:00:13. > :00:17.The Home Secretary says the man once called the spiritual head of
:00:17. > :00:21.the British mujahideen, is on his way out of the country. Is all
:00:21. > :00:25.today's very public bustling into cars, a distraction, with the
:00:25. > :00:28.European Court of Human Rights, still in the driving seat, yet
:00:28. > :00:34.again. At least the Home Office can say he's now behind bars. But why
:00:34. > :00:40.can't we just put him on a plane to Jordan?
:00:40. > :00:45.The mysterious death of a British businessman in China gets no less
:00:45. > :00:49.perplexing, will we ever learn what happened. And then...You Have the
:00:49. > :00:54.charisma of a damp rag, and the appearance of a low-grade bank
:00:54. > :00:58.clerk, the question I want to ask, is, who are you? As polls suggest,
:00:58. > :01:01.this man's party is the new third party in British politics, how much
:01:01. > :01:07.of a threat is UKIP to the Conservatives?
:01:07. > :01:14.Doesn't it make you proud to be Scottish. It's shite being Scottish.
:01:15. > :01:22.With we're the lowest of the low, we can't even find a decent culture
:01:22. > :01:25.to be colonised by. Irvine Welsh, ask can the United
:01:25. > :01:29.Kingdom be called off. This programme contains strong
:01:29. > :01:33.language. He has made a monkey out of British
:01:33. > :01:36.Governments for over a decade, finally Abu Qatada, the man who
:01:36. > :01:40.thinks it is a holy duty to murder women and children, is to be
:01:40. > :01:43.shipped out of the country. At least, he might be, if the European
:01:43. > :01:47.Court of Human Rights gives its blessing. Ground hog day is here
:01:47. > :01:50.again. He's in custody tonight, and the Home Secretary claims she's now
:01:50. > :01:54.got assurances which will ensure his removal from Britain. But, it
:01:54. > :02:04.will still take time, and it's still likely to hang on the
:02:04. > :02:05.
:02:05. > :02:09.European Court, which Britain is unwilling to defy.
:02:09. > :02:13.Tonight Abu Qatada is behind bars once more. Described by a judge as
:02:13. > :02:15.Osama Bin Laden's righthand man in Europe it's regarded by
:02:15. > :02:19.Intelligence Services as a significant threat to national
:02:19. > :02:24.security. Over more than a decade, successive
:02:24. > :02:28.Governments have tried to have him deported, but without success.
:02:28. > :02:32.Today, as he was arrested at his house in west London, the Home
:02:32. > :02:35.Secretary was preparing to tell the Commons that she was confident that
:02:35. > :02:39.the next time he was released from prison, it would be to board a
:02:39. > :02:41.plane from Jordan. We have obtained from the Jordanian Government the
:02:41. > :02:44.material we need to comply with the ruling of the European Court. I
:02:44. > :02:49.believe the assurances and the information we have gathered will
:02:49. > :02:55.mean that we can soon put Qatada on the plane, and get him out of our
:02:55. > :02:57.country for good. Abu Qatada's departure has been prevented by the
:02:58. > :03:01.European Court of Human Rights. Its initial concern was that he would
:03:01. > :03:05.be tortured if he faced trial in Jordan. When the Jordanian
:03:05. > :03:08.authorities guaranteed he wouldn't, in January, the court found a new
:03:08. > :03:11.concern, not that he would be tortured, but that evidence
:03:11. > :03:16.obtained by torture would be used in his trial.
:03:16. > :03:20.The court blocked deportation because it said that the court
:03:20. > :03:23.found that torture was widespread in Jordan, as was the use of
:03:23. > :03:26.torture evidence by the Jordanian courts. It marked the absence of
:03:26. > :03:31.any assurance by Jordan that torture evidence would not be used.
:03:31. > :03:35.Thus, it said, deportation to Jordan would give rise to a
:03:35. > :03:39.flagrant denial of justice. The Home Secretary, then, travelled
:03:39. > :03:44.to Jordan to try to secure the assurances that she hoped would
:03:44. > :03:48.satisfy the European Court. Jordan has changed its constitution
:03:48. > :03:51.to ban torture evidence, and given detailed assurances that the Home
:03:51. > :03:56.Secretary says guarantee a fair trial.
:03:56. > :04:00.The Home Secretary, though, has been repeatedly asked why not
:04:00. > :04:03.simply ignore the European Court and deport Abu Qatada any way.
:04:03. > :04:07.reality, we simply could not do this. As ministers we would not
:04:07. > :04:11.just be breaking the law ourselves, but we would be asking Government
:04:11. > :04:15.lawyers, officials, the police, law enforcement officers, and airline
:04:15. > :04:19.companies, to break the law too. This approach has brought some
:04:19. > :04:23.plaudits from unusual quarters. It is not often that you will hear
:04:23. > :04:27.me, the director of Liberty, say this about a Home Secretary, any
:04:27. > :04:30.Home Secretary, but I got have give Miss May some credit today. Because
:04:30. > :04:34.I have waited quite a long time in my career for a Home Secretary to
:04:34. > :04:39.stand up in the House of Commons, on a difficult, unpopular
:04:39. > :04:42.immigration case, and say, the Government must obey the law.
:04:43. > :04:47.Of course she was unhappy with the decision of the court of human
:04:47. > :04:52.rights, that Mr Qatada couldn't be sent to be tried on the bay sifs
:04:52. > :04:56.torture evidence, of course she's - - basis of torture evidence, of
:04:56. > :05:02.course she's frustrated by the time it has taken, but she has said we
:05:02. > :05:07.have to follow the rule of law and process. Whilst the former Home
:05:07. > :05:11.Secretary, who began attempts to deport Abu Qatada, congratulated
:05:11. > :05:14.Mrs May, the woman who wants to be Home Secretary, wasn't nearly so
:05:14. > :05:18.impressed. The Home Office should have acted faster after the
:05:18. > :05:28.European Court judgment in January, and had we not had that early drift
:05:28. > :05:32.and delay, Abu Qatada might not have been released in the first
:05:32. > :05:37.place. And Theresa May needs to watch her own side carefully, there
:05:37. > :05:41.appears to be limited patience on the Conservative benches. It is
:05:41. > :05:44.hard to think of another case which so clearly sums up what is wrong
:05:44. > :05:48.with the logic of the European Court of Human Rights. British
:05:48. > :05:51.courts should have the final say of who stays in our country, not a
:05:51. > :05:55.foreign court in Strasbourg. What we need is that British Bill of
:05:55. > :05:59.Rights, as others have mentioned, declared senior to Strasbourg, and
:05:59. > :06:03.a Supreme Court over the road, that lives up to its name.
