:00:12. > :00:17.As the Greeks head for new elections, and edge closer to the
:00:17. > :00:20.door marked "euro exit", the new French President meets the German
:00:20. > :00:25.Chancellor, and suggests a new direction for Europe.
:00:25. > :00:30.Sworn in and then his plane hit by lightning on route to Berlin, when
:00:30. > :00:35.he finally stood beside Angela Merkel, he made no attempt to hide
:00:35. > :00:40.their differences. TRANSLATION: Greeks must know that we will,
:00:40. > :00:43.through measures of growth, support of activity, we will go towards
:00:43. > :00:48.them. France and Germany tonight are at
:00:48. > :00:55.odds, a formula that can easily unsettle the markets. And as the
:00:55. > :00:58.head of the IMF openly talks about a messy Greek exit, how can we stop
:00:58. > :01:03.the financial contagion spreading all the way to our shores. Also
:01:03. > :01:09.tonight: I feel today is an attempt to use
:01:09. > :01:13.me and others as escape goats, the effect of which will be to ratchet
:01:13. > :01:17.up the pressure on my wife, who I believe to be the subject of a
:01:17. > :01:20.witch-hunt. Rebekah Brooks and her husband charged with conspiracy to
:01:20. > :01:23.pervert the course of justice, come out fighting.
:01:23. > :01:31.The Employment Minister wants British firms to employ British
:01:31. > :01:35.workers, like this one, why do they prefer migrant workers. He says he
:01:35. > :01:45.can't have work, sometimes English people are lazy. Is it because they
:01:45. > :01:45.
:01:45. > :01:48.are brighter, better or just cheaper?
:01:49. > :01:53.Good evening, it was against the backdrop of the unfolding Greek
:01:53. > :01:57.tragedy that Francois Hollande made his unexpectedly dangerous journey
:01:57. > :02:01.to Berlin, changing planes after a lightning strike. His mission? To
:02:01. > :02:04.live up to his election promises to set a new direction for Europe. In
:02:04. > :02:08.the event, the joint conference between Hollande and Merkel was
:02:08. > :02:11.fascinating, there was little attempt, especially by the French
:02:11. > :02:14.President to disguise differences between them. Francois Hollande
:02:14. > :02:18.said everything must be put on the table to promote growth, and hinted
:02:18. > :02:26.there could be some room for manoeuvre over Greece. Is this a
:02:26. > :02:34.real change in the mood music. Our diplomatic editor reports.
:02:34. > :02:37.Oh la la, first he was drenched by a cloud burst laying a wreath, then
:02:37. > :02:43.when Francois Hollande took to the air, heading for Berlin, his plane
:02:43. > :02:49.was struck by lightning. All the while, another tempest, the
:02:49. > :02:53.eurozone one gathers force. There is a belief on both sides a belief
:02:53. > :02:56.of strong Franco-German relationship T has been strained by
:02:56. > :03:01.different fill loss fees about austerity, and weaknesses in the
:03:01. > :03:04.French economy, that mean it is no longer an equal relationship, and
:03:04. > :03:08.there is a German suspicion that Germany will be asked to fund the
:03:08. > :03:12.whole of the European Union, which they are not really up for.
:03:12. > :03:18.Arriving delayed in Berlin, President Francois Hollande made it
:03:18. > :03:21.clear he wants changes to the EU's Fiscal Compact, or austerity pact,
:03:21. > :03:25.as well as a change from the old Merkozy style of political
:03:25. > :03:30.management. TRANSLATION: I understand the
:03:30. > :03:35.relationship between France and Germany, as a balanced and
:03:35. > :03:39.respectful relationship. Balance between the two countries,
:03:39. > :03:42.respectful of our political sensablities, and respectful of our
:03:42. > :03:47.partners in Europe and European institutions. We want to work
:03:47. > :03:51.together for the welfare of Europe. But through the mobilisation of all
:03:51. > :03:57.the other countries of the union. France's new President, sworn in
:03:57. > :04:03.this morning, is trying to set a fresh tone. His approach to the
:04:03. > :04:07.euro crisis, like his Citroen, this morning, is a hybrid. He agrees
:04:07. > :04:10.France must run a balanced budget, but he wants new spending to
:04:10. > :04:19.stimulate growth, and suggested tonight he's prepared to revisit
:04:19. > :04:24.existing agreements in order to get it. TRANSLATION: I have explained
:04:24. > :04:29.that I want growth to be not only a word that can be uttered and
:04:29. > :04:33.followed by tangible acts in truth, the best method is to put
:04:33. > :04:40.everything on the table through the informal summit that will take
:04:40. > :04:45.place on the 23rd of May, with the European council on the end of June.
:04:45. > :04:52.The German Chancellorry are briefing out the line that there is
:04:52. > :04:56.so much that unites the two leaders. There are differences, Mr Hollande
:04:56. > :05:00.wants a new eurobond, a new type of debt. The Germans don't like that
:05:00. > :05:04.idea at all. The two leaders disagree on how far they should
:05:04. > :05:09.continue to help the banking sector. That issue is becoming all the more
:05:09. > :05:14.vexed, because of the gathering crisis in Greece. After several
:05:14. > :05:17.failed attempts to form a new Government committed to EU mandated
:05:17. > :05:24.austerity measures, Greece today announced that it will be heading
:05:24. > :05:28.back to the polls. Is its exit from the euro inevitable, the head of
:05:28. > :05:33.the IMF gave this answer. certainly don't hope so, from the
:05:34. > :05:37.IMF point of view. But we have to be prepared for anything. As I said,
:05:37. > :05:40.with endorsement by the PASOK and the Conservative Party, we thought
:05:40. > :05:44.that we had covered all the potential angles, clearly that was
:05:44. > :05:51.not the case. So we have to be technically prepared for anything.
:05:51. > :05:56.This evening, the new French leader told the Greeks he felt their pain.
:05:56. > :06:01.But as for his formula of growth, Chancellor Merkel revealed a
:06:02. > :06:09.certain scepticism about what it really meant. TRANSLATION: Growth
:06:09. > :06:14.is a general term, and I'm pleased that we have agreed on talking
:06:14. > :06:19.about the different ideas in terms of growth, and I'm not worried that
:06:19. > :06:23.we could not have common ground. Possibly we have some different
:06:23. > :06:28.opinions, but I'm really looking forward to our co-operation.
