:00:12. > :00:16.We cannot allow mass killing to become part of every day reality in
:00:16. > :00:21.Syria, the words of the UN's envoy, Kofi Annan, decribing exactly what
:00:21. > :00:25.now seems to be happening. In the latest outrage, 78 civilians, many
:00:25. > :00:27.women and children, apparently slaughtered with the finger again
:00:27. > :00:31.being pointed at pro-Government militia. We will hear from the
:00:31. > :00:39.women in the UN mission that was shot at, and ask if Syria is
:00:39. > :00:44.descending into civil war. It is raining, the British weather is
:00:44. > :00:49.with me. David Cameron meets Angela Merkel in Berlin, but can Britain
:00:49. > :00:54.avoid the political weather in the two-speed Europe. We will discuss
:00:54. > :00:57.if it is right to pursue a eurozone with Britain on the outside. Forced
:00:57. > :01:02.marriage, tomorrow the Government plans to make it a criminal offence.
:01:02. > :01:06.Will this help the women victim, or quite the reverse. We will debate
:01:06. > :01:10.with two campaigners who take opposite sides on the new law.
:01:10. > :01:20.The European country, where being a midwife at a home birth can get you
:01:20. > :01:24.arrested, a personal report from Hungary.
:01:24. > :01:27.Good evening, if words were bullet, the Syrian regime would already be
:01:27. > :01:31.full of holes. At the United Nations, the secretary-general, Ban
:01:31. > :01:35.Ki-Moon, spoke of the unspeakable brutality of the latest massacre.
:01:35. > :01:39.Dozens were killed, 19 of them reportedly women and children. With
:01:39. > :01:43.the UN's own investigators coming under fire. President Assad and his
:01:43. > :01:46.Government have lost all legitimacy, Ban Ki-Moon said. With 50 countries
:01:46. > :01:49.now planning to meet in Paris next month, to discuss how to get rid of
:01:49. > :01:53.the Assad regime, what is particularly shocking in this
:01:53. > :01:59.report, is that so many of the victims are indeed women and
:01:59. > :02:07.children. The scenes which follow are quite horrific.
:02:07. > :02:12.Two weeks ago it was Houla, now the Hama province. Here, as there,
:02:12. > :02:16.reports of shelling and then claims that militia men from Alawite
:02:16. > :02:20.villages, that surround Sunni populated Qubair, went in on a
:02:20. > :02:26.killing spree. It all speaks to a growing tide of violence, and the
:02:26. > :02:32.breaking down of the structure of a multiethnic state. The question is
:02:32. > :02:36.now how far out of control is it going to get. Are the regime
:02:36. > :02:39.secretly directing everything? It is unlikely, there are certainly
:02:39. > :02:41.some groups operating independently on either side. In the same way the
:02:42. > :02:46.opposition themselves are not controlling all the opposition
:02:46. > :02:51.activity. Today, Syrian state television
:02:51. > :02:57.blamed this latest act on terrorist groups too. Last week, President
:02:57. > :03:01.Assad went to parliament to deny any official role in the Houla
:03:01. > :03:06.killings. TRANSLATION: We will remain ashamed every time we
:03:06. > :03:10.remember Houla, and I remember that the Houla massacre will not remain
:03:10. > :03:15.engraved in the eyes of the children. Are the denials credible,
:03:15. > :03:18.even if these latest incidents were perpetrated by rogue groups, the
:03:18. > :03:24.Syrian Government still has a general responsibility for arming
:03:24. > :03:28.certain militias, and indeed, adopting sectarian tactics. It has
:03:28. > :03:33.been the regime's tactic, right from the word go, since the
:03:33. > :03:37.uprising began in March of last year, to really play on the fears
:03:37. > :03:42.of sectarian violence. To make people in Syria afraid that what
:03:42. > :03:46.happened in Lebanon and Iraq could happen in Syria, moing the
:03:46. > :03:50.different ethnic and sectarian communities that exist there. Even
:03:50. > :03:54.though it looks quite bad from the outside, internally it continues to
:03:54. > :04:01.play into this wider narrative the regime is spinning, that they are
:04:01. > :04:06.the only defence against Syria defending into sectarian violence.
:04:06. > :04:11.Today's pictures have shocked, but equally the escalation of violence
:04:11. > :04:15.by opponents of the Assad regime, for example, using car bombs, has
:04:15. > :04:24.also caused accusation and denial. It all suggests a train of violence
:04:24. > :04:29.increasingly out of control. So is a picture of suicide bombing,
:04:29. > :04:33.militia groups that operate as death squad, and warring ethnic
:04:33. > :04:37.factions credible? Well, certainly, that is the position that Iraq
:04:37. > :04:41.found itself in seven or eight years ago. It is quite possible
:04:41. > :04:45.that Syria is well on the way there too.
:04:45. > :04:49.The question now, is whether anything can be done to check that
:04:49. > :04:54.slide towards oblivion. Reporting to the United Nations in
:04:54. > :04:58.New York today, its former boss, and now Syria envoy, Kofi Annan,
:04:58. > :05:03.painted a bleak picture of events on the ground. With his six-point
:05:03. > :05:08.peace plan being widely ignored, he urged a new initiative.
