:00:13. > :00:17.Tonight, in a blow to several restaurants, but not much else, the
:00:17. > :00:21.west decides to exspell some senior Syrian diplomats, as a response to
:00:21. > :00:26.the cold-blooded murder to men, women and children, it is not what
:00:26. > :00:30.you would call, apocalyptic, what else could they do? The United
:00:30. > :00:34.Nations peace envoy hasn't found peace, nor does he have an
:00:34. > :00:43.alternative to plan now roundly redundant. The six-point plan is
:00:43. > :00:46.not being implemented as it must. We are at a tipping point. We talk
:00:46. > :00:50.to the US State Department about what ought to happen next. Amid
:00:50. > :00:54.street demonstrations against state corruption, why is the European
:00:54. > :01:01.Union so anxious to admit Montenegro.
:01:01. > :01:06.If a former Prime Minister, his best friends are Mafia bosses, I
:01:06. > :01:10.mean, how can you say that we are not a Mafia state.
:01:10. > :01:14.As the Government tells us to emulate the Victorians to build a
:01:14. > :01:18.new national infrastructure, the Archbishop of Canterbury reminds us
:01:18. > :01:22.what Dickens would have said. So you have made it, so what are
:01:22. > :01:25.you going to do? Are you going to tread on the fingers of those who
:01:25. > :01:29.got you there? Are you going to assume you have a God-given right
:01:29. > :01:33.to enjoy what you have earned, because that is all that matters?
:01:33. > :01:43.We will discuss what the Victorians did for us. And whether they are
:01:43. > :01:44.
:01:44. > :01:48.really a role model for anyone these days.
:01:48. > :01:52.Entire families in the Syrian town of Houla were shot dead in their
:01:52. > :01:56.homes by members of the militia loyal to President Al-Assad. That
:01:56. > :02:01.was the UN's verdict today, as the former secretary-general, Kofi
:02:01. > :02:05.Annan, again pleaded for the Syrian Government to abide by the
:02:05. > :02:08.completely unobserved ceasefire there. Impet tent western
:02:08. > :02:12.Governments expressed -- impotent western Governments expressed what
:02:12. > :02:17.anger they could, by throwing out Syrian ambassadors. France has made
:02:17. > :02:22.some war-like noises too. Is there any credibility in threats of
:02:22. > :02:26.military action? None whatsoever at the moment. President Hollande's
:02:26. > :02:30.statement tonight that it might be possible with a UN resolution, was
:02:30. > :02:35.a strange kind of projection. There is no prospect of a UN resolution,
:02:35. > :02:39.people talk about Russia and China that context. Let's look at Britain,
:02:39. > :02:44.the Foreign Secretary says diplomacy, the Annan Plan is the
:02:44. > :02:49.only game in town. The White House explicitly ruled out forced to. All
:02:49. > :02:53.that is left is a co-ordinated diplomatic gesture. It was co-
:02:53. > :02:58.ordinated across Europe, a diplomatic offensive giving Syrian
:02:58. > :03:04.officials their marching orders. From Paris to London, Berlin, Rome,
:03:04. > :03:09.the Hague, even in Bulgaria. Similar moves from announced in
:03:09. > :03:12.Australia, Canada and the USA too. It is all meant to increase the
:03:12. > :03:16.isolation of the Al-Assad Government. The international
:03:16. > :03:20.community is appalled by the violence that has continued, by the
:03:20. > :03:25.behaviour of the regime, and by the murder of so many innocent people,
:03:25. > :03:29.including in the terrible massacre at Houla, which was reported at the
:03:29. > :03:38.end of last week. And to get the message across to them, that they
:03:38. > :03:45.have to choose, time will run out. Most of the 100 or so lives taken
:03:45. > :03:51.at Houla today, the UN confirmed today, were the result of close-
:03:51. > :03:54.range bullet wounds by unconfirmed militia groups. This bloody
:03:54. > :04:00.confrontation has galvanised leaders to put their weight behind,
:04:00. > :04:07.once more, Kofi Annan, the former UN boss and peace envoy, who was in
:04:07. > :04:13.Damascus today to underline the urgency of the situation. I shared
:04:13. > :04:17.with President Al-Assad, my assertion that the six-point plan
:04:17. > :04:22.is not being implemented as it must. We are at a tipping point, the
:04:22. > :04:29.Syrian people do not want their future to be one of bloodshed and
:04:29. > :04:35.division. Yet the killings continue and the abusers are still with us
:04:35. > :04:39.today. What is Mr Annan's six-point plan? Effectively it is a watered-
:04:39. > :04:49.down version of an earlier Arab League map for an orderly
:04:49. > :04:59.
:04:59. > :05:05.The appeal for a UN monitored ceasefire was briefing observed,
:05:05. > :05:10.but it has since collapsed, and the call for the Government to stop
:05:10. > :05:15.using heavy weapons in population centres has been ignored. And also
:05:15. > :05:20.the provision that there should be timely humanitarian assistance to
:05:20. > :05:23.all areas affected by the fighting. If there is no possibility of
:05:24. > :05:26.military action, what alternatives are there? As I was saying there,
:05:26. > :05:31.the diplomatic package has moved further and further away are from
:05:31. > :05:35.this Arab League plan of a few months ago, that put quite specific
:05:35. > :05:39.details forward about how there might be a transition in Syria, the
:05:39. > :05:42.vice-president taking over as a caretaker, elections, all that kind
:05:42. > :05:45.of thing. It was watered down to get the Russians and Chinese on
:05:45. > :05:48.board. The further they have gone in that direction, the less likely
:05:48. > :05:52.it is that the Syrian opposition groups would accept this package,
:05:52. > :05:56.and they won't. That is an important factor here, they won't
:05:56. > :06:01.accept the Annan Plan either. In order to walk them back, the
:06:01. > :06:04.Russians and the Chinese, towards something the Syrian opposition
:06:04. > :06:07.would accept, there is this intensive diplomacy. William Hague
:06:07. > :06:12.in Moscow yesterday, President Hollande, due to meet Mr Putin
:06:13. > :06:17.later in the week. They believe that Russia is in the mood to move
:06:17. > :06:20.back some way towards something the Syrian opposition might accept.
