:00:12. > :00:16.Tonight, is there a different way of tackling the economic crisis
:00:16. > :00:21.across Europe, the man who looks set to be the next President of
:00:21. > :00:25.France says he will end Germany's austerity plans for the continent.
:00:25. > :00:30.But Berlin insisted again tonight that austerity is the only way to
:00:30. > :00:34.save the euro. What would a stand- off between France and Germany mean
:00:34. > :00:44.for Europe. And with it the incomes of jobs, millions of people, and
:00:44. > :00:45.
:00:45. > :00:50.yes that probably includes all of Can we believe ministers when they
:00:50. > :00:54.insist airport chaos is just the bad weather. Insiders say elsewhere.
:00:54. > :00:57.We hear of Government plans to help parents, how do they promise to cut
:00:57. > :01:01.red tape for employers. This Government thinks they are doing a
:01:01. > :01:05.lot to get troubled families on to the straight and narrow. They admit
:01:05. > :01:07.privately they are not doing quite as much to help those families
:01:07. > :01:11.already on the straight and narrow stay there.
:01:11. > :01:15.Cleared from the streets, but back as street theatre, how The Oxford
:01:15. > :01:22.Murders movement is trying to spread its mess -- the Occupy
:01:22. > :01:26.movement is trying to spread message through art. I'm producing
:01:26. > :01:35.a functional piece of work that will be repasted on buildings and
:01:35. > :01:40.held up by demonstrators. Across the wires, the electric message
:01:40. > :01:43.came, the euro is no better. It is much the same. Tonight, the German
:01:43. > :01:48.Finance Minister repeated his country's insistence that there is
:01:48. > :01:51.no real alternative to austerity. But if we believe Francois Hollande,
:01:51. > :01:55.the socialist candidate, plodding his way ever closer to the
:01:55. > :01:59.presidency of France, there is. He claims to offer the whole of Europe,
:01:59. > :02:03.an alternative to the harsh medicine prescribed by the Germans.
:02:03. > :02:08.On the day when official figures show Spain back mired in recession,
:02:08. > :02:15.it is a siren call, but already the men and women who make-or-break
:02:15. > :02:19.currencies are troubled. Mark Urban reports.
:02:19. > :02:23.European nationalism, alliances and stereotypes were largely defined in
:02:23. > :02:27.the 19th century. Prussia triumphant, having beaten France in
:02:27. > :02:31.1871, formed the core of mighty Germany.
:02:32. > :02:35.Napoleon is depicted here, thrown completely in the shade by the
:02:35. > :02:41.Kaiser. Today's contest for leadership is
:02:41. > :02:44.more subtle, and thankfully less violent. In pledging to renegotiate
:02:44. > :02:49.Europe's physical compact, the presidential hopeful, Francois
:02:50. > :02:54.Hollande, is throwing down the gauntlet to today's Chancellor.
:02:54. > :02:58.TRANSLATION: I know people look at me beyond our borders, my next
:02:58. > :03:08.frontier will be to offer a reorientation of Europe towards
:03:08. > :03:11.
:03:11. > :03:18.growth and employment. Thanks to you, this evening, the
:03:18. > :03:22.change is now moving ahead, and I am saying nothing will stop it.
:03:22. > :03:27.The Merkozy model of Franco German partnership played a key role in
:03:27. > :03:30.stablising the euro last year. But today many French seem to count
:03:30. > :03:34.that closeness to Chancellor Mercury and her austerity plans,
:03:35. > :03:39.against Mr Sarkozy. Putting forward a new model of growth through
:03:39. > :03:46.stimulus, more borrowing, the challenger sees a way to exert
:03:46. > :03:50.French leadership once more. have had Merkozy, we are going to
:03:50. > :03:54.have something else, in a sense that France and Germany must be
:03:54. > :04:01.leading and they have to agree, if they don't agree there is no way
:04:01. > :04:06.forward for Europe. This is the duo, that is the basis of Europe, and of
:04:06. > :04:10.the eurozone. So they have to agree, and perhaps Angela Merkel will have
:04:10. > :04:19.to listen to Francois Hollande. More than she has listened so far
:04:19. > :04:23.to Nicolas Sarkozy. Back in the 19th century, alliances
:04:23. > :04:29.shifted frequently, great powers swipt swept up lesser ones in their
:04:29. > :04:33.trail. Germany seen here capturing the Spanish senorita, while France
:04:33. > :04:37.looked on angrily. The man polls predict will become French
:04:37. > :04:42.President on Sunday, sees the growth issue as a chance to use
:04:42. > :04:47.France's Mediterranean influence, to lead a bloc, including Spain,
:04:47. > :04:52.Italy and Greece, something Germany could take a dim view of.
