:00:13. > :00:18.We've been droning on about the euro crisis for weeks now. The
:00:18. > :00:21.underlying assumption is that it is someone else's problem and we are
:00:21. > :00:26.well out of it. But the attempts to find a solution raise questions
:00:26. > :00:31.which affect us all. Should we be in or out? More involved or less?
:00:31. > :00:37.We have a studio audience here. It is nearly 40 years since this
:00:37. > :00:43.country decide it had could no longer remain a sceppered isle. We
:00:43. > :00:47.joined a common market and now find ourselves part of a European Union.
:00:47. > :00:52.If the eurozone needs a form of political union to save the kurn
:00:52. > :00:57.tri, what will the politicians tell them? What does it say about us as
:00:57. > :01:07.a nation. Are we depifrn or just deluded. We will try and get to the
:01:07. > :01:08.
:01:08. > :01:12.Cyprus became the fifth eurozone state to stick its hand out and ask
:01:12. > :01:16.for financial help today. How lucky Britain is to have decide today
:01:16. > :01:21.stay out of the single currency you may say. Yet the British position
:01:21. > :01:24.is we want the euro to survive, jobs and prosperity here depend on
:01:24. > :01:29.T for that to happen it is increasingly recognised that there
:01:29. > :01:33.will have to be greater central control of taxes and spending and
:01:33. > :01:37.that looks to demand greater central political union from which
:01:38. > :01:41.of course we should be excluded. Our relationship with Europe is a
:01:41. > :01:46.huge issue on which the political class of this country seems adrift
:01:46. > :01:55.from the people. In a minute Paddy Ashdown, Peter Hain, David Davies
:01:56. > :01:59.and Nigel Farage, but first David Grossman.
:01:59. > :02:05.Things are changing so fast in Europe right now that even by the
:02:05. > :02:09.time these passengers arrive in Brussels or Paris, there's no great
:02:09. > :02:13.certainty what sort of continent will await them. There's so many
:02:13. > :02:17.different possible scenarios, will the euro still exist at all as a
:02:17. > :02:22.currency? The wonders of foreign travel and
:02:22. > :02:27.the invention of things like the Eurostar mean we have never been
:02:27. > :02:31.better connected to the whole of the European mainland. At the same
:02:31. > :02:35.time though, the complications going on in the eurozone mean we
:02:35. > :02:39.have never been more politically detached from the whole European
:02:39. > :02:45.project. The question is where is that project heading next and does
:02:45. > :02:49.Britain want to be on board. In a perverse way I think it is a
:02:49. > :02:53.great opportunity for Britain to actually look at our relationship
:02:53. > :02:56.with Europe. We have been part of an institution which is incredibly
:02:56. > :03:00.bureaucratic. It's made it difficult for us to be flexible and
:03:00. > :03:06.to have the ability to do the things which our economy needs.
:03:06. > :03:09.Pickly -- particularly in the economic crisis. We need to be
:03:09. > :03:18.focusing on deregulating our economy. That is difficult when
:03:18. > :03:22.Europe is moving in the opposite direction. Of course it would be
:03:22. > :03:28.great to have all of the benefits of EU membership without having to
:03:28. > :03:32.stump up for any of the cost. But say observers of matters EU, why
:03:32. > :03:37.would our partners allow us on the train unless we are prepared to pay
:03:37. > :03:41.for a ticket. Britain has always wanted the same thing, we want a
:03:41. > :03:46.loose free trade arrangement. We don't like the high costs of red
:03:46. > :03:49.tape. We don't like sending huge amounts of money to French farmers.
:03:50. > :03:55.We have always wanted the same things. The problem is, that is not
:03:55. > :03:58.how it works. Europe is a grand bargain. You get the free trade
:03:58. > :04:02.membership of the single market in return for countries that are not
:04:02. > :04:06.keen on free trade like France, getting other things for them too.
:04:06. > :04:09.They want the rules and regulations to guarantee it isn't a race to the
:04:09. > :04:13.bottom on standards. Last year David Cameron suggested that
:04:13. > :04:17.Britain could use the eurozone crisis to force Brussels to give us
:04:17. > :04:21.back some sovereignty. Treaty change can only happen if it is
:04:21. > :04:26.agreed by all 27 member states of the European Union and any treaty
:04:26. > :04:31.change, as the last treaty change did, is an opportunity for Britain
:04:31. > :04:35.to vans our ntional interest. strategy wasn't exactly a
:04:35. > :04:40.resounding success when Britain refused to sign the new fiscal
:04:41. > :04:43.compact, the other member states went ahead any way. If you try and
:04:44. > :04:47.seize the opportunity of others misfortune and when the others are
:04:47. > :04:53.trying to redraft the treaties to sort out the eurozone crisis and
:04:54. > :04:57.then we say you can't have your new treaty unless you give us AB and C,
:04:57. > :05:02.opting out of social policy or whatever, that wouldn't go down
:05:02. > :05:08.well. We would have no friends or allies in doing that. People would
:05:08. > :05:12.tell us to go away. Then of course there is the small matter of what
:05:12. > :05:17.sort of Europe the voters want. They seem less and less happy these
:05:17. > :05:22.days to leave the driving to their political masters. We will discuss
:05:22. > :05:25.whether we should have a referendum in a while, but first here with our
:05:25. > :05:29.studio audience are four people with very different visions of our
:05:29. > :05:35.future relationship with Europe. The leader of the UK Independence
:05:35. > :05:39.Party Nigel Farage, David Davies from the Tory Party, and was
:05:39. > :05:43.previously a Minister for Europe. Peter Hain former Labour cabinet
:05:43. > :05:48.minister and Minister for Europe as well. Former leader of the Liberal
:05:48. > :05:52.Democrats lord Paddy Ashdown. David Davies, how important is it
:05:52. > :05:57.that at a time like this we try to redefine our relationship with
:05:57. > :06:02.Europe?. It's It's going to become very important. The only way out of
:06:02. > :06:05.the problem with the eurozone will be more federalism for some of the
:06:05. > :06:10.European Union members, and more centralisation. We won't want that.
