:00:11. > :00:14.This programme includes flash photography.
:00:14. > :00:18.Have the technocrats lost control of Europe, the French have voted
:00:18. > :00:20.against austerity, the markets are in turmoil.
:00:20. > :00:25.Six million cast their votes for the French far right. We will talk
:00:25. > :00:29.to one of its leading members. The Dutch Government has collapsed,
:00:29. > :00:34.others are in peril, where does this leave the eurozone's grand
:00:34. > :00:38.plan. In France, so influential in European politics, and incumbent
:00:38. > :00:42.President, who promised austerity, is floundering, while those who
:00:42. > :00:45.seem to say it doesn't have to be that bad, have prospered at the
:00:45. > :00:52.polls. As the economic indicators nose
:00:52. > :00:55.dive, for much of the eurozone, there is only recession ahead. The
:00:55. > :00:59.unelected law makers in the House of Lords are faced with reform
:00:59. > :01:04.again, don't hold your breath. Here are all the successful acts of
:01:04. > :01:07.parliament, if you want to seat unsuccessful attempts to reform the
:01:07. > :01:11.House of Lords, you would need a room twice as big.
:01:11. > :01:20.We have the minister responsible for this can of worms, and the peer
:01:20. > :01:27.who formerly led the liberals. Also: a mass murderer on prime time
:01:28. > :01:34.TV, are the Norwegians right to let Breivik rule the airways, we ask if
:01:34. > :01:41.Scandinavian liberalism is the way ahead.
:01:41. > :01:47.Good evening, like a good old fashioned horror film, the eurozone
:01:47. > :01:53.blockbusters get bigger and brasher. On the eve of the French election
:01:53. > :01:56.results put a man who doesn't believe in austerity in the lead.
:01:56. > :02:01.Six million voters voted for the far right.
:02:01. > :02:04.The Dutch Government has resigned, the Czech Government is in peril
:02:05. > :02:09.too, is this the end of the centre right dominance in Europe, where
:02:09. > :02:14.does it leave hopes of a UK recovery.
:02:14. > :02:17.If Nicolas Sarkozy was just running on his record, his task would be
:02:17. > :02:23.difficult enough. Millions of French people blame him for what
:02:23. > :02:27.they call the bling-style of presidency, for fail to go protect
:02:27. > :02:32.jobs, and running huge public sector deficits. Of course, it is
:02:32. > :02:35.the future he appears to promise, by signingp to that fiscal EU
:02:35. > :02:39.budget deal, which limits the way Governments can spend money, and
:02:39. > :02:42.puts all sorts of sanctions in place, that is his real political
:02:42. > :02:45.problem now. The other key candidates in this election seem to
:02:45. > :02:50.be promising the people it really doesn't have to be that way. And
:02:50. > :03:00.over the past 24 hours, we have seen, that a big majority of the
:03:00. > :03:04.electorate seems to buy that argument.
:03:04. > :03:08.Extreme politics and extreme weather, an incumbent President
:03:08. > :03:13.seems to be swept away, and some ideas about France's position in
:03:13. > :03:19.Europe with him. After the polls closed on the first round of voting,
:03:19. > :03:22.crowds of supporters gathered at Socialist Party headquarters. Their
:03:22. > :03:29.leaders' predict they will win, and recast the European debate about
:03:29. > :03:36.how to beat recession, and mass unemployment.
:03:36. > :03:41.The vote and the majority of the people want a new economic dynamic
:03:41. > :03:47.created in Europe, especially in France. It is sure. We don't accept
:03:47. > :03:57.this situation, concerning industry, concerning salaries, concerning
:03:57. > :03:59.
:03:59. > :04:07.employment. We have to change. They extol the country's
:04:07. > :04:12.revolutionary ideals and the struggle for social justice.
:04:12. > :04:16.Facing the choice of Government cups, or deeper economic pain, the
:04:16. > :04:20.French have voted for neither of the above. Each candidate has a
:04:20. > :04:24.different formula of how exactly the country should now push ahead,
:04:24. > :04:34.and the results, when they came in the early hours, showed opinion
:04:34. > :04:39.
:04:39. > :04:45.polarised. Francois Hollande, the socialist
:04:45. > :04:55.won with 28.6%, Nicolas Sarkozy came second with 267.2%, Marine Le
:04:55. > :05:06.
:05:06. > :05:11.Hollande and Melenchon essentially believe in borrowing their way out
:05:11. > :05:16.of recession, Le Pen, in leaving the euro, Monsieur Sarkozy
:05:16. > :05:19.campaigned for following the EU's new rules, but suffered for it.
:05:19. > :05:24.So the result service notice to Brussels, Berlin, Europe more
:05:25. > :05:28.widely, that the system of political management, Merkozy,
:05:28. > :05:32.Franco German domination of the politics of the eurozone, and
:05:32. > :05:39.indeed their ideas on austerity, may all be on borrowed time.
:05:39. > :05:43.But, of course, the socialist activists here, at Monsieur
:05:43. > :05:49.Hollande's headquarters, are not taking victory for qant granted,
:05:49. > :05:55.they are setting out to win that second round decisively. Today the
:05:55. > :06:00.socialist leader was in Brittany, fighting on what is a now two-horse
:06:00. > :06:05.race with the President. The socialists did well in this
:06:05. > :06:11.region, but so did the National Front. Now madame Le Pen south of
:06:11. > :06:19.the race, he's trying to get some of her votes.
:06:19. > :06:23.TRANSLATION: If I become the next president, I will continue to do
:06:23. > :06:26.what I do now, to come and talk to you and listen, because you have
:06:26. > :06:29.given me important messages, on work, school and health.