:06:28. > :06:33.It is too early to start talking about a serious rift between France
:06:33. > :06:38.and Germany. But, the eurozone storm clouds are gathering again
:06:38. > :06:43.because of Greece. So the desire to reopen what was meant to be agreed
:06:43. > :06:46.could easily produce more turbulence in the weeks ahead. As
:06:47. > :06:54.you say, it is too early to talk about a serious rift, did you get a
:06:54. > :06:57.sense of any real difference, of posturing and positioning? There
:06:57. > :06:59.was posturing. Monsieur Hollande has been elected President, but his
:06:59. > :07:05.Socialist Party is going in for the parliamentary elections in France
:07:05. > :07:09.in a few weeks time. Everybody in Paris felt he couldn't step back
:07:09. > :07:13.and roll over and accept a few general phrases from Mrs Merkel
:07:13. > :07:19.today, he had to be true to his platform. Particularly looking
:07:19. > :07:25.ahead to those elections. But, even if he was using stom some of those
:07:25. > :07:28.phrases about re-- some of those phrases of revisiting the Fiscal
:07:28. > :07:34.Compact, for underlying effect there are serious differences. If
:07:34. > :07:39.people are talking about a new fund, a couple of hundred million euros,
:07:39. > :07:42.who where will it come from. Monsieur Hollande suggests
:07:42. > :07:48.eurobonds, Germany gets the feeling they will end up paying for those,
:07:48. > :07:52.they are not keen on that idea. There are other serious divergences
:07:52. > :07:57.of view, about serious sums of money, that could make it a
:07:57. > :08:06.difficult relationship. One of the people advising the Syriza leader
:08:06. > :08:14.in efforts to form a Government in Athens with us, and we have an
:08:14. > :08:16.visor to President Hollande with us. You heard -- adviser to President
:08:17. > :08:21.Hollande. You were listening to the speech and he said everything was
:08:21. > :08:24.on the table and looking at policies for growth, was he serious
:08:24. > :08:27.in suggesting something different than the Fiscal Compact with
:08:27. > :08:31.Greece? I'm sorry I didn't get the end of your question. Was he
:08:31. > :08:41.suggesting that there might be a change in the Fiscal Compact, or is
:08:41. > :08:42.
:08:42. > :08:45.it going to be exactly the same position for Greece? I think in
:08:45. > :08:48.Francois Hollande's platform, there was a commitment to steer Europe in
:08:48. > :08:56.a new direction. It is very important for Francois Hollande to
:08:56. > :09:02.put growth on the table, as he said. So Angela Merkel today was quite
:09:02. > :09:12.open, maybe not to IRA negotiation of the treaty, but to an add dent
:09:12. > :09:16.dumb, or another agreement, dealing with growth. Growth is on the top
:09:16. > :09:24.of the agenda of Francois Hollande's agenda, and there might
:09:24. > :09:34.be change in the coming weeks, and on the agenda of the French-German
:09:34. > :09:37.relationship in. -- the future. In terms of Greece, did you get a
:09:37. > :09:41.sense that he might change the Fiscal Compact or might be
:09:41. > :09:48.approaching that? I didn't get that. The terms that Greece has signed up
:09:48. > :09:52.to, did you get a sense that might be changed for Greece? About the
:09:52. > :09:57.memorandum? Yes? No, I think the Francois Hollande said he was
:09:57. > :10:04.waiting for the results of the elections, I think the conditions
:10:04. > :10:07.for Greece to stay in the eurozone is on the memorandum. First of all,
:10:07. > :10:12.Francois Hollande wants to know about the results of the election.
:10:12. > :10:17.He said he would be respectful of the Greek people's votes. I think
:10:17. > :10:20.for the moment he's waiting for the results. Do you get any sense that
:10:20. > :10:26.there is going to be any change, it sounds as if it is business as
:10:26. > :10:30.usual, you have to stick to the memorandum? Well, we hope that, I
:10:30. > :10:35.mean after the fact that we are going to have elections in a you
:10:35. > :10:40.few weeks in Greece. We hope that is the message we wanted to send as
:10:40. > :10:45.a political party, in the previous elections, that we need a change in
:10:45. > :10:52.the European strategy orientation. We need a change in order to
:10:52. > :10:56.abandon all this austerity policies that have created all this crisis,
:10:56. > :11:01.that does not resolve the debt crisis problem. We need a change in
:11:01. > :11:06.these kinds of policies. We hope and we are optimistic with the
:11:06. > :11:11.changes that have taken place in other countries in Europe, such as
:11:11. > :11:15.in France, that there is hope in order to change this kind of policy.
:11:15. > :11:19.But you say we don't want any of the austerity plans. The austerity
:11:19. > :11:24.plans will be staying in place. The memorandum stays in place. You go
:11:24. > :11:27.into elections, and the reality is, if you won't stick to the austerity
:11:28. > :11:32.plans, you must be honest with the people and say you will leave the
:11:32. > :11:36.euro, you will have to leave the euro, won't you? No, I don't
:11:36. > :11:43.believe that. I would like to disconnect these two issues. For me
:11:43. > :11:45.it is a totally different issue, remaining in the euro, and
:11:46. > :11:50.abandoning the memorandum of austerity and bail out programme.
:11:51. > :11:56.For me, right now, with these kinds of policies, the austerity policies
:11:56. > :12:01.and the bail out policies, it is one way in order to make the crisis
:12:01. > :12:05.much worse, much more intensive. Since this kind of policies have
:12:05. > :12:09.been implement - these kinds of policies have been implemented in
:12:09. > :12:13.other European countries, in Spain, Portugal, and Ireland, with these
:12:13. > :12:18.kinds of policies, there is a very big, real threat for the eurozone
:12:18. > :12:23.to be dissolved. In my point of view, the other policies,
:12:23. > :12:29.abandoning the austerity policies, and encouraging pro-growth policies,
:12:29. > :12:34.is the only way in order to have a viable eurozone. The only way to
:12:34. > :12:40.try to create jobs, to boost growth, to stimulate investment. This is
:12:40. > :12:44.the only way that the eurozone can deal with the debt crisis. Is there
:12:44. > :12:48.any way, do you think, to renegotiate the Fiscal Compact for
:12:48. > :12:53.the whole of the eurozone? I think it is going to be very difficult,
:12:53. > :12:57.because it is -- Angela Merkel made it clear today that she was not
:12:57. > :13:05.willing to reopen negotiations about the fiscal treaty, but maybe
:13:05. > :13:10.the solution is a third way. I think, as I said before, we need to
:13:10. > :13:17.steer Europe in a new direction, and austerity policies have proven
:13:17. > :13:27.inefficient up until now, and we need to find a way to put growth on
:13:27. > :13:29.