:06:10. > :06:14.That will be something we have never sibbed up to -- signed up to
:06:14. > :06:20.and we have to start deciding what we do want. This is a big moment.
:06:20. > :06:28.very big moment. You would share that view I imagine Paddy Ashdown?
:06:28. > :06:33.Absolutely. Welcome to the question of referendum shortly. You also
:06:33. > :06:39.believe, therefore, that this country has to decide whether it is
:06:39. > :06:46.in or out long-term? Not now. No. I think the deal that's there on the
:06:46. > :06:51.table - by the way I was the first politician to say 15 years ago if
:06:51. > :06:55.there was to be a substantial move of powers to the EU that that ought
:06:55. > :07:03.to be the subject of a referendum. That is right. Let me see if we can
:07:03. > :07:09.identify this. 3.5 million jobs now depend on trade with Europe. Our
:07:09. > :07:17.major partners. Probably reduce the trade annually with a European
:07:17. > :07:20.Union, 40% of our trade, 2% with China, down to family basis. The
:07:21. > :07:24.important thing is that we make sure we do the right thing to
:07:24. > :07:27.ensure the EU survives. I agree with David Davies, that means
:07:27. > :07:31.deepening the institutions of Europe. At this stage, Britain
:07:31. > :07:37.cannot go along with that process. How we say we want to stand aside
:07:37. > :07:42.from the process at the moment is absolute lie crucial. We will
:07:42. > :07:46.explore that in a moment. Peter Hain, if Paddy Ashdown is right and
:07:46. > :07:53.there may be a mechanism for saving the euro, it is something that we
:07:53. > :07:57.want to see succeed isn't it? want to see the euro succeed. 40%
:07:57. > :08:01.of our trade is with the eurozone countries. Over half our trade is
:08:01. > :08:08.with the EU as a whole. We have to remind ourselves while we are in
:08:08. > :08:12.Europe. Why I voted yes in 1975. Because Europe has saved this
:08:12. > :08:18.continent, which we are part of, although an island off it, from war,
:08:18. > :08:25.and conflict of a kind which didn't visit any other part of the world.
:08:25. > :08:32.There would be war in Western Europe without the EU? I am saying
:08:32. > :08:37.it helped cement peace and prosperity after the second Second
:08:37. > :08:42.World War. When Paddy was a special representive in Bosnia or shortly
:08:42. > :08:45.before that, Croatia was at war and now it is actually establishing
:08:45. > :08:50.democratic procedures because of the EU. Let's not forget the big
:08:50. > :08:58.prize and prosperity it's brought to everybody. Having said that, the
:08:58. > :09:03.eurozone... Greece. Spain, it is a disaster zone economically.
:09:03. > :09:08.Uncompetitive with job regulations, environmental standards. Destroying
:09:08. > :09:14.jobs in Britain. If you think the eurozone with total unemployment at
:09:14. > :09:18.23% is a success, I would hate to see what failure is. I am not
:09:18. > :09:22.saying it is a success. I am saying the EU has brought the whole of
:09:22. > :09:29.Europe prosperity. The eurozone was designed on an entirely faulty
:09:29. > :09:35.basis. From the beginning. I voted against the ma trict treaty. --
:09:35. > :09:41.Maastricht Treaty. The idea that we would get out of Europe and not any
:09:41. > :09:47.more have access to emergency health care. This is silly. These
:09:47. > :09:50.arguments we are hearing tonight are 40 years out of date. The idea
:09:50. > :09:54.that we have to be part of a political union in order to buy and
:09:54. > :09:59.sell goods with French and German and Italian companies is an idea
:09:59. > :10:02.that belongs back in the '60s. We have been through global trade
:10:02. > :10:06.liberalisation through the World Trade Organisation and you should
:10:06. > :10:10.remember Paddy that we are the biggest export market for the EU in
:10:10. > :10:14.the world. They sell us far more than we sell them. If you think 3.5
:10:14. > :10:20.million jobs are dependent on our trade with Europe, there are 6
:10:20. > :10:25.million jobs in Europe dependent on their trade with us. Just to bring
:10:25. > :10:32.in the audience. I do wish the politicians read their history
:10:32. > :10:36.books. Prior to 1914, 40% of the English trade was done with Germany.
