:00:17. > :00:26.Tonight pl, Cameron at Leveson, how the Chipping Norton set and their
:00:26. > :00:30.colleagues didn't do. And Rebekah Brooks and the text. I'm rooting
:00:30. > :00:38.for you, not just personally, but professionally we are in this
:00:38. > :00:42.together, and there was an exclammation mark and "yes he Cam".
:00:42. > :00:46.My guests are here, what damage has this done to David Cameron.
:00:46. > :00:50.While the Newsnight political panel analyse the fall-out from this
:00:50. > :00:55.week's parade the leaders on the stand. Hundreds of witnesses, reems
:00:55. > :01:02.of document, millions of pounds, ten months duration, and counting,
:01:02. > :01:06.will there be any lasting heritage from Leveson.
:01:06. > :01:10.My guests join me. Also tonight, will the Government
:01:10. > :01:14.and the Bank of England's roll of the dice to boost the UK economy
:01:14. > :01:19.actually work. And Paul Mason looks at the desperation putting Greece
:01:19. > :01:24.into the arms of the far left Syriza Party.
:01:24. > :01:28.When a party of Marxists, radical greens and feminists, is getting
:01:28. > :01:37.votes from farmers three hours into the mountains of Athens, something
:01:37. > :01:40.is going on. Good evening t may be a piece of
:01:40. > :01:44.correspondence that he regrets ever receiving, because contained in
:01:44. > :01:47.just 84 words are a set of phrases and connection that is could be
:01:47. > :01:50.seen as defining David Cameron's time as Prime Minister. It was, by
:01:50. > :01:54.default, the centre piece of his five-hour appearance in front of
:01:54. > :01:59.Lord Leveson. You can bet your bottom dollar, that when Mr Cameron
:01:59. > :02:03.set up the inquiry, he had no idea this short text would ping into the
:02:03. > :02:13.public domain. Previously in court 73.
:02:13. > :02:18.We have had Rebekah Brooks. "LOL", lots of love. Murdoch mur. We had
:02:18. > :02:22.no alternative, but to make war on your company. Gordon Brown? This
:02:22. > :02:26.conversation never took place. Nick Clegg? I was at the end of the
:02:26. > :02:31.table where the children sit. the executive producer, the man who
:02:31. > :02:36.gave us this show, made his own appearance. It is on our screens
:02:36. > :02:40.now. It is not often you get to see a serving Prime Minister taking the
:02:40. > :02:44.oath in court. This week pl, Cameron's predecessor as Prime
:02:44. > :02:49.Minister sat in the same chair and abused him of doing a deal with
:02:49. > :02:54.Rupert Murdoch. Of course, I wanted to win over newspapers, and other
:02:54. > :02:58.journalist, editors, proprietors, and I worked very hard at that,
:02:58. > :03:02.because I wanted to communicate what the Conservative Party and the
:03:02. > :03:07.leadership could do for the country. I made that argument. I didn't do
:03:07. > :03:11.it on the basis of saying, either overtly or covertly, saying that
:03:11. > :03:17.your support will mean I will give awe better time on this or that
:03:17. > :03:23.policy. Of course the Sun did give the Conservatives its endorsement
:03:23. > :03:26.in December of 2009, Labour's lost it" of the headline. If gave the
:03:26. > :03:29.Conservatives massive boost going into their conference this week. A
:03:29. > :03:34.conference where they introduced the world to this slogan. We are
:03:34. > :03:36.all in this together. From the day after that speech, the inquiry saw
:03:36. > :03:42.evidence of the close relationship between David Cameron and Rebekah
:03:42. > :03:44.Brooks. It was taex that Mrs Brookes sent to Mr Cameron, it was
:03:44. > :03:54.the eve of his big conference speech. The text talk about meeting
:03:54. > :03:57.for a meal. It seemed Mrs Cameron had dep but
:03:57. > :04:07.advertised for her husband attending a News International
:04:07. > :04:22.
:04:22. > :04:26.The phrase, "but because professionally we're definitely in
:04:26. > :04:30.this together ". What was your understanding of that? I think that
:04:30. > :04:36.is about the Sun had made this decision to back the Conservatives,
:04:36. > :04:39.to part company with Labour, and so the Sun wanted to make sure it was
:04:39. > :04:42.helping the Conservative Party put its best foot forward, with the
:04:42. > :04:48.policies we were announcing, the speech I was going to make and all
:04:48. > :04:51.the rest of it. I think that is what that means.
:04:51. > :04:56.So the adverb "professionally", is covering the fact that the Sun and
:04:56. > :04:59.you were bound together, to some extent. I think what it means as
:04:59. > :05:03.she put it, we are friends, but professionally, me as leader of the
:05:03. > :05:13.Conservative Party, her in newspapers, we were going to be
:05:13. > :05:14.
:05:14. > :05:20.pushing the same political agenda. And the "country supper" she refers
:05:20. > :05:27.to. Sort of in a forward-looking way, is that the sort of
:05:27. > :05:31.interaction you often had with her? Yes, we are neighbours.
:05:31. > :05:36.Mr Cameron was also asked about his decision to hire Andy Coulson as
:05:36. > :05:38.Downing Street's Director of Communications. It wasn't, he told
:05:38. > :05:41.the inquiry, principally to forge closer links with News
:05:41. > :05:45.International. If what lies behind the question,
:05:45. > :05:49.were you after a News International executive, because this is going to
:05:49. > :05:54.make it easier to win over the News of the World, or whatever, no, that
:05:54. > :05:59.wasn't the calculation. Mr Cameron was also quizzed at length about
:05:59. > :06:03.his decision to give the job of deciding the BSkyB bid to the
:06:03. > :06:08.Culture Secretary, Jeremy Hunt. Despite the fact that Mr Hunt had
:06:08. > :06:12.already made his views clear, that he supported BSkyB being taken over
:06:12. > :06:16.by News Corp. The decision had to be made in something of a hurry.
:06:16. > :06:20.Vince Cable did have the job, but he was secretly recorded saying he
:06:20. > :06:24.had declared war on Rupert Murdoch. As Culture Secretary, Jeremy Hunt
:06:24. > :06:29.would have been the natural person to take on the role. But he was
:06:29. > :06:33.known as a Murdoch supporter. The Government's top lawyer, Simon
:06:33. > :06:43.Jenkins, was on leave at the time. He -- Paul Jenkins, was on leave at
:06:43. > :06:50.
