:00:13. > :00:17.Tonight, after almost four years and 19 summits, is this the deal
:00:17. > :00:22.that might just save the euro. The decision for no-strings bail out
:00:22. > :00:25.money for Italy and Spain, represents what some see as a
:00:25. > :00:32.retreat by German Chancellor, Angela Merkel. Even a change in the
:00:32. > :00:36.EU centre of gravity, to the south. Catastrophy averted, markets surge,
:00:36. > :00:40.but how does Europe return to growth? We will explore whether it
:00:40. > :00:45.really is that big a deal, with the boss of a giant investment fund.
:00:45. > :00:50.We also know the public's view of bankers, greed year, corrupt and
:00:50. > :00:54.living the champagne lifestyle, but how do they see themselves and us,
:00:54. > :00:59.their investors. The former rogue trader, Nick Leeson, is here.
:00:59. > :01:09.The woman who prosecuted Norway's mass killer, Anders Breivik, tells
:01:09. > :01:10.
:01:10. > :01:14.us why she shook the hand of the man who murdered 77 Norwegians.
:01:14. > :01:17.Good evening, this could be the European Union's big moment, at
:01:17. > :01:22.last. Angela Merkel appears to have backed down under enormous pressure
:01:22. > :01:26.from Italy, Spain and France, producing a deal that offers euro
:01:26. > :01:30.zone countries in trouble, access to money, but with fewer strings
:01:30. > :01:34.attached. The markets like the deal, but they always do for a while. Can
:01:34. > :01:37.Angela Merkel sell it at home, persuading sceptical German tax-
:01:37. > :01:43.payers, that saving the euro is worth even more of their money. We
:01:43. > :01:48.will begin with our diplomatic editor, Mark Urban, in Brussels.
:01:48. > :01:51.In this diplomatic daps, those who have the money and those -- dance,
:01:52. > :01:55.those who have the money and those who want it have circled one
:01:55. > :01:59.another for months. During the early hours of the morning, the
:01:59. > :02:04.Spanish and the Italians threatened to stop the whole show, if Germany
:02:04. > :02:09.didn't loosen up a bit, and do things it had long said it wouldn't.
:02:09. > :02:12.For months we have seen a chicken and egg argument at these summits.
:02:12. > :02:17.Should Europe's poorer-performing economies receive the bail outs
:02:18. > :02:19.they urgently need, or should the systemic problems be dealt with and
:02:19. > :02:23.tough discipline imposed on those nations.
:02:23. > :02:27.Overnight there has been a very important development, which is
:02:27. > :02:35.that Germany has softened its opposition to using joint European
:02:35. > :02:39.money to help the banks in those countries, and, indeed, those
:02:39. > :02:44.countries' Governments themselves. Has Germany crossed a rub conin
:02:44. > :02:49.terms of using these funds to alleviate the sovereign debt?
:02:49. > :02:53.has made a step. They have not crossed their red line of debt
:02:53. > :03:01.mutualisation, of eurobonds and so on, but they have made the existing
:03:01. > :03:08.instruments more flexible. German Chancellor insisted using EU
:03:08. > :03:12.bail out funds, the EFSF and ESM, to help striken members, didn't
:03:12. > :03:18.involve a change of policy, because it could all be done within
:03:18. > :03:23.existing rules and structures. TRANSLATION: What we have agreed
:03:23. > :03:28.today is that Germany will submit the request under the EFSF, thus
:03:28. > :03:33.that status will be transferred to the ESM. Those who would perhaps
:03:33. > :03:37.now take a decision to assist Spanish banks, will be in a some
:03:37. > :03:43.what preferred position, and others would have felt perhaps worse off.
:03:43. > :03:48.We want -- didn't want to create that kind of disadvantage for them.
