:00:12. > :00:18.They may have saved some of the Spanish banks for the time being,
:00:18. > :00:23.but the euro is still far from safe. It will take 100 billion euros to
:00:23. > :00:27.save the Spanish banking system. What's left of it.
:00:27. > :00:32.How much longer can the European elite keep the whole thing afloat?
:00:32. > :00:40.Are some nations being asked to accept more austerity than others?
:00:40. > :00:45.The media magnate under oath. said, well, your company has made,
:00:45. > :00:48.declared war on my Government. the former Prime Minister under
:00:48. > :00:51.oath. This conversation never took place.
:00:51. > :00:56.We will ask who is the one with the memory problem?
:00:57. > :01:01.Then there is this. No half measure about Glasgow
:01:01. > :01:07.housing, everything's looking up. They were built as the solution to
:01:07. > :01:15.Glasgow's housing crisis and some people grew rather fond of them.
:01:15. > :01:24.# I'm a scraper # I'm a skyscraper way
:01:24. > :01:28.# I live on the 15th floor. Why, less than half a century later is
:01:28. > :01:31.this happening to them? First thing today, markets all over
:01:31. > :01:34.the world seemed to bounce a bit under the impression that the
:01:34. > :01:38.latest crisis in the eurozone might have been resolved. They snapped
:01:38. > :01:43.out of it as the day wore on, though. Meanwhile, the news that
:01:43. > :01:46.Spain is getting all the relief of a bail out, without any of the pain
:01:46. > :01:50.of austerity measure, hasn't gone down well with countries like
:01:50. > :01:55.Greece or Ireland, wir which were told you couldn't have one -- which
:01:55. > :02:01.were told you couldn't have one without the other. The eurozone
:02:01. > :02:09.mess is alive and well. Let's join our Economics Editor on his tour of
:02:09. > :02:13.ruined economies, tonight he's in Madrid.
:02:14. > :02:18.Resist, we are the fourth power of the eurozone, we are not Uganda.
:02:18. > :02:22.That is what the Finance Minister was texted, as they struggled over
:02:22. > :02:28.the terms of the bail out. They said they were powerful and if they
:02:28. > :02:37.don't give in, the whole thing will go down. The result, a 100 billion
:02:37. > :02:42.bail out, no conditions, and crisis over, a victory, blames Mr Rajoy.
:02:42. > :02:48.The markets reacted with no euphoria, the euro fell against the
:02:48. > :02:51.dollar, Spain's cost of borrowing rose. Some think "victory" is not
:02:51. > :02:54.the right word. There is a misnaming on the part of the
:02:54. > :02:58.Government. They have not called it a rescue but called it a credit
:02:58. > :03:02.line. We are not fully aware of what it entails. Clearly there is
:03:02. > :03:09.going to be some loss of sovereignty, of ability to make our
:03:09. > :03:17.own decisions. That is what happens when a country sin capable of
:03:17. > :03:21.bailing out its own banks. Under the seal -- deal, Europe will pump
:03:21. > :03:25.100 billion euro noose the banks through the bank bail out fund,
:03:25. > :03:30.some will be nationalised and some merged. The money will count as
:03:30. > :03:38.national debt for Spain, which is already rising steeply, and set to
:03:38. > :03:43.hit 90% of GDP this year. It is a clear thing that the euro area is
:03:43. > :03:50.willing and able to tackle the remaining challenges. In this
:03:50. > :03:56.context, Europe is standing by Spain and supporting Spain in order
:03:56. > :03:59.to restructure the banking sector. On the streets of Madrid today, to
:03:59. > :04:04.some it did not feel like a victory. These workers protesting against
:04:04. > :04:07.cuts in wages, and pensions. The absence of strict austerity
:04:07. > :04:15.conditions came only because Spain is already implementing tough and
:04:15. > :04:19.rapid cuts like these. TRANSLATION: We're civil servants,
:04:19. > :04:21.who work in the courts. A rescue pack aing was requested, but only
:04:21. > :04:25.for the banks -- package was requested, but only for the banks.
:04:25. > :04:28.They keep cutting our pay and increasing our hours.
:04:28. > :04:33.Banks have done nothing for this country, and now they are being
:04:33. > :04:36.rescued. I would like to retire with 14 million euros, the problem
:04:36. > :04:41.for Rajoy is he says the bail out is for Spain, but no-one believes.
:04:41. > :04:46.That The Spanish opposition party was
:04:46. > :04:52.doubtful this would be the last bail out Mr Rajoy negotiates.
:04:52. > :04:55.needs to comply with the fiscal target, that means cutting 2.5%
:04:55. > :04:59.from here to the end of the year. That is something that hasn't
:04:59. > :05:03.happened in a structural deficit in any country in the EOCD in the last
:05:03. > :05:07.20 years. It is very difficult. Even more so when the economy is
:05:07. > :05:10.depressed. There is no economic activity. If you don't have
:05:10. > :05:18.revenues you need expenditure, one after another. First, of course,
:05:18. > :05:22.tough raise VAT, then there is going to be, well -- you have to
:05:22. > :05:27.raise VAT, and then there will be cuts in unemployment and pensions
:05:27. > :05:33.if that is not enough. At the centre of the problems, Spain's
:05:33. > :05:40.local savings banks, the cajas, they lent too much in the boom, and
:05:40. > :05:46.went on lending to show the appearance of prosperity. The
:05:46. > :05:51.management hit the scale of the losses in cajas Madrid, before
:05:51. > :05:55.pleading for a 21 billion rescue deal last month. So anyone with a
:05:55. > :05:58.stick in the Spanish banking system, this soon will not feel very much
:05:58. > :06:02.like a victory. Many branches like this one will close, many workers
:06:02. > :06:07.will be sacked. Many shareholders will be penalised, and a lot of
:06:07. > :06:13.savers actually bought shares. Plus, I understand, plil on the stable is
:06:13. > :06:16.the option of penal -- still on the able is the option of penalising
:06:17. > :06:20.the banks through what is called a bail-in. The economy is shrinking,
:06:20. > :06:25.one in four adults has no job. The fear remains that global investor
:06:25. > :06:34.also pull their money out of Spain, if the strategic problem of the
:06:34. > :06:39.eurozone remains unsolved. Clearly the current eurodesign is
:06:39. > :06:44.not sustainable. We need euro 2.0 we need a guiding light to say what
:06:44. > :06:49.it will look like in the next two years. We are in for major reforms.
