:00:12. > :00:19.Tonight, Aung San Suu Kyi in Britain, after more than 20 years,
:00:19. > :00:22.speaks to Newsnight, and for the first time, says that if the people
:00:22. > :00:27.desire it, she will lead her country. If I can lead them in the
:00:27. > :00:32.right way, yes. She tells us of the sacrifice her family made.
:00:32. > :00:38.family made a lot of sacrifices, in order to help me to do what I
:00:38. > :00:42.thought, and I believe, that I should do. The victory, in some
:00:42. > :00:46.ways, is in the endeavour. Also tonight, it emerges that some
:00:46. > :00:50.doctors who strike on Thursday over pension reforms, will still pick up
:00:50. > :00:53.their day's pay. But this man, who just stepped down as David
:00:53. > :00:58.Cameron's key adviser on public service reform says the Government
:00:58. > :01:04.needs to go further and faster. Julian Assange is tonight holed up
:01:04. > :01:10.in the Ecuadorian embassy in London, trying to avoid extradition in to
:01:10. > :01:15.Sweden, where he's wanted for alleged sex crimes. We're there.
:01:15. > :01:20.Julian Assange is in the building behind me tonight, he's grateful to
:01:20. > :01:23.the Ecuadorian ambassador for assistance, but we don't know if
:01:23. > :01:27.his attempt to avoid extradition will succeed. The crisis was not
:01:27. > :01:32.originated in Europe, since you mentioned in North America, this
:01:32. > :01:37.cry sifs originated in North America. As the G20 leaders go
:01:37. > :01:43.their separate way, has the summit exposed the weakness of the project,
:01:43. > :01:46.as emerging powers refuse to dip in our coverers to help the eurozone.
:01:46. > :01:51.The Russian oligarch will be here, and the Russian Prime Minister.
:01:51. > :01:54.In the last few moments, the death of former Egyptian President, Hosni
:01:54. > :02:03.Mubarak, will be announced by state media, we will have more as it
:02:03. > :02:08.comes? Good evening, Kyi keys return to
:02:08. > :02:13.the country, where she matter yod - - Aung San Suu Kyi's return to the
:02:13. > :02:17.country where she married and had her children has been a long time
:02:17. > :02:22.coming. Her emergance after long years of house arrest in Rangoon,
:02:22. > :02:27.as the country took tentative steps towards reform, has catapulted Aung
:02:27. > :02:31.San Suu Kyi on to the world stage. An icon for the campaign for
:02:31. > :02:36.Burmese democracy, she's also a politician in a, so far,
:02:36. > :02:44.undemocratic parliament, in a country riven with ethnic disputes.
:02:44. > :02:49.I spoke to her this morning. First an assessment of the battles ahead.
:02:49. > :02:53.# Happy birthday to you Warm wishes from students on her
:02:54. > :02:57.67th birth day, on the presentation of what is becoming a tradition at
:02:57. > :03:02.the London School of Economics, the baseball cap. One was presented to
:03:02. > :03:06.Nelson Mandela when he visited ten years a and Aung San Suu Kyi is now
:03:06. > :03:10.in the same league.Today the woman who has been in and out of house
:03:10. > :03:14.arrest for over 20 years, is now, at last, acknowledged as the leader
:03:14. > :03:23.of the opposition in the Burmese parliament. But, she reminded her
:03:23. > :03:30.audience, there is still a lot to be done.
:03:30. > :03:33.Unless we attend -- amend the constitution to take into account
:03:33. > :03:36.the aspirations of all the people in our country, we will never be
:03:36. > :03:41.able to bring about the kind of unity and peace we all desire. It
:03:41. > :03:46.always comes down to rule of law. Under the current constitution a
:03:46. > :03:50.quarter of the 600 seats in parliament are reserved for the
:03:50. > :03:53.military, and most other members support the Government. Aung San
:03:53. > :03:58.Suu Kyi finally entered parliament, after her party, the National
:03:58. > :04:03.League for Democracy, won 43 seats in by-elections in April. With a
:04:03. > :04:05.small minority, what can she done? They have around 6-7% of seats in
:04:05. > :04:09.the parliament. They are reaching out to other parties in the
:04:09. > :04:13.parliament as well. Really, their best hope, their strategy is to try
:04:13. > :04:17.to reach out to the military and persuade them of the need for
:04:17. > :04:23.further democratic reform, and eventually constitutional reform as
:04:23. > :04:26.well. In addition to demands for political reform, the Government is
:04:26. > :04:31.involved in fighting with rebel armies along the country's eastern
:04:31. > :04:36.borders. I visited the area earlier this
:04:36. > :04:39.year, and found hunger and despair among some 50,000 refugees who fled
:04:39. > :04:45.Government troops, with aid agencies claiming that they are not
:04:45. > :04:48.allowed to bring in supplies. Some leaders told me that they were
:04:48. > :04:52.disappointed that Aung San Suu Kyi hadn't spoken out about their might.
:04:52. > :04:56.Indeed, people are generally surprised that she hasn't said more
:04:56. > :04:59.about the on going ethnic conflict, which have the capacity to tear the
:04:59. > :05:02.country apart. She has been strangely quiet about a new
:05:02. > :05:07.emergency, which has recently broken out to the North West of
:05:08. > :05:11.Burma. There have been bloody race riots
:05:11. > :05:14.between Buddhists and Muslims living on the border with
:05:14. > :05:18.Bangladesh. The World Food Programme reported today that
:05:18. > :05:21.90,000 displaced people are in urgent need of aid. In the past
:05:21. > :05:24.year you have actually had an increase in human rights abuses
:05:24. > :05:28.taking place against the ethnic minorities in Burma. This is still
:05:28. > :05:31.a very critical situation there. The central Government has reached
:05:31. > :05:36.out and signed several ceasefires with the armed ethnic political
:05:36. > :05:41.groups, but so far is refusing to go for the next step, and enter
:05:41. > :05:45.into real deep political dialogue to address the root causes of the
:05:46. > :05:50.problems. There has been huge personal
:05:50. > :05:54.sacrifice for Aung San Suu Kyi. In 1991, her Nobel Peace Prize was
:05:54. > :05:58.collected by her husband and her sons. She refused to leave Burma,
:05:58. > :06:04.knowing that the military authorities would never let her
:06:04. > :06:12.return. Eight years later her husband, the Tibetan scolar,
:06:12. > :06:16.Michael Aris, died, she hadn't seen him for four years.
