:00:13. > :00:17.Tonight, the biggest shake up for England's schools in decades,
:00:17. > :00:21.splits the coalition. The Government is considering the
:00:21. > :00:24.return of O-level, and the scrapping of GCSEs, plans which
:00:24. > :00:30.have already been condemned as devisive, and taking England back
:00:30. > :00:34.to the 1950s. This is self- evidently not policy that has been
:00:34. > :00:38.discussed or agreed within the coalition Government. Will this
:00:38. > :00:42.tackle the culture of competitive dumbing down, as the Education
:00:42. > :00:45.Secretary claims. We will hear from the politician, a leading education
:00:45. > :00:49.campaigner, and a former headteacher. The comedian Jimmy
:00:49. > :00:53.Carr gets serious over his tax avoidance scheme, but why did the
:00:53. > :00:57.Prime Minister single him out for criticism. Why not some prominent
:00:57. > :01:02.Conservative supporting tax avoiders. I'm not going to give a
:01:02. > :01:06.running commentry on different people's tax affairs, that would be
:01:06. > :01:11.right, I made an exception yesterday. We will here from guests,
:01:11. > :01:15.including a fellow comedian. Is this what Egyptians struggled for
:01:15. > :01:18.in Tahrir Square, no President, no parliament, and perhaps a creeping
:01:18. > :01:24.military takeover. Two leading Egyptian writers and thinkers
:01:24. > :01:32.ponder the future of the Arab Spring. As the eurocrisis deepens,
:01:32. > :01:35.British banks have been downgraded. We will have the latest.
:01:35. > :01:39.Good evening, if there's anyone close to you tonight, who has
:01:39. > :01:44.worked at school for several years, for the privilege of sitting this
:01:44. > :01:47.summer's GCSE, then perhaps now is not a good time to tell them the
:01:47. > :01:50.examines represent what the Education Secretary -- exams
:01:50. > :01:54.represent what the he had case secretary called the culture of
:01:54. > :02:04.competitive dumbing down. Michael Gove wants to scrap GCSEs in
:02:04. > :02:07.England, it is the most thorough overhaul in decades. His coalition
:02:07. > :02:12.partners are in deep shock over the prospect. It was only over
:02:12. > :02:17.breakfast reading the Daily Mail that they first heard of it. Frbgts
:02:17. > :02:22.what I want is facts, -- What I want is facts, nothing but facts.
:02:22. > :02:27.Facts alone are what is wanted in life. Dickens gave us the obsession
:02:27. > :02:31.with facts and facts alone, but when it comes to schooling, there
:02:31. > :02:38.are infinate schools of thought, all contentious. 100 years after
:02:38. > :02:44.Hard Times, the politicians made the running, Butler's Education Act
:02:44. > :02:50.gave us the 11-Plus gram matter schools. In Kenneth Baker, the O-
:02:50. > :02:56.level was out and GCSE in. Now under Gove t looks like the GCSE
:02:56. > :03:00.goes and the E level returns. It is Mr Gove -- O-level returns. It is
:03:00. > :03:03.Mr Gove big idea, and a lot of people want to kill T I think there
:03:03. > :03:07.is more negative than positive and that is unfortunate. The problem is
:03:07. > :03:12.he has too many strong view, he expresses them too readily, and he
:03:12. > :03:17.doesn't do enough thinking before he blurts it out. The Mail called
:03:17. > :03:23.Michael Gove the cabinet's one true Tory. They got today's leak, in
:03:23. > :03:28.which he regards as GCSEs as far too easy, they cite questions just
:03:28. > :03:35.as how do you view the moon, through a microscope, or telescope,
:03:35. > :03:42.as a prime example. They will have no place in Mr Gove's reborn,
:03:42. > :03:52.rigorous O-levels. What are termed less intelligent pupils there will
:03:52. > :03:57.be exams on how to read a railway timetable. Mr Gof's - Gove's
:03:57. > :04:00.explanations were not discussed with anyone. Mr Gove was called to
:04:00. > :04:06.the Commons at 11.00am this morning, to explain exactly what was going
:04:06. > :04:09.on. We want to tackle the culture competitive dumbing down, by making
:04:09. > :04:13.your exam boards cannot compete with each other on the basis of how
:04:13. > :04:16.easy their exams are. And we want a curriculum that prepares all
:04:16. > :04:23.students for success, at 16 and beyond, by broadening what is
:04:23. > :04:28.taught in our schools, and then improving how it is assessed.
:04:28. > :04:32.may well need improving, but a two- teir exam system that divides
:04:32. > :04:37.children into winners and losers at 14 is not the answer. Nick Clegg
:04:37. > :04:41.was left stuck up a Gumtree by the whole negotiation, after touring
:04:41. > :04:45.the rainforest for the Earth Summit in Rio, he said no-one had
:04:45. > :04:50.consulted his side of the coalition about O-levels. This is self-
:04:50. > :04:53.evidently not policy that has either been discussed or agreed
:04:53. > :04:59.with the coalition Government. I would simply say this on the exam
:04:59. > :05:02.system, of course we need to make sure we constantly improve the exam
:05:02. > :05:07.system so it is rigorous and stretching, but we need to design
:05:07. > :05:11.an exam system for the future, not turn the clock back to the past.
:05:11. > :05:14.Michael Gove is a Renaissance Man, who wrote leaders for the Times,
:05:14. > :05:18.and worked on political programmes for the BBC. He also takes a keen
:05:18. > :05:23.interest in the arts. He was a regular on Newsnight review. As a
:05:23. > :05:28.critic he was inseesive and impressive. Reviews of his own
:05:28. > :05:33.performances as a sat teirist, are rather more mixed. The Chancellor,
:05:33. > :05:38.Norman Lamont, through a party for his 50th birthday, he clocked up
:05:38. > :05:42.the half century two week ago, but he waited until half the event to
:05:42. > :05:45.celebrate, that is a change to the policy he has adopted to the
:05:45. > :05:51.economic recovery, he left that for months and there is no sign of it
:05:51. > :05:57.happening. Michael Gove's seven years in
:05:57. > :06:03.parliament have seen him produce an abundance of ideas, and it has
:06:03. > :06:06.increased during his time in office. Michael Gove is an idealist, and
:06:06. > :06:09.there are few of those operate anything politics nowadays. The
:06:09. > :06:14.advantage of being an idealist is you know where you are going, and
:06:14. > :06:17.Michael Gove clearly has a vision, which he is striving to achieve. So
:06:17. > :06:22.far that has been extremely successful. He hasn't been held up
:06:22. > :06:26.by the business of being in coalition. This week alone, Michael
:06:26. > :06:30.Gove's drawn the ire of Lord Leveson, after complaining his
:06:30. > :06:34.inquiry into the media is threatening freedom. Now he has
:06:34. > :06:37.thrown the education department, his coalition partners, and the
:06:37. > :06:42.Tory chairman of the education select committee, into a fit over
:06:42. > :06:46.O-levels. How will a two-teir system benefit those who are
:06:46. > :06:50.currently being left behind, how will increase social mobility, a
:06:50. > :06:53.central aim of this Government, quite rightly the education
:06:53. > :06:57.department has two main goals, raise standards for all, and close
:06:57. > :07:02.the gap between rich and poor. that from his own side, it is no
:07:02. > :07:06.surprise there is no love lost for Mr Gove among the teaching unions.