:06:50. > :06:54.the time, he gave his opinion over However, it turns out, that when Mr
:06:54. > :07:00.Jenkins cleared Jeremy Hunt to decide the bid, he hadn't been told
:07:00. > :07:04.about a rather chummy text message, that Jeremy Hunt had sent to James
:07:04. > :07:08.Murdoch in support of the bid. "congratulations on Brussels, just
:07:08. > :07:12.Ofcom to go", it said. Nor was he told about a note he had written to
:07:12. > :07:15.the Prime Minister, warning that if they block it, the bid, the media
:07:15. > :07:18.sector, will suffer for years. contention is what is in the
:07:18. > :07:23.private note is not really different to what he said publicly
:07:23. > :07:27.indeed what he said publicly is more effusive. I think it is note-
:07:27. > :07:34.worthy that we have now got this witness statement from Paul Jenkins,
:07:34. > :07:38.the Government lawyer, who says very clearly "skap I'm quite clear
:07:38. > :07:41.that my advice to Sir Gus would have been any different had I seen
:07:41. > :07:44.the note at the time ". I accept there is proves, but the backing
:07:44. > :07:49.two of permanent secretaries and lawyer is quite a strong state of
:07:49. > :07:54.affairs. Although Mr Cameron commissioned
:07:54. > :07:57.this blockbuster series, doesn't get to write the script. Today was
:07:57. > :08:01.embarrassing, perhaps rather than explosives. Even so, the
:08:01. > :08:05.cliffhanger we have been left with, how much, if any, damage has been
:08:05. > :08:08.done. To talk about the Prime Minister's
:08:08. > :08:12.appearance today, with me are the Conservative Deputy Chairman,
:08:12. > :08:17.Michael Fallon, and Tom Watson, the Labour member of the culture select
:08:17. > :08:24.committee. Fallon, first of all, the phrase -- Michael Fallon, first
:08:24. > :08:29.of all, the phrase from Rebekah Brooks's text "we're all in this
:08:29. > :08:34.together", that was made and we thought it was for us, but it was,
:08:34. > :08:38.the Prime Minister, David Cameron, and the Chipping Norton set?
:08:38. > :08:41.made that point, we were all in this together, and they were. When
:08:41. > :08:46.they decided to back the Conservative Party, the leader of
:08:46. > :08:50.the party and the editor of the newspaper were in in together.
:08:50. > :08:55.the Chipping Norton set were in it with News International, is the
:08:55. > :08:59.point we make. What is a country supper? I don't know, if it is an
:08:59. > :09:03.embarrassment this text, it is to Rebekah Brooks, she sent it, not
:09:03. > :09:07.David Cameron. Obviously he and she knows what a country supper is,
:09:07. > :09:12.whether you do or not, this is an intimate gathering? They live quite
:09:12. > :09:18.close to each other. Her husband has been a friend of David
:09:18. > :09:21.Cameron's for 20-30 years, they see each other at weekends. That
:09:21. > :09:26.doesn't prove anything. Is it outlandish to say she had a hand in
:09:26. > :09:29.the speech that came the next day? Yes t the paper had only just
:09:29. > :09:32.decided to put its weight behind the Conservatives. It is
:09:32. > :09:35.uncomfortable? For her. It is also for David Cameron? Why, he had been
:09:35. > :09:38.trying to win over the support of the newspapers, he has been trying
:09:38. > :09:44.to win over the support of all the other newspapers. That is why we
:09:44. > :09:49.chose him as leader, it is his job. It wasn't friendship, it was one-
:09:49. > :09:53.sided friendship, it was not a two- way street, it was Rebekah Brooks
:09:53. > :09:56.courting David Cameron she was a friend of her husband's foreyears,
:09:56. > :09:59.and there is no mystery about. That he was on the stand for five hours
:09:59. > :10:03.today. He answered every single question, if this text is all you
:10:03. > :10:10.can come up with, I don't think that is sufficient evidence of some
:10:10. > :10:13.conspiracy. The point s the text, as embarrassing as it is, it might
:10:14. > :10:17.be uncomfortable, but, in fact, there was no smoking gun, no
:10:17. > :10:21.problem about the News International bid for BSkyB. We
:10:21. > :10:25.heard today it had actually followed what should have happened,
:10:25. > :10:29.Cable was then followed by Jeremy Hunt, there was no problem. Michael
:10:30. > :10:33.is right on, that the text was deeply embarrassing, and showed the
:10:33. > :10:37.closeness of the relationship. Where I was more disappointed today
:10:37. > :10:41.was the fact that David Cameron seemed lukewarm on the process. And
:10:42. > :10:47.wasn't prepared sketch out his ideas about what reform would look
:10:47. > :10:53.like. My fear for in the last few weeks, is that the coalition are
:10:53. > :10:56.beginning to go cold on Leveson. I think he really owes the Dowler
:10:56. > :11:00.family and the country a greater explanation about what he intends
:11:00. > :11:04.do when Leveson reports. It will be interesting because Lawrence
:11:04. > :11:07.Leveson will not be keen to hear. That your suggestion will be that
:11:07. > :11:11.nothing much will come out of it, simply because David Cameron didn't
:11:11. > :11:17.show his colours today? You know I think everyone now knows they were
:11:17. > :11:22.very close. We just saw mores conversation of that today. More
:11:22. > :11:27.woreing -- more confirmation that have today. More worryingly, we are
:11:27. > :11:30.seeing PR people saying unless Leveson deals with this over the
:11:30. > :11:34.Internet it will be flawed. This strikes me as the beginnings of the
:11:34. > :11:37.Government to go kopbld it and put it into the long -- cold on this,
:11:38. > :11:42.and put it into the long grass. That would be a betrayal. He missed
:11:42. > :11:46.the opportunity to restate the case for Leveson. Looking at one of the
:11:46. > :11:49.other major topics of conversation today on Andy Coulson. Don't you
:11:49. > :11:52.and other Conservative MPs feel kind of let down by David Cameron
:11:53. > :11:58.over this. Now we know he wanted to get to the part of the country he
:11:58. > :12:02.couldn't really get to. That is why he hired Coulson. There were four
:12:02. > :12:06.other candidates. This was not only a mistake, it was an error of
:12:06. > :12:10.judgment? With hindsight all these things look easier. At the time he
:12:10. > :12:13.sought assurances from Andy Coulson, he got assurances from Andy Coulson.
