:00:11. > :00:14.Did Jeremy Hunt fly too close to the Sun? Labour calls for the
:00:14. > :00:19.Culture Secretary to step down, saying he gave News Corp executives
:00:19. > :00:25.highly sensitive information on the takeover of BSkyB. The Secretary of
:00:25. > :00:30.State refuses to go and insists he's done nothing wrong. Now isn't
:00:30. > :00:33.that time for knee-jerk reactions. We had evidence presented today
:00:33. > :00:39.that alleged meetings and conversations that simply did not
:00:39. > :00:42.happen. Did James Murdoch intend to create havoc at the heart of
:00:42. > :00:46.government? And can Jeremy Hunt stay in his job? Allegra and Paul
:00:46. > :00:50.have some answers. Jeremy Hunt's survival depends on a strategy of
:00:50. > :00:54.flat denial of what these emails say. He's not someone the Cameron
:00:54. > :01:00.project intends to lose. But he knows he must put his side of the
:01:00. > :01:02.story sooner rather than later. Labour's deputy leader goes head-
:01:02. > :01:05.to-head with a defender of the Culture Secretary. And we'll be
:01:05. > :01:08.asking the phone-hacked George Galloway, Neville Thurlbeck - he of
:01:08. > :01:11.the For Neville emails - and Labour peer Lord Puttnam what to make of
:01:11. > :01:14.the relationship between press and politicians. Also tonight: The
:01:14. > :01:23.teenage victims of domestic violence. How can one in four be
:01:23. > :01:28.abused by their partners? He threw a microwave at my head. I was left
:01:28. > :01:38.in a wheelchair. I walk up and I was at the other end of her room
:01:38. > :01:42.
:01:42. > :01:45.and Heidi -- and he was stamping on me. Good evening. Jeremy Hunt's own
:01:45. > :01:50.website proclaimed him a cheerleader for Murdoch. He may be
:01:50. > :01:55.feeling distinctly less of one this evening. Today, the Leveson Enquiry
:01:55. > :01:58.took a turn no one had expected. James Murdoch appeared to drop the
:01:58. > :02:01.Government into a whole new level of trouble with allegations of a
:02:01. > :02:04.chain of emails and text messages that link the Culture Secretary
:02:04. > :02:06.with News Corporation over the issue of the takeover of BskyB. --
:02:07. > :02:09.BSkyB. Jeremy Hunt insists he's done nothing wrong and wants to
:02:09. > :02:12.bring forward his own appearance at Leveson to clear his name. This
:02:13. > :02:15.evening, we'll be asking if the controversy leads to the very top
:02:15. > :02:21.of government. First, here's David Grossman with a report containing
:02:21. > :02:26.some very strong language. James Murdoch giving evidence, this time
:02:26. > :02:31.to the levees inquiry and this time... Eyes were to God that the
:02:31. > :02:36.evidence shall be the truth. Although he was asked about phone-
:02:36. > :02:41.hacking, the sensational, jaw- dropping part of the testimony had
:02:41. > :02:47.to do with the bid to take over BSkyB. What we got was this
:02:47. > :02:52.extraordinary cache of e-mails, over 160 pages. Detailing an
:02:52. > :02:58.amazing level of contact between the government and the heart of the
:02:58. > :03:01.Murdoch empire and the specifics of the BSkyB bid. They were mostly
:03:01. > :03:11.written by Frederic de Shell, he was at the time the Director of
:03:11. > :03:14.Public Affairs for News Corporation in Europe. 24th January,
:03:14. > :03:22.confidential, statement, manage to get some information on the plans
:03:22. > :03:31.for tomorrow. Although absolutely illegal. What do you make of that?
:03:31. > :03:35.I thought it was a joke, that little!, it is winking, it's a joke.
:03:35. > :03:40.Initially, the bid was being overseen by the Business Secretary
:03:40. > :03:45.and he appeared to be enthusiastic. But all the time there was contact
:03:45. > :03:52.with Jeremy Hunt and his team at Culture, Media and Sport. When on
:03:52. > :03:57.15th September, the BBC's Robert Peston said that Vince Cable was
:03:58. > :04:03.likely to contravene in the bed, Fred Michelle sends an e-mail
:04:03. > :04:07.saying... Jeremy Hunt isn't aware and thinks it isn't credible. He is
:04:07. > :04:13.checking out. Much was made at the inquiry of an article that Mr Hunt
:04:13. > :04:16.has on his website describing him as, like all good Conservatives,
:04:16. > :04:22.actually do for her Rupert Murdoch's contribution to the
:04:22. > :04:27.health of British television. way you did communicate was three
:04:27. > :04:33.you're chillier, Mr Hunt, to find out what was happening? -- through
:04:33. > :04:36.you're a cheerleader. Mr Michel is a diligent executive and he
:04:36. > :04:40.communicated with many people across the spectrum, as is
:04:40. > :04:44.evidenced in this. By this stage there was concern that Vince Cable
:04:45. > :04:48.was becoming implacably opposed to the bed so they tried other parts
:04:48. > :04:53.of the government to get intelligence. One conversation with
:04:53. > :04:58.Rupert Harrison, who was and is an adviser to George Osborne, the
:04:58. > :05:02.Chancellor. Meeting of the report Harrison, who works with George,
:05:02. > :05:05.confirmed tensions in the Coalition around Vince Cable and his current
:05:05. > :05:10.policy positions. He made a political decision, probably
:05:10. > :05:13.without even reading the legal advice. At the same time, Jeremy
:05:14. > :05:20.Hunt, the Culture Secretary, had been told by his civil servants
:05:21. > :05:25.that he should no longer have any contact with News Corporation.