:06:49. > :06:55.Banking union is mandatory and urgent we. Need to start making
:06:55. > :06:58.some -- urgent. We need to make headway in fiscal union and
:06:58. > :07:03.federation, without that the euro is doomed. This was bail out like
:07:03. > :07:06.no other. The Finns and the Dutch and the Germans demanded tough
:07:07. > :07:11.conditions, more Austerty. But the rest of Europe said, -- austerity,
:07:11. > :07:21.but the rest of Europe said enough austerity. Don't ring the bells too
:07:21. > :07:23.
:07:23. > :07:30.loud, but it might work. This strange event is the first time
:07:30. > :07:37.Europe has bailed its debts. It has doubt Spain time and space. We will
:07:37. > :07:41.find out how much when the Greeks vote on Sunday.
:07:42. > :07:46.Paul Mason is still in Madrid. Does this mean the crisis has been
:07:46. > :07:51.avoided? None of you listened to some of the contingency planning
:07:51. > :07:55.that is going on inside the EU. The Reuters news agency today released
:07:55. > :07:59.a leak of what it said was some of those plans. I will give you a list
:07:59. > :08:07.of the things that are being considered. Limits on how much
:08:07. > :08:15.people can withdraw from ATMs, physical patrols at borders to
:08:15. > :08:22.prevent cash flowing over them. The temporary suspension of the shen
:08:22. > :08:27.began agreement. This is the worst -- sheng began agreement. This is
:08:27. > :08:32.the worst case scenario. If this bail out in Spain and whatever
:08:32. > :08:35.happens in Greece does not stablise the situation. I get the sense that
:08:35. > :08:44.something pretty profound has changed within the eurozone, hasn't
:08:45. > :08:49.it? It It has, this battle between Germany trying to impose austerity
:08:49. > :08:54.and rules on the game, and then southern Europe, seen in many parts
:08:54. > :08:59.of the world as victims of the austerity drive. That battle has
:08:59. > :09:03.gone into a little black box, what are the terms of the Spanish bank
:09:03. > :09:07.bail out. The battle is fought about who gets punished and gets
:09:07. > :09:13.money taken away from them. In that battle, one sense is the balance
:09:13. > :09:16.has shifted, President Holiday, alongside Barroso, alongside back
:09:16. > :09:19.room players, people like Peter Mandelson from Britain, still very
:09:19. > :09:26.much central to the whole discussions, they are winning an
:09:26. > :09:31.argument. The argument is, austerity could kill certain
:09:31. > :09:37.countries F it drives them out of the euro, the seismic ness of the
:09:37. > :09:40.event is such that you would have to think of some of the things I
:09:40. > :09:43.listed -- seismicness of the event is such that you would have to
:09:43. > :09:49.think of some of the things I was talking about. What sort of
:09:49. > :09:52.timetable are we talking about? are looking now at next Sunday's
:09:52. > :09:56.Greek election. The polls there stop. It is illegal to do an
:09:56. > :10:01.opinion poll in Greece a certain time before the elections. We don't
:10:01. > :10:05.know how this is played out. It is pretty obvious, from the contacts I
:10:05. > :10:09.have in Greece, that it has strengthened the hand of the left
:10:09. > :10:13.in Greece. Who are saying, if you text each other, as Mr Rajoy did
:10:13. > :10:18.with his economics minister, saying look, we can push a button and
:10:18. > :10:22.destroy the whole thing, people tend to listen to you. We are all
:10:22. > :10:25.waiting to find out what poll that matters, and that is the one on
:10:25. > :10:29.Sunday. If the Greeks vote, and it is entirely possible, 50-50, for
:10:29. > :10:33.them to vote for a left Government. That Government does not want to
:10:33. > :10:37.leave the euro, but it will scrap the austerity plan and then it will
:10:37. > :10:43.be the ball in the court of Mrs Merkel.
:10:43. > :10:48.Thank you. Corbett is righthandman to the
:10:48. > :10:54.President of the European Council, Mitt Romney. He's in Brussels. Can
:10:54. > :11:00.you help us -- Mr Van Rompuy. What is this deal with Spain, is it a
:11:00. > :11:04.bail out or a rescue? It is a loan, from other eurozone countries to
:11:04. > :11:14.help Spain gain time to deal with its banking problem. Where did you
:11:14. > :11:18.find the money? It is from the European financial stablisation
:11:19. > :11:22.fund, which was set up a couple of years ago. It was a tool that
:11:22. > :11:27.didn't exist before this crisis. Now the European Union, or the
:11:27. > :11:30.eurozone, has set up this fund, through which it can lend money to
:11:30. > :11:35.countries that need money to gain time. It is a loan, it is not a
:11:35. > :11:40.gift, it is not grant, it has to be paid back in due course. It gives
:11:40. > :11:44.the countries time to turn the situation around. This money comes
:11:44. > :11:50.from other members of the eurozone? The other members of the eurozone
:11:50. > :11:54.back the fund. They are guarantors for it. It is not that tax-payers
:11:54. > :11:58.in other countries are giving money away, they are guarantors for the
:11:58. > :12:02.loans, loans which will, of course, in due course, have to be paid back.
:12:02. > :12:11.It is possible, presumably, that one of the people backing the loan
:12:11. > :12:16.is Spain herself? Yes, all the eurozone countries contribute to it.
:12:16. > :12:19.So Spain is lending herself money? Just as Britain does with the IMF.
