:00:12. > :00:15.How much is a diamond worth, Barclays chief executive goes,
:00:15. > :00:18.their chairman returns, and the sticky questions, it seems, keep
:00:18. > :00:23.coming. The men who eased out Diamond
:00:23. > :00:26.overnight, from the Bank of England, and the FSA, were around at the
:00:26. > :00:31.time when Barclays and other banks were fiddling The Libertines rate.
:00:31. > :00:34.There is growing evidence that somebody, somewhere -- the LIBOR
:00:34. > :00:37.rate. There is growing evidence that somebody, somewhere, senior,
:00:37. > :00:43.knew about it. And the row about who was told what
:00:43. > :00:47.and when at Whitehall. A former hedge fund manager and a
:00:47. > :00:50.minister will talk about who will be brought into the fray next.
:00:50. > :00:53.Also tonight: After Newsnight revealed the scale
:00:53. > :00:57.of the problem with sexual exploitation of children in care
:00:57. > :01:00.homes, we ask the Children's Minister if his new proposals will
:01:00. > :01:04.really improve these lives. They probably see a young girl, and
:01:04. > :01:08.think, ah, she don't live with her mum and dad, because they don't
:01:08. > :01:12.care, and she's in cautious of course she can come stay at mine.
:01:12. > :01:16.Then they will just get what they want. They loathe each other
:01:16. > :01:19.outside the ring, now they will fight for the first time inside T
:01:19. > :01:22.how come David Haye and Dereck Chisora can fight in London,
:01:22. > :01:28.without even having a British license. Do I look crazy to you,
:01:28. > :01:35.since you walked in the gym, do I look crazy. REPORTER: No, but you
:01:35. > :01:39.can be crazy without looking crazy? Who knows. Ahhh! The fight's
:01:39. > :01:42.promoter, Frank Warren, is here to Duke it out with the General
:01:42. > :01:52.Secretary of the British board of boxing control in their first-ever
:01:52. > :01:53.
:01:53. > :01:58.bout. Good evening, it is our business to know your business,
:01:58. > :02:02.rang the old Barclays slogan, today their business is pretty confused.
:02:02. > :02:07.This morning, the man about to quit at chairman, reappointed himself,
:02:07. > :02:11.whilst the man who insisted he wasn't quitting, quit.
:02:11. > :02:15.An explosive account of conversations with the Bank of
:02:15. > :02:19.England over LIBOR rates in 2008 come out. How much were their
:02:20. > :02:25.actions motivated by what they thought Whitehall insiders and the
:02:25. > :02:29.Central Bank were encouraging them to do. If he's attacked, he will
:02:29. > :02:32.fight back, with those words, Bob Diamond's friends signalled to the
:02:32. > :02:36.media he was prepared to take down politicians and regulators in the
:02:36. > :02:41.fight to stay boss of Barclays. But this morning, London's financial
:02:41. > :02:45.centre woke to the news there was a man overboard, pushed by the
:02:45. > :02:49.regulator and the Central Bank. Diamond had resigned. The past 24
:02:49. > :02:53.hours have seen the British financial establishment in state of
:02:53. > :02:57.disarray. The men who "eased" out Bob Diamond, from the Bank of
:02:57. > :03:02.England, and the FSA, were around at the time when Barclays, and
:03:02. > :03:07.other banks,were fiddling the LIBOR rate. And today, Barclays provided
:03:07. > :03:12.evidence that somebody, somewhere, seen senior, knew about it.
:03:12. > :03:17.-- senior, knew about it. It was in October 2008, with the
:03:17. > :03:22.City still reeling from the Lehman Brothers crisis, LIBOR, the bank
:03:22. > :03:27.lending rate, was a key barometer for the rate of lending for banks,
:03:27. > :03:34.and for Barclays it was too high, consistently, signalling the bank
:03:35. > :03:37.could be in trouble. This man called Bob Diamond, after this man,
:03:37. > :03:41.Jerry Del Missier, instructed staff to fiddle the interest rate,
:03:41. > :03:44.believing he was acting on the orders of the Central Bank. The
:03:44. > :03:48.staff reluctantly complied, one said, they will not be posting
:03:48. > :03:54.honest prices. We were proudly one of the most
:03:54. > :03:57.sensitive countries in the world to LIBOR funding. So it was very keen
:03:57. > :04:02.for the Bank of England, the Treasury, everybody in the banking
:04:02. > :04:10.community, to see, that LIBOR, which was spiking up at that time,
:04:10. > :04:14.to be managed down, or to be get down as quickly as possible. What
:04:14. > :04:19.we are seeing is some people some what bent the rules to imply it was
:04:19. > :04:23.getting down faster than it really Today, Barclays submitted a note of
:04:23. > :04:27.the Tucker phone call, suggesting the rate had been fiddled,
:04:27. > :04:37.downwards, under political pressure from senior figures in Whitehall.
:04:37. > :04:47.
:04:47. > :04:51.There was a public interest in keeping the banks in business, and
:04:52. > :04:55.that coincided with Barclays' private interest in loi-balling its
:04:55. > :04:59.estimate -- low-balling its estimates on the interest rates,
:04:59. > :05:02.because it made Barclays look more credible in the markets. Yes there
:05:02. > :05:07.is kind of a public interest defence of all of this. But I think
:05:07. > :05:11.this needs to be set in the larger context of elites having made
:05:11. > :05:17.massive errors of judgment, before and after the financial crisis.