:12:13. > :12:17.The same ashourpbss were given to parliament. They were given to --
:12:17. > :12:22.assurances were given to parliament. They were goifrpb a court of law.
:12:22. > :12:26.If it turns out those -- given to a court of law. If it turns out those
:12:26. > :12:30.assurances were false, that was down to Andy Coulson. It was
:12:30. > :12:35.incredibly regretable that when you wanted to get on and bring on
:12:35. > :12:39.policies, the Coulson affair was hijacking what you were promoting?
:12:39. > :12:45.That is correct. That is why we have gone forward with the inquiry
:12:45. > :12:48.to find a better way forward for these issues. What was striking by
:12:49. > :12:53.the Prime Minister's evidence today is he finished talking about the
:12:53. > :12:57.Dowler case. To show this isn't just about celebrities and people
:12:57. > :13:03.who can afford lawyers, but we need a situation where we have a system
:13:03. > :13:05.that provides redress to families like the Dowlers and others. Even
:13:05. > :13:09.the almost always patient Lord Leveson said last month he was
:13:09. > :13:12.ready to go back to productive judicial work. His phrase. That may
:13:12. > :13:18.be some way off. There are still many more witnesss to hear from.
:13:18. > :13:22.And then the judge has to think deep thoughts.
:13:22. > :13:25.Since David Cameron established the Leveson Inquiry last July, it has
:13:25. > :13:28.already cost more than �2 million. There have been over 300 witnesses
:13:29. > :13:35.in the hot seat, and the publication of 500 pieces of
:13:35. > :13:39.evidence, since the father and mother of murdered schoolgirl,
:13:39. > :13:44.Milly Dowler gave evidence in front of Lord Leveson in November.
:13:44. > :13:47.felt like such an intrusion into a really, really private grief moment.
:13:47. > :13:52.They include three former prime ministers, six cabinet ministers, a
:13:52. > :13:57.host of celebrities, and even a splash of TV presenters. Most
:13:57. > :14:01.facing Lord Leveson's attack job, chief inquisitor, Robert Jay.
:14:01. > :14:05.are formally presenting this as your evidence to our inquiry.
:14:05. > :14:09.cameras were installed in court 73 in the Royal Court of justice to
:14:09. > :14:12.broadcast the hearings worldwide, as only court participants and 14
:14:12. > :14:16.members of the public are allowed actually to sit in. The testimony
:14:16. > :14:19.is due to end in July, although the judge's report is not expected
:14:19. > :14:25.until the Autumn. Here to discuss the legacy of the Leveson qieorny
:14:25. > :14:31.are a former editor of the Times, Simon Jenkins, phone hacking victim,
:14:31. > :14:37.Abi Titmuss, ex-tabloid reporter, Richard Peppiatt, and the Labour MP
:14:37. > :14:41.culture select committee member. From what we saw today, Simon
:14:41. > :14:46.Jenkins, of the awkward closeness, between politician and journalist,
:14:47. > :14:50.is that in itself not a good subject from the Leveson Inquiry to
:14:50. > :14:54.air. We need to hear about these things, don't we? We need to hear
:14:54. > :14:58.about them, we have heard about them for several months. It is not
:14:58. > :15:01.unusual, nothing knew about it. It is worth knowing about things that
:15:01. > :15:05.were probably hidden and should be brought into the open. I have no
:15:05. > :15:10.problem with that at all. I think it is great pity an opportunity is
:15:10. > :15:13.going lost. This is being run as a show trial for the Murdochs, but
:15:13. > :15:16.honestly if there is serious things to discuss about journalistic
:15:16. > :15:22.ethics you need to be balanced about it. It shouldn't be a court
:15:22. > :15:27.of law t should be a seminar, or committee of inquiry, rather than
:15:27. > :15:30.this take-dog figure, going for everyone in a Richard Nixon way.
:15:30. > :15:35.be fair, it is not just Murdoch in the frame, the conversation is
:15:35. > :15:40.about other newspapers as well? Hardly, you could be forgiven for
:15:40. > :15:44.thinking this is a show trial of the Murdoch empire. The Murdoch
:15:44. > :15:50.empire was trying to exert political pressure, no doubt about
:15:50. > :15:55.t every newspaper does and every proprietor has. Is that what you
:15:55. > :16:00.think? It's him just defending Rupert Murdoch. There is Richard
:16:00. > :16:05.Peppiatt talking about what toxic tabloid journalism is really like,
:16:05. > :16:10.Abi Titmuss here has been attacked. This is PR from the media people.
:16:10. > :16:14.Abi Titmuss, your phone was hacked, you took a settlement. Do you feel
:16:14. > :16:19.that watching this inquiry we are actually getting something that is
:16:19. > :16:24.productive and will make a change, or are you, perhaps, of the mind
:16:24. > :16:27.that it will go away, it will just be the same. There was an inquiry
:16:27. > :16:31.20 years ago and nothing really changed? I imagine Lord Leveson
:16:31. > :16:34.feels the weight of history on his shoulders at the moment. I imagine
:16:34. > :16:37.he's keen to make changes. That is the right thing. When it comes to
:16:38. > :16:41.press regulation, that is a very difficult question, I think free
:16:41. > :16:46.press is vital for democracy. For example, obvious low the media give
:16:46. > :16:49.me the information I need to vote, but, therefore, for me, what I
:16:49. > :16:54.would like to see regulated is the relationship between press and
:16:54. > :16:57.politician, the leaders and the media owners, I would like that to
:16:58. > :17:05.be formal and transparent. In your own case, I think you talked about
:17:05. > :17:08.it as being one part toxic co- dependency your relationships with
:17:08. > :17:13.the tabloids. Did you feel in any way, not that you were complicit,
:17:13. > :17:17.but you were in a game? You even if the Faustian pact that Steve kooing
:17:17. > :17:21.began was referring. To when I talk about this subject, I start about
:17:21. > :17:25.saying, yes I have a relationship with the press, I still do I
:17:25. > :17:31.embraced it to begin with to a certain extent. You courted them?