:10:36. > :10:41.It didn't stop at war. The idea that you can, that will not going
:10:41. > :10:46.to war with people you do trade with is ridiculous. No-one is
:10:46. > :10:54.suggesting that. Who feels them self to be a
:10:54. > :10:59.European? Puts your hands up. Why haven't you put your hand up?
:10:59. > :11:04.don't feel. I feel I am an Englishman and then a Briton second.
:11:04. > :11:08.European third perhaps? Possibly but very vaguely. The issue for me
:11:08. > :11:12.is I don't see why we can't trade with these countries, why we have
:11:12. > :11:19.to take part and be part of a growing federal super state, it's
:11:19. > :11:23.beyond me. I agree. I believe political and
:11:23. > :11:27.economyically we will always be tied to other countries but I feel
:11:27. > :11:30.the relationship of the ear ozone is too close. Let's have someone
:11:30. > :11:35.from here. Who feels it is a key moment in our relationship with
:11:35. > :11:40.Europe, because something is going on in Europe at the end, if it
:11:40. > :11:45.doesn't go away we are going to be in a dit of difficulty. It is a key
:11:45. > :11:49.moment for us at the moment. If we go towards more central powers and
:11:49. > :11:54.financial services go into Europe, we are in a horrible situation. If
:11:54. > :12:00.we leave and rely on our World Trade Organisation, we could be hit
:12:00. > :12:04.with trade tariffs. We are in a key position now to negotiate. Leaving
:12:04. > :12:10.wouldn't settle anything would it? If we leave, trade organisation
:12:10. > :12:14.would be our only sort of meshing nism to trade. The European Union
:12:14. > :12:19.has 63 trade deals, Mexico has a free trade deal with the EU. Are
:12:19. > :12:27.you telling me their biggest export market wouldn't have that deal.
:12:27. > :12:36.you are going to consign us to the position of Norway, outside or
:12:36. > :12:41.Switzerland... Make our own trade deals... Norway has had to enact
:12:41. > :12:50.75% of European legislation to remain a trader in the single
:12:50. > :12:55.market. Completely wrong. Out of Europe but run by Europe, that is
:12:55. > :13:05.what you are proposing. Let me give you an argument for the future. I
:13:05. > :13:05.
:13:05. > :13:14.dare say it isn't popular but it is true. The position of Europe has
:13:14. > :13:18.now now funed amountally changed. - - Fundamentally changed. We have a
:13:18. > :13:22.Russian President, prepared to use tanks, you have a rising China and
:13:22. > :13:26.rising India. If Europe doesn't realise the right reaction for the
:13:26. > :13:33.new circumstances is to deepen the institution of our defence, foreign
:13:33. > :13:37.affairs and economy, we are bloody fools. Get rid of our democracy!
:13:37. > :13:42.Let me say this to you. If you do not realise, if you really want to
:13:42. > :13:46.consign all the countries of Europe to the perfect sovereignty of corks
:13:46. > :13:50.floating around other people's ocean liners help yourself but in
:13:50. > :13:53.the world you are about to come into, getting together with our
:13:53. > :13:57.European partners, and pooling our sofr at this is the way we give
:13:57. > :14:06.ourselves a powerful voice in a world that is going to be more
:14:06. > :14:10.turbulent. Why shouldn't we leave? We should renegotiate our position.
:14:10. > :14:14.Let me take one point. Paddy has a point that we want to maintain a
:14:15. > :14:22.trading relationship with Europe. I don't accept the price is the one
:14:22. > :14:32.he puts up. We should have a relationship which allows us to
:14:32. > :14:34.
:14:34. > :14:38.trade with them, which has co- operation agreements but not
:14:38. > :14:42.subordination. They should be co- operation arrangements. What should
:14:42. > :14:50.we renegotiate with Europe? It is the whole package. The whole thing?
:14:50. > :14:54.The whole package. In a In effect, Merkel has told us something
:14:54. > :14:58.already. They see they are going down a route that does not suit us.
:14:58. > :15:02.They know that and they are going to have to come to a new
:15:02. > :15:06.relationship. What it will be is a very difficult guess. If they don't
:15:06. > :15:12.should we leave? There's no reason why all the other countries are
:15:12. > :15:15.going to say we will give you what you want and you can have exactly
:15:15. > :15:21.the free trade arrangements you want but you don't have to make any
:15:22. > :15:27.of the rules or be part of all of that. It doesn't seem to me to be
:15:27. > :15:33.practical common sense. Are you in favour of renegotiating our our
:15:33. > :15:37.arrangement with Europe? It is important we learn from Greece, and
:15:37. > :15:42.everyone is properly in the EU or out of it. When one member state,
:15:42. > :15:46.when its financials or goes bankrupt, there are serious
:15:46. > :15:51.ramifications for the other members so we are either all in together or
:15:51. > :15:58.half out. There is a halfway house and we are in it, we are not in the
:15:58. > :16:05.euro but in the European Union. Your point is? There is no halfway
:16:05. > :16:10.house. There are 60 halfway houses. 60 trade deals. If we separate
:16:10. > :16:20.trade and politician, we can have a trade relationship without being
:16:20. > :16:25.members of the political union. are the people pretty much in a
:16:26. > :16:31.sticky dilemma, the main threat to our sofr at this is hardly other
:16:31. > :16:33.nations, it is large multi- nationals who can dictate to us our
:16:33. > :16:39.fiscal policies otherwise they will go somewhere else. The alternative
:16:39. > :16:44.to that is ganging up with the EU and wider and that we know is
:16:44. > :16:49.fairly undemocratic. That we know is very much captured by the same
:16:49. > :16:55.sector. But some kind of change is our only hope against something
:16:55. > :16:58.like debt servitude. I was going to say that all the
:16:58. > :17:04.conversations so far has been control, about trade, but you asked
:17:04. > :17:11.the question earlier who feels like a European. To me the EU project is
:17:11. > :17:16.more about binding, breaking down barriers, taking away traditional
:17:16. > :17:22.hostilities, to me a large reason to be part of it and to remain part
:17:22. > :17:26.of it and to strengthen and deepen the relationship is things like the
:17:26. > :17:31.experience of my son, who has graduated from the University of
:17:31. > :17:37.Geneva. That wouldn't have been possible for me at my time when I
:17:37. > :17:42.was at university. I am talking about a situation in which across
:17:42. > :17:46.Europe, including some countries not in the EU, we have seen a
:17:46. > :17:49.tendency for countries to come together and break down barriers.
