:00:11. > :00:17.Tonight, ministers clash over whether foreigners studying in
:00:17. > :00:21.Britain are immigrants. Universities are worth an estimated
:00:21. > :00:24.�5 billion to the UK economy, but the Government's relying on cutting
:00:24. > :00:29.the number of overseas student, to meet the immigration target.
:00:29. > :00:36.We hear from a university Vice Chancellor, and the Immigration
:00:36. > :00:39.Minister. When the world economy is not
:00:39. > :00:43.enough, David Cameron passes judgment on the financial affairs
:00:43. > :00:48.of a comedian. Think of all those people who work hard, pay their
:00:48. > :00:51.taxes, and out of that post-tax income, save up to go and see Jimmy
:00:51. > :00:54.Carr, he's taking that money and stuffing it into something where
:00:54. > :00:59.doesn't have to pay taxes, that is not fair. Should the Prime Minister
:00:59. > :01:05.be wading in on an individual's tax arrangements.
:01:05. > :01:11.The UK city where rough justice is methed out by paramilitary -- meted
:01:11. > :01:15.out by paramilitary gangs, some how away from the rule of law. It is
:01:15. > :01:20.the hardest thing in my life I have done, to stand and watch my son
:01:20. > :01:25.getting shot. I was helpless and powerless, there was nothing I
:01:25. > :01:29.could do. Iguanas, tropical fish and tortoises, is the foplation of
:01:29. > :01:31.Ecuador about to be joined by a another strange creature, Julian
:01:32. > :01:36.Assange. The political deadlock continues in
:01:36. > :01:46.Syria, what can leaders in the Arab world do to end the violence, we
:01:46. > :01:48.
:01:48. > :01:54.will ask Prince Hassan of Jordan. Good evening, would you risk a �5
:01:54. > :02:00.billion industry if you could cut the number of immigrants. Higher
:02:00. > :02:05.education is one of the Britain's biggest exports for the country.
:02:05. > :02:09.Should students be included in the immigration target? Newsnight's
:02:09. > :02:15.learned that one senior minister is pushing in private to have them
:02:15. > :02:19.exempted, a move that would instantly cut the numbers on paper,
:02:19. > :02:29.whilst preserve their right to study here. Practical solution or
:02:29. > :02:33.
:02:33. > :02:39.shriet of hand. London is a down gearing up for the arrival of
:02:39. > :02:41.countless foreigner, spectators at the Olympics, New Street signs,
:02:41. > :02:50.nuclearer Tube maps. They will leave, what about those who have
:02:50. > :02:53.come and not gone. When polled by Tory private
:02:53. > :02:56.pollsters, after being out-of-touch and living standards, immigration
:02:56. > :03:01.is the issue dogging voters. At the last election this Government
:03:01. > :03:11.pledgeed it would act, net immigration, it said, would be down
:03:11. > :03:12.
:03:12. > :03:18.to tens of thousands by 20156789 Am -- 2015. Ambitious, restrictions by
:03:18. > :03:26.Theresa May to keep others out have been brought back. It has preturbed
:03:26. > :03:30.many many, -- the Tories wanted only those earning just less than
:03:30. > :03:36.�30,000 able to come to Britain when marrying here. Certainly
:03:36. > :03:40.nobody who might be able to claim benefits. Lib Dems want a lower cap,
:03:40. > :03:44.now there is a fresh font. Newsnight understand that is David
:03:44. > :03:48.Willetts is battling the Home Secretary to have students removed
:03:48. > :03:53.from the cap. He's said to believe that students are not immigrants,
:03:53. > :03:59.and he's also said the public don't believe students are immigrant. He
:03:59. > :04:03.pointed out that 15% of students stay as long in this country as an
:04:03. > :04:07.average immigrant. He points out if we lose students we lose a huge
:04:07. > :04:12.amount of Exchequer, he's joined across Government by many who agree.
:04:12. > :04:18.The Home Secretary, May, and Damian Green -- Theresa May, and Damian
:04:18. > :04:22.Green, have done a huge amount in cracking down on bogus colleagues
:04:22. > :04:25.and bogus applications. This was a huge issue. But on the other hand,
:04:25. > :04:29.four of the world's best universities are in Britain, we
:04:29. > :04:33.have benefited in the country tremenduously that we have
:04:34. > :04:40.attracted brilliant studented from around the world here. Do we want
:04:40. > :04:47.to attract the next generation of world leaders, the blilt and others,
:04:47. > :04:51.they bring with -- built and others, they bring with them diplomat --
:04:51. > :04:54.Bill Clinton, and others, they bring with them diplomatic ties and
:04:55. > :05:00.other ties, we don't want to use this.
:05:00. > :05:04.The immigration balance is at 250,000 a year. The university for
:05:04. > :05:08.Public Policy Research showed of those students amount today 200,000.