:17:31. > :17:36.They came to me I wouldn't say to start off with I courted them. I
:17:36. > :17:40.didn't have a choice that they hacked my own or followed me and
:17:40. > :17:46.took my picture -- my phone, and they followed me and took my
:17:46. > :17:51.picture. I tried to take some sort of control over it. It came toxic
:17:51. > :17:54.co-dependance, it was symbiotic. It is very different now. Do you think
:17:54. > :17:58.it has changed, the whole question of the relationship between
:17:58. > :18:02.celebrities and the red tops? fascinating seeing some of the
:18:02. > :18:06.defences put forward by the tabloid editors, picture desks, saying a
:18:06. > :18:10.lot of the paparazzi pictures are set up, and the stories are set up.
:18:10. > :18:13.What I don't seem to recognise is when you are presenting a story in
:18:13. > :18:16.a newspaper, if it is set up, and you are not admitting to the reader,
:18:16. > :18:19.you are lying to them. You are pretending something is happening
:18:20. > :18:25.that is not. This isn't news, this is entertainment. That is an
:18:25. > :18:28.entertainment product. There needs to be a distinction drawn between
:18:28. > :18:32.proper public interest journalism and entertainment. The problem for
:18:32. > :18:36.the public is trust has gone in many ways, not only of politician,
:18:36. > :18:41.but of newspapers. That, in a declining market, is a pretty awful
:18:41. > :18:47.thing. Leveson n a sense, has exposed that lack of trust.
:18:47. > :18:52.I think he has. Tom's select committee did a bit of work on.
:18:52. > :18:57.That it became ludicrous to the extreme, I'm not a PR man for the
:18:57. > :19:02.Murdoch press, but for the Guardian, I resent the suggestion I am. The
:19:02. > :19:06.only way to conduct the debate t seems, that if Tom disagrees with t
:19:06. > :19:10.they are hack for the Murdochs. Let's go back to your point. There
:19:10. > :19:15.is a real chance here of trying to get a Code of Practise for
:19:15. > :19:19.journalist, I don't think it can be handled statutoryly, we tried it on
:19:19. > :19:22.a previous committee and we didn't succeed. The Calcot committee, that
:19:22. > :19:26.set up the press complaints committee, it was right to say, if
:19:26. > :19:31.this is not working in 18 months, we will look at it again. Here we
:19:31. > :19:36.are 0 years later, they never looked at it -- 20 years later,
:19:36. > :19:39.they nevered at it again? That was the third committee. Can you make a
:19:39. > :19:43.voluntary code? Can you make a code, and plead with a new press
:19:43. > :19:48.complaints commity. That is what will happen any way. Plead with
:19:48. > :19:53.them to be more tough on journalist, more independent and all of that.
:19:53. > :19:57.You can pass a law and set autopsy quango to run the press, it is not
:19:57. > :20:02.on. You are setting up a false dichotomy, with the greatest
:20:02. > :20:06.respect. This is not a decision between statutory regulation and a
:20:06. > :20:10.free-for-all. There is a huge grey area. Let's be clear, you are in
:20:10. > :20:12.favour of statutory regulation? in favour of a statutory
:20:12. > :20:16.underpinning of regulation independent of Government, and of
:20:16. > :20:22.the press. It will have members of the press involved with it, but
:20:22. > :20:28.there is statutory balances to make sure that politicians cannot
:20:28. > :20:32.interfere with the freedom of the press. Let's not forget that proper
:20:32. > :20:35.regulatory system will protect journalists as much as the public.
:20:35. > :20:39.It will mean the excesses we have seen, where journalists feel
:20:39. > :20:42.pressure today do immoral and illegal things won't occur because
:20:42. > :20:46.there won't be the pressure within the companies themselves. I think
:20:46. > :20:49.that is possible. There needs to be a Press Complaints Commission,
:20:49. > :20:55.which is the mediator, between the complaints and the press. There
:20:55. > :20:58.need to be a body overseeing the professionalism of journalism.
:20:58. > :21:01.is why it is so important to have the inquiry, and it is worth having.
:21:01. > :21:05.I spoke to people, knowing I was coming on the show, the general
:21:05. > :21:09.public are bored with it, they think it is all about celebrities
:21:09. > :21:13.whose phones have been hacked, who are getting settlements, as you
:21:13. > :21:17.mentioned. It is bring to go the attention issues pertinent to all
:21:17. > :21:22.of us, which is the power of media owners and the relationship between
:21:22. > :21:25.press and politicians. In a democratic society we should be
:21:25. > :21:28.concerned. Isn't there danger the public will be turned away from the
:21:28. > :21:33.politicians and the press, and there has to be a positive outcome,
:21:33. > :21:36.would that positive outcome for you be statutory legislation. I think
:21:37. > :21:40.Richard nailed it on the head. Independent regulation. The goal
:21:40. > :21:45.should be that. We are meant to have independent regulation at the
:21:45. > :21:49.moment? We haven't any regulation, we might be reaching a consensus
:21:49. > :21:52.here. The goal should be to oblige an editor to put a matter right
:21:52. > :21:57.when they have made a mistake, or deliberately done something wrong.
:21:57. > :22:00.The remedy is slightly harder to find, but it is not beyond the wit
:22:00. > :22:04.of man do that. It is very difficult. We are looking for the
:22:04. > :22:07.same thing. We are trying to find some way of making journalists to
:22:07. > :22:12.behave more responsibly when they do their work. Nobody has any
:22:12. > :22:16.quarrel with that. They are up against fierce competitive forces,
:22:16. > :22:20.and actresses and politicians, keen to get on with them in various ways,
:22:20. > :22:23.it is extremely difficult to regulate these relationships. I
:22:23. > :22:26.genuinely believe you won't get there. You won't get a law that
:22:26. > :22:30.makes any sense here. All you can get is some form of discipline,
:22:30. > :22:36.that has to be self-discipline, out of the system you have at the
:22:36. > :22:40.moment. It will be another version of now. It really won't make much
:22:40. > :22:47.difference? I don't think so. you believe after all these months,
:22:47. > :22:51.Lord Leveson must be head in hands listening to this discussion. He
:22:51. > :22:55.wants proper judicial work hast to sit through these endless witnesses.
:22:55. > :22:58.It will be much more than �2 million at the end? If all the
:22:58. > :23:03.money, wasted by Government, I would happily see an inquiry every
:23:03. > :23:09.other year into some element of our political process. I think we have
:23:09. > :23:14.more insight, as a public, into how the machinations of Westminster,
:23:14. > :23:17.how decisions get made, than we have in decades of parliament.