:05:25. > :05:29.Although an e-mail from Mr Michel to the Mr Murdoch suggested that a
:05:29. > :05:39.mobile phone conversation might be a lull. Your reply, for one reply
:05:39. > :05:44.which might be relevant... 12:02pm. The early afternoon. You must be
:05:44. > :05:52.joking, I will text in and find some time. You were angry? By was
:05:52. > :05:55.displeased. On 21st December, the bombshell. Vince Cable is removed
:05:55. > :06:00.from overseeing the BSkyB bid after he is caught telling undercover
:06:00. > :06:05.reporters that he has declared war on Rupert Murdoch and the job has
:06:05. > :06:09.given to Jeremy Hunt. On Christmas Eve, Frederick Michelle e-mails
:06:09. > :06:13.James Murdoch, just Spock, he was happy for me to be the point of
:06:13. > :06:19.contact with him at and Adam on behalf of James Murdoch going
:06:19. > :06:23.forward. Very important to avoid giving those against any
:06:23. > :06:29.opportunity to attack the fairness. This had gone through January and a
:06:29. > :06:34.the 23rd, Frederick writes another e-mail. Just spoke to to a hitch,
:06:34. > :06:38.we will report separately. There is an extraordinary discussion about
:06:38. > :06:42.what Jeremy Hunt is planning in terms of the undertakings been Loew
:06:42. > :06:47.of this. These were the promises that News Corporation offered in
:06:47. > :06:51.terms of returning for the bid has not been reported to the
:06:51. > :06:55.Competition Commission. Once he announces publicly that he has a
:06:55. > :07:02.strong undertaking, it is almost game over for the opposition and in
:07:02. > :07:07.another e-mail, he gives James Hunt was planning to go to
:07:07. > :07:11.Parliament in two days. I have a very constructive conversation, he
:07:11. > :07:14.is keen for me to work with his team on the statement during the
:07:14. > :07:21.course of tomorrow and offers some possible language. That is really
:07:21. > :07:26.good is. He is it appropriate that here you are getting the
:07:26. > :07:35.confidential information as to what is going on a a high level in
:07:35. > :07:40.government? I think... I think... What I was concerned with is the
:07:40. > :07:44.substance of what was being CT it and not necessarily the Channel.
:07:44. > :07:48.One interesting point to note in all of this, in his witness
:07:48. > :07:51.statement to the inquiry, Frederick Michelle says that when he refers
:07:51. > :07:59.to these e-mails to contacts and conversations with Jeremy Hunt, he
:07:59. > :08:02.never actually had any contact. It was with his advisers. So... Is
:08:02. > :08:10.this actually evidence of a man who has been caught out trying to
:08:10. > :08:13.impress his bus with influence and contact? Jeremy Hunt tonight says
:08:14. > :08:19.that he is keen to show that is what happened and he was to give
:08:19. > :08:22.his evidence as soon as possible. We have evidence for today that
:08:22. > :08:26.alleged meetings with me that did not happen and we need to get to
:08:26. > :08:31.the bottom of that and rather than jumping on a political bandwagon,
:08:31. > :08:35.what the public its to hear is what Lord Justice Levison himself thinks
:08:35. > :08:40.after he has heard all the evidence. And there is plenty more evidence
:08:40. > :08:47.to come tomorrow. It could be just as explosive. It is the turn of
:08:47. > :08:51.Rupert Murdoch. David Grossman. With me now, our political editor,
:08:51. > :08:54.Allegra Stratton, and our economics editor, Paul Mason. How much
:08:55. > :08:58.trouble is Jeremy Hunt in? They are confident that he will stay, they
:08:58. > :09:02.have tried to bring forward his appearance so that he can put his
:09:02. > :09:06.own side of the argument and in that, there is a sense that he
:09:06. > :09:10.should be left alone until he can put his side and there is some
:09:10. > :09:14.suggestion that Levison isn't letting him bring forward his case
:09:14. > :09:20.so he might have a window where it is hanging in the air and they are
:09:20. > :09:26.confident because we have this Walter Mitty? As to what extent
:09:26. > :09:29.either Frederick Michelle or Adam Smith, the interlocutor for
:09:30. > :09:38.Michelle, with Jeremy Hunt, to what extent are they both acting with
:09:38. > :09:41.their bosses knowledge? That is important. To what extent does
:09:41. > :09:44.Frederick Michel inflate the information he has? The example
:09:45. > :09:48.given around Westminster today is that early in the process he
:09:48. > :09:53.asserts that Vince Cable is minded to support the bid and anybody who
:09:53. > :09:57.knows Vince Cable knows that isn't the correct interpretation of Vince
:09:57. > :10:01.Cable and Jeremy Hunt says that if you look at that, what is done to
:10:01. > :10:05.other evidence? Jeremy Hunt is incredibly important to the Cameron
:10:05. > :10:10.project and are seen as for the market, up until now, and many in
:10:10. > :10:15.the future a very safe pair of hands. Perhaps a very famous
:10:15. > :10:19.epithet! It is curious that we're not talking about James Murdoch
:10:19. > :10:23.principally tonight. How do you think he came out of this? Prior to
:10:23. > :10:29.this, we were asking, what do we think the Murdoch family strategy
:10:29. > :10:34.is? This is a big week. We all know that the strategy is to bring down
:10:34. > :10:38.one-on-one ministers in this Government because despite that
:10:38. > :10:41.generally self-effacing approach, I was not doing anything untoward,
:10:41. > :10:46.the effect is to create the impression, through evidence,
:10:46. > :10:52.primarily out of the mouth of the lieutenant of James Murdoch, that
:10:52. > :10:58.there was untoward and incredible access for that corporation to the
:10:58. > :11:00.man who was supposed to take an objective decision. How ironic that
:11:00. > :11:05.the Levison inquiry was set up because there was a feeling that
:11:05. > :11:11.the Murdoch press was able to drop politicians in it and had a dossier
:11:11. > :11:15.on them and could control politics? And here, through the platform of
:11:15. > :11:23.the Nelson Inquiry, we have the destruction of a minister's career.