:05:17. > :05:23.Afterall, the regulatory and the political elites, co-promoted this
:05:23. > :05:27.dodgy investment banking before 2008.
:05:27. > :05:30.Baroness Videra, Gordon Brown's City fixer at the time, said she
:05:30. > :05:33.had no recollections of any conversations with Paul Tucker
:05:33. > :05:37.about LIBOR. Alistair Darling too has denied it was him. But if a
:05:37. > :05:41.politician did pressure the bank to pressure Barclays to rig the market,
:05:41. > :05:46.it is not, say the experts, a victimless crime. This doesn't
:05:46. > :05:50.excuse the fact that this is a global benchmark that is trusted
:05:50. > :05:54.worldwide to be accurate. I understand there might be a reason
:05:54. > :06:01.for banks not to look like they are riskier than their peers, but that
:06:01. > :06:05.doesn't mean you can go and suggest that something should be change.
:06:05. > :06:10.There are a lot of innocent companies, trading firms, pension
:06:10. > :06:14.funds that relied on this rate to be accurate. That is a complete
:06:14. > :06:19.breakdown in the trust system in the financial markets. With Bob
:06:19. > :06:23.Diamond gone, the chairman, Marcus Agius, quickly had to unsack
:06:23. > :06:27.himself. At Canary Wharf, at Barclays and across the finance
:06:27. > :06:30.industry, they are braced for prosecutions, more banks to be
:06:30. > :06:34.fined, some class action that is could cost billions. Business
:06:34. > :06:37.experts are calling for a Leveson- style investigation, felt
:06:37. > :06:41.strengthened by today's investigations. There is a contest,
:06:41. > :06:44.isn't there, between those that want to see what has gone wrong as
:06:44. > :06:48.a narrow, technical problem to do with the culture of the trading
:06:48. > :06:53.room. Those of us who see it as a power elite problem, and the more
:06:53. > :06:58.that comes out, the more it appears to be a power elite problem, about
:06:58. > :07:03.the cosy relations between political, regulatory and financial
:07:03. > :07:08.elites, which lead to misjudgments of the public interest. Now, that
:07:08. > :07:12.kind of problem is only ameanable to a judicial inquiry, with a QC
:07:12. > :07:17.asking the questions. The future of Barclays matters, it
:07:17. > :07:23.is one of the biggest lenders to British business, but it is also a
:07:23. > :07:27.giant global investment bank w more than a �1 trillion of debt. The
:07:27. > :07:33.Diamond years have not been so kind to the domestic part of Barclays
:07:33. > :07:36.market. Four years ago Barclays' was lending �52 billion to non-
:07:36. > :07:43.financial and non-property businesses in the UK. 27% of all
:07:43. > :07:47.loans. Now the figure is just �38 billion, and just 16% of business
:07:47. > :07:52.loans. For Barclays' board, without Bob Diamond, they have got to think
:07:52. > :07:57.about, one, whether they can find someone to run an investment bank
:07:57. > :08:00.this size, that they will have a lot of confidence in. As well as,
:08:00. > :08:05.do they really want to have an investment bank this size at all.
:08:05. > :08:10.That debate must be going on right now in a very heated sense, trying
:08:10. > :08:14.to figure out what is the strategy of Barclays going forward.
:08:14. > :08:18.Diamond built his career, and personal fortune, by taking high
:08:18. > :08:23.risks with other people's money. Some how, he failed to spot at the
:08:23. > :08:27.very core of Barclays, a culture of contempt for principle, and for the
:08:27. > :08:34.rules. But so did the regulators, and so did the politicians.
:08:34. > :08:37.We will find out more tomorrow. Once again, it seems the political
:08:37. > :08:42.establishment is being called into question, who knew what, when, and
:08:43. > :08:49.what was the chain of command, were there winks and nods from the
:08:49. > :08:52.Treasury and the ministers at the time the LIBOR rate was being fixed
:08:52. > :08:57.between 2006-2009. Our political editor is here. It was interesting
:08:57. > :09:00.to hear the phrase used, "a power elite problem", how do you see
:09:00. > :09:04.this? The Government will be relieved it is not the political
:09:04. > :09:09.establishment, it is the Labour establishment, just for today, 24
:09:09. > :09:14.hours ahead of Bob Diamond's appearance, you have the spotlight
:09:14. > :09:17.thrown on the 2005 Labour cohort people inside the Treasury. Those
:09:17. > :09:21.civil servants inside the Treasury said it isn't about Alistair
:09:21. > :09:27.Darling, from whom we had hasty denial, that this is anything he
:09:27. > :09:30.would dream of doing, it is something people call the Brownite
:09:30. > :09:36.Treasury opposition. In power he was also trying to run the Treasury
:09:36. > :09:42.through people like Baroness Videra, we had a denial from her and Ed
:09:43. > :09:46.Balls, a denial from him. 9 current -- the current Government is happy,
:09:46. > :09:49.it shows it is a political fight t goes to the heart of politics at
:09:49. > :09:53.the moment. It is not just about the banking scandal but who can be
:09:53. > :09:57.trusted with the City and the public finances. And pretty
:09:57. > :10:00.frenetic briefing from both the Government and Labour. You feel
:10:00. > :10:05.that today the Government had the better day of it? This evening we
:10:05. > :10:09.have seen the Lords. It seems technical this issue of what sort
:10:09. > :10:13.of inquiry, should it be a judicial one, which is what Labour wants o
:10:13. > :10:16.should it be this narrower one which, is a parliamentary one.