:06:29. > :06:33.Mr Sarkozy returned to the stump today as well, having suffered the
:06:33. > :06:41.shame of being the first incumbent President to lose the first round
:06:41. > :06:45.of IRA election campaign -- a re- election campaign. Is his prestige
:06:45. > :06:48.fatally damaged, he's moving right wards, also trying to get National
:06:48. > :06:52.Front votes, but Marine Le Pen is not in the mood to do him any
:06:52. > :06:55.favours. TRANSLATION: I no longer believe in what Nicolas Sarkozy
:06:55. > :06:59.says. There is many voters who trusted me and showed dignity and
:06:59. > :07:04.strength in voting for me, they also don't believe in his postures
:07:04. > :07:12.and his promises. So will Le Pen's voters now go to the centre right,
:07:12. > :07:16.and Sarkozy? It doesn't usually poll voters to go for the right,
:07:16. > :07:22.they don't make any suggestions, or they call for abstention, it is
:07:22. > :07:26.likely they will do the same again. Which means that the electorate
:07:26. > :07:31.will probably go maybe up to half to Sarkozy, maybe less than that,
:07:31. > :07:36.and then spread between abstention and Hollande. You have to remember
:07:36. > :07:40.that theers of the National Front are usually not liking Sarkozy.
:07:40. > :07:45.There is a strong position. But also a number of them are strongly
:07:45. > :07:49.disappointed by Sarkozy. Hoping to find some suitably right-
:07:49. > :07:53.wing cabbies, we dropped in at this taxi haunt, but found them in
:07:53. > :08:01.moderate mood, wanting to vote for the man they expected to do more to
:08:01. > :08:04.protect the economy. TRANSLATION: I haven't decided how
:08:04. > :08:10.to vote, I will wait and see what they both propose over the next two
:08:10. > :08:15.weeks. TRANSLATION: I'm anti-Sarkozy, I'm
:08:15. > :08:20.voting Hollande. I think he will bring a new flair to the country, a
:08:20. > :08:24.change for the French people. Mr Sarkozy is stepping up his
:08:24. > :08:27.campaign messages, on themes like immigration, the control of
:08:27. > :08:33.national borders, things he hopes will gain him those far right
:08:33. > :08:37.voters. But will it be enough to close the gap with Monsieur
:08:37. > :08:42.Hollande? Almost nobody outside the President's campaign thinks it will.
:08:42. > :08:48.The socialist has an advantage of 10% in the polls, even 12% in some.
:08:48. > :08:51.And there is a view that means he cannot be beaten at this stage of
:08:52. > :08:55.the election. There has been plenty of negative
:08:55. > :08:58.campaigning already, and it could easily become nastier during the
:08:58. > :09:04.second round. If the left, as expected, wins, it will have to
:09:04. > :09:08.live with a newly-empowered far right, that represents positions on
:09:08. > :09:14.immigration or Europe that have, up to now, been kept out of the
:09:14. > :09:24.mainstream by the French political elite.
:09:24. > :09:26.
:09:26. > :09:30.I have been speaking to a member of the Front Nationial. Why did six
:09:30. > :09:37.million French people vote for your party? I think they have come to
:09:37. > :09:43.realise that not only did we put forward the good questions, as even
:09:44. > :09:47.a former socialist Prime Minister recognised, Mr Laurent Fabius, but
:09:47. > :09:53.that we also got the good answers to these questions. The what was
:09:53. > :10:01.that, was it rejection of the euro, was it rejection of immigration?
:10:01. > :10:07.I think it is rejection of what you could call the decadence of France,
:10:07. > :10:15.but not only France but maybe also of some other countries in western
:10:15. > :10:20.Europe. That is a loss of independence, declining of the
:10:20. > :10:30.identity, given the massive immigration policies, that is for
:10:30. > :10:30.
:10:30. > :10:34.sure. Also because of globalism, that unemployment is increasing,
:10:34. > :10:38.jobs going elsewhere. You have split the vote on the right, do you
:10:38. > :10:43.really prefer to see President Hollande instead of President
:10:43. > :10:48.Sarkozy? We did consider that the called progressives didn't bring
:10:48. > :10:53.any progress, and the called Conservatives did not conserve
:10:53. > :10:56.anything of our inheritance, cultural, political, economic
:10:56. > :11:01.inheritance. That is why we disagree with both. What should
:11:01. > :11:09.your voters do on the 6th of May in the second round? I think they will
:11:09. > :11:15.listen to what Marine Le Pen will say, on May 1st. But I doubt, very
:11:15. > :11:20.frankly speaking, that you will ask our people to vote either for Mr
:11:20. > :11:28.Sarkozy nor for Mr Hollande. What will be, then, the relationship now
:11:28. > :11:32.between your country, France, and Germany? We will have to be
:11:32. > :11:37.independent. I have, we have nothing against Germany, and we are
:11:37. > :11:45.happy to have at least a peaceful relationship with Germany, but I
:11:45. > :11:52.think the interests of Germany are not necessarily our's. I don't know
:11:52. > :11:57.if the economic or financial policy of the strong mark may be that it
:11:57. > :12:02.fits German interests. Mr Gollnisch, in 2007, you yourself
:12:02. > :12:07.were convicted for contesting the existence of gas chambers and the
:12:07. > :12:15.number of deaths in the Holocaust, can you see why the world is uneasy
:12:15. > :12:22.with your party? Sorry, you are completely mistaken. The Supreme
:12:22. > :12:27.Court of my country, the 11 judges stated very clearly that I was
:12:27. > :12:33.completely innocent. They wiped out all accusations against me, and
:12:33. > :12:37.they stated very clearly that I had been prosecuted on the basis of a
:12:37. > :12:41.forgery. Thank you very much indeed. You are welcome.
:12:41. > :12:45.Paul Mason, our economics editor, is here with me now.