:06:03. > :06:07.Government has a brief window of opportunity. At the moment we hold
:06:07. > :06:10.the rotating presidency of the Council of Europe, and, tomorrow,
:06:10. > :06:14.the Government begins its conference in Brighton, trying to
:06:14. > :06:19.get reform. But to do so is a big ask, it needs to get the agreement
:06:19. > :06:22.of all 47 countries in the Council of Europe, and that, as things
:06:22. > :06:26.stand today looks a distant prospect in terms of the
:06:26. > :06:30.fundamental reform the Government is looking for.
:06:30. > :06:34.Conservative MPs will certainly be watching negotiations closely.
:06:34. > :06:38.I certainly think that the credibility of human rights, and
:06:38. > :06:42.the UK's position, regarding the convention, are dependant upon us
:06:42. > :06:46.getting a decent result, which sees us fully signed up to the
:06:46. > :06:50.convention, but reform of the Strasbourg court, which has led to
:06:50. > :06:54.too much judicial legislation, and frankly too many novel rights,
:06:54. > :06:58.which conflict with our tradition of law and liberty. If Abu Qatada
:06:59. > :07:03.is deported, it will be seen by the Government as a big win. However,
:07:03. > :07:08.there are at least 15 similar cases still pending, the Home Secretary
:07:08. > :07:11.desperately needs the whole system reformed, if she's not to spend all
:07:11. > :07:15.her time shuttling around the hotter parts of the globe, begging
:07:15. > :07:23.assurances from foreign Governments. Let's explore this a little further,
:07:23. > :07:28.with the Conservative MP, Nick Bowles and Diana Johnson, the
:07:28. > :07:32.shadow minister. When is he off then? I don't think any of us know,
:07:32. > :07:37.because there is a court process. Today is a step forward. It might
:07:37. > :07:42.be months and months, maybe not even this year? It could be months.
:07:42. > :07:45.The important thing is the law on which they can mount an I peel is
:07:45. > :07:47.narro, the European Court only questioned -- appeal is narrow, the
:07:47. > :07:51.European Court only questioned the use of torture evidence in the
:07:51. > :07:54.trial. They may not be granted appeals at the various stages.
:07:54. > :07:58.you want to congratulate the Home Secretary on doing something you
:07:58. > :08:01.failed to do during nine years in office? I'm certainly very pleased
:08:01. > :08:04.he's in custody this evening. I think the fact that he was given
:08:04. > :08:07.bail was because actually the Government didn't act quickly
:08:07. > :08:12.enough once the European Court. Hang on a minute, you had nine
:08:12. > :08:16.years in Government, during which time he made an absolute monkey of
:08:16. > :08:20.you? There were various appeals going through that period, and now,
:08:20. > :08:24.on reflection. He was also granted bail at one point during the Labour
:08:24. > :08:27.Government. It is a problem that is affected us all. We need the
:08:27. > :08:30.domestic courts and the European Courts, the Government are
:08:30. > :08:33.considering the reforms they want brought forward, we are keen to be
:08:33. > :08:40.part of that discussion. You would like to congratulate the Home
:08:40. > :08:44.Secretary on what she has done? very pleased he's in custody and
:08:44. > :08:49.deportation is back on the agenda. Because you failed? I think that is
:08:49. > :08:56.what the general public want to see happen. Let's get on with it.
:08:56. > :09:00.must be so pleased to have the Head of liberty cheering you on --
:09:00. > :09:04.Liberty cheering you on? It is nice, she has been the scourge of many
:09:04. > :09:08.Labour home secretaries. And some Conservatives one? It is good to
:09:08. > :09:11.see her congregate late us. It is a good point to make that the Home
:09:11. > :09:15.Secretary and the Government can't ask a whole lot of people to break
:09:15. > :09:18.the law, while we are part of the European convention. It is pretty
:09:18. > :09:21.gutless. I thought he were elected to represent the interests of this
:09:21. > :09:24.country, clearly you have decided not in the interests of the country
:09:24. > :09:27.this man is wandering around, or even in a prison here, you want him
:09:27. > :09:32.out of the country. Why don't you just put him on a plane? What would
:09:32. > :09:35.be gutless, and also witless, would be, firstly, to get ourselves into
:09:35. > :09:38.a position where we are forced to take him back, and forced to pay
:09:38. > :09:41.him compensation, because we have not been through a process that
:09:41. > :09:45.would stand up in court. We are doing both of the right things. We
:09:45. > :09:47.are securing the guarantees from Jordan, that no previous Government
:09:48. > :09:51.ever got, about how they will conduct their legal process, and we
:09:51. > :09:54.are securing changes, we hope, through the Council of Europe, to
:09:54. > :09:58.the way that the European Court operates in the future. That is the
:09:58. > :10:02.right way to deal with it, to stop them doing it again in future,
:10:02. > :10:05.change their method of behaviour, and this won't happen again. We are
:10:05. > :10:10.at the start of this process, this could take many months, if not
:10:10. > :10:14.years to go through the process. are back at more or less square
:10:14. > :10:17.one? I'm worried we are, I'm worried, with the Home Secretary
:10:18. > :10:21.deciding not to go to appeal with the Grand Chamber of the European
:10:21. > :10:25.Court of Human Rights, but we could end up back in there in years to
:10:25. > :10:30.come if the appeals process follows all the way through. The Labour
:10:30. > :10:34.Government spent nine years not deporting Abu Qatada, I'm rather
:10:34. > :10:37.hopeful that we will have reported him before there is a Labour Home
:10:37. > :10:41.Secretary in office again. You are just back from Jordan? I went to
:10:41. > :10:45.Jordan. Are you satisfied with the assurances given there that the
:10:45. > :10:49.Jordanians will not introduce torture take -- evidence taken
:10:49. > :10:52.under torture? Of course they have amended their constitution now.