:10:16. > :10:19.Tonight the Lords voted for the parliamentary one. So the
:10:19. > :10:23.Government ostensibly the better day. There are a series of reasons
:10:23. > :10:25.why they should be worried, people on the select committees, Tories
:10:25. > :10:28.saying even if it is a parliamentary inquiry, it will go
:10:28. > :10:32.on and on, longer than December, which is the deadline the
:10:32. > :10:35.Government wants it to report by t will probably end up having to call
:10:36. > :10:38.many more leaders of banks, probably the Bank of England
:10:38. > :10:43.governor. It won't, in the limited form the Government wants it to be,
:10:43. > :10:47.it won't be small beer. So, one down, you might say, but
:10:47. > :10:51.how many more to go? We know that the FSA investigations are on going,
:10:51. > :10:59.and up to maybe 20 other banks might anybody the spotlight. With
:10:59. > :11:07.us here to discuss further the former Chancellor, niejgel, now
:11:07. > :11:10.Lord Lawson, David Yarrow and Chuka Umunna our other guests.
:11:10. > :11:14.What do you think was happening between the bank and the Bank of
:11:14. > :11:17.England, is it conceivable that Barclays was some how nudged into a
:11:17. > :11:24.position they wouldn't have otherwise taken? I think it is
:11:24. > :11:29.important, first of all, to realise that there are two Separate
:11:29. > :11:33.episodes. As we know from the FSA inquiry, this thing started at
:11:33. > :11:43.least in 2005. This was going on for some time, before the financial
:11:43. > :11:45.
:11:45. > :11:50.crisis, before the events of 2008, before this telephone call between
:11:50. > :11:54.Barclays' Diamond and Paul Tucker, the deputy Governor of the Bank of
:11:54. > :11:59.England. During that period it was entirely a matter of Barclays and
:11:59. > :12:04.the banks, traders. No-one bank can fix the LIBOR rate on its own t
:12:04. > :12:08.requires collusion, and a number. - It requires collusion and a
:12:08. > :12:11.number. What they were doing was for private gain, clearly, it was
:12:11. > :12:16.totally disreputable. There is no breath of a public interest defence
:12:16. > :12:23.at that stage. That was what it was going on for time. There is in this
:12:23. > :12:27.later stage, when I think it was wholly impror to fiddle t but you
:12:27. > :12:31.can mount a public interest defence. We understand there was
:12:31. > :12:35.correspondence between the Bank of England, normal, and Barclays, some
:12:35. > :12:38.how Barclays took away the message, or said that they z that they had
:12:39. > :12:43.received encouragement, or a suggestion they could maybe keep
:12:43. > :12:48.the rates lower, is that conceivable? We don't know if that
:12:48. > :12:51.happened or not. I think the hearing tomorrow will be quite
:12:51. > :12:56.prorpbt, when Bob Diamond appears - - important, when Bob Diamond
:12:56. > :12:59.appears before the select committee, chaired by a very important man,
:12:59. > :13:03.Andrew Tyrie, he used to be my special adviser when I was
:13:03. > :13:09.Chancellor, he will want to get to the bottom of this. One of the
:13:09. > :13:14.areas you may be assured is what exactly transpired in the course
:13:14. > :13:20.pond dense and the telephone conversation between -- telephone
:13:20. > :13:24.conversation between Paul Tucker and Bob Diamond. Chuka Umunna,
:13:24. > :13:28.Baroness Videra has been dragged into this, she denies any
:13:29. > :13:37.involvement. She wrote that document entitled "Getting LIBOR
:13:37. > :13:41.down: Getting LIBOR Down is Desirable". Has she anything to do
:13:41. > :13:45.with it? She denies it. If you look at the memo it refers to a
:13:45. > :13:50.Whitehall source t isn't specific. This does have the whiff of mud
:13:50. > :13:54.slinging. It will be interesting to see what exactly Mr Diamond says
:13:54. > :13:58.about this memo tomorrow, because obviously that needs to be cleared
:13:58. > :14:02.up. What exactly does it refer to. I think secondly, also, the
:14:02. > :14:06.position of the Bank of England, I think this is a very serious matter
:14:06. > :14:09.and needs to be cleared up as soon as possible. I think Mr Tucker,
:14:09. > :14:13.obviously, the sooner he comes before the Treasury Select
:14:13. > :14:17.Committee, in relation to their on going hearings on this matter, the
:14:17. > :14:23.better. Let me ask you your gut feeling, the same question, is it
:14:23. > :14:31.inconceivable that a Labour minister or adviser, would he exert
:14:32. > :14:36.pressure on a -- bank to do that type of thing? I would find that
:14:36. > :14:39.quite remarkable. Take out the word "misreport", and say we would
:14:39. > :14:44.understand it would be important for you to lower the rates. If
:14:44. > :14:49.there was some kind of nudge or wink to that I allowed them to
:14:49. > :14:54.think it was OK, could that conceivably happen? I can't see
:14:54. > :14:59.that happening myself. It is one thing to want to see the cost of
:14:59. > :15:06.borrowing reduced for businesses, it is an on going issue for them
:15:06. > :15:08.now, it is quite another to encourage misreporting and
:15:08. > :15:11.deceitful behaviour. I would be very surprised if anyone from the
:15:11. > :15:14.Treasury or the Bank of England were involved. You are right in the
:15:14. > :15:19.middle of this industry, David Yarrow, what do you think could
:15:19. > :15:24.have happened there? It is all supposition, as Lord Lawson says. I
:15:24. > :15:28.think we will know an awful lot more tomorrow. Time Diamond, I
:15:29. > :15:33.think maybe has slightly more moral sovereignty, in very small levels,
:15:33. > :15:36.than he had maybe 24 hours ago. He clearly is no fool. I would
:15:36. > :15:41.imagine's going to go in there all guns blazing tomorrow. You think
:15:41. > :15:47.this is revenge? I don't know about that, and that's, I wouldn't want
:15:47. > :15:52.to couch it in those terms. Let's not forget the summer of 2008 was
:15:52. > :15:57.the Wild West, markets were broken. Whatever happened with regard to
:15:58. > :16:03.LIBOR submission, some people gained, borrowings gained, maybe
:16:03. > :16:08.lenders lost, it was the Wild West and markets were very broken.