:12:19. > :12:24.Like many countries across the world we contribute to the IMF. It
:12:24. > :12:28.is not unknown, hissor clear, For us to borrow from the I --
:12:28. > :12:31.historically for us to borrow from the IMF. But Spain is one of the
:12:31. > :12:35.countries lending money to Spain? Spain is one of the countries
:12:35. > :12:39.backing the fund, which in this case shrending money back to Spain,
:12:39. > :12:43.as happens -- is lending money back to Spain, as happens in all such
:12:43. > :12:48.cases. Can you help us what with what the Spaniards have to do to
:12:48. > :12:55.justify this loan, do they have to impose austerity measures? Spain
:12:55. > :13:00.has already undertaken a lot of measures to get rid of its deficit.
:13:00. > :13:04.Remember Spain's overall debt levels are not nearly as high as
:13:04. > :13:09.Greece or some other countries. Spain went into this crisis with
:13:09. > :13:12.lower public debt than Germany, even. So it has a certain margin of
:13:12. > :13:16.manoeuvre. The problem here, is with the banking sector in Spain,
:13:16. > :13:22.which, a part of which has gone belly-up. Just as happened a couple
:13:22. > :13:28.of years ago in Ireland. The state has had to bail out the banking
:13:28. > :13:32.sector, to help them also gain time to recapitalise. That is what is
:13:32. > :13:35.happening here. It is a very different case from that of Greece.
:13:35. > :13:42.So the Spanish Government won't be required to cut Government spending
:13:43. > :13:47.in order to justify this loan? Governments are normally required
:13:47. > :13:50.do is cut their deaf sirbgts how they do, that cutting spending --
:13:51. > :13:54.deficit. How they do that is cutting taxes and raising spending.
:13:54. > :13:58.They are sovereign Governments, that is up to them. But Spain,
:13:58. > :14:01.let's not forget, that is already taken measures to bring their
:14:01. > :14:04.deficit level down. Their accumulated debt level over the
:14:04. > :14:08.years much lower than other countries, but their deficit in
:14:08. > :14:15.recent years shot up. And they are gradually bringing that down over
:14:15. > :14:20.the next two or three years, as planned.
:14:20. > :14:24.When they have to repay this money, who gets priority? Those are the
:14:24. > :14:34.details that will now be negotiated as the small print of this deal is
:14:34. > :14:35.
:14:36. > :14:42.put together. You have no views on who gets priority? I haven't looked
:14:42. > :14:45.into that aspect myself. whether the EU ought to get
:14:45. > :14:48.priority over bondholders? That is subject to the negotiations of the
:14:48. > :14:53.small print of the deal. The key thing is the principle of the deal
:14:53. > :14:57.has been agreed. Very quickly the new mechanism is working. The money
:14:57. > :15:01.is there to lend when needed to a country that needs it. To help give
:15:01. > :15:07.them time to turn the corner. The details still need to be looked at.
:15:07. > :15:09.When the Greeks or the Irish or anybody, whose Governments have had
:15:09. > :15:17.to impose austerity measures in order to get money from Europe,
:15:17. > :15:22.when they look and say Why do they not have to do what we have to do,
:15:22. > :15:26.will they be entitled to renegotiate their loans? Each loan
:15:26. > :15:31.is tailored to the particular problem of the country concerned.
:15:31. > :15:34.As I said earlier, in Spain it is not an overall problem of
:15:34. > :15:37.accumulated public debt. It is a problem of their banking sector
:15:37. > :15:42.that needs helping out and bailing out for a certain period of time.
:15:42. > :15:46.It is quite different from some of the other countries that have
:15:46. > :15:50.received loans. You can't come back and renegotiate? In all case, you
:15:50. > :15:54.refer to austerity being imposed by the European Union, supposedly.
:15:54. > :15:58.Imagine for one moment that these loans were not being given to the
:15:58. > :16:01.countries concerned. Then they would be facing far worse austerity,
:16:01. > :16:09.much more difficult to turn the situation around. The loans give
:16:09. > :16:12.them time to put their house in order, or over a longer period of
:16:12. > :16:16.time with less difficulty than there would otherwise be.
:16:16. > :16:20.The same consideration, of course, applies to Spain, doesn't it?
:16:20. > :16:27.course, yes. To anyone. And not just countries within the your Roy
:16:27. > :16:32.zone. You never -- eurozone. You never hear much about the countries
:16:32. > :16:36.outside the eurozone, Romania, Turkey, who have had loans from the
:16:36. > :16:42.IMF. It is not necessarily to do with being in the euro, or a crisis
:16:42. > :16:46.of the euro as such. Some countries in the eurozone and outside, have
:16:46. > :16:51.problems of deficits and debts. They are being helped with loans.
:16:51. > :16:56.Reuters was reporting earlier today that there have been contingency
:16:56. > :17:02.plans drawn up over there. For what will happen if Greece does tumble
:17:02. > :17:08.out of the euro. These apparently include the suspension of the
:17:08. > :17:12.shengian agreement, limits on the amount of money withdrawn from the
:17:12. > :17:18.cash machines and similar emergency measures. Have such measures been
:17:18. > :17:23.drawn up? We are not planning for a Greek exit from the country, that
:17:23. > :17:28.would make a bad situation worse. The question of whether there are
:17:28. > :17:32.certain consingcy scenarios being looked -- contingency scenarios
:17:32. > :17:35.being looked into by different Government, I would imagine there
:17:35. > :17:43.are. That is different from planning for it to happen or hoping
:17:44. > :17:48.it will happen. The firm view is an actual exit of Greece from the
:17:48. > :17:54.eurozone would compound bad situation and make it worse.
:17:54. > :17:58.More bad memories are on display at the Leveson Inquiry of the
:17:58. > :18:03.relationship between press and politicians. Everyone there
:18:03. > :18:07.testifys under oath, and the former Prime Minister, Gordon Brown, had a
:18:08. > :18:10.very different version of events than the Murdochs. The political
:18:10. > :18:17.class of this country keep asserting that the public doesn't
:18:17. > :18:21.really give a toss about the relationship. David Grossman does.
