:00:12. > :00:16.Tonight, does the Home Secretary know what day of the week it is?
:00:16. > :00:21.As his lawyers quibble with the Government over dates, could Abu
:00:21. > :00:24.Qatada avoid deportation, because of a classic Home Office cock-up?
:00:24. > :00:28.The European Court of Human Rights is in the dock, there is a lot of
:00:28. > :00:31.big talk from justice ministers in Brighton, who want to reform it.
:00:31. > :00:36.Have they achieved anything? The one question they won't be
:00:37. > :00:41.asking in there, is why the country that gave the world Magna Carta,
:00:41. > :00:45.and habeas corpus, needs its human rights scrutinised by a bunch of
:00:45. > :00:49.Latvians and moldofrpbs. The Chancellor's wildly unpopular
:00:49. > :00:54.granny tax makes it through the Commons. Has he made dangerous
:00:54. > :00:59.enemies? Boris's dad and Winston Churchill's granddaughter are here
:00:59. > :01:03.to exchange views. Will 2012 will be day when a Saudi
:01:03. > :01:10.Arabian woman represents her country in the Olympics for the
:01:10. > :01:20.first time. We asked Princess Basma. Will Sagrada Familia, the
:01:20. > :01:21.
:01:21. > :01:26.unfishished Gaudi masterpiece be finished. We take a guided tour.
:01:26. > :01:33.You couldn't make it up, apparent low the finest minds in the Home
:01:33. > :01:36.Office couldn't nail down the cut- off date to Abu Qatada's appeal to
:01:36. > :01:43.the human chamber in the European Court of Human Rights to appeal
:01:43. > :01:48.against his deportation to Jordan. It was announced today the appeal
:01:48. > :01:51.was lodged within the right time. So there will be a delay with
:01:51. > :01:56.Qatada's removal from Britain. The timing was immaculate, just as
:01:56. > :02:01.Keneth Clarke was chairing a euro- wide conference in brighten,
:02:01. > :02:09.attempting to reduce the scope of the European Court. We went to
:02:09. > :02:16.fiefrpbd out more about this mess. -- find out more about this mess.
:02:16. > :02:21.# What a difference the day makes # 24 little hours
:02:21. > :02:24.Did the Home Secretary get the time wrong, the time of the appeal
:02:24. > :02:30.lapseing 24-hours after her lawyers had said. What we can say for
:02:30. > :02:34.certain, is Abu Qatada's lawyers lodged their appeal and the
:02:34. > :02:36.European Court said they received it. There was enough doubt to allow
:02:36. > :02:39.the opposition to drag the Home Secretary back to the Commons to
:02:39. > :02:42.answer an urgent question. Yesterday the Home Office said the
:02:42. > :02:46.appeal deadline was Monday night, but the European Court officials
:02:46. > :02:50.said it was Tuesday night. So on the Tuesday night deadline, while
:02:50. > :02:54.Abu Qatada was appealing to European Court judges, the Home
:02:54. > :02:59.Secretary, who thought the deadline was Monday night, was partying with
:02:59. > :03:05.X Factor judges, when the Home Secretary is accused of not knowing
:03:05. > :03:08.what day of the week it is, then confusion and chaos has turned into
:03:08. > :03:12.farce. The Home Secretary, though, was
:03:12. > :03:17.armed with documents that she says show a judgment becomes final
:03:17. > :03:22.before three months, the appeal has to be lodged within three months.
:03:22. > :03:26.Therefore, the time for the appeal lapses the day before the judgment
:03:26. > :03:30.becomes final. Article 43 of the European Convention on Human Rights,
:03:30. > :03:33.explains that a request for a referral to the Grand Chamber, must
:03:33. > :03:36.be made within a period of three months from the date of the
:03:36. > :03:40.judgment to the chamber, the letter that communicated the European
:03:40. > :03:43.Court's court judgment, dated the 17th of January, confirmed this,
:03:43. > :03:48.saying any request for the referral of the judgment to the Grand
:03:48. > :03:52.Chamber, must be duly reasoned, and reach the registry within three
:03:52. > :03:56.months of today's date. Therefore, the deadline was Monday, midnight,
:03:56. > :04:02.16th of April. What was lost in all of this, was whether any of it will
:04:02. > :04:07.make any difference to the UK Government's ability to deport Abu
:04:07. > :04:12.Qatada. The consensus of the Grand Chamber of TV legal pundits, was,
:04:12. > :04:17.it probably won't, unless, perhaps, it does. Ladies and gentlemen could
:04:17. > :04:21.we begin to take our seats, if possible. At least everyone could
:04:21. > :04:25.agree this was the right day to have an international legal row,
:04:25. > :04:28.because there were loads of international lawyers in town, well
:04:28. > :04:31.in Brighton, for a Council of Europe meeting, to discuss reform
:04:31. > :04:36.of the European Court of Human Rights.
:04:36. > :04:40.Because of a rather helpful leak, we're able to compare the text
:04:40. > :04:47.agreed here in Brighton, with the version that the British Government
:04:47. > :04:53.started off trying to secure. We can see that actually, the final
:04:53. > :04:56.version, falls short in several significant respects. In Some
:04:57. > :05:00.critics say it won't make much difference at all to the way the
:05:00. > :05:03.European Court operates, and its ability to frustrate the will of
:05:03. > :05:07.national Governments. Indeed it is not just critics saying that, the
:05:07. > :05:10.President of the Court says so as well.