:16:08. > :16:11.saying it was the Wild West, do you condone or sympathise, to an extent,
:16:11. > :16:16.with a process that was probably going on at the time? Absolutely
:16:16. > :16:20.not. You will not get me either to come here and be an apologyist for
:16:20. > :16:26.what has gone done. Never in my time of 25 years in banking, has
:16:26. > :16:30.the self-esteem of the collective I work for been lower, sensitivity is
:16:30. > :16:35.never an word associated with bankers, but now people are very
:16:35. > :16:39.aware why people in the street have total contempt. I don't know if
:16:39. > :16:43.Vince Cable could have used the word cesspit, but I can understand
:16:43. > :16:46.him using that word. You say that Bob Diamond and Barclays couldn't
:16:46. > :16:51.have done this on their own, we will see other banks in the same
:16:51. > :16:54.position as Barclays, once the FSA has finished their inquiry? That is
:16:54. > :17:00.bound to happen. Barclays are in the frame, largely, because they
:17:00. > :17:04.were the first to settle. And the first to fess up, as it were. They
:17:04. > :17:10.weren't alone in this. That doesn't make any better. But there is much
:17:10. > :17:14.more to be known. Let me say anything about the City of London,
:17:14. > :17:18.which is a world class financial centre, there are not all that many
:17:18. > :17:23.major industries in which this country is world class. It is a
:17:23. > :17:26.world class financial centre, long may be it remain so. And it is not
:17:26. > :17:30.just British banks who are involved in this, there are foreign banks in
:17:30. > :17:34.London involved in this, and there the standard of ethics, I'm afraid
:17:34. > :17:38.to saying, on Wall Street, is probably even lower than in the
:17:38. > :17:42.City of London. That is a very key point, actually. This isn't just a
:17:42. > :17:46.case of indulging in another bout of banker bashing. I think Lord
:17:46. > :17:51.Lawson make as good point there about, we have one of the global
:17:51. > :17:55.financial services sectors here. But if it is to endure, it has got
:17:55. > :17:59.to demonstrate that those qualities of integrity, honesty, which, of
:17:59. > :18:03.course, form part of how the City came into being, over a couple of
:18:03. > :18:07.centuries, are still there. So there is a much bigger public
:18:07. > :18:11.interest here. Very directly, let's imagine that ten more banks get
:18:11. > :18:14.found out to have colluded in this type of operation. If ten more
:18:15. > :18:20.chief executives had to leave, would that be a good thing, would
:18:20. > :18:23.we be in a better place at the end of that? I don't think this is
:18:23. > :18:27.about individual scalps, this is why we have been calling for a
:18:27. > :18:30.commission to actually look at the culture, and the practices in the
:18:30. > :18:35.financial services sector. What doesn't wash is this notion that
:18:35. > :18:40.some how this was just a few bad eggs, a tiny minority. This is a
:18:40. > :18:45.cultural problem. If you look at Barclays' case, yesterday they were
:18:46. > :18:48.fined �59 million by the FSA for the attempted rigging of LIBOR, but
:18:49. > :18:53.they have also sustained fines of over �11 million over the past
:18:53. > :18:57.three years, for failing to make proper reports to the FSA and
:18:57. > :19:01.failing to properly separate out their monies from client monies.
:19:01. > :19:04.There was a particular situation there, but from the point of view
:19:04. > :19:09.of the public, one important point to get acorrection a complete myth
:19:09. > :19:14.has been propogated that there are not proper laws and sanctions that
:19:14. > :19:17.can be prevailed upon that if there is wrongdoing people can be brought
:19:17. > :19:23.to justice. There are market provisions under the Financial
:19:23. > :19:26.Services Act, and a Fraud Act 2006. That is precisely why I'm not
:19:26. > :19:29.surprised that the Serious Fraud Office have been called in to look
:19:29. > :19:34.at this. Where there is criminal wrongdoing, people have to see we
:19:34. > :19:37.are all equal in the eyes of the law. It is no good, somebody in my
:19:37. > :19:41.constituencies, who commits an offence, and steals �50, the strong
:19:41. > :19:46.arm of the law comes down on them and they are banged up. Where you
:19:46. > :19:48.see white collar crime t seemingly goes unpinnished, which is why the
:19:48. > :19:53.criminal investigation of this is an important part of the piece, in
:19:53. > :19:56.addition to having that proper judge-led inquiry into culture.