:05:08. > :05:11.Because Government could provoke a stampede of students leaving in the
:05:11. > :05:17.critical years before an election, the Government could see many more
:05:17. > :05:21.than just 100,000 leave, reaching its target very quickly indeed. It
:05:21. > :05:25.is estimated for every 50,000 students who leave the country, �2-
:05:25. > :05:29.�3 billion is lost to the economy. We think this is a win-win
:05:29. > :05:34.situation for them, by removing students from the net migration
:05:34. > :05:38.figure, and only counting them at the point where they switch to more
:05:38. > :05:42.important catagories, to marry or to work, you are removing a large
:05:42. > :05:46.number of migrants from the net migration figure, which looks good,
:05:46. > :05:48.but also gaining a more accurate figure of migration trends in the
:05:48. > :05:51.country, which we don't have at the moment. The Home Secretary is
:05:51. > :05:55.determined to press ahead, and the signs are the Prime Minister does
:05:55. > :05:59.still agree with her. There is some amusement at the number of Tory MPs
:05:59. > :06:03.and ministers who think it is their special interest that should be
:06:03. > :06:07.exempted. Even so, allies of Cable and Willetts think there are a
:06:07. > :06:11.number of people in the Treasury mind today agree with them. That
:06:11. > :06:15.you can't block students from an economy and not expect GDP to be
:06:15. > :06:18.affected. The Prime Minister made a pledge by the 2015 election, the
:06:18. > :06:21.number of immigrants would be down to tens of thousands. There are
:06:21. > :06:26.people close to him that think currently they are not on track to
:06:26. > :06:29.meet. That it risks being as big a breach of promise as Nick Clegg's
:06:29. > :06:34.was over tuition fees. The opposition think the Government is
:06:34. > :06:37.in a cul-de-sac on this debate. The adverse effects of immigration come
:06:37. > :06:42.from EU immigration, they think. This is tricky territory for the
:06:42. > :06:45.Labour Party, many people think they, in part, lost the 2010
:06:45. > :06:49.election, because they didn't have enough to say about immigration. On
:06:49. > :06:51.Friday, Ed Miliband, the Labour leader, will make a speech on the
:06:51. > :06:56.issue. It is thought he will emphasise the problems are coming
:06:56. > :07:01.just as much from immigration within the EU, as it does without.
:07:01. > :07:05.He will struggle to show he has any solution that is go further than
:07:05. > :07:09.those of his predecessors. Great British jobs for great British
:07:09. > :07:13.workers. It is expected the Labour leader
:07:13. > :07:17.will announce policies, sources say, they believe could level the
:07:17. > :07:21.playing field between British and European workers. This could
:07:21. > :07:25.include looking at whether the labour market could be change today
:07:25. > :07:30.discourage factories, recruiting workers from abroad, so gazumping
:07:30. > :07:33.UK-based job centres. The summer's tourists will be here
:07:33. > :07:36.very soorpbgs but gone very quickly Labour and the Conservatives
:07:36. > :07:46.clearly believe the question of who is in or out of the country guide
:07:46. > :07:52.who is is in or out of power. Green is the immigration minister who
:07:52. > :07:55.doesn't want students exempted from the gap, Professor Acton, the Vice
:07:55. > :07:59.Chancellor of the university of East Anglia is here also. When
:07:59. > :08:02.people think of immigration, if they think of immigration as a
:08:02. > :08:05.problem, they don't think of the students here studying for a year?
:08:06. > :08:08.The vast number of people in this country do think uncontrolled
:08:08. > :08:11.immigration was a problem under the previous Government. It is one of
:08:11. > :08:14.the most popular things this Government is trying to do, to
:08:14. > :08:19.control immigration. They don't level the finger at a foreign
:08:19. > :08:23.student, do they? The definition of an immigrant, it is a UN definition,
:08:23. > :08:27.not mine or the Government's. It is somebody who comes and lives in
:08:27. > :08:31.another country for more than a year. Student, Conservative, count
:08:31. > :08:35.-- students, count, if they stay here for more than a year, the same
:08:35. > :08:38.way workers do. It is sensible they. Do if somebody is here for up to
:08:38. > :08:42.five years, then they are living somewhere, they are take up housing,
:08:42. > :08:49.they are using public transport, they may well be using the health
:08:49. > :08:54.service. So a student is a migrant? A student here for more than a year
:08:54. > :08:57.is. David Willetts doesn't seem to think so? I'm relying on a EU
:08:57. > :09:01.definition. It is something from the IPPR said in the piece, it is
:09:01. > :09:06.fine for the Government, they can redefine t thank will make
:09:06. > :09:10.immigration much easier. You can't redesign your way out of a real
:09:10. > :09:14.problem, that is old fashioned politicians fiddling with figures.
:09:14. > :09:18.You could say it is a more accurate picture of what is happening. If
:09:18. > :09:22.only 15% stay in the country, surely, by doing that, you give
:09:22. > :09:29.people a much more accurate picture? That 15% figure is wrong.
:09:29. > :09:32.We have done, the Home Office has done a cohort study of the 2004
:09:32. > :09:36.students, we discovered 20% were here five years later, not just
:09:36. > :09:41.three years later, which many think is the normal length of a
:09:41. > :09:46.university course. Anyone here more than a year counts as an immigrant,
:09:46. > :09:49.there are sensible reasons to count them as so, they are living here.
:09:49. > :09:55.I'm afraid it is terribly implausible for the Government to
:09:55. > :10:00.pretend its hands are tied by UN recommendations on international
:10:00. > :10:04.statistic tisks. It d statistics. It can and should continue to
:10:04. > :10:07.provide. That in a free and independent country like this, we
:10:07. > :10:12.exempt university-sponsored students, not all students at the
:10:12. > :10:16.moment. Because they have such a high compliance with visa
:10:16. > :10:18.regulation records, as the good minister has brornd to say.
:10:19. > :10:23.course the university will be saying, that because of course they
:10:23. > :10:26.are a massive stream of revenue for you? You could, but we must be
:10:26. > :10:30.careful, nationals interest here, do you know the estimate is for
:10:30. > :10:37.every ten international students we have here, they support six British
:10:37. > :10:41.jobs. Six British jobs in retail, entertainment, cafes as well as on
:10:41. > :10:45.campus. Six for every ten. Push those to Australia, as this
:10:45. > :10:50.Government is doing, Theresa May may well be celebrated in Australia,
:10:50. > :10:57.here it is penalising people. double-dip recession, that is a
:10:57. > :11:02.pretty punchy move?? In a double- dip recession where we have 300,000
:11:02. > :11:07.unemployed graduates. We need to look at British graduates. I don't
:11:07. > :11:11.want to discourage university students. The effects of the policy,
:11:11. > :11:16.the student visas have fallen considerably. More than 500
:11:16. > :11:20.colleges that used to bring people in don't any more, many, no doubt,
:11:20. > :11:26.bogus. While the reduction has been big, the percentage of students
:11:26. > :11:32.studying at university, has gone up from half of total foreign students
:11:32. > :11:37.to two thirds of foreign students. There is plenty of opportunity to
:11:37. > :11:44.remove the bogus ones and leave the real ones. That is what we have
:11:44. > :11:47.done. And taken legitimate students out of your camp? There were 20,000
:11:47. > :11:51.fewer student visas issued this year than there were. The
:11:51. > :11:56.percentage of remaining foreign students going to universities are
:11:56. > :12:01.much, much higher. That is exactly what we said we would do. He's
:12:01. > :12:06.wrong? This is a secondhand report of what David Willetts has said, he
:12:06. > :12:09.hasn't said it to me privately. don't think he does say that?