:03:48. > :03:53.I exerted pressure and so far we want people to maintain and stick
:03:53. > :03:59.to the procedures agreed. But the questioning German press detected
:03:59. > :04:03.humbug from a Chancellor that has repeatedly tried to avoi giving
:04:03. > :04:08.southern European countries a blank check, but has now underwritten
:04:08. > :04:13.their banking systems, effectively. If you want the euro you have to
:04:13. > :04:17.share a bit. Angela Merkel has no other possibility, she either makes
:04:17. > :04:24.some compromises or says goodbye to the euro, Germany is not in the
:04:24. > :04:29.situation at the moment to say goodbye to the euro. The key
:04:29. > :04:34.ingredients was Spain's banks would get help, recapitalisation from
:04:34. > :04:37.Europe's funds, Ireland could follow too, and the same EU funds
:04:37. > :04:40.could be used to buy Government bonds, for instance in Italy, and
:04:40. > :04:45.other countries to help them deal with their sovereign debt. Exactly
:04:45. > :04:49.how this will be done has not yet been worked out. There will also be
:04:49. > :04:54.increased supervision within eurozone banks, and protection of
:04:54. > :04:58.deposits. But does the strengthening of the
:04:58. > :05:05.eurozone inevitably mean a growing gulf with EU countries outside it.
:05:05. > :05:10.Last year we have seen a lot of discussions on how to secure the
:05:10. > :05:17.need for 27 decision makers, especially to protect the internal
:05:17. > :05:21.market. We have preserved this time that we start with the meeting of
:05:21. > :05:26.the European Council, all 27, but that they sometimes continue as 17.
:05:26. > :05:31.Now this time late in the night. So, yes, there is a discussion, which I
:05:31. > :05:35.think is very important, but as of now I think we can handle it.
:05:35. > :05:40.is your own instinct, will we be back in another urgent discussion
:05:40. > :05:46.in a month or two, or has there been sufficient impetuous given now
:05:46. > :05:51.by this summit, to safeguard those countries? I think actually we have
:05:51. > :05:55.made sufficient decisions that actually are heading in the right
:05:55. > :06:01.direction and that could ease some of the market reactions, but at the
:06:01. > :06:05.end of the day, I'm very sure that the reforms done by the nation
:06:05. > :06:10.states, that will need to follow. This is what we have seen in
:06:10. > :06:16.countries like Sweden and Finland, when we were hit by financial
:06:16. > :06:20.crises in the early 1990s, this has been seen in Latvia and Ireland,
:06:20. > :06:24.and I'm pretty sure it is also true for the most troubled countries out
:06:24. > :06:28.there. Of course David Cameron is watching the moves towards fiscal
:06:28. > :06:36.union with a bady eye, trying to find a -- beady eye, trying to find
:06:36. > :06:44.the balance of staying in a single market with all it involves, with
:06:44. > :06:50.protections that might trigger a referendum. There is an issue with
:06:50. > :06:52.being engaged with being frustrated by the way it works. I'm not only a
:06:52. > :06:56.practical euro-sceptic, I'm an optimist about getting this
:06:56. > :06:59.relationship right. So the performers have left the
:06:59. > :07:04.stage again, with Chancellor Merkel going back to convince her
:07:04. > :07:09.parliament that she's not caved in to southern Europe. As always, the
:07:09. > :07:15.acid test will come in the markets. And that wider economic reality
:07:15. > :07:20.that exists beyond the looking glass of EU summits.
:07:21. > :07:23.Our Economics Editor, Paul Mason, has been gauging the reaction to
:07:23. > :07:27.today's agreements. The markets clearly liked it, but does that
:07:27. > :07:32.mean this is a really decisive moment? The euro sup, the European
:07:32. > :07:36.stock markets rup, the cost of borrowing for Spain and Italy are
:07:36. > :07:39.down a bit. They do like it. It has stopped disaster. If they haven't
:07:39. > :07:43.done what they did last night, all the things listed there, we would
:07:43. > :07:47.have been looking at a banking crisis across Europe, a bond market
:07:47. > :07:51.crisis on top of what is still there, which is a shrinking economy.