:19:56. > :20:01.That is where we will go next. Thank you very much. We are heading
:20:01. > :20:05.to the US now. An investigation into the manipulation of LIBOR was
:20:05. > :20:10.opened back in 200, because they suspected the banks weren't -- 2008,
:20:10. > :20:15.because they suspected the banks weren't behaving properly. Our
:20:15. > :20:20.guest is head of the future trading commission which led the operation,
:20:20. > :20:24.and responsible for preventing future fraud of the market. Do you
:20:24. > :20:28.think, are you surprised, this hasn't been pursued in a criminal
:20:28. > :20:32.way? Good to be with you. I think that what is important is this
:20:32. > :20:35.benchmark rate, the mother of all rates in the interest rate markets,
:20:36. > :20:42.be honest and there be ining at thety. What we found at Barclays,
:20:42. > :20:46.working with the F -- integrity. What we found at Barclays working
:20:47. > :20:51.with the FSA and authorities, is it wasn't the case with Barclays, but
:20:51. > :20:57.we all lost in that case, we brought a strong action against
:20:58. > :21:02.Barclays this week and they settled. Why was it down to hold you -- you
:21:02. > :21:06.to hold Barclays to account, it was you who tipped off the FSA here?
:21:06. > :21:11.You are kind, it is the staff at the futures trading commission, not
:21:11. > :21:17.myself as the chairman. We oversee a markets called the futures'
:21:17. > :21:20.market. Many of your viewers might not know us, it is traditionally
:21:20. > :21:25.agriculture markets, futures help hedge the risk of corn and wheat,
:21:25. > :21:28.and also interest rates, we happen to oversee a large market called
:21:28. > :21:33.the euro-dollar market, which is priced to the interests, set in
:21:33. > :21:37.London, called London InterBank offering rate. That is why we got
:21:37. > :21:41.involved several years ago, reached out to the FSA, worked co-
:21:41. > :21:45.operatively with them and brought this joint action. Realistically
:21:45. > :21:48.you would be surprised if Barclays were alone in this, right? Because
:21:48. > :21:52.I don't want to compromise any other enforcement matters, I don't
:21:52. > :21:59.want to go there. I would say that in this matter, we are identified
:21:59. > :22:05.four other banks. We call them bank A, B, C and D, where Barclays
:22:05. > :22:10.attempt today manipulate this rate, reaching out to others, asking --
:22:10. > :22:15.attempted to manipulate this rate, reaching out to others to aid them,
:22:15. > :22:20.and they aided them. They are four British banks? A very good question,
:22:20. > :22:25.but I didn't say. Really I can't compromise the engoing enforcement
:22:25. > :22:28.matters. Let me ask you something a lot -- the on going enforcement
:22:28. > :22:33.matters. Let me ask you something puzzling a lot of people here. What
:22:33. > :22:37.kind of pressure, do you think n the Wild West days of 2008, would a
:22:37. > :22:42.bank come under from Central Bank, from politicians, over something
:22:42. > :22:47.like LIBOR rates would, it surprise you if they had bowed to pressure?
:22:47. > :22:50.I think that Barclays did falsely report the rate, because they were
:22:50. > :22:54.worried about their reputation. That is no excuse for breaking the
:22:54. > :22:58.law. The law is very clear on this side of the ocean, and I'm sure on
:22:58. > :23:02.your side of the ocean. That you're not supposed to falsely report
:23:02. > :23:05.these rates. We all lose out if they do. Even if senior management
:23:05. > :23:11.was thinking some how they were protecting the reputation of the
:23:11. > :23:17.bank. So, in terms of fixing LIBOR, this has global implications, do
:23:17. > :23:21.you think the next step now is criminal prosecution? It does have
:23:21. > :23:26.global implication. Each of us, we might have a car loan, or mortgage
:23:26. > :23:31.that in that fine print might be related to something called a
:23:31. > :23:35.variable rate LIBOR. So it has very far-reaching implications, and we
:23:35. > :23:42.have to make sure the submissions are honest and clean of any
:23:42. > :23:47.attempted manipulation or false reporting.
:23:47. > :23:51.There is not a town, a village or hamlet in which children are not
:23:51. > :23:54.being sexually exploited, the childrens' commissioner said last
:23:54. > :23:58.month. After a Newsnight investigation exposed the problems
:23:58. > :24:02.of children in cautious we heard today what the Government plans to
:24:02. > :24:05.do to protect them and other vulnerable people. I will be asking
:24:05. > :24:08.the childrens minister and the deputy childrens minister f their
:24:08. > :24:12.plans will -- Children's Minister and the Deputy Children's Minister
:24:12. > :24:18.if their plans will make a difference. First we hear the story
:24:18. > :24:22.of a girl who ended up the victim of sexual predators. We have a
:24:22. > :24:28.child reported missing from home, we are going to look for a child
:24:28. > :24:31.missing for four days. 8.00pm in Blackburn, a pioneering police
:24:31. > :24:34.protection team is on the trail of a 14-year-old girl, one of the
:24:34. > :24:39.thousands of children who go missing in Britain every year. One
:24:39. > :24:43.of the main aims to try to safeguard her from the sexual
:24:43. > :24:47.exploitation the Government says is blighting the lives of too many
:24:47. > :24:51.young people. Abows that often involves gangs or groups of men.