:23:17. > :23:21.have greater participation in democracy because of it do you
:23:21. > :23:25.think? I think so. I think it is refresh to go see when newspapers
:23:25. > :23:30.editors are sending lots of love to prime ministers. This we should
:23:30. > :23:34.know about. I think it is brilliant. I think Lord Leveson put it
:23:34. > :23:38.beautifully in the start of the inquiry, saying who guards the
:23:38. > :23:42.guardians. Do you think it will make any difference, Simon is being
:23:42. > :23:46.cynical here, but doesn't actually think the Leveson Inquiry will make
:23:46. > :23:50.any difference? I hope so. It will take radical and robust proposals
:23:50. > :23:55.all parties can rally behind, I hope he can do it. People were
:23:55. > :23:57.doing far worse things in the 1980s than now. Journalists were doing
:23:57. > :24:02.worse, the relationship between journalists and politicians was
:24:02. > :24:06.closer and more venal. The BBC was getting into bed with politician,
:24:06. > :24:09.and the lawyers getting into bed with politicians. I'm all for
:24:09. > :24:14.exposing things, I agree with Richard to this extent. It wasn't
:24:14. > :24:17.that bad this time. This is not just all about what we are hearing
:24:17. > :24:19.today about David Cameron there were other former prime ministers,
:24:20. > :24:23.including Gordon Brown earlier this week. And then Gordon Brown
:24:23. > :24:28.insisting that there were no briefings, his relationships were
:24:28. > :24:32.all sweet and light. And yet, people were saying, really? Murdoch
:24:32. > :24:35.asked John Major to switch his policy on Europe. Tom you worked in
:24:35. > :24:37.Downing Street when Gordon Brown was there? I didn't do press
:24:37. > :24:44.briefings. The interesting thing for me is every Prime Minister that
:24:44. > :24:47.has been in front of Leveson has denied what, Tony Blair, Alastair
:24:47. > :24:53.Campbell, Gordon Brown denied Damian McBride, David Cameron
:24:53. > :24:57.denied Andy Coulson. They are all at it, then? They should know what
:24:57. > :25:01.their spin doctors are doing in their name. It is pretty
:25:01. > :25:07.inreceivable that they don't? is for them to -- Inconceivable
:25:07. > :25:09.that they don't? That is for them to say, but it is pretty
:25:09. > :25:13.inconceivable. The Chancellor and the governor of the Bank of England
:25:13. > :25:17.announced today they were working together today on an �80 billion
:25:17. > :25:20.pot for lending. Speaking at the Mansion House event, they plan to
:25:21. > :25:25.kick start lending to households and businesses within weeks,
:25:25. > :25:28.through an emergency bank funding scheme. Under the proposal British
:25:28. > :25:32.banks will be offered vital funding at low interest rates, but the
:25:32. > :25:36.money will be linked to bank lending performance. The governor
:25:36. > :25:40.and I will take co-ordinated action on liquidity and funding for new
:25:40. > :25:43.bank lending, in order to inject new confidence into our financial
:25:43. > :25:47.system. And support the flow of credit into where it is needed in
:25:47. > :25:52.the real economy. We are not powerless in the face of the
:25:52. > :26:00.eurozone debt storm. Together we can deploy new fire power to defend
:26:00. > :26:03.our economy from the crisis on our doorstep.
:26:03. > :26:08.We have Allegra Stratton and our Economics Editor with us, Paul
:26:08. > :26:13.Mason, what do you think of it? What is the thinking behind this?
:26:13. > :26:17.One newspaper tomorrow is saying Mervyn King is pressing the panic
:26:17. > :26:21.button. It is not quite that. But people in Government are scared of
:26:21. > :26:24.the effects of Sunday's election in Greece and what it could do to the
:26:24. > :26:27.eurozone and how it would affect our economy, because 40% of our
:26:27. > :26:30.trade is with the continent. It has already had problems. They are
:26:30. > :26:33.announcing tonight a new way of getting money directly out. They
:26:34. > :26:37.had reports for a long time now that small businesses weren't
:26:37. > :26:40.getting lending. Equally mortgages were not passing on the low rates
:26:40. > :26:44.to people. It is an attempt to get it on the treat. If quanative
:26:44. > :26:47.easing was about the same initials of the Queen of England, I would
:26:47. > :26:51.like to think this is the Prince William version. It is much more
:26:51. > :26:55.and they are trying to get it out on to the streets to make it more
:26:55. > :26:58.modern. If it hadn't been for Sunday's elections, all those
:26:58. > :27:03.people, small business, and people with mortgages, would have been
:27:03. > :27:08.banging on for months and not getting results? I think these
:27:08. > :27:12.things were in train, this is a summer of great announcements,
:27:12. > :27:15.somebody said there would be four, it is all the same principle, how
:27:15. > :27:19.do you get much more activity out on to the streets. At the moment it
:27:19. > :27:27.is hogged in the bank and out in the weird computerised money, not
:27:27. > :27:30.thriel in people's pockets. Also, there is a sense -- in people's
:27:30. > :27:34.pockets. Also there is a sense they have to knock each other's heads
:27:35. > :27:40.together and get on with it. We are joined by Paul, filming in Athens.
:27:40. > :27:43.Do you think this will work? Chancellor is doing two things
:27:43. > :27:48.today, and Mervyn King together with him. The first thing is to
:27:48. > :27:52.pump ready cash into the banking system. �5 billion a month, �30
:27:52. > :27:55.billion over six months. That is the equivalent of inflating an air
:27:56. > :27:59.bag in car before the crash happens. We know what the crash will be,
:27:59. > :28:03.here in Athens, whoever wins the election, nobody thinks Greece can
:28:03. > :28:06.do what it is supposed to do under the bail out. The eurozone is
:28:07. > :28:10.facing a pretty decisive moment pretty soon. That is what that is
:28:10. > :28:14.for. The other thing, the bank printing money and lending it to
:28:14. > :28:18.banks so, the banks can swap their bad detects for some good money,
:28:18. > :28:22.and then lend some more. That is what is talked about. That is there
:28:22. > :28:26.to solve a different problem. That problem is the existing policy is
:28:26. > :28:29.not working. The Project Merlin, supposed to get banks lending to
:28:29. > :28:32.small businesses and lending mortgages, is clearly not doing
:28:32. > :28:36.enough for the Chancellor. The other thing this policy is supposed
:28:36. > :28:41.to do, is fill the gap that fiscal policy can't. Obviously the
:28:41. > :28:45.Government is terrified of one thing, that is that we get dragged
:28:45. > :28:48.into this whirlpool of downgrades and counter downgrades that the
:28:48. > :28:53.rest of Europe is undergoing. It is the last moment when the Government
:28:53. > :28:57.thinks it can move on tax and spend. It has to get Mervyn King to move
:28:57. > :29:02.on printing money and doing something creative with it. The
:29:02. > :29:06.problem is, though it doesn't affect Britain's triple-A rating t
:29:06. > :29:12.says that the Bank of England is strong enough to say a bit of risky
:29:12. > :29:19.lending with its own money. That is a kind of unknown ter treatment we
:29:19. > :29:22.wouldn't be in it unless we were expect -- territory, we wouldn't be
:29:22. > :29:26.in it unless we are expecting dire events from Europe. This money is
:29:26. > :29:31.getting out there fast? You say, that there is no detail to the plan.