:10:53. > :10:55.are satisfied are you? There are probably steps to be taken. Do you
:10:56. > :10:59.know, are you satisfied? I think overall the Jordanian authorities
:10:59. > :11:04.have given the guarantees we all want to see in this case. You are
:11:04. > :11:07.satisfied with their assurances? think they are in good faith, yes,
:11:07. > :11:10.I'm satisfied with what they have said to the Home Secretary, now we
:11:10. > :11:15.have to see whether the courts take the same view. And if the courts
:11:15. > :11:19.don't take the same view, you think the court was wrong, presume below?
:11:19. > :11:23.Obviously Mr Qatada will have his lawyers advising him. I'm asking
:11:23. > :11:26.you your view? Already his lawyers have said they will be appealing
:11:26. > :11:30.the deportation and want to go through the various stages. I feel
:11:30. > :11:33.having gone to Jordan, having spoken to ministers there, that
:11:33. > :11:36.they are act anything good faith, and hopefully the assurances will
:11:36. > :11:40.stand up. What would you have done if you were in Government for the
:11:40. > :11:43.last two years? Hopefully we would have acted quicker, as soon as the
:11:43. > :11:48.decision was made by the European Court, we would have acted, so Mr
:11:48. > :11:58.Qatada didn't end up getting bail. That was of grave concern that he
:11:58. > :11:59.
:11:59. > :12:03.was out there in the community. I'm pleased he as back on custody.
:12:03. > :12:07.was under more stringent conditions than the Labour Government put him
:12:07. > :12:09.under. That was only introduced because the court was not satisfied
:12:09. > :12:14.that the Government was acting quickly enough in deportation.
:12:14. > :12:21.Jeeves out on bail during the time of the Labour -- He was out on bail
:12:21. > :12:25.during the time of the Labour Government. The orders now you have
:12:25. > :12:30.available are much weaker than control orders. What is frustrate
:12:30. > :12:33.beg it, there are many difficult problems -- frustrating about it,
:12:33. > :12:37.is there are many difficult issues, we are wrestling with it, and the
:12:37. > :12:42.Labour Government did too, it would be nice to say, well done for
:12:42. > :12:46.progress, and let's see what happens? We have said that we want
:12:46. > :12:50.to identify concerns outstanding. The frustration for the ordinary
:12:50. > :12:53.citizen is we listen time after time to members of your party and
:12:53. > :12:56.your leader telling us it was outrageous that Governments of this
:12:56. > :13:00.country were not allowed to decide who should be free to be in this
:13:00. > :13:03.country, and when it comes to it, when the Civil Service and the
:13:03. > :13:09.Civil Service lawyers say, Home Secretary, you might be in defiance
:13:09. > :13:12.of the European Court, you all bend the knee? That is not true, Keneth
:13:12. > :13:17.Clarke the Justice Secretary, tomorrow, is going to Brighton,
:13:17. > :13:21.where all the members, let me finish. 47 states to agree with
:13:21. > :13:25.him? That is how you change things, you don't change things by wave ago
:13:25. > :13:28.wand, I know it works in television, but in Government you have to
:13:28. > :13:31.negotiate with your treaty parties. David Cameron said precisely that?
:13:31. > :13:35.He said we will have to change the way the European Court operates F
:13:35. > :13:38.it doesn't change, if we don't get that agreement, then we have other
:13:38. > :13:41.possiblities we could look at. They are not possiblities anyone would
:13:41. > :13:47.welcome, to withdraw from the Convention on Human rights, we are
:13:47. > :13:52.quite right to try to change the way the court operates, by getting
:13:53. > :13:58.the agreement of member states, all in a conference centre in Brighton
:13:58. > :14:01.for Keneth Clarke for a negotiation. We have been in it for 30 years?
:14:01. > :14:05.They will be there for two days, let's hope they sort it out.
:14:05. > :14:09.think they will sort it out? Lots of people are frustrated by the
:14:09. > :14:13.same things, we are all maddened by it, we need to persuade them all to
:14:13. > :14:16.come to our way of thinking. Let's see if you can do it in a couple of
:14:16. > :14:20.days? Let's see, we are going about it in right way.
:14:20. > :14:23.We want a full investigation, and we want it free of political
:14:23. > :14:27.interference, of the burden of the demand from the Prime Minister to
:14:27. > :14:31.the man in charge of China's propaganda today. It is over five
:14:31. > :14:35.months since the mysterious death of a British businessman in the chi
:14:35. > :14:44.of Chongqing, the delay and private protestations from the Foreign
:14:44. > :14:49.Office, are small parts of what is becoming a tangled tale.
:14:49. > :14:52.The plot is so elaborate it is all but impet traibl, but the death of
:14:52. > :14:56.the British business man is real enough, as is the sudden end of the
:14:56. > :15:00.career of the Chinese politician. And the murder charge now facing
:15:00. > :15:04.the Chinese politician's wife. She's accused of having the
:15:04. > :15:09.Englishman murdered. All the rest, method, motive, indeed whether
:15:09. > :15:13.there really was a murder, remains a matter of conjecture.
:15:13. > :15:18.Neil Heywood was found dead in November, supposedly from drink, he
:15:18. > :15:21.was cremated, months later, Chinese officials suggested he was murdered,
:15:21. > :15:24.for threatening to expose the financial dealings of a
:15:24. > :15:29.politician's wife. The upshot, she as charged with murder, and her
:15:29. > :15:39.husband, one of China's most controversial leaders, xielxielxiel,
:15:39. > :15:41.
:15:41. > :15:46.is ousted, and impli -- Zhang Xiaojun, is ousted and implicated.