:18:21. > :18:26.This inquiry has heard from many who say they were victims of the
:18:26. > :18:29.press. Today it heard from another. Gordon Brown says it was his
:18:29. > :18:33.determination to frustrate news corporation's commercial ambitions
:18:33. > :18:38.that turned them against him. To the advantage of the Conservatives,
:18:38. > :18:42.who he says were only too willing to get cosy. There was a red line
:18:43. > :18:50.in everything I ever did, there was a line in the sand across which I
:18:50. > :18:52.could never cross. If there was any question a vested from interest was
:18:52. > :18:57.trying to promote something that was against the public interest, I
:18:57. > :19:03.could have nothing to do with that. I think you can serve up dinner,
:19:03. > :19:07.but you don't need to serve up BSkyB as part of the dinner.
:19:07. > :19:13.Brown was asked about a story that ran on the front page of the Sun
:19:13. > :19:17.newspaper, on November 2006. It was to do with the health of his then
:19:17. > :19:24.four-month-old son. Previously News International has said it received
:19:24. > :19:28.explicit permission from the Browns to run the story. Today, Mr Brown
:19:29. > :19:33.flatly contradicted them. I ask you if any mother or father was
:19:33. > :19:37.presented with a choice as to whether a four-month-old son's
:19:37. > :19:40.medical condition, your child's medical condition, should be
:19:40. > :19:44.broadcast on the front page of a tabloid newspaper, and you had a
:19:44. > :19:48.choice in this matter, I don't think there is any parent in the
:19:48. > :19:52.land would have made the choice that we are told we made, to give
:19:52. > :19:56.explicit permission for that to happen.
:19:56. > :20:01.Let's remember what Rebekah Brooks has previously told the inquiry.
:20:01. > :20:04.She was the editor of the Sun at the time the story ran. Did you
:20:04. > :20:09.have the express agreement of the Brown, freely given, to publish
:20:09. > :20:13.this story about their son? Absolutely. If the Browns had asked
:20:13. > :20:17.me not to run it, I wouldn't have done. Why did your wife in
:20:17. > :20:22.particular remain good friends with Mrs Brookes, to the extent of
:20:22. > :20:27.arranging a 40th birthday party in Chequers for her in June 2008,
:20:27. > :20:32.attending her birthday party in 2008, and Mrs Brookes we had
:20:32. > :20:37.anything June 200, if what you say is correct? -- 2009, if what you
:20:37. > :20:42.say is correct? Sarah is one of the most forgiving people I know, she
:20:42. > :20:45.finds the good in everyone. versions of events there, two
:20:45. > :20:50.versions of a phonecall that perhaps happened or didn't happen
:20:51. > :20:54.in the autumn of 2009. In it, Gordon Brown told Rupert Murdoch
:20:54. > :20:59.that he was declaring war on the Murdoch empire. Or, perhaps he said
:20:59. > :21:05.no such thing. Here's what Rupert Murdoch
:21:05. > :21:11.previously told the inquiry that Mr Brown had said. Your company has
:21:11. > :21:16.made, declared war on my Government. And we had no alternative but to
:21:16. > :21:21.make war on your company. How could Mr Brown have declared war on your
:21:21. > :21:27.company? I don't know, I don't think he was in a very balanced
:21:27. > :21:31.state of mind. And here, is what Mr Brown told the inquiry today.
:21:31. > :21:35.conversation never took place. I'm shocked and surprised that it
:21:35. > :21:39.should be suggested, even when there is no evidence of such a
:21:39. > :21:42.conversation that it should have happened, but there was no such
:21:42. > :21:46.conversation. And the contradictions didn't end there. If
:21:46. > :21:50.you look back at the press cuttings, or indeed, thumb through any one of
:21:50. > :21:55.a number of biographies and autobiographies of the Blair years,
:21:55. > :21:58.you would have thought that whilst at the Treasury, Gordon Brown ran a
:21:58. > :22:03.merciless political briefing operation. Designed, not only to
:22:03. > :22:07.dispatch Tony Blair, sooner than he wanted to go, but also make sure
:22:07. > :22:16.no-one else but Gordon Brown stepped into Number Ten in his
:22:16. > :22:20.place. Today, we learned that was not what happened at all. Were your
:22:20. > :22:23.aides involved in using the media to attempt to force Mr Blair's
:22:23. > :22:29.resignation, this was in 2006? would hope not. Were they involved?
:22:29. > :22:34.I would hope not. I have no evidence of that.
:22:34. > :22:37.Did you authorise your aides to brief against Mr Blair? No. Do you
:22:37. > :22:41.think they may have done so without your explicit approval, even with
:22:41. > :22:46.your knowledge? If they did so, it was without my authorisation.
:22:46. > :22:52.Next up was the Chancellor, George Osborne. He told the inquiry that
:22:53. > :22:56.at the time he had no view on the BSkyB News Corp bid and he
:22:56. > :22:59.dismissed the idea that there was some sort of grand conspiracy,
:22:59. > :23:04.where the Conservatives gave Rupert Murdoch their support for the bid
:23:04. > :23:08.in return for the Sun's endorsement. It is complete nonsense. The facts
:23:08. > :23:11.simply don't bear it out. We had no idea that they wanted to bid for
:23:11. > :23:16.Sky before the general election. When the general election had
:23:17. > :23:23.happened, Dr Vince Cable, a Lib Dem, is put in charge. And you have to
:23:24. > :23:27.be a real fantasist to believe that come these events we knowingly
:23:27. > :23:30.allowed Vince Cable to be secretly recorded. We knowingly allow the
:23:30. > :23:34.Telegraph not to publish information. That information
:23:34. > :23:38.emerges in the middle of the afternoon. We then, all as part of
:23:38. > :23:42.this cunning plan, put Mr Hunt in charge. Mr Osborne too was asked
:23:42. > :23:48.about the appointment of Andy Coulson as Downing Street's
:23:48. > :23:52.Director of Communications. I have seen people suggest that the reason
:23:52. > :23:56.we hired him was because of his connections with the Murdochs or
:23:56. > :23:58.Rebekah Brooks, or his knowledge of the internal workings of News
:23:58. > :24:03.International, that was not a consideration. Over the next three
:24:03. > :24:06.days we will be hearing from more senior political figure,
:24:06. > :24:11.culminating in the Prime Minister himself on Thursday.