:05:08. > :05:13.The longer we wait, the more radicalised and polarised the
:05:13. > :05:19.situation will become. And the harder it will be to forge a
:05:19. > :05:26.political settlement. The international community has united,
:05:26. > :05:34.but it now must take that unity to a new level. We must find the will,
:05:34. > :05:40.and the common ground to act, and act as one. Individual actions, or
:05:40. > :05:45.interventions, will not resolve the crisis. But Mr Annan is hemmed in
:05:45. > :05:49.on all sides. China and Russia, whose leaders have met today, have
:05:49. > :05:54.rallied allied countries to their position that the Assad regime
:05:54. > :05:58.cannot be changed by outside military intervention. TRANSLATION:
:05:58. > :06:02.We do not think that Annan's plan is dead, or it does not exist any
:06:02. > :06:05.more, and there is no need to implement it or to fulfil the UN
:06:05. > :06:10.Security Council resolutions. These attempts to say it is dead are
:06:10. > :06:16.unacceptable. Civil strive is already widespread
:06:16. > :06:20.in Syria, and never mind the debate about whether this is civil war or
:06:20. > :06:25.not. With violence escalating and diplomatic options narrowed, it
:06:26. > :06:28.will be a brutal summer. The Annan Plan, as we heard, may or
:06:28. > :06:32.may not be dead, but it is certainly not working, is there
:06:32. > :06:37.anything else they can do, a Plan B? Kofi Annan has been in with the
:06:37. > :06:40.Security Council tonight, briefing them. He's tried to put some flesh,
:06:40. > :06:42.I think, on the bones of that suggestion he made in the General
:06:42. > :06:46.Assembly there, that the international community needs to
:06:46. > :06:50.raise its level of involvement here. He has talked about clear
:06:50. > :06:54.consequences for Syria, if it doesn't fulfil its part of the
:06:54. > :06:57.Annan Plan. Which is to do with ceasefire, withdrawing heavy
:06:57. > :07:01.weapons, allowing humanitarian access, that type of thing. Now, is
:07:01. > :07:05.that possible with Russia and China holding the positions they do?
:07:05. > :07:09.Clear consequences would seem to mean sanctions, or further
:07:09. > :07:11.additional pressure, maybe, just possibly, it is going to be
:07:11. > :07:16.achievable, because those two countries did sign up to the Annan
:07:16. > :07:21.Plan. But any sort of more energetic intervention doesn't seem
:07:21. > :07:24.credible. Mr Annan has also pushed this idea of trying to form a
:07:24. > :07:29.Contact Group, that the permanent five members of the Security
:07:29. > :07:36.Council, and one or two other regional powers, Turkey, Saudi
:07:36. > :07:38.Arabia, but also Iran, the UK and the US are sceptical that could
:07:38. > :07:42.achieve anything. We sense the diplomacy meandering about trying
:07:42. > :07:45.to find purpose and meaning and not succeeding. Even if he does get
:07:45. > :07:48.somewhere in that little space between what the Russians and
:07:48. > :07:52.Chinese are prepared to agree to, and the western powers want, the
:07:52. > :07:56.big question still unanswered, in trying to bring about an orderly
:07:56. > :08:02.transition of power in Syria, will the opposition go along with that.
:08:02. > :08:09.So far, they haven't. A little earlier I spoke on the
:08:09. > :08:18.phone to Mikhail Gorbachev in -- Sausan Ghosheh in Damascus, I asked
:08:18. > :08:22.her what happened when the UN monitors tried to enter Qubair.
:08:22. > :08:25.dispatched patrols to go to al- Qubair, they have spend the whole
:08:25. > :08:29.morning to try to get into the village to try to figure out what
:08:29. > :08:34.happened, to verify the reports of large scale killings in that
:08:34. > :08:40.village. Until sunset they weren't able to go in. They returned back
:08:40. > :08:47.to our base in Hama. They will go back again tomorrow morning.
:08:47. > :08:53.Ki-Moon was saying that gunmen shot at the UN monitors? We can confirm
:08:53. > :08:57.that our car was hit, our UN vehicle was hit with small calibre
:08:57. > :09:01.bullets. Have you any idea who was doing the shooting? No, as a UN
:09:01. > :09:05.mission on the ground, we only report what we see and what we can
:09:05. > :09:09.verify and what we can see with our own eyes. Is it possible for you to
:09:09. > :09:12.do your job, given the terrible difficulties you face? We are
:09:12. > :09:16.actually very, very concerned about the restriction imposed on our
:09:16. > :09:20.movement, this is the first time we have seen it in such a large scale.
:09:20. > :09:27.For this, this impedes our work, our mandate is to monitor, observe
:09:27. > :09:31.and then report. If we can't have access to these place, this sort of
:09:31. > :09:33.stops us from fulfiling our mandate, that is concerning for the UN as a
:09:33. > :09:37.whole. Thank you very much for taking time
:09:37. > :09:41.to talk to us from Damascus. Your welcome.
:09:41. > :09:48.Two Syrians are with me here, Malcolm Tucker, who opposed
:09:48. > :09:53.President Assad's ray -- My guests are here with me now.
:09:53. > :09:57.Are you convinced, as Ban Ki-Moon is, that the Assad Government is
:09:57. > :10:03.behind these killings? The Assad Government is in charge of the
:10:03. > :10:10.country, they are in responsibility for the killings, even if they are
:10:10. > :10:14.not behind it. All the information tells us so far is that the Assad
:10:14. > :10:18.forces were nearby, and they allowed the shabiha to enter and
:10:18. > :10:21.commit the crimes. That is the problem for those in favour of the
:10:21. > :10:26.regime, either the regime is carrying out the killings or has
:10:26. > :10:32.lost control of the country, in which case it is finished? I have
:10:32. > :10:36.to disagree with the other guest. The investigation is still under
:10:36. > :10:40.way. So you can't. The point is they are not in control of the
:10:40. > :10:42.country, they could have stopped it, they could have stopped the
:10:42. > :10:46.killing? The Government is trying to gain control. It is not in
:10:46. > :10:52.control of the country? Because of the opposition, it is gaining more
:10:52. > :10:55.weapons, more funding. They are getting more unconventional weapons.