:04:52. > :04:57.I don't think it would be a viable strategy for Hollande to try to
:04:57. > :05:02.form a southern European bloc against Germany. Germany and France
:05:02. > :05:05.need to work together. If France were to align too much with the
:05:05. > :05:08.eurozone periphery, markets may actually start to treat France as
:05:08. > :05:13.part of the eurozone periphery, which is something which France
:05:13. > :05:17.would not want. And which, if it were to happen, would probably
:05:17. > :05:22.force France immediately to return to the core European line, which is,
:05:22. > :05:28.we need some fiscal rigour, we can add growth to that, but without
:05:28. > :05:33.some austerity, things can't be kept together. In more violent
:05:33. > :05:38.times, one French cartoonist drew this charicature of the German
:05:38. > :05:42.savings bank. It is, though, the industrial might of Germany that
:05:42. > :05:46.even today causes uncomfortable feelings in France about its
:05:46. > :05:50.neighbours' economic power. Even so, few French politicians are willing
:05:50. > :05:53.to concede the point that they have fallen behind Germany more
:05:53. > :05:57.generally. I would say that Germany has always
:05:57. > :06:01.been in the driving seat in terms of economic and monetary issues,
:06:01. > :06:05.always. France was in the driving seat for political and military
:06:06. > :06:09.issues, it is still the fact, nothing new. There is no way out of
:06:09. > :06:13.the crisis for Germany without France, and there is no way out of
:06:13. > :06:17.a crisis for France without Germany. Would the election of Hollande
:06:17. > :06:20.produce a car crash with Germany? Well, there is a well-oiled
:06:20. > :06:26.diplomatic and EU policy machine that will do its very best to
:06:26. > :06:30.prevent that happening, or appearing to happen. Lo and behold
:06:30. > :06:35.Mrs Mercury in recent days has been saying she believes more spending
:06:35. > :06:39.is needed to stimulate growth. Make no mistake, there are fundamental
:06:39. > :06:43.differences of view between socialist President, and austere
:06:43. > :06:48.Chancellor. The days of Merkozy would be over, relations would have
:06:48. > :06:53.to be reset. As for those watching France from
:06:53. > :06:56.this side of the channel, a Hollande victory could present good
:06:56. > :07:00.opportunities for the City or British diplomacy. But those could
:07:00. > :07:09.easily be outweighed by new dramas in the eurozone that could stall
:07:09. > :07:14.recovery. From Paris we have the socialist
:07:14. > :07:21.our guest, and in the studio our guests. The former editor of the
:07:21. > :07:26.economist is one of our guests. Is Francois Hollande serious when
:07:26. > :07:32.he says there could be a new direction, as an alternative to
:07:32. > :07:41.austerity? I think this is exactly part of the mandate he's asking for
:07:41. > :07:43.the French people. But there has to be no misunderstanding. He has
:07:43. > :07:49.consistently been in favour of fiscal discipline. He also knows,
:07:49. > :07:52.and this is what he tried to get a mandate for, that you cannot reach
:07:52. > :07:59.consistent fiscal discipline, if you are not going at the same time
:07:59. > :08:03.to stimulate growth. This means to create some room for manoeuvre,
:08:03. > :08:09.some margin for manoeuvre, to make sure you can restore your capacity
:08:09. > :08:14.for fiscal discipline. What is at stake here? What is at stake is
:08:14. > :08:17.Germany's insistence on austerity for everyone else, and them being
:08:17. > :08:22.un willing to pay for it. There is only one way to stimulate growth,
:08:22. > :08:27.and that is to have those who are good credit risks with low
:08:27. > :08:30.borrowing costs, that means Germany, the Netherlands and other northern
:08:30. > :08:33.Europeans, borrowing and spending more. For France to say we want
:08:33. > :08:37.more growth is all very well, that is great, but somebody else will
:08:37. > :08:46.have to bring it. France is not going to be able to do it on its
:08:46. > :08:51.own. What do you think is at -- What do you think is at stake here?
:08:51. > :08:54.We have to go back to the core of the problem, why do we have no or
:08:54. > :08:57.limited growth? According to Bill this is because Governments are not
:08:57. > :09:00.spending enough, at least those Governments who could spend. In my
:09:00. > :09:05.view that is not the issue. I think growth comes from many other
:09:05. > :09:08.sources, many other opportunities, and we have very severe blocs in
:09:08. > :09:14.Europe that are preventing growth from happening. When Francois
:09:14. > :09:18.Hollande says he's going to offer Europe a new mouldle, an
:09:18. > :09:22.alternative to -- model, an alternative to austerity, is he
:09:22. > :09:25.whistling in the wind? I like his commitment to fiscal growth and
:09:25. > :09:29.discipline, this leaves the opportunity for action on other
:09:29. > :09:32.fields, which is very much needed. In my view, the key factor that is
:09:32. > :09:40.blocking growth in Europe is all the problems in the banking sector.
:09:40. > :09:42.The fact that when you have fiscal consolidation, can you have a very
:09:42. > :09:45.relaxed monetary position and conditions for people to borrow.
:09:45. > :09:47.This is not happening in Europe. The European Central Bank is
:09:47. > :09:52.helping, it is flooding Europe with liquidity, this is not trickling
:09:52. > :09:56.down to the firms and people who need it. What has gone wrong?
:09:56. > :09:59.banking sector is in terrible shape, as everybody knows. Very little is
:09:59. > :10:03.being done to solve that problem. If Hollande can make a contribution
:10:03. > :10:08.on that front, that will be most welcome. It is interesting, isn't
:10:09. > :10:11.it, it isn't just confined to the march of the socialist candidate in
:10:11. > :10:16.the French presidential election, you can see the Government fall in
:10:16. > :10:20.Holland, protests on the streets in Spain. It is a really interesting
:10:20. > :10:26.phenomenon, isn't it, that seems to be spread right throughout the
:10:26. > :10:30.eurozone? I think that Throughout the eurozone people feel there is a
:10:30. > :10:37.loss of hope and some loss of sanity. I think that the austerity
:10:37. > :10:41.has become a sort of mantra without a purpose. It has gone too far in
:10:41. > :10:46.some countries, including the negligent of the banking system.
:10:46. > :10:50.Where -- neglect of the banking system. I would gree that the banks
:10:50. > :10:53.are part of the problem, banks holding this debt think it is not
:10:53. > :10:57.worth anything and cutting lending, and it is causing the credit crunch.
:10:57. > :11:00.What is the solution, recapitalisation of banks, partly
:11:00. > :11:05.by Governments, I'm afraid. So, there is a feeling that we're
:11:05. > :11:08.trapped, or Europe is trapped in a vicious circle, and the extremes
:11:08. > :11:12.are benefiting because everyone says, my God, there is only one way
:11:12. > :11:17.to go, but it seems to be down. Therefore, the extremes are
:11:17. > :11:21.offering the only protest alternative. Like UKIP in the UK.