:17:49. > :17:54.Actually the north and south are breaking away and being very rude
:17:54. > :18:03.about each other. Do you feel this is a democratic institution? Do you
:18:03. > :18:07.feel you have a say over how it behaves? No. Does anybody?
:18:07. > :18:12.Absolutely not? This is a specifically selected audience to
:18:12. > :18:17.represent public opinion. Does anyone feel they have control of
:18:17. > :18:27.the EU or their views are represented? It is a false die cot
:18:27. > :18:28.
:18:28. > :18:33.We elect politicians to represent us and we have politicians in
:18:33. > :18:43.Britain and politicians in Europe who do that. Were I to show you a
:18:43. > :18:43.
:18:43. > :18:53.picture of a European politician or Mr Barrossi, would you know him, du
:18:53. > :18:53.
:18:54. > :19:02.know him? Not at all. One or two people do know him. You can't
:19:02. > :19:08.remove them. I wonder if you put every member of the cabinet up
:19:08. > :19:12.there would people know. He hasn't been voted for and we can't remove
:19:12. > :19:15.him. This is a debate, not a shouting match. It is accepted that
:19:15. > :19:18.the democratic democratic institutions of Europe need
:19:18. > :19:22.reforming, so do they at Westminster. The fact that the
:19:22. > :19:27.democracies in these institutions is not up to the standards we would
:19:27. > :19:32.wish to see is not a reason for abandoning them. The American state,
:19:32. > :19:37.United States has now agreed to begin trade negotiations with the
:19:38. > :19:46.EU. Our two primary trading partners. Nigel wants us not to be
:19:46. > :19:53.at the table at all. A third of the population of the globe who offered
:19:53. > :19:58.us seven years ago a free trade deal... Be serious Nigel.
:19:58. > :20:03.European Union is on our doorstep. You have never worked in the real
:20:03. > :20:08.world but most of our business is done on telephones.
:20:08. > :20:11.I am with Lord Ashdown about the earlier arguments about the peace,
:20:11. > :20:17.prosperity and stability that Europe has brought. Certainly the
:20:17. > :20:24.recent history of Europe in terms of Yugoslavia, the fragmentation,
:20:24. > :20:29.the nationalisms and hatred, that was indicative of what happens when
:20:29. > :20:37.nations... Are forced together against their will... The point is
:20:37. > :20:43.the issue about integration surely is is about stability, acceptance
:20:43. > :20:51.of respect for human rights and Rule of Law and the Copenhagen cry
:20:51. > :20:54.tear ya. The countries that came from the former Eastern bloc to
:20:54. > :20:59.escape Soviet totalitarianism, which has been corrupted by the way
:20:59. > :21:03.the political class has characterised it... Suppose the
:21:04. > :21:07.members of the eurozone do manage to save their currency by going to
:21:07. > :21:11.a fiscal union, taxing union and political decision-making union,
:21:11. > :21:21.would it it still be an organisation worth belonging to?
:21:21. > :21:22.
:21:22. > :21:27.think it would be. I think it is important at the centre. What seems
:21:27. > :21:32.likely is we are seen as a serious power in Europe, when we negotiate
:21:32. > :21:34.with the eurozone we get the best deal for Britain, instead of
:21:34. > :21:40.exercising vetoes which the Prime Minister did.
:21:40. > :21:48.We would have no say in that central core. We could have
:21:48. > :21:53.influence in it. I don't any anybody in Britain wants to join
:21:53. > :21:59.the eurozone. I think some people do. Tony Blair seemed to be saying
:21:59. > :22:02.we should think about it. What I think I do say and what separates
:22:02. > :22:09.me from Nigel and David is this: if it becomes in Britain's interests
:22:09. > :22:16.to join the euro in the future, I think we should do so. They think
:22:16. > :22:23.they wouldn't want to. They are not going to want to join the euro if
:22:23. > :22:29.it is not in our interests. If it was in Britain's to join the euro,
:22:29. > :22:39.would you join it. The euro is headed for a disaster. We should
:22:39. > :22:45.never give up control of our own economy. It's becoming increasingly
:22:45. > :22:52.widely accepted in euroland that for the currency to work there will
:22:52. > :22:57.have to be an integration of taxes. That implies an integration of
:22:57. > :23:04.politics and political institutions. The government has promised a frism
:23:04. > :23:14.if there is any significant transfer of power to Europe. It is
:23:14. > :23:15.