:10:55. > :10:59.It is very hard for the Government. They are killing themselves, I
:10:59. > :11:04.simply don't follow your argument, neither do most of the viewers. The
:11:05. > :11:11.Assad Government is not in control of your country? It is not keeping
:11:11. > :11:16.it together? They are trying. it is not working? They are trying
:11:16. > :11:23.to work, they are trying to gain control, it is trying to establish
:11:23. > :11:28.law and order. Because the Government is still the only
:11:28. > :11:34.official speaker for the ...Do feel your country is turning into
:11:34. > :11:38.Lebanon? It is, and I blame the regime for it. First and foremost.
:11:38. > :11:43.In certain parts of Syria it is already like Lebanon. To stop this,
:11:43. > :11:48.of course the regime needs to go. But we need the regime to go in the
:11:48. > :11:52.safest way possible for Siria. We need the international community to
:11:52. > :11:57.-- Syria. We need the international community to behave in a more
:11:57. > :12:02.responsible way. Don't settle their old scores in Syria, don't turn it
:12:02. > :12:07.into an arena for international conflict, it is Russia versus Iran,
:12:07. > :12:10.America versus Russia. We want to solve the Syrian crisis, not just
:12:10. > :12:14.manage it. They are behaving in a way of how to manage the crisis,
:12:14. > :12:17.not how to solve it. Did you accept that the Annan Plan is
:12:17. > :12:21.fundamentally dead, it begins with a ceasefire, and there isn't a
:12:22. > :12:28.ceasefire, it can't move on, it can't go anywhere? It is not dead,
:12:28. > :12:33.but we need Annan nan Plus. It is very weak. First of all we need an
:12:33. > :12:38.entire team of mediators, not just one person. We need a tough mandate
:12:38. > :12:43.and higher number of monitor, and a stronger international consensus,
:12:43. > :12:47.we didn't need the nations to fight over Syria. There isn't a
:12:47. > :12:50.consensus? Absolutely not. Some countries say they support the
:12:50. > :12:55.Annan Plan, and then they arm certain parts of the opposition,
:12:55. > :13:01.that doesn't work. Beyond killing Syrians, has the Assad Government
:13:01. > :13:11.got any other plans for bringing stability? First of all, let's gain
:13:11. > :13:12.
:13:12. > :13:15.control, or let's have a ceasefire first. The elections have started.
:13:15. > :13:20.We want stability back to our country. That was my original point,
:13:20. > :13:24.which is, you want stability in your country, the Assad regime is
:13:24. > :13:28.unable to guarantee stability, it is falling apart? Yeah, but because
:13:28. > :13:32.of the international pressure, because of the international
:13:32. > :13:36.pressure. That's the main point. it is only foreigners that are
:13:37. > :13:41.causing the problems in Syria? not saying only foreigners. Of
:13:41. > :13:45.course not. I'm not saying the Government is an angel, no it is
:13:45. > :13:48.not. They have lost all legitimacy, according to Ban Ki-Moon? No they
:13:48. > :13:54.haven't. That is according to the United Nations? No they haven't
:13:54. > :14:00.lost the back-up of the majority of the Syrian people. They didn't lose
:14:00. > :14:05.legitimacy, they never had it to start with. I'm sorry.
:14:05. > :14:09.legitimacy they never had popular legitimacy. I disagree with that.
:14:09. > :14:13.Any solution has to involve the Syrians, agree there has to be a
:14:13. > :14:18.Contact Group, but Syrians should be in the solution. They should
:14:18. > :14:22.talk to all parties, they should involve every part of Syria not
:14:23. > :14:26.just certain parts of the opposition. You agree the
:14:26. > :14:32.opposition is divided amongst yourselves? Parts of the country
:14:32. > :14:35.where the country opposition is not divided, the regime itself is not
:14:35. > :14:38.united, but that is not the point, we need the international community
:14:38. > :14:44.to rally around one solution, and you will see the Syrians rallying
:14:44. > :14:48.behind it. Talk to all groups, talk to the armed groups but also the
:14:48. > :14:52.Syrians, the rational voices coming from inside Syria as well.
:14:52. > :14:55.Now the American armed robber, Willie Sutton, was once asked why
:14:55. > :14:58.he robbed banks, he replied that that is where the money is. Berlin
:14:58. > :15:03.is clearly where the money is in the eurozone. One way or another,
:15:03. > :15:08.every European leader, including today, David Cameron, is full of
:15:08. > :15:11.ideas for how Angela Merkel should spend it. We report on whether the
:15:11. > :15:20.Prime Minister has signed up to a two-speed Europe, with Britain in
:15:20. > :15:23.the slow lane, or perhaps on the hard shoulder.
:15:23. > :15:30.Tomorrow sees the start of the quadrennial gathering of Europe's
:15:30. > :15:37.elite. And like recent EU summits, there will be plenty of
:15:37. > :15:41.misopportunities, offsides, and maybe some fancy foot work. England,
:15:41. > :15:50.not seen by many as favourites, watches with itchy feet from the
:15:50. > :15:54.sidelines. But who will win eurozone 2012. David Cameron was in
:15:54. > :16:03.Berlin today with Angela Merkel, hoping to fill the platform shoes,
:16:03. > :16:09.vacated when Merkozy ceased to be last week, anyone for CaMerkel.