:11:22. > :11:26.Do you think that France is, even whatever monsieur Hollande says
:11:26. > :11:32.about offering an example and a new model for the rest of Europe,
:11:32. > :11:36.France doesn't have the capacity to lead any kind of rebellion against
:11:36. > :11:39.prevailing orthodoxy, does it? is not a question of rebellion, it
:11:39. > :11:48.is a question of sustainability of the economic policy that has been
:11:48. > :11:52.proposed. Obviously for some months and even some years, the outgoing
:11:52. > :11:58.French President, Nicolas Sarkozy, didn't resist, or didn't propose
:11:58. > :12:08.any challenge to alternative strategies to what Angela Merkel
:12:08. > :12:09.
:12:09. > :12:15.was proposing. This was written down obviously in the do youville -
:12:15. > :12:19.- Doville summit in 20067, where they settled a pact to gather
:12:20. > :12:27.October 2010. Now you can see that each country that is in a difficult
:12:27. > :12:33.position, doesn't dare to come out with an alternative, they are only
:12:33. > :12:37.saying OK to what is the too late and too little solution proposed in
:12:37. > :12:43.the end by Germany. One thing that is very important all through this
:12:43. > :12:50.crisis, is that obviously the euro is an important asset for Germany,
:12:50. > :12:57.this is why, in the end, they accept to act where they have to.
:12:57. > :13:03.They do it too little and too late. So I think...Let Me just bring in
:13:03. > :13:08.the studio here. What many people see happening here is a rebellion
:13:08. > :13:13.of democrats against technocrats? No, I don't agree with that at all.
:13:13. > :13:17.What you are seeing in Europe today, for example, in Holland, as Bill
:13:17. > :13:21.mentioned, is that people disagree about how to get to the objective,
:13:21. > :13:26.but nobody questions that we have got to get our public finances in
:13:26. > :13:30.order. There is a huge consensus on this. Everybody wants to get there,
:13:30. > :13:33.but the public aren't prepared to put up with the cost that is being
:13:33. > :13:36.imposed upon them in austerity? These are democracies, therefore
:13:36. > :13:39.there is a lot of fighting on how to get there. But the general
:13:39. > :13:43.movement is very clear. Take the case of Italy, for example, where
:13:43. > :13:47.you have a called technocratic Government, it is a Government that
:13:47. > :13:51.has more popular support than any previous one. That is a very good
:13:51. > :13:57.example that even in the extraordinary case of Greece, the
:13:57. > :14:02.Prime Minister, papedpapedpaped, always makes the point that two-
:14:02. > :14:08.thirds of the people support the IMF programme, even though you see
:14:08. > :14:13.protests on the streets every day. What do you make of the point that
:14:13. > :14:15.these technocrat Governments have more popular support than elected
:14:16. > :14:20.Governments? There is a disenchantment with politicians
:14:20. > :14:23.everywhere, if somebody comes in, who steams clean, intelligent and
:14:23. > :14:29.well meaning, you will back him for a while. But I don't think it is
:14:29. > :14:32.sustainable for a very long time. I think it is possible Mario Monti in
:14:32. > :14:35.Italy could continue as Prime Minister for another few years,
:14:35. > :14:42.actually, even after an election, this isn't the way that politics
:14:42. > :14:46.can work permanently. I think a lot of the trouble is countries who
:14:46. > :14:51.have small debts, like the Netherlands, are being made to cut.
:14:52. > :15:01.Cutting has become an ideology, like most idea olgs, it can go
:15:01. > :15:06.beyond good reason. With all this questioning of what
:15:06. > :15:09.the eurocrisis is, what is it doing to the euro itself? As a currency
:15:09. > :15:14.the euro is strong, stable, it commends a lot of confidence, it is
:15:14. > :15:19.amazing, isn't it. Well, I think it is a mistake to look at the
:15:19. > :15:22.exchange rate to see how the health of the euro. The basic health of
:15:22. > :15:26.the euro is European Governments still want it. In that sense he's
:15:26. > :15:31.right. These Governments are not going to give up the euro,
:15:31. > :15:40.including Francois Hollande. But, the euro has got serious problems,
:15:41. > :15:46.which namely, like a body, it has some gang rouse limbs, one of them
:15:46. > :15:50.-- gangrene limbs, like Greece, it will cut that off. The will to
:15:50. > :15:55.survive the euro is incredibly strong. British euro-sceptics often
:15:55. > :15:59.underestimate the determination to keep the euro.
:15:59. > :16:02.Now, what is everyone moaning about, they only had to wait for up to an
:16:02. > :16:06.hour-and-a-half, that was the burden of the Immigration
:16:06. > :16:10.Minister's excuse for the lengthy queues which have greeted visitors
:16:10. > :16:15.to Britain in the last few days. It was mainly the fault of the weather,
:16:15. > :16:17.he said. Not an excuse that cut much ice with opponents, who
:16:17. > :16:26.pointed out it wasn't a great advertisment for the country,
:16:26. > :16:32.particularly on the eve of the Olympics.
:16:32. > :16:37.Welcome to Britain. London may be the world's most
:16:37. > :16:42.popular destination for foreign visitors, but the dissent from blue
:16:42. > :16:47.skies to Heathrow mayhem can be -- descent from blue skies to Heathrow
:16:47. > :16:52.mayhem can be hard. Last week some passengers rebelled. A lot of Brits
:16:52. > :16:57.in the queue like queuing, we put up with it, we see we're inching
:16:57. > :17:01.slowly towards the right part of the building, but it was very
:17:01. > :17:05.frustrating, phone calls being made, cars being told to go away. The
:17:05. > :17:08.people at the desk were clearly stretched, some were summoned from
:17:08. > :17:12.another part of the airport to help out. It was a problem of volume,
:17:12. > :17:19.too many people, not enough people to deal with them.
:17:19. > :17:22.To the fury of the UK Border Agency, the airports authority put out a
:17:22. > :17:32.leaflet telling passengers to complain to the Government. Today
:17:32. > :17:45.