:07:06. > :07:09.It's yet another blurt from Michael Gove, which I think has not been
:07:09. > :07:13.thought through. What do you mean by that? He blurts out policies,
:07:13. > :07:17.and then he has to start retracting and retrenching, because people are
:07:17. > :07:23.saying this hasn't been discussed or thought through. On Monday
:07:23. > :07:29.Michael Gove left the House of Commons bemused with this.
:07:29. > :07:34.Robert Burns, that great poet once fact, facts are chill that is won a
:07:34. > :07:41.ding. Facts are facts, and facts don't lie, even Dickens would agree.
:07:41. > :07:46.Who only live by fact. Marsha Carey-Elms is a recently
:07:46. > :07:49.retired headteacher, both of a high-achieving grammar school and
:07:49. > :07:55.comprehensive. Sir George Young is parent who has campaigned big --
:07:55. > :07:59.Toby Young is a parent who has campaigned for changes, Hinds is a
:07:59. > :08:04.Conservative MP who supports Michael Gove, and Tom Brake, Lib
:08:04. > :08:09.Dem, is also with us. What is wrong with GCSEs? They are just not
:08:09. > :08:17.intellectually demanding enough. We can see that from England's,
:08:17. > :08:23.Britain's fall in its league table position in the PISA OECD league
:08:23. > :08:27.stables You see it you don't get very much at the top? They fail at
:08:28. > :08:33.the top and the bottom W the complaints we have heard today, if
:08:33. > :08:38.you reintroduce O-levels and GCSEs you will leave lots alienated. If
:08:38. > :08:41.you look at Singapore were they do O-level, 80% of children do it. The
:08:41. > :08:45.problem with the present system is 40% of children don't get a passing
:08:45. > :08:49.grade T fails 40% of children at present. A lot of people have been
:08:49. > :08:53.saying there is a problem with the GCSE, there is no point ducking it,
:08:53. > :08:56.there is a problem here? We need one system for all young people.
:08:56. > :09:00.need one that works, don't we? was Margaret Thatcher who brought
:09:00. > :09:03.in the GCSE. We need to see it does work for young people. If there is
:09:03. > :09:09.an issue about standards at the top, that needs to be addressed. What
:09:09. > :09:12.you shouldn't do is separate 14- year-olds into sheep and goats,
:09:12. > :09:15.first-class and second-class, and write off a whole generation of
:09:15. > :09:20.young people who will not be able to get the essential qualifications
:09:20. > :09:23.they need to succeed. The thing about GCSE standards, we are
:09:23. > :09:27.talking about standards for 16- year-olds at basic standards, we
:09:27. > :09:31.are not talking about a level at grade C should be attainable for
:09:31. > :09:37.every young person, we need all young people to get to that
:09:37. > :09:40.standard and we shouldn't write them sof. This is like the grammar
:09:40. > :09:45.schools debate, some people want them back, it is not about the
:09:45. > :09:48.secondary modern back? We asked people to do a lot with GCSE and
:09:48. > :09:52.the breath they cover. There has been grade inflation in the last
:09:52. > :09:55.few years, leading to an erosion in confidence in exams. Today's
:09:55. > :09:58.discussion is not just about the exams themselves, but it is also
:09:58. > :10:03.about that competition in the system, between Exam Boards, it is
:10:03. > :10:07.about the pressures on schools at the C-D borderline, and some of the
:10:07. > :10:11.crazy incentives that involves. As Toby was saying, we have a two-teir
:10:11. > :10:15.system today in terms of the children and young people who are
:10:16. > :10:20.left behind. Do you accept that, a, there is a problem, and b, this
:10:20. > :10:22.might be the way to fix it? accept we need to look at the
:10:22. > :10:26.system. I don't think there is an enormous problem. I'm not sure this
:10:26. > :10:31.is the answer. I think that from the point of view of the most
:10:31. > :10:35.academic child, right through to the most challenging, the GCSE can
:10:35. > :10:39.and does work. If you have inspired and good teachers and good planning,
:10:39. > :10:43.you can differentiate lessons such that you can stretch the most able
:10:43. > :10:48.and you can engage the most challenging child. So I definitely
:10:48. > :10:51.don't like the idea of the devisiveness of writing some
:10:51. > :10:56.children off, because there are many young children who are late
:10:57. > :11:02.developers, and who, indeed, can cope, and want to achieve well.