:13:29. > :13:35.the same level as the disciplines and social integration. I think if
:13:35. > :13:38.not to renegotiate the treaty, but to put growth at the top in the
:13:38. > :13:41.priorities of the agenda. Angela Merkel still holds the cards, if
:13:41. > :13:44.there is no renegotiation of the Fiscal Compact, that is a central
:13:44. > :13:51.thing. Hollande may get other things on the periphery, but not
:13:51. > :13:56.the central thing he wants? know, the formal, the legal terms
:13:56. > :14:00.of the agreements are not very important. The important thing is
:14:00. > :14:04.what is inside the agreements. If it is not in the fiscal treaty, but
:14:04. > :14:10.if we have an additional agreement, saying that growth is important,
:14:10. > :14:17.that we need to boost the action of the European investment banks, that
:14:17. > :14:20.we are going to implement this idea of project bonds, and that we
:14:20. > :14:26.are...I'm Afraid we have lost the line to Paris. Thank you both very
:14:26. > :14:29.much indeed. Contagion, like the title of a sci-
:14:29. > :14:34.fi horror movie, is the word on the lips of politicians across Europe.
:14:34. > :14:38.There is a deep uncertainty of the economies of every single European
:14:38. > :14:43.country of Greece leaving the euro. Another election in that country,
:14:43. > :14:48.is, on present opinion polling, is unlikely to turn up a result that
:14:48. > :14:56.will change Greece's current direction of channel. Who will be
:14:56. > :15:00.hit the hardest. Would a Greek contagion go with the exit? If for
:15:00. > :15:04.whatever reason the Greek Government feels it can't or won't
:15:04. > :15:11.meet the terms of the second bail out. That in itself would act as a
:15:11. > :15:15.kind of trigger. The ECB, propping up the Greeks in the past couple of
:15:15. > :15:18.years, won't give the money, the second trench from European
:15:18. > :15:23.partners won't come. That on the ground will manifest into something
:15:23. > :15:28.of a bank run. Not unlike what we saw four years ago in Northern Rock,
:15:28. > :15:32.but on a far larger scale. The savers in Greece will want the hard
:15:32. > :15:38.currency, in their hand, rather than potentially a soft currency
:15:38. > :15:45.overnight in their bank account. The problem with that is it is
:15:45. > :15:50.leading to a major problem on the ground .00 million euros has been
:15:50. > :15:55.taken out of Greek banks yesterday alone -- 700 million euro has been
:15:55. > :16:00.taken out of Greek banks yesterday alone. If that continues everything
:16:00. > :16:06.will be gone in 100 days, that brings contagion. People in
:16:06. > :16:11.Portugal, and Italy will say maybe I'm next, maybe I want my hard
:16:11. > :16:15.currency in my mattress rather than in my account. They might move to
:16:15. > :16:18.hard currency zones like Germany, the states, Switzerland or even
:16:18. > :16:23.Britain. All the while the cost of borrowing for Spain, as it has done
:16:23. > :16:27.for the past two days is starting to sore, making a bail out for
:16:27. > :16:32.likely. What about the firewalls, how much money is there to put out
:16:32. > :16:38.the fires? At the moment there is the EFSF, the European Financial
:16:38. > :16:44.Stability Facility. This has remaining funds of �248 billion,
:16:44. > :16:50.after bailing out -- 248 billion euros, this is after bailing out
:16:50. > :16:54.Ireland. There is the ESM, with half a trillion euros, potentially,
:16:54. > :16:58.depending on the contributions the member states might cough up, they
:16:58. > :17:01.haven't all made the contribution yet. Then add in the IMF, that
:17:01. > :17:04.usually makes a contribution in proportion to what the Europeans
:17:05. > :17:10.have put on the able, for every two euros the European institutions put
:17:10. > :17:14.on the table, the IMF will give one euro in bail out money as well.
:17:14. > :17:18.British banks, how much are they in hock for? Not that much. Since the
:17:18. > :17:23.major write-down of March, and the various different bail outs,
:17:23. > :17:27.between them RBS, Lloyd's and Barclays, have about 800 million
:17:27. > :17:32.direct exposure to Greece, and 8.3 to Spain. They have investments in
:17:32. > :17:35.other banks and institutions that are heavily exposed to Greece and
:17:35. > :17:40.Spain. For example, Credit Agricole, heavily exposed to Greece, their
:17:40. > :17:44.shares are down 75% in the last six months. The contagion thing starts
:17:44. > :17:47.to grow pretty big. Baroness Vadera is a former
:17:47. > :17:51.investment banker and Business Minister who played a key role in
:17:51. > :17:57.constructing Gordon Brown's response to the banking collapse of
:17:57. > :18:01.2008. She went on to act as an visor for the G20. What did you --
:18:01. > :18:04.advisor for the G20. What did you make of the meeting between
:18:04. > :18:07.Hollande and Merkel and the tone of it tonight? Hollande is still in
:18:07. > :18:13.election mode, that is something to remember. He has been election at
:18:13. > :18:17.home to win. And there is no growth going to be readily agreed to. What
:18:17. > :18:20.was interesting was his advisor, the interview you had with his
:18:20. > :18:25.advisor, where she was pointing to the compromise direction, which is
:18:25. > :18:28.a sort of addendum, saying we think growth is a very important thing,
:18:28. > :18:33.we will have more money from the European investment bank. That is
:18:33. > :18:38.all fine, but not necessarily going to magic some growth into Europe.
:18:38. > :18:40.Frankly, if growth was that easy to magic, they would have done it
:18:40. > :18:45.already. Though you have heard what Joe was
:18:45. > :18:48.saying as well, from your own view, if Greece does essentially fall out
:18:48. > :18:52.of the euro, do you think the rest of Europe will be able to cope.
:18:52. > :18:57.What about the contagion? logical answer is they ought to be
:18:57. > :19:03.able to cope. First of all, Greece is just 2% of the eurozone economy.