:24:51. > :24:54.-- abuse that often involves gangs or groups of men. We are going to
:24:54. > :24:58.an address where we believe a number of parties are held at.
:24:58. > :25:01.Because of the intelligence we have from our interaction with this
:25:01. > :25:11.young girl on previous occasions, we believe she might be attending
:25:11. > :25:13.
:25:13. > :25:18.these parties. The intelligence is accurate, they find the girl in the
:25:18. > :25:22.company of two older boys. She is not pleased to be rescued from
:25:22. > :25:25.people she thought were friends. And not pleased she will face more
:25:25. > :25:31.questioning in the days ahead. Police used to target suspected
:25:31. > :25:35.child abusers, and through them, find potential victims. Operation
:25:35. > :25:39.Engage in Blackburn, works the other way round, they follow
:25:39. > :25:44.potential victims, who may lead them to possible abusers, the
:25:44. > :25:47.result is a huge increase in conviction rates. If we can find
:25:47. > :25:50.children vulnerable to sexual exploitation, and deal with them
:25:50. > :25:54.and work with them, we are much more likely to get the information
:25:54. > :25:58.to lead to us the perpetrators. The perpetrators hide from us, the kids
:25:58. > :26:01.less so. Whatever the details of this case, long-term police
:26:01. > :26:05.operations like this one in Blackburn, have helped reveal how
:26:05. > :26:08.many children in Britain are potentially vulnerable to sexual
:26:08. > :26:13.exploitation. But it is a problem that takes many forms, and that's
:26:13. > :26:18.why it is so difficult to tackle. Sexual exploitation involves
:26:18. > :26:23.something offered in return for sexual favours. Sweets, drugs,
:26:23. > :26:25.alcohol, money, or apparent affection. In plain language, it is
:26:25. > :26:30.grooming. The Deputy Children's Commissioner has been told it is
:26:30. > :26:33.happening in every town, village and hamlet in the country.
:26:34. > :26:39.The Children's Society is one of the charities trying to deal with
:26:39. > :26:42.it. One of the key challenges about child exploitation, is the fact
:26:42. > :26:46.that children themselves don't often recognise it. They don't
:26:46. > :26:50.realise they are being manipulated or being exploited, they are being
:26:50. > :26:55.used. Quite often they think they are in control, they think they are
:26:55. > :26:58.the ones making the choices and decisions. Newsnight has seen
:26:58. > :27:03.images too graphic to broadcast, passed around to hundreds of people
:27:03. > :27:07.on a messaging service. Showing girls in their mid-teens performing
:27:07. > :27:11.sex acts on boys of about the same age, some of whom we understand are
:27:11. > :27:16.members of a London gang. The filming and the passing round of
:27:16. > :27:20.such pictures are another form of exploitation that's thought to be
:27:20. > :27:25.not uncommon amongst some young people.
:27:25. > :27:29.Most cases of exploitation involve children living at home. But a
:27:29. > :27:35.disproportionate number of victims, more than one in five, are in care.
:27:35. > :27:38.Some care homes, the Government says, are specifically targeted by
:27:39. > :27:43.abusers. Julie, not her real name, who was in care for four years, and
:27:43. > :27:49.often ran away, now believes that she was one of many similar,
:27:49. > :27:55.willing victims of older men. they just are after sex, aren't
:27:55. > :27:58.they. And they probably just see a young girl and think, ah, she don't
:27:59. > :28:03.live with her mum and dad, because they don't care, and she's in care,
:28:03. > :28:09.of course she's going to come and stay at mine, do you know what I
:28:09. > :28:14.mean. And, and, then they will just get what they want. They pour a bit
:28:14. > :28:19.of alcohol in you and then you are legless. Research published today
:28:19. > :28:23.finds evidence that children in care are sometimes introduced to
:28:23. > :28:26.their abusers by other children, who may themselves be being
:28:26. > :28:32.exploited. Julie had a friend, now she thinks no friend at all, who
:28:32. > :28:36.led her into danger. She was like talking to this lad, they were like
:28:36. > :28:42.friends, or something, but I didn't like him. And I wanted to go home,
:28:42. > :28:47.but because it was late, and then, she was like pulling my arm, you
:28:47. > :28:52.know. Stay out, stay out and stuff. And then because he wanted her to
:28:52. > :28:57.stay out, so I got pulled along any way. They made me sleep or whatever
:28:57. > :29:04.on the wooden floor while they were doing things. What did he try to do
:29:04. > :29:09.to you? Eh, like, well he did do stuff to me, like have sex and
:29:09. > :29:13.stuff. And like he were hitting me and swearing at me and stuff.
:29:13. > :29:17.In an investigation into the care system last month, Newsnight
:29:17. > :29:21.revealed many of the problems the Government is now seeking to solve.
:29:21. > :29:24.Many vulnerable children are actually being exposed to greater
:29:24. > :29:29.danger by the very people supposed to protect them. Councils often
:29:29. > :29:34.send them away from their own areas to places, including some coastal
:29:34. > :29:39.resort, which have cheap property for private care homes, but also a
:29:39. > :29:44.high concentration of sex offenders and prostitution. We find it
:29:44. > :29:47.utterly extraordinary that they would want to send their most
:29:47. > :29:50.vulnerable children to an area with such significant social problems.