:11:02. > :11:05.I'm puzzled by this phrase, the "two-teir system", surely there is
:11:05. > :11:08.one already. There are some children who do maths and sciences
:11:08. > :11:12.and Latin, and employers understand that, and there are other children
:11:12. > :11:14.who do media studies and leisure, and so on, and employers also
:11:14. > :11:20.understand that. They are probably not going to go to the best
:11:20. > :11:23.universities? I think what this would do, with O-level, and CSEs,
:11:23. > :11:26.or something equivalent t would entrench it further. It was
:11:26. > :11:30.interesting that the detail of what's been reported in terms of
:11:30. > :11:34.the leak, there is an awful lot in there about O-levels and the
:11:34. > :11:37.tougher exams, and actually very little about what the 25% who
:11:37. > :11:41.wouldn't be expected do this higher level exam would actually be able
:11:41. > :11:44.to do. Isn't that the point, you were saying it is not
:11:44. > :11:49.intellectually challenging enough at the top end, what is in it for
:11:49. > :11:54.the people at the bottom end. They are told at age 14 you are too dim
:11:54. > :11:59.to sit a proper exam, you will get a second-grade exam? You are
:11:59. > :12:04.talking like it would be an irreparable blow to these
:12:04. > :12:09.children's self-esteem. This may shock you, I sat C se.s in several
:12:09. > :12:14.subject, half in O-levels and half in CSEs, it didn't do irreparable
:12:14. > :12:19.damage to my self-esteem, I recovered, I retook the other exams,
:12:19. > :12:23.I took three A-levels and went on to Oxford. It is possible to have a
:12:23. > :12:27.two-teir system and retain your self-esteem. Some people fail and
:12:27. > :12:31.we have to get used to it? If all the people were like Toby Young we
:12:31. > :12:36.wouldn't have a problem and people would know how to get on. In my
:12:36. > :12:42.school in the 1970 half of those who entered for O-level and those
:12:42. > :12:46.to CSE, the CSEs had the worst teachers, the lowest aspiration, no
:12:46. > :12:50.expectation to stay on after 16, or going on to do higher level
:12:50. > :12:54.qualifications over the age of 16. We do not want to go back to that
:12:54. > :12:59.world. Margaret Thatcher brought in the GCSE in the 1980s. If this is
:12:59. > :13:04.such a great idea, why was it not in the Conservative manifesto and
:13:04. > :13:08.the coalition document. Is it just worth in straight forward political
:13:08. > :13:13.terms for having a great big row with the Liberal Democrats over
:13:13. > :13:17.something you never promised and didn't put down. To go with Lord
:13:17. > :13:22.Adonis's point, nobody wants to go back to that world that he outlined.
:13:22. > :13:25.It is about exams with the right depth and brept to make them useful
:13:25. > :13:30.for young people what has changed is school or college going up to 18
:13:30. > :13:34.for all young people. You can do the core skills in English and
:13:34. > :13:38.mathematics, equipping you for life and work, and then doing a higher
:13:38. > :13:43.exam at 18 and beyond. You didn't think of mentioning it at any point
:13:43. > :13:46.until now during the coalition agreement and so on? The timing of
:13:46. > :13:50.today's leak is not ideal. Sometimes these things happen, now
:13:50. > :13:54.there is going to be a debate, that is a good and healthy thing. It was
:13:54. > :13:57.a deliberate leak, wasn't it? have no reason to believe it was.
:13:57. > :14:02.Presumably you choked on your cornflakes when you read it this
:14:02. > :14:05.morning? I did, but as I understand it, so did Number Ten, so did the
:14:05. > :14:09.Deputy Prime Minister, and at least one Education Minister. This is
:14:09. > :14:14.something I think Michael Gove has floated as an idea. You see it as a
:14:14. > :14:18.blurt, do you, as the lady said in the film? That is an accurate way
:14:18. > :14:21.of decribing it. Now it has to go back in house, and the broad
:14:21. > :14:24.conversation that Michael Gove said he wanted to have, that has to
:14:24. > :14:27.happen within the coalition Government. Would it be a deal-
:14:27. > :14:33.breaker for the coalition Government, I understand from The
:14:33. > :14:37.People's Podium who think this wouldn't need primary lepblgs --
:14:37. > :14:41.people, who think this wouldn't need primary legislation, it could
:14:41. > :14:44.just go through? The first thing with schools is we have to tackle
:14:44. > :14:50.inequality I have to ask the supporters of this proposal, how
:14:50. > :14:56.would it tackle inequality. shouldn't lose sight of the fact
:14:56. > :15:02.you can do O-levels in the present system, they are called IGCSE, and
:15:02. > :15:04.regarded as good as the old O-level. You can only do them at independent
:15:04. > :15:09.schools, since the change of Government they have begun to be
:15:09. > :15:13.taken up in state schools. Before 2010 you could only do them in
:15:13. > :15:19.independent schools. That means only the children of the well off
:15:19. > :15:25.have access to the intellectually rigorous exams. Under the new two-
:15:25. > :15:31.teir system, at least if you take the intellectually challenging exam
:15:31. > :15:36.will be down to intellectual merit? That is not true, there are lots of
:15:36. > :15:39.things like IGCSE that is we can look. To let's not forget the
:15:39. > :15:43.children in this debate. There are hundreds of thousands of children
:15:43. > :15:46.take their GCSEs as we speak, it is rotten for them to be subject to
:15:46. > :15:50.the idea that what they are doing is going to be rubbished and not
:15:50. > :15:53.rigorous enough. Secondly those young people we say we don't think
:15:53. > :15:56.you are quite bright enough at the moment to take on something further,
:15:56. > :15:59.that is really knocking their confidence, and we don't want that
:15:59. > :16:03.in young people. Isn't it also a fact, unfortunately for some young
:16:03. > :16:07.people, that you are not going to go to university, or get A-levels,
:16:07. > :16:12.perhaps levelling at some point, it is going to happen in life some
:16:12. > :16:15.time? Twof keep people's expectations high. We have to build
:16:15. > :16:19.people's confidence. That is really a very negative thing, and we
:16:19. > :16:24.mustn't be giving that message to young people. Any child to who gets
:16:24. > :16:27.a decent education should be able to get a grade C in GCSE in English,
:16:27. > :16:30.maths and other subjects, that should be regarded as basic
:16:30. > :16:33.standard. If you don't regard it as a basic standard for all young
:16:33. > :16:39.people, then you are cutting the ladder of social mobility, you are
:16:39. > :16:44.moving back to a two-teir society, that is nowhere we need to be in
:16:44. > :16:50.the century. You are saying if our system worked better and 100% of
:16:50. > :16:54.children got a C in maths and two others in GCSE, it might be a
:16:54. > :16:59.preferable system. You have poured resources into t it has been tried
:16:59. > :17:02.for many years, since the Conservative Government introduced
:17:02. > :17:06.GCSE, the evidence s if you look at the league table, the evidence is
:17:06. > :17:10.it is not working, it is failing 40% of the children. That is why
:17:10. > :17:15.the Government, quite rightly, this is something we can agree on, are
:17:15. > :17:18.focusing on pupils who need the support the most through the pupil
:17:18. > :17:21.premium, that is providing very large sums of additional money,
:17:21. > :17:26.that is used very specifically to support the children who need it
:17:26. > :17:32.most. Troll make sure that they benefit -- really to make sure that
:17:32. > :17:36.they benefit from the system the way the majority do. The answer is
:17:36. > :17:39.not to give up on those, but to have more schools, he's pioneering
:17:39. > :17:42.a school that will be of high quality, schools to get to that
:17:42. > :17:45.high standard, than this fatalism that writes off large part of
:17:45. > :17:48.society, saying they are not capable of get to go basic
:17:48. > :17:53.educational standards. That is what those of us who have been involved
:17:53. > :17:57.in educational reform have been seeking to overcome. The system is
:17:57. > :18:01.biased against t there is so much focus on the five plus, C plus
:18:01. > :18:06.method, if you are a young person with no prospect of getting to a
:18:06. > :18:10.grade C in GCSE, the incentives are not in the system to do the best
:18:10. > :18:14.you can. The same goes to children at the top of the ability spectrum.