:11:23. > :11:27.We are only at the beginning of this process because they are
:11:27. > :11:29.members of the Armed Forces listed and members of the intelligence
:11:29. > :11:34.service and maybe the royal household that will be named as
:11:34. > :11:37.having been paid by the Murdoch family but this started with an
:11:37. > :11:43.Minister and nobody expected this level of evidence to be presented
:11:43. > :11:48.and as you said, he has to show that it is wrong. News Corp did
:11:48. > :11:52.quite well? Yes, if you were a shareholder, he would say that not
:11:52. > :11:55.only in James performance and what he said, I have batted for this
:11:55. > :12:01.corporation, I took the elbow of the Prime Minister at Christmas and
:12:01. > :12:05.asked him briefly to bear in mind our problems. A is a school of
:12:05. > :12:13.thought that this is contrary to that, is this the worst and the
:12:13. > :12:16.earliest? The idea that the Prime Minister is due to come soon. This
:12:16. > :12:20.is a man alongside Vince Cable he was involved in the policy
:12:20. > :12:23.implications of this and what could come next are suggestions of crime
:12:23. > :12:33.in a sand being too close but not suggestions of policy being
:12:33. > :12:39.affected. -- implications of grime. The focus is on Jeremy Hunt tonight.
:12:39. > :12:45.And a lot of politicians... A huge number of people involved. It is
:12:45. > :12:48.incredibly sticky. Anybody in Westminster... Frederick Michelle
:12:48. > :12:53.was doing a very good job getting around all these people but there
:12:53. > :12:58.is another individual drag into this, Alex Salmond, and today it
:12:58. > :13:01.wasn't the same testimony that he has said that in return for support
:13:01. > :13:06.from newspapers in Scotland he would also helped Jeremy Hunt get
:13:06. > :13:10.involved in the bid for BSkyB. Thank you both very much. We
:13:10. > :13:15.invited the Government tonight but they declined. We can talk to the
:13:15. > :13:20.Labour deputy leader and shadow culture secretary, Harriet Harman.
:13:20. > :13:26.And fighting for the conservative corner, Jacob Rees Mogg. Welcome to
:13:26. > :13:34.both of you. The entry on the Kapadia for Jeremy Hunt was changed
:13:34. > :13:37.today to say that he had resigned. Was that you? Certainly not. He did
:13:37. > :13:43.not pause in calling for his resignation. Would not have been
:13:43. > :13:46.better to wait for his response? The position is, if you are the
:13:46. > :13:50.Secretary of State with responsibility for making a
:13:50. > :13:57.decision which is a very important commercial decision which also has
:13:57. > :14:01.big implications for the landscape across the media, you have to ask
:14:01. > :14:06.in a quiz a judicial capacity so do not think like a politician, think
:14:06. > :14:14.like a judge and be impartial. It is quite evident that although he
:14:14. > :14:16.promised to act with impartiality and fairness, Jeremy Hunt did not
:14:16. > :14:20.actually fulfilled the responsibilities of his office.
:14:20. > :14:23.Both you and Ed Miliband rushed to the stump, what of this is only a
:14:23. > :14:30.partial picture of what happened. We have not even heard his side of
:14:30. > :14:35.the story. If you look at the e- mails at revising Rupert Murdoch,
:14:35. > :14:41.before Jeremy Hunt did things, in great detail, what he was going to
:14:41. > :14:47.do and what he was going to say was actually played out. If you look at
:14:47. > :14:51.the email on 24th January, in minute detail, it goes into exactly
:14:51. > :14:55.what Jeremy Hunt is going to say to the House of Commons in order to
:14:55. > :15:01.justify rejecting the proposal by OFCOM that the bid should go to the
:15:01. > :15:04.Competition Commission. Either Frederick Michelle is clairvoyant
:15:04. > :15:11.and psychic and can work out exactly what Jeremy Hunt will do
:15:12. > :15:17.the next day and tell his bus, James Murdoch, or else he was
:15:17. > :15:20.informed on Jeremy Hunt's behalf. It is quite clear that he knew in
:15:20. > :15:25.advance what was going on. The other thing is that you cannot say
:15:25. > :15:34.you are acting impartially if you are giving information to one side
:15:34. > :15:39.You don't buy this is the head of PR at News International, whatever,
:15:39. > :15:44.bigging up his role to his bosses? Well, it's not credible to think he
:15:44. > :15:49.was not given information when he was able to predict, before it has
:15:49. > :15:53.happened, exactly, including the words, that Jeremy Hunt would be
:15:53. > :15:58.using, having said that he discussed what the words were that
:15:58. > :16:06.Jeremy Hunt should use to the House and then uses those words. This is
:16:06. > :16:09.of great seriousness. You have to - Let's look from the beginning.
:16:09. > :16:13.First, Jeremy Hunt is not the minister in charge. At which point
:16:13. > :16:17.he's perfectly entitled to see members of the family and have a
:16:17. > :16:21.private view. He then becomes the minister in charge, at which point
:16:21. > :16:25.he won't meet with James Murdoch or other members of the family. The
:16:25. > :16:32.phone call is a suggested call. It is not one that we are told that he
:16:32. > :16:37.had. Hold on. We are told by this Frederic Michel man that JH doesn't
:16:37. > :16:43.mean Mr Hunt. It means anybody in Mr Hunt's office and the company
:16:43. > :16:48.News Corp is in negotiations with the Government about an jund taking
:16:48. > :16:58.in lieu and therefore it -- jund taking in lieu, therefore it has to
:16:58. > :17:00.
:17:00. > :17:06.have a response so disagreement can be reached. What about the e-mails,
:17:06. > :17:11."He wanted Mr Murdoch to understand he wanted to build political
:17:11. > :17:15.cover."? I have one, "Vince Cable call went very well. Cable said he
:17:15. > :17:18.was coming as planned tomorrow evening. Cable appreciated." We all
:17:18. > :17:24.know that the President of the board of trade loathed Rupert
:17:24. > :17:29.Murdoch. He wanted to block the bid and yet this Frederic Michel is
:17:29. > :17:38.boasting to his bosses that Cable is a supporter of Murdoch. He is a
:17:38. > :17:42.PR man, who uses a -- emoticons and is not credible. How do you explain
:17:42. > :17:44.the point that the words he anticipated came out? They were in
:17:44. > :17:50.a negotiation about the undertakings in lieu. If the
:17:50. > :17:55.Government is shown to have leaked, that will not be unique to this
:17:55. > :17:59.Government. When you are acting in a quasijudicial capacity it's a
:17:59. > :18:03.very different standard of responsibility you accept and I
:18:03. > :18:07.think Jeremy Hunt, because he had been, as you say, involved in the
:18:07. > :18:14.discussions with James Murdoch, when he didn't have responsibility
:18:14. > :18:18.for the decision, when Vince Cable was not able to carry on with
:18:18. > :18:21.responsibility, Jeremy Hunt should have said, "I can't be impartial
:18:21. > :18:25.and act in a quasijudicial way, because everybody knows I've
:18:25. > :18:30.committed myself to this bid. Somebody else will have to do it."