:12:45. > :12:48.It looks like there is more political crisis coming from the
:12:48. > :12:52.Netherlands tonight, prompted by Europe. Where are we going with
:12:52. > :12:56.this? We have to roll back the film a bit, to last December. When they
:12:56. > :13:01.came up with the plan to save Europe. And part of it was pumping
:13:01. > :13:06.money in from the Central Bank, and part of it was this new treaty, the
:13:06. > :13:10.one that Cameron, remember, vetoed, they had to do it as a separate
:13:10. > :13:15.treaty, it says no more discretionary fiscal stimulus,
:13:15. > :13:19.instant austerity. We have the basic of it here. 06% of GDP debt
:13:19. > :13:23.limit, they have to impose that. They have to stick by the old
:13:23. > :13:28.Maastricht rules, and make them tighter. Essentially you can't do
:13:28. > :13:33.fiscal stimulus, the structural deficit can never be more than 0.5%
:13:33. > :13:40.of GDP. You can't do what Obama, and Alastair Darling did,
:13:40. > :13:44.stimulating the economy. Hollande said he would renegotiate that, if
:13:44. > :13:48.he win. He then rolled back from it saying he would make additions to
:13:48. > :13:52.it. Tonight the Dutch Government has fallen because it tried to
:13:52. > :13:55.implement this by 2014, they all are. And the far right there,
:13:55. > :13:57.supporting the Conservative-led Government, pulled out of the
:13:57. > :14:01.Government, because they wouldn't make social security cuts. So the
:14:02. > :14:06.whole thing is now a mess, the Czech Government, also, teetering,
:14:06. > :14:11.on the whole brink of trying to to this. But it is a dead letter, it
:14:11. > :14:14.is something the Germans will very quickly, as the markets already
:14:14. > :14:17.have, have to get their heads around. If you separate out the
:14:17. > :14:21.politics for a second, real concerns about the economy itself
:14:21. > :14:26.now? The eurozone shrank in the last three months of last year. We
:14:26. > :14:34.think it has probble shrunk in the first three months of this year,
:14:34. > :14:39.today's statistic tis -- statistics say it is probably shrinking in the
:14:39. > :14:44.second quarter. We are looking at a whole year's worth of stagnation
:14:44. > :14:47.and recession in the eurozone. The Spanish Central Bank confirmed it
:14:47. > :14:52.is officially in recession. In the face of it, what does Hollande
:14:52. > :14:57.stand for? Hollande stands for spending more, he stands for taxing
:14:57. > :15:01.people more. He has promised to balance the books, but later, to do
:15:01. > :15:05.the austerity later. It is the he wants to balance the books, which
:15:05. > :15:08.completely flies in the face of the way most of the financial markets
:15:08. > :15:12.and bankers want, which is austerity. Where next? The Greek
:15:12. > :15:19.elections, 6th of May, on the current standing the combined votes
:15:19. > :15:27.of the elive lent of Labour and the Tories, are 36% in the polls, and
:15:27. > :15:29.the communists and Trotskyists are 36%, we will be talking about a
:15:29. > :15:33.different extreme in European politics there.
:15:33. > :15:37.How do the rest of Europe feel about the French result, they don't
:15:37. > :15:41.claim to be a representative cross section, we have brought together,
:15:41. > :15:47.Peter Altmaier, Angela Merkel's Chief Whip from Berlin, Nigel
:15:47. > :15:53.Farage, leader of UKIP, and Keith Mangan, senior leader of the bank
:15:53. > :15:56.UBS. How big a moment do you believe this is? It is quite
:15:56. > :16:02.significant. Your package has clearly explored the way in which
:16:02. > :16:05.the votes have split about almost a third of French voters went more
:16:05. > :16:08.parties of the more extreme left and right. So the battling over
:16:08. > :16:12.these votes, particularly for the National Front parties' votes, I
:16:12. > :16:19.think, will drive the French political debate towards an even
:16:19. > :16:22.stronger tone of nationalism, and anti-austerity. This is quite
:16:22. > :16:27.destablising. I'm not saying this will cause an imminent eruption in
:16:28. > :16:33.Europe, but it is certainly detablising against an already very
:16:33. > :16:38.unstable economic backdrop. Peter Altmaier, clearly it isn't in
:16:38. > :16:44.the bag for Francois Hollande, but how much do you think would change
:16:44. > :16:48.under his presidency, relations with Germany? First of all the
:16:48. > :16:55.presidential race is far from being over. Nicolas Sarkozy is a fighter
:16:55. > :17:02.and he will fight on. But even if the outcome of the second tour
:17:02. > :17:08.would be different I suppose that, at the end of the day, I cannot see
:17:08. > :17:15.any working functioning alternative to what was decided by the European
:17:16. > :17:19.Summit in November, as soon as Mr Would start spending more,
:17:19. > :17:24.disregarding the principles, he would be punished by the financial
:17:24. > :17:29.markets. Therefore, I'm quite optimistic that after a while we
:17:29. > :17:34.can continue in consolidating, instead of making and allowing more
:17:34. > :17:39.public deficit than we can pay back. Let me get this straight, would you
:17:39. > :17:46.be scared of an Hollande presidency, or do you think it would end up
:17:46. > :17:51.being exactly the same? Well, first of all, as a Christian democrat, I
:17:51. > :17:54.would be very much in favour of a winning of Mr Sarkozy, but if Mr
:17:54. > :17:59.Hollande, at the end of the day, would become the new French
:17:59. > :18:05.President, it wouldn't change, of course, fundamentally the Franco
:18:05. > :18:10.German relationship, this has worked independently of all
:18:10. > :18:15.political constellations. Secondly, it is quite clear the Fiscal
:18:15. > :18:20.Compact cannot be changed, retro actively, it is under way for
:18:20. > :18:25.ratificaton in many member states. And so, perhaps we will have some
:18:25. > :18:29.debates, internally, in France, but I cannot see the risk of any major
:18:29. > :18:34.change in European economic politics.