:17:45. > :17:50.in a statement the authority The political pressure to deliver
:17:50. > :17:53.both is mounting. The scenes at Heathrow are deeply
:17:53. > :17:59.embarrassing. Damaging to the reputation of the country. Damaging
:17:59. > :18:03.to the standing of London as a world class city. This is supposed
:18:03. > :18:07.to be a hub for international travel, people are supposed to be
:18:07. > :18:11.able to arrive pre-Olympics, at Heathrow Airport, have their
:18:11. > :18:17.passports checked in a reasonable time, and then go about their daily
:18:17. > :18:20.business. The risk is, with disgraceful scenes of this kind,
:18:20. > :18:25.that people just won't bother to come to London. Insiders at the
:18:25. > :18:30.Border Agency say it has been hit by three separate problems. One
:18:30. > :18:33.financial, one technical, and one political. The first is an
:18:33. > :18:38.increasing shortage of staff. The Home Office is thought to be
:18:38. > :18:47.planning to cut the number of Border Force officers by more than
:18:47. > :18:50.1500, from 8,874 in March 2010, to 7,322 in March 2015.
:18:50. > :18:56.Though it wouldn't confirm that tonight. Newsnight understands
:18:56. > :19:00.about 100 have lost their jobs at Heathrow in the past 18 months. Out
:19:00. > :19:04.of about 400 jobs nationally others have gone from sickness and
:19:04. > :19:09.retirement. After 10.00pm, I understand, there are often only
:19:09. > :19:12.five or six immigration officers on the border at some Heathrow
:19:12. > :19:16.terminals, a year ago there would have been twice as many. The
:19:16. > :19:21.Government hoped that fewer staff would be needed, as it proceeded
:19:21. > :19:24.with its e-borders programme, to log all the arrivals and departures
:19:24. > :19:28.electronically. That is where the technical problems kicked in. The
:19:28. > :19:33.contract to deliver the programme was terminated almost two years ago,
:19:33. > :19:38.amid a dispute with the company involved. In the meantime, existing
:19:38. > :19:40.scanning equipment has become increasingly outdated and
:19:40. > :19:45.unreliable. The third political problem arose
:19:45. > :19:49.out of a row between the Home Secretary, Theresa May, and the
:19:49. > :19:53.former head of the borders force, Brodie Clarke, he was piloting a
:19:53. > :19:57.new system, where checks would be more targeted, concentrating on
:19:57. > :20:01.passengers considered to be a higher security risk. But he
:20:01. > :20:05.resigned amid accusations he denied that he had relaxed some checks
:20:05. > :20:09.without ministerial consent. Risk- based controls were suspended.
:20:09. > :20:12.But the Government insisted today the resulting staffing problems can
:20:12. > :20:18.be overcome. We're establishing a new central control room for Border
:20:18. > :20:22.Force at Heathrow. We are putting in place mobile teams that can be
:20:22. > :20:28.deployed rapidly across the airport to deal with pressures. Within
:20:28. > :20:32.weeks we will implement new rostering and shift patterns. This
:20:32. > :20:37.will provided a decisional flexible capacity, to meet unexpected surges
:20:37. > :20:41.in passenger flows. Not all around the house were convinced?
:20:41. > :20:45.Green's idea of a flying squad needs to be examined. I'm not sure
:20:45. > :20:49.this will be more than a plaster over a very big wound that has
:20:49. > :20:53.opened up in our reputation as a world class city, and Heathrow as a
:20:53. > :20:58.world class airport. Think we will need to look at the practicalities
:20:58. > :21:01.of how they operate. The issue is, immigration officers have most of
:21:01. > :21:04.this information before the passenger even lands. I'm not sure
:21:04. > :21:08.whether moving people between terminals will be the answer. When
:21:08. > :21:11.the information is with them, they should be able to isolate the
:21:11. > :21:15.aircraft, and isolate individual people.
:21:15. > :21:21.The Government says the vast majority of passengers are
:21:21. > :21:26.processed within target times. 25 minutes for European Union arrivals,
:21:26. > :21:29.45 for non-ones. Airports will cope, it says, with the Olympic rush. If
:21:29. > :21:36.that prediction is wrong, there will be yet another in a long
:21:36. > :21:40.series of scandals over border controls.
:21:40. > :21:43.Those whom the gods wish to preserve, they first make the
:21:43. > :21:46.subject of a summons from the speaker of the Commons. The Prime
:21:46. > :21:49.Minister was dragged to parliament today to answer an emergency
:21:49. > :21:53.question from the leader of the opposition, about what the Culture
:21:53. > :21:56.Secretary had been up to, when he had to decide whether Rupert
:21:56. > :22:03.Murdoch's News Corporation could take over BSkyB. The Prime Minister
:22:03. > :22:08.hugged him close, Hunt, that is, we didn't learn anything new. We did
:22:08. > :22:11.see a pretty cross David Cameron. David Grossman was within shouting
:22:11. > :22:13.distance. What have we learned today? Nothing new at all. No new
:22:13. > :22:17.questions were raised in the mind of the Government about what went
:22:17. > :22:21.on. What we did learn was David Cameron got very, very angry today
:22:22. > :22:25.about being dragged back to parliament. He wanted to be in
:22:25. > :22:30.Milton Keynes today campaigning for the local election, instead he
:22:30. > :22:34.found himself facing these questions from the leader of the
:22:34. > :22:38.opposition. That anger found itself directed towards the leader of the
:22:38. > :22:42.opposition, and any Labour MP who stood up and had a go. It was a lot
:22:42. > :22:45.of displaysment anger, largely, at the Speaker, nobody blames the
:22:45. > :22:48.leader of the opposition for having a go, trying to get David Cameron
:22:48. > :22:51.or the Prime Minister of the day dragged back to the Commons to
:22:51. > :22:54.answer a question, it is very rare for this to happen, it is very rare
:22:54. > :23:00.for a Speaker to grant such a request. The last time was
:23:00. > :23:06.something like ten years ago. We got a lot of folders being slammed
:23:06. > :23:10.down on the despatch box and fingers jabd at Labour MPs. The
:23:10. > :23:12.Prime Minister is defending the indefensible and he knows it.