:18:30. > :18:36.Your lot must be furious they were thrown out and another bias comes
:18:36. > :18:40.along? I don't think there was any bias once Jeremy Hunt took over in
:18:40. > :18:46.the quasijudicial role. I think from that point he behaved
:18:46. > :18:49.rigorously. Hold on. He called it the office -- called in Ofcom and
:18:49. > :18:53.the Office of Fair Trading. He didn't have to do that. He took
:18:53. > :18:56.independent advice throughout the process. His behaviour was so above
:18:56. > :19:02.board that it was painfully honest. Meanwhile, you have David Cameron
:19:02. > :19:07.who said he hadn't been involved in any of this process at a dinner
:19:07. > :19:11.party just after Jeremy Hunt took over admitting that he discussed it.
:19:11. > :19:17.It's completely irrelevant. Why? Because the minister was making the
:19:17. > :19:22.What was David Cameron denying he had been involved if he was having
:19:22. > :19:26.that chat? He wasn't involved in the decision. It was being made
:19:26. > :19:28.which the Prime Minister could not constitutionally intervene in.
:19:28. > :19:33.Rupert Murdoch would have had dinner with the Queen for all it
:19:33. > :19:37.would have mattered, because the decision was being made by the sos
:19:37. > :19:44.for culture. You are completely happy -- the Secretary of State for
:19:44. > :19:54.culture. So you are happy with the relationship over this incredibly
:19:54. > :19:57.
:19:57. > :20:01.Yes. I don't think it is acceptable to say you will be operating in qas
:20:01. > :20:04.say juddaigs manner, collude with the other side about the
:20:04. > :20:07.information you give in parliament, give the information to one side
:20:07. > :20:11.before parliament, and take on that responsibility, when you have
:20:11. > :20:14.already committed yourself to the same objective as the bid. I think
:20:14. > :20:17.that really, instead of David Cameron saying he's done absolutely
:20:17. > :20:20.the right thing, he should be upholding high standards in public
:20:20. > :20:26.office, and saying this is different, this is not politics,
:20:26. > :20:31.this is quasi-judicial commercial decision making, and Jeremy Hunt
:20:31. > :20:34.has let his office down and should resign. Have you spoken to Jeremy
:20:34. > :20:39.Hunt? I don't know Jeremy Hunt, I'm supporting the Conservative cabinet
:20:39. > :20:43.minister, who I think has done a good, decent and proper job. Don't
:20:43. > :20:47.you worry that you are putting yourself out on a limb here, with
:20:47. > :20:53.somebody who hasn't even managed to deny the whole thing, all he has
:20:53. > :20:57.said is he wants to appear before Leveson and refers up? All we have
:20:57. > :21:00.heard is a string of allegation, they say he leaked his statement,
:21:00. > :21:04.there is no evidence of that. We knew News Corporation was in
:21:04. > :21:08.negotiations with the Government to give this undertaking. There had to
:21:08. > :21:11.be an exchange of information relating to the undertaking.
:21:11. > :21:16.Allegations are being cast around without evidence for them.
:21:16. > :21:20.Jeremy Hunt left. If in the process of this he left, would that wipe
:21:20. > :21:26.the slate clean, as far as you are concerned? I think it would uphold
:21:26. > :21:30.the important issue of people acting quasi-judicially, how will
:21:30. > :21:33.the public think the Government, in future decisions, with huge
:21:33. > :21:38.commercial implications, will act impartially, on the evidence,
:21:38. > :21:41.according to law, when Jeremy Hunt has now got to respond to a whole
:21:41. > :21:45.shrew of e-mail. Jeremy Hunt will document everything he has done, as
:21:45. > :21:48.he did in his successive statements to the Commons. We would very much
:21:48. > :21:52.like to keep you both here for the next discussion, which will broaden
:21:52. > :21:57.out a bit. As I was mention, David Cameron, it emerged today,
:21:57. > :22:05.discussed plans for the takeover at a private dinner with James Murdoch,
:22:05. > :22:09.it was heard that S NP's Alex Salmond helped with the bid. Tony
:22:09. > :22:19.Blair flew half way around the world for the relationship. What do
:22:19. > :22:23.
:22:23. > :22:28.we make of the relations between these parties, are they really over.
:22:28. > :22:32.The News of the World was characterised by cavalier or
:22:32. > :22:37.swashbuckling attitude to rissnk Knowing what we know now about the
:22:37. > :22:42.culture at News of the World in 206, for example, they must have been
:22:43. > :22:46.cavalier about risk, that is matter of huge regret. Your meetings with
:22:46. > :22:51.Gordon Brown, they appear to be largely a social nature? That's
:22:51. > :22:58.correct, pretty much, I remember on the middle one, the 15th of
:22:58. > :23:08.December 2008, I don't remember, but he would have told me lots of
:23:08. > :23:11.
:23:11. > :23:17.things about the economy. It was made clear to Mr Cameron, by
:23:17. > :23:22.me, that after discussions with the editor and the leadership at News
:23:22. > :23:26.International and my father, that autumn the Sun would either be
:23:26. > :23:29.endorsing the Conservative Party, or certainly, you know, moving away
:23:29. > :23:33.from its traditional, or recent support of Labour, as it had been
:23:33. > :23:40.through the summer. Yes, and this must have been
:23:40. > :23:47.welcome news to Mr Cameron, wasn't it? It seemed that way.
:23:47. > :23:51.Two days after the revelation that Mr Cable might not be approaching
:23:51. > :23:57.the BSkyB bid with an entirely open mind, if I can put it in that way.