:16:09. > :16:12.Judging from the Town Hall chat with students, it was all about
:16:13. > :16:17.accentuating the positives between two strong leaders. We are strong
:16:17. > :16:22.allies and strong supporters together, with the positive steps
:16:22. > :16:26.that we live within our means, free trade and enterprise, and the
:16:26. > :16:30.structural reform needed to make Europe grow again. For her part,
:16:30. > :16:35.Angela Merkel was even playing down the gulf that might result from a
:16:35. > :16:38.two-speed EU, which might arise if she pursues with her idea of more,
:16:38. > :16:41.rather than less Europe. TRANSLATION: We have always had
:16:41. > :16:45.different forms of integration in Europe. So this is not a new
:16:45. > :16:48.development for us. And the decision taken on the part of some
:16:48. > :16:51.countries, like Great Britain, and Denmark, who made their position
:16:51. > :16:55.clear at the beginning when we introduced the common currency,
:16:55. > :16:59.they made it clear they would not join. It became obvious, it has
:16:59. > :17:03.been obvious that we can co-exist quite well and work together quite
:17:03. > :17:07.well. If we don't take each and every step at the same time and all
:17:07. > :17:10.of us together. Since using his veto in last December's summit,
:17:10. > :17:15.does anyone listen to David Cameron in Europe any more. Cameron has
:17:15. > :17:20.become a little bit of a nuisance for eurozone leaders, he might be
:17:20. > :17:27.told very clearly to shut up, because his remarks may be less
:17:27. > :17:30.helpful than they should be. The eurozone may want to sort out their
:17:30. > :17:34.problems without the constant advice from parties that don't want
:17:34. > :17:38.to get involved any way. Angela Merkel, seen meeting German players
:17:38. > :17:42.ahead of their opening match at the weekend, was also softening her
:17:42. > :17:46.stance on solutions for the eurozone crisis. She would,
:17:46. > :17:50.afterall, go along with banking union, and even eurobonds, but only
:17:50. > :17:55.if Europe achieved full political union, no less.
:17:55. > :18:01.TRANSLATION: We need more Europe, not just the common currency, but
:18:01. > :18:04.we also need more common bugetry policies. We need a political union.
:18:04. > :18:08.Step-by-step we need to hand over power to Europe. Because the
:18:08. > :18:12.financial services sector matters so much to the UK economy, Britain
:18:12. > :18:15.has been one of the main winners are from the single market, that
:18:15. > :18:18.guarantees the free movement of people and money across European
:18:18. > :18:23.border, if there was a two-speed Europe, and Britain remained in the
:18:23. > :18:26.single market, of course, then the City of London's reputation as a
:18:26. > :18:31.financial hub could be retained and even enhanced. The problem arises
:18:31. > :18:36.after a banking union or fiscal union, when Berlin and Paris give
:18:36. > :18:39.their banks an ultimatum, which basically says stay in Britain and
:18:39. > :18:44.be dependant on the Treasury here if things go wrong, or pack your
:18:44. > :18:48.bags and bring them all back to Germany and France. What would a
:18:48. > :18:52.two or three-speed Europe look like, who would be in which camp. The
:18:52. > :18:58.inner core would be all the economically robust countries, like
:18:58. > :19:01.Germany, Finland and Austria, but may include Estonia and Slovenia.
:19:01. > :19:07.Those with deep economic difficulties like Ireland, Italy,
:19:07. > :19:09.Spain, Greece and Portugal, what like to join the inner core, but
:19:09. > :19:14.the austerity required may be difficult. Then there is those
:19:14. > :19:18.countries within the EU who aspire to join the euro, Poland, Hungary
:19:18. > :19:21.and Romania, it is unclear at this stage whether they would even want
:19:21. > :19:25.to join the fast-track club, let alone be allowed to do so. That
:19:25. > :19:29.leaves the outer core of countries, including Britain, Sweden and
:19:29. > :19:34.Denmark, who may wish to be part of the EU single market, but little
:19:34. > :19:40.else. They might decide to align themselves much closer to non-E
:19:40. > :19:44.United Nations, like Europe. future of Europe has to be more
:19:44. > :19:48.integrated, banking union, an economic union, or eurobonds,
:19:48. > :19:51.collective borough. All the changes will require new treaties. New
:19:52. > :19:57.treaties will require a British signature, so the institution of
:19:57. > :20:03.the EU, like the commission, can manage the new systems. And they
:20:03. > :20:08.are borrowed that Mr Cameron will do what he did before, block the EU
:20:08. > :20:12.treaty, and they will have to work outside the framework of the EU
:20:12. > :20:17.bookies think the eventual winners of Euro 2012 will be either Spain
:20:17. > :20:21.or Italy. Greece is certainly not tipped. Their politicians were busy
:20:21. > :20:25.attacking each other on TV, ahead of next week's second general
:20:25. > :20:35.election. That could decide the economic fate of an entire
:20:35. > :20:35.
:20:36. > :20:42.continent. Is a multi-speed Europe inevitable, is it a good idea for
:20:42. > :20:45.Britain. The my guests are here. Was this actually quite a big day,
:20:45. > :20:49.here was the Prime Minister of our country, and the Chancellor of
:20:49. > :20:53.Germany, broadly agreeing that we have to have a multi-speed Europe?