:12:09. > :12:14.think David is absolutely concerned to have a strong university sector,
:12:14. > :12:17.so am I. The point made, is actually, it is all very well
:12:17. > :12:21.talking about the revenue that foreign students bring in, what
:12:21. > :12:26.about the places they take up from British students? They absolutely
:12:26. > :12:30.don't. They pay full fee, and we have been capped until very
:12:30. > :12:33.recently under this Government, into how many student West can take.
:12:34. > :12:41.They keep plane of the scientific courses alive. They are critical
:12:41. > :12:44.for job creation, they are why Britain has the strongest
:12:44. > :12:49.university sector. What do you think will happen, paint us your
:12:49. > :12:53.scenario, if this goes ahead? this continues, negative message is
:12:53. > :13:00.notably in India, it will bite deeper and deeper. People will say
:13:00. > :13:03.Britain is not welcoming. We pick that up all the time. All the
:13:03. > :13:07.embassies know it. It is an extraordinary thing to be doing
:13:07. > :13:13.when all the EOCD countries are doing the very opposite. There is
:13:13. > :13:18.no way you the Immigration Minister can pick on this target of the
:13:18. > :13:25.student population, it is a soft target? It wasn't, the student visa
:13:25. > :13:29.was the single biggest loophole in the system up until now. We have
:13:29. > :13:34.cut 57,000 in the first year from student advise sa. Chinese student
:13:34. > :13:38.applications are up this year. -- visa. Chinese student
:13:39. > :13:45.applications are up this year. We talk ourselves into this problem,
:13:45. > :13:49.no Government minister is saying we don't want foreign students wrecks
:13:49. > :13:53.want genuine student -- students, we want genuine students. What I
:13:53. > :14:00.want is genuine students coming here to study, not to work, and
:14:00. > :14:04.doing it at genuine institutions. The university-sponsored ones,
:14:04. > :14:07.monitored with the precision that Stalin would have enjoyed. What I
:14:07. > :14:11.like to hear you say is you want the numbers to grow.
:14:11. > :14:15.It is hard to imagine any circumstance in which a parent
:14:15. > :14:20.would hand over their child to be shot. But in a koorn of Northern
:14:20. > :14:24.Ireland, Londonderry, a dark side - - corner of Northern Ireland,
:14:24. > :14:29.Londonderry, dark side is emerging. A group is dishing out hard
:14:29. > :14:34.punishment to those, they say, are dealing drugs. Said to be
:14:34. > :14:41.responsible of the murder of one, and shooting of at least 40, RAAD
:14:41. > :14:43.have been advising parents to bring their children to be shot by
:14:43. > :14:48.appointment to spare them something more serious.
:14:48. > :14:56.On the western edge of the United Kingdom, this will be centre stage
:14:56. > :15:01.next year, as the National City of Culture. A break with its divided
:15:01. > :15:05.past. In pockets of Derry, we have heard about a divided present, in
:15:05. > :15:10.which some families are forced to part. When one of them is ordered
:15:10. > :15:15.to move away. Or even when a parent is asked to present their child to
:15:15. > :15:19.be shot in the legs. It is probably the most hardest thing I have done
:15:19. > :15:24.in my life. To stand and watch my son getting shot. I think that if
:15:24. > :15:28.this continues on f they don't allow him back, they will shoot him
:15:28. > :15:32.dead. This is barbaric what they are doing. They shoot a young man
:15:32. > :15:39.down, and leave two young children without father. The violence is
:15:39. > :15:41.centered on the nationalist areas of Craigen and the Bogside, those
:15:41. > :15:46.responsible used to be members of the Provisional IRA. Now they are
:15:46. > :15:56.own as RAAD, Republican Action Against Drugs. They claim they
:15:56. > :16:00.target drug dealers. Some of their victims say otherwise. Three months
:16:00. > :16:08.ago there was a punch-up outside this bar, two cousins got into a
:16:08. > :16:12.fight with a member of RAAD. Afterwards their familiar --
:16:12. > :16:16.families were told they would be shot. The father of one insisted
:16:16. > :16:21.his son had nothing do with drugs. He was forced to make an appalling
:16:21. > :16:27.decision. One he's willing to talk about. We sat down as a family and
:16:27. > :16:30.we discussed our options. Option one, leave the country, which I'm
:16:30. > :16:34.not doing. Option two, go to the police, which I can't do, for
:16:34. > :16:39.obvious reasons. They shoot me or shoot my wife or shoot my son dead
:16:39. > :16:44.for going to the police, and the easiest one was get him shot. We
:16:44. > :16:49.had to sit, as a family, and discuss the easiest way. That was a
:16:49. > :16:53.long, long night. Why couldn't you go to the police? I could have went
:16:53. > :16:58.to the police, I chose not to go to the police. If I wanted the police
:16:58. > :17:03.I would not be sitting here now. Kieran had one thing going for him.
:17:03. > :17:09.As a former member of the IRA himself, RAAD were willing to do an
:17:09. > :17:14.old comrade a favour. They said they would shoot your son once?
:17:14. > :17:19.because of my background as a Republican. How good much them. My
:17:19. > :17:23.son is left with a bullet lodged in his leg for the rest of his life.