:23:57. > :24:00.It was two days after Mr Cable had been removed from his
:24:00. > :24:04.responsibilities after showing acute bias. So the state of the bid
:24:04. > :24:07.was very much in your mind on the 23rd of December. It was, there was
:24:07. > :24:10.a big question mark about what would happen going forward, there
:24:10. > :24:14.was no discussion with Mr Cameron, other than I have detailed in my
:24:14. > :24:20.witness statement, he reiterated what he said publicly, which was
:24:20. > :24:28.the behaviour had been unacceptable. I imagine I expressed a hope that
:24:28. > :24:32.things would be dealt with in a way that was appropriate and judicial.
:24:32. > :24:42.I'm not sure you have given me an answer Mr Murdoch, a solution, that
:24:42. > :24:43.
:24:43. > :24:49.is? I think it is a little above my pay grade, Sir. I doubt it!
:24:49. > :24:53.Although I have no idea about your pay grade, I certainly know mine!
:24:53. > :25:00.Jason Rees Mogg is still with us, also here the recently elected
:25:00. > :25:05.Respect MP, Galloway ga, the Labour peer, film maker and architect of
:25:06. > :25:12.Ofcom, and Neville Thurlbeck of the For Neville e-mails, working for
:25:12. > :25:17.the charity Talking2Minds. Sorry, Neville was arrested over
:25:17. > :25:20.allegations of phone hacking, he's bailed until May, for legal reasons
:25:20. > :25:26.we can't ask him about that case, for the record he denies phone
:25:26. > :25:30.hacking. I have to get that out of the way before going on with the
:25:30. > :25:36.debate, that is the wider relationship between Murdoch and
:25:36. > :25:44.politicians. It does feel like another day and another heap of man
:25:44. > :25:48.Euro-has come out of the news -- manure has come out of the News
:25:48. > :25:52.Corporation stables? If you put an organisation under the microscope
:25:52. > :25:55.of something like the Leveson Inquiry, you will find that will
:25:55. > :25:59.embarrass the company severely. Today the company has found itself
:25:59. > :26:04.in a difficult position, and Mr Hnut has found himself in an even
:26:04. > :26:09.more difficult position. Whether or not Mr Hnut is guilty of any bias
:26:09. > :26:14.is kind of by the by. He or his staff have allowed themselves to
:26:14. > :26:19.give the appearance of bias, which it has undermined the department,
:26:19. > :26:23.and what Mr Hnut does not have in his favour, is time. This thing
:26:23. > :26:28.will run very quickly, he has to get on top of it very quickly,
:26:28. > :26:32.otherwise it will form a very, very negative life force for him and the
:26:32. > :26:35.Government. Who do you think comes out of this worse? The Government,
:26:35. > :26:41.you can't really blame a capitalist company for doing everything that
:26:41. > :26:45.it could to get a bigger market share of the market that it was in.
:26:45. > :26:49.But if only we could have seen the e-mails from the Tony Blair and
:26:49. > :26:55.Gordon Brown Premiership, with the Murdochs, then we would know that
:26:55. > :27:01.both Labour and the Conservatives have been in bed with, and have not,
:27:01. > :27:04.like Neville, infamously, made their excuses and left. Have you
:27:04. > :27:09.any evidence of business deals that involved the Blair Government and
:27:09. > :27:19.the Murdochs? As you put it, Tony Blair flew half way around the
:27:19. > :27:23.world to play homage at the Murdoch king. The attendance at Chequers by
:27:23. > :27:27.Murdoch and the partners, far outstriped than under the Tory
:27:27. > :27:33.years. It is not that the Tories are not guilty, but both are guilty
:27:33. > :27:38.with being in bed with an evil, wicked empire, a stain on the
:27:38. > :27:42.country. I left my mobile in the cloakroom in case Neville Thurlbeck
:27:42. > :27:46.hacked it, because he and his fellows have been systematically
:27:46. > :27:49.corrupting the system in this country for at least 25, maybe 40
:27:49. > :27:55.years. You are a Labour peer, this is one for you, there is just as
:27:55. > :28:00.much dirt on both sides, toxicity? You use that word, it is right. We
:28:00. > :28:03.are all victims of this. I feel sorry, genuinely, for Neville, I
:28:03. > :28:08.feel sorry for a lot of the people caught up in this. We are dealing
:28:08. > :28:12.in a culture that has got progressively worse for a number of
:28:13. > :28:16.years, it is not getting bottomed out. I like Jeremy Hunt as a guy,
:28:16. > :28:20.it doesn't matter if he stays or goes f he goes politicians and
:28:20. > :28:24.politics will say, job done, next, another one comes in and off we go
:28:24. > :28:30.again. We have to bottom this out. I mention today Jacob before we
:28:30. > :28:34.went on air, I mean it sincerely, it is his generation that have to
:28:34. > :28:38.deal with this, we can't go on with this ludicrous situation. What
:28:38. > :28:41.Leveson is unravelling is a situation where this was a banana
:28:41. > :28:44.Republic, this was a joke, the bankrupt police, the corrupt press,
:28:44. > :28:48.we have corrupt politicians and it was getting worse. When will this
:28:48. > :28:53.start. Isn't it odd that you are not, you don't feel apologetic for
:28:53. > :28:56.any of this, you are defending the Culture Secretary staujly tonight
:28:56. > :29:00.and saying business is fine? -- staunchly tonight, and saying
:29:00. > :29:02.business is fine? We have to have a sense of proportion, some
:29:02. > :29:05.disgraceful things have happened, and the criminal law is working
:29:05. > :29:08.through to deal with those. It is in the nature of politics and
:29:08. > :29:11.journalism that politicians and journalists want to be close to
:29:11. > :29:19.each other. My father was invited to Chequers Bihar rolled Wilson,
:29:19. > :29:22.fat lot of use it did for Harold Wilson, as editor of the Times.