:19:03. > :19:06.People have had two years to provision themselves and to deal
:19:06. > :19:10.with what their exposure to Greece would be. The problem is, that
:19:10. > :19:14.every time politicians have said, this is isolated to Greece, the
:19:14. > :19:17.next thing that has happened is Ireland, and then Portugal, now we
:19:17. > :19:22.have Spain in trouble, Italy will be next. Actually there is no
:19:22. > :19:28.credibility and plausability in the system. So there is a really
:19:28. > :19:31.serious policek of conat that stage. You heard also the members of the
:19:31. > :19:35.Syriza Party, they are not willing to accept the austerity measures,
:19:35. > :19:40.it looks like the next election will throw up a similar problem. Do
:19:40. > :19:44.you think Greece will leave. What is your best guess? It is logical
:19:44. > :19:48.for Greece to leave, I don't think the structure of their economy
:19:48. > :19:53.belongs in the euro. I don't think it is inevitable that they will
:19:53. > :19:57.leave. Fundamentally they are making a false choice. They are
:19:57. > :20:01.essentially saying 70% of Greeks would rather the euro than the
:20:01. > :20:04.drachma, but they don't want to pay the price of it. You heard that.
:20:04. > :20:07.They are facing a false choice. At some point they will be forced to
:20:07. > :20:13.make a real choice, and we don't know how they will respond then.
:20:13. > :20:17.You were talking about his advisor there, but when Hollande was saying,
:20:17. > :20:24.they would come towards them, and policies, do you think there could
:20:24. > :20:28.be any move to Greece to delay a repayment, or something, to ease
:20:28. > :20:32.their pain? I'm sure there can be guestures to ease their pain. But
:20:32. > :20:36.for Greece there is really no getting away are from the fact that
:20:36. > :20:41.they have a structurally difficult economy that is not competitive,
:20:41. > :20:44.and they can't live within the euro. If you are saying that we should be
:20:44. > :20:49.quite prepared for this, but there is a lot more we could do. What
:20:49. > :20:52.else can we do, do you think, to protect ourselves from any
:20:52. > :20:55.contagion? I'm sure they would never say so. But I'm sure there is
:20:56. > :20:59.a plan. The minute they say there is a plan, it creates the
:20:59. > :21:03.impression that Greece is about to leave. So they won't say it. I'm
:21:03. > :21:07.pretty sure there are plans in the banking system, with the ECB, and
:21:07. > :21:13.for the use of the firewall, although the firewall is not
:21:13. > :21:18.actually fully under funded. doesn't really exist. -- Fully
:21:18. > :21:22.funded. It doesn't really exist. How about problems hitting our
:21:22. > :21:29.shores? We have had some exposure to Greece, all of the provisions
:21:29. > :21:31.have been made. I think our problem is not exposure directly to Greece,
:21:31. > :21:35.but exposure to the European banking system, which is very
:21:35. > :21:42.fragile, not just because of Greece, but Spain and Italy. Essentially
:21:42. > :21:46.one of the pieces of collateral damage from the financing that the
:21:46. > :21:51.European Central Bank has been providing, is that French and
:21:51. > :21:54.German banks have dumped their Spanish and Italian bonds, and
:21:54. > :21:58.Italian and Spanish banks have been buying them. They are holding them,
:21:58. > :22:01.and that is very fragile. Thank you very much.
:22:01. > :22:05.Rebekah Brooks, the former chief executive of News International,
:22:05. > :22:09.faces the prospect of a jail sentence, fee if she's found guilty
:22:09. > :22:12.of the three charges of conspiring to pervert the course of justice
:22:12. > :22:16.brought towed by the Crown Prosecution Service. Her husband,
:22:16. > :22:19.Charley Brooks, charged alongside her with perverting the course of
:22:19. > :22:26.justice, during the phone hacking investigations, told the press his
:22:26. > :22:29.wife was the victim of a witch-hunt. And so this already convoluted
:22:29. > :22:32.omniscandal develops another complex curlicue. Rebekah Brooks,
:22:32. > :22:37.her husband, and four others, charged with conspiracy to pervert
:22:37. > :22:41.the course of justice. As we waited for the announcement from the Crown
:22:41. > :22:48.Prosecution Service at 10.00, the official news was scooped ten
:22:48. > :22:51.minutes beforehand, by a statement from Mr and Mrs Brooks. When the
:22:51. > :22:55.couple appeared outside their solicitor's office, late this
:22:55. > :23:00.afternoon, they were angry and defiant. I feel today is an attempt
:23:00. > :23:05.to use me, and others, as scapegoats, the effect of which,
:23:05. > :23:09.will be to ramp chet up the pressure on my wife -- ratchet up
:23:09. > :23:15.the pressure on my wife, who I also believe is the subject of a witch-
:23:15. > :23:20.hunt. One day the details of this case le emerge, people will see --
:23:20. > :23:24.case will emerge, people will see today as nothing more than an
:23:24. > :23:27.expensive side show, and a waste of public money, as a result of an
:23:27. > :23:30.injust and weak decision. The Crown Prosecution Service were
:23:30. > :23:35.handed the file by the Metropolitan Police on the 27th of March,
:23:35. > :23:41.relating to seven suspects. Rebekah Brooks, her husband, Charles Brooks,
:23:41. > :23:45.Cheryl Carter, Miss Brooks PA, Mark Hanna, head of security at News
:23:45. > :23:48.International, there are Brooks chauffeur, employed by News
:23:48. > :23:52.International, Paul Edwards, and Daryl Jorsling, and a seventh
:23:52. > :23:58.suspect, both of whom provided security for Mrs Brooks Brookes,
:23:59. > :24:02.and made by News International. The CPS applies a two-stage test, first,
:24:02. > :24:07.if there is a realistic chance of conviction, and secondly, if the
:24:07. > :24:11.prosecution is in the public interest. Today the CPS announced
:24:11. > :24:15.its conclusions. In relation to all suspects, except the seventh, there
:24:15. > :24:20.is sufficient evidence for there to be a realistic prospect of convibs.
:24:20. > :24:25.I then considered the second stage of the test -- conviction. I then
:24:25. > :24:28.considered the second stage of the test, and I have concluded a
:24:28. > :24:31.prosecution is in the public interest in relation to the six.