:06:16. > :06:20.She has always argued that her suffering, under house arrest, was
:06:20. > :06:26.nothing to others in her party, who have spent decades in jail. In
:06:26. > :06:31.Rangoon a few weeks ago, I met with the wife of a political prisoner.
:06:31. > :06:35.The National League for Democracy claim there are still up to 600
:06:35. > :06:39.political prisoners in Burma today. No wonder some criticise Aung San
:06:39. > :06:43.Suu Kyi for agreeing to work w and to trust the country's President,
:06:43. > :06:48.General Thein Sein. The cynics would argue that the
:06:48. > :06:51.generals have got Aung San Suu Kyi exactly where they want her, in a
:06:52. > :06:55.parliament dominated bit army, where she scarcely has a voice.
:06:55. > :06:58.Meanwhile they are being congratulated for bringing her into
:06:58. > :07:02.the fold. Sanctions on Burma have been suspended, and businesses are
:07:02. > :07:06.queuing up to get in there. In recent speeches, she has told
:07:06. > :07:11.international companies not to be too quick to invest in Burma,
:07:11. > :07:15.before they can be sure that the Road Map towards rule -- road map
:07:15. > :07:19.towards truly democratic elections in 2015, is being followed. These
:07:19. > :07:24.days I'm coming aloss a lot of what I would call reckless optimisim,
:07:24. > :07:33.that is not going to help you or us. As she herself has warned,
:07:33. > :07:37.everything is reversible, and the next two years will be crucial.
:07:37. > :07:41.I met Kyi earlier today for her first television -- Aung San Suu
:07:41. > :07:44.Kyi earlier today for her first television since arriving back in
:07:44. > :07:49.the UK. Recently you said the important time for democracy in
:07:49. > :07:53.Burma is now, and you need to work now to ensure 2015 is what you want
:07:53. > :07:58.it to be, what exactly needs to happen, what are your priorities?
:07:58. > :08:03.First of all, we have to make sure there are new players on the scene.
:08:03. > :08:07.This is all about inclusiveness, democracy is about inclusiveness.
:08:07. > :08:10.Previously when there was a military deck Tateorship, only
:08:10. > :08:13.those connected to the military dictatorship were allowed to take
:08:13. > :08:17.part in the Government of the country, and the political process.
:08:17. > :08:21.Even in the economic scene, it was they who would dominant. We need
:08:21. > :08:25.new players coming in. What about a constitutional reform, at first,
:08:25. > :08:30.for the NLD, they argued it was undemocratic to have 25% of the
:08:30. > :08:37.seats in parliament for the army. Presumably that is one of your
:08:38. > :08:42.earliest priorities, to change the constitution. Quite recently the
:08:42. > :08:47.defence minister said at a conference in Singapore that the
:08:47. > :08:51.military had no intention of hanging on to the 25% forever. And
:08:52. > :08:56.when the time was right they would decrease their part in the role in
:08:56. > :09:02.parliament. That is not bad to begin with. This after we had said
:09:02. > :09:10.we wanted amendments to the constitution. Though they can still
:09:10. > :09:16.impose Martian law at will? This is where -- marshall law at will? This
:09:16. > :09:20.is why there needs to be an amendment. The NLD reckons there is
:09:20. > :09:26.up to 600 political prisoners, how quickly can you get them out?
:09:26. > :09:29.According to our list there are about 271 left, the others have
:09:29. > :09:33.been released. We have been in touch with the Ministry of Home
:09:33. > :09:41.affairs to find out what is happening about these other
:09:41. > :09:44.prisoners. I hear there is a move to release more prisoner, quite
:09:44. > :09:54.soon. Have you talked to Thein Sein about that? No, not in recent days,
:09:54. > :10:01.I have been in Europe, I wouldn't have been able to talk to him.
:10:01. > :10:07.said in your Nobel speech that absolute peace is unobtainable in
:10:07. > :10:11.our world, is that the same for Burma? It is internal and external
:10:11. > :10:14.peace, that is absolute peace, we can have peace in our country, and
:10:14. > :10:19.achieve political and national peace, but absolute peace each one
:10:19. > :10:25.will have to work at for himself or herself. In terms of absolute peace,
:10:25. > :10:35.your father wanted autonomy in internal administration for a
:10:35. > :10:36.
:10:36. > :10:40.number of Burma's hot spots is that doable? If it is part aspirations
:10:40. > :10:45.of the ethnic minorities, this is the only way to have a true union.
:10:45. > :10:52.Do you think in a country of more than 100 ethnic groups that it can
:10:52. > :10:56.be a co-heent state, or Burma -- coherent state, or Burma will have
:10:56. > :11:02.this peace? Over the years of trouble we have experienced how
:11:02. > :11:07.strong the unity between the ethnic nationalties can be, because our
:11:07. > :11:11.best and most reliable allies were the ethnic nationality parties. I
:11:11. > :11:15.think this is possible. I know from my own experience that this is
:11:15. > :11:18.possible. You are in a very different place
:11:18. > :11:21.politically now, is there a danger though, that you have been, in a
:11:21. > :11:26.way, a victim of a confidence trick that the Government has you where
:11:26. > :11:30.it wants you, and it has got what it wanted? Where has it got me?
:11:31. > :11:34.has got what it wanted in terms of the lifting, the immediate lifting
:11:34. > :11:38.of EU sanctions, and American sanctions? The suspension of
:11:38. > :11:41.sanctions, which is not the same as the lifting of sanctions. But it
:11:41. > :11:44.was not gradual, it was there, they have been suspended for a year. Is
:11:44. > :11:49.that what you talked about, the reckless optimisim? No, I was
:11:49. > :11:54.talking more in terms of investors bumming into Burma and not thinking
:11:54. > :12:00.about the consequence -- Burma -- coming into Burma and not thinking
:12:00. > :12:04.about the consequences for people there. For too long the Government
:12:04. > :12:07.has blamed sanctions for the mess the economy was in, and now they
:12:07. > :12:11.will have to prove that without sanctions they can really do
:12:11. > :12:16.something for the economy. And then the second reason is that I think
:12:16. > :12:20.we need to look for to our own resources, the internal resources
:12:20. > :12:24.of the country to bring about change, than to depend too much on
:12:24. > :12:27.external factors. The concern is that Burma accommodated you,
:12:27. > :12:33.because economically they wanted to open up the country. Now you have
:12:33. > :12:36.gimp them the key and the flood gates are open, Coca-Cola, WPP,
:12:36. > :12:41.General Electric, how will they help you get towards democracy?