:24:11. > :24:14.Let as discuss now with Phil Hall, a former editor of the News of the
:24:14. > :24:18.World, the Conservative MP, Louise Mensch, and Steve Richards of the
:24:18. > :24:21.Independent, who also produced a documentary series for the BBC on
:24:21. > :24:25.Gordon Brown's time as Prime Minister. We did ask countless
:24:25. > :24:30.former associates of Mr Brown to comment on his testimony, but most
:24:30. > :24:35.appeared more inclined to run repeatedly into an electric fence.
:24:35. > :24:40.Now, Louise Mensch, there are so many contradictory versions here,
:24:40. > :24:45.they can't all these people be telling the truth? No they can't.
:24:45. > :24:49.They absolutely can't. Who do you believe? In the matter of Gordon
:24:49. > :24:52.Brown's child, I believe Gordon Brown, and I think it is a complete
:24:52. > :24:57.red herring whether permission was given or not, because the privacy
:24:57. > :25:02.of a young child was grossly invaded. In the matter of this call
:25:02. > :25:05.with Mr Murdoch, I believe Rupert Murdoch, if only because Gordon
:25:05. > :25:09.Brown's testimony that he never briefed against Tony Blair ever,
:25:09. > :25:12.and didn't authorise his aides to do it was so lacking in credibility
:25:12. > :25:15.that it undermined everything else he said. If you looked on social
:25:15. > :25:20.media today, the reactions of the whole political lobby in
:25:20. > :25:25.Westminster, left and right, from every single paper, poured scorn on
:25:25. > :25:28.this. Did you believe Gordon Brown today? In relation to the specific,
:25:28. > :25:31.I don't know. I have no idea whether he said this to Rupert
:25:31. > :25:34.Murdoch, I have no idea what happened there. I don't think it
:25:34. > :25:37.matters very much. Do you have an idea about whether he briefed or
:25:37. > :25:44.his people briefed against Tony Blair? What I know is he was
:25:44. > :25:49.obsessed with the media, and he was being utterly disengineous to
:25:49. > :25:53.declare a sort of indifference to the media. When he said he wasn't
:25:53. > :26:00.reading papers? He read every paper, someone told me he used to read, as
:26:00. > :26:04.Prime Minister, the papers at 5.00am, by 5.30am he was incredibly
:26:04. > :26:08.depressed. But someone did say you are the only person who reads all
:26:08. > :26:12.the papers, so that is a distorted view of how you are perceived. What
:26:12. > :26:17.he should have said is I'm obsessed by the media, and totally justified
:26:17. > :26:22.in being so, because they remain a powerful shaper of opinion. I think
:26:22. > :26:27.if George Osborne and others...He Didn't say? He undermined the
:26:27. > :26:32.validity of an argument about the power of a media by affecting an
:26:32. > :26:37.indifference to it. Hall, did you believe what he had to say? Not --
:26:37. > :26:40.Phil Hall, did you believe what had he to say? Not a word. There was an
:26:40. > :26:46.interesting clip there, Rebekah Brooks said she didn't have any
:26:46. > :26:49.permission from the Brown, she said if they asked me not to run it, I
:26:49. > :26:53.wouldn't V I think she went to him, and they are very close, the heart
:26:53. > :26:59.of the Leveson thing is how close were leading politicians and the
:26:59. > :27:07.Prime Minister to rooxrooxroox and News International -- Rebekah
:27:07. > :27:10.Brooks, and and News International. I would imagine they went and said
:27:10. > :27:14.they are going to run it and the Browns were afraid.
:27:14. > :27:20.If they had gone to the press commission it wouldn't have money,
:27:20. > :27:23.Tony Blair used it on several occasions. Would you have run it?
:27:23. > :27:26.No, the Press Complaints Commission, I use it now all the time, if you
:27:26. > :27:30.overstep the mark, newspapers won't run the story. I don't see how that
:27:30. > :27:33.has anything to do with it. The privacy of the child was invaded, I
:27:33. > :27:36.don't know that permission could rightly have been given to
:27:36. > :27:40.undermine the privacy of that child's health which will follow
:27:40. > :27:45.him for the rest of his life. journalist has the right to ask a
:27:45. > :27:50.parent if they can run the story. four-month-old baby. He was
:27:50. > :27:54.appallingly treated? The parent has a right to say no and stop the
:27:54. > :27:57.story. I can tell you, 30 years of this, I know many parents who bring
:27:57. > :28:01.these issues to the public, and talk about them to highlight the
:28:01. > :28:08.issues around treatment of children, the media ka and if sillties
:28:08. > :28:13.available to them -- medical facilities available to them.
:28:13. > :28:17.was right to raise the bizarre tax on Afghanistan. The Sun could have
:28:17. > :28:21.gone for them on a few issues, and weirdly, Rebekah Brooks said that
:28:21. > :28:24.was the reason they decided to switch sides. He was obsessed about
:28:24. > :28:27.dealing with Afghanistan, partly actually, to reassure the Murdoch
:28:27. > :28:34.newspaper that is he could deal with this in the same way that Tony
:28:34. > :28:40.Blair did. He was right to say that some of the focus on him in
:28:40. > :28:47.relation to, that and his personal integrity on that was utterly
:28:47. > :28:52.unfair. It was pointed out by Robert Jay, that he had an absolute
:28:52. > :28:58.disgust with Rebekah Brooks, he went to a 40th birthday party and a
:28:59. > :29:03.wedding and his wife joined a bizarre pyjama party. That is a
:29:03. > :29:06.valid point about, I put "they", because he wasn't the only one.