:15:46. > :15:49.Either is possible t would appear that Mr Heywood's death was some
:15:49. > :15:54.what suspicious, the two things might not have been originally
:15:54. > :16:02.related to begin with, and they become related as a result of
:16:02. > :16:06.political need by the top leadership to remove Bo Xilai from
:16:06. > :16:11.power. David Cameron met Alexa Chung, who
:16:11. > :16:19.assured him the case was -- Abdullah Ahmed Ali assured him the
:16:19. > :16:23.We have demanded an investigation, and the Chinese authorities have
:16:23. > :16:30.agreed to discuss that, there is a further discussion this afternoon
:16:30. > :16:35.between my rightenable friend and the visiting member from the bureau,
:16:35. > :16:45.Mr Chung, and I will follow up on this extremely carefully and
:16:45. > :17:14.
:17:14. > :17:18.vigorously. In his statement today, Could the Foreign Secretary have
:17:18. > :17:20.done more? He knew back in February that something badly wrong had
:17:20. > :17:26.happened, he called an investigation, he should have
:17:26. > :17:29.announced that there and then. But you have got this philosophical,
:17:29. > :17:34.ideolgical approach, that says don't raise difficult questions
:17:34. > :17:38.with difficult regimes. All that matters is trade and business. That
:17:38. > :17:43.is important, vital for Britain, but we can't give up our broader
:17:43. > :17:47.responsibility, whether it is human rights, or in this case, something
:17:47. > :17:51.very bad that has happened to a British citizen. In Britain, the
:17:51. > :17:55.focus is on the mysterious death of a British subject, but in China
:17:55. > :18:01.it's all about the demise of a political maverick. Bo Xilai was
:18:01. > :18:06.one of the Princelings, promoting rapid growth, while also declaring
:18:06. > :18:10.faith in social equality, he was the coming man. He is somebody
:18:10. > :18:18.willing to use any method possible, he's a man of extraordinary
:18:19. > :18:23.charisma. He wanted to use that charisma to generate public support
:18:23. > :18:27.to further his career. Once he gets to the very, very top, as a member
:18:27. > :18:31.of the standing committee of the politic bureau, what he would do we
:18:31. > :18:39.don't know, now we will never find out. In China, and among comien
:18:39. > :18:45.niece exiles abroad, there is bound -- Chinese exiles abroad there is
:18:45. > :18:49.speculation. Bo's son is at Harvard and is attracting traffic. There is
:18:49. > :18:53.stories about his luxuries and lavish, and luxurious party
:18:53. > :18:57.lifestyle. So there is interest in China, in what is going on? People
:18:58. > :19:02.are very interested, especially that there is so many rumour about
:19:02. > :19:08.it. This is alleging that another senior official is involved in this
:19:08. > :19:15.whole thing, and he's going to be the next person to be investigated.
:19:15. > :19:22.He's under suspicion, this is a big deal, because he is one of the most
:19:22. > :19:26.senior politicians in the poll lit bureau. The main line of inquiry is
:19:26. > :19:32.that Neil Heywood fell out with Bo's wife, a friend and business
:19:32. > :19:38.partner, over money. There a lot of speculation that he was involved in
:19:38. > :19:43.helping the family to deal with over's assets. Is that a common
:19:43. > :19:47.occurrance with anglo-Chinese relations? It is common for a
:19:47. > :19:51.significant number of senior Chinese Government officials to
:19:51. > :19:57.have very expensive, large offices, assets, that are not commensurate
:19:57. > :20:05.with their official income. They certainly require help to
:20:05. > :20:09.manage those overseas investments and properties.
:20:09. > :20:14.Whether it was a row over money laundering, and whether Neil
:20:14. > :20:21.Heywood was really murdered, is unknown. Bo's former police chief
:20:21. > :20:31.appears to have the answers, he's incommune kaid dough in custody.
:20:31. > :20:37.
:20:37. > :20:41.Two men maybe able to share light on this are my guests. Cameron has
:20:41. > :20:47.asked for a full and unpolitical inquiry, will that happen? I don't
:20:47. > :20:51.think it is, there is no body, the body was cremated within days of Mr
:20:51. > :20:55.Heywood dying. The decision has been made at the highest level in
:20:55. > :21:01.Beijing that Bo Xilai will be demoted, and therefore, his wife
:21:01. > :21:05.has been arrested, and it is a massive political issue in China.
:21:05. > :21:12.So, the decision has already been made.
:21:12. > :21:16.The Chinese officially announced a reinvestigation into the case, but
:21:17. > :21:20.it seems they have already pretty much drawn the conclusion. There is,
:21:20. > :21:24.in the meantime, tremendous speculation, we don't know if it
:21:24. > :21:27.was a death from natural causes, or if it was a murder, as some people
:21:27. > :21:34.allege, we just don't know. Are we ever likely to know, do you think?
:21:35. > :21:41.It is very difficult, but the fact that they made the announcement in
:21:41. > :21:49.conjunction with the police chief, who tried to seek asylum from the
:21:49. > :21:56.United States, who, as was said, was so close to Bo Xilai. That
:21:56. > :22:06.could be interpreted as a move, a political move, but many people in
:22:06. > :22:11.China do believe that something suspicious happened, in this case,
:22:11. > :22:16.I think, even though Bo Xilai HIVself wasn't, and hasn't been
:22:16. > :22:21.accused of anything, except as a member of the family.
:22:21. > :22:24.Interesting as we saw in that piece of tape there. The way in which the
:22:24. > :22:28.Chinese websites are dealing with all of this. Presumably there is
:22:28. > :22:33.lots of people tweeting to one another about it too. This is a
:22:33. > :22:43.very, very interesting predicament for the Chinese Government isn't
:22:43. > :22:43.
:22:43. > :22:48.it? Absolute game changer, I would say. On the day that Wang Lijun,
:22:48. > :22:53.Bo's righthandman, drove 300 miles to the British consulate, the web
:22:53. > :22:57.erupted on the microblogs, there are many people on there, Twitter
:22:57. > :23:00.is blocked, but they have their own variance of Twitter. And everyone
:23:00. > :23:04.is talking to everyone else. In the past there was one voice, and
:23:04. > :23:08.everyone listened to it, it was the voice of the Communist Party, and
:23:08. > :23:14.that is changing, the whole dynamic of this. A lot of this information
:23:14. > :23:21.is not untainted, a lot of it is put out there, in a proper gand da
:23:21. > :23:24.offensive, by the -- propaganda offensive, this is a very God way
:23:24. > :23:28.of dealing with political problems -- good way of dealing with
:23:28. > :23:36.political problems and opponents? It is difficult to say which bit is
:23:36. > :23:42.propaganda, and which bit is rumour or the truth. I think we will have
:23:42. > :23:46.to wait until a proper procedure, proper investigation has been
:23:46. > :23:51.carried out, before we draw our own conclusions. We need to look at the
:23:51. > :23:56.evidence. I thought we agreed a proper investigation was extremely
:23:56. > :24:06.unlikely? We will have to go through the process, or the motion,
:24:06. > :24:12.they will only have to wait for any announcement of any new findings.