:18:14. > :18:21.You might look at making sure everybody at 16 goes away with
:18:21. > :18:27.qualification that is are relative and they can still build at 16 and
:18:27. > :18:31.18 beyond. We have to be optimistic, being a young person in 2012 is a
:18:31. > :18:35.difficult place to be there are lots of choice, there is rigour in
:18:35. > :18:39.the system. The young people have to cope with so much more, you
:18:39. > :18:44.can't make useful comparisons with the O-levels and today's exams. It
:18:44. > :18:47.was fact and learning by route, today you have to apply your droe,
:18:47. > :18:50.today you have to apply your knowledge and work things out, they
:18:50. > :18:55.have to do masses more than in the past. It is very difficult, it
:18:55. > :18:58.needs a measured debate, not kneejerk reactions, it needs a lot
:18:58. > :19:02.more discussion. Do you not see the merit in having one exam for
:19:02. > :19:07.everybody, a common standard for everybody, do you not see that as a
:19:07. > :19:11.good principle for education? problem with that is, the exam has
:19:11. > :19:14.to be too broad in order to encompass the entire broad range of
:19:14. > :19:18.the ability spectrum, which means that people at the top aren't going
:19:18. > :19:23.to be challenged enough by it, and people who least able will struggle
:19:23. > :19:26.to do it, what is wrong with having two. Can you see a coalition
:19:26. > :19:30.actually pushing this through? think that would be very difficult.
:19:30. > :19:33.I think what there is agreement on within the coalition is we need to
:19:33. > :19:37.raise standards. But there are ways of doing that. If there is an issue
:19:37. > :19:40.with the different exam boards saying to schools, look come with
:19:40. > :19:44.us, because actually you can get a better result, let's do something
:19:44. > :19:49.about that, and make sure there is a consistent standard. Is that
:19:49. > :19:52.common ground, do you agree with that, broadly, that it is?
:19:53. > :19:56.present Government has set up a quango specifically to push
:19:56. > :20:00.standards up in terms of the rigours of exams, that is
:20:00. > :20:04.absolutely right. What you mustn't do is cut the ground beneath A
:20:04. > :20:08.large proportion of teenagers who would be incapable of sitting exam
:20:08. > :20:11.that is would get them on in life. We mustn't go down that road.
:20:11. > :20:16.you very much. Now, the comedian, Jimmy Carr, has
:20:16. > :20:21.gone all serious today, he made a terrible error of judgment, and
:20:21. > :20:27.promises to conduct his financial affairs much more responsibly. His
:20:27. > :20:35.apology comes after big pilloried by the Prime Minister as "morally
:20:35. > :20:40.wrong", for an apparently ingenious tax evading scheme called K2. Gary
:20:40. > :20:50.Barlow, the Take That singer, who also used an avoidance scheme, has
:20:50. > :20:51.
:20:51. > :20:54.not been part of David Cameron's attack.
:20:54. > :21:00.Paul Mason Rowe reports. Here, heard the one about the Prime
:21:00. > :21:04.Minister who called a comedian "morally wrong", for avoiding tax?
:21:04. > :21:08.You have now as Jimmy Carr tried to get his head around a world where
:21:08. > :21:13.if you earn a lot of money you pay tax on it. David Cameron was trying
:21:13. > :21:16.to xain himself. In terms of people's tax -- Explain himself?
:21:16. > :21:19.terms of people's tax affairs, of course people can plan their tax
:21:19. > :21:22.affairs and put money into their pension, that can have an effect on
:21:22. > :21:26.their tax bill and all the rest of it. That is sensible, fair and
:21:26. > :21:29.reasonable. As the Chancellor of the Exchequer said, some of these
:21:29. > :21:33.aggressive, anti-avoidance schemes, that may not be illegal, are
:21:33. > :21:38.morally questionable. When it comes to tax avoidance, the
:21:38. > :21:40.old ones are the good ones, specifically the case of Inland
:21:40. > :21:45.Revenue versus the Duke of Westminster.
:21:45. > :21:55.The House of Lords ruled in 1935 that rich people were entitled to
:21:55. > :22:10.
:22:10. > :22:16.do as much as possible to avoid The UK is, in effect, like a tax
:22:16. > :22:18.haven. Not in the same way as say the BVI or Jersey, but there are
:22:18. > :22:23.certain provisions and encouragements that the Government
:22:23. > :22:28.brought in, to help people minimise the tax. With the purpose of
:22:28. > :22:33.probably creating employment, and creating growth. I can name you
:22:33. > :22:37.countless number of incentives, which, are, reducing tax, and which
:22:37. > :22:45.may be regarded as avoidance. But perfectly legal and have the
:22:45. > :22:49.blessing of the Treasury. It was in December 2010 that
:22:49. > :22:55.Britain's status as a legal tax haven started to look uncomfortable.