:20:53. > :20:59.There is lots of agreement, including that you have to deal
:20:59. > :21:03.with your deficit, reform your economy, whilst at the same time,
:21:03. > :21:07.try to get growth into the European economies on the wider scale. For
:21:07. > :21:11.example, delivering on the single market in the digital abreen that,
:21:11. > :21:14.in services and so -- arena, and in services and so on. We have done
:21:14. > :21:17.all that before, this was a big day in terms of moving at different
:21:17. > :21:23.speeds towards European integration, or not, perhaps, in the case of
:21:24. > :21:28.Britain? This rown't maic idea that Europe -- romantic idea that Europe
:21:28. > :21:32.moves at one speed, as it has unravelled it is a multi-speed
:21:32. > :21:35.Europe, it is a patchwork of problems at the moment. We are on
:21:35. > :21:40.the outside whatever speed you are talking about, from the graphic we
:21:40. > :21:42.saw, it is clear we will not be in the decision-making core? Most of
:21:42. > :21:46.the British public would be thankful we are outside the
:21:46. > :21:50.eurozone. He has a point there, most of the British public would be
:21:50. > :21:54.thankful for it. It is a reality, we have a multi-speed Europe right
:21:54. > :21:58.now? We have a multi-speed Europe, the question is do we have a two-
:21:58. > :22:03.tier Europe, and can Britain actually have some say over the
:22:03. > :22:07.future of its economy. Because we might not be in the euro, I don't
:22:07. > :22:14.think we should be, immediately. But eight out of ten of our top
:22:14. > :22:18.trading partners are in the euro, the City of London depends totally
:22:18. > :22:22.on the euro, that is why George Osborne and David Cameron have
:22:22. > :22:26.overcome their Euro-scepticism and are promoting integration. Isn't
:22:26. > :22:29.the argument the exact opposite of what you are making, if we were in
:22:29. > :22:33.the euro, we would have less say on the economy, it would all be run
:22:33. > :22:36.from Berlin any way? There is a real-life example of what will
:22:36. > :22:41.happen if we carry on down the policy we are adopting at the
:22:41. > :22:45.moment, which is Norway. Which benefits a huge amount from the EU,
:22:45. > :22:54.it is their biggest single market, but they have absolutely no say
:22:54. > :22:59.over any of the regulations that get made, they don't get a seat at
:22:59. > :23:01.the table and have no say. Britain haven't joined every project, there
:23:02. > :23:04.was one principle that we should get a seat at the table and shape
:23:04. > :23:09.the future of the European Union. What is happening here is we are
:23:09. > :23:11.not being pushed out, we are marginalising ourselves. We are
:23:12. > :23:16.marginalising ourselves, and we will be another nor I wa, perhaps
:23:16. > :23:19.without the oil? The difference is -- Norway, perhaps without the oil?
:23:19. > :23:22.The difference is we are part of the single market and will continue
:23:22. > :23:25.to protect that. David Cameron using the veto is exactly that.
:23:25. > :23:29.Nobody cares about the veto? reason he's in Germany, I would
:23:29. > :23:35.argue, is we are a very important country, if there is going to be
:23:35. > :23:38.closer political, and by the way, I would go further, emotional union.
:23:38. > :23:41.The German people have to emotionally feel they can support
:23:41. > :23:45.Greece or other countries that are going through the pain they are
:23:46. > :23:50.going through. Part of the reason we have a seat at the table is
:23:50. > :23:57.because we can block those closer political unions coming together.
:23:57. > :24:00.Unless we are offered protections. It is an entirely negative power?
:24:00. > :24:04.We are in a pretty strong position, because we are a pretty powerful
:24:04. > :24:07.economy. We are not a nor I wa, we are a strong economy. That is fair
:24:07. > :24:12.point, we are much more like the German economy than any other
:24:12. > :24:16.economy in Europe? We have a lot in common with the Germans, we support
:24:16. > :24:18.liberalising open markets, we want the same as many countries within
:24:18. > :24:24.the European Union. And yet, we are forcing ourselves into a position
:24:24. > :24:26.where we are in a minority and not shaping things. Because of an
:24:26. > :24:30.ideolgical Euro-scepticism. Look at what the other countries that are
:24:30. > :24:34.not in the euro are doing, look at Sweden, Poland, countries that
:24:34. > :24:38.agree with us. They are not joining the euro, but they want to be part
:24:38. > :24:41.of everything else. We are actually sitting on the outside. I'm only
:24:41. > :24:46.smiling because that argument that we will be left behind, in some way,
:24:46. > :24:50.has been going on for deck kaisd. The Europhiles have been re--
:24:50. > :24:54.decades, the Europhiles have been resoundly defeated on that issue.
:24:54. > :24:58.Is it going to be, as George Osborne is hinting, an in-out
:24:58. > :25:02.referendum on Europe, would that be a good thing? If you make
:25:02. > :25:06.Chancellor Merkel at her word, that you need more not less Europe, with
:25:06. > :25:10.politic kal and emotional Europe, there will have to be new treaties
:25:10. > :25:15.-- political and emotional Europe, there will be new treaties. It
:25:15. > :25:19.wasth this was a historical act, the Sovereignty Act, as I call it,
:25:19. > :25:25.where there is an automatically referendum. You are not only
:25:25. > :25:29.relaxed, you want that and bring it on? We need closer Europe
:25:29. > :25:34.integration, more Europe not less Europe, we have to bring it to the
:25:34. > :25:37.people because we have an act in place. You would prefer that, an
:25:37. > :25:41.in-out referendum? If we have that I will campaign for a yes vote,
:25:41. > :25:44.because it is massively in Britain's interest to be part of
:25:44. > :25:48.the European Union. I don't see why we are distracting people with
:25:48. > :25:51.these kinds of things, when the future of the euro is at stake. The
:25:51. > :25:56.big debate everywhere else is actually about realishs use, about
:25:56. > :26:01.how you shape the future of our continent -- real issues, about how
:26:01. > :26:04.he you shape the future of your continent. This is clearly an
:26:04. > :26:07.urgent matter about saving the euro, would you see it before the end of
:26:07. > :26:11.the parliament? We have to wait for the dust to settle. There is so
:26:11. > :26:16.many problems and pain, whether it is Spain with the bank problems,
:26:16. > :26:20.that will affect the sovereign, or visa verse in Portugal, which is a
:26:20. > :26:26.sovereign problem that affected the banks. In this parliament a
:26:26. > :26:30.referendum wouldn't be kwhrond the bounds of pos -- beyond the bounds
:26:30. > :26:35.of possibility? We will have to see what the bigger and deeper
:26:35. > :26:38.political union will be. We have already passed an act that
:26:38. > :26:42.automatically requires the British public to have their say.