:23:15. > :23:20.time to hear again from David If you are a British voter under 55,
:23:20. > :23:24.you may have noticed you have never been given a direct say in our
:23:24. > :23:28.membership of the EU. You can judge how far attitudes have shifted
:23:28. > :23:34.since 1975 by looking at how newspapers that are now hostile to
:23:34. > :23:41.the EU then welcomed the yes vote. The yes vote that even Margaret
:23:41. > :23:47.Thatcher campaigned for. Unlike some countries who see the EU is
:23:47. > :23:51.bringing about a new age of freedom and democracy, Britain has has
:23:51. > :23:55.always been more hot head headed. We were going to make a better
:23:55. > :23:59.living for ourselves S now that living has been thrown into doubt
:23:59. > :24:04.by the eurozone crisis, well, many in Britain believe that British
:24:04. > :24:10.voters should be given a say on what sort of future Europe has.
:24:10. > :24:15.I speak as someone who will make a business defence of the single
:24:15. > :24:20.market and EU membership. I used to work in Brussels for five years and
:24:20. > :24:26.I watched them lose the referendums on the institution and then turn it
:24:26. > :24:30.into a new treaty to avoid further referendums, and that was an anti-
:24:30. > :24:33.democratic act. If someone says to me Europe basically isn't a very
:24:33. > :24:38.democratic project, I am afraid I have to agree with you. I
:24:38. > :24:44.completely understand why there is a real desire to let the people in
:24:44. > :24:48.on this process, because it is felt like a conspiracy of the elite and
:24:49. > :24:52.that at the moment is in desperate shape. I completely understand that.
:24:52. > :24:57.I have my own moment to think we should do this and have a
:24:57. > :25:01.referendum. The big question with a referendum is what would the big
:25:01. > :25:06.referendum question be, what would the public be asked. There are no
:25:06. > :25:09.specific specific treaty changes under discussion now. This is the
:25:09. > :25:13.political difficulty which David Cameron is facing at the moment,
:25:13. > :25:17.deciding what that question might be. The public are fretty clear
:25:17. > :25:21.they do -- pretty clear they do want a referendum, whether you
:25:21. > :25:27.frame it in terms of in or out is the question.
:25:27. > :25:30.In an ideal world, the simplest way of doing it would be a radical
:25:30. > :25:33.renegotiation which takes us back to something which is more akin to
:25:33. > :25:37.simply a free trade relationship. The difficulty you have there is
:25:37. > :25:41.getting the rest of Europe to agree to that. I think at the moment it
:25:41. > :25:45.is looking increasingly unlikely that we would get what we want in
:25:45. > :25:50.that renegotiation. What terrifies the politicians is
:25:50. > :25:58.however they try to contain anti-EU sentiment, and channel it into a
:25:58. > :26:02.safe sort of referendum, it will end up as a de facto in out
:26:02. > :26:07.referendum. And Britain could end up out of the EU and none of the
:26:07. > :26:14.main party leaders right now wants to risk that. Let's be clear, there
:26:14. > :26:20.aren't safer options. Almost any referendum you do offer, will be an
:26:20. > :26:23.in or out referendum. Despite many uncertainties over the form the
:26:23. > :26:29.referendum will take, what the negotiated terms will amount to,
:26:29. > :26:32.the campaign has already started. That is just as true today. The
:26:32. > :26:36.background campaigning on the referendum we may or may not get is
:26:36. > :26:40.already going on. The The politics is moving in one direction only.
:26:40. > :26:44.All the parties under increasing pressure to commit to that
:26:44. > :26:50.referendum in their next manifestoes. None wants to be the
:26:50. > :26:54.last to agree. Our panel and audience are still
:26:54. > :26:58.here. Just as a matter of interest among the audience here, how many
:26:58. > :27:03.people would like to see a referendum sometime when we can
:27:04. > :27:08.frame the question in the next few weeks or months? You in the green
:27:08. > :27:15.shirt, have you nothing interesting to say on the referendum? I have,
:27:15. > :27:25.we already had a referendum, I voted, there was two million for
:27:25. > :27:30.and one million again. There are 32 million of us I didn't vote, I was
:27:30. > :27:35.11. The question was about a common market not a European Union. Which
:27:35. > :27:42.is why mar threat Thatcher made it so large that it wasn't possible to
:27:42. > :27:47.work very efficiently. There is an overwhelming majority who do want
:27:47. > :27:53.some sort of say on the subject. Is that what you are going to say.