:12:41. > :12:49.is not helping me, it is to help the people. That is why what I said
:12:49. > :12:54.we want democracy-friendly, human rights-friendly input into the
:12:54. > :12:59.country. If they are doing business with cronies, and those who will
:12:59. > :13:03.use their new economic powers to consolidate the grip of the
:13:03. > :13:07.Government, then I think we will have to expose them. I think we are
:13:07. > :13:11.in a position to do that in this world. But what power do you
:13:11. > :13:15.actually have now, what leverage do you have with this Government? If
:13:15. > :13:18.you have 50 million people who are now going to enjoy the fruits of a
:13:18. > :13:23.different kind of economy? Who is saying they are going to enjoy the
:13:23. > :13:27.fruits of a different kind of economy? This is exactly what I'm
:13:28. > :13:32.saying, if the new investment empowers the people, well and good.
:13:32. > :13:37.They will take care of getting democracy for themselves. If the
:13:37. > :13:40.new investment simply helps to make this Government, which is actually
:13:41. > :13:44.the heir of the previous military regime, stronger, that is not what
:13:44. > :13:48.they want, that is not what the people want either. Coca-Cola, are
:13:48. > :13:53.they really going to hold back? They are after their shareholders,
:13:53. > :13:59.aren't they? If they don't hold back, we can reach across to Coca-
:13:59. > :14:04.Cola customers all over the world. You remember what happened to
:14:04. > :14:08.PepsiCola it was not of anything done in Burma, but the threat of
:14:08. > :14:12.the students in American universities to boycott Pepsi that
:14:12. > :14:17.made them draw out. We have this access to the world that we have
:14:17. > :14:27.not had before W this access we can watch what the new investors are up
:14:27. > :14:29.
:14:29. > :14:32.Finally, Aung San Suu Kyi, you were treated with great cruelly n way.
:14:32. > :14:37.Your late husband wrote in 1991, that you always used to say that if
:14:37. > :14:41.your people ever needed you, you would not fail them. If this is as
:14:41. > :14:46.far as you said, if Burma doesn't get democracy, will your family
:14:46. > :14:50.sacrifice have been worth it? didn't sacrifice my family. I don't
:14:50. > :14:57.think of it that way. My family made a lot of sacrifices in order
:14:57. > :15:03.to help me to do what I thought and I believed that I should do. And
:15:03. > :15:06.the victory, in some ways, is in the endeavour. I'm not the only one
:15:06. > :15:10.working for democracy in Burma. There are so many people who have
:15:10. > :15:14.worked for it, because they believed that this is the only way
:15:14. > :15:18.in which we can maintain the dignity for our people, that they
:15:18. > :15:22.will continue. And I don't quite understand your question, I do not
:15:22. > :15:25.see why we should think that Burma will not achieve democracy simply
:15:25. > :15:31.because we have opened up the economy. Many countries have opened
:15:31. > :15:35.up the economy, and that has helped them to achieve democracy quicker.
:15:35. > :15:41.But, with elections in 2015, you always say it is not about you, it
:15:41. > :15:47.is about the Burmese people. Would you be prepared, and do you want to
:15:47. > :15:50.lead your people? If I can lead them in the right way, yes. Aung
:15:50. > :15:53.San Suu Kyi, thank you very much indeed.
:15:53. > :15:57.Not only will doctors strike on Thursday, for the first time in
:15:57. > :16:07.more than 40 years, some Healt Trusts have said they will be paid
:16:07. > :16:16.
:16:16. > :16:22.for the day for not treating patients. The man who was the
:16:22. > :16:28.adviser on health service reform until a fortnight ago, it is the
:16:28. > :16:32.wider changes or lack of them is the problem. Sean Worth, who has
:16:32. > :16:37.joined the Policy Exchange, says the Government has to reach far-
:16:37. > :16:44.reaching changes fast, rather than being seen to slash services, or
:16:44. > :16:51.lose the argument. This leaflet is coming through your
:16:51. > :16:54.letterbox one day soon. When Nye Bevan said he had to stuff
:16:55. > :16:58.doctors' mouths with gold, he at least thought it was in return for
:16:58. > :17:03.work. The NHS's creation story, saw doctors wrangle with politicians
:17:03. > :17:07.over their pay and benefits. Nearly 70 years on it is no less true, in
:17:07. > :17:10.fact, gold is begetting gold. On Thursday when GPs take industrial
:17:10. > :17:16.action on their pensions, the first in 40 years, some of their number
:17:16. > :17:21.will still get paid. The Government has reneged on a
:17:21. > :17:24.deal. In 2008 they renegotiated the NHS pension scheme, for the
:17:24. > :17:29.entirety of the NHS, and doctors were asked to put more money into
:17:29. > :17:33.the scheme, which we willingly did. We were prepared to pay our fair
:17:33. > :17:37.share. That agreement was torn up by the Government in 2011. They
:17:37. > :17:41.just simply said we are no longer feeling bound by. That they are now
:17:41. > :17:46.asking to us pay even more in our contributions. We just feel that is
:17:46. > :17:50.fundamentally unfair. Their critics say it is a far cry
:17:50. > :17:56.from the conditions of those doctors in the early NHS. Now a
:17:56. > :18:01.doctor, retiring at 65, will get a pension of �53,000, if they retire
:18:01. > :18:04.at 68, they get a pension of �68 though though because this is later
:18:05. > :18:10.than scheduled and they will have contributed more over their
:18:10. > :18:16.lifetimes, the doctors are taking industrial action.