:06:20. > :06:24.That is pretty much the only game in town. It is diplomatic, it is an
:06:24. > :06:27.attempt to bring the Russians and Chinese back into a mainstream. But
:06:27. > :06:35.it is not looking particularly likely at the moment. All the signs
:06:35. > :06:40.on the ground seem to be of escalation. For more news of what
:06:40. > :06:46.the international community might or can do, I spoke a short time ago
:06:46. > :06:49.to a member of the US State Department in Washington. It was
:06:49. > :06:53.very striking that Kofi Annan did not say that most of these killings
:06:53. > :06:59.were the work of President Al- Assad's men, were you disappointed
:06:59. > :07:03.by that? I think we have seen reports from the UN observers, and
:07:03. > :07:07.the monitors on the ground, who have talked about the fact that
:07:07. > :07:13.some of these deaths were clearly caused by heavy artillery, but also
:07:13. > :07:20.that many of the women and children were summarily executed by these
:07:21. > :07:25.gangs of thugs. The Shah hib bas, that Al-Assad -- shabihas that Al-
:07:25. > :07:30.Assad employs to do his handiwork. The fact that Kofi Annan chose not
:07:30. > :07:33.to attribute any blame, does that strike you as odd? I believe the UN
:07:33. > :07:43.monitors on the ground that there is a clear indication that this was
:07:43. > :07:44.
:07:44. > :07:50.carried out by Syrian forces. Again, it is just an atrocious act, and
:07:50. > :07:58.unforgiveable, that is why we were prompted today to ask the Syrian
:07:58. > :08:03.charges defares today here in washing don charges deaf fares to
:08:03. > :08:07.leave. It was What was the use in that?
:08:07. > :08:10.is a way of saying we reject your representative in Washington, and
:08:10. > :08:15.you have crossed a line in this latest massacre. It doesn't achieve
:08:15. > :08:21.anything, does it? We are pursuing a strategy across many fronts, we
:08:21. > :08:26.have said we will go back to the UN Security Council, if we don't feel
:08:26. > :08:30.Annan's plan will be successful. We are also continuing to keep up the
:08:30. > :08:35.economic sanctions, the political pressure on Al-Assad and his regime.
:08:35. > :08:41.The ceasefire has clearly failed, what do you want the UN Security
:08:41. > :08:44.Council to do now? We are going to wait for Kofi Annan's deputy to
:08:44. > :08:49.brief the Security Council tomorrow in New York, then we will continue
:08:49. > :08:53.to or begin to consult with our partners. Secretary Clinton was
:08:53. > :08:58.clear she would seek a chapter 7 resolution, we will continue to
:08:58. > :09:03.consult going forward. Do you not worry that with thugs
:09:03. > :09:09.going around, murdering children in their own homes, that this business
:09:09. > :09:14.of trying to consult with people is all together pretty ponderous and
:09:14. > :09:17.ineffective? Let's be clear, that it is the Al-Assad regime that is
:09:17. > :09:21.culpable here. That is responsible for the violence. The international
:09:21. > :09:24.community is increasingly speaking with one voice. You saw it from the
:09:24. > :09:28.very strong Security Council statement over the weekend. Where
:09:28. > :09:31.Russia, obvious low, and China, came on board -- obviously, and
:09:32. > :09:36.China, came on board. We think we will bring the increasing pressure
:09:36. > :09:40.to bear on Al-Assad. His cronies around him will increasingly look
:09:40. > :09:44.at themselves on the wrong side of history. France has called
:09:44. > :09:52.President Al-Assad a murderer, does the United States? Look, we have
:09:52. > :09:57.said all along, and in fact, one of the outcomes of the last Friends of
:09:57. > :10:01.Syria meeting, was an accountability group, we have made
:10:01. > :10:05.very clear we will hold those responsible for perpetrating these
:10:05. > :10:09.crimes responsible, be it Al-Assad or any of his cronies. I note you
:10:09. > :10:14.haven't used the word "murderer", it is yet more talk of talk. But is
:10:14. > :10:18.there any point at which you would contemplate military intervention?
:10:18. > :10:22.We have long said that we don't believe that further militarisation
:10:22. > :10:26.of the situation on the ground in Syria is going to do any good. What
:10:26. > :10:31.is very clear is that we need to end the violence, Al-Assad has
:10:31. > :10:35.shown no willingness, whatsoever, to comply with the Annan Plan. So
:10:35. > :10:40.we are going to go back and consult with the Security Council for next
:10:40. > :10:44.steps. Thank you for joining us.
:10:44. > :10:48.Montenegro, how many of us could find it on a map? Yet if the
:10:48. > :10:52.political elite in that country, and the political elite in the
:10:52. > :10:57.European Union get their way, some time in the near future, it will
:10:57. > :11:00.join the beacon of enlightenment, the European Union. Its tourist
:11:00. > :11:06.board calls Montenegro the pearl of the Mediterranean. Its moral
:11:06. > :11:09.reputation is another thing. The EU admits Montenegro is corrupt. You
:11:09. > :11:13.might think the organisation is in if a big enough mess, not to want
:11:13. > :11:23.to add another member with a flexible attitude for public
:11:23. > :11:25.
:11:25. > :11:32.accounting. That would misread things most seriously.