:23:12. > :23:16.Protecting the Culture Secretary's job, while up and down the
:23:16. > :23:20.countries hundreds and thousands are losing their's, and we all know
:23:20. > :23:25.why, the special adviser had to go to protect the Culture Secretary,
:23:25. > :23:30.the Culture Secretary has to stay to protect the Prime Minister. The
:23:30. > :23:38.Prime Minister has shown today he is incapable of doing his duty, too
:23:38. > :23:48.close to a powerful few, out-of- touch with everyone else. Weak and
:23:48. > :23:51.wrong, that's what we heard. First of all, 15 years of secret meetings,
:23:51. > :23:54.pyjama parties, Christenings and all the rest of it, not one word of
:23:54. > :23:58.apology. While we are on the subject of ministers taking
:23:58. > :24:03.responsibility for their special advisers, can anyone remember a
:24:03. > :24:05.minister taking responsibility for Charley Whelan, anyone remember
:24:05. > :24:10.that? Can you remember anyone taking responsibility for Damian
:24:10. > :24:15.McBride, remember that? What a lot of self-serving, double-standards
:24:15. > :24:18.we had from the party opposite. was cross, wasn't he, the other
:24:18. > :24:22.funny thing about that, there wasn't a single Lib Dem in this
:24:22. > :24:31.coalition Government to be seen there? It wasn't particularly
:24:31. > :24:34.evidence today, there was a behind the speaker's chair, they didn't
:24:34. > :24:38.want to be in the firing line for it. It is a few days before the
:24:38. > :24:43.local elections and they are trying to do their best to preserve poll
:24:43. > :24:49.ratings in all of this. Where they did stand up they weren't helpful.
:24:49. > :24:54.Simon Hughes saying this should go before Allan, the independent
:24:55. > :24:58.adviser on the Ministerial Code. He was politely rebuffed, David
:24:58. > :25:01.Cameron treating the Liberal Democrats with more curtesy then.
:25:01. > :25:06.The select committee reporting on hacking tomorrow? This is the one
:25:06. > :25:11.where Rupert Murdoch got the pie in the face. This is the parliamentary
:25:11. > :25:14.media and sport select committee. Expect it to be very critical
:25:14. > :25:17.tomorrow of News International, News of the World executives, for
:25:17. > :25:22.engaging in what some would regard as a cover-up. Crucially for the
:25:22. > :25:25.Government, this isn't their fault, nobody can blame them, it doesn't
:25:25. > :25:28.deal with Jeremy Hunt or BSkyB, it is all about what happened at News
:25:28. > :25:30.of the World and under the previous Government. There is not a working
:25:30. > :25:35.mother in the country unaware of the difficulty of some how
:25:35. > :25:37.balancing the need of children with the needs of work. Newsnight has
:25:37. > :25:41.learned that ministers are considering ways of trying to make
:25:41. > :25:44.the balancing act easier. If they achieve anything, it could also
:25:44. > :25:49.have political dividends, of course. The initiatives being considered
:25:49. > :25:53.apply also to the other half of the parental couple. Are they practical.
:25:53. > :26:00.From a Government which promised to cut red tape in business.
:26:00. > :26:04.Our political editor reports from Glasgow.
:26:04. > :26:09.A special of baby yoga in Glasgow, a class set up by a mum struggling
:26:09. > :26:13.to figure out how to make money, while bringing up baby.
:26:13. > :26:16.Contorting a career to fit around the demands of childcare has been
:26:16. > :26:19.something successive Governments have pledged to help parents with,
:26:19. > :26:23.even insiders think they have only really been limbering up. This
:26:23. > :26:26.Government thinks they are doing a lot to get troubled families on to
:26:26. > :26:29.the straight and narrow. They admit privately they are not doing quite
:26:29. > :26:34.as much to help those families already on the straight and narrow
:26:34. > :26:39.stay there. In a leaked memo that came out last year, it exposed
:26:39. > :26:42.their fears inside Government, that they pledged to be the most family
:26:42. > :26:46.-friendly Government ever, is a long way off. In the next few
:26:46. > :26:51.months expect policies to address this.
:26:51. > :26:59.In among a number of ideas to be considered for the next session, in
:26:59. > :27:03.the Queen's Speech, are some suggestions from MP Elizabeth Truss.
:27:03. > :27:07.She thinks the Government has poured money into childcare
:27:07. > :27:10.vouchers increases the need but doesn't help meet the need, instead
:27:10. > :27:18.the Government needs to increase supply, free up those who want to
:27:18. > :27:22.be able to look after children. In 1996 there are 100,000
:27:22. > :27:27.registered child minders operating in the UK. A regime including 69
:27:27. > :27:31.regulations saw that number fall off. By 2010 there are only 55,000
:27:31. > :27:37.child minders. In Germany those looking after fewer than three kids
:27:37. > :27:41.are not ring lated at all. Dee was something we met through a friend
:27:41. > :27:45.and had experience looking after children. We were really interested
:27:45. > :27:48.in exploring the options of her looking after our child, we looked
:27:48. > :27:53.at getting her registered as a childminder. When she looked into
:27:53. > :27:56.that, the hoops she was going to have to jump through were totally
:27:56. > :28:01.prohibitive. One was them about her garden, she lived in a flat, that
:28:01. > :28:05.had a shared garden, so it was a no-no, she would have had to speak
:28:05. > :28:10.to factors and other factors of the other flats around the courtyard to
:28:10. > :28:13.get the entrances secured. It was just, I mean, it is unrealistic.