:29:31. > :29:35.On the bigger scheme, the �80 billion is what they are talking
:29:35. > :29:39.about. The liquidity they can get out fast. The �80 billion to
:29:39. > :29:42.restart bank lend to go small businesses and households, we have
:29:42. > :29:46.-- lending to small businesss and households, we have to see the
:29:46. > :29:56.detail. The Treasury couldn't explain tonight how the money would
:29:56. > :30:01.be swamped from the banks to banks. Is this an admission that Project
:30:01. > :30:05.Merlin has failed? This is pulling out all the stops on Plan A. This
:30:05. > :30:09.is using the hard-won fiscal authority, to get money through to
:30:09. > :30:13.businesses that we needed. That is the suggestion, that you hadn't
:30:13. > :30:15.been pulling out the stops up until now? The economic environment is
:30:15. > :30:19.deteriorating around the globe. We are facing more instability in
:30:19. > :30:24.Greece, we have to work harder at Plan A. But we have the chance to
:30:24. > :30:27.do that now. This wasn't in Plan A. Isn't that the point, you are
:30:27. > :30:31.stretching Plan A, just so you can't call it Plan B? We can
:30:31. > :30:35.stretch it because of the hard-won fiscal credibility. For two years
:30:35. > :30:40.we built it up. We have a stronger balance sheet, now we can deploy
:30:40. > :30:43.that to help the banks get more money through. The other thing had
:30:43. > :30:47.a has changed is the banks are finding it more expensive to borrow
:30:47. > :30:51.on the international market, at the same time they have to stack more
:30:51. > :30:55.capital up for regulatory purposes. The money isn't getting through to
:30:55. > :31:00.home owners who need it and businesses. Paul Mason said it
:31:00. > :31:03.wouldn't affect Britain's credit rating, but does it reveal tonight
:31:03. > :31:07.how worried George Osborne and the governor of the Bank of England,
:31:07. > :31:12.Mervyn King, are? It is an understanding that the economic
:31:12. > :31:14.outlook is deteriorating for this country. We trade enormously with
:31:14. > :31:17.the eurozone. There is more instability there. We have to do
:31:17. > :31:21.everything we can to keep Britain safe through the storm. That means
:31:21. > :31:25.making sure that businesses can get the money they need, not just small
:31:25. > :31:28.businesses, but all businesses, and home owners can get the mortgages
:31:28. > :31:33.they need. How long will you give it before you decide it works or
:31:33. > :31:39.not? The scheme is decided to be up and run anything few weeks. If it
:31:39. > :31:43.increases the stock of running in a few weeks. It increases the stock
:31:43. > :31:49.of lending and if we can get it running this year it should make a
:31:49. > :31:57.difference. Today Paul ventured far from Athens to a village to see
:31:57. > :32:04.what hopes Tierney have -- tis it is have of picking up the --
:32:04. > :32:10.Ahtisaari to see what they have -- For this man the decisions are
:32:10. > :32:16.usually measured in kilos. Kilos of hey, which is expensive, kilos of
:32:16. > :32:25.beef which he rears, but finds hard to sell. This is deep Greece. The
:32:25. > :32:30.mountains of this. Essili, a Greece res nant with the past, and from
:32:30. > :32:35.from which the parties draw their history. Something is happening in
:32:35. > :32:38.the small squares, deep discontent. TRANSLATION: People are desperate,
:32:38. > :32:43.they can't take it any more. We think Tsipras can do things
:32:43. > :32:52.differently let's see what he has to offer. He's never been in power
:32:52. > :32:57.before. TRANSLATION: We are a generation that should be peaking
:32:57. > :33:00.now, if I had known this would happen I would never have gotten
:33:00. > :33:04.married, I'm very worried about them. Most of the young farmers I
:33:04. > :33:08.spoke to in this village said they would spoke for the far left party
:33:08. > :33:11.Tsipras, but more out of desperation than conviction.
:33:12. > :33:18.TRANSLATION: Greece could be out of the euro, which we don't want. But
:33:18. > :33:23.we have to vote for him, because in the last 20 years of PASOK and New
:33:23. > :33:28.Democracy, we saw nothing good. Now let's see what happens.
:33:28. > :33:32.Now, hi no idea they were going to say that. In fact, I came here
:33:32. > :33:36.thinking they would say the exact opposite. But when a party of
:33:36. > :33:40.Marxists, radical greens and feminists, is getting votes from
:33:40. > :33:49.farmers, through hours into the mountains, away from Athens,
:33:49. > :33:52.something is going on. Tsipras's rise has been spectacular,
:33:52. > :34:02.a coalition of the radical left, they never scored more than 5%
:34:02. > :34:02.
:34:03. > :34:07.until the crisis. In the may election they scored 17%,
:34:07. > :34:12.and this man, Alexis Tsipras, came the figure head to resistance to
:34:12. > :34:19.austerity. Now they are polling as high as 27%. And within a few
:34:20. > :34:24.percentage points of power. But what would a Syriza Government
:34:24. > :34:28.do? In the first place rip up the bail out deal agreed in March and
:34:28. > :34:31.then says the party's economics expert, tax the rich. For the next
:34:31. > :34:35.four years we want to introduce measures to increase public
:34:35. > :34:42.receipts by 1% a year at least. Raising taxes? Raising taxes.