:17:23. > :17:29.Other parents also make the same desperate calculation. For this
:17:29. > :17:36.woman anything to spare her son the dreaded six-pack, bull kets in the
:17:36. > :17:41.elbows, knee -- bullets in the elbow, knees and ankles. He was
:17:41. > :17:45.going to get very severely done, I thought the best thing would be to
:17:45. > :17:49.bring him forward and go with him. That's what he did, he went down
:17:49. > :17:53.the lane, when he got to the bottom he saw the men coming towards him.
:17:53. > :17:57.I turned around, then I heard the two shots, and I started, I ran
:17:57. > :18:04.down the lane. He was just lying on the ground. That's when I thought
:18:04. > :18:14.he really has been shot. There was blood just lying there. I said are
:18:14. > :18:14.
:18:14. > :18:20.you all right, he said's already, mamy. The gun men have little
:18:20. > :18:25.difficulty enforcing their will on the people, in a community that is
:18:25. > :18:29.afraid of reprisals for talking about them. It turns out people
:18:29. > :18:33.don't have a lot of choice, come to them and they will use a small
:18:33. > :18:37.calibre handgun, or if they have to come and get you, it will be with a
:18:37. > :18:42.shotgun, and the injuries will be far worse, even life-threatening.
:18:42. > :18:47.This woman's son who has a long history of drug and social problems,
:18:47. > :18:51.has been ordered out of Derry. been put out of his own home. He
:18:51. > :18:56.has now had to go somewhere where he doesn't know anybody. It is
:18:56. > :19:02.really hard for him, he has a lot of problems as well. He's always
:19:02. > :19:06.had my support. Now he's got no support whatsoever.
:19:06. > :19:09.Since 2008, more than 40 young men have been shot, dozens more have
:19:09. > :19:15.been ordered to leave the city. Terroristised by people they know,
:19:15. > :19:19.but who remain faceless to the outside world. Through an
:19:19. > :19:24.intermediary, I arranged to meet them.
:19:24. > :19:28.I have just met and interviewed two members of RAAD's leadership, they
:19:28. > :19:32.refused to be filmed, but agreed to answer all my questions. Both claim
:19:32. > :19:37.to be former members of the Provisional IRA. They also said
:19:37. > :19:42.their group had weapons and explosions and the same capability
:19:42. > :19:46.that the provisionals had before the ceasefire. That last claim is
:19:46. > :19:52.described as lacking all credibility by the police. We have
:19:52. > :19:56.reconstructed the meeting with actors. I asked the men to justify
:19:57. > :20:00.their assertion that the community is behind them. This isn't just
:20:00. > :20:05.exprovos, these are people at university, people at work in call
:20:05. > :20:09.centres, unemployed, women, house wives, the whole community. They
:20:09. > :20:15.store arms, weapons, explosions, cars, they provide us with meeting
:20:15. > :20:19.houses, safe houses, wash houses. We're in contact with our community
:20:19. > :20:23.24-hours a day, seven days a week. We are in and out of people's
:20:23. > :20:29.houses. But they are scared you have? No. No. That's not it. They
:20:29. > :20:35.had this to say about their method. We don't beat anybody, we never
:20:35. > :20:40.have. No, no, we don't. It is a thing we don't do. We shoot people.
:20:40. > :20:45.We have not beaten anybody. We class our people as volunteers and
:20:45. > :20:49.soldiers. We give them weapons of war to do their job.
:20:49. > :20:54.It's long been the language of paramilitary groups across Northern
:20:54. > :21:00.Ireland. While the tactics have been to resist the police. At a
:21:00. > :21:04.recent protest, a BBC crew captured the moment when RAAD bombed a PSNI
:21:04. > :21:11.vehicle. They told us there would be similar
:21:11. > :21:16.attacks unless police searches stopped. The PSNI have a delem
:21:16. > :21:19.marks how do they police a community where people -- dilemma,
:21:19. > :21:23.how do they police a community where people won't give evidence
:21:23. > :21:27.and their officers may not be safe. We have been brought into the area
:21:27. > :21:30.with hoax devices planted, and when police officers go in there is
:21:30. > :21:34.petrol bombs. That means when police officers go in, they have to
:21:34. > :21:38.be equipped in numbers to protect themselves. That can create an
:21:38. > :21:41.imagery associated with the past, that these groups seek to exploilt
:21:41. > :21:46.employment. People who think the police can't people them come here
:21:46. > :21:52.for support. At Rosemount community centre, Hugh Grady, another former
:21:52. > :21:56.IRA man, has -- Brady, another former IRA man, has intercedeed in
:21:56. > :22:00.112 cases in the last 12 months. There is still people who believe
:22:00. > :22:05.we don't have a proper policing service. In those areas, what they
:22:05. > :22:10.have turned to are people like RAAD, to deal with drug dealers. We
:22:10. > :22:13.talked about the instant justice, the difficulty in this community at
:22:13. > :22:18.the moment is a drug dealer is arrested by the police, they are
:22:18. > :22:24.charged, they are out on bail the next day. And they continue to deal
:22:24. > :22:32.drugs. Now the community don't see the process of law and justice, all
:22:32. > :22:38.they see is a drug dealer back on the street. Back into the community
:22:38. > :22:42.delivering drugs to their children. So far RAAD have maintained a
:22:42. > :22:45.distinct identity from the called dissident Republican groups like
:22:45. > :22:48.the Real IRA. That was blurred recently, when they appeared
:22:48. > :22:52.together in a protest against policing.
:22:52. > :22:57.RAAD refused to comment on any links between them and the
:22:57. > :23:00.dissident groups. Saying their only aim is to tackle drug dealing, and
:23:00. > :23:05.the anti-social behaviour it brings. Wefrpblgts know we are never going
:23:05. > :23:08.to eradicate -- We know we will never eradicate the drugs problem
:23:08. > :23:11.and people will always make profits from other people, but we will make
:23:11. > :23:15.it dangerous for them. The group boasts they have the means to d
:23:15. > :23:20.that. We have no way of checking the credibility of their claims.