:05:10. > :05:16.Sir Nicolas Bratza, the British judge who heads the court, told the
:05:16. > :05:20.meeting, that the court was already dealing with its massive backlog,
:05:20. > :05:25.160,000 cases and counting, but could not accept any erosion of its
:05:25. > :05:28.independence. It is nevertheless, not surprising
:05:28. > :05:32.that Governments, and indeed, public opinion, in the different
:05:32. > :05:36.countries, finds some of the court's judgments difficult to
:05:37. > :05:41.accept. It is, as the secretary- general has said, in the nature of
:05:41. > :05:45.the protection of fundamental rights and the rule of law, that
:05:45. > :05:49.sometimes minority interests have to be secured against the view of
:05:49. > :05:52.the majority. Keneth Clarke told the post-meeting press conference,
:05:52. > :05:57.that the UK Government had achieved all the reform it was looking for.
:05:57. > :06:00.I though, reminded him of what the President had said earlier.
:06:00. > :06:03.What do you make of the President of the Court's comments this
:06:03. > :06:08.morning, to the effect that what's happened here really won't make
:06:08. > :06:12.much difference to the way the court operates? It is a nuance, I
:06:12. > :06:18.think, between myself and Nicolas Bratza, I understand judges being
:06:18. > :06:23.defensive, when the Government responsible for the convention
:06:23. > :06:26.start putting pressure on them to reform. He doesn't object to what
:06:26. > :06:32.we are doing, he slightly implies they would have done it any way. I
:06:32. > :06:35.think we would have waited years if we had just waited for the court to
:06:35. > :06:40.reform itself. There is a long way to go, according to the court's
:06:40. > :06:44.critics, starting with the quality of the 47 judges. Around half of
:06:44. > :06:50.whom have no judicial experience before their appointment. It is,
:06:50. > :06:53.though, not a bad job, �13,000 a year, tax-free, with private
:06:53. > :07:00.healthcare and a full pension after five years service. The judgments,
:07:00. > :07:04.though, aren't all so gold-plated. Some of them you read and you can
:07:04. > :07:09.see that they have been penned by a jolly good lawyer. There are other
:07:09. > :07:15.decisions you look at and wonder, frankly, in the nicest possible way,
:07:15. > :07:19.what planet they are on! The court is there, say its supporters, to
:07:19. > :07:24.safeguard the rights of the powerless. It is not therefore
:07:24. > :07:27.surprising, that the powerful sometimes get angry.
:07:27. > :07:32.Critics say no court whose judgment strays so far and so often from
:07:32. > :07:36.public opinion, can ever be called legitimate for long.
:07:36. > :07:40.The Home Office didn't want to provide a minister to discuss
:07:40. > :07:46.today's development, so to chew over what's happened in Brighton,
:07:46. > :07:52.and the continuing saga of Abu Qatada, we brought together Knowles
:07:52. > :07:57.QC, a specialist in this law, and Dan Hannan, a Conservative MP.
:07:57. > :08:00.This is yet another embarrassment for the Government? It is a problem
:08:00. > :08:05.that is intrinsic in having a wretched court that makes up the
:08:05. > :08:08.law as it goes along. And the judges who rule based on what they
:08:08. > :08:11.think the law ought to say rather than what it is. It is Abu Qatada
:08:11. > :08:16.and the Home Office not understanding the deadline. Senior
:08:16. > :08:21.Liberal Democrats said tonight this is an Olympic-standard screw up?
:08:21. > :08:24.a scrap between Theresa May and the ECHR, I know whose side I'm on, in
:08:24. > :08:29.any normal reading of the thing, three months is three months, if
:08:29. > :08:33.you try to use your bus pass the day after the third month it
:08:33. > :08:37.wouldn't work. In a way who cares about that. I think a lot of people
:08:37. > :08:40.do care about that, because the law is the law? It is not the detail
:08:40. > :08:44.here that is the problem. The problem is that the elected Home
:08:44. > :08:48.Secretary, answerable to the country, is not able to remove from
:08:48. > :08:53.our country, somebody who entered it illegally, who shouldn't be here,
:08:53. > :08:55.who has been linked to Al-Qaeda. Despite the efforts of every party
:08:56. > :09:00.and united public opinion behind this, that we are, again, in the
:09:00. > :09:03.hands, as you just saw in the report, these unqualified judges.
:09:03. > :09:07.We are, in the meantime, having to pay both the defence and
:09:07. > :09:11.prosecution, we are paying to try to deport Mr Qatada, and we are
:09:11. > :09:16.paying his costs and to defend him in the meantime. Julian Knowles,
:09:16. > :09:22.the fact is, that Theresa May wasn't the mistress of the detail,
:09:22. > :09:27.with the fall laings of lawyers in the Home Office, who could possibly
:09:27. > :09:30.have got the date right, it is a cock-up? It is a cock-up, with the
:09:30. > :09:34.quality of the defence of Theresa May like we have just heard, it is
:09:34. > :09:38.hardly surprising these cock-ups are made. We don't expect much from
:09:38. > :09:42.Tory Home Secretarys, but even she should have got this right. The
:09:42. > :09:47.rules are clear, the court doesn't make the law as they going along,
:09:47. > :09:50.we understand what the time limits mean. The Government having lost
:09:50. > :09:59.once against Abu Qatada's lawyer, they should have worked on the
:09:59. > :10:04.basis they probably knew what they were doing. They had precedents
:10:04. > :10:08.from different judges saying the date goes from the day after. The
:10:08. > :10:11.Telegraph tomorrow morning is saying this could mean that Abu
:10:11. > :10:14.Qatada is freed, on your understanding, what is the least
:10:14. > :10:21.that could happen, and what is the most that can happen? Keneth Clarke
:10:21. > :10:24.is right on this. This time lit it argument won't -- limit argument
:10:24. > :10:27.won't effect the substance, there will be a new deportation order to
:10:27. > :10:30.be tested through the court. There is the outstanding appeal to the
:10:30. > :10:34.Grand Chamber, if they accept it, it won't make any real practical
:10:34. > :10:39.difference to the outcome. He won't be freed? No. But it will delay the
:10:39. > :10:42.deportation at least? It won't delay, in any meaningful sense,
:10:42. > :10:47.given the process will be long too, it will be measured in days or
:10:47. > :10:52.weeks, it won't be substantial. Abu Qatada will still go to Jordan,
:10:52. > :10:56.Dan Hannan? Yeah, but in the meantime we are paying for his
:10:56. > :11:00.benefits, and both sides of the deal. Let as stand back, and ask
:11:00. > :11:04.what ought to be the most basic question of all, it is almost never
:11:04. > :11:10.actually raised, what specific benefits acue to the United Kingdom,
:11:10. > :11:13.as the result of our adhesion to the ECHR, I'm not talking the
:11:13. > :11:17.benefits to Matrix Chambers and the burgeoning human rights lawyers,
:11:17. > :11:22.I'm talking about the benefits for the country as a whole. You stand
:11:22. > :11:32.in the opposite corner to Keneth Clarke, Keneth Clarke is not saying
:11:32. > :11:35.