:18:16. > :18:20.It was reported today that nine of the 50 Primary Care Trusts across
:18:20. > :18:24.England, will not dock doctors' pay. Some hospital also salaries for
:18:24. > :18:28.those taking part on Thursday, but nonetheless, some Tory MPs are very
:18:28. > :18:34.displeased. When I first qualified as a doctor, doctors were
:18:34. > :18:37.overworked and underpaid. I often used to do 100-hour weeks, that is
:18:37. > :18:45.unacceptable. Now in the UK we have some of the highest-paid doctors in
:18:45. > :18:49.the world. The average GP now earns �1 10,000, and a GP partner will
:18:49. > :18:54.receive �35,000 on top of that bonus. Under Government reforms we
:18:54. > :18:57.will see doctors retiring on a pension of �68,000, mass a massive
:18:57. > :19:00.pension by anybody's standards, working in the private or public
:19:00. > :19:06.sector. It is quite right the doctors are asked to pay a little
:19:06. > :19:10.more towards that pension. What seems to me completely unconable,
:19:10. > :19:15.is there is looked to look after patients, will harm patients by
:19:15. > :19:18.going out on strike. Tonight the Health Secretary has written to the
:19:18. > :19:22.BMA, warning them of the consequences of their actions.
:19:22. > :19:28.Those consequences are, that if the GPs don't accept the pension
:19:28. > :19:32.changes, it will be nurses who accept, up to �100 extra a week.
:19:32. > :19:35.The Government see it as a trial of strength, the Labour Government,
:19:35. > :19:43.they say, flunked the test over GP pay, this time, they can't afford
:19:43. > :19:46.to flunk the test, they say. The British Medical Association has ban
:19:46. > :19:49.effective organisation since Nye Bevan. They are powerful and
:19:49. > :19:52.effective, back in the days of Labour, that was an area of huge
:19:52. > :19:57.expansion, of spending on the National Health Service. It was
:19:57. > :20:05.much easier to give more generous pay offers in terms of pay and
:20:05. > :20:09.pensions. Now in we are in an era of contraction, it is much tougher
:20:09. > :20:13.in pay and pensions. There is a lot of anger around the health service
:20:13. > :20:17.reforms. Doctors are very much against those. It is a mixture of
:20:17. > :20:21.emotional anger about that, plus there may be some quid pro quo, we
:20:21. > :20:26.are going to operate on this unpopular reform, you have to pay
:20:26. > :20:31.us more generously to do that. Doctors believe they have been
:20:31. > :20:34.wronged. Not just that they are effective in campaigning against
:20:34. > :20:37.being wronged. At the moment the NHS pension scheme is running in
:20:37. > :20:43.excess. There are more people contributing than people taking out.
:20:43. > :20:46.There is actually a surplus each year of �2 billion. That money does
:20:46. > :20:51.not go back into the pension pot, that money goes to the Exchequer.
:20:51. > :20:57.It helps pay the tax bills for all of us. So at the moment, yes, the
:20:57. > :21:01.Government is benefiting very much from the NHS pension scheme.
:21:01. > :21:04.As the Government squares up to the doctors, today one of the Prime
:21:04. > :21:08.Minister's closest advisers, who left Government two weeks ago,
:21:08. > :21:17.issues a collateralian call for something like the spirit of Bevan.
:21:17. > :21:21.More reform of health services, not less. Sean Worth takes aim, he says
:21:21. > :21:26.the trade unions have greater funding than political parties. He
:21:26. > :21:36.singled out the doctors' lead he isers, he said they are -- leaders,
:21:36. > :21:37.
:21:37. > :21:40.he said they are not doctors, they are trade unions. In 1948 the
:21:40. > :21:44.British Medical Association was on the same side as the Tory Party,
:21:44. > :21:51.against reforms to healthcare, now they are ranged against each other,
:21:51. > :21:54.each telling the other, physician, heal thy self. With me first is
:21:54. > :22:01.Sean Worth, special adviser to David Cameron until last month, and
:22:01. > :22:06.working on health sector reform, he now works for the think-tank Policy
:22:06. > :22:09.Exchange. You worked closely trying to formulate these reforms, what is
:22:09. > :22:16.the problem? What I'm saying is currently we have a unique
:22:16. > :22:20.situation in the political cycle. We have a position where with
:22:20. > :22:28.necessity there has to be spending with restraint. Of course that
:22:28. > :22:32.affects public services. You reform them and get it better and get
:22:32. > :22:37.charities and new technology involved there. Or you have a
:22:37. > :22:42.programme that can be charicatured as just spending restraint. That is
:22:42. > :22:46.not positive enough. The biggest thing to me has been the fact that
:22:46. > :22:50.you can't seem to reform anything in this country without expending
:22:50. > :22:54.huge amounts of political capital, suicidal amounts almost, why is
:22:54. > :22:58.that? Why is that, is it because the Government's reform plan is
:22:58. > :23:03.simply not set out properly, it hasn't been worked on properly the
:23:03. > :23:06.tilt is always towards cuts rather than reform? Of course, your
:23:06. > :23:12.political opponents will use that charicature, but the big thing for
:23:12. > :23:18.me, having worked in Government and politics for many years has been
:23:18. > :23:22.the, when the nation is now coming together, at this very unique time,
:23:22. > :23:26.you have Government actually pushing through quite moderate
:23:26. > :23:30.reforms. Too moderate for you, do you think? Nobody's saying rip up
:23:30. > :23:33.the public sector, they are saying bring in charities, businesses,
:23:33. > :23:37.technology. The big issue is the trade unions, which have quite
:23:37. > :23:43.rightly always had a great role in this debate, have suddenly become,
:23:43. > :23:50.I think, a bit more perni,, they are crossing the line with with the
:23:50. > :23:53.propaganda they are putting out. While we can have a constructive
:23:53. > :23:57.debate around, in this very difficult time, how do we provide
:23:57. > :24:01.the best services for people, when there isn't the kind of money that
:24:01. > :24:04.has been ploughed into them in the past. How do we best do that. The
:24:04. > :24:07.problem is you are not getting anything constructive from the
:24:07. > :24:10.other side. Are you suggesting the Government is losing the argument
:24:10. > :24:16.on reform, because it is not, either presenting it properly, or
:24:16. > :24:22.it is not formulating it properly? You know, I personally worked in
:24:22. > :24:26.Government on this stuff. I didn't expect the huge volume of trade
:24:26. > :24:30.union campaign that you have to actually come up against. Do you
:24:30. > :24:33.think the Government really failed to anticipate the response? Look, I
:24:33. > :24:36.think, I don't think that anyone thought it would be easy. Tony
:24:36. > :24:41.Blair told us he had scars on his back from taking these guys on, and
:24:41. > :24:48.he was with the Labour Party. said had he scars on his back,
:24:48. > :24:50.surely the whole idea is to device a way in -- devise a way to promote
:24:50. > :24:56.reforms, produce better services and get the public on side. That is
:24:56. > :25:02.clearly what you think the Government has failed to do? Look,
:25:02. > :25:05.I 6 I -- I think you do burn political capital and you go fast
:25:05. > :25:10.and have to bring people but. The most important thing is to actually
:25:10. > :25:16.do it. We have a lot of ambition, currently, for bringing in those
:25:16. > :25:20.charities and businesses. The whole vision? Brilliant vision.