:27:53. > :28:00.point I am going to make is the fact that I, too, voted for it, but
:28:00. > :28:04.I voted purely and simply for trade. I didn't vote for a political union,
:28:04. > :28:08.I didn't vote for this country to lose its sovereignty. I didn't vote
:28:08. > :28:16.for the amount of money which the EU is costing us and quite clearly
:28:16. > :28:21.I do agree with Nigel Farage's that I have watched on U tube. Thank
:28:21. > :28:26.you! I think if the European project is
:28:26. > :28:32.to succeed, it has to take the people with it. The people in
:28:32. > :28:36.Europe in France and Germany are getting more and more anti-EU
:28:36. > :28:40.projects because it's seen what it is costing them. Furthermore, you
:28:40. > :28:44.cannot just wipe away 1,000 years of history in all these countries.
:28:44. > :28:48.They speak different languages, they have different cultures. It is
:28:48. > :28:53.not a question of trade and human resources and silly rules coming
:28:53. > :28:57.over from Brussels. It is a lot more than that, that involves the
:28:57. > :29:03.entire population. The lady is right. It is a point we didn't
:29:03. > :29:06.cover. You have 27 different views of what you want out of Europe. We
:29:06. > :29:12.talk about democracy when the Greeks came in, it was after the
:29:12. > :29:16.colonels. When the Spanish came in, it was after Franco. We came in
:29:16. > :29:20.with a fully formed democracy. Paddy doesn't like it, but it is a
:29:20. > :29:27.fully formed working democracy. Nothing like the EU. We have
:29:27. > :29:32.something to lose in this, which others perhaps didn't have. So you
:29:32. > :29:37.are in favour of a referendum. Absolutely. In out referendum?
:29:37. > :29:41.have to have the negotiation first and yes when it comes down to it,
:29:41. > :29:46.it probably does have to be an in and out referendum, once people
:29:46. > :29:49.have seen what the New Deal is, but you have to have a new deal first.
:29:49. > :29:55.Before we get to referendums. There are some things we will lose. But
:29:55. > :30:01.there are sings we will gain as well. This is going to be a very,
:30:01. > :30:05.very, very turbulent, bloody decades ahead of it. There is
:30:05. > :30:12.nothing I would like the British people to have that we cannot get
:30:12. > :30:18.better than work being our parters and the mechanism for doing that is
:30:18. > :30:23.the EU and if we abandon that, and commit ourselves to the perfect
:30:23. > :30:26.sovereignty of small small nations drifting around, our capacity to
:30:26. > :30:32.have the voice to be able to deliver the security I want for the
:30:32. > :30:38.British people will be massively diminished. We are living in an age
:30:38. > :30:44.where what needs to be done cannot be done by national governments
:30:44. > :30:48.alone. I agree with the lady here, I think a referendum on Europe is
:30:49. > :30:55.now in or out referendum, is unstoppable. I think secondly,
:30:55. > :30:59.although I shall be... How far off do you think it might be? I think
:30:59. > :31:04.we will have to see the result of these negotiations. Then we have to
:31:04. > :31:08.see whether or not that shifts power to Europe from Britain. If it
:31:08. > :31:12.doesn't we will have to decide whether or not Britain is
:31:12. > :31:19.advantaged for disadvantaged by that. In the end what it comes down
:31:19. > :31:24.to is an in our out referendum. I have to say I think think those who
:31:24. > :31:30.argue the case are going to find it very, very difficult to win a yes
:31:30. > :31:40.vote. Surely the question on the ballot paper should be do you want
:31:40. > :31:44.
:31:44. > :31:50.to be ruled by Berlin. We have to look at the future and
:31:50. > :31:56.Nigel taking over this discussion and changing the rhetoric out there,
:31:56. > :32:03.the British population is being influenced by this minority against
:32:03. > :32:08.Europe. What we are arguing is there is no European demos. Even
:32:08. > :32:15.the introduction tonight said is Britain being silly and deluded.
:32:15. > :32:22.This argument is happening all over Europe. We want a Europe of trade
:32:23. > :32:29.and co-operation, not one that costs us a fortune. Not one whose
:32:30. > :32:32.courts overrule ours. On the referendum specifically, I think a
:32:32. > :32:37.referendum is almost inevitable. If people want a referendum,
:32:37. > :32:41.politicians should not deny them one, but this is going to be a big
:32:41. > :32:50.big decision. It shouldn't be now because Europe is in crisis. If you
:32:50. > :32:57.suddenly put... Don't know what you are voting on now. You could
:32:57. > :33:02.emergency the chaos -- imagine the chaos. We have to see where we get
:33:02. > :33:06.to as a result of this crisis. I am not frightened of a referendum. I
:33:06. > :33:10.don't think the Labour Party should be frightened of one. If people
:33:10. > :33:15.want a referendum, they will get one. We were the party who gave
:33:15. > :33:20.people a vote in 1975, the Tories having taken us in without one. We
:33:20. > :33:25.will give people a vote if that is what they want. When do you suggest
:33:25. > :33:32.this referendum would be run. Lord Ashdown said maybe we have two or
:33:32. > :33:37.three decades of turmoil. No I didn't say that. Are you suggesting
:33:37. > :33:43.that we wait until calm waters and then decide whether we want to be
:33:43. > :33:47.in or out. I agreed with David Davies, when the negotiations are
:33:47. > :33:53.finished, we see what the balance of powers are. If this country is
:33:53. > :33:58.going to be disadvantaged by that, then a referendum... On a point of
:33:58. > :34:02.clarification, is it possible that Britain could be significantly
:34:02. > :34:07.disadvantaged, a shift of power, which was not actually a passing of
:34:07. > :34:12.a power from our parliament to a European institution but was
:34:12. > :34:16.disadvantaged by the existence, creation of some political union
:34:16. > :34:20.that involves the other members of the euro. It is possible. That
:34:20. > :34:24.could trigger a referendum? If this country believes because of the new
:34:24. > :34:26.arrangements for Europe, we believe that there is a danger that will be
:34:26. > :34:36.disadvantaged, that may be the circumstances in which a referendum
:34:36. > :34:38.