:11:32. > :11:37.The mountains of Montenegro fall away into the Adriatic, its marinas
:11:37. > :11:41.and hotels rise in the other direction. The collision of ancient
:11:41. > :11:51.towns, exclusive islands, and modern development, is pulling in
:11:51. > :11:58.tourists and billionare investors. Now it wants to join us in the EU.
:11:58. > :12:03.Yet, in a country of just 670 though, masses are Marching.
:12:04. > :12:09.Furious, that instead of -- marching, furious, that instead of
:12:09. > :12:13.benefiting from modernisation, they are paying for it.
:12:13. > :12:18.This is the latest in a series of protests that has brought thousands
:12:18. > :12:23.of Montenegrins out on to the streets.
:12:24. > :12:33.They are thoughting "thieves", accusing political leaders of
:12:34. > :12:35.
:12:35. > :12:40.looting the country they helped to build. This woman leads a growing
:12:40. > :12:43.movement calling for a break from the past. She says the EU is
:12:43. > :12:47.ignoring the reality of corruption. Everyone is closing their eyes to
:12:47. > :12:53.the fact that we are living in a country where the Government and
:12:53. > :12:58.the executive, and all parts of the power are closely linked to the
:12:58. > :13:03.organised gangs. This is the man they blame, Milo Djukanovic, six-
:13:03. > :13:08.times Prime Minister of Montenegro. He's filmed here helping anti-Mafia
:13:08. > :13:12.police with their inquiries. His name topped the indictment over an
:13:12. > :13:17.international cigarette smuggling conspiracy. The charges against him
:13:17. > :13:20.were eventually dropped, but protestors see Milo Djukanovic, who
:13:20. > :13:27.remains President of the Country's ruling party, as a damaging
:13:27. > :13:34.influence. If you have a former Prime Minister
:13:34. > :13:42.accused of the smuggling in Italy, and if his best friends are Mafia
:13:42. > :13:46.bosses, I mean, how can you say that we are not a Mafia state.
:13:47. > :13:52.Controversy surrounding Mr Duk stretches back a long way.
:13:52. > :13:57.Just over 20 years ago, Milo Djukanovic became Prime Minister of
:13:57. > :14:01.Montenegro. And ordered one of the infamous attacks of the Balkan wars.
:14:01. > :14:04.From the high ground above Dubrovnik, his forces
:14:04. > :14:11.indiscriminately shelled the ancient city, causing international
:14:11. > :14:17.outrage. The seven-month siege left more
:14:17. > :14:22.than 100 civilians dead. In the bloody wars that tore Yugoslavia
:14:22. > :14:27.apart, Djukanovic supported the Serbs. His Government handed over
:14:27. > :14:30.Bosnian Muslims, many of whom were murdered. Survivors were given
:14:30. > :14:38.compensation, while Croatian neighbours received an apology for
:14:38. > :14:42.the ruin in Dubrovnik. This is just before the siege of Dubrovnik.
:14:42. > :14:48.Montenegrin magazine has been pursuing him ever since, arguing he
:14:48. > :14:54.should be dealt with before the country joins Europe. I believe
:14:54. > :14:58.this Montenegro cannot be part of the EU before we have Milo
:14:58. > :15:08.Djukanovic charged for the financial crimes, and for the war
:15:08. > :15:10.
:15:10. > :15:15.crimes. He made Montenegro one of the most corrupt countries in
:15:15. > :15:20.Europe. The charges that Mr Duk and his allies have maintained -- Mr
:15:20. > :15:26.Duk duck and his allies have maintained -- Milo Djukanovic and
:15:26. > :15:30.his allies have relied on smuggling to earn money. At its height
:15:30. > :15:37.cigarette smuggling kept Montenegro financially afloat. Using
:15:37. > :15:44.speedboats, up to 70 of them, according to Italian sources. Every
:15:44. > :15:48.night they would tear across the waters bringing illegal cigarettes
:15:48. > :15:54.into Italy, the Mafia would distribute them throughout Europe.
:15:54. > :16:00.The Prime Minister add mits his predecessor is controversial, but
:16:00. > :16:06.says he has guided them towards EU membership, and refers to him by
:16:06. > :16:11.his former title. Prime Minister Djukanovic was the leader of the
:16:11. > :16:18.pro-independence block, he was and is still a western ally. It was him
:16:18. > :16:22.who helped Montenegro be granted status for the EU. Mr Djukanovic
:16:22. > :16:26.has been around in politic for 20 years, it is not easy to remain in
:16:26. > :16:30.politics in the western Balkans and not to be treated as fairly or
:16:30. > :16:34.unfairly and as controversial. protestors are accusing your
:16:34. > :16:41.Government of window dressing for corruption committed under the
:16:41. > :16:47.system of Milo Djukanovic. Do you recognise that? I think that
:16:47. > :16:52.everybody should be duj judged by merit. I think month -- judged by
:16:52. > :16:57.merit. I think Montenegro belongs to a rare group of countries that
:16:57. > :17:00.go have managed to make progress on every international recoginsable
:17:00. > :17:03.indicator. Outside the Prime Minister's office, protestors are
:17:03. > :17:09.demanding an investigation into the privatisation programme. Which they
:17:09. > :17:17.say has broken the back of major industries. Like alluminium. We do
:17:17. > :17:23.not have factories any more. Our major business is smuggling. Just
:17:23. > :17:27.across from the Monitor office, is the headquarters of Professor bank,
:17:27. > :17:32.or First Bank, sold off by the state, it is partly owned and
:17:32. > :17:37.controlled by the Djukanovic family. The bankers funded a lot of the
:17:37. > :17:39.development along the coast, but there are new questions about its
:17:39. > :17:44.operation. We have obtained documents that show, for the first
:17:44. > :17:51.time, what was really going on inside the Djukanovic bank. This is
:17:51. > :17:54.a report from accountants Price Waterhouse, it shows most of the
:17:54. > :17:58.money deposited at the bank came from public fund, while two-thirds
:17:58. > :18:03.of the money handed out in loan, went to the Djukanovics and their
:18:03. > :18:09.asolts. The report -- associates. The
:18:09. > :18:13.report, which was never published, shows that money went to groups
:18:13. > :18:17.convicted of drug smuggling. And others indicted with Milo
:18:17. > :18:23.Djukanovic by the anti-Mafia unit. This journalist said the bank had
:18:23. > :18:28.been used as a personal cash machine. It was an ATM for the
:18:29. > :18:34.private interests. I need to boy real estate, where do I get money?