:34:42. > :34:46.all income tax? It will be income taxes, wealth taxes. It will be
:34:46. > :34:51.taxes on, I don't know, even the church, this Channel Tunnel doesn't
:34:51. > :34:56.pay. What is the Greek word for "goodbye ", as the rich and middle-
:34:56. > :35:00.class leave the one? Well. there is only one answer to capital
:35:00. > :35:03.flight and it is taboo? Capital controls. Would you introduce
:35:03. > :35:09.capital controls to prevent capital flight? You need to introduce
:35:09. > :35:13.capital controls, and all kinds of measures to stop these, the
:35:13. > :35:17.reaction. But capital controls in the eurozone are only legal for
:35:17. > :35:23.security reasons. The Greek left is well aware that would prompt a
:35:23. > :35:29.clash with the euro authorities? we are push today the precipice, we
:35:29. > :35:33.will have to default. If you default you will be forced out of
:35:33. > :35:39.the eurozone? Is it better to default under a left-wing or right
:35:39. > :35:46.left-wing Government. We have Once Seen a Government of Marxist eco
:35:46. > :35:51.radical feminists in the eurozone? To put your mind at rest, we are
:35:51. > :35:57.mild in those things. We are for peaceful change.
:35:57. > :36:01.Greek political commentators believe the Syriza vote is not just
:36:01. > :36:05.left-wing voters moving further left, it is something more
:36:05. > :36:10.emotional. The young people are turning massively towards Syriza,
:36:10. > :36:15.older ones like me tend to go with old parties. But it is people
:36:15. > :36:21.feeling desperate as things evolve in Greece. It is a vote of grief,
:36:21. > :36:26.rather than a vote of anger. People feel helpless, they feel
:36:26. > :36:31.abandoned. So they feel that somebody has stood up for them.
:36:31. > :36:35.This somebody is Syriza. nowhere is that clearer than in the
:36:35. > :36:40.mountains and the villages that many urban Greek also return to
:36:40. > :36:44.this weekend, to cast their votes. It was the small businessmen who
:36:44. > :36:49.formed the backbone of the old political system. Many of them,
:36:49. > :36:55.like this man, feel they have been ruined by the bail out programme,
:36:55. > :37:00.and they despair of politics. will vote more just to say
:37:00. > :37:08.something, for example I will vote Syriza just to say that I don't
:37:08. > :37:13.want these measures any more. This is not working. We need to grow our
:37:13. > :37:18.economy. But you don't believe in the party itself? No, no, no, no.
:37:18. > :37:23.And private polls indicate that Greeks going to this election with
:37:23. > :37:26.a tight margin, between the mainstream and Marxism.
:37:26. > :37:30.We apologise for the technical problems with that film.
:37:30. > :37:34.Gordon Brown, George Osborne, John Major, Ed Miliband, Nick Clegg,
:37:34. > :37:40.Alex Salmond, and today, David Cameron, all got a grilling at the
:37:40. > :37:46.Leveson Inquiry this week. But was it a grilling or a light steam. Our
:37:46. > :37:49.panel are here to give their verdicts. Danny Finkelstein, Sally
:37:50. > :37:52.Morgan, former righthand woman at Downing Streeting, and Miranda
:37:52. > :37:56.Green, one time adviser to the Liberal Democrats. What do you
:37:56. > :38:01.think we learned about David Cameron today, apart from the fact
:38:01. > :38:04.that he's your mate! First of all, prais prime ministers having to
:38:04. > :38:08.answer questions under oath at the Royal Courts of Justice is not
:38:08. > :38:13.great look. The whole thing has been an ordeal for the incumbent
:38:13. > :38:18.party, and more of an ordeal than they thought about when they set it
:38:18. > :38:24.up. The first part of the inquiry which learned a lot about press
:38:24. > :38:27.ethics, that will help in the future. The next section has been
:38:27. > :38:31.less successful, embarrassing for the Government, the texts have been
:38:31. > :38:34.embarrassing. They went after the idea that there was a big
:38:34. > :38:37.conspiracy and didn't prove it, they wasted a lot of time with that.
:38:37. > :38:42.That is disappointing. The public, which has never been that engaged
:38:42. > :38:46.with this part of it, has now become much less engaged with it. I
:38:46. > :38:49.suspect the political consequences of the prime ministers' performance
:38:49. > :38:54.-- the Prime Minister's performance, not what you want, it makes them
:38:54. > :38:58.look out of control, will not be that great, because public interest
:38:58. > :39:02.has waneed. The idea at the beginning of the inquiry that
:39:02. > :39:05.people felt passionate about, now not so much. Did you learn
:39:05. > :39:11.something about David Cameron, how he handled himself today? I thought
:39:11. > :39:15.he handled himself well, he looked uncomfortable at times, as you
:39:15. > :39:22.would expect. It is not great listening to testimony like. That
:39:22. > :39:25.it was excruciating, wasn't it. I suppose what I think Is the sort of
:39:25. > :39:30.damaging smell, or taste that is left at the end of today, really,
:39:30. > :39:34.there was nothing killing there. It was just this added perception of
:39:34. > :39:38.this kind of clique, living a life. It adds to the feeling that they
:39:38. > :39:43.are very separate from the rest of us. That is the problem, I think.
:39:43. > :39:47.The thing was, the text, as has been said several times, was from
:39:47. > :39:52.Rebekah Brooks to David Cameron, not the other way round. It
:39:52. > :39:56.suggested a close relationship, and the language of the text was all
:39:57. > :40:01.about that. Was she quite close to him at the time? I mean I couldn't
:40:01. > :40:06.tell you, but it certainly does, as Sally said, leave this idea,
:40:06. > :40:09.amongst the general public, that there is a cosiness, a media and
:40:09. > :40:12.political elite, it is all terribly chummy, and what is the fate of the
:40:12. > :40:16.rest of the population. It leaves the rest of the population out?
:40:16. > :40:19.important thing to note is they started with that view. I don't
:40:19. > :40:26.think it will have changed much. You don't want it to reinforce that
:40:26. > :40:30.view, do you? No, and I think David Cameron hoped during expenses to
:40:30. > :40:36.separate himself from that view. It is about the whole of the political
:40:36. > :40:39.class. The party political damage, I expect Tom Watson hopes he has
:40:39. > :40:44.induced, more that it has damaged David Cameron's relationship with
:40:44. > :40:48.the rest of the press rather than causing the Tories' problems.