:28:13. > :28:16.Would she have been a cheaper option? She would have been more
:28:16. > :28:20.flexible and she would have been cheaper and I think the quality of
:28:20. > :28:25.care that I would have had for my child would have been better.
:28:25. > :28:28.So, there is a plan to cut back regulation, maybe, but elsewhere in
:28:28. > :28:32.the system, there is another regulation about to be born. Some
:28:32. > :28:36.businesses are loathe to implement a coalition pledge that would share
:28:36. > :28:40.parental leave. The father would be able to take five-and-a-half months
:28:40. > :28:44.of what was the mum's year, to help in the rearing of their child. For
:28:44. > :28:48.some this is sadly unaffordable. I couldn't. There is absolutely no
:28:49. > :28:55.way I could. I could take a month off and maybe try to get flexible
:28:55. > :29:03.time to reduce the hours or take a week off. Three weeks a month, but
:29:03. > :29:08.a blanket six months is just too much. What about friends who aren't
:29:08. > :29:13.self-employed, is it attractive for them? I would like to see the
:29:13. > :29:16.uptake, it would be low, to be honest. To get around a possible
:29:17. > :29:20.burden of business, the Department of Work and Pensions is examining
:29:20. > :29:24.another of the prolific Elizabeth Truss's ideas, the Government, not
:29:24. > :29:29.employers, should give parents a lump sum on the birth of their
:29:29. > :29:32.child, paid direct to the parent like child benefit, this could make
:29:33. > :29:37.things easier not harder on businesses. There is a long way to
:29:37. > :29:43.go. The parental lead is a good start, flexible working is a good
:29:43. > :29:47.start. In general we have to move the topic of women away from a sort
:29:47. > :29:50.of CSR equality and diversity conversation, and more into a very
:29:51. > :29:54.hard-hitting, economic argument, as to why it is so important. So I
:29:54. > :29:58.think we need to move on from parental leave, we need to look at
:29:58. > :30:01.childcare, we need to look at all of the other things that prevent
:30:01. > :30:05.women from being as productive as they can.
:30:05. > :30:09.That this Government has a problem with women is probably overdone,
:30:09. > :30:15.women don't vote as a block, but this Government does have a problem
:30:15. > :30:19.with being seen to cater just one group, the very rich. Action to
:30:19. > :30:21.make families' lives easier would help knock that idea down. We are
:30:21. > :30:24.three years away from the next election, the Conservatives are
:30:24. > :30:28.playing a long game. They know a single policy announcement and
:30:28. > :30:32.campaign will have little impact on its own. They have to keep it up,
:30:33. > :30:36.week after week, month after month, year after year, and gradually
:30:36. > :30:40.change attitudes. To persuade people who think the Tories are
:30:40. > :30:45.full of toffs who don't understand ordinary life, it is a big job.
:30:45. > :30:50.They have to do it with policies, language, time after time, and then
:30:50. > :30:53.perhaps people will get the message. Recently the Resolution Foundation
:30:54. > :30:57.published analysis showing that over the last 40 years the rise in
:30:57. > :31:00.living standards was in no small part down to women entering the
:31:00. > :31:04.work force. If women feel they can't continue in work and start to
:31:04. > :31:10.loaf, that will have consequences, not just for their self-esteem, but
:31:10. > :31:14.family finances, living standards, and probably UK Plc. Next week in
:31:14. > :31:18.the Queen's Speech, this Government is planning an entire bill devoted
:31:18. > :31:20.to children. Getting family policy right is more than just child's
:31:20. > :31:26.play. Here to discuss the rights and
:31:26. > :31:30.wrong of reform are the business woman Lara Morgan and the
:31:30. > :31:37.Conservative MP, the prolific Elizabeth Truss, a campaigner for
:31:37. > :31:43.reform. What do you think of this idea of there being greater
:31:43. > :31:47.entitlements for parents? I think a general change will have to be made,
:31:48. > :31:53.as we want to have a more equal society, if you like. I think that
:31:53. > :31:56.is a given. But I think there is a massive disconnect in the
:31:56. > :31:59.difference between dictating a standard to all kinds of businesses,
:31:59. > :32:04.versus being cleverer around having a system that works for small
:32:04. > :32:06.business and a system that works for bigger business. That is the
:32:06. > :32:10.significant drag, that is the real issue that the small business I
:32:10. > :32:13.speak for and the growth business companies, who are completely
:32:13. > :32:17.decimated by regulations like this, time and time again, that is the
:32:18. > :32:23.issue they have. I thought you were a Government committed to cutting
:32:23. > :32:28.red tape? Well, it all depends how this policy is implemented. What I
:32:28. > :32:32.want to see is the Government pay the money direct to the parents,
:32:32. > :32:34.not via the employers. That would cut small businesses out of
:32:34. > :32:40.administering red tape. What happens at the moment is Government
:32:40. > :32:43.actually pays employers and then employers pay employees, that is
:32:43. > :32:47.creating unnecessary bureaucracy, I want that taken out of the system.
:32:47. > :32:52.That would benefit small employers. One detail, in Allegra Stratton's
:32:52. > :32:56.report there, she referred to one of your prolific ideas, the idea of
:32:56. > :33:00.a lump sum possibly being paid on birth of a child, is that right?