:25:20. > :25:24.Politically you come up against huegs opposition that isn't
:25:24. > :25:27.constructive. Everyone is in this together, we have an economy that
:25:27. > :25:32.needs to be put back on track. Thursday's strike by doctors will
:25:32. > :25:34.be an ideal example of how, they are talking about their own perks
:25:34. > :25:37.and interests, and we're all talking about how to get the
:25:37. > :25:41.economy back on track. Thank you very much indeed.
:25:41. > :25:44.Let's talk about that right now. To discuss it with Dr Hamish Meldrum,
:25:44. > :25:49.chair of the British Medical Association, which represents
:25:49. > :25:54.doctors, and is in favour of the strike. And Dr Sarah Wollaston,
:25:54. > :26:01.Conservative MP and member of the health select committee, who worked
:26:01. > :26:06.as a GP before entering parliament. Dr Meldrum, it is only the patients
:26:06. > :26:09.losing out on Thursday, but you are being paid? Doctors will be dealing
:26:09. > :26:15.with all urgent and emergency care and anybody who needs to be seen.
:26:15. > :26:19.They will not be working normally? That is true. Pick up on something
:26:19. > :26:23.that was said, -- picking up on something that was said, nobody is
:26:23. > :26:27.against reform, to put that to rest, we didn't need the huge structural
:26:27. > :26:31.reform that the NHS went through. That is not, it seems, what the
:26:31. > :26:35.doctors' main beef s the doctors' main beef seems to be, that they
:26:35. > :26:38.don't have enough money to fund their retirement? The reason I'm
:26:38. > :26:42.saying we are not against reform. We had a major reform of the NHS
:26:42. > :26:47.scheme only four years ago, in 2008, when doctors and nurses agreed to
:26:47. > :26:52.pay more, to work longer, and not only that, to make it sustainable,
:26:52. > :26:55.which taking the risk of any increase from the public sector
:26:55. > :27:03.purse, and freezing the public sector contributions to pension
:27:03. > :27:07.schemes. A very quick question, how does your, what would you say, go-
:27:07. > :27:11.slow going on Thursday, actually help patients? It doesn't help
:27:11. > :27:14.patients. I would apologise the impact on patients. Nobody wants
:27:14. > :27:18.that. I didn't go into medicine to do. That but when you are faced
:27:18. > :27:22.with a Government that doesn't really want to listen and negotiate,
:27:22. > :27:26.we have to represent the anger that is in the profession. It is not the
:27:26. > :27:31.BMA, in that sense, leading this. We balloted our members, over 50%
:27:31. > :27:35.of them responded, and of those who responded, over 70% wanted to take
:27:35. > :27:38.this action. Isn't the problem what you have, you are not getting the
:27:38. > :27:41.arguments across, you are actually banging up against the doctors, and
:27:41. > :27:46.it is possibly a fight that you won't win? I think we have to win
:27:46. > :27:49.this fight, as Sean says. There is no doubt doctors do a great job and
:27:49. > :27:52.they are very well paid. This isn't a dispute about knocking doctors.
:27:52. > :27:57.This is about having fairness here. I think it is plain wrong for
:27:57. > :28:02.doctors to go on strike, because it is going to feel like a strike if
:28:02. > :28:05.your operation is cancelled, let as face it, it is very wrong for
:28:05. > :28:10.doctors, who are very well paid, amongst the best paid in the public
:28:10. > :28:15.sector, to go on strike over their pensions. Doctors, I mean everybody
:28:15. > :28:18.said they had great pay rises in early 200, they were reasonable.
:28:18. > :28:21.Since then, we are in the third year of a pay freeze, we have
:28:21. > :28:24.already reformed the public sector, where we are paying more, and the
:28:25. > :28:33.Government is tearing up that scheme. Andrew Lansley is saying
:28:33. > :28:37.doctors are generally, in terms of actuarily, will be in retirement
:28:37. > :28:43.longer than they are working, everyone is taking a hit. If you
:28:43. > :28:49.get more, the nurses will get less? Nobody is saying we want more at
:28:49. > :28:53.the expense of the nurses, we have already taken the hit, we have
:28:53. > :28:57.moved the retirement age to 65, and pay more, and taken the hit in
:28:57. > :29:01.terms of any increase on the public purse. That was all dealt with in
:29:01. > :29:04.2008. You know a lot of doctors, if you were a doctor still wouldn't
:29:04. > :29:08.you be feeling the same? Nobody wants to pay more and work longer.
:29:09. > :29:12.That is the reality, the world has changed since 2008, everybody knows
:29:13. > :29:16.that, everybody else across the public sector is waking up to the
:29:16. > :29:21.reality of our pension situation. So doctors will be worse off than
:29:21. > :29:24.they would be under the plans for example in 2008? Let's put it in
:29:24. > :29:29.context. A doctor who is 40 now will be working for two extra years
:29:29. > :29:33.to get the same deal as they get now. A new doctor coming in at 24,
:29:33. > :29:37.this is in 2015, will have to work until they are 65. I don't think
:29:37. > :29:41.that's a bad deal. The doctor is going to have to be paying an awful
:29:41. > :29:43.lot for more that. They will have to be paying double of what the
:29:43. > :29:50.equivalent civil servant will be paying for the same pension, that
:29:50. > :29:54.is not fair. Just before we finish on this. Lots of surveys show, that
:29:54. > :29:58.if it comes to the public trusting people, at the moment they trust
:29:58. > :30:01.doctors, more than they trust politicians. So aren't you going to
:30:01. > :30:05.have to be very careful about this one? Indeed, I would say, having
:30:05. > :30:10.been both, I think the thing that you really notice when you change
:30:10. > :30:13.your letter from GP to MP, you notice how it feels to be on the
:30:13. > :30:16.more chilly end of public opinion. I think that doctors will really
:30:16. > :30:20.pay the price, if they lose the public's trust over this strike.