:26:42. > :26:45.Parents who force their children to marry will face going to jail under
:26:45. > :26:48.new laws expected to be announced by the Home Secretary, Theresa May,
:26:48. > :26:51.tomorrow. The Home Office consultation which closed at the
:26:51. > :26:55.end of March, was launched at the request of David Cameron. Last year
:26:55. > :27:05.the Prime Minister said forced marriage was little more than
:27:05. > :27:17.
:27:17. > :27:22.Anwar makes from the British High Commission in Pakistan's capital,
:27:22. > :27:26.Islamabad, raising awareness of forced marriage. It tells the
:27:26. > :27:30.fictional story of Sara, a bright schoolgirl sent to Pakistan, where
:27:31. > :27:35.she's forced to marry a cousin, 15 years her senior, there she is ayes
:27:35. > :27:44.buesed and left to do the house -- abused and left to do the household
:27:44. > :27:49.chores. The Home Office estimates that between 5,000-8,000 forced
:27:49. > :27:54.marriages take place every year. But in 2011, only some 1500 cases
:27:54. > :27:58.were reported to the Government's Forced Marriage Unit. The majority
:27:58. > :28:03.of victims are of south Asian origin, with children as young as
:28:03. > :28:10.five, known to be coerced into marriage.
:28:10. > :28:14.We have the chair of the Ashiana Network, a charity that provides
:28:14. > :28:19.refuge for victims of forced marriage,. There is an agreement
:28:19. > :28:23.that there may be a problem here. What do you think of the prospect
:28:23. > :28:27.of criminalising it? I think it is another tool that will help young
:28:27. > :28:31.people protect themselves against being foreed into marriage. Why?
:28:31. > :28:34.think -- forced into marriage? Why, I think it will give them a more
:28:34. > :28:39.clear understanding of what their rights are. At the moment we have
:28:39. > :28:42.the civil legislation, a very positive way, but actually having
:28:42. > :28:47.the weight of the judiciary behind young people, and women, and boys
:28:47. > :28:52.and girls that are forced into marriage, will make it far more
:28:52. > :28:56.powerful. Presumably, if it helps one 14-year-old girl not be forced
:28:56. > :29:01.to do something she doesn't want to do, it is a good thing? We welcome
:29:01. > :29:04.any measure designed to strengthen the armoury against forced marriage.
:29:04. > :29:08.But we have real concerns about whether or not this is actually the
:29:08. > :29:12.most useful measure. The reality is, that it's unnecessary, it is
:29:12. > :29:16.surplus to requirements. Existing criminal offences are more than
:29:17. > :29:22.adequate to deal with the problem. What sort of things? What is forced
:29:22. > :29:26.marriage, it involves assault, rape, kidnap. To date, those have not an
:29:26. > :29:30.actively prosecuted. Those are already on the statute book, we
:29:30. > :29:33.don't need more legislation. Doesn't this all bring it all
:29:33. > :29:37.together, saying you can't do this, you as a parent cannot force
:29:37. > :29:41.somebody to do something they don't want to? It will provide some
:29:41. > :29:45.symbolic value, we are concerned as to what practical measures it will
:29:45. > :29:49.provide, what assistance on a pragmatic level it will provide for
:29:49. > :29:53.victim. It will confuse victim, we are concerned it will drive the
:29:53. > :29:57.issue underground and possibly overseas. Do you think there is an
:29:57. > :30:00.argument there, if you are a very vulnerable teenager, in this
:30:00. > :30:04.position, and you are forced, not just to disobey your parents, but
:30:04. > :30:08.actually to say to the police, look my mum should go to jail, or my
:30:08. > :30:11.father should go to jail, or my uncle, whatever it is, that is
:30:11. > :30:16.pretty difficult to see that? a very difficult thing to do. But
:30:16. > :30:20.what we are talking about is the prevention of abuse. In the case of
:30:20. > :30:28.young people it is child abuse. So, actually, if this legislation does
:30:28. > :30:30.come in, it will prevent the rape, the serial rape, the domestic abuse,
:30:30. > :30:34.the torture. Suicide rates amongst Asian girls is three-times the
:30:34. > :30:37.national average. We need to look at all the consequences of not
:30:37. > :30:41.having this as a criminal offence. We looked at the figures and quoted
:30:41. > :30:44.them today, do you see a lot of this, because the figures seem to
:30:44. > :30:49.be a bit flexible, depending on who you talk to? Nobody really knows
:30:49. > :30:53.the amount of people foreed into marriage. We have a 24/7 helpline,
:30:53. > :30:56.we have numerous calls in from young people every day. We go into
:30:56. > :30:59.schools and deliver assemblies, every school I have visited, there
:30:59. > :31:03.has been at least one person who has come up who has a friend or
:31:03. > :31:07.somebody they know. Every school? Every school we have been in to.
:31:07. > :31:10.What would you do about this, you said that there is an armoury of
:31:10. > :31:14.things available now. Presumably you are not content. If it is as
:31:14. > :31:19.widespread as we have been talking about? The figures, as you say, are
:31:19. > :31:24.flexible. We would question figure of 5,000-8,000 a year, it is
:31:24. > :31:28.certainly a very significant problem, but those figures are
:31:28. > :31:31.conflated with other issues of honour-based violence. We need a
:31:31. > :31:36.proper study into how many cases there are out there. What this
:31:36. > :31:39.criminalisation will do, the creation of a specific criminal
:31:39. > :31:42.offence, will undermine existing civil remedies, they have been in
:31:42. > :31:49.place for the past three-and-a-half years, it has served to protect
:31:49. > :31:52.about 400 victims. It provides very fast and effective remedy. Would
:31:52. > :31:57.you just sit back and say there is a prob embl, but it is fine. For
:31:57. > :32:02.instance -- problem, but it is fine. First Minister, we make it an --
:32:02. > :32:08.for instance, we make it an offence to speed on the motorway, society
:32:08. > :32:14.doesn't like it and we shouldn't do it, criminalising it is symbolic?