:07:51. > :07:57.We would have been looking at capital flight increasing, where as
:07:57. > :08:01.what we are looking at now is it may slow down. It certainly hasn't
:08:01. > :08:05.stablised. I think the crucial thing it sounds technical and geeky,
:08:05. > :08:09.but it is very important, is that the whole issue of seniority has
:08:09. > :08:15.been solved. That is, the Germans and the Finns were saying if we
:08:15. > :08:18.lend you the money, southern Europe, we will allow those loans to become
:08:18. > :08:23.more senior than the private sector loans to your bank, and we will get
:08:23. > :08:27.our money back first. That is what one trader said building a firewall
:08:27. > :08:30.out of Semtex, they have pulled out of it, it is a constant German
:08:30. > :08:34.demand, but they have pulled back from it. Stablisation rather than
:08:34. > :08:38.solution is where we are. Given what you have said, politically
:08:38. > :08:43.what has changed? Merkel did blink, her own newspapers realised it,
:08:43. > :08:49.they called it day of defeat. The Italian newspapers following on
:08:49. > :08:52.from the defeat of the Germans in football the night before, were so
:08:52. > :08:56.scatterlogical in their description of what happened to Mrs Merkel it
:08:56. > :09:01.can't be translated into English on TV. Yes, she was defeated. Above
:09:01. > :09:06.all, because the insistence on austerity, as the precondition for
:09:06. > :09:09.aid, and the existence, the insistence of strategic change, the
:09:09. > :09:12.fiscal union, et cetera, as the precondition, is gone. It is gone
:09:12. > :09:15.out of the German demand. The reason is very simple, Francois
:09:15. > :09:20.Hollande. Where some of those journalists where Mark was, telling
:09:20. > :09:25.me two months ago, when I was there, Merkel will tame Hollande, just
:09:25. > :09:29.wait a month or two instead, Hollande has effectively turned the
:09:29. > :09:33.table on Mrs Merkel and there is a new order in Europe, ending the
:09:33. > :09:36.period, I think, that began when Merkel and Sarkozy decided to use
:09:36. > :09:42.the crisis to do something bigger stragically with Europe, it is too
:09:42. > :09:48.fragile to do that with. They are in crisis management mode, and they
:09:48. > :09:53.have managed it for now. A few minutes ago I spoke to Mohamed El
:09:53. > :09:57.Erian, the world's largest bond investor, with �2 trillion of funds
:09:57. > :10:00.under his direction. Do you have any more confidence that the
:10:00. > :10:07.eurozone is a good place for you to invest some of the billions that
:10:07. > :10:11.you look after? It is getting better, but it is not yet as a
:10:11. > :10:14.stage where we would invest in the peripheral economies. Let me
:10:14. > :10:18.explain why. There is no doubt that the European leaders are taking
:10:18. > :10:22.more substantive steps. They have got the sequencing right, they seem
:10:22. > :10:27.to understand the enormity of the problem. That is all encouraging,
:10:27. > :10:31.however, they still haven't gotten to what we Saul the Sputnik moment,
:10:31. > :10:33.recognising that you -- we call the Sputnik moment, recognising you
:10:33. > :10:38.need a breakthrough, recognising you need to catch up with the
:10:38. > :10:41.crisis and get ahead of it. Until that happens, I'm afraid we will
:10:41. > :10:46.have yet another crisis management summit a few weeks down the road,
:10:46. > :10:52.it is not yet safe to invest in the peripheral economies. But, in terms
:10:52. > :10:56.of the core of this, which is Germany and Angela Merkel, she's
:10:56. > :10:59.obviously got political problems and presumably, that's the
:10:59. > :11:03.difficulty in getting to the Sputnik moment, can she persuade
:11:03. > :11:08.her people to put their hands in their pockets? National democracies
:11:08. > :11:13.are not mapping well to the regional requirements. You see this
:11:13. > :11:18.in Germany, you also see it in Greece, you see it in Spain. The
:11:18. > :11:21.second issue, is a lack of self- assurance, mutual assurances,
:11:21. > :11:24.people don't trust that the other side will do the right thing, and
:11:24. > :11:27.therefore, they are playing the game of chicken, rather than
:11:27. > :11:32.collaborating. But if the track is broadly right,
:11:32. > :11:37.as you accept, and they are talking about banking union, fiscal union,
:11:37. > :11:41.and more supervision, I wonder where you think that leaves Britain
:11:41. > :11:45.in and the City of London, as attractive to investors as before?