:24:31. > :24:37.All have been informed of my decisions this morning. This is a
:24:37. > :24:43.complex case with the need for more than one highlighter pen. The first
:24:43. > :24:48.charge relates to all six suspects. Rebekah Brooks, between the 6th and
:24:48. > :24:54.19th of July 2011, conspired with Charles Brooks, Cheryl Carter, Mark
:24:54. > :24:56.Hanna, Paul Edwards, Daryl Jorsling and persons unknown, to conceal
:24:56. > :25:00.material from officers of the Metropolitan Police Service.
:25:00. > :25:07.the charges don't end there, charged two refers to simply
:25:07. > :25:12.Rebekah Brooks and her former PA, Cheryl Carter, that between the 6--
:25:12. > :25:15.9th of July 2011, they conspired together to permanently remove
:25:15. > :25:19.seven boxes of material from the archives of News International.
:25:19. > :25:23.Indeed all the charges relate to a very short period of time, just two
:25:23. > :25:27.weeks in the summer of 2011, when there were, almost daily
:25:27. > :25:31.revelations and developments in the phone hacking saga.
:25:31. > :25:37.The period the offences are alleged to have taken place begins on the
:25:37. > :25:40.6th July last year. Two days previously, the Guardian Newspaper,
:25:40. > :25:45.carried allegations that the News of the World hacked Milly Dowler's
:25:45. > :25:55.phone, and deleted some of her messages, giving her parents false
:25:55. > :25:56.
:25:56. > :26:04.hope. More allegations followed the next day, Madeline McCann's parents
:26:04. > :26:08.and victims of the 7/7 offences had their phones hacked too. Then David
:26:08. > :26:12.Cameron committed to public inquiries into media practices in
:26:12. > :26:15.phone hacking and the police. On the day after that, the 7th July,
:26:15. > :26:18.News International announces it is closing the News of the World. The
:26:18. > :26:22.following day, Andy Coulson was arrested in connection with
:26:22. > :26:25.allegations of phone hacking and corruption. On the 15th of July,
:26:25. > :26:31.Rebekah Brooks resigned as chief executive of News International.
:26:32. > :26:36.Two days later she was arrested, and questioned for 12 hours, before
:26:36. > :26:40.being released on police bail. The two-week period ends on 19th of
:26:40. > :26:45.July, the day Rebekah Brooks gave evidence to a select Commons
:26:45. > :26:50.committee. The final charge relates to the final four days of the
:26:50. > :26:53.period. Rebekah Brooks, Charles Brooks, Mark Hanna, Paul Edwards
:26:53. > :27:02.and Daryl Jorsling, conspired together and with persons unknown,
:27:02. > :27:08.between the 15th-9th July, together to conceal papers and computers
:27:08. > :27:14.from officers of the Metropolitan Police. The penalty is life
:27:14. > :27:18.imprisonment at its maximum. It is something the courts make certain
:27:18. > :27:22.they are not interfered with. far these are only charges, all of
:27:22. > :27:25.the suspects are presumed innocent. Even so, that doesn't mean this
:27:26. > :27:29.isn't politically embarrassing for David Cameron, who, until recently,
:27:29. > :27:32.like previous prime ministers before him, was a friend, who
:27:33. > :27:39.texted and socialised with someone now charged with such a serious
:27:40. > :27:44.crime. Are foreign workers a more
:27:44. > :27:47.attractive prospect for British employers than British-born workers.
:27:47. > :27:55.Will the figures out for unemployment, particularly for
:27:55. > :28:01.youth employment, have anything to do with the ready supply of
:28:01. > :28:07.immigrant labour. Chris Grayling says it is easy to find an
:28:07. > :28:11.immigrant labourer with five years experience, but there is workers
:28:11. > :28:18.close to home too. We will discuss that with our
:28:19. > :28:23.guests in a moment. First Allegra Stratton.
:28:23. > :28:28.He's a rolling stone now, but once someone like Paul would have been
:28:28. > :28:32.into rolling stock. It's late morning in the centre of
:28:32. > :28:37.Crewe, and back in the day a thousand pools would knock out one
:28:37. > :28:41.locomotive a week, now this man is without work, why? If someone said
:28:41. > :28:45.to you the trouble is foreign workers have lots of skills, and
:28:45. > :28:53.with the best will in the world you are not as skilled as them? It is
:28:53. > :29:01.not always the truth. How not? Because there is people who are
:29:01. > :29:06.qualified and that at jobs, but just can't get the jobs.
:29:06. > :29:11.There are things about how you work that are more reliable than how
:29:11. > :29:16.some Brits work? You have a get-up- and-go, which some Brits do not
:29:16. > :29:23.have. Paul, behind us, says he can't get work, because of somebody
:29:23. > :29:30.like you? He can get work. He says he can't? Not possible. Sometimes
:29:30. > :29:36.English people are lazy. I don't know why they don't want to go
:29:36. > :29:45.working in the agencies. Because they think that this is a lower
:29:45. > :29:49.level, yeah. No, everybody can work in England, no problem.
:29:49. > :29:52.The charge is this, the number of foreign workers in the UK went up
:29:52. > :29:58.at the same time as the number of British workers in employment went
:29:58. > :30:04.down. One cafe, Pret A Manger, had been found to employ entirely
:30:04. > :30:10.foreign workers, not a Brit amongst them. We are lazy, not pubgt actual,
:30:10. > :30:20.and not industrious, that is the problem. This is a stark graph of
:30:20. > :30:23.
:30:23. > :30:29.Migrationwatch, a think-tank concerned by unchecked immigration,
:30:29. > :30:35.puts it like this. They call it a remarkable coincidence that from
:30:35. > :30:40.2004, and the arrival of eastern European workers, to 201, the
:30:40. > :30:45.number of even European workers rose by 600,000, the unemployed
:30:45. > :30:50.young rose by 450,000. Why don't you work in a warehouse? I have
:30:50. > :30:54.done that. How long did it last? About two weeks. Why not longer?
:30:54. > :30:58.Not many of my friends were there, and they only spoke Polish, they
:30:58. > :31:02.talked around you, I don't like that. There is a job, this one here,
:31:02. > :31:05.it looks all right, why not go for something like that, just to show
:31:05. > :31:10.you can hold something down? would go for that, I have done bar
:31:10. > :31:15.work, the thing is, when I send my CV and application, they will
:31:15. > :31:19.refuse it. Why? There is probably better CVs out there than mine.