:29:06. > :29:10.They were frightened of the power of people like her, Rebekah Brooks.
:29:10. > :29:15.They did everything they possibly could to keep her, or get her on
:29:15. > :29:18.side. I'm not sure it was just being frightened. I remember Rupert
:29:18. > :29:21.Murdoch at the select committee testifying clearly that the Prime
:29:21. > :29:25.Minister he was closest to was Gordon Brown. The person he felt he
:29:25. > :29:30.had most in common w and the strongest friendship he formed with
:29:30. > :29:34.recent Prime Ministers. The great contrast was with the way George
:29:34. > :29:42.Osborne appeared today. A much more polished performance in the opinion
:29:42. > :29:49.of many observers, and yet very revealing of a kind of inner moral
:29:49. > :29:53.vacuousness, surely, on the the question of the Murdoch role in
:29:53. > :29:55.BSkyB. The only consideration apparently was holding the
:29:55. > :29:59.coalition together. That is a serious consideration. You have to
:29:59. > :30:06.take it on value, as George said, the facts, the deal was given to
:30:06. > :30:09.Vince Cable. I don't think the most far fetched News Corporation
:30:09. > :30:12.conspiracy therapists, could think that giving it to Vince Cable would
:30:12. > :30:18.advance Rupert Murdoch's interests. You believe that the Chancellor of
:30:18. > :30:21.the country has no view on the ownership of BSkyB? He gave his
:30:21. > :30:26.view today, it was an honest one. He said it was an inconvenience, it
:30:26. > :30:29.may be code for something we can't repeat on the BBC. As he rightly
:30:29. > :30:32.said, he knew he would get into trouble with one set of media
:30:32. > :30:37.groups or the other. If you please News Corporation, you displease the
:30:37. > :30:43.BBC, the Telegraph, the Mail, the other media companies, the
:30:43. > :30:46.Independent, who didn't want to see News Corp take over. It was a
:30:46. > :30:49.political performance and he came out of it well. He treated it as a
:30:49. > :30:53.conversation and followed the arguments. The arguments were
:30:53. > :30:57.pretty valid. They have all got a strong argument. I think Cameron
:30:57. > :31:03.will have an easy day on Thursday, when, basically they say, of course
:31:03. > :31:07.we want to get a better press, we had our ideas that we wanted to be
:31:07. > :31:10.put out in the most benevolent climate ever. I don't blame them
:31:11. > :31:14.trying to do. That that is in relation to the Andy Coulson
:31:14. > :31:17.appointment, part of his interrogation today. On BSkyB I
:31:17. > :31:21.never believed the idea they did a deal before the election. It would
:31:21. > :31:25.have been absurd, he explained very clearly why that was the case.
:31:25. > :31:29.There remains the murky area of the switch from Vince Cable to Jeremy
:31:29. > :31:33.Hunt, which I think still remains murky and there are questions to be
:31:33. > :31:39.answered. He suggested that was Jeremy Heywood's idea? I don't
:31:39. > :31:43.think he will appear actively culpable. He was delighted, because
:31:43. > :31:47.we have seen the texts. In the Leveson evidence, the texts and e-
:31:47. > :31:51.mails are more revealing than the one-to-one interrogation. He didn't
:31:51. > :31:54.appear to think that Cable had done anything wrong, it was merely a
:31:54. > :31:58.question of balance within the coalition? He wanted to make sure
:31:58. > :32:01.that Vince Cable remained part of the cabinet. I think he dealt with
:32:01. > :32:06.that in quite a sensible way, which is to be open about it. He didn't
:32:06. > :32:10.want a crisis in the coalition by Vince Cable leaving, that was an
:32:10. > :32:15.honest and wise answer. What did you make of George Osborne's pitch
:32:15. > :32:19.today? I thought he was very comfortable in his own skin. I
:32:19. > :32:22.think because his involvement was fairly narrow, yes he had a
:32:22. > :32:25.conversation with Coulson at the very beginning. In the end the
:32:25. > :32:31.decisions were made by the Prime Minister. I don't agree, I don't
:32:31. > :32:35.think he will get an easy ride. David Cameron? I think he will have
:32:35. > :32:42.to explain his relationship with Rebekah Brooks and whether he was
:32:42. > :32:47.right to send mess js with "lol" in them. He is a smooth operate to I'm
:32:47. > :32:52.sure he will handle it well, but I think he will get a rough ride.
:32:52. > :32:56.They were friends, that is what he will say. I gave George Osborne
:32:56. > :33:00.lots of brownie points when asked if he was a friend of Andy Coulson,
:33:00. > :33:04.he said yes he was and still will be a friend of Andy Coulson but he
:33:04. > :33:10.hasn't been able to speak to him for a year. People appreciate that
:33:10. > :33:13.honesty. There was stark contrast and noticable today approaching
:33:13. > :33:17.various people who were very close to Gordon Brown. Not one of them
:33:17. > :33:20.wanted to come out and talk. This was a man who was Prime Minister
:33:21. > :33:24.only a couple of years ago. What has happened? A lot of the people
:33:24. > :33:28.who went through the trauma of the Premiership, and the build-up to
:33:28. > :33:33.the Premiership, with the whole Blair-Brown rivalry, are simply
:33:33. > :33:37.still getting through it all. There is no doubt there have been many
:33:37. > :33:41.fallings out. The problem he had to today in relation to that, was if
:33:41. > :33:45.he had started saying, yes, there were briefings, yes, Tony Blair and
:33:45. > :33:49.I were falling out all over the place. Someone as obsessed about
:33:49. > :33:53.the headlines as he is, would know that would have been the headlines
:33:53. > :33:57.for tomorrow. He wanted the headlines to be about News
:33:57. > :34:00.International. But not surprisingly, therefore, you don't get many
:34:00. > :34:06.people coming out to depend. That I think that was what was happening
:34:06. > :34:11.today. A piece of modern social engineering has come to a dramatic
:34:11. > :34:15.end. The Red Road housing estate in Glasgow was designed as part of the
:34:15. > :34:21.solution to that city's problems of overcrowding of slums and tenement.