:11:35. > :11:41.scrap it, he's saying reform it. We were -- you are at odds, in fact,
:11:41. > :11:45.with the coalition Government? reason I'm against it, is not
:11:45. > :11:48.because I disagree with one particular judgment, the reason I'm
:11:48. > :11:52.against it, basically political decisions, such as who is allowed
:11:52. > :11:55.into the UK, such as whether prisoners should vote, should be
:11:55. > :11:59.made by elected representatives who are answerable to the rest of the
:11:59. > :12:06.country, so we can vote for them origins them on the basis of how
:12:06. > :12:09.they have voted. Paper rights, without proper democracy are
:12:09. > :12:13.worthless. The institution of East Germany had wonderful guarantees of
:12:13. > :12:17.rights, but without a proper democratic system they were
:12:17. > :12:21.worthless. We have this framework to stop lawlessness, but the fact
:12:21. > :12:25.is the Italians disregard it when they want to. Actually, it is
:12:25. > :12:31.sometimes not worth the paper it is printed on? I will come to that in
:12:31. > :12:34.a minute. Can I answer the question posed, what benefit accrued to the
:12:34. > :12:41.country, the celebration and upholding of the rule of law. That
:12:41. > :12:46.is the benefit. If I can just finish. We don't like prisoners
:12:46. > :12:51.voting? We uphold the values and the rule of law. In the convention,
:12:51. > :12:54.which was a British creation, the drafting was led by David Maxwell,
:12:54. > :12:59.Sir Winston Churchill was the proponent of the convention. That
:12:59. > :13:04.is the benefit that accrues to the country. I don't accept the second
:13:04. > :13:07.point that the French and Italians deregard it, if they do, say pity,
:13:07. > :13:13.celebrate the fact that we uphold and adhere to the values we have
:13:13. > :13:16.signed up to. Look at, 47 countries, and to get on, as David Grossman
:13:16. > :13:21.clearly put it t you don't ever have to be a practising lawyer,
:13:21. > :13:25.after five years you get your pension, �135,000 a year, and don't
:13:25. > :13:28.you think that something like as important and as weighty as the
:13:28. > :13:32.court should have people that are perhaps better qualified attending
:13:32. > :13:35.it, rather than what seems like randoms, they don't have to be
:13:35. > :13:40.judges in their own countries? is right, and that is a valid
:13:40. > :13:45.criticismment we are dealing with a body which is deal -- criticism, we
:13:45. > :13:50.are doling with a body which is dealing with countries that don't
:13:50. > :13:54.have mature democracies, and may have only had judiciaries for 15
:13:54. > :13:58.years. As the court matures and the countries mat tue, they will have
:13:58. > :14:01.experienced judges to join the court. Don't lose sight of the fact
:14:01. > :14:05.that the vast majority of judge, like Sir Nicolas Bratza, who knows
:14:05. > :14:12.more about this than anybody else, are of incredible distinction.
:14:12. > :14:15.court is here to stay, that is the fact of the matter isn't it? That
:14:15. > :14:19.is up to the United Kingdom, and the elect the representatives and
:14:19. > :14:23.us. I want to come back to the idea that it is just me alleging that
:14:23. > :14:27.the court is ruling on the basis of what it thinks the court ought to
:14:27. > :14:31.say rather than what it says it should. Sir Nicolas Bratza made the
:14:31. > :14:37.argument blatantly in an interview where he was about to retire, he
:14:37. > :14:42.said we only do that when the legislation is far behind changing
:14:42. > :14:46.public morals. Who is he to decide Take That, if anyone thinks there
:14:46. > :14:49.is an injustice, they should stand for parliament and face the
:14:49. > :14:54.electorate and that is how the system of law should work.