:31:19. > :31:22.There is clearly a problem when young people are unemployed and
:31:22. > :31:25.there is jobs available and they are going to migrants. I don't
:31:25. > :31:29.think it tells us stopping immigration will solve youth
:31:29. > :31:34.unemployment, it tells us that young people may not be qualified,
:31:34. > :31:38.the jobs may be insecure and at low wages, and there may be a whole
:31:39. > :31:44.load of other reasons why young people aren't getting the jobs.
:31:44. > :31:47.If the foreign workers, 160,000 hadn't come to the country, you
:31:47. > :31:50.couldn't say 160 young people could have been in work. That is not how
:31:50. > :31:54.it works. But critics of the Government, who don't like the link,
:31:54. > :31:58.think there is something in the fact that a steady supply of keen
:31:58. > :32:03.immigrants means there is less incentive for places to train up
:32:03. > :32:08.British workers, like Pete Waterman has done here.
:32:08. > :32:15.Waterman has a philosophy, help the local kills burnish their careers,
:32:16. > :32:21.by burnishing the local industry. What was the one skill you realised
:32:21. > :32:26.you were not good at, notlessly a mechanical one? Getting up on time,
:32:26. > :32:30.getting here and lasting the day. At no point when at the Jobcentre,
:32:30. > :32:34.did you not say I clearly have a work ethic, I don't know what the
:32:34. > :32:37.problem is? They weren't interested, they wanted to to be you off with
:32:37. > :32:42.cleaning jobs, engineering is something I have always wanted to
:32:42. > :32:45.do. They were just, it is just shocking to me, there is an
:32:45. > :32:49.engineering shortage in this country, they should have
:32:49. > :32:53.encouraged you. Do you think they didn't tailor your job search to
:32:53. > :32:58.you? Not at all. They try to to be you off, cleaning jobs, because
:32:58. > :33:01.there is lots of them about. Some urge a closer examination.
:33:02. > :33:06.That sharp increase in the top line shows youth unemployment climbing
:33:06. > :33:12.up during the recession. As the bottom line, net immigration from
:33:12. > :33:17.Eastern Europe, plateaus. All agree we have a youth
:33:17. > :33:20.unemployment problem, economic recession, and immigration. A
:33:20. > :33:28.troubling trifecta has aligned. The Employment Minister, Chris
:33:28. > :33:36.Grayling is here, along with the entrepeneur, Luke Johnson, who owns
:33:36. > :33:42.high street patisseries, Nicola Smith, and a supplier of Polish
:33:42. > :33:47.food for supermarkets, and Pete Waterman. What are British
:33:47. > :33:50.employers to do, take second best British workers? The reality is it
:33:50. > :33:54.is often easier, quicker, more straight forward to hire somebody
:33:54. > :34:00.in their mid-20s, who has come half way across the continent to find
:34:00. > :34:04.work, and has that level of get-up- a-go, compared with someone coming
:34:04. > :34:08.out of college or university and struggling without experience. If
:34:08. > :34:12.you give those people a chance and get them into an apprenticeship, we
:34:12. > :34:16.can help turn their lives around. Businesses are having it tough
:34:16. > :34:22.themselves, sometimes they don't have the time to make that choice,
:34:22. > :34:26.they need good workers, working fast, well and imaginatively
:34:26. > :34:31.straight away? I was out in my constituency last week, a local
:34:31. > :34:36.house builder, big development, they have 500 apprenticeships,
:34:36. > :34:40.because they have seen eastern workers -- eastern European workers
:34:40. > :34:44.going elsewhere for the jobs. You can't be sure the workers will
:34:44. > :34:49.always be there. What is your opinion on hiring? I'm in favour of
:34:49. > :34:53.hiring locals where you can, we to in various of my companies. We are
:34:53. > :34:59.on our way to creating 1,000 jobs a year, they are tough to fill. There
:34:59. > :35:07.are times when you feel, perhaps, there isn't a culture here of a
:35:07. > :35:13.work ethic, and perhaps some people are having a sense of entitlement,
:35:13. > :35:16.it is a concern. You can be offering a thousand jobs in the
:35:16. > :35:21.catering industry? Yeah, the fact is a lot of British people look
:35:21. > :35:26.down on jobs in particular in the hospitality industry. That is a
:35:26. > :35:30.problem. Attitude problem? I think the facts don't back that up. There
:35:30. > :35:33.are one million people in the UK today working in hospitality in
:35:33. > :35:37.retail. That is one third of all young people employed. There is
:35:37. > :35:42.absolutely no evidence that British workers don't have the work ethic,
:35:42. > :35:47.every month, 300,000 workers, moving off jobseeker's allowance,
:35:47. > :35:50.we have far fewer jobs than before the recession. You are someone
:35:50. > :35:53.looking for employees all the time, you are expanding your business, do
:35:54. > :35:57.you think there is a problem with the work ethic among British
:35:57. > :36:01.workers? A huge one, try to find British people who want to work on
:36:01. > :36:06.Saturday evening or Sunday, or Christmas Day, or New Year's Eve,
:36:06. > :36:10.they want to go out on those days, and somebody has to work. I suppose
:36:10. > :36:17.you might say, that is a hole I dark are you prepared to
:36:17. > :36:22.renumberate them well for working the decision days, -- renumerate
:36:22. > :36:27.them for working on special days, or is it just foreign workers who
:36:27. > :36:31.will do that? There is always minimum wage jobs, there is a
:36:31. > :36:36.question of flexibility, attitude and multitasking. Let me put that
:36:36. > :36:40.to Chris Grayling, there is an entrepeneur in this country, two,
:36:40. > :36:43.in fact, not finding the right staff here? There is certainly a
:36:43. > :36:46.job to be done in turning around the lives of some young people. We
:36:46. > :36:49.have large numbers of young people growing up in communities or
:36:49. > :36:53.families where no-one has worked. They are entering a world they
:36:53. > :36:57.haven't known about. We have to do that. We have to help them take
:36:57. > :37:00.those steps, by getting them into apprenticeships, and take a big
:37:00. > :37:04.step forward in their careers and learn it can be a positive
:37:04. > :37:07.experience in work. You did take, as it were, the slow
:37:07. > :37:11.train to do it, Pete Waterman, you had to turn them around, you were
:37:11. > :37:16.in a position where you could do that? I take a different attitude,
:37:16. > :37:21.I take the attitude that if you train somebody properly, you have a
:37:21. > :37:26.better worker. I have experienced exactly what we hear here, we start
:37:26. > :37:33.at 7.30 in the morning, you say to kids you have to be at work at
:37:33. > :37:36.7.30am, they don't understand what that is. Reuben nef lant? I started
:37:36. > :37:41.work in certain circumstances, people were good to me, I believe
:37:41. > :37:46.that if I get that respect and strength back, those two guys, you
:37:46. > :37:53.saw in that film, particularly that girl, was seven years unemployed. I
:37:53. > :37:56.was told she was unemployable. I have to tell you, she is my star
:37:57. > :38:00.apprentice, she is my only female, not because I won't take female,
:38:00. > :38:04.but she wanted the job. You want people who want to work. It is four
:38:04. > :38:07.years, they need to work for me for four years, it is 15 months, two
:38:08. > :38:11.years before I see a penny from them. But you can afford that?