:22:55. > :22:59.Then it was Vodaphone getting it in the neck, and Philip Green, the
:22:59. > :23:01.boss of Arcadia, since then, the battle has widened. It is obvious
:23:01. > :23:05.there is a battle going on between the tax avoiders, the politicians
:23:05. > :23:10.and the state. It is up to the politicians to decide to win that
:23:10. > :23:13.battle. The tools to do it are available. We could have a general
:23:13. > :23:16.anti-avoidance principle, not a rule, because rules are always
:23:16. > :23:19.broken by accountant, but a principle that gives the power to
:23:19. > :23:25.the revenue to overrule artificial schemes, a tax them on the
:23:25. > :23:29.substance of what is really going The Inland Revenue has indeed
:23:29. > :23:33.proposed an anti-avoidance rule, not the stricter principle wanted
:23:33. > :23:36.by tax campaigners, but while the rule is out for consultation, the
:23:36. > :23:45.revenue has begun to act, cracking down on schemes using the movie
:23:45. > :23:49.business as a way to pay less tax. To some people paying tax is an
:23:49. > :23:54.anathama, and they want to reduce paying tax. If the incentive ace
:23:54. > :23:57.veilable don't work for them in whatever they are trying to do then
:23:57. > :24:01.they will resort to these schemes, and the ramifications are serious,
:24:01. > :24:05.if one has gone into one of these schemes, then probably, I have no
:24:05. > :24:08.evidence to support that, their card is marked by the revenue, they
:24:08. > :24:14.will question everything they do in the future, and probably look back
:24:14. > :24:18.in the past and see whether there has been any misdemeanors. Morality
:24:18. > :24:21.has never been a matter in the British tax system, if it was, the
:24:21. > :24:25.biggest problem would be this, only the rich and self-employed even
:24:25. > :24:31.have the opportunity to avoid tax. There is no Duke of Westminster
:24:31. > :24:35.principle for those on PAYE. In contrast to the case of Jimmy
:24:35. > :24:39.Carr, the Prime Minister refused to comment on the tax affairs of Gary
:24:39. > :24:44.Barlow, also reported to be using an aggressive tax avoidance scheme,
:24:44. > :24:49.but a Conservative supporter. When it came to Philip Green, the
:24:49. > :24:54.PM famously said, well he doesn't comment on individuals.
:24:54. > :24:57.For tax campaigners, there is an even bigger mixed message going on.
:24:58. > :25:02.On the one hand they are condemning Jimmy Carr for moving his money to
:25:02. > :25:05.Jersey, to use it effectively as a personal bank. And at the same time,
:25:05. > :25:09.quite literally at the moment, they are creating laws so that
:25:09. > :25:14.multinational corporations can move their money to use it as, well
:25:15. > :25:20.their personal bank, and either to pay no tax at all, or a maximum of
:25:20. > :25:24.5.5%, that is real hypocrisy. Britain's "fill your boots culture",
:25:24. > :25:33.on tax avoidance goes back decades. As austerity bites, it looks less
:25:33. > :25:37.and less funny. The comedian Marcus Brigstock was
:25:37. > :25:47.offered a tax scheme similar to Jimmy Carr and declined. Giles
:25:47. > :25:47.
:25:48. > :25:51.Fraser was former canon of St Paul's, and our other guest is with
:25:51. > :25:58.us. What were you offered? Something similar to Jimmy's, but
:25:58. > :26:02.with a sweet extra thing on the end. You give all of your earnings to
:26:02. > :26:10.this trust and they loan it back to you so you don't pay any tax on it.
:26:10. > :26:14.When you die they say you owe us all the money you have lone -- lone
:26:14. > :26:18.today us, we will take it all and your children don't have to pay tax.
:26:18. > :26:24.Just like Jimmy I made a massive error of judgment, and I said, no.
:26:24. > :26:28.Were you a mug in saying no? No, it wasn't something that I could do.
:26:28. > :26:33.But my comedy, the difference may be subtle to people outside, my
:26:33. > :26:39.comedy is a bit different from Jimmy's, he has never made any real
:26:39. > :26:43.claims for himself as a politically engaged comedian. He did the sketch
:26:43. > :26:49.about Barclays and their aggressive tax avoidance stuff, which, now,
:26:49. > :26:57.has made him look very, very stupid. It is the hypocrisy factor? In his
:26:57. > :27:01.own stand-up there isn't anything else. Certainly that sketch on
:27:01. > :27:07.10..00 Live, the ip pockcy has made him look fool -- the hypocrisy has
:27:07. > :27:11.made him look foolish. Do you think, to put a fine a point on it, he's a
:27:11. > :27:16.mug? The problem with comedians is they have a reputation management
:27:16. > :27:24.issue. If Jimmy Carr make as lot of money from left-leaning students
:27:24. > :27:30.paying money to go to his shows, and the Show was a left-leaning
:27:30. > :27:35.show, he has a reputation management problem. Are you happy
:27:35. > :27:39.to avoid tax legally when you can? I'm a tax dodger, I dodge tax in
:27:39. > :27:43.all sorts of ways. Some of it seems to be schemes the Government has
:27:43. > :27:48.intentionally set up, an ISA, tax relief on my pension contribution,
:27:48. > :27:55.I use that, that seems to be the Government's intention. To give awe
:27:55. > :28:01.recent example, a week ago I bought 600 cigarettes in Belgium, purely
:28:01. > :28:04.and entirely on the fact that they are five euros a pack, I bought
:28:04. > :28:11.them for one reason and one reason alone, to avoid the Government's
:28:11. > :28:14.tax, and the Government is �200 a year worse off. You should smoke
:28:14. > :28:20.them! The moral side of this, because it was the Prime Minister
:28:20. > :28:24.who raised that, is somebody more of a saint because they fess up and
:28:24. > :28:28.say here is the money back. Are they a sinner because they go off
:28:28. > :28:32.and buy cheap cigarettes in Belgium, or is it the scale of the thing
:28:32. > :28:36.that counts? We shouldn't make this a question about individuals, for
:28:36. > :28:39.me. I'm proud to pay tax, I think I'm proud to pay tax, I think we
:28:39. > :28:44.should get more into a culture of people being proud to pay tax, it
:28:44. > :28:50.is our subscription to living in a fair society. The problem s we have
:28:50. > :28:55.now a situation where, you know, the CEO pays less tax, as a pro-
:28:55. > :29:04.portion of his or her income, than the cleaner in that company. That
:29:04. > :29:09.situation is so grossly unfair and perceived to be widely. We can talk
:29:09. > :29:12.about border line calls, but you know it when you see it. What we
:29:12. > :29:16.see, not necessarily in Jimmy Carr, but in huge corporations paying
:29:16. > :29:20.very, very little, or almost zero tax, because they have clever
:29:20. > :29:27.accountants, not available to ordinary people. That is clearly
:29:27. > :29:31.wrong. We don't expect, presumably, these huge organisations to do What
:29:31. > :29:34.Car? Car did, being shamed into it, saying sorry and paying the money
:29:34. > :29:40.into it? That is why the Prime Minister is happy to name Jimmy,
:29:40. > :29:44.he's a face and lots of people know who he is, and he's quite useful. I
:29:44. > :29:47.have to say it was remarkably clumsy of Cameron, some of whose
:29:48. > :29:54.funders and closest friends are certainly in avoidance schemes very
:29:54. > :29:58.simple later to Jimmy's. Not just the companies that have -- similar
:29:58. > :30:03.to Jimmy's, not just companies but on a personal level. Jimmy is a
:30:03. > :30:08.comedian and he sticks himself out there and the Prime Minister can
:30:08. > :30:11.call him moral or immoral. How many companies have done what he has
:30:12. > :30:16.done, saying I'm terribly sorry, we got it wrong, we change our minds
:30:16. > :30:20.and will do it differently. There hasn't been any of that. Surely it
:30:20. > :30:24.should be a question more laugh than of shaming people into it. The
:30:24. > :30:28.law should say you have to pay up? In my view, I don't want to hear
:30:28. > :30:32.David Cameron's moral judgment ones Jimmy Carr's tax affairs, his
:30:32. > :30:36.marital status, sex life or anything else. I'm not interested
:30:36. > :30:40.in David Cameron's morality, David Cameron, Frances Osborne and Danny
:30:40. > :30:43.Alexander set the rulebook, it is 15,000-pages long. It is impossible
:30:43. > :30:46.for any single human being to understand the tax code of this
:30:46. > :30:51.country. But Cameron, Osborne and Alexander control that. Some people
:30:51. > :30:54.understand how to get round the tax code in this country, it would
:30:54. > :30:58.appear? In that case Frances Osborne and David Cameron need to
:30:58. > :31:04.change the rules. It is like Sepp Blatter saying it is a moral
:31:04. > :31:08.outrage there isn't video refereeing. It is in his control.