:14:54. > :14:58.As taxes go, the granny tax, passed today in the Commons, was not one
:14:58. > :15:01.of the Chancellor's most popular budget manoeuvres, it freezes the
:15:01. > :15:05.threshold at which older people begin to pay tax on their incomes,
:15:05. > :15:10.and it hits the middle-classes. There wasn't an Occupy-style
:15:10. > :15:14.protest, there was no rioting, no broken windows, were there any
:15:14. > :15:19.arrests, but there has been plenty of raw anger. But is there that
:15:19. > :15:23.much in the measure for pensioners to get het up over. What is is real
:15:23. > :15:27.impact of this called granny tax? personal allowance is that chunk of
:15:27. > :15:32.your income that you can earn before tax kicks in, anything above
:15:32. > :15:37.that you are charged 20%, 40% or 50%, depending on that. The
:15:37. > :15:41.allowance for pensioners is �10,500, going up with inflation. That has
:15:41. > :15:44.now been capped in the budget by the Chancellor in the budget last
:15:44. > :15:49.month. And that means anything above that they will have to pay
:15:49. > :15:55.some semblance of tax, 4.4 million will be worse off to the tune of
:15:55. > :16:00.�84 a year, less than a million will be worse off to the tune of
:16:00. > :16:03.�285 per year if they retire next year. The unaffected group, five
:16:03. > :16:09.million people, depending on the state pension for their income,
:16:09. > :16:15.they will be better off, because the state pension has gone up to
:16:15. > :16:21.�107.45. The term granny tax is a misnomer, it is not a tax per say,
:16:21. > :16:25.it is those who expected to get more income or be taxed less will
:16:25. > :16:30.not be so. Pensioners are not one of the worst affected groups in the
:16:30. > :16:34.recession at all? People will say they still have the TV license, the
:16:34. > :16:38.winter fuel alooints, and the state pension is going -- allowance, and
:16:38. > :16:41.the state pension is going up. Some will say the pensioners are the
:16:41. > :16:46.least affected by the cuts since the coalition came to power. Their
:16:46. > :16:51.incomes are down 1% over the last year-and-a-half or so. A couple
:16:51. > :16:56.without children, their incomes are down about 2%, but the grouping
:16:56. > :17:00.that it has affected most are couples with kids, and their down
:17:00. > :17:05.3.5%, up to 4.7%. There will also be those who say that pensioners
:17:05. > :17:09.will benefit a lot from house price rises that we have seen over the
:17:10. > :17:14.last 15 years, and a lot of them retired on final salary schemes,
:17:14. > :17:18.which are pretty generous, a the rest of us don't benefit from that.
:17:18. > :17:22.The IFS, the Institute for Fiscal Studies had a look at comparative
:17:22. > :17:26.incomes, how pensions compared to the average income in the land,
:17:26. > :17:30.they found that in the 70s, pensioners earned about 30% less
:17:30. > :17:35.than the average, but over the last decade-and-a-half, mostly under
:17:35. > :17:39.Labour, that has shot up. Now they are closer to 90% of the median
:17:39. > :17:43.income, or just by 10% less than what the average earning person
:17:43. > :17:47.would earn. But, of course, if you have savings, and you depend on
:17:47. > :17:53.that and you are a pensioner, you know all about it, because the bank
:17:53. > :17:57.rate is at an all-time low, and pensioners are adversely affected
:17:57. > :18:04.by inflation more than others, because they pay more on fuel and
:18:04. > :18:09.less on iPads and clothes. With me are now, two, well, every day old
:18:09. > :18:15.people, the writer Stanley Johnson, father of Boris and grandfather of
:18:15. > :18:24.several is here, as well as the granddaughter of wins done
:18:24. > :18:29.Churchill, Emma Soamess. Pensioners actually have got it pretty good?
:18:29. > :18:32.don't think so, they are a very vulnerable demographic in our
:18:32. > :18:42.society. It is not for nothing that all these benefits have accrued to
:18:42. > :18:46.this age group, because they are so vulnerable. Saying they are 1%
:18:46. > :18:50.better compared to 5% for a couple with children. That does not
:18:50. > :18:53.account for the really much, much higher rates of inflation that
:18:53. > :18:57.pensioners suffer when compared with the rest of the population. I
:18:57. > :19:03.mean, if you would like some figures, over the last four years
:19:03. > :19:08.it has been 14% for the general population and for people over 65
:19:08. > :19:11.it is 22%. Too much whingeing? I'm amazed
:19:11. > :19:17.actually all the winging going on by the other side. -- whingeing
:19:17. > :19:23.going on by the other side. Ken Livingstone's hikes have killed the
:19:23. > :19:27.peingers far more. You are not campaign -- Pensioners far more.
:19:27. > :19:33.You are not campaigning for your son? You introduced me as Boris's
:19:33. > :19:38.father so I will go on that. What is your view, though, is your view
:19:38. > :19:43.really that great power means that people really should be taking the
:19:43. > :19:48.hit the same as everybody else in society? My view is your fellow
:19:48. > :19:52.said some sound things. No doubt about it, we are 15 million
:19:52. > :19:56.pensioners now, we are going to go up to more than that. But the
:19:56. > :19:59.reality is, the reality is the things which are really hitting
:19:59. > :20:04.pensioners are not this, it is not this, I don't want to make another
:20:04. > :20:09.political point, I have to tell you, I mean, if, the cost of transport,
:20:09. > :20:12.the cost of transport, if you keep the bus pass where it is, that's
:20:12. > :20:17.going to make far for more pensioners than anything else.
:20:18. > :20:22.Shall we get rid of the bus passes? We shouldn't get rid of them.
:20:22. > :20:25.son believes in bus passes for older people? I'm in favour of that.
:20:25. > :20:29.This is far more important for the pensioners than all this stuff,
:20:29. > :20:34.look all this stuff about whether we bring the pensioners up to where
:20:34. > :20:37.everybody else. That's just nonsense.
:20:37. > :20:42.Pensioners, in many ways, actually, have other things that bring them
:20:42. > :20:46.up, they still perhaps still have those gold-plated pensions. Their
:20:46. > :20:51.savings aren't taking a lot of, or accruing a lot of interest at the
:20:51. > :20:57.moment, but they are better placed in many ways. There are four
:20:58. > :21:00.million pensioners who are earning or living on an income between
:21:00. > :21:05.�10,000-�24,000, that is not rich. These are the people who are going
:21:05. > :21:10.to be hit by the freezing of the tax allowance. This Government has
:21:10. > :21:16.said they won't hit, they won't touch benefits. However, they are
:21:16. > :21:23.obviously going to touch, they looks a though they are going to
:21:24. > :21:27.touch. But, is Emma Soamess right, that group from �10,000-�24,000
:21:27. > :21:30.will be hit badly. I'm saying they will not be hit bad low, compared
:21:30. > :21:35.with all the other things that will hit them. I'm going to make a
:21:35. > :21:41.political point here, we are in a political situation. That is the
:21:41. > :21:44.reality, if you don't do what Boris is doing, you are going to be in
:21:44. > :21:47.massive trouble. In terms of translating into vote, do you think
:21:47. > :21:51.older people are very angry at the moment? Yes, I do. I think it is
:21:51. > :21:53.partly to do with the comouncation thing. Unlike everything else in --
:21:53. > :21:58.communication thing. Unlike everything else in the budget it
:21:58. > :22:03.was jumped at them. It was presented in, I thought, an
:22:03. > :22:08.infuriating and rather patronising way as a simplification. One man's
:22:08. > :22:12.simplification is �4 a week off a small pension for somebody else.