:29:50. > :29:55.We think it is irresponsible of them, and cynical. Today the
:29:55. > :30:00.Government announced it would make it harder for councils to send
:30:00. > :30:05.their children away from their home area. It promised to have better
:30:05. > :30:08.data on the number of children in care and missing, saying councils
:30:08. > :30:12.are underestimating the problem. It ordered a review of the quality of
:30:12. > :30:16.care homes T wants police to work heard, like those in Blackburn, to
:30:16. > :30:24.win the trust of victims, and foings victims of abuse. Partly as
:30:24. > :30:27.a means to secure more convictions. Back in the house where they found
:30:27. > :30:31.the missing girl, they are still suspicious about the two 17-year-
:30:31. > :30:35.old lads there. Can I have a look through your pockets for ID.
:30:35. > :30:40.they will be taken to the politician. You are under arrest
:30:40. > :30:45.for child abduction, you do not have to say anything...Later,
:30:45. > :30:48.boys were released without charge. With no evidence of anything
:30:49. > :30:53.untoward having happened. But they were formally warned to have no
:30:53. > :30:57.further contact with the girl. She lives at home, but in other cases,
:30:57. > :31:00.Blackburn Police work closely with care home staff, and the
:31:01. > :31:05.responsible local authority, to try to ensure children run away less.
:31:05. > :31:09.Where we started off at maybe 50% of the children we were dealing
:31:09. > :31:13.with were from children's homes, now we are down to about 8% of the
:31:13. > :31:17.children that we see referrals from being from children's homes. I
:31:17. > :31:25.would say that we have had a dramatic effect on that, and again
:31:25. > :31:29.it all comes down to multientity core location. Better information
:31:29. > :31:33.sharing is at the heart of what the Government wants to do. It will let
:31:33. > :31:37.the inspection agency, Ofsted, tell police the location of care homes.
:31:37. > :31:40.Much depends on councils, which in many cases have cut their youth
:31:40. > :31:45.service, which can't always find local care provision, and which
:31:45. > :31:48.don't always want to acknowledge the danger that children may face
:31:48. > :31:52.for fear they will have to spend more money to tackle it. The moment
:31:52. > :31:57.you accept there is a problem in your area, then you will have to
:31:57. > :32:00.invest some money. You are going to have to invest some time and
:32:00. > :32:03.resources to respond to it, therefore, it is easier to either
:32:04. > :32:08.ignore it or just say, no, we don't have their problem. I think that is
:32:08. > :32:13.the key issue. In Blackburn, police are out most nights, touring the
:32:13. > :32:18.hot spots, where children are exploited. But a problem so
:32:18. > :32:24.widespread, so old, and so hard in some ways to define, won't easily
:32:24. > :32:31.be solved, even by the best- intentioned of authorities.
:32:31. > :32:35.The Children's Minister, Tim Loughton, and the Deputy Children's
:32:35. > :32:41.Minister are here. Tim Loughton, bluntly, this comes down to market
:32:41. > :32:46.forces, tragically. If 76% of children's homes are run for profit,
:32:46. > :32:50.you cannot stop private care homes being set up in place where is
:32:50. > :32:55.accommodation is cheap, can you? but this isn't down to ownership of
:32:55. > :32:58.this form of children's care. What it should be down to is the quality
:32:58. > :33:01.of the care offered, to often very vulnerable children. We have over
:33:01. > :33:04.65,000 people in the care system, through no fault of their own,
:33:04. > :33:09.spread across the country. We don't have children's homes spread across
:33:09. > :33:14.the country, they are in clusters in certain seaside resort,
:33:14. > :33:19.concentrated in the south-east and north-east of England. And 50% of
:33:19. > :33:22.children in those homes come from well out of their area. I don't
:33:22. > :33:25.believe that is the safest place and the best way to look after
:33:25. > :33:29.these children. We understand that, the point is, if these are being
:33:29. > :33:33.run by private companies, which three quarters of them are, you
:33:33. > :33:37.will not get them to invest in areas where the accommodation is
:33:37. > :33:40.more expensive. So they will be in these deeply unsuitable places, how
:33:40. > :33:44.do you stop that? We are paying large amounts of money. A billion
:33:44. > :33:49.pounds is being spent on up to 5,000 children in residential care
:33:49. > :33:52.homes. That is an average of �200,000 a child in each year. That
:33:52. > :33:55.is an awful lot of money. I don't believe we are getting value for
:33:55. > :33:58.money. I believe the homes should come for the children, not the
:33:58. > :34:01.children going to the homes. We should be looking after these
:34:01. > :34:05.children, where they are safest were we can look after them and
:34:05. > :34:10.give them the support they need. That is not by dumping them in
:34:10. > :34:15.coastal resorts hundreds of miles from their homes in too many cases.