:18:34. > :18:38.-- buy real estate, where do I get money? I go to the bank. Nobody
:18:38. > :18:41.noticed, Montenegro had unilaterally adopted the euro as
:18:41. > :18:45.its currency, the economy was booming, and the coastline
:18:45. > :18:55.transforming. The country was excitingly recast, the obvious
:18:55. > :19:00.
:19:00. > :19:05.place to relaunch an icon of sophistication.
:19:05. > :19:10.But the financial crisis washed up here too. And The House of Cards
:19:10. > :19:20.collapsed. The Djukanovic Government had to bail out the
:19:20. > :19:28.Djukanovic Bank. Then it had to be repaid confidential documents show
:19:28. > :19:33.a series of unusual transactions. The way it went is the Government
:19:33. > :19:38.borrowed �1 million, and the Government back to the bank, it was
:19:38. > :19:45.�1 million. That happened 11-times. So effectively, what was happening
:19:45. > :19:49.here? It was Ping-Pong in millions. By the end of all that, the
:19:49. > :19:59.Government had effectively picked up the tab. That ofn't the only
:19:59. > :20:01.
:20:01. > :20:08.oddity. The most outrageous thing we found was in 2008, the bank
:20:08. > :20:14.failed to pay deposors in time, but they found many thousands and
:20:14. > :20:22.millions to bank roll a concert by Madonna. The money was supposed to
:20:22. > :20:26.come from private sponsors, instead it came mainly from public funds.
:20:26. > :20:34.Only last week EU officials said corruption remained a serious
:20:34. > :20:39.concern. Others have been harsher, the influential foreign affairs
:20:39. > :20:43.magazine called Montenegro a Mafia state. Angering its Prime Minister.
:20:43. > :20:47.That is ungrounded. How can a country that is supposed to open
:20:48. > :20:52.accession talks next month with the EU, which is selected among the ten
:20:52. > :20:58.most committed to transparency reforms be claimed the way it was
:20:58. > :21:04.claimed? Whatever the ructions over Greece, the accession of the Balkan
:21:04. > :21:09.states remains a priority for the EU. Perhaps a triumph of hope over
:21:09. > :21:12.experience, today the commission said next month's talks will help
:21:12. > :21:16.bring Montenegro up to European standards.
:21:16. > :21:19.The European Commission actually has a whole arm devoted to EU
:21:19. > :21:23.enlargement, which advises countries like Montenegro, on how
:21:23. > :21:27.to fast-track their way into the club.
:21:27. > :21:32.Stefano Sannino is the director- general of the European Commission
:21:32. > :21:40.for enlargement. He joins us from Brussels. Can you tell us how the
:21:40. > :21:46.EU would be improved by admitting a Mafia state? First of all, the
:21:46. > :21:51.definition of Mafia state is a little bit unfair in the as soon as
:21:51. > :21:55.when you define a whole country and condemn a whole country, it is
:21:55. > :22:00.always some how going a little bit beyond what is the real problem,
:22:00. > :22:03.like the one that Montenegro has concerning corruption. You accept
:22:04. > :22:09.that corruption exists in Montenegro, don't you? We do accept,
:22:09. > :22:14.and we have written in our report, that it remains a problem that
:22:14. > :22:18.needs to be addressed, and continues to be addressed. We have
:22:18. > :22:23.also written in our report that there are efforts that have been
:22:23. > :22:27.made in the last year-and-a-half, concerning the fact that this
:22:27. > :22:34.corruption, when it comes to the definition of a more proper legal
:22:34. > :22:37.framework, when it comes to the development of a track record of
:22:37. > :22:43.the fight against corruption in different phase. When it comes also
:22:43. > :22:50.to the reaction of the civil society to the issue of corruption
:22:50. > :22:56.in Montenegro. Is it close to doing any of those things? We believe
:22:56. > :23:02.that a big effort has been certainly made in the definition of
:23:03. > :23:06.a proper legal framework. Recently there has been laws that have been
:23:06. > :23:13.passed earning the financing of political parties, or law on free
:23:13. > :23:16.access of information. Or initiatives to avoid the conflict
:23:16. > :23:21.of interest, there were a number of Members of Parliament who are
:23:21. > :23:25.members of management boards of private companies, and had to
:23:25. > :23:31.resign from their positions. From that point of view, there has been
:23:31. > :23:35.a clear improvement. I ask you the question again, sorry to cut across
:23:35. > :23:45.you, I ask you the question again, how is the EU improved by admitting
:23:45. > :23:46.