:38:11. > :38:15.can, because they have turned my business round. It is 15 months
:38:15. > :38:19.before Pete Waterman will see a penny, for people in business just
:38:19. > :38:23.now, that is a long time to wait? It is, it is very tough. We are not
:38:23. > :38:30.in recession, we are close to one. A lot of companies are close to the
:38:30. > :38:35.edge. You need people to be productive. Carrying workers who
:38:35. > :38:38.are not delivering is an expense many businesses can't afford.
:38:38. > :38:44.about the bigger principle, that a lot of foreign workers don't inject
:38:44. > :38:48.as much into the economy as domestic workers do, because they
:38:48. > :38:51.are repatriateing money, and they are not here for long, they won't
:38:51. > :38:55.have as big an impact on the economy. Can you have that come
:38:56. > :39:00.into our thinking? Immigration is important in all aspect of the
:39:00. > :39:04.economy. We need students, we need brains, we need talent here. We
:39:04. > :39:09.shouldn't start erecting barriers to immigration, because of
:39:09. > :39:13.prejudice. I think this is a very bad error. Is that not a danger, if
:39:13. > :39:16.you say British jobs for British workers, that is dangerous stuff?
:39:16. > :39:20.It is not about British jobs for British workers, it is about
:39:20. > :39:22.investing in the next generation. We can't afford to say, these gies,
:39:22. > :39:26.they are 18, growing up in difficult circumstances, let's
:39:26. > :39:30.forget about them. We have to turn their lives around. I keep meeting
:39:30. > :39:35.people who have taken on young people, from difficult backgrounds,
:39:36. > :39:39.turned them round and had exact low the same kind of story that Pete
:39:39. > :39:43.has had. I agree, we need to take on more unemployed people, but the
:39:43. > :39:47.best thing is to get the economy growing again. We saw in 2010, a
:39:47. > :39:52.strong period of economic growth, over that period 300 jobs were
:39:52. > :39:55.created in the private sector, two- thirds of which went to young
:39:56. > :39:59.people. Strong jobs growth is best for young people, not stagnating
:39:59. > :40:02.economy. We don't have a problem with the growth of the economy in
:40:02. > :40:06.the UK. We have the problem with mental problems, people are
:40:06. > :40:11.thinking young people, especially young people, who always have
:40:11. > :40:16.everything, whatever background they are from, they are usually not
:40:16. > :40:20.hungry, they didn't have to worry about delivering newspapers when
:40:20. > :40:24.they were 10 or 11, they were given everything, they have education,
:40:24. > :40:29.and they just think that they should get everything from life.
:40:29. > :40:32.They don't have to work. Is there an issue with employee rights, are
:40:32. > :40:37.people coming into the country more flexible, willing to take less and
:40:37. > :40:39.put up with more? We have a million more unemployed people than four
:40:39. > :40:43.years ago, that is not because people are laceier, but a
:40:43. > :40:48.structural problem in the economy. I do agree employers have to do
:40:48. > :40:54.more. If you look at the numbers of employers offering apprenticeships,
:40:54. > :40:58.it is only 8%, we need help for those facing long-term unemployment,
:40:58. > :41:01.getting rid of migrants won't help. There is lots of Government
:41:01. > :41:10.incentives, but we have to offer jobs at the end. You can't ask
:41:10. > :41:14.somebody to do all of this and there is nothing at the end. That
:41:14. > :41:19.girl you saw, had been on seven schemes w no job at the end, that
:41:19. > :41:23.is not right. Do you think workers coming are from other countries are
:41:23. > :41:26.more willing, not to waive rights, but willing to do the double and
:41:26. > :41:29.triple shift, where other people have kids to go home to, because
:41:29. > :41:33.they are older, whatever, that actually it is a problem for
:41:33. > :41:37.British workers, because they lose out for those kind of reasons?
:41:37. > :41:42.and there is always a trade-off, I'm not suggesting for a second
:41:42. > :41:46.that foreign workers are always better than local workers, I agree
:41:46. > :41:50.employers need to invest. If we are saying to ourselves there is no
:41:50. > :41:56.issue about work ethic, whatsoever, in the culture of this country,
:41:56. > :42:00.that is misguided. There is a huge difference between
:42:00. > :42:05.somebody who is 25, 26, coming half way across the continent to work in
:42:05. > :42:08.the UK, somebody who has just left school coming from a difficult
:42:08. > :42:12.background, no be work experience. We talk about a difficult
:42:12. > :42:16.background, that is an element, but just in terms of general work
:42:16. > :42:19.ethic? We need a transformation of our welfare state, that is what we
:42:19. > :42:23.are doing at the moment. We have to have a situation where the welfare
:42:23. > :42:29.state is not somewhere you can expect to live, it is a ladder up
:42:29. > :42:33.where you climb. All the incentives have to push you towards work. That
:42:33. > :42:39.is we are changing the benefits system so work pays, tougher rules
:42:39. > :42:42.for those not trying to find a job. All that has to happen, we need the
:42:42. > :42:44.employers to provide the opportunities too. People are
:42:44. > :42:48.saying immigration for all sorts of reasons is a good thing. You seem
:42:48. > :42:53.to be saying, and there is a co- relation, a lot of British young
:42:53. > :42:58.people are out of work and a lot of immigrants are in work, you think
:42:58. > :43:02.the two things, they are two sides of one coin? I don't think you can
:43:02. > :43:05.prepare an exact mirror of the two, I'm convinced there is a link
:43:05. > :43:09.between the growth and the number of people coming to Britain to work
:43:09. > :43:14.and some of the unemployment challenges we face, I'm sure of
:43:14. > :43:18.that. You feel the growth in immigration has contributed to
:43:19. > :43:22.unemployment. Do you think it was a mistake to let people in from the
:43:22. > :43:25.European community? There is a direct link. I think the previous
:43:25. > :43:29.Government should have had transitional controls, every other
:43:29. > :43:32.country did. You talk about a million young people unemployed, is
:43:32. > :43:36.immigration leading to higher unemployment? The evidence shows
:43:37. > :43:40.immigration has a small positive impact on employment levels in the
:43:40. > :43:44.UK. We have immigrants creating jobs and growth, that is happening
:43:44. > :43:48.in the UK. There are two things from the chart. Firstly, at the
:43:48. > :43:52.point where unemployment was increasing, levels of migration
:43:52. > :43:56.were stagnating or falling, there is not a co-relation. Secondly,
:43:56. > :44:00.areas of high unemployment in the UK, are areas of the lowest my igs
:44:01. > :44:05.gra. We talk about immigrants, let's talk about British people who
:44:06. > :44:11.haven't got jobs. Kids leave school with no idea of what they are doing.