:22:12. > :22:17.That whole issue about being patronised and not having that much
:22:17. > :22:21.power to fight back, is actually a proper point, well made, isn't it?
:22:21. > :22:25.Do you know anything something, feel it is a red herring, I think
:22:25. > :22:29.someone has picked this one up and said why don't we call it a Grandpa
:22:30. > :22:35.tax, and attack the Government on this one. You think there should be
:22:35. > :22:39.an equalisation of the tax allowance? As far as I'm concerned
:22:39. > :22:43.about this, it is a sensible thing, but it is not the crucial issue at
:22:43. > :22:49.the moment. The issue that was passed today, that eventually there
:22:49. > :22:52.will be an equalisation of the tax allowance, you think it is
:22:52. > :22:57.perfectly reasonable? It will happen in 2013, affecting a 13458
:22:57. > :23:04.amount of people. Your figure was �-- affecting a small amount of
:23:04. > :23:09.people. You figure was �483, and Ken Livingstone will be costing
:23:09. > :23:12.�1,000. That is a lot of money to many pensioners? But less than
:23:12. > :23:16.�1,000. You are happy with what the Government is doing for older
:23:16. > :23:20.people? The Government does what the Government does. On this last
:23:20. > :23:24.point, are you happy to have, you are obviously happy to have your
:23:24. > :23:29.free bus pass, are you happy to have your Winter Fuel Allowance,
:23:29. > :23:34.and your free television license, do you not think there is time for
:23:34. > :23:39.these things to be scrapped, if you really want equalisation? The issue
:23:39. > :23:46.today is can people get a decent living out of the money they have.
:23:46. > :23:51.The answer to that is, with quanative easing, and really low
:23:51. > :23:55.interest rates, it is, and the actually end of the final salary
:23:55. > :24:00.pension, there will be fewer and fewer people on that. Older people
:24:00. > :24:05.are taking a big hit in rather a subtle way. They can't say, oh yes,
:24:06. > :24:10.we have lost a benefit like child benefit, and the middle-classes,
:24:10. > :24:17.because that hasn't happened. Actually they are suffering, really,
:24:17. > :24:21.suffering, from high inflation, low savings rates, and terrifyingly
:24:21. > :24:24.dropping annuity rates. I don't believe it. Will there be any
:24:25. > :24:30.female Saudi competitors at the London Olympics this summer, Saudi
:24:30. > :24:32.Arabia has never allowed a woman to compete at the games before. The
:24:32. > :24:36.International Olympic Committee hope that is about to change,
:24:36. > :24:40.because it breaches their rules. Even if the Saudis relent will it
:24:40. > :24:45.make a difference in a country where woman are banned from
:24:45. > :24:51.venturing outside their houses without a chaperone, we will hear
:24:51. > :24:55.from one Saudi Princess calling for reforms in her home land. Sue Lloyd
:24:55. > :25:04.Roberts has been to Saudi Arabia recently to see what it is really
:25:04. > :25:10.like for women there. The lot of a Saudi woman is not a
:25:10. > :25:14.happy one. Swathed in an all- covering abaya whenever she leaves
:25:14. > :25:19.home, unable to drive, limitations on work or sport. Shopping is about
:25:19. > :25:25.the only activity available. When I was in the king dom, a year
:25:25. > :25:30.ago, women had to be served by non- Saudi men in lingerie shops. Now,
:25:30. > :25:38.due to a campaign by Reem Asaad, women are, at last, allowed to
:25:38. > :25:42.serve women. That is one battle won. But what about the driving? We just
:25:42. > :25:46.hope it is a question at a time, we keep our fingers crossed, but we
:25:46. > :25:50.are also calling for a proper transport system. Even if women
:25:50. > :26:00.were allowed to drive, not all women eligible or qualified to
:26:00. > :26:04.
:26:04. > :26:09.cruise down the streets any way. The talk today in Saudi is about
:26:09. > :26:14.women and sport. Up until today Saudi Arabia is not sending any
:26:14. > :26:22.female competitors to the London Olympics. At least one Saudi woman
:26:22. > :26:29.might be eligible. This is the first female Saudi athlete to
:26:29. > :26:39.compete in the 2010 youth Olympics. And yet, the head of the Saudi
:26:39. > :26:39.
:26:39. > :26:44.Olympic Committee, President Nawaf It could be that there simply
:26:44. > :26:50.aren't enough women of a standard, Reem Asaad says there's hardly any
:26:50. > :26:55.sport today for her school aged daughters. Unfortunately, back in
:26:55. > :27:00.the 80s, in my times, when I was a school kid, we used to play volley
:27:00. > :27:04.ball, basketball, badminton, whatever, I mean so many types of
:27:04. > :27:10.sports, more than I can count. Gymnastics, aerobics, everything
:27:10. > :27:14.you can think about. I mean, things in Saudi Arabia were more
:27:14. > :27:20.progressive for females back then in many respects. Why has it gone
:27:20. > :27:26.backwards then for women? I don't know, I think the majority of the
:27:26. > :27:31.traditionalists, have dominated the population. Things are not getting
:27:31. > :27:36.better for women in the king dom of Saudi Arabia? They are getting
:27:36. > :27:43.better in some ways, one step forward two steps back, we are
:27:44. > :27:48.still fighting along the way. Then there is the social and family
:27:48. > :27:52.restrictions on women. Unfair divorce laws make it
:27:52. > :27:54.impossible for women to apply. After the divorce, the father gets
:27:54. > :27:59.custody of children over the age of six.