:11:45. > :11:51.It will for a while. I don't think Europe, the eurozone can get to
:11:51. > :11:57.fiscal union, banking union, political integration quickly. This
:11:57. > :12:00.is not a problem that will be solved. Secondly, the natural
:12:00. > :12:04.forces complicate things. Capital is leaving the periphery, capital
:12:04. > :12:09.is leaving Europe as a whole. So Britain is going to look good for a
:12:09. > :12:12.while, relative to its European counterparts. The big question is
:12:12. > :12:19.down the road, Gavin, if the Europeans get their act together,
:12:19. > :12:22.and if they can truly produce a stronger eurozone, then the
:12:22. > :12:25.implications for Britain will flip immediately. Just a final thought
:12:25. > :12:29.if I can ask you briefly, do you think the worst may be over, the
:12:29. > :12:33.track is right, there is more political will than when we last
:12:33. > :12:39.had a conversation a month or so ago? I hope so, but I don't think
:12:39. > :12:43.so. I don't think so, first because there is still some difficult steps
:12:43. > :12:48.to take. Second, the neighbourhood for Europe is getting worse, the US
:12:48. > :12:52.is slowing down, China is slowing down, Brazil is slowing down. And
:12:52. > :12:57.finally, what you said earlier, leaders have not as yet sold these
:12:57. > :13:00.solutions to their people. So, I hope it's better, but I would not
:13:00. > :13:06.plan on T Thank you very much for talking to
:13:06. > :13:13.Chancellor Merkel has a big sales job to do at home, Marcus
:13:13. > :13:17.Brigstocke is a German MP in the same party -- Ralph Brinkhaus is a
:13:17. > :13:23.German MP in the same party as Angela Merkel. The papers call this
:13:23. > :13:26.a painful defeat for Merkel, it was, wasn't it? I do not like the
:13:26. > :13:30.expression "defeat", we had a defeat yesterday in Poland on the
:13:31. > :13:33.football filed, but not in Brussels. I guess it -- field, but not in
:13:33. > :13:37.Brussels. It was the result of negotiations and in very hard
:13:37. > :13:42.circumstances. I guess we had a good outcome of the negotiations,
:13:42. > :13:47.but we almost have to keep in find...I'm Sorry to interrupt, good
:13:47. > :13:50.outcome, you didn't get what you wanted, and Francois Hollande seems
:13:50. > :13:53.to have changed the entire game in Europe, because you were obviously
:13:53. > :13:59.so determined to be very close to France and you have done what the
:13:59. > :14:05.French, Italians and Spanish wanted? We do not see a game which
:14:05. > :14:13.has changed totally, we have put more flexibility into some tools,
:14:13. > :14:16.and we have put away some mistakes of the old system, and that's all.
:14:16. > :14:20.To come back to the previous remarks, it is very stupid to call
:14:20. > :14:24.it a defeat, we almost have to keep in mind that we have to convince
:14:24. > :14:28.the people on the streets in Germany. I'm an MP, I have to talk
:14:28. > :14:35.to my people in my constituency, they do like Europe, but they do
:14:35. > :14:40.not like to pay for Europe, especially they do not like to pay
:14:40. > :14:46.for Europe when, for example, France is telling us, OK, we are
:14:46. > :14:49.putting the retirement age at 60, where as we talk to our people
:14:49. > :14:53.telling them we have a retirement age of 67. This is a problem. We
:14:53. > :14:58.have always to keep in mind the communication. Many people in
:14:58. > :15:01.Britain will understand exactly what you are saying, which is why
:15:02. > :15:05.when you talk to people on the German streets, do they not say
:15:05. > :15:09.this is a bit of blackmail, they know we want to be good Europeans,
:15:09. > :15:12.they know about the German past, they know how important this is to
:15:12. > :15:21.us, and yet, the Spanish, the Italians and others, the weaker
:15:21. > :15:25.members, are effectively telling you what to do, that is blackmail?