:23:20. > :23:24.We're strong enough that we can operate in Derry, Donegal, Strabane,
:23:24. > :23:28.Dungiven, we have more weapons in the IRA than the IRA had prior to
:23:28. > :23:33.the ceasefire. We can do everything the IRA used to do we have that
:23:33. > :23:37.capability. To encourage people to speak out
:23:38. > :23:44.against RAADa new confidential helpline has been launched. In the
:23:44. > :23:50.meantime, the gunmen remain judge, jury, and in one case, executioner.
:23:50. > :23:56.Andrew Alan was first exiled from Derry, then followed over the
:23:57. > :24:01.border into the Republican lick of Ireland and murdered. They are
:24:01. > :24:04.saying -- Republic of Ireland and murdered. They are saying he was a
:24:04. > :24:09.drug dealer and anti-social behaviour, that is their way of
:24:09. > :24:15.justifying what they done. Andrew's family were adamant that although
:24:15. > :24:17.he could traibgt trouble, he was not involved with drugs. His --
:24:17. > :24:23.could attract trouble, he was not involved in drugs. His mother wants
:24:23. > :24:30.to speak out against this. How can we call this a culture if this is
:24:30. > :24:34.going on. Next year Derry will show itself off as a vibrant place, but
:24:34. > :24:42.ever present too is its other culture, of violent republicanism,
:24:42. > :24:45.people who have kept their weapons and are prepared to use them.
:24:45. > :24:50.Northern Ireland's justice minister David Ford, joins us from Belfast.
:24:50. > :24:53.Did you know this was going on? has been clear there have been
:24:53. > :24:57.small numbers of people, as the report says in pockets in Derry,
:24:57. > :25:01.who are resisting the move towards political and peaceful progress
:25:01. > :25:11.that the vast majority of our society is moving on. We shouldn't
:25:11. > :25:12.
:25:12. > :25:18.exaggerate what it is, nor should we underplay it. You saw man who
:25:18. > :25:23.took his son at an appointed time to be shot. You sae saw done in
:25:23. > :25:26.that film and her son was killed. How can this happen? The police
:25:26. > :25:31.service, in contux with the Department of Justice, announced
:25:31. > :25:35.the campaign last week against these paramilitary assaults.
:25:35. > :25:39.did it announce a campaign last week, when these assaulting have
:25:39. > :25:47.been going on since 2008, and the police force has been in place for
:25:47. > :25:50.ten years? A police force has been in place for longer than that. What
:25:50. > :25:52.you also have to acknowledge is the picture across Northern Ireland,
:25:52. > :25:55.include anything Derry, police officers are able to operate in
:25:55. > :26:01.places they couldn't a few years ago. When I was in Derry a couple
:26:01. > :26:05.of months ago, I heard about the efforts each house on the West Bank,
:26:05. > :26:08.including Bogside and craven, has the phone number and name of their
:26:08. > :26:13.local police officer, that is something impossible ten or 15
:26:13. > :26:18.years ago. There are clearly no-go areas that have city? There are no
:26:18. > :26:21.no-go areas. Why aren't they going there and stopping this from
:26:21. > :26:28.happening? Would you suggest that rioting happens in parts of London
:26:28. > :26:33.or crime happens in parts of Birmingham and Glasgow the police
:26:33. > :26:38.couldn't go there. The rioting hasn't gone on for four years?
:26:38. > :26:42.realise that organised crime in GB has been going on for a number of
:26:42. > :26:48.years. No police service can stop action like this, what is clear is
:26:48. > :26:51.there is positive work going on by the police service, supported by
:26:51. > :26:55.other agencies. The reference at the end of the clip referred to
:26:55. > :27:02.Derry and the progress that is being made and the work being done
:27:02. > :27:05.towards City of Culture next year. Their clean-up rate on
:27:05. > :27:08.paramilitary-style attacks 4%, don't you find that pathetic?
:27:08. > :27:11.you have to look at the circumstances in which this is
:27:11. > :27:14.happening. That is why the particular initiative is being
:27:14. > :27:20.announced by the police to deal with this. That is why you heard
:27:20. > :27:24.the mother of Andrew Alan, murdered by RAAD, talking about working to
:27:24. > :27:27.change things. You are talking about a community that is too
:27:27. > :27:32.scared to come to the police or approach the state. They take their
:27:32. > :27:35.children to be shot, because they are too scared not to? We are not
:27:35. > :27:39.talking about a community that is too scared. We are talking about a
:27:39. > :27:42.certain number of families too scared to do anything else. You are
:27:42. > :27:45.in danger of exaggerating what is clearly a very significant problem,
:27:45. > :27:48.a problem that is being addressed by the relevant agencies, and which
:27:48. > :27:53.support is needed from the community to back up the work being
:27:53. > :27:59.done by the police. To suggest that entire communities are suffering
:27:59. > :28:04.for this is to grossly exaggerate the issue. We shouldn't exaggerate
:28:04. > :28:10.it, as we shouldn't understatement How have the tax affairs of a
:28:10. > :28:17.comedian become the concern of the Prime Minister. David Cameron today
:28:17. > :28:22.branded the tax exploits of Jimmy Carr as morally reprehensible, as
:28:22. > :28:27.it wasry re- veeld he puts his money in an offshore K2 scheme. The
:28:27. > :28:30.tax he pays amounts to 1%. Where does tax prudence become tax
:28:30. > :28:36.avoidance, where does legal behaviour, moral or otherwise,
:28:36. > :28:39.become a matter for the PM. It is not morally acceptable. I put
:28:40. > :28:45.it like this. Think of all the people who work hard, and pay their
:28:45. > :28:52.taxes, out of that post-tax income save up to go and see Jimmy Carr.