:18:34. > :18:38.We will come back to that, Nigel Farage, when you look at the French
:18:38. > :18:42.political scene, as it stands today. When you see the National Front in
:18:42. > :18:47.France doing well. What do you think? I think Marine Le Pen has
:18:47. > :18:55.tried to change the National Front, and take it away from debating race,
:18:55. > :18:58.and take it away from this awful anti-semitism that seemed to
:18:58. > :19:03.permeate it. She has been campaigning on the fact that she
:19:03. > :19:07.wants France to leave the euro. She has a sneaking admiration among
:19:07. > :19:11.many Conservative figures in France. If Hollande does win, two things
:19:11. > :19:16.happen, firstly, the huge competitive gap between France and
:19:16. > :19:20.Germany gets wider, and in fact, the debate about the future of the
:19:20. > :19:25.euro won't be between Germany versus Greece, it will be Germany
:19:25. > :19:28.versus France. Secondly, she will be the ability, if Sarkozy loses,
:19:28. > :19:34.to completely reconfigure Conservative politics in France.
:19:34. > :19:37.you think she has shred the party of the Zen know phobic image, do
:19:37. > :19:43.you see her as a kindred spirit? don't think the National Front can
:19:43. > :19:47.get rid of that horrible, anti- semetic, deeply racist past, I do
:19:47. > :19:51.know from skrfr friends of mine in France, that if -- Conservative
:19:51. > :19:54.friends of mine in France, if she was to leave the National Front,
:19:54. > :20:00.and set up a new party in the wake of the Sarkozy loss, then you would
:20:00. > :20:04.find a real, genuine, big euro- sceptic party, in France. The
:20:04. > :20:09.Franco German pact is what has kept this whole thing together. I think
:20:09. > :20:16.really for the euro and for the European project, the game is up.
:20:16. > :20:20.When she talks about, as the speaker earlier did, about loss of
:20:20. > :20:24.identity, those being the things that people voted for them, those
:20:24. > :20:28.are issues close to your heart? Very close. I don't support the
:20:28. > :20:33.National Front, or her father, or Bruno Gollnisch, and I never have,
:20:33. > :20:37.I know what she tried to do, and she said so herself, is to take the
:20:37. > :20:41.National Front from being the BNP and turning it into UKIP. She has
:20:41. > :20:45.said that herself. I admire what she has tried to do, I think she's
:20:45. > :20:52.a bigger front than the National Front, and if she breaks away from
:20:52. > :20:59.it and has a genuine, non-sectarian, non-racist party in France, I will
:20:59. > :21:02.cheer to the rafters. If Hollande, George Magnus, wants to leave
:21:02. > :21:05.austerity behind, as you suggested, could it be that France alliance
:21:05. > :21:09.itself much more closely with southern Europe, with those
:21:09. > :21:13.neighbours like Spain and Italy, who have rejected it? I'm not quite
:21:13. > :21:18.sure which way the cause and effect works, my understanding, certainly,
:21:18. > :21:22.is that a lot of politicians in Italy, Portugal, Spain, Greece,
:21:22. > :21:28.elsewhere, actually who have been willing an Hollande victory,
:21:28. > :21:33.because his victory could act as a lightning rod, for this general
:21:33. > :21:39.disaffection with the politics of austerity. I mean, that in itself
:21:39. > :21:45.is a different issue. It's possible that Hollande could articulate that
:21:45. > :21:49.view on behalf of more and more European countries, in what clearly
:21:49. > :21:53.might leave Germany a little bit isolated now, particularly with the
:21:53. > :22:01.Dutch Government having fallen. is very difficult that, you might
:22:01. > :22:03.have been living in cuckoo hand, talking about austerity as if --
:22:03. > :22:07.cuckoo land, talking about austerity as if it is the only way,
:22:07. > :22:09.and the people around Europe are saying no to it? It was clear from
:22:09. > :22:15.the beginning this was a very difficult process indeed. But my
:22:15. > :22:21.impression is to the contrary, the new Governments in Italy and Spain
:22:21. > :22:23.and Portugal have made the basic choice in favour of reforming of
:22:23. > :22:27.regaining competitiveity, of restructuring the country, of
:22:27. > :22:31.bringing down the deficit. What do you make of the Dutch and the
:22:32. > :22:36.Czechs tonight? Well, if Mr Hollande would change, would try to
:22:36. > :22:45.change that strategy, I cannot see how this could work, already today
:22:45. > :22:49.all the money is flooding back to Germany, we have spreads where
:22:49. > :22:58.Germany can borrow for 1.6% for ten years, the money it needs, other
:22:58. > :23:00.countries have to pay up to 4% more. This is an indication of trust of
:23:00. > :23:06.financial markets. You cannot survive without the trust of the
:23:06. > :23:08.financial markets. I think this sort of dysfunction in European
:23:08. > :23:13.financial markets is very much about the fact that the markets
:23:13. > :23:16.actually, they are not willing austerity in other countries. That
:23:16. > :23:22.may have been the case a year or two in Greece, but actually they
:23:22. > :23:25.are frightened by what austerity will lead to in terms of the
:23:25. > :23:31.viability and the stability of political systems. So I think you
:23:31. > :23:34.know, what Hollande, if Hollande is elected, I'm not sure it is much
:23:34. > :23:39.better under Sarkozy, but if Hollande actually becomes the
:23:39. > :23:43.President, that is why I feel he may well feel with momentum behind
:23:43. > :23:50.him that this is a moment, to basically launch, as it were, an
:23:50. > :23:54.anti-austerity alliance in Europe. If there was an anti-euro alliance,
:23:54. > :24:00.you would cheer it to the rafters, what would Europe look like with
:24:00. > :24:04.Marine Le Pen around the table, with others, if the euro collapsed
:24:04. > :24:08.and your dream came true, it would be a mess? Let's think of a Europe
:24:08. > :24:12.with democratic nation states not being dominated by German economic
:24:12. > :24:16.policy, or unelected bureaucrats based in Brussels. We could trade
:24:16. > :24:19.together, we could co-operate together, we could have mutual
:24:20. > :24:23.deals and our workers moving around countries and our students on
:24:23. > :24:28.exchanges, we would get back our democracy, independence, pride and
:24:28. > :24:32.self-respect. It is going to happen, I'm certain of it, this model is
:24:32. > :24:37.being reject. Mr Altmaier can say what he likes, people do not want
:24:37. > :24:42.to live under German-dominated austerity. We are seeing a
:24:42. > :24:47.democratic rebellion across Europe. Nobody is dominating Europe, but
:24:47. > :24:54.the consensus of 27 sovereign states. All these states, except
:24:54. > :24:58.the UK and the Czech Republic, have agreed on the fiscal package. The
:24:58. > :25:02.far left and far right have been defeated in the elections, it is
:25:02. > :25:08.now a battle between centre left and centre right. I'm convinced
:25:08. > :25:12.this will go on and succeed. They are yelling in my ear now, we
:25:12. > :25:19.must leave it. When it comes to the House of Lords,
:25:19. > :25:22.Britain finds itself in the esteem country of Kazakhstan and one other
:25:22. > :25:29.country, the only place where the second chamber is bigger than the
:25:29. > :25:36.first. Today it was recommended the House of Lords be elected by a --
:25:36. > :25:41.be replaced by a elected body. Some Lib Dem MPs will vote against
:25:41. > :25:45.their leader's plans for reform. George V on his way to open
:25:45. > :25:48.parliament in 2010, much has changed, but much is still the same.