:32:14. > :32:19.have axed that already. We are concerned it -- acknowledged that
:32:19. > :32:23.already, we are concerned it will drive it underground or overseas.
:32:23. > :32:26.We don't have a specific offence of domestic violence, that doesn't
:32:27. > :32:31.stop us effectively prosecuting cases of domestic violence. The
:32:31. > :32:35.concern we also have, and the noises are coming from Government
:32:35. > :32:40.on this already, as anticipated, that there may be cuts to Legal Aid.
:32:40. > :32:45.And so where it is deemed to be sufficient protection, which virtue
:32:45. > :32:50.of criminal bail conditions, then there will be no Legal Aid
:32:50. > :32:54.available for the civil remedy. would hope the remedies already
:32:54. > :32:58.there will remain. We are told there is additional funding
:32:58. > :33:02.available to help with education in schools, we will run a big
:33:02. > :33:05.programme. We are hoping that will make a huge difference. It won't
:33:05. > :33:09.undermine things? One would hope the Government would see what is
:33:09. > :33:13.already there, and the Legal Aid we would hope would be in existence.
:33:13. > :33:17.If there is money available in these times of austerity, it should
:33:17. > :33:21.be provided to support those essential lifelines, which are the
:33:21. > :33:24.support organisations for these victims. As you know, that is a big
:33:24. > :33:28.if, in these times. The practice of giving birth at
:33:28. > :33:32.home, is as old as human history. In recent years it has enjoyed
:33:32. > :33:37.renewed popularity here in Britain, and some other parts of the world.
:33:37. > :33:42.In Eastern Europe it is not so easy. In fact, it is actively discouraged
:33:42. > :33:47.by the medical establishment and authorities. In Hungary until
:33:47. > :33:50.recently, home birth was almost illegally. Agnes Gereb, an
:33:50. > :33:54.independent midwife, was taking huge risks attending women at home.
:33:54. > :34:02.She spent time in prison and is under house arrest.
:34:02. > :34:12.Nick Thorpe, a long time friend of Agnes, has sent this personal view
:34:12. > :34:23.
:34:23. > :34:29.A film about the birth of my second son, Matthew. He, like all my five
:34:29. > :34:32.sons of born here in our flat in Budapest. Each birth was such a
:34:32. > :34:38.good, safe, positive experience, that is why we have so many
:34:38. > :34:48.children. That was very much thanks to the work of one brave pioneering
:34:48. > :34:52.midwife, Agnes Gereb. Like many other couples, who have given birth
:34:52. > :34:57.with her, we regard her as something like the second mother to
:34:57. > :35:07.our children. But, 15 years on from Matthew's birth, the hands that
:35:07. > :35:07.
:35:07. > :35:11.delivered our baby are tied. She's been ostracised from the medical
:35:11. > :35:19.profession, sentenced to two years in prison, and banned from doing
:35:19. > :35:25.the work she loves. When Agnes Gereb appeared in the courtroom
:35:25. > :35:29.behind me, the judge in justifying her sentence said this was a woman
:35:29. > :35:34.that Hungarian society needs to be protected from. So, what did she do
:35:34. > :35:41.wrong? And how will her fate effect the future of birth in Eastern
:35:41. > :35:46.Europe? Agnes Gereb has been under house arrest for the past 16 months,
:35:46. > :35:50.awaiting trial on further charges. She has successfully delivered over
:35:50. > :35:54.3,000 babies. But whenever a home birth ended up in hospital, an
:35:54. > :36:04.investigation was launched. And when tragedy struck in September
:36:04. > :36:07.
:36:07. > :36:12.2007, and a baby died in childbirth, she was found guilty of negligence.
:36:12. > :36:17.TRANSLATION: I did not commit malpractice, but I could have been
:36:17. > :36:20.much more skillful. I wish so much I had been better. Until now,
:36:20. > :36:24.whenever that particular complication occurs in my practice,
:36:24. > :36:29.I could solve it, that time I failed. It is a huge trauma for me,
:36:29. > :36:35.as well as the little girl's family. I will always think of them on the
:36:35. > :36:41.15th of September. Why were you sentenced then, if you made no
:36:41. > :36:44.mistakes? TRANSLATION: Their approach to me was not benevolent
:36:44. > :36:49.from the start. The Hungarian medical experts who gave evidence
:36:49. > :36:54.at the trial looked at what happened exclusively from the
:36:54. > :36:57.perspective of hospital practice. They tried to transplant an
:36:57. > :37:01.obstetricians' behaviour in the ward, on to a midwife at a home
:37:01. > :37:08.birth. You can't do that, these are two completely different
:37:08. > :37:12.professions. More than 99% of Hungarian babies are born in
:37:12. > :37:16.hospitals. Simply assisting at a home birth could result in
:37:16. > :37:22.prosecution, until last year. And the leading body of the profession
:37:22. > :37:25.remains totally opposed to it. Hungarian doctors are proud of low
:37:25. > :37:29.neo-natal death statistic, comparable to those in western
:37:29. > :37:36.Europe. I personally think that to deliver a baby at a hospital is
:37:36. > :37:40.much safer for the baby and even for the mother. 90% of deliveries
:37:40. > :37:44.go on without any complication, but if there is any complication, if
:37:44. > :37:48.there is a serious comply kaiing, then it is much safer if --
:37:48. > :37:52.complication, then it is much safer if you are in a hospital. The all
:37:52. > :37:57.important thing for us, as obsstrigss in hundred guarantee, is
:37:57. > :38:00.the safety of the baby or the mother. Neither Dr Acs, or any
:38:00. > :38:05.members of the Board of Obstetricians, would be drawn on
:38:05. > :38:08.the case of their former colleague, Agnes Gereb. She was once a part of
:38:08. > :38:13.this world, an obstetrician in a top university clinic, before
:38:13. > :38:19.quitting to set up as an independent midwife, attending to
:38:19. > :38:26.mothers and delivering babies at home. TRANSLATION: I can best
:38:26. > :38:29.explain my switch from being a doctor to a midwife, with two words,
:38:30. > :38:34."equality", and "presence". To be really there for the woman and
:38:34. > :38:40.really share in her joy. When a woman thanks me after her birth for
:38:40. > :38:43.my help, I always want to say, no, thank you, for letting me be here
:38:43. > :38:52.with you. There is something intimate and so universal, which a
:38:52. > :38:56.midwife shares with a mother and her baby.