:29:22. > :29:26.Lord Salisbury wrote articles under other people's names criticising
:29:26. > :29:30.politicians in the 19th century. Politics and journalism has this
:29:30. > :29:34.relationship and it always will, but the criminal law should be
:29:34. > :29:37.upheld. Of course politicians will seek to influence journalist, the
:29:37. > :29:43.proper attitude for journalists towards politicians should be that
:29:43. > :29:48.of the dog to the lampost, and it isn't. You have favoured, or rather
:29:48. > :29:53.your father's newspaper, the Times, has favoured. You have favoured
:29:53. > :29:57.politicians, in exchange for business concession. That is
:29:57. > :30:00.corrupt, everyone watching this knows that. I think this is very
:30:00. > :30:05.niave. It assumes that just because you have lunch with somebody you
:30:05. > :30:13.then write a piece saying they are fabulous, you don't, that is not
:30:13. > :30:17.the way it works. With Alex Salmond it is there in writing. He has
:30:17. > :30:23.denied that and it is referred to the Leveson Inquiry, so that is out
:30:23. > :30:28.of the way. You have to be kaifrt with PR people. You are getting an
:30:28. > :30:31.easy ride here, you are the one a lot of this dirt should be aimed at,
:30:31. > :30:37.you have created these incredible complicated relationships between
:30:37. > :30:42.the people that you write about? There is, as we have said there is
:30:42. > :30:47.always a strong relationship between newspaper pro-priorers,
:30:47. > :30:57.journalists and -- proprietors, and politicians, there is nothing wrong
:30:57. > :30:59.
:30:59. > :31:03.with that, you know. Charities and others seek to influence
:31:03. > :31:07.Governments and we accept it. When a corporation comes along with
:31:07. > :31:10.money, that isn't necessarily wrong. It becomes wrong when Government
:31:10. > :31:16.ministers become unduly influenced by that. That still remains to be
:31:16. > :31:21.seen. It has to be said that Frederic Michel, I know him, not
:31:21. > :31:26.well, but I know Frederic Michel. He's a very, very persuasive
:31:26. > :31:30.operator, we have to wonder, also, whether Frederic Michel was being,
:31:30. > :31:33.was overplaying his hand with his very demanding boss. You think he
:31:33. > :31:37.as not that credible? I'm not saying he's not that credible. What
:31:37. > :31:45.I'm saying is we have to hear what Mr Hnut has to say. Because it
:31:45. > :31:51.might Hans It -- it might transpire that Frederic Michel has been
:31:51. > :31:54.overplaying his hand to a great extent. He has admitted that the JH
:31:54. > :31:59.references can also refer to Adam Smith and members of his team.
:31:59. > :32:06.made this a priority, many years ago, you were one of the architects
:32:06. > :32:11.of media regulation, did you think we would be embroiled in this kind
:32:11. > :32:14.of taudryness? It is heard breaking, he believe when we created Ofcom we
:32:14. > :32:19.were protecting ministers from becoming embroiled in exactly this
:32:19. > :32:23.situation. They should never have touched the BSkyB deal at all?
:32:24. > :32:28.Never. What really hurts me, I put this to Jacob, is Ofcom was there
:32:28. > :32:32.to give advice. If my reading of these e-mails clear, there was
:32:33. > :32:37.every attempt by the Government to undercut and subvert what Ofcom was
:32:37. > :32:40.doing. What James Murdoch we know hates Ofcom. There is another
:32:40. > :32:44.problem Jacob has to address, why was it, when the Prime Minister did
:32:44. > :32:48.his famous speech, the bonfire of the quangos, the one he chose to
:32:48. > :32:55.pick out, was Ofcom has to be cut back. Not only has Ofcom not been
:32:55. > :32:58.cut back, but why did he choose it? Two questions to answer, the first
:32:58. > :33:02.one, is that Jeremy Hunt actually consulted Ofcom, which he didn't
:33:02. > :33:06.legally need to do. That is an important part of the bid process,
:33:06. > :33:10.and an important part of the defence of Jeremy Hunt. Ofcom
:33:10. > :33:14.regulates more than television, it also regulates telecoms, and
:33:14. > :33:17.telecoms has become so competitive that it needs much less regulatory
:33:17. > :33:21.interference than it used to need. There are savings to be made.
:33:21. > :33:24.want to move on to tomorrow, that will be a big day for Leveson. We
:33:24. > :33:29.have Rupert Murdoch, the mogul himself, appearing at the inquiry.
:33:29. > :33:31.I'm interested to know whether you think this will now be the end? Do
:33:31. > :33:34.you think the Cameron Government, possibly the Labour Government,
:33:34. > :33:37.will shut the doors on this relationship with the Murdochs?
:33:37. > :33:42.think the Murdochs will be out of the British media market before
:33:42. > :33:48.very long. I think the shareholder, the other directors, powerful
:33:48. > :33:51.people, really are at the end of their tether in all of this, I
:33:51. > :33:57.think the Murdochs will have to devest their media interests. There
:33:57. > :34:01.is no way they will be able to take over Sky TV now, and the newspapers
:34:01. > :34:04.won't make good of this too. you happy to be rid of British
:34:04. > :34:10.politicians? I make no comment on that, that is a very interesting
:34:10. > :34:13.point you make about Murdochs quitting newspapers. It is long
:34:13. > :34:19.been thought within News International that the son, James,
:34:19. > :34:23.has absolutely no interest in the newspapers. That he will devest
:34:23. > :34:25.himself of them when the time comes. That is why the Murdochs have
:34:25. > :34:31.exploded this bomb in the Government's court today.
:34:31. > :34:36.Thank you very much indeed. Over the next seven days two women
:34:36. > :34:40.will be killed by their partners or ex-partners, the group most at risk
:34:40. > :34:43.of violent relationships, according to the Director of Public
:34:43. > :34:48.Prosecutions s teenage girls. A survey by the NSPCC, found one in
:34:48. > :34:51.four teenagers has been physically abused by their partner. Currently,
:34:51. > :34:55.domestic violence relates to something that happens between
:34:55. > :35:00.adults, the Government is thinking of applying it to under 18s because
:35:00. > :35:05.of the gap in services. One young woman who experienced it first hand
:35:05. > :35:09.is Taylah Douglas, this is her story.
:35:09. > :35:19.When I first met him it was good, he was my first proper boyfriend.
:35:19. > :35:24.