:27:59. > :28:03.And in Jeddah, I found women who were widowed, or had been abandoned
:28:03. > :28:07.by their husbands, virtual prisoners in their own homes.
:28:07. > :28:12.Unable even to attend a hospital appointment, without a male
:28:12. > :28:18.guardian to accompany her. Even professional women, lawyers
:28:18. > :28:22.and doctors are affected. They have to ask their male guardians for pr
:28:22. > :28:26.mission to travel. This -- permission to travel. This woman is
:28:26. > :28:29.working in London. As a professional woman, I have a
:28:29. > :28:34.supportive husband, I want to go to a conference, why would I need to
:28:34. > :28:37.get the permission of my guardian to let me to go to attend the
:28:37. > :28:44.conference. If I am being trustworthy, working, independent,
:28:44. > :28:50.going to hospitals, seeing patients, looking after people and saving
:28:50. > :28:56.life, can't I go on my own to attend a conference without the
:28:56. > :28:59.permission of my guardian. As a professional woman don't you feel
:28:59. > :29:07.insults? I don't feel insults, I have been brought up in that
:29:07. > :29:16.society and culture, change takes time to change. Change is painful
:29:17. > :29:22.slow, Reem Asaad has achieved a small victory in the shopping place,
:29:22. > :29:27.but she worries about her daughter. One of my daughters is an aspiring
:29:27. > :29:31.golfer, if it takes that I have to get out of this place and get her
:29:31. > :29:35.to have her golfing dream, I will. Some doubt change will come soon
:29:35. > :29:40.enough, even for the next generation.
:29:40. > :29:43.With me is Princess Basma, her uncle is the king of Saudi Arabia,
:29:43. > :29:50.and her father was the former ruler there.
:29:50. > :29:53.Princess Basma, you are calling for a fundamental change in the country.
:29:53. > :30:01.Is something like the IOC coming with requests for women for the
:30:01. > :30:08.Olympics, does that help you? doesn't at all. It is just another
:30:08. > :30:11.slogan for another agenda, political agenda, that is calling
:30:11. > :30:15.for attention about something or another, to acquire something
:30:15. > :30:21.behind it. I have no idea what they have in mind, I don't know if they
:30:21. > :30:25.have done their homework properly. If they want women from Saudi
:30:25. > :30:32.Arabia to be represented in the Olympics, I would have thought that
:30:32. > :30:36.they would have at least asked if even PE exists in our schools for
:30:36. > :30:41.women. Does it offend you that kind of lack of knowledge? Definitely it
:30:41. > :30:47.offends me. It offends me and it frustrates me, it is being used in
:30:47. > :30:55.the media as something of a bravery, human rights, women's rights,
:30:55. > :30:58.women's empowerment, and being like that. I think it is really unfair.
:30:58. > :31:04.You want fundamental change, in what way, what is it you want to
:31:04. > :31:09.see happen in your country? Reform of the constitution. You want a
:31:09. > :31:14.constitution full stop? I want a constitution full stop, readable,
:31:14. > :31:19.tangible, something which is coherent, and transparent. That we
:31:19. > :31:22.can rely on and come back to, whenever we have something to
:31:22. > :31:26.execute. This would be a constitution which sets out, what,
:31:26. > :31:31.equal rights for women? Equal rights for women. Not just about
:31:31. > :31:35.driving? It is actually nothing about driving. I mean, you know. It
:31:35. > :31:40.is ridiculous, everywhere I go, everybody tells me, do women drive
:31:40. > :31:45.in Saudi, I say do women have any rights in Saudi. Before you start
:31:45. > :31:50.having electricity in your home, you have to be the infrastructure
:31:50. > :31:54.to get that electricity. For women, whether they be women who are
:31:54. > :31:57.doctors, women who work as nurses or whatever, even though they can
:31:57. > :32:03.be professional women, within the home and within the law of the
:32:03. > :32:09.country, they have no power whatsoever? No they don't
:32:09. > :32:15.therefore, they are subject to, and often abused, divorced, left alone?
:32:15. > :32:19.Definitely, its all over the news in Saudi Arabia, and the newspapers.
:32:19. > :32:25.I'm not saying new knowledge. If you go back to the Saudi newspapers,
:32:25. > :32:30.you would find all sorts of stories over there. Why on earth is nobody
:32:30. > :32:34.looking there, and reading what's going on in the local media.
:32:34. > :32:38.are speaking out, but there isn't a network of people like you is
:32:38. > :32:44.there? No there is not. You want, do you want revolution or reform?