:24:12. > :24:17.There is a saying in Chinese, there is no war without a crack, that the
:24:17. > :24:21.wind can -- no wall without a crack that the wind can flow through.
:24:21. > :24:25.it a new way of dealing with political opponents? In many ways
:24:25. > :24:30.it is a time honoured way of dealing with political opponents,
:24:30. > :24:33.go after their relatives, use their second in commands in all sorts of
:24:33. > :24:38.ways. The difference is the environment in which it is played
:24:38. > :24:42.out. In the innuendo, the putting out there of stories of one kind of
:24:42. > :24:46.another, spreading not through the official media, this is very
:24:46. > :24:50.interesting? It is interesting, it could come back and bite them. That
:24:50. > :24:59.is why it is so interesting. They are feeding, the Government feeds
:24:59. > :25:07.stuff into the semi-free media, the semi-free microblogs, of course it
:25:07. > :25:11.is sensored, there are thousands of censor, but there are millions on
:25:11. > :25:15.the micro blogs. At the same time there is allegations of corruption,
:25:15. > :25:18.millions of dollars being spirited abroad, coming out, and Chinese
:25:19. > :25:28.people are having to have the lid lifted on the politics.
:25:29. > :25:30.
:25:30. > :25:36.Where do you think it goes next? think when the announcements are
:25:36. > :25:44.made, or anything, people can predict, it will be a justification
:25:44. > :25:50.for the central party commity to -- central party committee to trip Bo
:25:50. > :25:56.Xilai of power. It is an evidence, anecdote or foot note for that.
:25:56. > :26:02.Those who are going to take over the baton in October, or even later,
:26:02. > :26:05.some people are saying probably the progress will have to be post pond,
:26:05. > :26:10.we will see more -- postponed, we will see more things coming out.
:26:10. > :26:16.Thank you very much. We will have more on China tomorrow night when
:26:16. > :26:20.sue Lloyd Roberts will be speaking to the Dalai Lama about the self-
:26:20. > :26:27.immollations in Tibet about the protests of Chinese rule.
:26:27. > :26:32.These leaders are very foolish, narrow-minded authoritarian people,
:26:32. > :26:37.only their mouth, no ears. Never ready to listen to others' views.
:26:37. > :26:41.There is a spring in the step of the leaders of the UK Independence
:26:41. > :26:44.Party, they still have no Members of Parliament, but the latest
:26:44. > :26:47.opinion poll today suggest they have replaced the Liberal Democrats
:26:47. > :26:51.as the third party in British politics. You can tell they are
:26:51. > :26:56.doing well, because Conservative ministers are using expressions
:26:56. > :27:01.like "swivel-eyed" about them, there are dark unsubstantiated
:27:01. > :27:06.rumours about a couple of Tory MPs thinking of defecting to them.
:27:06. > :27:11.Could the people once described as "fruitcakes" by David Cameron,
:27:11. > :27:16.cause serious damage to his party. When the North Sea has a wild day,
:27:16. > :27:21.this town is prone to flooding, it was at its worst when once a
:27:21. > :27:27.European wind storm sent a vicious squall to Thurrock. 50 years on
:27:28. > :27:35.political wind storms come fairly frequently from the continent, the
:27:35. > :27:40.sitting Tory MP won it by 93 votes, but 3,000 votes went to UKIP. Today
:27:40. > :27:44.U kil kip polled third in the opinion polls -- UKIP polled third
:27:44. > :27:48.in the opinion polls, causing concern for the Liberal Democrats
:27:48. > :27:52.but also for the Conservatives. The problem for some is so deep that
:27:52. > :27:56.they could use a majority in the next election. One worrying fact
:27:56. > :28:00.for the Conservatives is that in the 2010 election, when UKIP won 3%
:28:00. > :28:05.of the vote, one third of what they polled today, there were 2 sit sis
:28:05. > :28:10.where their vote was larger than the -- 22 sit sis, where their
:28:10. > :28:13.society -- constituencies, where their vote was larger than others
:28:13. > :28:18.other parties. I don't think that the Conservative
:28:18. > :28:22.Party can take its own supporters for granted. Clearly the polls are
:28:22. > :28:27.showing that there has been some movement from the Conservative
:28:27. > :28:31.Party to UKIP, possibly from Labour to UKIP as well. I think that if a
:28:31. > :28:37.Conservative Party has a robust euro-sceptic policy in the future,
:28:37. > :28:42.hope leefl in the near future, that we will be -- hopefully in the near
:28:42. > :28:47.future, we can attract those gone to UKIP, and hopefully those who
:28:47. > :28:51.have found a home there over the past few years. Nigel Farage, the
:28:51. > :29:00.leader of UKIP, has made it his name to replace the Liberal
:29:00. > :29:02.Democrats as the third party. There is policies on national rail
:29:02. > :29:06.alongside Europe. One political operation working out of the back
:29:06. > :29:09.of a local pub has a different perspective. If you were consulting
:29:09. > :29:13.on this, people would feel more respect for the politicians and
:29:13. > :29:18.think they have listened to what I have to say. The people's pledge
:29:18. > :29:23.are campaigning for a referendum on the relationship with Europe, they
:29:23. > :29:28.think as it stands populations are ignoring popular opinion. UKIP is
:29:28. > :29:35.successfully capitalising on this. The people's pledge, it is a pro-
:29:35. > :29:39.referendum majority at the next election. You need MPs to get the
:29:39. > :29:43.referendum out. We are starting that process, you need Members of
:29:43. > :29:45.Parliament in order to progress there. The threats to Cameron are
:29:45. > :29:51.by UKIP, could be half-a-dozen seats the next general election,
:29:51. > :29:58.but a much bigger threat...What your proof of that? On the ground
:29:58. > :30:03.here, UKIP polled 3,500, we polled 13 though, nearly four-times as