:40:48. > :40:52.largely agree with that, I think the public have switched off and it
:40:52. > :40:55.has done nothing for politics or media. But I do think it is
:40:55. > :40:58.particularly damaging for David Cameron, at the moment. It just
:40:58. > :41:02.adds to that general view of, not just that politicians are different,
:41:02. > :41:07.but that this group are not suffering like the rest of us. They
:41:07. > :41:11.are living a different sort of life. You, from your own background know
:41:11. > :41:14.exactly what happens when things get out of control. It looks to me
:41:14. > :41:18.that Leveson setting the agenda, not the politicians, that can't be
:41:18. > :41:22.good for any of the parties. Let's take Gordon Brown's performance,
:41:22. > :41:29.Gordon Brown looked as if butter wouldn't melt in his mouth. I mean,
:41:29. > :41:33.how did that happen? There was no challenge to that, of course?
:41:33. > :41:37.challenge during the inquiry. really? They let it run. I thought
:41:37. > :41:44.there were two parts of Gordon, there was the section where he was
:41:44. > :41:49.talking about his son. And I think in a sense, there would be a level
:41:49. > :41:52.of sympathy from people listening to 0 that. And there was -- to that.
:41:52. > :41:57.And then there was the briefing and the spinning, you could ask six
:41:57. > :42:01.questions, if you were going to get the answer Gordon gave, why ask it
:42:01. > :42:04.six times. My point of view is it wouldn't convince anybody. With the
:42:05. > :42:11.Liberal Democrats, they have been in parade, looking back, Nick Clegg
:42:11. > :42:16.actually came out of it quite well? I think Nick Clegg is much better
:42:16. > :42:26.talking like a normal person. Funnily enough he returned a bit to
:42:26. > :42:30.the Nick Clegg USP that he has lost so disastrously in Government. He
:42:30. > :42:36.was charming, self-deprecating humour worked very well on TV, and
:42:36. > :42:40.a bonding moment with Brian Leveson. It is true,'s good at that.
:42:40. > :42:47.managed to distance himself, that crack of being at the children's
:42:47. > :42:50.end of the table, was an effective way of saying he's not part of the
:42:50. > :42:53.circle. Is it that the Liberal Democrats don't matter? The thing
:42:53. > :42:58.to remember is people aren't watching. I spent a total of eight
:42:58. > :43:03.days watching the Leveson. But that is because I do that for a living.
:43:03. > :43:06.Other people, they went to work. They didn't watch the inquiry.
:43:06. > :43:11.is the point. You said earlier on that there may well be proposals
:43:11. > :43:14.out of that, and they will have arisen from the early part of the
:43:14. > :43:20.inquiry. The problem is, for the public, this is making politicians,
:43:20. > :43:24.and the press, so far removed from them? The early part of the Leveson
:43:24. > :43:29.Inquiry was gripping and moving. And any journalist would have to
:43:29. > :43:33.lock at it and think, beyond what I even thought, this make as case for
:43:33. > :43:37.having some form of redress, and changing the way the press behave.
:43:37. > :43:40.I think this part of the Leveson Inquiry, particularly after a while
:43:40. > :43:43.beginning to repeat itself, was much less effective and has lost a
:43:43. > :43:45.lot of public interest. The public thought they already knew that
:43:45. > :43:49.journalists and politicians were living separate lives from them,
:43:49. > :43:53.that is how they feel about them. I don't think it has changed that an
:43:53. > :44:00.awful lot. I think it will have forced a change in behaviour.
:44:00. > :44:04.it? To deal with the whole aftermath of Hutton, how did you
:44:04. > :44:08.get things back on track and they didn't stay on track that long?
:44:08. > :44:13.Hutton, I was saying to Danny, beforehand, looking at it, you
:44:13. > :44:18.think, oh no, you set an inquiry up, and it takes over. No matter how
:44:18. > :44:23.stietly you have set up the framework for an inquiry. Once you
:44:23. > :44:26.set it up? It runs itself. can't interfere? It consumes vast
:44:26. > :44:29.hours and days and weeks of activity in the centre. When you
:44:29. > :44:34.look at what else is happening in the country at the moment. How do
:44:34. > :44:37.you get back, you have to weight until Leveson finshes? There will
:44:37. > :44:42.be pause in the summer, they will wait until he finshes and they will
:44:42. > :44:46.need to respond to his propoetsals quickly. Do you -- Proposals
:44:46. > :44:51.quickly. Do you think that is the way to knock it on the head, to
:44:51. > :44:56.respond quickly? An interesting difference emerged between Ed
:44:56. > :44:59.Miliband, Nick Clegg and David Cameron. David Cameron was much
:44:59. > :45:05.less on statutory underpinning, clearly the Conservative instinct
:45:05. > :45:09.is different. There will be a genuine debate about what to do.
:45:09. > :45:13.The Times has been very against statutory underpinning, other
:45:13. > :45:16.moneys are more favourable. There is an appetite for change, it is
:45:16. > :45:19.interesting, John Major's evidence was fascinating this week. Tony
:45:19. > :45:27.Blair appealing for the current Prime Minister to act in the way
:45:27. > :45:34.that he never did. I think there is a moment hire that must be seized.
:45:34. > :45:37.If it -- Here that must be seized. If it isn't seized, public will be
:45:37. > :45:41.doubly disengaged, thinking it is all a waste of time? There are
:45:41. > :45:47.other things going on. We are in the middle two of massive threats,
:45:47. > :45:54.the eurozone, Syria. One of the terrible things this week is we had
:45:54. > :45:59.Leveson and PMQs this week where nobody asked anything about Syria
:45:59. > :46:02.or Europe. The issues that relate to real people at the hands of the
:46:02. > :46:05.press, people are interested. The Government have to do something
:46:05. > :46:09.about it. Do you think whatever happens it withers the relationship
:46:09. > :46:12.between the politicians and the press? In the newspapers, a lot of
:46:12. > :46:16.the consequence is the Tory press has turned on the Tory Party, that
:46:16. > :46:21.is one of the consequences. It will all change soon. Tomorrow morning's
:46:21. > :46:26.front pages. Thank you all very much.
:46:26. > :46:31.�140 billion to kick start the economy. The Independent has the