:32:44. > :32:49.Reform definitely. I love my king, I love my family. I think they can
:32:49. > :32:53.do a lot. There is something missing, a link, which I am
:32:53. > :32:57.shedding a light on. But your family is resistant to this, the
:32:57. > :33:02.males in your family are resistant to this? I wouldn't say resistant
:33:02. > :33:08.as much as I would say scared. Aren't they going to be more scared
:33:08. > :33:12.in way as the years go by, as we have seen in the Arab Spring and
:33:12. > :33:16.the failed Iranian revolution, women coming to the fore more and
:33:16. > :33:19.more, isn't there a danger if they don't listen to you and others like
:33:20. > :33:26.you, that it won't be reform, it will be a revolution? I wouldn't
:33:26. > :33:35.put it in that form, but I would rather put it in another form,
:33:35. > :33:39.which is, it's about time that we sat at the on the same table, talk,
:33:39. > :33:44.negotiate and interact, and really put our hands together and get down
:33:44. > :33:53.there, and do something about the constitution, and the reform. The
:33:53. > :33:59.king has ordered last year for revising the constitution, and
:33:59. > :34:07.putting the laws that protect women, and he has actually ordered a big
:34:07. > :34:11.sum of money for the ministry to have that done. But nothing has
:34:11. > :34:17.been done. What we have now, this weekend, is the Grand Prix going
:34:17. > :34:21.ahead in Bahrain. That's a disaster, in my opinion. Why is it a
:34:21. > :34:28.disaster? Because, I think they are getting people endangered, just
:34:28. > :34:33.because they want to get a message through that whatever it going on
:34:33. > :34:38.in Bahrain is not dangerous enough for westerners or other people to
:34:38. > :34:48.come to Bahrain. That's the wrong message to give. Whoever is
:34:48. > :34:50.
:34:50. > :34:55.responsible about this event, is definitely not doing the human tear
:34:55. > :34:57.ian thing. Would you have -- Humanitarian thing. Would you like
:34:57. > :35:06.to have seen it stopped? I would have really pushed to have it
:35:06. > :35:11.stopped, because it is not ethical. Some say it is one of the wonders
:35:11. > :35:17.of the modern world, others say someone should take a machine gun
:35:17. > :35:21.to it. The Basilica of the Sagrada Familia, is a masterpiece of the
:35:21. > :35:25.modernist architect, Antonio Gaudi, and a proud symbol of Catalan
:35:25. > :35:28.identity. Ever since Gaudi died in 1926, with the temple incomplete,
:35:28. > :35:34.there is a debate about whether or not to finish it. At last there is
:35:34. > :35:38.a roof on it, and completion is pencilled for the centinary of
:35:38. > :35:42.Gaudi's death. Some say the building has become a travesty of
:35:42. > :35:52.his vision, and the latest should be shot to pieces. We have had a
:35:52. > :36:01.
:36:01. > :36:05.It is one of the wonders of the modern world, a vauntingly
:36:05. > :36:10.ambitious project to the glory of God, that consumed the lives of the
:36:10. > :36:16.men that worked on it. It is a source of great controversy, even
:36:16. > :36:22.as the building edges towards completion. You can't help but be
:36:23. > :36:32.awed by its majesty and size, and its slight kookiness. It has a
:36:32. > :36:37.futuristic feel in a 70s way, it is like the first Cathedral on Mars.
:36:37. > :36:42.This is the spectacular Sagrada Familia. The Basilica to the Holy
:36:42. > :36:49.Family, which is forever associated with the outlandishly brilliant
:36:49. > :36:53.Catalan architect, Antonio Gaudi. It is the greatest symbol of the
:36:53. > :36:59.region of Catalonia. But for decades, ever since Gaudi died,
:36:59. > :37:02.leaving it unfinished, in fact, it has also been a monument to
:37:02. > :37:06.emegmatic genius, frozen at the at the moment when the money man who
:37:06. > :37:12.could complete it, was no long -- the one man who could complete it,
:37:12. > :37:18.was no longer around for it. This eastern side of the Sagrada Familia,
:37:18. > :37:24.is indisputably loyal to Gaudi's vision, it was incomplete in the
:37:24. > :37:29.1920s, some who come to look at his Nativity might think the old boy
:37:29. > :37:33.was off his trolley, he was compulsive and fan nattically to
:37:34. > :37:40.get the detail right, he had turkeys anaesthetised today see how
:37:40. > :37:47.they will look up here after making -- anaesthetised today see how they
:37:47. > :37:54.will look. Talking of perspective, you might think it is a given that
:37:54. > :38:00.all this work by Gaudi's successors would be well appreciated, but no,
:38:00. > :38:04.some say the building would have been better left unfinished. It is
:38:05. > :38:07.a queer piece that won't take the centre. It won't be a place that
:38:07. > :38:11.architects will come for inspiration. Really, you don't
:38:11. > :38:21.think so? No, not at all. And if they do, they are on the wrong
:38:21. > :38:24.
:38:24. > :38:32.track. In the window there are two very
:38:32. > :38:39.important parts. One is the colour, the other is the rhythm that the
:38:39. > :38:43.lead gives to the composition. Toni Villa-Grau is one of the many
:38:43. > :38:48.artists that feed the insaitable appetite of Sagrada Familia for
:38:48. > :38:52.fine work, in his case, leaded windows. He said Gaudi's vision
:38:52. > :38:59.turned old ideas about light on their head. It is normal in the
:38:59. > :39:06.Gothic time that the top of a window, it is very, it has many
:39:06. > :39:15.colours, and the bottom, less colour. Because these give a
:39:15. > :39:25.regular light to all of the church. But Gaudi went the contrary, he
:39:25. > :39:33.
:39:33. > :39:37.said the top must be without colour, the bottom, full of colour.
:39:37. > :39:43.Villa-Grau's designs are realised at this workshop in Barcelona.
:39:43. > :39:47.Despite the controversy over the Sagrada Familia, they are soldering
:39:47. > :39:52.on regardless, as they have for generations. They have a fine
:39:52. > :39:59.appreciation of the play of the Catalan light.
:39:59. > :40:05.We need to set a palette of colours, to match the light it is going to
:40:05. > :40:08.receive. The Sagrada Familia is an
:40:08. > :40:18.architectural tour deforce, a huge tourist attraction, and a working
:40:18. > :40:35.