:23:47. > :23:51.a country in this state? The EU has the enlargement of the EU an
:23:51. > :23:56.element which is part of the story of the EU. It is an element that
:23:56. > :24:02.this part of the DNA. We believe that enlarging to the western
:24:02. > :24:05.Balkans is part of creating a narrative for the EU of
:24:05. > :24:10.reconciliation, and of stability and security for all the countries
:24:10. > :24:16.for the region. We believe that by improving the conditions in this
:24:16. > :24:20.country situation, in Montenegro, also the situation in the European
:24:20. > :24:25.Union, it can improve in terms of stability and security. Is anyone
:24:25. > :24:35.in Brussels considering whether this policy of constant enlargement
:24:35. > :24:39.is a sensible one? We believe that in spite of the fact it may be now
:24:39. > :24:43.that the appetite for enlargement may be reduced, it is still one of
:24:43. > :24:47.the most successful policies of the EU. If we think in terms it of the
:24:47. > :24:51.enlargement to the centre of western European countries, or to
:24:51. > :24:57.the countries that are coming out from dictatorship, like Spain,
:24:57. > :25:01.Portugal or Greece. These are all elements that have created again
:25:01. > :25:06.stability, security and better prosperity, even in the European
:25:06. > :25:08.Union. Your definition of stability is very interesting, I wonder
:25:09. > :25:14.whether in the current circumstances, it might be thought
:25:14. > :25:24.wise to put some of this expansion on hold, while you sort out the
:25:24. > :25:25.
:25:25. > :25:29.crisis in the euro? The euro crisis has not been determined by the
:25:29. > :25:33.enlargement in central and eastern European countries. There are
:25:33. > :25:36.problems that are touching countries that were, very very
:25:36. > :25:40.beginning of the story of the union itself. I wouldn't say this is a
:25:40. > :25:50.problem of enlargement. It is a problem of the countries of the
:25:50. > :25:51.
:25:51. > :25:58.European Union. I do understand that determination to move ahead in
:25:58. > :26:04.the area of enlargement, is now being used, and member states are
:26:04. > :26:07.asking us to be much more careful in the process. In making it sure
:26:07. > :26:12.that if and when we are admitting the member states, we are making
:26:12. > :26:15.sure it has all the capacities to - - capacity to bear the
:26:15. > :26:17.responsibilities and duties of a report member-state. Thank you for
:26:17. > :26:22.joining us. To the second of our films looking
:26:22. > :26:26.at this country through the eyes of three English authors. Shakespeare
:26:26. > :26:30.last night, Dickens tonight. The Prime Minister keeps banging on
:26:30. > :26:35.about how essential it is for this country to rediscover the spirit
:26:35. > :26:40.which drove the Victorian, to build railways, waterways and sewers. He
:26:40. > :26:44.appears to believe that such a dediscovery is the only way to stop
:26:44. > :26:49.us falling further behind other western countries. As the man who
:26:49. > :26:58.dropped down the chimney in Nicholas Nickleby, bring on the
:26:58. > :27:06.lightning, a clean tumble or a corkscrew.
:27:06. > :27:10.-- a clean tumbler, or a corkscrew. It was the best of times, it was
:27:10. > :27:14.the worst of times. There is now an urgent need to build for the future,
:27:14. > :27:18.with as much confidence and ambition as the Victorians once did.
:27:18. > :27:23.It was the age of wisdom, it was the age of foolishness.
:27:23. > :27:30.Infrastructure isn't just about business, it is an all pevasive
:27:30. > :27:34.force in society too. Money can do anything. What is it people want
:27:34. > :27:40.for the future? They want reasonable things, a decent home, a
:27:40. > :27:43.clean environment, jobs for their children. Please, Sir, can we have
:27:43. > :27:49.some more. Every transforming generation in our history, has left
:27:49. > :27:56.a legacy like their's. I say, we must get out, be bold, and create a
:27:56. > :28:00.legacy of our own. God bless us, every one.
:28:00. > :28:05.Enormous heaps of earth and clay were thrown up, wrote Dickens,
:28:05. > :28:09.about the railway coming to Camden Town in London. He could have been
:28:09. > :28:13.decribing the CrossRail project in the capital today.
:28:13. > :28:18.Is this the kind of thing that Mr Cameron had in mind when he talked
:28:18. > :28:23.about the new Victorian. This huge great piece of kit, tunnelling
:28:23. > :28:26.under the surface of London. Well, the Victorians would certainly
:28:26. > :28:30.recognise the enterprise and the ambition, if not the same scale of
:28:30. > :28:37.this. Because the first underground
:28:37. > :28:41.railways anywhere, were excavated beneath this city, years ago by the
:28:41. > :28:45.Victorian. They followed almost -- 150 years ago by the Victorians.
:28:45. > :28:49.They followed exactly the same route. The scale of things we are
:28:49. > :28:53.doing today are comparable, they are bigger, larger and more
:28:53. > :28:57.sophisticated. But there is a sense of going back to the Victorian days
:28:57. > :29:05.to value infrastructure across the UK. It is not only great public
:29:05. > :29:13.works that we associate with the Victorians.
:29:13. > :29:18.In layman's terms, the adjective "dixenian" is a darker vision, it
:29:18. > :29:24.is the other side of the coin of industrial development, it is
:29:24. > :29:29.exploitation, poverty, hopelessness. Are we living through Dickensian
:29:29. > :29:34.times, as most of us would understand the term? My main sense
:29:34. > :29:38.is an anxiety that the gulf between the top and bottom of the economic
:29:38. > :29:46.ladder has grown and is growing. That is not something we really
:29:46. > :29:50.tackled. Are you disappointed? feel disappointed? I think I do.
:29:50. > :29:54.I think there have been moments in the last decade and more, when
:29:54. > :29:59.perhaps we might have been able to take a different line. So many
:29:59. > :30:04.people have said, privately and publicly, the financial crisis
:30:04. > :30:07.means there is no going back, we can't restore the boom economy
:30:07. > :30:11.there was, we have to think again about what wealth is for. We have
:30:11. > :30:18.to think again about the role of trust, and personal relationship in
:30:18. > :30:22.business. I think, yes, yes and yes, and where are the signs of it. So a
:30:22. > :30:29.couple of challenges we haven't risen to, with a generosity that
:30:29. > :30:36.Dickens might have encouraged us to feel.