:28:52. > :28:56.He's taking that money and putting it in places where he doesn't have
:28:56. > :29:01.to pay taxes. That is not fair or right. Newsnight managed to speak
:29:01. > :29:05.to Jimmy Carr, unfortunately he didn't want to do an interview. We
:29:05. > :29:09.will hear more of what he said a few moments ago. Why do you think
:29:09. > :29:13.David Cameron waded in on this one, and what will be the political
:29:13. > :29:16.consequence of this? We should get one thing clear. The reason we are
:29:16. > :29:21.talking about it now is an individual was involved. They have
:29:21. > :29:26.talked about taxes and moral issues before the budget, it has Frances
:29:26. > :29:31.Osborne talking about sorts of avoidance -- George Osborne talking
:29:31. > :29:34.about sources of avoidance being morally repugnant. There are all
:29:34. > :29:40.sorts of things going on with Switzerland, they do think their
:29:40. > :29:45.record is fairly good. If you are trying to show there is a problem
:29:45. > :29:50.at the bottom of the society, and at the top, by the same way in
:29:50. > :29:53.cutting the autop tax, they are happy to be associated with unnamed
:29:53. > :29:58.individuals behaving the same way as Jimmy Carr does. The Prime
:29:58. > :30:02.Minister felt he had to wade in. In a consequence he hasn't computed,
:30:02. > :30:07.because he's slightly tired because of a trip to Mexico, or they aren't
:30:07. > :30:12.thinking a way ahead, now you have named an individual everyone is
:30:13. > :30:18.fair game, that is including the Prime Minister's family. The papers
:30:18. > :30:27.are calling it back to basics for tax. The press will have loads of
:30:27. > :30:32.fun going at you again and again. I have my guest with me now
:30:32. > :30:37.Was he riot to step in and call this -- right to step in and call
:30:37. > :30:39.this morally unacceptable? Whether he stepped in and simply answered a
:30:39. > :30:44.question is something I don't know. The Prime Minister is right to
:30:44. > :30:49.answer questions. But I think I would quote Lord collide from 1929
:30:49. > :30:53.who set out the legal -- Lord Clyde on from 1929 who set out the legal
:30:53. > :30:58.position on this. He said no man in this country is under the smallest
:30:58. > :31:04.obligation, moral or others, save to arrange his legal relations to
:31:04. > :31:08.his business or property, to enable the revenue to put the largest
:31:08. > :31:12.possible shovel into his stores. That is the moral and legal
:31:12. > :31:18.position. We have a moral duty to obey the law, but not to pay more
:31:18. > :31:22.tax than the law requires. The I can't help thinking the
:31:22. > :31:29.person David Cameron wants to distance himself from right now s a
:31:29. > :31:32.Lord from 1929? But it was a judgment in a legal case in case on
:31:32. > :31:38.the Inland Revenue. It is still the law of the land. We have to look at
:31:38. > :31:42.the law in this case not high terms about what people may or may not
:31:42. > :31:45.want. Of course we have to deal with the law, but the coalition
:31:45. > :31:48.agreement was clear at the beginning, wu one of the things we
:31:48. > :31:53.brought to the discussions -- one of the things we brought to the
:31:53. > :31:59.discussions, that we have to deal with tax avoidance to tax evasions.
:31:59. > :32:04.From the very first budget money was put in by the Treasury, just �1
:32:04. > :32:09.billion to collect �7 billion of uncollected taxes. Then there was
:32:09. > :32:13.the attempt to get around the stamp duty of Asia, where people had put
:32:13. > :32:17.their money into an offshore company. We are not talking about
:32:17. > :32:23.evasion, but about something that is utterly legal, from a law maker
:32:23. > :32:32.who could change the law f he so thought? The answer is, of course
:32:32. > :32:34.it has to be dealt with by the law. From all I know the Government is
:32:34. > :32:39.absolutely determined to make sure everybody pays a decent proportion
:32:39. > :32:44.of their wages in taxes, and the clever ones and the rich ones, and
:32:44. > :32:47.the ones with a lot of local and accountany advice, don't manage to
:32:47. > :32:51.get out of the obligation that ordinary people referred to by the
:32:51. > :32:54.Prime Minister meet every day. Maybe that is how laws changed, you
:32:54. > :32:59.get the feel from the public for something they don't like. Maybe
:32:59. > :33:01.this is the beginning of what will be achange in the law? That is
:33:01. > :33:05.completely unreasonable, for tax- payers, they need to know whether
:33:05. > :33:11.they owe tax or not. They can't think does the country think I
:33:11. > :33:14.should pay a bit more or a bit less. Some tax avoidance...There Is no
:33:14. > :33:20.morality for you at all in this country? I think it is a legal
:33:20. > :33:25.question. The Government can change the law. I happen to think...If
:33:26. > :33:31.earn �3 million and you are earning 1%, do you find anything about that
:33:31. > :33:34.reprehensible? I think Mr Carr will find as Ken dod did, it is
:33:34. > :33:44.interesting comedians get in trouble with their tax apayers,
:33:44. > :33:45.
:33:45. > :33:50.that what he's doing isn't within the law. I -- tax-payers -- tax
:33:50. > :33:55.problems, what he is doing isn't within the law. I remember the
:33:55. > :34:00.phrase George Osborne used in the budget, that was about excessive
:34:00. > :34:04.tax avoidance, as if a little bit is OK, we have talked about ISAs
:34:04. > :34:08.and pensions, and a lot isn't OK. Who is drawing the line? This is a
:34:08. > :34:13.debate within Government. But the Government, I disagree
:34:13. > :34:15.fundamentally with Jacob and his position. The position is the
:34:15. > :34:19.Government have identified, for example, that there were people
:34:19. > :34:22.working for the Government as individuals who were organising
:34:22. > :34:26.their affairs, so they weren't paid directly as salaries. And therefore,
:34:26. > :34:30.paying the tax in the normal way, pay as your concern, they were
:34:30. > :34:35.managing their affairs to pay less. That has been ended, the Government
:34:35. > :34:39.is to track down where they are, and everybody will pay tax properly.