:34:38. > :34:45.needs to be. That shouldn't be a ministerial judgment. Who is going
:34:45. > :34:48.to decide, The Sun newspaper? The government is made to decide.
:34:48. > :34:52.should be a referendum either way, whatever the outcome of the
:34:52. > :34:56.negotiation, there should be a referendum, because we are already
:34:56. > :35:00.in a transform circumstance. We are already -- Paddy may not have said
:35:00. > :35:04.it. Do you trust David Cameron and Nick Clegg to make that judgment?
:35:04. > :35:09.Any nition in power is -- politician is power is going to
:35:09. > :35:13.have to make the call in favour of a referendum. Do you trust them to
:35:13. > :35:18.make an adequate call? I think they will.
:35:18. > :35:24.The danger is what we get is not a referendum. The political class
:35:24. > :35:28.will play the truck on us -- trick of us, they will say you can have a
:35:28. > :35:36.trade deal with Europe, and they will ask us to vote yes to stay
:35:36. > :35:42.part of a single market. That is my big fear with us. Let's have a
:35:43. > :35:48.proper in, out referendum. I hope the government gets the best deal
:35:48. > :35:52.for Britain. What I fear is we will have a government which turns its
:35:52. > :35:56.back on the negotiations and says we are just walking away. Then they
:35:56. > :35:59.go and do a deal like they are doing on financial transactions tax
:35:59. > :36:03.which may be prejudicial to Britain's interests and in this
:36:03. > :36:06.case our finance. We have to be right at the centre. This is about
:36:06. > :36:15.power and whether Britain is serious about being with our
:36:15. > :36:19.neighbours, against China and India and Russia and negotiating...
:36:19. > :36:23.you renegotiated a good deal would you give us an referendum on the
:36:23. > :36:29.negotiations, that is the key here? I do not think you can dodge the
:36:29. > :36:35.issue of the referendum. Thank you. That simple binary choice in or out
:36:36. > :36:40.is the distilation of 1,000 years of history of wars endured and
:36:40. > :36:44.holidays enjoyed, cultural traditions and eating enthusiasm.
:36:44. > :36:54.All our ideas of whether we want to be part of the European project are
:36:54. > :37:03.
:37:03. > :37:09.based on who we think we are. Here We will fight on the beaches, we
:37:09. > :37:18.will fight on the landing grounds, we will fight in the fields and in
:37:18. > :37:28.the streets, we shall fight in the hills. We shall never surrender.
:37:28. > :37:30.
:37:30. > :37:34.Can you stop talking about the war. You started it! You invaded Poland!
:37:34. > :37:44.He wanted the commission to be the executive and he wanted the Council
:37:44. > :38:07.
:38:07. > :38:11.of Ministers to be the Senate. No. We have let the politicians have
:38:11. > :38:17.their say but Europe isn't just a political issue. Here to discuss
:38:17. > :38:20.the cultural aspects of Britain's relationship with Europe are Tony
:38:20. > :38:26.Parsons and Jeanette Winterson and Annalisa Piras.
:38:26. > :38:31.What is it with the British in Europe do you think Tony? I think
:38:31. > :38:35.it's other people have said tonight, we voted for one thing, as I did,
:38:35. > :38:39.first time I voted in 1975, voted to be part of a trading block,
:38:39. > :38:42.voted to be part of a common market and a lot of people in this country
:38:42. > :38:47.feel as though they have had something else rammed down their
:38:47. > :38:52.throats and they object to that. It's nothing to do with not feeling
:38:52. > :38:59.European. You can feel like a European without wanting to be part
:39:00. > :39:06.of an EU we never voted for. When you look at it from as a foreigner
:39:06. > :39:11.among us, how do you see it? Bemused. I am really, really
:39:11. > :39:17.bemused, by the way you relate to the problem. I have been living in
:39:17. > :39:21.this country for 15 years and I have been constantly puzzled by how
:39:21. > :39:26.a country that is normally so rational and intelligent, when it
:39:26. > :39:30.comes to Europe, it's like if there was a blind spot. All the ational
:39:30. > :39:34.arguments go out the door and you start talking about things that
:39:34. > :39:39.relate very, very little with the real issues that are on the table.
:39:39. > :39:43.How does it seem to you? Everything I heard tonight I found disturbing,
:39:43. > :39:48.because we haven't been talking about people. We talk about
:39:48. > :39:52.policies and politics. But what about people in Europe in Britain.