:30:36. > :30:40.Dickens travelled to Preston by train, to report on the lot of the
:30:40. > :30:46.industrial working-class. His novel, Hard Times, based on his
:30:46. > :30:50.experiences in the North West, documents their punishing working
:30:50. > :30:56.lives, and unenviable living conditions.
:30:56. > :31:02.Team was king, powering Britain's factories and ships. And the
:31:02. > :31:10.railways, of course. We are on our way. This is
:31:10. > :31:13.fantastic. Times were hard, as Dickens observed, but at least
:31:13. > :31:17.there was plenty of working to around. The boys and girls of the
:31:17. > :31:22.Ribble Steam Railway, keep the Victorian dream alive here. But
:31:22. > :31:28.what about life in the rest of Preston, in the time of David
:31:28. > :31:33.Cameron's new Victorians. Preston is a post-industrial city.
:31:33. > :31:36.It has levels of unemployment which actually affect the national
:31:36. > :31:40.average, it also has underemployment. It still has many
:31:40. > :31:45.of the problems that it had in the 19th century, about people not
:31:45. > :31:53.being able to get enough money to meet the costs of their daily lives.
:31:53. > :31:58.I think he would recognise those issues if he came here today. There
:31:58. > :32:03.isn't so much of the philanthropy that there was in the 19th century
:32:03. > :32:07.here either. There isn't the great infrastructure projects, there
:32:07. > :32:11.aren't people leaving vast legacies to build things like the Harris
:32:11. > :32:18.Museum. The fine classical facade of the Harris Museum, is testament
:32:18. > :32:25.to the days when city fathers put their hands in their own deep ducts,
:32:25. > :32:29.-- pockets to make Preston proud. If we are return to boldness, we
:32:29. > :32:32.shouldn't forget what is happening in our own back yards. I would like
:32:32. > :32:36.to think the Prime Minister is right about living in an age of
:32:36. > :32:41.national ambition. Its not just about national ambition, it is
:32:41. > :32:46.about and civic ambition, about the sense of the real pride about the
:32:46. > :32:50.immediate environment. The great relic of Victorian life in Leeds,
:32:50. > :32:56.Manchester and Cardiff. Where you see how people invest themselves in
:32:56. > :33:00.belonging together in a city that they are proud of.
:33:00. > :33:10.That we have lost, and I would like to see that coming back on to the
:33:10. > :33:14.radar strongly. Preston's one place where they have
:33:14. > :33:17.always talk local. Lusty-voiced, amateur singers, are tuning up for
:33:17. > :33:22.a great anniversary. It isn't the Jubilee.
:33:23. > :33:27.It is a celebration, which only comes around once every 20 years.
:33:27. > :33:33.Of the early traders who got together in these parts back in the
:33:33. > :33:38.Middle Ages, to form something known as the Preston build.
:33:39. > :33:43.-- Preston guild. It is all about communities, and how much we all
:33:43. > :33:49.enjoy being together. We have the Olympics and the Jubilee on the
:33:49. > :33:53.back burner and celebrating the Guild. Why is it so good? It is
:33:53. > :34:00.Preston girls, far more important than anything going on in the
:34:00. > :34:06.country, the world actually. The poet Lemn Sissay, a Lancashire
:34:06. > :34:11.lad himself, has written Anwar them to be performed at the Guild
:34:11. > :34:15.festivities later in the year. A celebrated writer, who travelled
:34:15. > :34:19.to Preston many years before Sissay, was also interested in the lives of
:34:19. > :34:26.people. Communities. And how they fared in the shadow of the grand
:34:26. > :34:31.project. -- in the events of their day.
:34:31. > :34:34.was incredible about Dickens, is he was in the middle of the Victorian
:34:34. > :34:40.boom. The celebration of greater ambition, and what he would do is
:34:40. > :34:44.each day, he would walk the streets of London, for two hours. Dickens
:34:44. > :34:51.saw the people, where as the narrative spoke about the great
:34:51. > :34:57.nation. There was a difference between the narrative of the great
:34:57. > :35:00.nation, and the people on the street.
:35:01. > :35:09.But while Dickens studied the lot of the Victorian working-classes,
:35:09. > :35:15.his ideas about how to help them ran on conventional lines.
:35:15. > :35:21.He didn't want them to get above their station, says one historian
:35:21. > :35:26.He's not really about systemic change. That's the great paradox at
:35:26. > :35:29.the heart of Dickens heart, although he was a performer, and
:35:30. > :35:34.want to go make life better for people. In terms of what he's want
:35:34. > :35:37.to go do in the novel, it is conservative. He has found a way of
:35:37. > :35:42.healing the lives of the main characters, and how they get healed
:35:42. > :35:43.is through individual acts of love, kindness and charity. They are not
:35:43. > :35:48.through wholesale intervention by the state.
:35:48. > :35:53.As you say, there is this thread in Dickens that it is not just about
:35:53. > :36:03.making money, it is what you do with it. Have we lost sight of that,
:36:03. > :36:03.
:36:03. > :36:08.if not, are people putting enough back, business oblig e. Right from
:36:08. > :36:15.the start you have Dickens characters who are ludicrously
:36:15. > :36:18.generous, the Cheeryble brothers in Nicholas Nickleby. But Dickens is
:36:18. > :36:24.pointing out the fact that these people have used their prosperity
:36:24. > :36:28.for others. The next point is you have made it, will you tread on the
:36:28. > :36:31.fingers of those who got you there, or assume a God-given right to
:36:31. > :36:34.enjoy what you have earned, that is all that matters, or will you see
:36:34. > :36:41.it in terms of responsibility. is something they could perhaps
:36:41. > :36:46.learn a few miles down the road? think Dickens would have
:36:46. > :36:53.interesting novels to write about the city in the early 21st century.