:30:03. > :30:06.much. Any -- 13,000, nearly four- times as much. Any UKIP threat to
:30:06. > :30:10.Cameron is a temporary one. It might cost half-a-dozen seats in
:30:10. > :30:13.the next election. The real threat to Cameron is if the Labour Party
:30:13. > :30:18.comes out in favour of a referendum, he will lose another general
:30:18. > :30:23.election, not in coalition but going into opposition. This
:30:23. > :30:27.experience in Thurrock suggests not all seats with bulky UKIP votes
:30:27. > :30:31.would necessarily go to the Tories, but as likely to any other
:30:31. > :30:35.political party. But the clamour in the Conservatives is strong, and
:30:35. > :30:38.they want the fightback to go-to- start now. Sooner or later the
:30:38. > :30:41.Conservative Party will have to address the European question, most
:30:41. > :30:44.people alive today haven't had a say on the European question. We
:30:44. > :30:47.will have to have that referendum. When that commitment comes forward,
:30:47. > :30:52.I think we will be able to attract back those Conservative members
:30:52. > :30:55.that have gone to UKIP, and those UKIP members not part of the
:30:55. > :30:59.Conservative family for many years. There is real anxiety among
:30:59. > :31:03.Conservative MPs over this issue. They say in the forth coming
:31:03. > :31:07.boundary reviews, if MPs lose their seats, then they may as well defect
:31:07. > :31:11.to UKIP, go down in a ball of flames in the words of one MP we
:31:11. > :31:17.spoke to. Downing Street, however, does not sympathise, they point out
:31:17. > :31:21.two things. Firstly, they say often people who vote UKIP, vote UKIP for
:31:21. > :31:26.incoherent reasons, if they chase those voters, they too would look
:31:26. > :31:30.incoherent, and secondly, they reiterate, the key to them for the
:31:30. > :31:36.majority of 2015, lies in winning over Lib Dem and Labour swing
:31:36. > :31:40.voters, not UKIP. UKIP is not to be dismissed lightly,
:31:40. > :31:44.last year they came second, although distant, to Labour's win
:31:44. > :31:49.in Barnsley's by-election. We have a problem convincing people that we
:31:49. > :31:52.are the most euro-sceptic Government ever. Because Europe is
:31:52. > :31:55.not a particularly important national issue. If you look at
:31:55. > :31:58.recent polling, only 5% of people said our relationship with the EU
:31:58. > :32:03.was the most important thing on their mind. The most important
:32:03. > :32:06.things are jobs, the economy, the health service and immigration. So
:32:06. > :32:15.I think we are having almost too much of a focus on the European
:32:15. > :32:20.issue, and not enough focus on some of the big picture issues.
:32:20. > :32:24.gaining 100 votes the Tories could be denied by UKIP Thurrock at the
:32:24. > :32:28.next election. Their ambitions of replaces the Liberal Democrats as
:32:28. > :32:34.the third party, they need to gain their own seats, not depriving
:32:34. > :32:37.others of their's. Let's discuss this with two people
:32:37. > :32:41.with opposite political journeys, Lord Hesketh served with Margaret
:32:41. > :32:46.Thatcher and John Major. He defected to UKIP in October last
:32:46. > :32:52.year. Frf Westminster we are joined by George Eustice, the Conservative
:32:52. > :32:57.MP, once David Cameron's press secretary. He was previously a UKIP
:32:57. > :33:02.candidate in the 1999 European elections. What does I kip offer
:33:02. > :33:05.you that the Conservatives couldn't? I don't think -- UKIP
:33:05. > :33:12.offer you in with what the Conservatives couldn't? I don't
:33:12. > :33:20.think it is in terms of offer, I first canvased, aged seven, for
:33:20. > :33:30.Harold Macmillan in 1959, I think I was nine to be accurate. I think
:33:30. > :33:31.
:33:31. > :33:39.for me, the defining moment was when the, Mr Cameron reneged on the
:33:39. > :33:43.referendum. It is all very well to call us "swivel-eyed" and
:33:43. > :33:47."fruitcakes", but I have been Government Chief Whip and Treasury
:33:47. > :33:56.of the Tory Party. It doesn't stop you being a fruitcake? If that is
:33:56. > :34:01.the case, it says a lot of the Tory Party and the future to come.
:34:01. > :34:05.have made the opposite journey, you accept these guys are a real threat
:34:05. > :34:09.to you? UKIP has been around for ten years. I remember when I was a
:34:09. > :34:14.candidate for them in 1999, there was a poll that showed UKIP had 15%
:34:14. > :34:18.of the vote. They had done particularly well in the last three
:34:18. > :34:22.euro elections, I don't doubt they will do quit well in the next one.
:34:22. > :34:29.They are a protest vote. -- quite well in the next one. The real
:34:29. > :34:33.thing for me, is I am someone who wants repatriated powers from
:34:33. > :34:35.Europe, and the immigration process reversed. We can only do that with
:34:35. > :34:39.a Conservative Government, we have a euro-sceptic Conservative Party,
:34:39. > :34:43.and Prime Minister. What people have to stop doing is ending this
:34:43. > :34:47.game of arguing about referendums, that is what you do when you try to
:34:47. > :34:55.stop something happening, and argue to take powers back, that doesn't
:34:55. > :35:00.require a referendum. Lord Hesketh? A simple answer is UKIP is part of
:35:00. > :35:04.a bigger issue, within all of modern politics in the west. If we
:35:04. > :35:12.are in Marseille last weekend, for example, you will have seen the new
:35:12. > :35:19.French left rallies in unprecedented number. You will see
:35:19. > :35:23.Tea Party in the United States. You will see political groupings, which
:35:23. > :35:28.are novel and growing. Growing for a simple reason. In your case,
:35:28. > :35:32.single issue? Not at all. My job in UKIP is to be the defence spokesman,
:35:32. > :35:37.because I think the Government has done an appalling job, basically
:35:37. > :35:41.because they believe what they are told by the Ministry of Defence.