:39:52. > :39:56.A lot of the things that happened, it seems to me, from our union with
:39:56. > :40:02.Europe, have been very positive, particularly for women. We haven't
:40:02. > :40:07.heard the word woman at all tonight. We have an invited audience here,
:40:07. > :40:10.six women out of 24. We had a bunch of guys lined up here as we always
:40:10. > :40:16.do. We need to talk about what happens to people and to women. It
:40:16. > :40:22.is a useful argument. Maternity leave, childcare rights, that is
:40:22. > :40:27.things that have come out of the European Union. You are not saying
:40:27. > :40:36.these improvements would not have occurred had we not been members of
:40:36. > :40:40.the EU? I am, yes. She's right. What do you make of that argument?
:40:40. > :40:47.What I think different shaits this country from the rest, where we are
:40:47. > :40:51.different our history and our memory. In 75 when we had our
:40:51. > :40:56.referendum when I voted to be part of a trading block, I spent a year
:40:56. > :41:01.travelling and was in Spain of General Franco and in the Greece of
:41:02. > :41:05.the colonels. I travelled across Europe where memories were fresh of
:41:05. > :41:09.Nazi occupation. We haven't had that in this country. We have had a
:41:09. > :41:15.different experience of freedom and democracy and I think that really
:41:15. > :41:25.sticks in the throat of a lot of British people, when things are
:41:25. > :41:26.
:41:26. > :41:36.done, when we can't kick someone like cat like Abu ka taed da out of
:41:36. > :41:37.
:41:37. > :41:41.our country. It's something about being on an island, without having
:41:42. > :41:48.land borders, There is a lot of people in Munich and Athens and a
:41:48. > :41:57.lot of people in Madrid and Milan that feel like we do. It's wrong to
:41:57. > :42:01.paint the British as these xenophobic island race.
:42:01. > :42:08.geography of Britain certainly matters in the attitude towards
:42:08. > :42:14.Europe. This is the island nation. Since when has been Ince lar been a
:42:14. > :42:21.crime? It is not a crime, but affects the way you look at the
:42:21. > :42:30.continent. Do you remember the Ealing comedy
:42:30. > :42:33.passport to Pimlico, where a few British people decide they are in
:42:33. > :42:38.Burgundy and it's great because in the pubs all night and then they
:42:38. > :42:42.are back in Britain and it's raining. There is that mentality
:42:42. > :42:45.here. We always focus on the negative. That is one of the bad
:42:45. > :42:49.things about being British. In all this discussion tonight, I haven't
:42:49. > :42:55.heard what's been good about the EU. I would like to hear a little bit
:42:55. > :43:04.of that because by no means is it all bad. Quick whiz round the
:43:04. > :43:14.audience, who can think of good things about the EU? No capital
:43:14. > :43:18.punishment. Good wine. Better food.
:43:18. > :43:23.Freedom of movement from one country to another. Civil
:43:23. > :43:29.partnerships. Better employment legislation.
:43:30. > :43:35.Creativity. Low cost flights. Now we are
:43:35. > :43:40.talking about people. 15% of young people in Spain have got a job. 50%
:43:40. > :43:48.that haven't got a a job but we don't want to mention them. Let's
:43:48. > :43:53.stick with the positives. Low cost flights is a direct consequence of
:43:53. > :44:00.Europe. Millions of people would not have been able to travel. You
:44:00. > :44:10.have 23 fascist MPs in parliament. It seems to be rational to some
:44:10. > :44:17.people, the distinction between a relatively Middle East elite...
:44:18. > :44:21.EasyJet, Ryanair, that is not for... When the monetary union was first
:44:21. > :44:26.talked about we were given this argument that it would be easier
:44:26. > :44:31.when you went abroad, it is an infant isle argument. The monetary
:44:31. > :44:35.union has been the greatest catastrophe in this continent of
:44:35. > :44:42.our lifetime. That is not true. I have to stop you there, because
:44:42. > :44:45.creating a kurn sigh from nothing and having this kun this currency
:44:45. > :44:49.becoming the second in the world, this is not a disaster. What is
:44:49. > :44:53.happening in this country - you are confusing the crisis of the
:44:53. > :45:03.eurozone which is happening nourks which is a consequence of a credit
:45:03. > :45:06.crunch by started in the United States. That is absolute tripe. The
:45:06. > :45:10.eurozone problem is entirely the consequence of the way it was
:45:11. > :45:20.designed and implemented. There was a flaw in the design of it. Thank
:45:21. > :45:25.
:45:25. > :45:35.you. The euro is not a failure. flaw is in the common market
:45:35. > :45:40.
:45:40. > :45:48.agricultural policy. These have been disasters. You want to vote on
:45:48. > :45:55.a democratic institution. They cannot be got rid of. You can
:45:55. > :46:01.change your MP. It doesn't make a difference. We are in a fantasy of
:46:01. > :46:05.democracy. It would be good for the British people to be involved in
:46:05. > :46:09.something instead of side lined. would be like kicking a dying man
:46:09. > :46:13.in the head, having a referendum at the moment. We have waited 37 years.
:46:13. > :46:18.I am going to stop you there. That is it for now. The English football
:46:18. > :46:21.team collected their bagfuls of retentions from the carousel this
:46:21. > :46:25.afternoon. Their manager making the profound observation that we have