:36:53. > :36:57.It is more general than that, a climate which is often fearful of
:36:57. > :37:02.those above and he below on the social ladder, and therefore, fist-
:37:02. > :37:07.clenching, anxious, not generous, and if there is one thing that
:37:07. > :37:11.Dickens is absolutely preoccupied with, obsessed with, is how you let
:37:11. > :37:17.go of that anxiety. That clutching your resources to yourself. You
:37:18. > :37:24.have to grow through generosity, that is, I think, the Dickens
:37:24. > :37:28.lesson I would want to see etched in granite across this country.
:37:28. > :37:35.Fresh from the work horse are historian and MP, Tristram Hunt,
:37:35. > :37:41.who wrote Building Jerusalem, the rise and fall of the great city.
:37:41. > :37:51.An ardent Dickensian, and historian and author, Kate Williams. Are you
:37:51. > :37:52.
:37:52. > :38:00.an ardent Victorian as well? Yes, but there are lots of kal fires.
:38:00. > :38:05.But they are living -- qal -- The inequality, continuing now, was of
:38:05. > :38:12.great concern. Jo it seems mistaken to link Dickens to the Victorians.
:38:12. > :38:17.He has talked about the Victorian writer, but most of his writing was
:38:17. > :38:24.pre -Victorian period. I would have thought one of the key things about
:38:24. > :38:29.the Victorian era, is by the late Victorian era, Britain had passed
:38:29. > :38:33.its appag y. Above all manufactureed and machine tools, is
:38:33. > :38:41.that Britain had already been overtaken by the Germans and United
:38:41. > :38:45.States. Also a public school ethic which had enormous importance and
:38:45. > :38:50.had a disastrous impact on the future of British Industry and
:38:50. > :38:55.economy. I think it is right. What is interesting about Hard Times,
:38:55. > :39:00.which is one of the few moments when Dickens goes outside of London.
:39:00. > :39:06.I don't think it is a particularly successful book, but the philosophy
:39:06. > :39:11.he was wrestling with there, is the philosophy of utilitarianism, he
:39:11. > :39:15.was going to call it other things. He was battling against the
:39:15. > :39:20.amorality of the Industrial Revolution, not just pollution and
:39:21. > :39:27.commiseration. That is a philosophy of the 1810s and 20s, and through
:39:27. > :39:31.to the Victorian period. Dickens is dealing, Max is right. He writes
:39:31. > :39:35.about the earlier work house, the work house is continuing. Exactly
:39:35. > :39:42.the same system. This is the concern. The philosophy of the new
:39:42. > :39:47.poor law, again, is a pre-Victorian deal. What about the idea of the
:39:47. > :39:50.constant invocation of the new Victorian cage? God forbid, I can't
:39:50. > :39:55.think of anything more disastrous. In particular, the public school
:39:55. > :40:01.ethic, this is not a class issue, but in terms of the ethic that the
:40:01. > :40:05.public schools are perpetrated, the obsession with the arts and classic,
:40:05. > :40:10.the anti-scientific bias in for public schools, and will be
:40:10. > :40:14.disastrous for Britain in the next century. That is one story in it, a
:40:14. > :40:20.story which David Cameron doesn't understand. He wants these big
:40:20. > :40:25.infrastructure project, HS2, CrossRail, and pour more money into
:40:25. > :40:29.London. The whole point about the Victorian period is you had an
:40:29. > :40:33.equality. Manchester, Glasgow and- on-Trent, were as important as
:40:33. > :40:43.London. If you are really a modern Victorian, you begin HS2 in
:40:43. > :40:45.
:40:45. > :40:49.Manchester. Manchester was theed modern city? It was built on the
:40:49. > :40:54.free trade principle. You have such wealth and civic pride there, you
:40:54. > :40:59.didn't need the loose, 18th sent free London, which Cameron seems to
:40:59. > :41:03.have. That is what we don't have. The notion of our moral-owned
:41:03. > :41:07.responsibility. The Victorian, wherever they could, did believe it.
:41:07. > :41:11.When we think about the perception and coverage of the Greek crisis,
:41:11. > :41:15.Christine Lagarde is saying they spent too much and they don't
:41:15. > :41:18.deserve our help. That is a complete Victorian notion of the
:41:19. > :41:23.deserving poor. That is what we are interesting to look at.
:41:23. > :41:28.The great thing about the Victorian, for all the stuff about balancing
:41:28. > :41:32.the books, they weren't afraid of debt. How did they build the Town
:41:32. > :41:39.Halls and infrastructures, local authorities could go massively into
:41:39. > :41:47.debt. That is how they could achieve so much. All the Thatcher
:41:47. > :41:51.stuff aboutle baing the book, and what my Victorian grandmother told
:41:52. > :41:55.me. Are we saying, the one thing that Victorians were really good at
:41:55. > :41:59.was local Government. Local self- Government was the abiding idea
:41:59. > :42:05.they had which they traced back to the Saxons. This what partly gave
:42:05. > :42:10.the energy to the cities of the Victorian period, such prowess.
:42:10. > :42:13.is changing things when sawers are sunk and drains are laid on and
:42:14. > :42:17.water and electricity and glass. These are seen as public goods. Is
:42:17. > :42:24.something changes when they become a matter of private enterprise and
:42:24. > :42:32.there is some small obscure item on a balance sheet out some where.