:40:35. > :40:40.While Father Lluis Bonet attends to the souls of his flock at the
:40:40. > :40:45.Sagrada Familia. His brother is responsible for their physical well
:40:45. > :40:50.being while they are under this roof. Let me just repeat that, this
:40:50. > :40:54.roof. Bonet, chief architect here for some 30 years, and therefore
:40:54. > :41:01.Gaudi's successor, has finally achieved what he failed to do, the
:41:01. > :41:10.great Basilica now keeps the rain out. Anything that we see here,
:41:10. > :41:20.here was nothing. Only the two facades, but Gaudi has made models,
:41:20. > :41:21.
:41:21. > :41:29.so it will be possible to build exactly with complete fidelity.
:41:29. > :41:36.This is still true to his vision, Gaudi? This is completely Gaudi.
:41:36. > :41:41.This is the old city, beautiful one, this is the edge. But David Mackay
:41:41. > :41:48.begs to differ. He's a British architect based in Barcelona, who
:41:48. > :41:52.helped to transform the port area when the Olympic Games came here 20
:41:52. > :41:56.years ago, he says Gaudi's heirs have got it wrong. I admire their
:41:56. > :42:02.courage, they sustained there, going through decades to achieve
:42:02. > :42:05.what they have done and what they think is Gaudi. But it is not Gaudi.
:42:05. > :42:10.Gaudi was essentially a person concerned with structure the
:42:10. > :42:16.conlums are not vertical, they lean towards -- columns, they are not
:42:16. > :42:20.vertical, they lean towards things, that was not built in stone, but
:42:20. > :42:26.reinforced concrete, they were designed for stone. You think it is
:42:26. > :42:32.a travisty? If you are looking for Gaudi, yes. I plan to take up Mr
:42:32. > :42:36.Mackay's points about singor Bonet, first he's -- Signoir Bonet, first
:42:36. > :42:45.he's giving us a rare tour of the works. You want to go up? If you
:42:45. > :42:50.hold my hand! We're 70ms off the ground. One
:42:50. > :42:56.great central steeple still to be added, will take the full height to
:42:56. > :43:02.170ms. What about the criticism that Signoir Bonet and his
:43:02. > :43:06.colleagues might have been better off leaving the Basilica alone.
:43:06. > :43:09.Some observers go even further. There is one critic in London who
:43:09. > :43:14.says they should take a machine gun and shoot away some of the
:43:14. > :43:23.sculpture and some of the new things, what do you say? I think
:43:23. > :43:28.that we build something that the majority of our people like that we
:43:28. > :43:33.continue to do it. He told me he enjoyed mountaineering as a young
:43:33. > :43:37.man. I don't doubt it. This is not the best way. In another 30 years
:43:37. > :43:44.you may have difficulty getting up these. Even though the Sagrada
:43:44. > :43:50.Familia is finally habitable, so to speak, the work goes.
:43:50. > :43:56.The most important -- goes on. The most recently posted deadline is
:43:56. > :44:01.2026, 100 years since Gaudi's death. As long as the tourist revenue
:44:01. > :44:04.comes, Bonet will keep building, or his successors will. Is there
:44:04. > :44:11.something about the Sagrada Familia, it is an obsession for Gaudi and it
:44:11. > :44:17.seems to be an obsession for you? It is a passion and work. Not only
:44:17. > :44:21.for myself, also for the people that work, the workers. They are
:44:21. > :44:25.satisfied. All the little people down there. They look little from
:44:25. > :44:29.here. This extraordinary building will
:44:29. > :44:34.surely grow ever more familiar to visitors, even as it becomes less
:44:34. > :44:44.and less like the half finished shell left by Gaudi, its visionary
:44:44. > :44:45.
:44:45. > :44:50.creator. Tomorrow morning's papers, the
:44:50. > :44:53.Times, all the papers have the Home Office in disarray as Abu Qatada
:44:53. > :44:58.faces imminent release. This is the British judge at the enter of the
:44:58. > :45:02.case said he would reconsider releasing the radical Muslim from a
:45:02. > :45:12.top security jail, if it is obvious after two or three weeks that
:45:12. > :45:36.
:45:37. > :45:41.deportation of not imminent, he That's all from Newsnight tonight,
:45:41. > :45:47.Gavin is here tomorrow, I will be here with the review show later, we
:45:47. > :45:55.will discuss Glenn Close's new film, and the star-laden TV series, Smash.
:45:55. > :46:05.We leave you with the news that the lepblddree drummer in The Band has
:46:05. > :46:38.
:46:39. > :46:42.Hello there, showers are easing off now, but after a cool and misty
:46:42. > :46:46.start, a burst of sunshine will help trigger the showers again
:46:46. > :46:50.tomorrow, they will develop through the morning, quite extensive in the
:46:50. > :46:53.afternoon, particularly for the eastern side of the UK. Now I think
:46:53. > :46:59.Hampshire, maybe even West Sussex should see the showers turning
:46:59. > :47:03.fewer in the afternoon, elsewhere in south-east England, a more
:47:03. > :47:08.showers, heavy, thundery downpours, slow moving through the East
:47:08. > :47:11.Midlands, up into northern England. Eastleigh breeze in Scotland. A lot
:47:11. > :47:15.of cloud, the best of the sunshine will be for the west coast of
:47:15. > :47:19.Scotland, here it should be that bit dryer. Not too many showers for
:47:19. > :47:22.Northern Ireland, not too bad there today, spells of sunshine inbetween
:47:22. > :47:27.the showers. It should turn brighter across a good part of
:47:27. > :47:30.Wales, down to the Cotswolds, as we are inbetween the shower areas. It
:47:31. > :47:35.means the south west of England will be wetter than it was today.
:47:35. > :47:40.Here is how it is looking. There isn't much change from one
:47:40. > :47:42.day to the next. Particularly chilly in northern Scotland. Heavy
:47:42. > :47:46.thundery showers in Edinburgh. Those temperatures don't really
:47:46. > :47:50.change from Friday to Saturday. Disappointingly cool for the time