:30:20. > :30:23.Andrew Lansley says there is no budging on this pension, is that
:30:23. > :30:26.absolutely the last word? That is absolutely the last word. It has to
:30:26. > :30:29.be the last word. Thank you very much indeed, all of
:30:29. > :30:34.you. WikiLeaks founder, Julian Assange,
:30:34. > :30:37.is tonight sheltering in the Ecuadorian embassy in London, in an
:30:37. > :30:42.attempt to avoid extradition to Sweden were he faces allegations of
:30:42. > :30:46.rape and sexual assault, made by two former WikiLeaks's volunteers
:30:46. > :30:51.in 2010. The Ecuadorian Foreign Minister says his request for
:30:51. > :30:54.asylum is being considered, and if granted t would avoid the posthablt
:30:54. > :31:00.Sweden would accede to American demands that Assange would be
:31:00. > :31:05.shipped to the US to face the trial for the avalanche of WikiLeaks. I'm
:31:05. > :31:11.joined by Tim Whewell, outside the Ecuadorian embassy tonight. What is
:31:11. > :31:15.going on there tonight? Tonight, so far all we know is that Julian
:31:15. > :31:20.Assange has expressed his gratitude to the Ecuadorian ambassador for
:31:20. > :31:24.offering to help. But, of course, consultations are really only just
:31:24. > :31:29.beginning and will continue tomorrow about what to do. The
:31:29. > :31:35.background to this is the Supreme Court here, last week, said a final
:31:35. > :31:40.no to Assange's legal attempt to avoid extradition to Sweden were he
:31:40. > :31:43.faces charges of rape and sexual assault. Of course Assange has
:31:43. > :31:48.always denied those charges. But what he fears much more is if he
:31:48. > :31:52.goes to Sweden, it is then that he would be, there would be an attempt
:31:53. > :31:58.by the United States to extradite him to the United States, on much
:31:58. > :32:01.more serious charges of espionage, arising out of the WikiLeaks
:32:01. > :32:06.themselves. The understanding certainly in his camp, is the
:32:06. > :32:10.United States grand jury, in secret, has already indicted him on those
:32:10. > :32:19.charges. Why does he think the Ecuadorian embassy is a
:32:19. > :32:22.particularly good bet? Ecuador has a left-wing administration. It has
:32:22. > :32:26.had various disputes with the United States before. It is obvious
:32:26. > :32:30.there have been talks between the Assange camp and Ecuador. What
:32:30. > :32:34.Ecuador is saying, the Ecuadorian embassy is saying tonight it will
:32:34. > :32:40.consult with Britain, Sweden and the United States before deciding
:32:40. > :32:43.what to do. But my understanding is that what Julian Assange is most
:32:43. > :32:53.hoping for, is that Ecuador would act, if you like, diplomatically,
:32:53. > :32:56.as an honest broker, maybe as way of trying to persuade Sweden to
:32:56. > :33:00.reject any American extradition requests, if Assange did go to
:33:00. > :33:05.Sweden. This is very hypothetical, but it is still more likely than
:33:05. > :33:08.the even more unlikely event usual possibility that Assange could
:33:08. > :33:14.physically be smuggled out of this country under diplomatic cover to
:33:14. > :33:20.Ecuador. Here to talk about all of this is a
:33:20. > :33:24.former Lib Dem leader, Menzies Campbell. First of all, if this
:33:24. > :33:30.Assange tactic works, what does it say about the whole British
:33:30. > :33:34.extradition process? It doesn't say anything about it. As long as he's
:33:34. > :33:40.in the Ecuadorian embassy he's protected. The moment he steps
:33:40. > :33:44.outside the embassy, even if Ecuadorian Government has given him
:33:44. > :33:50.asylum, he will be arrested. Even if's in a diplomatic car on the way
:33:50. > :33:53.to the airport? That might be a more difficult circumstance, at one
:33:53. > :33:57.stage he would have to step on to British soil, at that point the
:33:57. > :34:02.arrest warrant can be effective. What do you make of the conjecture
:34:02. > :34:08.that it is possible, using the Ecuadorians as a broker to try to
:34:08. > :34:11.persuade the Swedes, that if he goes to Sweden he won't go to
:34:11. > :34:14.America? What the Swedish Government have said in the past is
:34:14. > :34:20.this, if there was any question of the Americans wanting to have him
:34:20. > :34:23.extradited to the United States, they would be able tro lie on the
:34:23. > :34:31.European Convention of Human Rights. His allegation is he can't get a
:34:31. > :34:35.fair trial, and would be subject to cruel and inhumane punishment. The
:34:35. > :34:39.European Convention of Human Rights would be to his advantage. He has
:34:39. > :34:42.until the 28th of June to take his present case to the European Court
:34:42. > :34:45.of Human Rights. There has been no talk of that, he seems to have
:34:45. > :34:48.moved towards this rather than going down that road. Is there
:34:48. > :34:52.anything at all the British Government can do, why would the
:34:53. > :34:55.Ecuadorians consider consulting the British Government on this?
:34:55. > :34:59.Ecuadorians have behaved very properly so far. They have said the
:34:59. > :35:03.United Nations convention, anyone who applies for asylum has to have
:35:03. > :35:06.his or her case carefully considered. That is what they are
:35:06. > :35:10.doing at the moment. There is one other matter, worth keep anything
:35:10. > :35:14.mind, of course, one of his objections is the fact that in
:35:14. > :35:19.Sweden you can use extradition to get someone back for questioning.
:35:19. > :35:23.Where as, of course, in the United Kingdom, or the United States, for
:35:23. > :35:28.that matter, charges have to be on the table. Part of the argument is
:35:28. > :35:32.that the Swedish system allows someone to be extradited against a
:35:32. > :35:37.lower standard than would be necessary in other parts of the
:35:37. > :35:41.world. It could be possible that we could see Julian Assange camping
:35:41. > :35:46.out in the Ecuadorian embassy for hereafter? I think there was a
:35:46. > :35:51.Cardinal who went into the American semcy -- embassy in Poland during
:35:51. > :35:54.the Cold War. And more recently we have had the case of the Chinese
:35:54. > :35:58.dissident who went into the American Embassy. His presence was
:35:58. > :36:02.an embarrassment for the Chinese Government. Therefore, they were
:36:02. > :36:05.susceptible for an arrangement with the United States. But it doesn't
:36:05. > :36:07.necessarily follow that Mr Assange's presence in the
:36:07. > :36:11.Ecuadorian embassy, would have the same kind of impact on the British
:36:11. > :36:16.Government. Thank you very much.