:25:49. > :25:53.The Government then was heading for a showdown with the Lords, it was
:25:53. > :25:55.determined to reform the Upper House. On its way to its promised
:25:55. > :26:00.abolition of the Lords, the then Government put through the
:26:00. > :26:10.parliament Act of 1911, to establish, in law, the primacy of
:26:10. > :26:20.
:26:20. > :26:24.the Commons. But only, you And boy were they not kidding on
:26:25. > :26:29.that one. In the 100 years or so since the parliament Act was signed,
:26:29. > :26:33.and this is the original, held in the Parliamentary Archive, there
:26:33. > :26:36.have been numerous attempts to reform the Upper House. Where they
:26:36. > :26:40.have been successful, they have generally been about excluding
:26:40. > :26:44.people from sitting in the Lords. The last Labour Government got rid
:26:44. > :26:49.of the vast majority of hereditary peers, and shipped the Law Lords
:26:49. > :26:52.off to sit in their own Supreme Court. A far trickyier, and
:26:52. > :26:58.impossible question to answer satisfactorily, is who should sit
:26:58. > :27:01.in the Lords, and how should they be selected. One of the issues is
:27:01. > :27:05.it is will legislating about parliament itself. Every single
:27:05. > :27:09.member of parliament, in both houses, 1400 people, think they are
:27:09. > :27:12.an expert in the subject and they all have their own opinion. As if
:27:12. > :27:17.to illustrate the point, today of the day the joint committee, made
:27:17. > :27:21.up of MPs and peers, was supposed to publish its recommendations. It
:27:21. > :27:24.did, but at the same time. people are entitled to a say.
:27:24. > :27:31.minority group of the committee, published their own report,
:27:31. > :27:34.disagreeing with the first lot. The issue that d divided the committees,
:27:34. > :27:37.divided many parliamentarians, should members of a reformed Upper
:27:37. > :27:42.House be elected or not. At the moment the country understands very
:27:42. > :27:46.clearly that we go to an election with a manifesto, whatever party
:27:46. > :27:50.you vote for can come to this place and legislation a dlifrb its
:27:50. > :27:56.legislative programme, very clearly. -- deliver its legislative
:27:56. > :27:59.programme, very clearly. The moment you have a mandate from the people,
:27:59. > :28:02.they will ask why do you have primacy.
:28:02. > :28:05.However used to getting their way the Lords might be in their day
:28:05. > :28:08.jobs, they have to accept that the Commons is the boss when it comes
:28:08. > :28:11.to making laws. The Government and majority committee report both say
:28:11. > :28:15.electing peers won't change this. Indeed, the Government and the
:28:15. > :28:19.committee have come up with remarkably similar proposals.
:28:19. > :28:25.There is a difference in the numbers involved, the Government
:28:25. > :28:30.wanted 300 members of the new Upper House, the point committee 450, but
:28:30. > :28:34.both propose 80% should be elected, the rest nominated, and include 12
:28:34. > :28:37.bishops, both proposed that an elected member should serve a non-
:28:37. > :28:41.renewable term of up to 15 years, and both that the elections should
:28:41. > :28:45.be held under a single transferable vote, and should coincide with
:28:45. > :28:49.elections to the Commons. But, today's report recommends a
:28:49. > :28:54.referendum, before the changes become law. I don't think a
:28:55. > :29:00.referendum is strictlinessry, because this change to --
:29:00. > :29:04.strictlinessry, because this was in -- strictly necessary, because this
:29:04. > :29:10.was in every manifesto. We should take it seriously and it should be
:29:10. > :29:13.debated and discussed, I can see arguments against it, but I'm happy
:29:13. > :29:17.to listen and consider. The Deputy Prime Minister, emphatically, does
:29:17. > :29:21.not want a referendum? It is something we have been talking
:29:21. > :29:26.about for 100 years and we need to get on with it for minimum fuss.
:29:26. > :29:29.One thing that hasn't changed since 1911 and the Parliament Act, then
:29:29. > :29:34.it was a liberal Government pushing reform, today it is Liberal
:29:34. > :29:39.Democrats in Government pushing for reform. Their coalition pearer ins
:29:39. > :29:43.are far less enthuse aix, in some cases openly hostile to what Nick
:29:43. > :29:48.Clegg is proposing. Some believe this issue, far more than health
:29:48. > :29:52.and deficit reduction, has the capacity to rip the coalition apart.
