one person, it is impossible for other
:26:27. > :26:30.voices to be heard. We need to look at other ways of reforming local
:26:30. > :26:35.Government, if we introduce proportion national representation
:26:35. > :26:39.we get a better spread of opinion locally. If we move away from the
:26:39. > :26:44.ballot box, we look at protest, pressure groups, we look at
:26:44. > :26:48.whatever it is that activates people, he want to hear your story,
:26:48. > :26:53.Fahim Alam, it is unique, I think it is unique, you were wrongly
:26:53. > :26:58.convicted of rioting last summer? wasn't convicted, I was acquitted.
:26:58. > :27:03.You spent six weeks in jail, that experience has presumably changed
:27:03. > :27:06.how you see the establishment and the political system now? No, I
:27:06. > :27:10.felt the same as I have felt previously. I want to go back to
:27:10. > :27:14.what my friend over here said about disillusionment, the problem is
:27:14. > :27:19.that people aren't disillusioned with politicians, politicians are
:27:19. > :27:24.disillusioned with the people. And when the people came out on the
:27:24. > :27:27.streets during the riots, and during student protests, they
:27:27. > :27:32.showed that he they were fully engaged with politics, and in fact,
:27:32. > :27:38.the politicians are not engaged with them at all.
:27:38. > :27:43.So the whole idea of apathy is lazy? You can't link the riots to
:27:43. > :27:48.that. Most of the rioting we saw. Those were political acts. I think
:27:48. > :27:51.it is important that people, that mayoral candidates now in
:27:51. > :27:59.particular do need to reach out to all sections of society. This is
:27:59. > :28:04.what we are fed up of hearing. The elite, white men, speaking. You are
:28:04. > :28:07.holding the same interests, that is the way you want to see it.
:28:07. > :28:11.Speaking apparently for the people. There are some women and older
:28:11. > :28:17.people here, I'm fed up with everybody saying we have to engage
:28:17. > :28:20.young people. The people. Women are the exception. The people who vote
:28:20. > :28:25.conscientiously and consistently are older people, that is because
:28:25. > :28:31.we do not think democracy is a joke, we think democracy is very, very
:28:31. > :28:35.serious. Democracy is about voting. You think democracy is about voting.
:28:35. > :28:39.Young people would vote for you. Excuse me a second young man, not
:28:40. > :28:43.to be patronising in any way. What we need in our great cities is
:28:43. > :28:45.talent, I don't think committees necessarily throw up talent, I
:28:45. > :28:50.think it would be possible for entrepeneurs, people like that
:28:50. > :28:55.architect we heard, people from the medical profession, people with
:28:55. > :29:00.real skills could take a city by the scruff of its neck and say.
:29:00. > :29:06.Everybody has real skills. No. political process is deemed
:29:06. > :29:10.irrelevant. To people. If it is about getting talented
:29:10. > :29:15.people. They could stand as councillors now.
:29:15. > :29:19.It needs personality so people will vote for them.
:29:19. > :29:24.Let me go to James, he's the only one who is quiet. Why can people
:29:24. > :29:28.not name their council leaders, why do we hear this continual reference
:29:28. > :29:37.to weakness of leadership and lack of talent, what is the council
:29:37. > :29:41.doing wrong? Lots of reasons, I don't think it is entirely fair to
:29:41. > :29:45.blame the leadership. Secondly, we don't have enough talent, that is
:29:45. > :29:49.true. Because there is not enough power? It is a difficult job to be
:29:49. > :29:53.a councillor. It is a boring, boring job. The power has gone to
:29:53. > :29:56.Westminster, during the 1980s we took away from local Government a
:29:56. > :30:00.lot of their ability to affect the lives of people living in their
:30:00. > :30:05.towns and cities, and it was handed to Westminster. That is why people
:30:05. > :30:09.don't vote in local elections. is true, it is longer ago than the
:30:09. > :30:12.80s. It is a longer period of time. You can't suddenly push people into
:30:12. > :30:18.a job that is extremely difficult, extremely demanding with very
:30:18. > :30:22.little reward. Would you be more likely to vote
:30:22. > :30:32.for a councillor or a mayor? would be more likely to vote for a
:30:32. > :30:32.
:30:32. > :30:37.person who came and spoke to me. I have had my card on my mantle piece,
:30:37. > :30:42.and not one person has come to spoken to me. A councillor is more
:30:42. > :30:45.likely to speak to you than a directly-elected mayor. In
:30:45. > :30:50.Birmingham there are 120 councillors, one directly elected
:30:50. > :30:53.mayor, who you will not see. will not get anything done unless
:30:53. > :30:56.people know who it is that is leading them. Everyone knows who
:30:56. > :31:00.the Prime Minister is, everyone here knows who the Mayor of London
:31:00. > :31:06.is, virtually no-one knows who the leader of their local council is.
:31:06. > :31:11.More people inest mo of the cities outside the city, know who the
:31:11. > :31:16.leader of London is, the Mayor of London is than their own
:31:17. > :31:20.councillors, this is the problem we have.
:31:20. > :31:24.If elected mayors are such a good idea, we have had three elected
:31:24. > :31:31.mayors in the north-east for nine years or more, you tell me what
:31:31. > :31:36.advantage that has been. Greg Clark you have the last word.
:31:36. > :31:42.The leader in Middlesborough is more known than the leader of
:31:42. > :31:46.Newcastle. Birmingham is the second city in UK, the size of the council
:31:46. > :31:49.is the biggest in Europe, the idea that there are people of talent in
:31:49. > :31:52.Birmingham doing a fantastic job. You are seeing, before the
:31:52. > :31:56.referendum, members of the Shadow Cabinet, people wanting to quit
:31:56. > :31:58.their role of MP in order to lead the city. The current leader of
:31:58. > :32:01.Birmingham City council, our Conservative colleague, said he
:32:01. > :32:09.could do a better job as mayor than leader.
:32:09. > :32:13.We have run out of time tonight. That is pretty much it for this
:32:13. > :32:22.evening, the review show in a moment. The Icelandic capital has