:35:41. > :35:46.That is what my main occupation is at UKIP, when I'm not actually
:35:46. > :35:51.working. The reality is, people are deeply
:35:51. > :35:56.disillusioned by being lied to, by many stream political parties
:35:56. > :36:00.across the spectrum. We didn't have to go to North Africa and see what
:36:00. > :36:05.happened in the Arab bring. It is all part of something bigger.
:36:05. > :36:09.George Eustice, you do accept there is widespread disillusion both with
:36:09. > :36:12.you and the other mainstream parties? There is always
:36:12. > :36:14.disillusion with mainstream political parties. We are in a
:36:14. > :36:18.democracy, I'm somebody who believes small parties should have
:36:18. > :36:23.a right to stand, and stand and make their case. I don't have a
:36:23. > :36:27.problem with that. As somebody who has stood for UKIP and has worked
:36:27. > :36:32.with them, I have no doubt there is well meaning people there who think
:36:32. > :36:35.they are doing the right thing for the country. They are a counter-
:36:35. > :36:38.productive reliability. Lord Hesketh is snorting here? I think
:36:38. > :36:42.it is extremely generous that we are being told that small parties
:36:42. > :36:48.should be allowed to stand. We are only a few yards away from getting
:36:48. > :36:53.back to the kind of extremism that existed in Europe before 1939, it
:36:53. > :36:56.is the most lid cus statement, to be perfectly frank, the reality is
:36:56. > :37:01.the Conservative Party are suffering because, firstly, you do
:37:01. > :37:05.not have a euro-sceptic Prime Minister. You have a Prime Minister
:37:05. > :37:08.who was advised by the Foreign Office, produced the document, that
:37:08. > :37:13.no-one could believe wouldn't be signed, because Sarkozy lost his
:37:13. > :37:17.temper it was signed. He was the first Prime Minister to wield a
:37:17. > :37:23.veto? A veto on what. You have to remember that this Government has
:37:23. > :37:26.brought in the EU Act, which now has a referendum lock. So it is
:37:26. > :37:31.impossible now, we are in the same situation as Ireland now, it would
:37:31. > :37:33.be impossible for a Government to pass further powers to the European
:37:33. > :37:38.Union without there being a referendum. That is the right time
:37:38. > :37:42.to use a referendum, to stop powers going away, not if you want to try
:37:42. > :37:46.to bring powers back. UKIP had a role to play 15 years ago to get
:37:46. > :37:49.this up the agenda. It is a redundant, counter-productive
:37:49. > :37:57.organisation. In terms of whether it damages the Conservative Party.
:37:57. > :38:02.There is no doubt most of its activistsics like Lord Hesketh, are
:38:02. > :38:05.Conservatives. They draw support from across the spectrum, they need
:38:05. > :38:10.to do the serious work of renegotiating our relationship with
:38:10. > :38:14.the European Union. Let me ask you one simple question. If support for
:38:14. > :38:17.UKIP were to cost the Conservatives an overall majority at the next
:38:17. > :38:20.election, would that be a good thing? They would only have
:38:20. > :38:30.themselves to blame. I'm asking whether you think it would be a
:38:30. > :38:35.good thing? It is not my position to make that judgment. Yes it is?
:38:35. > :38:37.You would rather see a Labour and Lib Dem coalition than a
:38:37. > :38:41.Conservative Government? Politics are about the art of the impossible.
:38:41. > :38:45.Then it would be impossible for the Conservatives to form a Government.
:38:45. > :38:55.I'm sorry, there is a large body of opinion in this country, not just
:38:55. > :38:55.
:38:55. > :38:59.confined to the Conservative Party Tont make a mistake about it.
:38:59. > :39:04.asking a question you seemed to decline to answer. The question is
:39:04. > :39:07.what is the realistic outcome, and the outcome of behaving in the way
:39:07. > :39:12.Mr Eustice and his colleagues are behaving, could result in that.
:39:13. > :39:17.They would have only themselves to blame. If you happen to be watching
:39:17. > :39:20.mainstream BBC north of the border, you won't be seeing this, Free
:39:20. > :39:24.Newsnight, or whatever it is called in that part of the country, is
:39:24. > :39:29.evidence of the extent to which Britain, as a whole, is joined
:39:29. > :39:32.together still by an active union, but an active union increasingly
:39:32. > :39:36.frayed around the edges. The year after next, the people of Scotland,
:39:36. > :39:40.but not the people of England l get the opportunity to decide whether
:39:40. > :39:45.they want to end the union all together and become independent. In
:39:45. > :39:49.a moment we will see if one of Scotland's best known writers,
:39:49. > :39:53.Irvine Welsh, can persuade the historian, Tristram Hunt, that the
:39:53. > :39:58.union has had its day. Here is how some of his characters addressed
:39:58. > :40:01.their national identity, in the film of his book, Trainer, with
:40:02. > :40:05.some -- Trainspotting, with some typically strong large Doesn't it
:40:05. > :40:11.make you proud to be Scottish? is shite being Scottish, we are the
:40:11. > :40:14.lowest of the low, the scum of the fucking earth, the most wretched,
:40:14. > :40:20.servile thrash ever shat into civilisation. Some people hate the
:40:20. > :40:25.English, I don't, they are just wankers, we, on the other hand, are
:40:25. > :40:30.colonised by wankers, we can't even find a decent culture to be conised
:40:30. > :40:35.by. We are ruled by a few arseholes, it is a shite state of affairs to
:40:35. > :40:40.be in, Tommy, and all the fresh air in the world won't make fucking
:40:40. > :40:47.difference. With us now is Irvine Welsh, and
:40:47. > :40:53.with us also Tristram Hunt. Now, are you surprised to find yourself
:40:53. > :40:59.a nationalist? Yeah, I don't really see myself as a nationalist, I see
:40:59. > :41:03.much more of the union being in a secular decline. I see the union as
:41:03. > :41:07.very much conceived to facilitate British imperial expansion and
:41:07. > :41:11.British industrial expansion, sustained by a kind of welfare
:41:11. > :41:16.state, and the two world wars, and all these things no longer exist,
:41:16. > :41:19.they have gone. I don't see what is driving the union, what is holding
:41:19. > :41:22.it together. What is driving the union now? I think that is a very