:35:24. > :35:28.He properly turned into a different person about two or three months
:35:28. > :35:35.into the relationship. He would call me a bitch, and call me ugly,
:35:35. > :35:43.and call me fat, he would call me a slut. He started to push me, and
:35:43. > :35:47.pull me, and he started to hit me really, like, burn me with lighters,
:35:47. > :35:52.and then it got on to hitting, punching and slapping. He told me
:35:52. > :35:55.that I couldn't go back home. He took away my phone, even if I
:35:55. > :36:00.wanted to go back, I couldn't call anyone, I had no money for train
:36:00. > :36:05.ticket. I felt isolated, I felt completely aown. I just woke up one
:36:05. > :36:08.day and -- alone. I just woke up one day and I felt different, I
:36:08. > :36:13.knew if I didn't leave it would end up in a really bad way, I didn't
:36:13. > :36:17.know if he was going to kill me or what was going to happen. The day I
:36:17. > :36:21.did escape, I didn't take anything with me, I just got out of there. I
:36:21. > :36:25.went to the council, when they first offered me housing, they
:36:25. > :36:35.offered me a bed and breakfast, which was on the same road as my
:36:35. > :36:42.
:36:42. > :36:46.I had to move, all together, seven times, I went to certain hostels
:36:46. > :36:49.more than once, I moved all together several times, every time
:36:49. > :36:54.I have moved he has found me. In one of my hostels he showed up and
:36:54. > :36:58.forced his way in, and he threw a microwave at my head. He went
:36:58. > :37:01.unconscious, and I was probably unconscious for a couple of minutes,
:37:01. > :37:05.not very long, but enough to wake up and I was on the other side of
:37:06. > :37:14.the room, and he was just stamping all over me on my head, on my body,
:37:14. > :37:18.and then I kept going in and out of consciousness.
:37:18. > :37:23.The nurse said that she was going to have to contact the police, and
:37:23. > :37:26.I told her I didn't want her to, I told her I wanted to go home, and
:37:26. > :37:30.the police turned up any way. They said they were going to go to his
:37:30. > :37:36.address and find him, if they found him, arrest him. But they didn't
:37:36. > :37:39.find him, that was the end of it. Did the police offer you any other
:37:39. > :37:49.help, like counselling, social services? No they never offered me
:37:49. > :37:50.
:37:50. > :37:54.anything, the police didn't offer me any sort of other help.
:37:54. > :37:58.I was never offered a refuge. you even know about it? I didn't
:37:58. > :38:07.even know what a refuge was until now. I didn't know what a refuge
:38:07. > :38:12.was. Some of the hostels I stayed in were disgusting, there were drug
:38:12. > :38:17.needles, in the bathrooms. I was living at one point inbetween a
:38:17. > :38:20.crack head and a prostitute. You are only supposed to live in
:38:20. > :38:30.emergency accommodation, which is bed and breakfast, or three months,
:38:30. > :38:32.
:38:32. > :38:37.I had been there for three years. When all this happened to me, I
:38:37. > :38:43.felt very alone. I didn't realise how common my experience was. I
:38:43. > :38:48.want to know what can be done to help teenagers like me. I have come
:38:48. > :38:55.to meet a girl who was in a same- sex relationship, she felt so
:38:55. > :39:03.trapped by the abuse, that she ended up harming herself.
:39:03. > :39:08.I started cutting myself, I drunk bleach at one point, where me and
:39:08. > :39:12.my ex-girlfriend had an argument, and I drunk bleach, I thought,
:39:12. > :39:18.that's going to watch away my problems, bleach burns, that will
:39:19. > :39:28.wash away my problems. So I took the bleach, and then I got sent to
:39:29. > :39:32.
:39:32. > :39:36.hospital. In one incident Armani was threatened at knife-point by
:39:36. > :39:39.her girlfriend, she didn't want the police to be involved. I felt like
:39:39. > :39:44.it wasn't necessary, it wasn't relevant for the police to be
:39:44. > :39:49.involved, it would cause more drama. I personally don't like police.
:39:49. > :39:54.There is a lack of trust for the police? Unlike Armani, eventually
:39:54. > :39:59.after months of abuse, I did get the police involved. I called the
:39:59. > :40:02.police at least 15 times, I wanted them to help me protect myself from
:40:02. > :40:06.my ex-boyfriend, I didn't want to press charges because I was too
:40:06. > :40:09.scared, now you want to know why nothing was done.
:40:09. > :40:16.The Chief Constable in charge of domestic abuse nationally has
:40:16. > :40:22.agreed to meet me. I called the police 20 times and he
:40:22. > :40:26.only got arrested once, he was held in a cell overnight but released
:40:26. > :40:31.the next morning. Since then nothing has happened, do you think
:40:31. > :40:34.the police take domestic violence seriously when it is a 16-year-old
:40:34. > :40:37.boy hitting a 16-year-old girl? think your story shows we have a
:40:37. > :40:40.lot to do in relation to getting police officers to understand.
:40:40. > :40:45.Actually young people are in relationships at a lot younger age,
:40:45. > :40:47.and to understand that this is not acceptable, whatever the age, and
:40:47. > :40:51.that's the work that I'm doing right the way across the police
:40:51. > :40:54.service in England and Wales, to actually get a training programme
:40:54. > :40:59.in place. Sometimes the police asked me in front of my ex-
:40:59. > :41:04.boyfriend, what I wanted to do, if I wanted to press charges? I didn't
:41:04. > :41:07.want to say anything in front of my ex-boyfriend, as it is a really
:41:08. > :41:12.awkward situation. Do you not think it is wrong to ask the victim in
:41:12. > :41:16.front of the attacker? For me that is basic common sense, that you
:41:16. > :41:20.wouldn't ask somebody such a question in front of someone else.
:41:20. > :41:23.What else can they say? Even if I didn't want to press charges, isn't
:41:23. > :41:27.it the case that the police are supposed to pursue the
:41:27. > :41:30.investigation any way? Yes, they are. Because you have made an
:41:31. > :41:35.allegation of crime. Actually you have made an allegation against
:41:35. > :41:41.somebody, which is serious, we know from the evidence base and the
:41:41. > :41:46.training tells us, that unless we respond then quite often people
:41:46. > :41:50.become repeat victims. She told me about new policies the police are
:41:50. > :41:54.working on. We are doing work with the Home Office to propose we
:41:54. > :41:58.reduce the common definition of domestic abuse to also include
:41:58. > :42:02.young people right down to the age of 16. We are piloting a thing
:42:02. > :42:06.called Domestic Violence Protection Orders, which removes the
:42:06. > :42:16.individual, the perpetrator from the home, which enables property
:42:16. > :42:17.