:38:56. > :39:02.Joli Szaz gave birth to Eliza two years ago, at home, etended by
:39:02. > :39:08.Agnes Gereb. The baby had a strepkok cuss infection, which can
:39:08. > :39:12.cause -- strepkok cuss infection, which can cause brain-damage or
:39:12. > :39:16.death, an ambulance was called, they sued Agnes Gereb for
:39:16. > :39:22.negligence, not the parents. The baby and her parents are fine.
:39:22. > :39:26.TRANSLATION: The main thing for me was not the place of birth for my
:39:26. > :39:30.children, but I was treated as an adult throughout the pregnancy and
:39:30. > :39:34.birth, that I was intelligent enough to choose the birth for my
:39:34. > :39:44.child. I received that from Agnes Gereb. Everywhere else they gave
:39:44. > :39:51.the impression that they wanted to save the baby from me.
:39:51. > :39:59.Hungary is deeply divided over Agnes Gereb. Many share my view,
:39:59. > :40:07.that this is one woman's battle for a gentler philosophy and practice
:40:07. > :40:10.of birth care. Others regard her as a dangerous and reckless witch. The
:40:10. > :40:17.Government has already taken one important step, last year they put
:40:17. > :40:22.home birth on a legal footing for the first time. Now the President
:40:22. > :40:28.is considering whether to absolve its leading practicer of the crimes
:40:28. > :40:33.for which she was convicted, and grant Agnes clemency. Last year
:40:33. > :40:38.your Government regulated home birth for the first time in Hungary.
:40:38. > :40:44.Would it not be strange to first allow something and then send to
:40:45. > :40:49.prison the best known practitioner? TRANSLATION: We have to make a
:40:49. > :40:52.strict division here between what a court of law decided and what the
:40:52. > :40:59.Government did. As a Government we recognise that there was a legal
:40:59. > :41:03.vacuum, so we regulated it. While that obviously has no retrospective
:41:03. > :41:06.effect on the criminal proceedings, it is true, if Agnes Gereb had not
:41:06. > :41:11.drawn public attention, first the possibility of fathers being
:41:11. > :41:18.present at birth, and now to out of hospital births, then our
:41:18. > :41:22.regulation might not have been born. In hospitals, though, opposition to
:41:22. > :41:27.home birth is deep-rooted. Hungarian parents expect to pay at
:41:27. > :41:33.least a month's wages to an obstetrician, in gratitude, for the
:41:33. > :41:40.safe birth of their child. Midwives are sidelined, that gives a strong
:41:40. > :41:43.financial incentive to doctors to maintain the status quo.
:41:43. > :41:47.TRANSLATION: Statistics show the public regard the healthcare system
:41:47. > :41:51.as the most corrupt. You can't change it overnight. One cause is
:41:51. > :41:59.that doctors' wages are so low, and the health budget is simply not
:41:59. > :42:04.capable of doubling or tripling their wages. Four times a day the
:42:04. > :42:09.police check on Agnes. After 32 years attending births, half that
:42:09. > :42:14.time in hospital, half at home births, it has been a
:42:14. > :42:18.claustrophobic, deeply frustrating experience, to be couped up here,
:42:18. > :42:28.not even allowed out in the yard. Why are you fighting, and what are
:42:28. > :42:32.you fighting for? TRANSLATION: I'm fighting for anything, then I'm
:42:32. > :42:35.fighting for peace. If children are born in an undisturbed way, they
:42:35. > :42:39.will be more peaceful. What do I want to achieve, that everyone be
:42:40. > :42:44.allowed to do what they are good at. I think I'm good at attending home
:42:44. > :42:54.births. And I want home births to be available for everyone who wants
:42:54. > :42:54.
:42:54. > :42:59.Without Agnes, the first children we had would almost certainly have
:42:59. > :43:06.been by Caesarean, and then we certainly would not have had five.
:43:06. > :43:11.So I can say, without exaggeration, that Jack and Casper, owe their
:43:12. > :43:14.lives to Agnes Gereb. For more families, not just here in Hungary,
:43:14. > :43:18.but across Eastern Europe, to get the kind of support during birth,
:43:18. > :43:22.that we had, would mean something akin to a revolution, but are the
:43:22. > :43:30.authorities willing to shake up the maternity wards, and take on the
:43:30. > :43:36.medical profession? That decision lies in the hands of President
:43:36. > :43:40.Janos Ader, any day now, he will have to decide whether to grant
:43:40. > :43:43.Agnes Gereb clemency. The present Hungarian Government has a poor
:43:43. > :43:47.image internationally, freeing her would look good for its human
:43:48. > :43:53.rights record. But it would be a blow to the doctors and the justice
:43:53. > :43:57.system, which found her guilty. Let's have a look at the front
:43:57. > :44:07.pages tomorrow morning. The Guardian has the Syrian
:44:07. > :44:07.
:44:07. > :45:02.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 54 seconds