:41:22. > :41:26.compelling point. What was so interesting about the Trainspotting
:41:26. > :41:29.piece there was to suggest that the Scottish had been colonised, but
:41:29. > :41:33.the Scottish themselves were colonisers as part of the imperial
:41:33. > :41:40.project, when we look back at the creation of Britishness, whether it
:41:40. > :41:44.is Protestantantism, or imperialism, many of those driving influences in
:41:44. > :41:48.the 20th century have frayed. Just because that kind of construction
:41:48. > :41:52.of it is not there, it would be wrong to suggest that the
:41:52. > :41:55.attributes of nationhood have some how all together lost. I personally,
:41:55. > :41:59.very strongly believe, that Scotland, England, Wales, Northern
:41:59. > :42:05.Ireland, gains more from the cohesive whole, than it would do if
:42:05. > :42:08.it split up into ethnic sensablities of nationhood? I don't
:42:08. > :42:12.think that cohesive hole is that sense of Britishness, I don't think
:42:12. > :42:16.it is served by a political union any more, though. I think that's
:42:16. > :42:19.the thing that people will think, people feel in Scotland now, that
:42:19. > :42:25.it's not so much Britishness that they are against, it is the concept
:42:25. > :42:30.of the UK, and the usual union. I think that the two political
:42:30. > :42:34.cultures have become very divergant. He's right there, they have become
:42:34. > :42:38.very different? They have, but I think that is the strength almost
:42:38. > :42:42.of the settlement at the moment, that you can have those elements of
:42:42. > :42:47.devolution, within the architecture of the UK. I think what works at
:42:47. > :42:52.the moment is, contrary to what you think, is the political settlement,
:42:52. > :42:56.I think the cultural settlement has fallen away. That is why Gordon
:42:56. > :42:59.Brown, for all his determination to build British values and a sense of
:42:59. > :43:03.Britishness, was actually going against the cultural currents of
:43:03. > :43:07.feeling of Englishness, and Welshness. Why should people in
:43:07. > :43:11.England not be allowed to express their Englishness for fear of
:43:11. > :43:16.offending Scots or Welsh, and fear of their position, they are put in
:43:16. > :43:21.the union, of oppressing Scots and Welsh. Have you a fear of
:43:21. > :43:24.expressing your Englishness? I have never felt it. I have a lot of
:43:24. > :43:33.constituents who feel their Englishness is not allowed to be
:43:33. > :43:38.expressed on the same level as Scottishness. England is a
:43:38. > :43:42.multicultural post-imperial nation trying to work out its identity.
:43:42. > :43:46.Scotland is a different society developing and a different
:43:46. > :43:51.political culture. I don't see any connection now. I think that
:43:51. > :43:55.certainly the generation, the younger generation from the
:43:55. > :44:00.Trainspotting generations, every one of them seems to be much less
:44:00. > :44:04.vested in the union. Supposing the Scots decide not to go for
:44:04. > :44:07.independence though, that self- loathing that we saw in that clip
:44:07. > :44:11.from Trainspotting, that is going to get really acute, isn't it?
:44:11. > :44:17.think it will. People realise that it is not really an option now. I
:44:17. > :44:21.think if, it is like when David Cameron said to the SNP, which I
:44:21. > :44:25.think was a very Craven thing to say, look we will give you the tax-
:44:25. > :44:31.raising powers, not on my watch, you know. He was almost saying the
:44:31. > :44:36.game is over, and it is all about legacy with politicians. Tony Blair
:44:36. > :44:39.staying in office to become a longer serving Prime Minister than
:44:39. > :44:43.Margaret Thatcher. It is the same with David Cameron, he's conceded
:44:43. > :44:47.the point and saying not on my watch, just buy me ten years of
:44:47. > :44:51.being de facto members of the union. I certainly think he's doing great
:44:51. > :44:55.political damage to the union, but I think we also have to think about
:44:55. > :45:00.the strengths of Britain, on a global stage. Whether it is the
:45:00. > :45:04.army, whether it is the UN, whether it is our diplomacy, all of those
:45:04. > :45:08.elements actually give much greater riches and influence to Britain as
:45:08. > :45:12.a whole. Not in the case, when you look at some of the decisions made
:45:12. > :45:15.in foreign policy, if you look at Afghanistan, so many people were
:45:16. > :45:21.against that war, and I don't think you can pick these kinds of things
:45:21. > :45:25.as being pluses. Do you think post people really care about the world
:45:25. > :45:31.stage? I think people do, I think people like the fact that Britain
:45:31. > :45:34.is a leader on the world stage. We are good at diplomacy, we are an
:45:34. > :45:42.influential power for a small island stuck in the North Sea. We
:45:42. > :45:46.still have that. But, that doesn't alleviate the part of what we think
:45:46. > :45:50.about our post-imperial identity. He's right, we need space for
:45:50. > :45:54.English people to talk about their English identity more actively. I
:45:54. > :45:58.don't think they can do that in the construct of the political union of
:45:58. > :46:02.the UK. I think paradoxically the way to enhance Britishness is to
:46:02. > :46:07.get rid of the political union and enhance the cultural union, even
:46:07. > :46:12.bring Ireland back into the British fold. They may have a view on that,
:46:12. > :46:17.of course. But once you have taken this kind of imperial thing out of
:46:17. > :46:22.Britishness, and it is, and you get back to being this value-free idea
:46:22. > :46:26.of people living in these islands and sharing some kind of cultural
:46:26. > :46:29.heritage, but having the different free individual political
:46:29. > :46:34.expressions, to put their own systems together and work out their
:46:34. > :46:38.own issues. That is the strength of what we can have today, which is
:46:38. > :46:42.multiple identity, whether you can be West Indian-British, Pakistani-
:46:42. > :46:45.British, ethnic-British, you can have a identity there, and a
:46:45. > :46:49.federal British identity, which gives all sorts of broader
:46:49. > :46:52.advantages, I think, to the UK. People have moved on from that in