:36:16. > :36:20.At the end of the G20 Summit, entirely dominated by the eurozone
:36:20. > :36:23.debt crisis, has it exposed an inherent weakness of the whole
:36:24. > :36:28.project. Pressure has been put on the eurozone leaders by other world
:36:28. > :36:32.leaders to sort the mess out. Because, as President Obama said,
:36:32. > :36:40.Europe's economic problems reverberate in economies around the
:36:40. > :36:46.globe. With the BRIC countries reluctant to dip into the covers.
:36:46. > :36:49., we report on big developments emerging out of the G20. What is
:36:49. > :36:53.the latest on decisions taken? in Athens, the Conservatives are
:36:53. > :36:56.trying to form a coalition, with two other parties, the two other
:36:56. > :37:01.parties don't want to put any ministers into the coalition. Such
:37:02. > :37:08.are the joys of running a bailed out country. What has just happened
:37:08. > :37:11.in Los Cabos, at the G20 Summit, is specifically the world and the
:37:11. > :37:14.eurozone, has stepped back from the kind of bail out that put Greece
:37:14. > :37:20.into the trouble that it is in. What we understand is this, that
:37:20. > :37:25.agreement has been reached to use the 7 autobillion euros worth of
:37:25. > :37:30.bail out money that has been assembled and pledged, not any
:37:30. > :37:34.longer to bail out specific countries, such as Spain and Italy,
:37:34. > :37:39.deemed to be on the point of needing a bail out, but to go into
:37:39. > :37:46.markets and to buy their bonds. The aim that have is to redowse the
:37:46. > :37:49.interest rate on those -- reduce the interest rate on those
:37:49. > :37:53.Governments' borough. But they will go into the most important market
:37:53. > :37:59.in the world and abolish it. They will abolish market forces in the
:37:59. > :38:03.pricing of sovereign debt for the most striken countries. Instead of
:38:03. > :38:07.the rigmarole of lending them the money, on stringent conditions,
:38:07. > :38:12.that creates the death spiral. That is the agreement we understand. We
:38:12. > :38:13.are still waiting for the communique. Is there any sense in
:38:14. > :38:19.which the eurozone countries themselves have plan? Yes, they
:38:19. > :38:24.have been working on a bit more of a plan. This is the banking reform.
:38:24. > :38:30.The banking union, the wording of the leaked draft says "they intend
:38:30. > :38:36.to consider concrete steps towards a banking union". But the steps
:38:36. > :38:40.they outline, which are, the most important one is the pan-European
:38:40. > :38:45.guarantee for every depositor. These are important steps if they
:38:45. > :38:49.get their act together to do them. We could be in a week or two
:38:49. > :38:53.looking at a coherent thing coming out of Europe, that actually does
:38:53. > :38:58.finally put the block on this crisis but at the huge cost,
:38:58. > :39:01.effectively, of pooling the resources of Europe. As I say, more
:39:01. > :39:05.or less abolishing market forces in the pricing of sovereign debt.
:39:05. > :39:10.These are big steps. Do you think they have turned the corner in
:39:10. > :39:14.terms of confidence in this crisis? We saw yesterday the President of
:39:14. > :39:18.the European Commission Mr Barroso lecturing the rest of the world,
:39:18. > :39:22.saying don't tell us about democracy and political leadership,
:39:22. > :39:28.the euro is a strong project. I think they were trying to project
:39:29. > :39:33.some element of a fightback. Where all this comes from, is the end, a
:39:33. > :39:37.month ago of Merkozy, of President Sarkozy, and Angela Merkel, the two
:39:37. > :39:40.at the centre of the austerity project. That no longer exists, the
:39:40. > :39:44.balance of forces with the Americans pushing hard at the
:39:44. > :39:49.summit for a growth strategy, and the Japanese and the Chinese. Very
:39:49. > :39:52.important voices there, it has put Angela Merkel into a box. The thing
:39:52. > :40:01.we reported at the top of the segment, the idea that they will
:40:01. > :40:06.spend 7 autobillion euros, buying debt in -- 750 billion euros buying
:40:06. > :40:12.debt in the market, up to today she was resisting it. We have the
:40:12. > :40:17.Latvian Prime Minister, and here in the studio the Russian financial
:40:18. > :40:22.magnate, and pro-democracy campaigner. Do you think the bigger
:40:22. > :40:27.picture here is the shine has come out off the European post-war
:40:28. > :40:32.project. This was the enlightenment and edifice for the rest of the
:40:32. > :40:36.world, and everyone looking towards that democracy, do you think it has
:40:36. > :40:42.changed? I don't think so, I'm on Barroso's side. Nobody can deny
:40:43. > :40:47.that Europe being united have achieved must more prosperity and
:40:47. > :40:52.political problems. Its governance standard, if you compare it to in
:40:52. > :41:01.where I where in the world, is something to be -- anywhere in the
:41:01. > :41:06.world is to be desired. Russia has donated to Europe loot of money. If
:41:06. > :41:12.you look at the ECB directive about money misappropriated in the world
:41:12. > :41:16.economy last year, it is $1.2 trillion in one years. That was
:41:16. > :41:20.what I was expecting from the G20, something as regards setting up a
:41:20. > :41:26.new international body to stand up against global corruption. By the
:41:26. > :41:29.way, it was promising in 2010 that they would organise a commission to
:41:29. > :41:33.eradicate corruption, God knows what that commission is doing.