:42:32. > :42:35.do did they begin, we have this array of train stations, our
:42:35. > :42:39.Fenchurch, Canon, King's Cross. Because private enterprise does it
:42:39. > :42:43.to begin with. It is not the most efficient manner. Only in the
:42:43. > :42:47.latter half of the 19th century do you begin to get a proper sensible
:42:47. > :42:55.direction, and state intervention, to deliver these things. This idea
:42:55. > :43:02.of the Victorian period being minimalist, and night watch line is
:43:02. > :43:07.a charicature. We would only agree that only very stupid people
:43:07. > :43:12.idealise the Victorian era. What I mean is although the Victorians had
:43:12. > :43:16.a colossal energy, when one look f one says if Dickens were here now,
:43:16. > :43:20.would he recognise anything he said. He would recognise people like Bob
:43:20. > :43:25.scam diamond, and embrace these people, as living descendants of
:43:25. > :43:30.all the ghastly Nicholas Nickleby that he wrote about. On the other
:43:30. > :43:37.hand, the era of absolute poverty, that he wrote about. Unspeakable
:43:37. > :43:42.poverty, in both town and country, thank God, is no longer with us.
:43:42. > :43:48.is coming back because of the dismandling of the benefits system.
:43:48. > :43:57.We are becoming the virsorian d dismantling of the benefits system.
:43:57. > :44:04.We are becoming like the -- Victorians dismantling the benefits
:44:04. > :44:13.system. We are increasingly turning into a Victorian version, as the
:44:13. > :44:21.benefits system is dismantled, do we put everyone in a bubble.
:44:21. > :44:25.think the idea of workfulness, duty, that non-conformist inheritance.
:44:25. > :44:31.Kate Williams was talking a lot about, the ideas of the
:44:31. > :44:34.philanthropy and so on? We don't have that now. I would have thought
:44:34. > :44:40.philanthropy was always a minority activity. I would have thought we
:44:40. > :44:46.still have a terrific, all the modern Sainsbury's, and such like.
:44:46. > :44:51.Now we get a tax break. I'm not persuaded there are any
:44:51. > :44:55.more or fewer than there were now. What we don't have, which is what
:44:55. > :44:59.they had, are those middle-class, non-conformists, who readered
:44:59. > :45:05.themselves in competition with each other, and sought to emulate each
:45:05. > :45:12.other, to give money to the Harris Museum, the Town Hall, the park, as
:45:12. > :45:18.part of their civic duet. We don't have the -- duties. You don't have
:45:18. > :45:22.head offices, you have branches in Leicester, in Nottingham, you don't
:45:22. > :45:27.have the civic elite in bed with the community. You are right about
:45:27. > :45:35.that, it is very important. A lot of these people are driven by very
:45:35. > :45:39.strong impulses? We have to figure out how to get back there.
:45:39. > :45:42.notion that we have responsibility, it will turn a searching eye that
:45:42. > :45:47.we see ourselves as disadvantaged because we don't have three
:45:47. > :45:55.holidays a year, that is why we don't give money to the poor people
:45:55. > :46:02.in this country. We expect the state to sort everything out.
:46:02. > :46:06.year we commemorate the sent teenry of Octavia Hill, a strong belief
:46:06. > :46:15.that there should be a respectable working-class, that they had duties
:46:15. > :46:24.as well as rights. The 5% fall lanthropy meant you paid your --
:46:24. > :46:28.philanthropy meant you paid your bills in the right time.
:46:28. > :46:32.Increase reeing we will see only the good poor -- increasingly we
:46:32. > :46:37.will see only the good poor get anything. We are living in harsh
:46:37. > :46:43.world. Back to the Victorians, they lived on this massive commercial
:46:43. > :46:46.empire of exploitation. On Thursday our series continues with a look at
:46:46. > :46:54.what the changing times of James Bond tell us about Britain's place
:46:54. > :46:58.in the world. We are on set with the producer, Michael G Wilson.
:46:58. > :47:08.have informally spoken with various people who are part of the British
:47:08. > :47:08.
:47:08. > :47:18.SAS, or SBS, it isn't as far fetched as you might think.
:47:18. > :47:37.
:47:37. > :47:42.Tomorrow morning's front pagess now:
:47:42. > :47:49.That's all tonight, tomorrow lots on what will happen if Greece takes
:47:49. > :47:58.a nose dive out of the sky. The Beach Boys are visiting for a one-
:47:59. > :48:02.off concert in Wembley. # The sun tanned bodies and wave of
:48:02. > :48:06.sunshinele Michael foreignia girls with the
:48:06. > :48:16.beautiful coast line # Warmed up weather, let's get
:48:16. > :48:19.
:48:19. > :48:29.together and do it again -- # Californian girls with the
:48:29. > :48:34.
:48:34. > :48:37.beautiful coastline Some sunshine, more showers thaned
:48:37. > :48:41.today. A bright, sunny start for England and Wales. The cloud
:48:41. > :48:44.increase, the showers developing, they move across from the west.
:48:44. > :48:48.Fairly well scattered showers s most on the light side. There will
:48:48. > :48:54.be sunshine inbetween the showers across northern England and the
:48:54. > :48:58.Midland. When the sunshine is out it shouldn't feel too bad. Des
:48:58. > :49:02.might showers, highest temperatures 24. Not far off today. Cooler for
:49:02. > :49:06.the south west of England, showers easing down, later on in the
:49:06. > :49:13.afternoon, with more sunshine. Wales as the showers moves in order
:49:13. > :49:16.warts across the country, the south of -- in other words across the
:49:16. > :49:19.country, the south of the country will have better weather. More
:49:19. > :49:23.cloud in Northern Ireland than today. A bit cooler. For most of