:29:52. > :29:55.Indeed, some Lib Dems suggest that if the Conservatives don't back
:29:55. > :29:59.Lords reform, without a referendum, well, they won't vote through the
:29:59. > :30:07.reduction in parliamentary seats that would, or should, favour the
:30:07. > :30:10.Conservatives. We have had one referendum that proved disastrous
:30:10. > :30:14.results, from a coalition point of view, we don't need another.
:30:14. > :30:20.Another one would put a strain on the coalition? It would put a great
:30:20. > :30:25.strain on the coalition, and if we don't vote through the
:30:25. > :30:27.redistribution, and equally great strange on the coalition, if the
:30:27. > :30:31.Conservatives don't stick to the coalition agreement and vote
:30:31. > :30:35.through Lords reform. I think David Cameron, although he may wish it
:30:35. > :30:39.otherwise, has no choice but put it into the Queen's Speech, because it
:30:39. > :30:44.is part of the coalition deal. The bill will be introduced, but
:30:44. > :30:48.subject to hundreds of amendments on the floor of the House of
:30:48. > :30:53.Commons t will take weeks there. I think the likeliest thing is that
:30:53. > :30:58.the bill will be withdrawn. Predicting failure for Lords reform,
:30:58. > :31:02.has been a pretty God bet over the last century. It combines three
:31:02. > :31:05.factors that make inertia likely. The politicians are split. None of
:31:05. > :31:12.the solutions comes without potential problems, and, according
:31:12. > :31:18.to opinion poll, the public don't really care one way or the other.
:31:18. > :31:22.Is it right to prioritise reform at that time of such vulnerability.
:31:22. > :31:31.What will be the knock-on effect for the House of Commons.
:31:31. > :31:37.The man the Huffington Post said one day could be party leader, and
:31:37. > :31:41.-- Mark Harper. The Prime Minister and his
:31:41. > :31:45.colleagues were called posh people who don't understand ordinary
:31:45. > :31:49.people, how will reforming the Lords dispel that image? The Prime
:31:49. > :31:52.Minister made it clear this morning, the Government's priority is still
:31:52. > :31:56.reducing the deficit, economic growth and jobs for hard working
:31:56. > :32:00.families in the country. It is absolutely possible for the
:32:00. > :32:05.Government to do more than one thing at a time. Even though the
:32:05. > :32:08.public don't care about it? If you knock on somebody's door, they
:32:08. > :32:14.won't ask you about it. If you ask the public if they think somebody
:32:14. > :32:18.who makes the laws should be picking by them as opposed to
:32:18. > :32:23.leaders of the political parties, overwhelmingly they say yes, the
:32:23. > :32:28.public should pick emthis. It might be a subject they don't care about
:32:28. > :32:32.much, but they agree with what the Government is doing, and electing
:32:32. > :32:37.80% of the House of Lords is part of that. How do you begin to
:32:37. > :32:42.explain to people why an unelected man like yourself, spend a day
:32:42. > :32:45.longer making laws for the country? I don't at all. To return to the
:32:45. > :32:50.basic question, our two parties came together in a coalition to put
:32:50. > :32:53.the financial situation in the country right. We are being
:32:53. > :32:57.constantly side tracked on to things like the AV referendum, the
:32:57. > :33:03.National Health Service Bill and now this. It simply is distracting
:33:03. > :33:06.from what is the main issue. It has always been distracting, and has
:33:06. > :33:09.been more 100 years t doesn't put something that is undemocratic
:33:09. > :33:13.right? You are wrong about that, there has been steady improvements
:33:13. > :33:17.and changes over that 100 years, and more are now needed.
:33:17. > :33:20.elections? I think there is a very interesting new report out today
:33:20. > :33:25.from the Conservative lawyers, saying there should be instrict
:33:25. > :33:28.elections. This report itself, to my -- indirect elections. This
:33:28. > :33:30.report itself, to my surprise, says the committee has recommended, that
:33:30. > :33:34.the committee would like the Government to give further
:33:34. > :33:38.consideration to a nationally indirectly elected House. That
:33:38. > :33:41.would have the advantage of not setting autopsy competition between
:33:41. > :33:46.the two houses, there would be no popular mandate from the Upper
:33:46. > :33:52.House. Would it matter if the Lords did become more powerful than the
:33:52. > :33:55.Commons, if they were both essentially elected bodies, fairly
:33:55. > :34:00.representing our countries, would it matter? The point we have made
:34:00. > :34:02.is this, the relationship between the two houses will change if the
:34:02. > :34:07.Lords is elected. The Parliament Act means that the Commons can
:34:07. > :34:11.always get its own way. My own view is actually if we strengthen
:34:11. > :34:18.parliament, I think strengthening the laws will strengthen parliament.