:34:39. > :34:43.I have discovered there are increasing numbers of organisations,
:34:43. > :34:49.companies, whoa work for the gofpl, they do public -- who work for the
:34:49. > :34:54.Government, they do public services. They pay far less than they would
:34:54. > :34:57.under corporation tax. There must be an absolute ruthless
:34:57. > :35:01.determination to make sure people don't evade or avoid tax. And
:35:01. > :35:05.individuals must be subject to the same rules. That is why the debate
:35:05. > :35:11.earlier this year by the called tycoon tax. Everybody should be
:35:11. > :35:18.expected pay a don't proportion of their income earned in this country
:35:18. > :35:23.into the revenue pockets. Do you think this will work out to be tax
:35:23. > :35:27.evasion? I think the scheme that was reported in the Times, sounds
:35:27. > :35:33.too good to be true. It is therefore extremely unlikely it is
:35:33. > :35:35.allowed by revenue rules. What Mr Hughes said was very important, on
:35:35. > :35:40.the Government employees paid through their companies. He said
:35:40. > :35:45.they weren't correctly paid. That is the point. If it is inderbgt it
:35:45. > :35:51.should be -- incorrect it should be stopped F it is legal, people
:35:52. > :35:57.should not be able and encouraged to pay their views.
:35:57. > :36:01.-- dues. I know the Times is looking into Gary Barlow, just
:36:01. > :36:08.received an honour for the Jubilee concert, do you think that should
:36:08. > :36:12.be revised if it turns out to be right? I don't think you can undone,
:36:12. > :36:16.in normal circumstances, about what has been done. There is a situation,
:36:16. > :36:22.and I can't comment on the tax arrangements of the two named
:36:22. > :36:25.people T seems we have an honours scrutiny committee that rewards
:36:25. > :36:29.people for public service. If those people aren't paying their public
:36:29. > :36:32.dues in the normal way, and trying to reduce them to nothing or almost
:36:32. > :36:37.nothing. There is a question for the honours committee in the future
:36:37. > :36:42.asking are they the sort of people we should honour. I wish this was a
:36:42. > :36:49.column in the honours' committee work that was ticked to make sure
:36:49. > :36:55.they pay taxes properly at the level people would expect.
:36:55. > :36:59.havens for free speech go, Ecuador doesn't natural low jump to the top
:37:00. > :37:05.of the list. That makes Julian Assange's choice for asylum a
:37:05. > :37:15.little more odd.'S holed up there, to avoid extradition to Sweden
:37:15. > :37:19.where he's wanted for sex all racial gaigss. Why Ecuador, --
:37:19. > :37:24.Allegation. Why Ecuador, the relationship that started with a
:37:24. > :37:29.conversation over it. Tfts perfect place for Charles Darwin to study
:37:29. > :37:36.the origin of species, it is perfect for oil spectators and
:37:36. > :37:42.banana planters. Why is Ecuador one of the best places of the called
:37:42. > :37:46.heads of freedom of expression have resided. Few irthan -- few people
:37:46. > :37:53.have access to the web. Their President, Rafael Correa, according
:37:53. > :37:58.to the a leading human rights organisation. Frequently rebukes
:37:58. > :38:03.journalists and media that criticise him. And has taken
:38:03. > :38:08.reporters to court on the ierb you auto. He has just gone to Ecuador
:38:08. > :38:15.to ask for political asylum, given that the Ecuadorian Government is
:38:15. > :38:20.not so friendly with the journalists. The lead in equatorial
:38:20. > :38:25.newspapers was fine with $40 million, and a sentence of three
:38:25. > :38:32.years to the three directors. Julian Assange isn't always picky
:38:32. > :38:39.about his friends. While hosting a show on Russia Today, widely seen
:38:39. > :38:46.as a Kremlin mouth piece. He became pally with Ecuador's public leader.
:38:46. > :38:55.TRANSLATION: It is a pleasure to meet you Julian, welcome to the
:38:55. > :39:00.club of the persecuted. Ecuador has been on a left-wing and anti-
:39:00. > :39:06.America course. Pursuing disputes with Chevron, and most importantly
:39:06. > :39:11.for Assange, expeling the American ambassador over WikiLeaks leaks
:39:11. > :39:16.allegations. There is support among the public and towards others is
:39:16. > :39:20.great. Perhaps encouraging Assange suits Ecuador's leader, and his
:39:20. > :39:25.regional ambitions. If he take as lead on this, that will put him in
:39:25. > :39:31.a very strong political position, in the whole region, the whole
:39:31. > :39:35.Latin American region. Also next year there are elections in Ecuador,
:39:35. > :39:39.that will boost his popularity. Lawyers can't think of any similar
:39:39. > :39:44.recent case, where someone's asked for political asylum in an embassy
:39:44. > :39:49.in London. Julian Assange's disappearance into
:39:49. > :39:54.this building yesterday was an act of desperation. Moated if he goes
:39:54. > :40:00.to Sweden he will be extradited from there to the United States, on
:40:00. > :40:04.charges of he is peenags naj. The chances of him making -- espionage,
:40:04. > :40:10.the chances of him making it out are slim.