:15:25. > :15:30.It could be, if we are not successful in communicating to the
:15:30. > :15:34.people that this is one part of the game. The other part of the game
:15:34. > :15:37.has structural reforms, we still want to have the structural reforms
:15:37. > :15:42.because of the liquidity, this money, it is a short-term solution
:15:42. > :15:48.we have. For a long-term solution we really need structural reforms,
:15:48. > :15:52.and so nobody questions a structural reform in Brussels. We
:15:52. > :15:56.are talking about speed, we are talking about tools and flexibility,
:15:56. > :16:00.and about a lot of other things, but at the end of the day, we want
:16:00. > :16:06.to have the structural reforms and this is the most important point.
:16:07. > :16:11.Thank you very much for joining us. This could be watershed moment for
:16:11. > :16:16.Britain's banks, the revelations about fiddling at Barclays and new
:16:16. > :16:19.allegations of mis-selling, come on top of computer gliches at RBS and
:16:19. > :16:22.subsidiaries, not to mention the disastrous business mistake that is
:16:22. > :16:26.brought us into the financial crisis in the first place. Today
:16:26. > :16:30.the Prime Minister said he's considering new legislation, that
:16:30. > :16:35.traders who fiddle The Libertines rate have insensed the public and
:16:35. > :16:39.politicians. -- the LIBOR rate have insensed the public and politicians.
:16:39. > :16:41.And it is an industry with profound problems. I hope everyone now
:16:41. > :16:45.understands that something went very wrong with the UK banking
:16:45. > :16:49.industry and we need to put it right. That goes to both the
:16:49. > :16:54.question of culture in the banking industry, and to the structure of
:16:54. > :17:00.the banking industry. From excessive levels of compensation,
:17:00. > :17:03.to shoddy treatment of customers, to a deceitful manipulation of one
:17:03. > :17:09.of the most important interest rates. And now, this morning, to
:17:09. > :17:12.news of yet another mis-selling scandal, we can see that we need a
:17:12. > :17:15.real change in the culture of the industry.
:17:15. > :17:22.Nick Leeson is well known as someone who served time as a rogue
:17:22. > :17:27.trader when we worked with Barings in 1995 and Gervais Williams runs
:17:27. > :17:31.the investment fund, MEN. Just an assessment of this moment in
:17:31. > :17:36.banking, does it feel like a watershed moment? It is a very
:17:36. > :17:41.important moment, LIBOR is at the centre of the banking system, to
:17:41. > :17:44.have distortions openly, in an international context, where LIBOR
:17:44. > :17:49.is depended upon internationally not just UK banks is very central.
:17:49. > :17:53.What do you think of it as from the view of the traders, how they are
:17:53. > :18:00.seeing things? A lot is made of moral outrage. Do they act in a
:18:00. > :18:03.moral way or are they trying to get the next trade? Is it always about
:18:04. > :18:08.greed? It is all about competitive edge, regulation is important in
:18:08. > :18:12.that regard. It needs to be efficient and robust, when there
:18:12. > :18:16.are breaches of regulation it needs to be stamped down upon and
:18:16. > :18:20.punishment needs to be meaningful. What happens in my case, if you
:18:20. > :18:24.push those boundaries all the time, and the regulations prove to be
:18:24. > :18:29.inefficient, or the regulators prove to be incompetent, then you
:18:29. > :18:32.know, you end up with utter contempt and disdain for the
:18:32. > :18:36.regulators. One thing that also comes through in a number of these
:18:36. > :18:41.occasions is contempt for the customers, do you think some people
:18:41. > :18:44.think the customers are mugs? think, it is impossible to tar
:18:44. > :18:49.everybody with the same brush. You are going to get an element of that
:18:49. > :18:52.in any industry, and that's going to exist in banking as well. But
:18:52. > :18:56.the e-mails that have passed around, for me, exhibit the amount of
:18:57. > :19:00.contempt there is for the regulator. The regulator is inefficient,
:19:00. > :19:05.bordering on incompetent. Do you see a problem with the entire
:19:05. > :19:12.culture of the trading floors, people just push the boundaries,
:19:12. > :19:21.try to get away with it and do, quite often? There is a big
:19:21. > :19:24.cultural issue, asset prices have been rising on off and on from the
:19:24. > :19:29.1980, it is a cultural expectation, where the tail is wagging the dog.