:34:18. > :34:21.If ministers have to work harder to persuade parliament as a whole to
:34:21. > :34:25.pass legislation, I think that is a good thing. If you made things
:34:25. > :34:29.better by the number of bills you passed, the last Labour Government
:34:29. > :34:35.would be more successful. Even if they are in competition with each
:34:35. > :34:38.other? The Commons will always get its own way, and that is right,
:34:38. > :34:43.they determine what governs the country, ultimately is controls the
:34:43. > :34:46.budget and the money. I think a stronger House of Lords would be a
:34:46. > :34:49.good thing. The committee itself has said that the House of Lords
:34:49. > :34:52.will have more power, and that will be a threat to the Commons. That is
:34:52. > :34:55.what your colleagues in the Commons are worried about. The committee
:34:55. > :35:00.says the things in place to ensure the primacy of the Commons, the
:35:00. > :35:04.Parliament Act, all the underpinning. They say class two is
:35:04. > :35:07.a waste of time? They say to look he at the drafting of the bill, and
:35:07. > :35:10.we will. The things that guarantee the primacy of the Commons, the
:35:10. > :35:13.committee thinks that is solid, and that will guarantee the primacy of
:35:13. > :35:16.the Commons going forward. You made the point that the coalition
:35:16. > :35:22.parties came together to sort out the deficit in the economic crisis,
:35:22. > :35:26.why is your leader prior yietsing this now then? I think Nick has had
:35:26. > :35:30.a consistent view, he thinks the House of Lords should be wholly
:35:30. > :35:34.elected. It doesn't go into the detail of how the House of Lords
:35:34. > :35:39.works. Are we seriously going to have Members of Parliament, with
:35:39. > :35:44.senators, presumptionably they will be called senators, not Lords, for
:35:44. > :35:47.15 years marching around their constituents, saying we have a
:35:47. > :35:53.mandate too. That is why the House of Commons is saying do we want
:35:53. > :35:57.this and the cost of it. If the public has to vote, the referendum
:35:57. > :36:06.will put the kie Bosch on it, people won't vote for something
:36:06. > :36:13.that is 400 unelected Lords. The mass murder on trial in Norway
:36:13. > :36:17.has been given rock star attention and prime time television time. The
:36:17. > :36:21.man accused of shooting 70 people, many teenagers, has been discussed
:36:21. > :36:24.and dissects as merely a point view. The approach to the trial of Anders
:36:24. > :36:27.Behring Breivik, whose evidence ended today, is perhaps
:36:27. > :36:32.unsurprising in such a liberal society in nor way. But is it the
:36:32. > :36:36.right one? To many, the courtroom scene is
:36:36. > :36:42.beyond the grotesque, the evidence certainly far worse than gruesome.
:36:42. > :36:50.A mass murderer, whose only regret at killing 77, is it was 500 short
:36:50. > :36:54.of the number of victims he wanted. With his fascist salute and bovine
:36:54. > :37:01.smirk, spent a decade in his room dreaming up an audience like that.
:37:01. > :37:09.That was his plan, to use this explosion, and the massacre at
:37:09. > :37:13.Utoeya, to give him a time in court that should be his stage, his way
:37:13. > :37:18.of propaganda for his case. In one way you could say the more he
:37:18. > :37:22.speaks, the fewer followers he will have. There are many thinking this
:37:22. > :37:26.is too much. Yet even some of those who escaped
:37:26. > :37:32.the horror of the island of Utoeya, whose friends were killed, even
:37:32. > :37:39.they endorsed the process. I think it is good to see him now, when he
:37:39. > :37:44.is surrounded by police, and in a safe place.
:37:44. > :37:48.It gives a little closure. What is striking is the courtliness
:37:48. > :37:54.of the courtroom, the way the prosecutors lined up to shake the
:37:54. > :38:00.killer's hand, before listening to his long and detailed account.
:38:00. > :38:06.He wanted to behead the former Prime Minister, leaving the island.
:38:06. > :38:10.He was explaining why he even killed those under 16 years,
:38:10. > :38:15.because they also were a part of the brain-washing camp of the
:38:15. > :38:21.Labour Party. He had so many things to explain, and it is important for
:38:21. > :38:25.the court, to decide if he's insane or not. Is there not concern that
:38:25. > :38:32.he is getting the platform which he said was his reason for committing
:38:32. > :38:37.the crimes in the first place? we are dealing with here now is a
:38:37. > :38:43.dilemma. How to get the information from the man, that has committed
:38:43. > :38:48.this horrendous crime, and the ideas about it, how long does it
:38:48. > :38:53.take. The court in Oslo says it will take five days. What he means
:38:53. > :38:57.is Norway's court system might be described as liberal, but it isn't
:38:57. > :39:02.niave, they have limited Breivik's statement to five days, in a trial
:39:02. > :39:07.lasting 12 weeks. What's more the cameras have been banned for the
:39:08. > :39:14.statement, they are determined that clips won't bounce around YouTube
:39:14. > :39:17.for all eternity. The world's media have been following the case, news
:39:17. > :39:23.channels filled with hours of the trial, and they will return if they
:39:23. > :39:28.are allowed back in. For Norway this is unusual. They welcomed the
:39:28. > :39:33.cameras because this is a national tragedy, and the nation needs
:39:33. > :39:36.catharsis. They heard Breivik's voice and his justification of the
:39:36. > :39:42.unjustifyable initial low. TRANSLATION: I acknowledge the acts,
:39:42. > :39:46.but I do not plead guilty, I will claim was doing it in self-defence.
:39:46. > :39:53.Elsewhere in Europe judges give short shrift to defendants using a
:39:53. > :39:59.court for a political platform. In the US, the alleged architect of
:39:59. > :40:05.9/11, Khalid Sheikh Mohammed, goesen to trial next month, before
:40:05. > :40:10.a military tribunal, where his rights are limbed so he won't use
:40:10. > :40:15.it. The Scandinavians are growing weary of Anders Behring Breivik.
:40:15. > :40:24.think we will see his photo on the front page another week or two. But
:40:24. > :40:31.then I think the appeals from the victims of going to the supermarket
:40:31. > :40:39.without seeing his face on the front pages, can we be free of that,
:40:39. > :40:46.and I think the newspapers will do Brian Friedman, a Guardian writer
:40:46. > :40:50.and author of political thrillers human rights lawyer.
:40:50. > :40:54.I'm wondering if you buy the argument that a nation in grief
:40:54. > :40:58.needs the catharsis that comes with seeing a trial like this? It is
:40:58. > :41:01.hard to speak against the survivors of the attack that say it helps
:41:01. > :41:04.them. That is not the main reason, Norway feels it is their legal
:41:04. > :41:09.system, and they don't want to change it just because of him. They
:41:09. > :41:14.want to plof the system is robust enough, -- prove it is robust
:41:14. > :41:18.enough and they can cope with it. There is an immediate dimension to
:41:18. > :41:22.this, let's say the courts are right to remain open and stick to
:41:22. > :41:26.their principles, it doesn't make it right for the media in Norway
:41:26. > :41:31.and the world, to hand this man a megaphone, to treat his statement
:41:31. > :41:35.as if it is a familiar flet written for a think-tank and people arguing
:41:35. > :41:38.the rights and wrongs of it. It is about the media coverage of this?