:31:08. > :31:11.The rules can't cover all the eventualities, you have the rules
:31:11. > :31:14.and you can find clever ways around them. You need something to jun pin
:31:14. > :31:17.the rules, something you might call a sense of responsibility or
:31:17. > :31:20.something to do with moralty. I may have a different one to the Prime
:31:20. > :31:24.Minister. But there needs to be a sense of the common good, something
:31:24. > :31:27.about fairness. Not everybody has got it, as you well know, tough
:31:27. > :31:33.legislate for that, you have to legislate for people who will only
:31:33. > :31:40.do it if they are shamed into it? I'm not saying take the law away,
:31:40. > :31:43.the law is important, and it is worth looking at tax avoidance
:31:43. > :31:47.legislation. That is easy to sort out without statute. We used to
:31:47. > :31:51.have a lot of common law cases. What hinges legally and morally is
:31:51. > :31:55.was this Jimmy Carr's income, it should be treated as income for
:31:55. > :31:58.revenue reasons, or wasn't it. We need a much more simple code that
:31:58. > :32:01.threets, for example, what you get in income and what you get in
:32:01. > :32:04.capital games, on the same percentage, not different
:32:04. > :32:09.percentage, because everybody plays silly games with T I reckon we
:32:09. > :32:14.should be able to get the principles of the code down in 15-
:32:14. > :32:17.pages not 15,000. They are already ahead of any possible legislation,
:32:17. > :32:21.that is the game they are in. They take a percentage from these
:32:21. > :32:25.schemes, and so anything that they come up with, the IFAs are ready
:32:26. > :32:29.just to make the next step round. I don't know whether it is actually
:32:29. > :32:34.possible to legislation against this. I do this, if Frances Osborne
:32:34. > :32:40.and David Cameron, are trying to make some -- George Osborne and
:32:40. > :32:44.David Cameron are making some political capital they much make a
:32:44. > :32:47.bigger effort than thus far. seemed to be a good thing for this
:32:47. > :32:52.country, that the Prime Minister says f there's high tax rates in
:32:52. > :32:55.France and these rich people from France want to come here, we will
:32:55. > :32:58.welcome them? That was the day before he made a moral judgment
:32:58. > :33:04.about Jimy. Saying you are paying too much in France, -- Jimy. Saying
:33:04. > :33:08.you are paying too much in France, come over here. Supposing for
:33:08. > :33:13.example, Jimmy Carr decided to become an American citizen, and
:33:13. > :33:18.work in the United Kingdom for 50- 60 days a year as a cheedian, and
:33:18. > :33:26.pay all of his tax -- comedian, and pay all of his taxes in the staid
:33:26. > :33:30.of Texas, would that be immoral? Fair number of people become
:33:30. > :33:33.citizens of Monaco for tax reasons. This conversation is not going off
:33:33. > :33:36.in the wrong direction, but unless it is underpinned by a sense of
:33:36. > :33:40.possibility, you will always find clever people who will get round T
:33:40. > :33:45.the idea that you actually have a sense of shame about not paying
:33:45. > :33:50.your taxes properly, it seems to me that's something, people brag about
:33:50. > :33:53.it and think it is a jolly good thing they pay no tax. The sense of
:33:53. > :33:58.shame should been what you do with your money, that need not be about
:33:58. > :34:03.handing it over in tax, it is about your overall contribution to
:34:03. > :34:06.society, or to charity. Egypt is still without a
:34:06. > :34:10.democratically elected President tonight, a the Election Commission
:34:10. > :34:13.refuses to say who has won. Tahrir Square, more than a year after the
:34:13. > :34:19.fall of the Mubarak regime, continues its now familiar display
:34:19. > :34:23.of protest. Stoked up by the newly assumed military rule. For years
:34:24. > :34:28.people across the Arab world have looked to Egypt, the strongest and
:34:28. > :34:31.most populist Arab country for leadership. Now Egypt is in
:34:32. > :34:35.political limbo, or worse. Our diplomatic editor has recently
:34:35. > :34:39.returned from Egypt. Where are these presidential results that we
:34:39. > :34:43.were supposed to have had? There was initially talk of having them
:34:44. > :34:48.yesterday, then today. Now it has been postponed, there is some
:34:48. > :34:54.rumours in Cairo tonight that it might come out at the weekend.
:34:54. > :34:59.Meanwhile Ahmed Shafiq, one of the candidates, who most people think
:34:59. > :35:02.have lost, tonight declared he was the winner, even though most of the
:35:02. > :35:06.accounts people have suggest he isn't the winner. And the other
:35:06. > :35:09.candidate, Mohammed Morsi, the man backed by the Muslim Brotherhood's
:35:09. > :35:15.political Government, the Freedom and Justice Party. Most people
:35:15. > :35:19.think he has just under% more votes and he should be the winner. As it
:35:19. > :35:24.stand -- 2% more votes and he should be the winner. As it stands
:35:24. > :35:30.we have no winner. How have the people been responding to all of
:35:30. > :35:34.this? The public response has been curious in a way. A week ago this
:35:34. > :35:40.extraordinary judgment came out of the Supreme Court dissolving
:35:40. > :35:44.parliament. This had been elected with a very large prepondrance of
:35:44. > :35:50.the members from the Muslim Brotherhood and Salafists, they
:35:50. > :35:53.said the lot of them can go due to a technicality in Egyptian law.