:19:30. > :19:33.Do you think the rest of us, who don't know what is going on, don't
:19:33. > :19:37.care very much while everything is prospering, and the statement about
:19:37. > :19:41.when the tide goes out you see who is wearing no clothes, and that is
:19:41. > :19:47.what has happened? It is what has happened, but it is more meaningful.
:19:47. > :19:50.It is a point where customers, not just in the UK, but international,
:19:50. > :19:55.they will sit up and their attitudes will change, this will be
:19:55. > :19:58.with us for many years for reputational damage. To the UK?
:19:58. > :20:01.the City for financial issues. is very bad for business? It is
:20:02. > :20:05.very bad for business. We are talking about trust, people are
:20:05. > :20:09.trusting their capital to investors in the City. Not everyone is bad,
:20:09. > :20:12.but if there is a culture whereby markets are distorted, then you
:20:12. > :20:16.just don't know, as a customer, whether you are getting a fair
:20:16. > :20:19.price or not. Do you agree with that? Whenever there is a scandal
:20:19. > :20:24.there is so much rhetoric, you can see it this week, this happened a
:20:24. > :20:28.few years ago, the traders are no longer here, everybody is OK.
:20:28. > :20:33.bad apple, nobody believes that, do they? The public, for a number of
:20:33. > :20:35.years have, they have accepted the rhetoric they have received. It is
:20:35. > :20:39.this rogue trader, it is not systemic, it is not everything
:20:39. > :20:42.going on, we have dealt with it. This can be a defining moment. As
:20:42. > :20:46.long as punishment is handed down. There is a proper investigation
:20:46. > :20:49.into everything that happened too. What do you mean that punishment is
:20:49. > :20:53.handed down, do you want new laws, as the Prime Minister seems to
:20:53. > :20:57.suggest, are there existing laws that might work, can you clawback
:20:57. > :21:00.some of the money from the people who have made money? If something
:21:00. > :21:02.criminal has been done they have to be punished. There has to be a
:21:02. > :21:06.proper investigation into everything that happened around
:21:06. > :21:10.Barclays arbgts way the markets were manipulated f people look deep
:21:10. > :21:13.enough they will find things that are wrong. The regulators need to
:21:13. > :21:19.improve. The quantity of regulation is not important. It is the quality.
:21:19. > :21:22.This came from America, didn't it? Where it was spotted first? That is
:21:22. > :21:26.half the problem were were the English people, where were the
:21:26. > :21:28.English regulators. It will have a much more long lasting effect, it
:21:28. > :21:32.is not just about regulation, regulation will close the door
:21:32. > :21:36.after all of this, and there will be an effect in the long-term. It
:21:36. > :21:39.is the customers changing and the scale of the customers changing
:21:39. > :21:43.their attitude that really changes things, as it comes through that
:21:43. > :21:47.will change things with a view to culture going through. Can you
:21:47. > :21:52.understand it with customers, we are all customers with bank
:21:52. > :21:56.accounts what can we do? We feel outraged, affronted, taken for a
:21:56. > :21:59.ride, and yet what can we do about it? The fact that there will be
:21:59. > :22:05.such a big change in terms of attitude also give the politicians
:22:05. > :22:08.opportunities to make a much more significant changes, they have been
:22:08. > :22:10.worried about damaging the City up until now, but they will be
:22:10. > :22:16.empowered now to make more significant changes, which will
:22:16. > :22:20.have a much greater effect. Do you, for instance, new legislation, new
:22:20. > :22:23.powers of scrutiny, what kind of things. Again, in the period that
:22:23. > :22:28.you have been talking about, light- touch regulation was a buzzword for
:22:28. > :22:33.a long time, discredited now, perhaps? What we will go for is
:22:33. > :22:37.simply more simplification, it is complexity, with interrelationships
:22:37. > :22:43.that is clouding the ability of people to make good decisions in
:22:43. > :22:46.terms of regulation and leadership. Tying it in with the other story,
:22:46. > :22:54.you have heard Ralph Brinkhaus saying short-term things will be OK
:22:54. > :22:57.for the City of London, but in the long-term if Europe gets its act
:22:57. > :23:02.together things will change. And looking at the banks and saying
:23:02. > :23:04.they are smelly? Something needs to be done, the regulators need to be
:23:04. > :23:08.improved. That will come through the Government and making sure
:23:08. > :23:12.everything is better. If you are on trading floor, earning a healthy
:23:12. > :23:15.living or knowing how it works, you won't want to work for the
:23:16. > :23:19.regulator for half the money? have to pay the regulators more,
:23:19. > :23:23.and attract better individuals. Any school that is finishing up, in any
:23:23. > :23:28.school across the country, the best people go towards medicine, towards
:23:28. > :23:35.the trading floors, and there is something left in the mid-thal goes
:23:35. > :23:38.towards the regulators that he can -- middle bit that go towards the
:23:38. > :23:41.regulators. You need people who better perform and are better
:23:41. > :23:45.skilled, who see how the markets are manipulated, and challenge what
:23:45. > :23:50.is going on. It doesn't matter what degree of understanding you have,
:23:50. > :23:54.if you don't challenge what is going on it will continue.