:34:21. > :34:25.A big, bright, futuristic answer to a generations old problem. In the
:34:25. > :34:29.1960s, the new tower blocks were the solution to poor housing.
:34:29. > :34:33.Within decades they were the problem of poor housing, and
:34:33. > :34:43.yesterday they succumb today high explosive. Catrin Nye reflects on
:34:43. > :34:46.
:34:46. > :34:50.how you -- utopia became distopia. Red Road, for more than 40ies these
:34:50. > :34:53.vast imposing structures have loomed -- 40 years these vast
:34:53. > :34:57.imposing structures have loomed over Glasgow. They were homes, the
:34:57. > :35:07.solution to a post-war housing crisis they will be mourned as
:35:07. > :35:10.something greater. You are part of something big and grand. Look at
:35:10. > :35:20.the size of these. This will all disappear from the face of the
:35:20. > :35:21.
:35:21. > :35:25.earth. Weather through years of neglect, -- whether through years
:35:25. > :35:29.of neglect, loathed as they were loved. A big dumping ground, big
:35:29. > :35:34.grey stones. But to their very end, they have provided the sanctuary
:35:34. > :35:40.for which they were created. man is 60 years old, he labours on
:35:40. > :35:47.usual all the buildings, is there to the last in 1969. He builds the
:35:47. > :35:52.concrete castle for the paths to go from building to building. Sleek,
:35:52. > :35:57.space age, mammoth, Rid Road says his mother, Red Road, houses for
:35:57. > :36:03.thousands. There aren't many blocks of flats
:36:03. > :36:06.that can claim a novel, a film, and countless artworks dedicated to
:36:07. > :36:10.their memory. But Red Road was always some what unique. The
:36:10. > :36:15.initial plans for these buildings were fairly modest. By the time
:36:15. > :36:19.they were completed in 1969, they had become something of an
:36:19. > :36:26.architectural experiment. The highest tower blocks in kwhruep,
:36:26. > :36:35.home to almost 5 -- Europe. Home to almost 5,000 people. For each of
:36:35. > :36:39.the residents, an entirely different new way of living.
:36:39. > :36:44.# My heart's on fire # Elvira
:36:44. > :36:53.These were the very first of those residents, and they have stuck with
:36:53. > :36:58.Red Road until the very end. Jean McGeough moved in on day one,
:36:58. > :37:07.she picked a ticket at random, and on it was her flat number and floor.
:37:07. > :37:11.They got offered in St Peter's drive, we walked from there --
:37:11. > :37:14.Petershill Drive, we walked up from there, we thought they would be
:37:14. > :37:21.left. And they said look at the crowds. People were out taking
:37:21. > :37:26.pictures and doing this and that. I went, oh my goodness. They went
:37:26. > :37:33.are you going to be a tenant? I said I hoped so. I had my neighbour
:37:33. > :37:37.with me, I said you pick. She said no, pick it yourself. So I picked 9,
:37:37. > :37:43.so I'm quite happy I got it and I was happy. I'm very happy there.
:37:43. > :37:48.Very, very, very happy. No half measures about Glasgow
:37:48. > :37:54.housing, everything's looking up at the development. Red Road came in
:37:54. > :37:59.the latter part of the boom years for high rise. 4,500 people will
:37:59. > :38:03.have a pilot's eye view of the great city, and enjoy it in modern
:38:03. > :38:13.comfort. Immediately post Second World War, Glasgow was faced with
:38:13. > :38:13.
:38:14. > :38:18.an acute housing shortage problem. Some Soviet delegates studying
:38:18. > :38:21.rehouse pring in the party. flats created the ultimate in
:38:22. > :38:31.communal living, a project on the scale you wouldn't see today.
:38:32. > :38:41.
:38:41. > :38:45.cost, so far, more than �6 million. Look at the housing, they are
:38:45. > :38:49.amazing, on a formal level, they will never exist in the world again.
:38:49. > :38:54.The sheer size of the buildings is symbolic of the post-war social
:38:54. > :38:57.consensus. The idea that what you had in Glasgow, was these
:38:57. > :39:00.overcrowded inner city tenements, and there was the idea that people
:39:00. > :39:04.were going to get better housing and move out. They were going to
:39:04. > :39:08.get this light, this modernist ideal of light and fresh air, and
:39:08. > :39:11.so forth. But there was still the idea, of course, of the social, the
:39:11. > :39:14.community. That is what you have here. You have 5,000 people, but it
:39:14. > :39:19.is a community that is here. It might be created artificially. But
:39:19. > :39:24.that is essentially what the welfare state was. The recreation
:39:24. > :39:33.of communities from these delap dated and poverty-striken
:39:33. > :39:41.communities that we find in the earlyly to mid-20th century.
:39:41. > :39:46.Road had purpose built pubs and shobs and even an underground bingo
:39:46. > :39:50.hall. It was a golden period, all the problems with high rise mere
:39:50. > :39:57.quirks of life. The shift to this way of living was so significant
:39:57. > :40:02.for Glasgow, it earned a place in the city's folk history.
:40:02. > :40:08.# I'm a skyscraper # I live on the 19th floor
:40:08. > :40:13.# But I'm not gonna play You can see it in the culture,
:40:13. > :40:16.there is the idea that the culture of kids coming home from school, in
:40:16. > :40:21.the old tenement areas, their mother would throw them out a
:40:21. > :40:25.sandwich, a piece, they call it, from first, second, third, fourth
:40:25. > :40:31.floor, there is a song about that saying you can't fling pieces out
:40:31. > :40:36.of a 20 storey flat. Your mother won't throw a story down 8 floors
:40:36. > :40:43.to you. One of the pigeons or -- 28 floors. One of the pigeon also get
:40:43. > :40:50.it before you do. # The odds against reaching it
:40:51. > :40:55.# Are 99-1 From that initial wave of hope, soon came a far more harsh
:40:55. > :40:58.reality for Red Road. The high rise towers became symbols of poverty
:40:58. > :41:08.and alienation. The very problems from which they were designed to
:41:08. > :41:14.