:33:00. > :33:05.There wouldn't be a lump sum on the birth of a child. What it would be
:33:05. > :33:10.is all families, at the moment we have a �2 billion maternity budget,
:33:10. > :33:14.what it would mean is that is �5,000 for every family who has a
:33:14. > :33:18.child. Every working family. It would mean over a period of six
:33:18. > :33:21.months that family would receive �5,000. It would then be up to them
:33:21. > :33:24.to negotiate with their employer how they took the time off. Whether
:33:24. > :33:30.it was part-time, at the moment it is incredibly inflexible. On the
:33:30. > :33:36.question of money, there are about 700,000 babies born in a year in
:33:36. > :33:40.Britain, that is �4 billion, you are proposing to give away in the
:33:40. > :33:46.lump sum grants? At the moment we spend �2 billion. That would
:33:46. > :33:50.double? No it wouldn't. �5,000? This is for working families who
:33:50. > :33:54.current low claim maternity benefit, who are eligible. There are quite a
:33:54. > :33:57.few people not eligible at the moment. It would work out at
:33:57. > :34:00.roughly �5,000. It would be exactly the same amount of money spent by
:34:00. > :34:06.the Government, but it would be much simple letter, it would be
:34:06. > :34:09.paid direct from the Government to the employee. It is not about the
:34:09. > :34:12.simplicity of how money changes hands. Let's say I have a small
:34:13. > :34:17.business, six people in it, three men and three women, let's say a
:34:17. > :34:20.friend of mine, last year this happened, who of the ladies fall
:34:20. > :34:24.pregnant and so does she. That business was absolutely decimated,
:34:24. > :34:29.she has to open the jobs open for the women. Say one of those men,
:34:30. > :34:33.his wife was pregnant, and he wanted to apply for his paternity
:34:33. > :34:38.leave, that business would not survive that law. At the moment in
:34:38. > :34:42.places like America, there is a cut off where you have 50 and below and
:34:42. > :34:47.50 and above businesses, the 50 and above businesses are still more
:34:47. > :34:51.likely, still not easy and still impacting the teams, must hack off
:34:51. > :34:55.people who don't want children that we treat it as a priority, bottom
:34:55. > :34:58.line it is a bit more bearable. The idea that we are introducing, we
:34:58. > :35:04.want to introduce this at a time when the small businesses have to
:35:04. > :35:06.deal with the age change, it is madness. Essentially I want to take
:35:06. > :35:10.regulation from those small businesses. I agree with you, I
:35:10. > :35:14.think the very smallest should be exempted from some of those
:35:14. > :35:17.provisions. At what level of employees? At the moment we have a
:35:17. > :35:21.system, where if you have a female employee, you have a huge amount of
:35:21. > :35:25.cost, and you don't have that for a male employee. It causes massive
:35:25. > :35:29.discrimination, in my view, against female employees, and we have a
:35:29. > :35:33.very old fashioned system, if you compare us to Germany, France, the
:35:33. > :35:37.US, Canada, all of those countries have parental leave. Rather than
:35:37. > :35:42.just having maternity leave. All I'm saying is let as use the money
:35:42. > :35:49.we use at the moment, let as use the lever we use at the moment to
:35:49. > :35:54.enable parents to share it. Repeat your point about it, the man whose
:35:54. > :36:01.wife gives birth? He's entitled after a 20-week period to take six
:36:01. > :36:04.months leave from his own business. It is still the same amount of
:36:04. > :36:09.leave? It may be a different employer? It is a mother rather
:36:09. > :36:13.than a father. It is a different employer? It is a different
:36:13. > :36:18.employer, that's right. So, go on? We are spreading the
:36:19. > :36:22.issue in terms of the impact. you are not making the issue worse.
:36:22. > :36:26.Is it easier to replace a member of staff for jobs you have to keep
:36:26. > :36:31.open for nine or 12 months, where we have to keep a job open with an
:36:31. > :36:38.unknown precedent of will she or won't she return, we will decimate
:36:38. > :36:41.the two companies, will she or won't he return, because she might
:36:41. > :36:44.have a life-changing experience at home with the child. It is
:36:44. > :36:48.difficult to find a temporary role in six months, in a skilled, small
:36:48. > :36:52.company, where most people are juggling three roles, they are
:36:52. > :36:54.highly motivated to struggle and survive in the market. That is
:36:54. > :37:00.nearly impossible. That is a different point to the overall
:37:00. > :37:05.point about reform. You are trying to encourage enterprise in Britain,
:37:06. > :37:09.I support export businesses, they lose a person in the export market
:37:09. > :37:13.and skills, puts that position and company on hold when that person
:37:13. > :37:16.goes away, they can't be replaced. That is the issue of women in the
:37:16. > :37:19.work place, even those of childbearing age face every day. At
:37:19. > :37:22.the moment we have an unbalanced system in Britain compared to other
:37:22. > :37:26.countries. It is simply unaffordable under current
:37:26. > :37:31.circumstances? In America you get 12 weeks unpaid leave when you are
:37:31. > :37:34.pregnant, we get 12 months. That is shared between the mother and
:37:34. > :37:37.father. In Germany it is shared between the mother and father.
:37:37. > :37:42.Don't you understand, how many businesses have you run. A business
:37:43. > :37:47.can survive. I have run plenty of businesses, actually. In corporate
:37:47. > :37:53.business, you haven't won a small business, historically, you run in
:37:53. > :37:56.corporate worlds, I'm speaking on behalf of small and medium growth
:37:56. > :38:02.enterprise, it does infuriate me, if you haven't got the message.
:38:02. > :38:07.is May Day, traditionally the occasion when socialists paradises
:38:07. > :38:11.celebrate the march of human progress against towards the end of
:38:11. > :38:15.capitalism. There is hope to stage a series of
:38:15. > :38:19.demonstrations against the mighty remnants of capitalism tomorrow,
:38:19. > :38:23.Occupy is a demonstration in itself. It is spawning some new forms of
:38:23. > :38:33.artistic expression. Unlike the art that flourished in the days of
:38:33. > :38:41.
:38:41. > :38:46.corporate glut knee. This has a directly political purpose.
:38:46. > :38:55.New York, the centre of the global art world. Since last November it
:38:55. > :39:00.has been the centre of something else, the Occupy movement.
:39:00. > :39:03.Whether the protests leave a lasting impact on America's
:39:03. > :39:13.politics, what is for certain is they are already impacting on its
:39:13. > :39:22.