:35:53. > :35:57.Many of us expected huge demonstrations to protest this,
:35:57. > :36:01.virtually nothing happened. The question now is that each move that
:36:01. > :36:04.the military council, the Supreme Council of the Armed Forces, or
:36:04. > :36:08.SKAF makes, seems to be calibrated by the reaction it causes or
:36:08. > :36:11.doesn't cause. It seems that the absence of reaction, to the
:36:11. > :36:15.disillusion have of -- dissolution of parliament, led them to take
:36:15. > :36:19.this staggering step, if you like, on Sunday night, pretty much
:36:19. > :36:24.reversing all of the gains of the revolution, apart from the ousted
:36:24. > :36:29.of Hosni Mubarak, and to take this step to give themselves these
:36:30. > :36:34.extraordinary powers. If Dr Mohammed Morsi is made President,
:36:34. > :36:38.he won't be able to scrutinise or sign off the budget, or declare war.
:36:38. > :36:42.We won't be able to dissolve parliament if and when it gets
:36:42. > :36:47.reconvened and elected. He's in a tight spot. What are the options
:36:47. > :36:51.for the Muslim Brotherhood, on the brink of power, but not much power?
:36:51. > :36:53.Most people think there is going to be a difficult period of prolonged
:36:53. > :36:58.crisis but effectively of negotiation between the two sides
:36:58. > :37:03.in this. The military, I think, at some level, accept they can't hold
:37:03. > :37:07.all the power. Some suggest, I have heard senior officers suggest, that
:37:07. > :37:11.they want Dr Morsi to take all the responsibility politically for all
:37:11. > :37:15.the bad things that will happen in Egypt politically over the next
:37:15. > :37:18.year, particularly on the economic front. The Brotherhood is calling
:37:18. > :37:21.for more mass protests tomorrow, Friday, of course, they are calling
:37:21. > :37:24.for a huge protest, they are talking about occupying Tahrir
:37:24. > :37:30.Square continuously now. Until their grievances are met,
:37:30. > :37:34.parliament is reinstated, and the country is put back on a proper
:37:34. > :37:39.constitutional basis. Let's speak now to two distinguished Egyptian
:37:40. > :37:46.writers, one among the crowds in Tahrir Square, and Tariq Ramadan,
:37:46. > :37:50.author of the Arab Awakening, her grandfather was one of the founders
:37:50. > :37:55.of the Muslim brother Hoo. How worried are you about your country?
:37:55. > :38:05.I'm very worried at the moment, but I'm worried in the short-term. I
:38:05. > :38:05.
:38:05. > :38:09.think in the long-term, there is no rolling back what has happened.
:38:09. > :38:13.People went out because the country was on the knees and not run in the
:38:13. > :38:21.interests of the people. People had enough, they demanded a decent life,
:38:21. > :38:25.freedom and human rights. They are not going to go back on these
:38:25. > :38:32.demands. And the people, can they live with either person as
:38:32. > :38:36.President? No. In what way? General Shafiq is a return to the old
:38:37. > :38:43.regime. General Shafiq presents the old regime coming back,
:38:43. > :38:48.consolidated with the military. Resuming power. The Muslim
:38:48. > :38:52.Brotherhood are not what the revolution was about, they are not
:38:52. > :38:56.what the revolution really wanted. They are not why you took to the
:38:56. > :39:00.streets? No, but they are still a strand within the revolution, and
:39:00. > :39:05.they are still demanding change. How concerned are you that actually
:39:05. > :39:09.what we are seeing is this very slow, effectively, a mill tro coup,
:39:09. > :39:14.it is the military coming back into power one way or another? I think
:39:14. > :39:17.this is the case. It is not something we can only see now when
:39:17. > :39:20.I was writing the book, I straight away said behind the scenes it is
:39:20. > :39:24.not as simple as that. The military and from within we have tendencies
:39:24. > :39:28.within the mill tree, struggling and some were supporting --
:39:28. > :39:31.military, struggling and some were supporting Mubarak and some were
:39:31. > :39:35.against. This is the taking over from behind the scenes. I never
:39:35. > :39:45.used the concept of revolution, and there was not talking about the
:39:45. > :39:48.
:39:48. > :39:53.Arab Spring, in the region we have something which is a chess game.
:39:53. > :39:55.The only revolution we have in the Arab world is intellectual, we can
:39:55. > :39:58.make it without violent demonstration, we can act against
:39:58. > :40:02.the Government. Now what is happening with the institution is
:40:02. > :40:05.to get someone in power who will have power without authority. It
:40:05. > :40:10.could be Morsi or Shafiq, for the time being, what they are telling
:40:10. > :40:13.us and they said this two days ago, is in the coming we are going to
:40:14. > :40:16.get a President for six months and then we will start again the whole
:40:16. > :40:20.process. What does it mean, it means nothing is changing. One
:40:20. > :40:25.thing I want to say, is that there are internal struggles, we also
:40:25. > :40:29.have to look at the region and see who is also supporting what is
:40:29. > :40:32.happening, because I don't think that we get it right if we think
:40:32. > :40:34.that the transparency and the democratic process is supported,
:40:34. > :40:39.for example, by the American administration today. I don't think
:40:39. > :40:42.so. There is a question of outsiders, but you seem to be
:40:43. > :40:46.fundamentally optimistic, given the fact that as we said earlier, there
:40:46. > :40:50.is no Government, no parliament, no constitution, it is not clear who
:40:50. > :40:56.is in charge? I think that what's happening is that the military are
:40:56. > :41:01.really actually trying to tighten their grip. It almost for them
:41:01. > :41:04.doesn't matter which candidate gets the presidency. What they are doing
:41:04. > :41:07.is they are threatening the committee that is set up to write
:41:07. > :41:10.the constitution, and they are talking about disbanding it and
:41:10. > :41:15.creating their own committee, that will write the constitution that
:41:15. > :41:21.they want. They have got a law in place that allows them to arrest
:41:21. > :41:25.people, to detain civilians off the street, they have now written in
:41:25. > :41:30.immunity for the military if they do that. I think that these are the
:41:30. > :41:34.things, the underpinnings of the power that they are now trying to
:41:34. > :41:40.establish on the streets, whichever candidate comes in. Are you
:41:40. > :41:44.surprised how calm low, sor far, most Egyptians have take -- calmly,
:41:44. > :41:48.so far, most Egyptians have taken this. There is economic problems,
:41:48. > :41:52.as we heard a moment ago. There is some demonstrations, everything
:41:52. > :41:56.seems to be relatively peaceful? Yes, I think why we don't have the
:41:56. > :41:59.result today, I think it is because it is Friday. If, for example, they
:42:00. > :42:05.were to announce that Shafiq is winning, something could happen.