:41:14. > :41:21.Like many of the first residents, Jeanne moved out of Red Road, and
:41:21. > :41:29.by the time, as Alan Peter lived there in the late 1980, it had a
:41:29. > :41:34.very different kind of community. No longer a desirable place, they
:41:34. > :41:38.were housing those with nowhere to go. As Alan's neighbours robbed for
:41:38. > :41:44.a living, people weren't taking it in turns to clean the hallways any
:41:44. > :41:49.more. Black cab dropped us off at the back of the building, when you
:41:49. > :41:54.get out and you see this big huge monster building. You were like is
:41:54. > :42:00.this it, and the entrance is around the front.
:42:00. > :42:06.Two residents beforehand, who stayed there before me, had both
:42:06. > :42:11.jumped out the kitchen wind development was it a QikSave. When
:42:11. > :42:17.you look out of the kitchen window you could see where they landed.
:42:17. > :42:21.the late 1980s there was a lot of unemployment. Hair win was coming
:42:21. > :42:24.back in. It was rough. -- Heroin was coming back in. It was rough,
:42:24. > :42:30.there was a lot of unemployment, they were closing down the
:42:30. > :42:34.shipyards as well. There was no no jobs about. Crime
:42:34. > :42:38.seemed to be the easiest way to pay for things. If you were a single
:42:38. > :42:48.guy and you put your name down for flat, you would get shoved here.
:42:48. > :43:00.
:43:00. > :43:03.That is just the way it is. It was In the early 1970s, there would be
:43:03. > :43:07.queues for the lifts in the morning for men going to work, in the
:43:07. > :43:11.shipyards. But coming into the 1980s, there was no problem getting
:43:12. > :43:16.a lift in the morning to go to work. There was the idea of despair, the
:43:16. > :43:24.idea that things were coming to an end, there was no future in places
:43:24. > :43:34.like this. We get this problem word, residualisation, which really
:43:34. > :43:41.
:43:41. > :43:44.This could have been the end of the story for Red Road. There is
:43:44. > :43:50.another, final chapter, created as much by international developments,
:43:50. > :43:56.as those locally. The flats became a home for asylum
:43:56. > :44:03.seekers, initially those fleeing Kosovo, but residents from as many
:44:03. > :44:08.troubled countries as you can name. Congalese, Libyan, huge numbers of
:44:08. > :44:14.Chinese, fleeing politicians. There are more horror stories, family of
:44:14. > :44:18.Russians jumped to their deaths from the flats in 2010.
:44:18. > :44:26.For some, though, Red Road has echoed its original purpose, a
:44:26. > :44:30.place that inspires awe, that creates communities.
:44:30. > :44:36.This man arrived in 2007 from Pakistan. What did your family
:44:36. > :44:42.think of their new home? It is just like what you see in the aeroplane.
:44:42. > :44:48.You just see down. You think that you are just in the aeroplane. We
:44:48. > :44:52.can see all the city of Glasgow from our flat. If we go to the
:44:52. > :44:58.kitchen there is a view of mountains, if we come to the living
:44:58. > :45:04.room there is a view of the whole city. The families were just
:45:04. > :45:08.together. My younger daughter was born here. She was born in the Red
:45:08. > :45:15.Road flats. You have a Red Road baby? Yeah.
:45:15. > :45:21.We have a Red Road baby. And so on, and so on, and so on.
:45:21. > :45:31.Till the tenants were gone and the buildings only steel and girders
:45:31. > :45:45.
:45:45. > :45:49.That report was from Catrin Nye. And tomorrow morning's front pages
:45:49. > :45:54.now. The Financial Times has news that Jose Manuel Barroso of the
:45:54. > :45:58.European Commission would like to see all European banks, right
:45:58. > :46:01.across the European Union regulated by the same superviser. The
:46:01. > :46:05.Independent has pictures of the England football team who managed a
:46:05. > :46:15.1-1 draw with France this evening. Doctors face a ban on denying
:46:15. > :46:33.
:46:33. > :46:43.treatment to the elderly. According That's it for tonight. Parting is
:46:43. > :47:08.
:47:08. > :47:13.The rain will ease a little bit overnight across southern counties,
:47:13. > :47:16.it won't be as intense as over the last 24 hours. Still there in the
:47:16. > :47:19.morning. Heavy showers once again developing across Wales, south-west
:47:19. > :47:23.England and Northern Ireland. Much of northern England will be dry
:47:23. > :47:27.with brightness. Temperatures could reach 16-17, cooler on the east
:47:27. > :47:30.coast. A dryer day across the Midland and East Anglia, eventually
:47:30. > :47:35.drying up across the south-east. Some rain in Kent and Hampshire
:47:35. > :47:38.until late in the day. In the south west of England, slow-moving, heavy,
:47:38. > :47:42.thundery showers could develop, as they could across parts of west
:47:42. > :47:48.Wales, like today. They will be very much hit and miss, but some
:47:48. > :47:51.places could get a real soak. For Northern Ireland expect heavy,
:47:51. > :47:56.intense downpours, not everywhere catching one. Some places in the
:47:56. > :48:01.east will stay dry. Much of Scotland will stay dry, showers few
:48:01. > :48:04.and far between. But temperatures struggling into double figures. Not
:48:04. > :48:07.much warmer on Wednesday. The likelihood of heavy showers for
:48:07. > :48:12.Northern Ireland. Further south for parts of Wales and south-west
:48:12. > :48:15.England. There could well be some lively downpours across Wednesday.