:23:54. > :24:00.It was the deadliest attack in Norway since World War II, almost
:24:00. > :24:03.one year ago, on the 22nd July, 2011, Anders Breivik detonated a
:24:03. > :24:08.bomb in Oslo's Government quarter killing eight people. The murders
:24:08. > :24:12.continued on an island a few hours later, where he shot dead 69,
:24:12. > :24:17.mostly teenage members of the governing Labour Party, on a summer
:24:17. > :24:21.camp. The trial will offer awe stage to the world, Anders Breivik
:24:21. > :24:27.wrote in his manifesto posted on the Internet before the attacks.
:24:27. > :24:32.When that trial began in April, the responsibility for prosecuting the
:24:33. > :24:41.crimes fell to Inga Berjer Engh. Her' action to Breivik's Nazi
:24:41. > :24:46.salute, was to shake hands with him. Breivik used the trial, which ended
:24:46. > :24:52.last week, as a platform for his far right political views, arguing
:24:52. > :24:55.that his victims were legitimate targets in his war against Marxist
:24:55. > :24:59.multiculturalism. She also heard the harrowing testimony of
:25:00. > :25:03.survivors who escaped the gun of a man whose only regret is that he
:25:04. > :25:09.didn't kill more. Inga Berjer Engh spent the trial
:25:09. > :25:16.demolishing Breivik's far-fetched claims to be part of a network of
:25:16. > :25:19.right-wing extremists, styling themselves, the Knights Templar.
:25:19. > :25:24.The prosecution concluded that far from being a terrorist he was, in
:25:25. > :25:28.fact, insane, and not responsible for his crimes at all, a suggestion
:25:28. > :25:32.Breivik himself claimed was offensive. In August a panel of
:25:32. > :25:38.judges will decide whether Norway's most notorious killer will serve
:25:38. > :25:44.his sentence in a prison cell, or a psychiatric ward.
:25:44. > :25:48.Earlier I caught up with the chief prosecutor in the Breivik trial,
:25:48. > :25:52.Inga Berjer Engh. He was obviously guilty of killing people, but
:25:52. > :25:55.equally obviously he wanted a platform for his views, he wanted a
:25:56. > :26:01.stage to the world, as he put it. How concerned were you about that
:26:01. > :26:05.aspect of the trial? Well, that's been a discussion in the media,
:26:05. > :26:13.especially in Norway. That discussion, I would say is
:26:14. > :26:19.meaningless n a way, but it is, I can't take that discussion too
:26:19. > :26:24.seriously's accused of a crime, when he's use accused, he has
:26:24. > :26:30.certain rights. One of the principal rights he has in court is
:26:30. > :26:36.to speak and make a statement in court, and it is very important
:26:36. > :26:41.that we hold on to our rules and principles, even though we are
:26:41. > :26:46.facing a horrible crime like this. In court Breivik gave a Nazi salute,
:26:46. > :26:53.and then you walked up and shook his hand, why did you do that?
:26:53. > :26:57.did that once, the first day of court. We always do that in court.