:42:17. > :42:20.safety planning and the victim to make choices over a period of time.
:42:20. > :42:25.The Government says it is spending �28 million on domestic violence
:42:26. > :42:30.services, but in the last year they have seen big cuts by local
:42:30. > :42:35.authorities. How is the Government going to help people like me when
:42:35. > :42:41.services are being cut? I'm here at the House of Commons, to talk to
:42:41. > :42:45.the minister, Lynne Featherstone, I want to talk to her about my
:42:45. > :42:49.experience of domestic violence and talk to her about shou she and the
:42:49. > :42:53.Government will help other young women. I'm really nervous,
:42:53. > :42:57.hopefully my nerves will turn into excitement and it will go well. Do
:42:57. > :43:01.you recognise there has been cuts and that there will be more?
:43:01. > :43:05.Obviously this Government and the coalition of left with the biggest
:43:05. > :43:11.deficit since the war. So, yes, there have been Government cuts,
:43:11. > :43:15.but, as I said, we have ring-fenced �28 million of Home Office funding,
:43:15. > :43:18.and �10 million of the Ministry of Justice funding, to support
:43:18. > :43:24.services, to send out a message to local authorities, who actually do
:43:24. > :43:30.most of the funding, to the violence against women charities
:43:30. > :43:39.and support services, to say, don't cut this, this is a vulnerable
:43:40. > :43:45.sector. Women's Aid reckon the refuges face cuts, do you think
:43:45. > :43:48.cutting that will help women like me? Of course not. The Government
:43:48. > :43:51.has ring-fenced spending to set an example, it has never been done in
:43:51. > :43:54.the Home Office before, never ring- fenced that amount of money to say
:43:54. > :43:58.this is really important, because girls like you are so vulnerable.
:43:58. > :44:01.I'm really sorry that there is hard times going on, but it is not just
:44:01. > :44:06.the Government, we have all got to play our part in this, local
:44:06. > :44:09.authorities included. Whoever is responsible for
:44:09. > :44:15.providing support for girls in abusive relationships, for some,
:44:15. > :44:24.help comes too late. This is Cassie, we were friends in
:44:24. > :44:28.Germany. Here she is again. Jennifer's daughter, Cassandra, was
:44:29. > :44:33.killed by her ex-boyfriend, it took seven years to bring him to justice
:44:33. > :44:40.t and only after he attempted to murder nearly Gill friend.
:44:40. > :44:45.death has actually destroyed me as a person, as a mum. -- another
:44:45. > :44:51.girlfriend. Her death has actually destroyed me as a person. As a mum.
:44:51. > :44:54.The impact it has on her friends and sisters, and on the community.
:44:54. > :44:58.Now Jennifer runs the Cassandra Learning Centre, helping other
:44:58. > :45:03.girls just like me. What do you feel when you meet someone like me,
:45:03. > :45:12.in a similar situation to your daughter? My immediate feelings is
:45:12. > :45:20.to smother you with everything a mother would do. To protect you and
:45:20. > :45:25.to give you all the information that I can to keep you safe. Just
:45:25. > :45:33.to make sure you don't go through that hurt, that pain.
:45:33. > :45:43.You looks a if you are going to cry. Sorry.
:45:43. > :45:45.
:45:45. > :45:49.Let me love you. It's OK. You're alive. OK.
:45:49. > :45:53.What shocked me making the film was how common what I went through is,
:45:53. > :45:56.and what really shocked me is how many girls and women end up dead. I
:45:56. > :46:03.think that Jennifer is really an amazing woman. When her daughter
:46:03. > :46:07.died she could have given up, but instead, she used her knowledge and
:46:07. > :46:10.her grief to help other people like me. I appreciated meeting the
:46:10. > :46:13.minister, and I appreciated meeting the police as well. I just hope
:46:13. > :46:16.that everything they promised they can pull through with. I think that
:46:16. > :46:20.it will really help people in the future, so that no-one has to go
:46:20. > :46:25.through what I went through. Taylah Douglas making that film for
:46:25. > :46:35.Let's take you through the front pages of the Telegraph. The same
:46:35. > :47:08.
:47:08. > :47:18.That's all from Newsnight tonight, plenty more tomorrow, very good
:47:18. > :47:22.
:47:22. > :47:27.Another spell of wet and windy weather to sweep across the country.
:47:27. > :47:31.It starts overnight, the strongest gusts along the south coast, the
:47:31. > :47:36.strong winds blow the rain further north throughout the day. Dry
:47:36. > :47:41.brighter spells in parts of western Scotland. After a dry start
:47:41. > :47:45.northern England turns soggy. Cool in the east with a strong wind off
:47:45. > :47:49.the North Sea. Some pretty vicious afternoon showers, torrential
:47:49. > :47:53.downpours, hail and thunder, likely to be mixed in. Frequent showers
:47:53. > :47:57.across the south west of England, the winds actually falling lighter
:47:57. > :48:02.through the afternoon, after a blustery morning. Gusty throughout
:48:02. > :48:06.the day. Further outbreaks of heavy rain, followed by lively storms.
:48:06. > :48:10.The wet weather reaching the south west corner of Northern Ireland.
:48:10. > :48:14.Sunny intervals, showers, the mixture too across Scotland. With
:48:14. > :48:17.the best of the dry and bright weather across Scotland. We're not
:48:17. > :48:20.done there. More wet weather, particularly across north-east
:48:20. > :48:24.England and eastern Scotland again on Thursday. Again it will feel
:48:24. > :48:28.cool, with the outbreaks of rain. Further south, again that mixture
:48:28. > :48:31.of sunshine and showers on Thursday. Likely to see some fairly lively
:48:31. > :48:35.downpours once more, hail and thunder can't be ruled out. It will