:40:10. > :40:14.He would have to persuade Ecuador, the grounds of%cation, the legal
:40:14. > :40:20.grounds for asylum, and get out of this building without being
:40:20. > :40:26.arrested for jumping bail. That would be dependant on whether
:40:26. > :40:31.Ecuador would risk the diplomatic incident to arise, to have a
:40:31. > :40:36.fugutive in an ambassadoral car, I don't think the people would be
:40:36. > :40:39.prepared to cause that international incident. Perhaps
:40:39. > :40:46.Sweden, where he faces rape allegations, could protect him
:40:46. > :40:51.since the US authorities? I can't manage any circumstances where weed
:40:51. > :40:57.or any other country would give a prospective guarantee that in no
:40:57. > :41:03.way it would extradite an individual. Does that mean he's
:41:03. > :41:10.bound by an espionage title in the States. It is hard to know if they
:41:10. > :41:15.want to do that and put him on trial for espionage allegations, it
:41:15. > :41:24.is difficult to know. Will Julian Assange find himself back on the
:41:24. > :41:31.British streets? I wouldn't be surprised tomorrow if the
:41:31. > :41:39.Government don't push pressure on them. Assange is making his case
:41:39. > :41:43.again today?'S Upcalm and calm and optimistic. As the British people
:41:43. > :41:48.wait outside, even man as resourceful as Julian Assange hey
:41:48. > :41:52.be running out of actions. The Red Cross says its teams are still
:41:52. > :41:58.waiting to enter the Syrian city of Homs, where hundreds of civilians
:41:58. > :42:03.are in desperate need of help. Government forces and rebels agreed
:42:03. > :42:09.to a two-hour ceasefire because of things going through. Meanwhile in
:42:09. > :42:11.Egypt, the post-revolutionary turmoil continues. The election
:42:11. > :42:16.authorities have delayed the announcement of the winner of the
:42:17. > :42:21.presidential election, which was due tomorrow.
:42:21. > :42:27.Prince Hassan of Jordan has joined to us discuss this. Syria, does it
:42:27. > :42:31.seem to you that what we are dealing with is a revolution, or a
:42:31. > :42:37.civil war? It is a revolution at the present time, being induced by
:42:37. > :42:42.the Security Council itself. If I can be outspoken. On the one side
:42:42. > :42:52.you have Russia and China, adamant they will not see a fighting end to
:42:52. > :42:52.
:42:52. > :42:57.this war. As President Vladimir Putin it, and the Mexican President,
:42:57. > :43:01.at the G20, they need a political solution, which means dialogue, and
:43:01. > :43:06.the fighting. Of course, the western countries on the other side
:43:06. > :43:10.were talking about Chapter seven and upgrading the military
:43:10. > :43:18.intention potential. If there is no movement from China, can a solution
:43:18. > :43:23.be found? The solution cannot be found. We know on the nuclear issue,
:43:23. > :43:30.nothing has moved on Iran in the Moscow talks. And on July 1st, the
:43:30. > :43:35.nuclear issue is being discussed. On July we have the situation of
:43:35. > :43:44.terror on terror, the traditional states in the gulf, supporting the
:43:44. > :43:48.Sunni against the Shia from Iran. In Iraq Syria and Lebanon they have
:43:48. > :43:55.fear of that access. And there is the basic issue of Iran, any action
:43:55. > :44:02.against Syria could bring Iran in. Should Bashar Al-Assad go, is
:44:02. > :44:07.Syria's leader the root use of it? Definitely he should go, as
:44:07. > :44:11.President Putin has made it clear. He should go as a result of the
:44:11. > :44:16.wishes of the Syrian people. As you know, the UN, and rash league,
:44:16. > :44:20.negotiator is Kofi Annan. You think he's a force for bad in that
:44:21. > :44:24.country? There is so many force force bad, if one could put it in
:44:24. > :44:28.simplistic terms. In terms of Presidents all over the world. I
:44:28. > :44:34.think the effect of his going in a vacuum could lead to that civil war
:44:34. > :44:39.you asked about initially. What you think, itst that fragmentation of
:44:39. > :44:44.the region or the country? I think of the region. Sectarian violence
:44:44. > :44:51.that would be unbelievable. One observer put it, the eurocrisis may
:44:51. > :44:55.be a disaster, but something along those lines in our region would be
:44:55. > :45:01.mayhem...Post-election, In Egypt, do you think of Egypt as being a
:45:01. > :45:08.success story of the Arab Spring? The Arab Spring grew from things
:45:08. > :45:15.that we all believed in, they are no longer runnings the show. The
:45:15. > :45:21.military have stepped in and the Islamic Muslim Brotherhood have
:45:21. > :45:24.become front runners. Was it worth it, people who were not involved in
:45:24. > :45:28.the process in the first place, are now claiming they have a right to
:45:28. > :45:32.rool. That must be something many young people are asking -- rule.
:45:32. > :45:38.That must be something everyone is asking themselves about. You knew
:45:38. > :45:44.Hosni Mubarak, we know he lies on his death bed now, for many in the
:45:44. > :45:50.west he was the acceptable face of Arab leadership in. Do you wonder
:45:50. > :45:54.about the choice that has been made and ask why tfps? I got back to the
:45:54. > :45:59.question about sad leadership, you can't in the west say so and so is
:45:59. > :46:07.good, because he's pro-western. And his own people will rise up against
:46:07. > :46:17.him and call for change, will the military step in.
:46:17. > :46:17.
:46:17. > :47:08.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 50 seconds
:47:08. > :47:18.That is all tonight, good evening, plenty more tonight.
:47:18. > :47:20.
:47:20. > :47:23.Heavy downpours and thunderstorms across the southern half of the UK
:47:23. > :47:27.tonight. The wet weather spreads north during tomorrow. The far
:47:27. > :47:31.North West of Scotland may stay dry, elsewhere expect downpours,
:47:32. > :47:37.something brighter in the south. The sunshine may spark further
:47:37. > :47:41.heavier showers across the Midlands, even England during the afternoon.
:47:41. > :47:45.Brightness could lift the temperatures up to 20. It is cloudy
:47:45. > :47:50.in the afternoon across the south west. Thunderstorms here at the
:47:50. > :47:56.moment, they disappear and dry up. The same goes across South Wales,
:47:56. > :48:00.dryer for the time here but another spell of hot weather during the
:48:00. > :48:08.afternoon. Heavy showers in Northern Ireland and temperatures
:48:08. > :48:13.significantly lower than Wednesday. Warmer across the highlands for a
:48:13. > :48:18.time. Turning cloudy here, concentration on eastern Scotland.
:48:18. > :48:22.More wet weather to come on Friday, North Wales, North West England and
:48:22. > :48:30.Scotland. That could build up and may cause a few problems. Further