:26:57. > :27:04.Every trial I have, no matter what the accused has done, I go up to
:27:04. > :27:07.them and I shake hands with them, and I think the rest of the people
:27:07. > :27:12.that had a role in court also did that. All the other lawyers. I
:27:12. > :27:16.think has important. You don't feel any qualms about that, this is a
:27:16. > :27:20.man obviously with blood on his hands, who had given a Nazi salute
:27:20. > :27:24.in a country occupied by the Nazis, where there are people alive today
:27:24. > :27:28.who remember that occupation. Wasn't it quite offensive? It was
:27:28. > :27:34.offensive when he did it. I think his lawyer told him not to do it,
:27:34. > :27:41.and he stopped. But in order to shake his hand, I think it is, my
:27:41. > :27:46.goal has been to treat him as any other criminal. I think that is
:27:46. > :27:50.important. I think which managed to do -- we management to do it, and I
:27:50. > :27:53.think most of the -- we managed to do it, and most people have respect
:27:53. > :27:57.for that view. Some people disagreed with it. For me it was
:27:57. > :28:05.important to treat him like all the other criminals that I bring to
:28:05. > :28:11.court. Even though you argued in court that this man is insane?
:28:11. > :28:18.hi to argue, I was not sure when we started the trial, we were not able
:28:18. > :28:23.to conclude on that. But in order to have, in order to face a prison
:28:23. > :28:28.sentence in Norway you have to be sane. If there is any reasonable
:28:28. > :28:35.doubt about that condition, we are oblige today propose to the court
:28:35. > :28:40.to make -- obliged to the court to make an order for mental healthcare
:28:40. > :28:48.and not an ordinary prison sentence. If it was reasonable doubt, and it
:28:48. > :28:52.was after we finished after ten weeks. We had two court-appointed
:28:52. > :29:01.forensic scientists who had stated he was psychotic, and he was on the
:29:01. > :29:04.2nd of July, and he still is. They stated he had massive deillusions.
:29:04. > :29:08.How important is it for the families that he is regarded as
:29:08. > :29:17.insane, and not, in some way, totally responsible for his
:29:17. > :29:21.actions? My experience during the trial, for some families, it was
:29:21. > :29:24.very important he was looked upon as sane, and sentenced to an
:29:24. > :29:30.ordinary prison sentence. For other people they were not so concerned
:29:30. > :29:35.about it. What is common for all of them, that they need to feel secure,
:29:35. > :29:40.secure that he's going to be away, he's going to be locked up, if it's
:29:40. > :29:44.in a hospital, or it is in prison, it doesn't really matter that much
:29:44. > :29:49.for some people. They need to feel sure they are not going to meet him
:29:49. > :29:53.in the street. Isn't that a sopt soft option if he ends up in a
:29:53. > :29:57.mental hospital rather than a prison. You have bent over
:29:57. > :30:01.backwards to be humane and decent and tolerant to a defendant, but
:30:01. > :30:07.you also a duty to those who have suffered most grievously, who would
:30:08. > :30:12.like to see this man punished, some would like to see him executed?
:30:12. > :30:16.but when we face crimes that we cannot believe, like this crime, I
:30:16. > :30:21.think my role as a prosecutor is to follow the law, and the principle
:30:21. > :30:24.that is we have a long tradition of. That is why I do it and not the
:30:24. > :30:29.ones that have been hurt, because there is a lot of feelings there.
:30:29. > :30:33.Thank you for talking to us. The review show is up next, Kirsty,
:30:33. > :30:38.what have you got? Get ready for strange doings with
:30:38. > :30:42.fried chicken in William Friedkin's black commondy, Killer Joe, there
:30:42. > :30:47.is darkness at the heart of the Edvard Munch exhibition at Tate
:30:47. > :30:51.Modern. Ben Whishaw and Tom Hiddleston ride it out in the Dark
:30:51. > :31:01.Crown, join us in just a minute. There is darkness at the heart of
:31:01. > :31:40.
:31:40. > :31:45.quite a few of the newspapers, That's all from Newsnight, we lead
:31:45. > :31:49.you with a tribute to the headline writers at the Sun newspaper and
:31:49. > :31:56.their return to form this morning, this is how they advised Diamond it