:41:38. > :41:41.It feels the courts have been responsible, they won't have
:41:41. > :41:44.cameras on his statement, there is a question about whether you do.
:41:44. > :41:52.Let's say you have made that choice, there is a burden of responsibility
:41:52. > :41:59.on all of those of us around the every nugget, and nuance of his
:41:59. > :42:06.speech, ass if a thinker whose opinions deserve debating, that is
:42:06. > :42:10.-- as if a thinker whose opinions deserve debate is wrong. Do you
:42:10. > :42:13.believe they are feeding this oxygen? I'm a firm believer in open
:42:13. > :42:17.justice. I don't like the way we have been recently going, which is
:42:18. > :42:22.when it comes to terrorism, and things that we really are horrified
:42:22. > :42:27.by, that we seek to deal with things increasingly behind closed
:42:27. > :42:31.doors. I think open justice is an essential element in a democracy. I
:42:31. > :42:40.think the Norwegians have dealt with this rather well. I'm somebody
:42:40. > :42:45.who opposes tell advising of criminal trials. I don't know --
:42:46. > :42:50.teleadvising of criminal trials. This is clearly a man who relishes
:42:50. > :42:53.psycho analysing himself in front of an entire world? The court is
:42:53. > :42:57.psycho analysing him, they are having to decide is this man
:42:57. > :43:01.somebody who is pathological, I think it is coming through he is.
:43:01. > :43:07.He is playing it carefully, he said he wouldn't testify at all unless
:43:07. > :43:11.he got a full hour to read his statement. He had written in his
:43:11. > :43:16.1800-page manifesto that your trial is stage to the world. Knows the
:43:16. > :43:20.propaganda value of that, the problem is, by giving him that
:43:20. > :43:25.stage, we are setting out an incentive to other Breivik, kill as
:43:25. > :43:29.this man did and you will be rewarded with this global platform.
:43:29. > :43:34.Should we not turn up on the doorstep and mention how many
:43:34. > :43:38.people are shot in these situations as journalists? You don't pour over
:43:38. > :43:41.these manifestos as if they have kick started a debate, rather than
:43:41. > :43:46.committed a murderous crime. Many of the trials in this country, the
:43:46. > :43:49.people who did the airline bomb plot, the focus of the coverage in
:43:49. > :43:55.2006, it was about the mechanics of the plan, the scale of it, people
:43:55. > :44:00.did not go into great depth about their political ideas. We don't
:44:00. > :44:05.need to know his views on multiculturalism, he is a mass
:44:05. > :44:12.murdering? It is very important for this court to hear about this man's
:44:12. > :44:20.motives for doing what he did. It exposes the uglyness of his views
:44:20. > :44:24.of how important it is that we engage with difference, and we do
:44:24. > :44:28.not have automatic hostility to the other. Which I think is happening
:44:28. > :44:31.increase league across Europe. are more understanding of the fact
:44:31. > :44:36.these motives killed 70 people? have to understand what brought
:44:36. > :44:41.this man to this position. So that you can sentence him and what will
:44:42. > :44:46.happen to him is he will get a heavy sentence. It is not to do
:44:46. > :44:51.that by covering it as if it is the Chancellor's budget statement,
:44:51. > :44:54.minute-by-minute. There is a plea for consistency, Breivik is treated
:44:54. > :45:01.differently because he as a threat to Norway and Europe from within.
:45:01. > :45:05.Those people deemed from without, the 9/11 hijackers, mom hom mom is
:45:05. > :45:10.a definitive -- Khalid Sheikh Mohammed is a definitive example,
:45:10. > :45:16.and they are treated in a different way. Do you think it is a prepable
:45:16. > :45:19.system? There is a legal argument, my instincts are with normway, the
:45:19. > :45:25.response of the Norwegian Prime Minister was responding with more
:45:25. > :45:29.freedom and more democracy. That is great, the rest of us outside, the
:45:29. > :45:35.media, we have then a response toblt say that is happening as a
:45:35. > :45:38.trial. But -- responsibility to say that is happening as a trial.
:45:38. > :45:42.public are entitled to know what happened and what went wrong. It is
:45:42. > :45:50.important for the victims of this atrocity and families to have a
:45:50. > :45:54.public hearing, that is absolutely vital, that is what law is about in
:45:54. > :45:57.a democracy. The 29th certificate national kite
:45:57. > :46:07.festival kicked off in China this weekend. Hopefully you will be
:46:07. > :46:41.
:46:41. > :46:45.If you get a try day you will be doing well. A lot more rain to come.
:46:45. > :46:48.This is Tuesday, a damp start across East Anglia and the south-
:46:48. > :46:58.east. Fade ago I way and the showers getting going by the
:46:58. > :47:02.afternoon. Sunshine and showers, many places vieding them but many a
:47:02. > :47:06.downpour or two. The best of brightness getting up
:47:06. > :47:10.to 12-13, warmer than southern counties, when the showers come
:47:10. > :47:15.along they will tumble by seven degrees. Some of the best sunshine
:47:15. > :47:18.across the west coast of Wales, reasonable here, but heavy showers
:47:18. > :47:22.inland, especially over the high grond. Northern Ireland seeing
:47:22. > :47:26.sunshine and showers, you might get lucky to avoid them, you will be
:47:26. > :47:31.doing well. Ten degrees in Belfast, best across Scotland will be west.
:47:31. > :47:35.Further east clouds, showers, cool, and some snow over the Grampians.
:47:35. > :47:40.Looking further ahead it goes downhill on Wednesday. Really wet
:47:40. > :47:45.weather, pushing across the country, starting off in the south, heading
:47:45. > :47:51.northwards, a deluge, sproing strong winds, temperatures held