:44:11. > :44:17.How can we expect kids leaving school, 17 and 18, they have no
:44:17. > :44:21.idea what the profession is. Work is actually fun. You have been here
:44:21. > :44:24.for a long time, you can see it coming up through the schools and
:44:24. > :44:31.attitudes, where does the problem lies? There is a mental problem,
:44:31. > :44:34.first of all, British people, because of many different reasons,
:44:34. > :44:38.but basically because you have a huge empire, and half of the world,
:44:38. > :44:44.or the whole world belonged to you, many British people think that they
:44:44. > :44:47.are better than the rest of the world. And they think that they are
:44:48. > :44:51.too good for certain jobs. And somebody else should be doing them.
:44:51. > :44:55.That is exactly what Luke Johnson was saying, the attitude is we
:44:55. > :45:00.don't have a great record in service, and we see a lot of people
:45:00. > :45:04.coming to this country who are much more interested in looking after
:45:04. > :45:07.other people. And they are saying that we don't have it in our
:45:07. > :45:13.culture, in us is this attitude of entitlement? There are clearly
:45:13. > :45:17.people out there who are not trying. But the unemployment people I meet,
:45:17. > :45:20.the long-term unemployed I meet going around the country are
:45:20. > :45:22.desperate to work. The real challenge is match those people
:45:22. > :45:26.with opportunities and find employers willing to give them the
:45:26. > :45:29.chance. There are people who would love to walk into work tomorrow,
:45:29. > :45:32.who would work extremely hard for an employer who will give them a
:45:32. > :45:37.chance. As we have been discussing, getting people off benefits and
:45:37. > :45:43.back to work is one of the coalition Government's most
:45:43. > :45:48.cherished goals. Embarrassing today, they announced the termination to
:45:48. > :45:50.do just that, under A4e. The Government has been auditing its
:45:50. > :45:54.commercial relationship with the company, and said one such contract
:45:54. > :46:00.in the south-east of England would end, because continuing it would be
:46:00. > :46:04.too great a risk. Chris Grayling is still here. We ask him about that.
:46:04. > :46:08.The findings of the audit identified no evidence at all of
:46:08. > :46:12.fraud in the company. Pretty desperate failure of judgment in
:46:12. > :46:16.hiring this company? My view, and I have said it from the start, with
:46:16. > :46:19.all of the contracts. If people don't fulfil the terms of the
:46:19. > :46:24.contracts we are prepared to terminate them. We have done that.
:46:24. > :46:28.Took a long time to do that? found out there was a problem two
:46:28. > :46:32.months ago, we have sent in an audit team, we have not identified
:46:32. > :46:35.fraud, but we have identified lax management practice, bringing them
:46:35. > :46:39.into breach of contract, and we have taken a decision to terminate
:46:39. > :46:43.it. I expect contractors to operate within the letter of the agreement
:46:43. > :46:46.reached with us, and if they don't, we are prepared to act. That is the
:46:46. > :46:50.end of the line, there is no contact between the Government and
:46:50. > :46:55.that company? This is one of the contracts. Had we discovered
:46:55. > :47:00.fraudulent behaviour, we would have finished all the contracts. We can
:47:00. > :47:05.trust everything else is in order? Everything else is in order, the
:47:05. > :47:07.work programme has had thumbs up for from those looking at it. We
:47:07. > :47:11.will look carefully at all contractors to make sure there is
:47:11. > :47:15.no problems in the future. Thank you very much. That is all from
:47:15. > :47:25.Newsnight. In China they can build a three storey building in nine
:47:25. > :47:48.
:47:48. > :47:50.days, maybe they will branch out to It's cold out there, a touch of
:47:50. > :47:54.frost first thing, would you believe. It will be a sunny start,
:47:54. > :47:58.it is said to be a fine day. There will be one or two showers, nothing
:47:58. > :48:03.like the extent or the ferocity of showers some of us have seen over
:48:03. > :48:08.the last couple of days. Dry and bright sums it up for most of us.
:48:08. > :48:12.Lighter winds and more sunshine feeling warmer. Temperatures up to
:48:12. > :48:15.14 degrees. Showers inland from the south coast of England, along the
:48:15. > :48:19.South Downs, a shower or two. South-west England had a nice day
:48:19. > :48:23.on Tuesday, more of the same on Wednesday. Broken cloud, sunny
:48:23. > :48:27.spells, fairly light winds as well. Some of the best of the sunshine
:48:27. > :48:30.across Wales will be towards the west coast. More cloud developing
:48:30. > :48:34.inland. For Northern Ireland it will tend to cloud over, with rain
:48:34. > :48:37.knocking on the door. By the time we reach the end of the afternoon.
:48:37. > :48:39.Some of that cloud will be spreading into the west of Scotland
:48:39. > :48:44.as well. Further east we hold on to the brightness through the
:48:44. > :48:48.afternoon too. Enjoy it, on Thursday it turns wet, across many
:48:48. > :48:52.northern parts of the country. Wet and chilly, some places struggle to
:48:52. > :48:57.get out of single figures all day long. Further south, well the cloud
:48:57. > :49:00.will increase, but hopefully the rain will hold off, so if you are
:49:00. > :49:04.going to the first day of the first test at Lords, you will see some