:41:33. > :41:38.we see is, actually, the economies of the countries, for whom
:41:38. > :41:43.democracy is not a priority, are stronger than the economies of the
:41:43. > :41:49.countries where democracy is the biggest preert, in Europe? There is
:41:49. > :41:52.no doubt -- Priority, in Europe? think Europe is experiencing
:41:52. > :41:57.temporary problems, there is enough fire power financially or
:41:57. > :42:04.politically, and hopefully the G20 is a turning point, in Europe
:42:04. > :42:07.finding its way to overcome the temporary difficulties. From the
:42:08. > :42:14.Latvian perspective, why would Latvia want to join a club that is
:42:14. > :42:18.in a bit of trouble at the moment? Good evening, certainly as this is
:42:18. > :42:27.a question which is often being asked. But, still, we think that
:42:27. > :42:32.the current crisis we are seeing, it is not so much a euro crisis, or
:42:32. > :42:35.eurozone crisis, it is a financial and economic crisis in certain
:42:35. > :42:39.eurozone countries, not following basic macro-economic rules. This
:42:39. > :42:44.needs to be corrected, and we don't think that there is something
:42:44. > :42:50.fundamentally wrong with the euro, or the eurozone. So we still think
:42:50. > :42:56.it is a good idea for Latvia to join the eurozone, and plan to do
:42:56. > :43:00.so as of January 1st, 2014. Is your reason for joining more a political
:43:00. > :43:08.reason, in a sense, than an economic one, as a bulwark against,
:43:08. > :43:14.as it were, the former oppressors? Well, I wouldn't really say that it
:43:14. > :43:20.is so many political reasons. Of course, strategic decisions for
:43:20. > :43:25.Latvia has been sper graigs into the EU and NATO -- integration into
:43:25. > :43:30.the EU and NATO, if you want N this sense we will be seeking to be in a
:43:30. > :43:35.core of Europe. If there are debates about having a two-speed
:43:35. > :43:38.Europe or a multiple-speed Europe, Latvia's intention will be at the
:43:39. > :43:42.core of the European developments. In this sense, of course, there is
:43:43. > :43:48.a political dimension to this, but the eurozone accession, first and
:43:48. > :43:52.foremost, it is still an economic question, and economic decision.
:43:52. > :43:58.From that purpose we also studied carefully the example of Estonia,
:43:58. > :44:02.that joined in 2011. Also, already during the eurozone crisis, we see
:44:02. > :44:10.it still served as a positive signal about financial and economic
:44:10. > :44:17.stability in Estonia. We would expect a similar effect in Latvia.
:44:17. > :44:20.Do you not get a sense of power shifting to the BRICs countries, to
:44:21. > :44:25.the emerging economies, that the whole European project is not the
:44:25. > :44:32.shining example it was. And actually, it is more like, it is
:44:32. > :44:36.perfectly possible that Greece will exit any way, and we will see a lot
:44:36. > :44:43.of unravelling? There is a lot of learning from the institutions in
:44:43. > :44:47.Europe, either at the EC level or the unilateral levels of the most
:44:48. > :44:52.developed countries, obviously. If Russia joins the EC tomorrow, which
:44:52. > :44:56.is an overexaggeration, there would be a great effect on the judicial
:44:56. > :45:01.system in Russia, and the rule of law, and the parliament overlooking
:45:01. > :45:05.the executive, and finally anti- corruption campaigning. I think it
:45:05. > :45:08.is only globally we can give a serious answer to global corruption,
:45:08. > :45:12.because most of that is international. Just on the broader
:45:12. > :45:16.point of it, it would be a very strange thing, would it not, to be
:45:16. > :45:19.seen, China is giving money to Europe at the moment. To see
:45:19. > :45:23.emerging countries giving money to European countries who may have
:45:23. > :45:27.actual low squadered a lot of what they had? I don't believe Europe
:45:27. > :45:34.does need a lot of assistance from those countries. There is still a
:45:34. > :45:38.lot of money in the local covers, if you look at the -- coffers, if
:45:38. > :45:42.you look at the Germans they were more reluctant a month ago, but
:45:42. > :45:47.they are becoming more used to the necessity of their assisting
:45:47. > :45:51.countries in Europe. From Latvia's perspective, Prime Minister, what
:45:51. > :45:56.do you think Europe would look like, or the European Union would look
:45:56. > :46:01.like a decade from now. Would it embrace even more countries, or
:46:01. > :46:06.will it, perhaps, stick, Latvia may well join, former Balkan countries,
:46:06. > :46:10.but no further. Do you think there is an optimum size for Europe, and
:46:10. > :46:16.it cannot take any poorer economies into it?
:46:16. > :46:19.As we currently see developments in Europe, it is clear that
:46:19. > :46:23.enlargement doesn't seem to be on top of the agenda. In fact, quite a
:46:23. > :46:30.few countries they are talking about enlargement fatigue and
:46:30. > :46:34.things like this. In the next decade we could expect western
:46:34. > :46:39.Balkans countries joining, but not much more. But, of course, what is
:46:39. > :46:44.more important is it is not only this process on enlargement, but
:46:44. > :46:52.what the design of the EU will be. Currently we are probably also
:46:52. > :46:58.seeing that the eurozone, having a monetary union, you also need to
:46:58. > :47:02.work more closely towards economic things. We will probably expect
:47:02. > :47:06.more economic operation in the EU. I have to stop you both there. We
:47:06. > :47:09.go straight back to the news that the Egyptian state TV announcement,
:47:09. > :47:18.that the disgraced former Egyptian President, Hosni Mubarak, has died.
:47:18. > :47:23.It seems it is not that simple. We're in Tahrir Square in Cairo we
:47:23. > :47:26.join it now. What is happening? is a night of confusion. Over the
:47:26. > :47:30.past few hours there have been conflicting report about the poor
:47:30. > :47:35.health of the former President, Hosni Mubarak. About an hour ago
:47:35. > :47:38.the state news agency and state television both report that Hosni
:47:38. > :47:44.Mubarak was clinically dead. Clinically dead after he had been
:47:44. > :47:48.moved from the prison to the military hospital in Madi, but now,
:47:48. > :47:52.in the last half hour, we are getting other reports carried by
:47:52. > :47:57.news agencies, such as Reuters, saying the former President is not
:47:57. > :48:01.clinically dead, that he suffered the heart attack, they used a
:48:01. > :48:04.defibrillator, he was unconscious, but he was still alive. That is the
:48:04. > :48:09.latest. We are waiting for new information, obviously watching it
:48:09. > :48:11.very closely. We now have conflicting reports. There was a
:48:11. > :48:14.moment here in Tahrir Square were the protests stopped, but they are