:42:05. > :42:08.And I want, I'm cautiously optimistic, I'm not really
:42:08. > :42:12.optimistic, cautiously optimistic, hoping that what will happen in the
:42:12. > :42:17.near future is the people should not stop demonstrating, but the
:42:18. > :42:21.point is to avoid anything that has to do with violence. It has to be
:42:21. > :42:24.non-violent, resistance process, coming from the people, if we want
:42:24. > :42:27.to keep the spirit. At the end of the day what is happening now, we
:42:27. > :42:31.are too much looking at the political factors and forgetting
:42:31. > :42:34.the economic dimension of the whole process. Egypt is not Tunisia.
:42:34. > :42:39.Egypt is central to anything which is happening in the region. And
:42:39. > :42:45.when we speak about the army, we don't speak only about military
:42:45. > :42:48.force, we speak about economic power in the region. I think ...It
:42:48. > :42:54.Is plugged into that? Exactly we need the people and the Egyptians,
:42:54. > :42:58.it is good, what we have seen over the last weeks is people now
:42:58. > :43:01.committing to resist, but at the same time understanding they should
:43:01. > :43:05.eschew violence. But the army can push the people to go towards
:43:05. > :43:09.violence because it can help them. Exactly I think really when you say
:43:09. > :43:14.that the country is surprisingly calm, I hope it remains calm to an
:43:14. > :43:21.extent. My sense, our sense, is very much that people are being
:43:21. > :43:25.prodded towards violence wrecks get a lot of news about arms caches
:43:25. > :43:29.being found everywhere, the rumour mill is being used to scare and
:43:29. > :43:35.panic people. The army has played this devisive role for a long time
:43:35. > :43:41.In the past hour the credit ratings agency, Moody's, has downgraded its
:43:41. > :43:46.assessment of 15 of the world banks, including Barclays, HSBC and RBS.
:43:47. > :43:53.What have they been saying? Economics' journalists have had to
:43:53. > :44:01.sit through half an hour of alphabet spaghetti. The big banks
:44:01. > :44:07.are the big French banks and Canadian banks and our's. Bark
:44:07. > :44:09.close down two notches, HSBC down one, and RBS down one. What does it
:44:09. > :44:13.mean? The reason they are downgrading is the general
:44:13. > :44:20.situation in capital markets is getting more risky, they have to
:44:20. > :44:28.judge which banks are affected. The way to judge is it HSBC, a big
:44:28. > :44:32.global bank, and very rebust in this situation. RBS only held up in
:44:32. > :44:36.this situation because the Government implicitlys it. Barclays
:44:36. > :44:40.a bigger hit, exposed to the capital markets and a volatile
:44:40. > :44:44.situation. Not earning enough from other things. What we know today is
:44:44. > :44:49.that, it doesn't affect Joe Public on the high street, meetly. When we
:44:49. > :44:51.wake up tomorrow and look at what the markets are doing and how the
:44:52. > :44:56.eurozone is reacting, what difference will that make?
:44:56. > :45:02.general thing happening in the world is the general drift away
:45:02. > :45:06.from banks and Governments having triple-A ratings. There was one day
:45:06. > :45:12.where everybody had it, and it was suicidal if you lost it, now
:45:12. > :45:16.everyone is losing it. The banks were told they need 63 billion
:45:17. > :45:19.extra Uri rows to survive, we expect that pa -- euros to survive.
:45:19. > :45:23.As Governments move to support banks throughout the world, what
:45:23. > :45:27.markets think of them is less important what credit ratings
:45:27. > :45:37.agency think of them is usually one step behind markets. More on this
:45:37. > :45:54.
:45:54. > :46:01.That's all tonight, I'm back with more tomorrow. We wanted to leave
:46:01. > :46:06.you with the Venezuelan conductor who led the Simon Bolivar orchestra
:46:06. > :46:08.in a housing estate in sterling tonight, as part of celebrations
:46:08. > :46:18.connected to the Olympics. Good night.
:46:18. > :46:18.
:46:18. > :46:59.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 41 seconds
:46:59. > :47:04.More downpours to come over the next 24 hours. Especially wet
:47:04. > :47:07.tonight across eastern Scotland, the rain slowly easing here, a
:47:07. > :47:11.gusty night across southern parts of England, blustery throughout the
:47:11. > :47:14.day on Friday. It stays very, very wet across North West England, here
:47:14. > :47:18.the Met Office have an amber warning in force. Downpours
:47:18. > :47:22.continuing through much of the day. A real risk of flooding here.
:47:22. > :47:25.Further south it looks brighter, there will be sunny spells, but a
:47:25. > :47:29.few showers. Those showers zipping through quickly on a strong wind.
:47:29. > :47:33.That wind means even if you get some sunshine t will not feel
:47:33. > :47:36.particularly warm. Dryer spells across south wells, but in North
:47:37. > :47:40.Wales again, persistent, at times heavy rain, for Northern Ireland
:47:40. > :47:44.and south-west Scotland, it looks very wet and that rain could build
:47:44. > :47:48.up through the day and maybe cause problems. For eastern Scotland it
:47:48. > :47:51.is very wet tonight. It will turn a bit dryer here during the course of
:47:51. > :47:55.Friday afternoon. There is more rain to come, particularly over
:47:55. > :47:57.northern Britain on Saturday. Cloudy with outbreaks of rain
:47:57. > :48:01.across northern England, Scotland and Northern Ireland. The winds not
:48:01. > :48:05.as strong on Saturday, but they will still be a feature, perhaps a
:48:05. > :48:12.little bit dryer again across the south, and maybe even seeing a few