:39:22. > :39:27.art and culture. So the Bat Symbol is really simple, 99% black in a
:39:27. > :39:34.white circle. It is big and reads as a Bat Symbol, culturally
:39:34. > :39:39.ledgable. The Bat Symbol is a call to arms and a call for aid. It is
:39:39. > :39:43.both of these things. Instead of a superhero millionaire, psychopath,
:39:43. > :39:48.Bruce Wayne, it is ourselves, it is the 99% coming to save ourselves.
:39:48. > :39:56.It is up to us, we are our own superhero, that is the part that is
:39:56. > :39:59.really rich. Meet the Illuminators. Mission, to
:40:00. > :40:04.project slogans on to buildings from a van. With these tools, in a
:40:04. > :40:10.matter of months, they have created a brand more successful than many
:40:10. > :40:14.actual brands. But is it performance art or
:40:15. > :40:18.activism, for the generation of artists around Occupy, that is a
:40:18. > :40:22.stupid question. It is interesting, a lot of the work that is coming
:40:22. > :40:27.out of this movement is not concerned with how it will be
:40:27. > :40:33.perceived by a buying public. not really designed to be bought?
:40:33. > :40:39.No, it is designed to be shared. It is designed to be made available as
:40:40. > :40:46.widely as possible. It is super copy left. Can I show you a poster.
:40:46. > :40:51.People are putting out their work. In the Occupy movement, the poster
:40:51. > :40:57.is where the wild walled gallery meets the black block, where fine
:40:57. > :41:01.art meets street art. I started out just doing graphics, I drew this
:41:01. > :41:06.picture of an octopus with a vampire quid squid on its belly. I
:41:06. > :41:13.put it on-line, people used it as protest signs. Molly Crabapple is
:41:13. > :41:20.part of a generation of young artists, who has started producing
:41:20. > :41:28.art work with and for the Occupy movement? It took us outside the
:41:28. > :41:36.gallery system and outside this ar self-refer relation world and made
:41:36. > :41:40.us engage in the world. I'm not producing a decorative thing, I'm
:41:40. > :41:44.producing a functional persuasive piece of work that will be repasted
:41:44. > :41:49.on buildings and held up by demonstrators. The paintings
:41:49. > :41:53.depicting the evils of capital will sell for serious dollars, she has
:41:53. > :41:57.raised the money to paint them through crowdsourcing donations on
:41:57. > :42:01.the Internet. For $500 you might get a sketch. I thought creating
:42:01. > :42:05.work that could only be bought by really rich people was silly. And
:42:05. > :42:10.not in line with what I wanted to do. I started thinking of how I
:42:10. > :42:20.could take something like this, and break up the components of it, so
:42:20. > :42:21.
:42:21. > :42:26.people who maybe weren't that wealthy could participate in it.
:42:26. > :42:29.# Realising that it is our weakness For an older generation of more
:42:29. > :42:33.established artists, Occupy has been an excuse to get out of
:42:33. > :42:39.galleries and back to the streets. Don't shoot you will have the whole
:42:39. > :42:46.lot of them down on top us. These might look like an amateur dramatic
:42:46. > :42:50.run through of Brecht's play about the Paris commune, it is part of a
:42:50. > :42:56.bigger installation. At first they drew documentary drawings, and I
:42:56. > :42:59.would observe, I began to think about the time when drawing was
:42:59. > :43:02.socially relevant, when people really did documentary drawing. I
:43:02. > :43:07.was thinking about these ideas about a utopian society abstractly,
:43:07. > :43:12.and then all of a sudden I'm like it is happening a few blocks from
:43:13. > :43:21.my house, I better get down there. Zoe Beloff's been xibgting at the
:43:21. > :43:27.experimental end of the art world - - exhibit -- exhibiting at the
:43:27. > :43:31.experimental end of art world for years, but now she's looking on the
:43:31. > :43:34.pavements of the Occupy movement for what many hope will be a
:43:34. > :43:37.rehearsal of what will happen next. Some of the same people are on the
:43:37. > :43:42.streets of New York for real. park is closed, please turn around
:43:42. > :43:47.and exit the park. Since they were expelled from the original camp,
:43:47. > :43:52.the occupiers have been playing cat and mouse with the NYPD nightly,
:43:52. > :43:57.there is always an element of "performance" in the protest.
:43:57. > :44:02.Who do you protect and who do you refer? 1%. As the real police move
:44:02. > :44:07.in, so do actors, playing a spoof police force. Have you any money to
:44:07. > :44:15.pay us? And so, night after night, they turn New York into a venue for
:44:15. > :44:21.the culture war. Any time you find a mass audience,
:44:21. > :44:26.you will see the called world of art of critics and so on, pay
:44:26. > :44:30.attention. That's a sense in which it shifts the art world and culture,
:44:30. > :44:36.just through the fact that it is part of a mass movement. There
:44:36. > :44:42.really is a global uprising for democracy. These artists, we are
:44:42. > :44:47.working to try to champion that movement, really.
:44:47. > :44:50.Of course, today's artistic rebel is tomorrow's guy in the academy,
:44:50. > :44:56.but at least with this lot you can't call them rebels without a
:44:56. > :45:01.cause. Tomorrow morning's front pages now,
:45:01. > :45:05.the Times has news that the cost of borrowing is going up. The Guardian
:45:06. > :45:15.has news that James Murdoch will be criticised in the select committee
:45:16. > :45:27.
:45:27. > :45:31.report we were hearing about That's all from Newsnight tonight.
:45:31. > :45:36.If you are watching in Manchester you may have had other things on
:45:36. > :45:41.your mind, City played United in a match that finished 1-0 to City.
:45:41. > :45:51.There was some extremely expensive flesh careering around, quite
:45:51. > :45:53.
:45:53. > :45:59.another world from the Manchester Gate money for the first year of
:45:59. > :46:03.the club's existence in 1884 was �1.10, today the manager receives