:34:15. > :34:20.That is a platitude? It is not. is that message for, for those who
:34:20. > :34:22.open the homes or councils paying for the homes? This is primarily
:34:22. > :34:28.the responsibility of the corporate parents, local authorities,
:34:28. > :34:31.responsible for those 65,500 people in care at the moment. They have
:34:31. > :34:34.the responsibility to make sure those children are safe, and they
:34:34. > :34:37.are getting the best possible care. I don't think they can justifiably
:34:37. > :34:41.say they are looking after those children in the best way if they
:34:41. > :34:44.are dumping them hundreds of miles away from home. Is that your
:34:44. > :34:49.understanding, is it the local authorities to blame for sending
:34:49. > :34:52.them further away? I would completely concur with that. Local
:34:52. > :34:56.authorities are, as the minister said, the corporate parent, the
:34:56. > :34:59.legal parent of children in cautious under particular types of
:34:59. > :35:02.care orders. It is their responsibility to place the
:35:02. > :35:08.children. Local authorities actually have a response, a duty in
:35:08. > :35:12.law, to make sure that they have a sufficiency of places for children
:35:12. > :35:16.in care, within their local authority area. What we know is
:35:16. > :35:19.there are some local authorities that have no residential care homes
:35:19. > :35:23.within their areas and they export all their children outside. There
:35:23. > :35:28.are others, interestingly enough, that do have their own residential
:35:28. > :35:31.care homes and they still export their children, so it is quite an
:35:31. > :35:35.interesting phenomenon. Debbie Jones, the President of the
:35:35. > :35:39.Associations of children and directors services, say there are
:35:39. > :35:43.good reasons to place a child away from home, even when they are at
:35:43. > :35:48.risk. Is that overused, do you think that response is overused?
:35:48. > :35:51.is overused. What I would say, and I know this from years and years of
:35:51. > :35:57.experience, and now from talking to children, who have experience of
:35:57. > :36:02.being sexually exploited, is that too often children are placed in
:36:02. > :36:07.homes as a matter of expeedcy. One of the 11 recommendations we have
:36:07. > :36:11.made today, and this is not rocket science, every child who is placed
:36:11. > :36:16.in care home, indeed whether it is foster home or residential home,
:36:16. > :36:20.needs to have a proper assessment before they are placed. It is not
:36:20. > :36:23.about making generalised at the same times about where children are
:36:23. > :36:27.placed. The important thing is that each individual child is in the
:36:27. > :36:30.right place for that child. And Tim Loughton, you have made some
:36:30. > :36:35.changes that will come in immediately, which allows the data
:36:35. > :36:39.to be shared between Ofsted and police and all the rest of it. If
:36:39. > :36:44.Ofsted now finds these places unsuitable, because it has the data
:36:44. > :36:47.at its fingertips, it will close these places down? We have changed
:36:47. > :36:50.the way Ofsted inspect children's homes. And stopped any more
:36:50. > :36:54.children being placed in homes thought to be unsuitable? Ofsted
:36:54. > :36:58.have the power to close down children's homes f they inspect and
:36:59. > :37:02.fail and can't get their act together they will not take
:37:02. > :37:05.children. Will children's homes shut as a result of these measures?
:37:05. > :37:09.I don't know, we have changed the way we inspect children's homes as
:37:09. > :37:12.of April. Only 2% of children's homes inspected were deemed to be
:37:12. > :37:18.failing. I don't believe that figure, I think we have a lot of
:37:18. > :37:21.very good children's homes, but we have a lot of inadequate ones. The
:37:21. > :37:25.anecdotal evidence through the changes we have made through Ofsted
:37:25. > :37:29.is a greater number of homes will be found lacking. They need to get
:37:29. > :37:32.their act together quickly. Found lacking and shut down? If they
:37:32. > :37:34.don't get their act together they will close down or local
:37:34. > :37:38.authorities will not place their children there, they should find a
:37:38. > :37:44.better, more suitable, loving, caring place for those vulnerable
:37:44. > :37:47.children. It is up to the corporate parent to take that decision now.
:37:47. > :37:52.The wider cultural implication of what you have said recently, is
:37:52. > :37:58.there isn't a town, village or hamlet in which children aren't
:37:58. > :38:03.being exploited. Do you think this is getting worse? Firstly, let me
:38:03. > :38:07.say that statement was given to me by a police officer, who had
:38:07. > :38:10.undertaken a major investigation in his area. Those were his findings,
:38:10. > :38:18.that I was reporting on. He was doing further investigations. What
:38:18. > :38:21.I have depound, and we haven't -- found and we haven't yet concluded
:38:21. > :38:24.all our data analysis, what you have found from the data gathered
:38:24. > :38:30.already, is children are being sexually exploited all over the
:38:30. > :38:35.country, in rural, urban and metropolitan areas, from people of
:38:35. > :38:39.all kinds of different backgrounds, victims from all different kinds of
:38:39. > :38:44.backgrounds and the abusers too. know from the technology that there
:38:44. > :38:49.is a sense that more material is out there? That's right. Is that a
:38:49. > :38:53.fallacy? No, it is absolutely accurate. Again, what we are
:38:53. > :38:57.finding is, you saw on the film clip you showed, young boys,
:38:57. > :39:03.sexually abusing and exploiting other girls. We are finding boys as
:39:03. > :39:06.young as 14 and 15 as well as much older men, sometimes women but
:39:06. > :39:13.largely males, being fuelled by violent pornography and the use of
:39:13. > :39:16.social networking sites. And after that the high-profile Rochdale case,
:39:17. > :39:20.and the question of whether race is a legitimate issue in this case.
:39:20. > :39:24.Are you concerned that political correctness is hampering whether
:39:24. > :39:29.you can get to the bottom of that? I think it has in the past, there
:39:30. > :39:33.is no good denying it. We have had high-profile cases involving
:39:33. > :39:37.British Pakistani men in particular, taking advantage of white teenage
:39:37. > :39:40.girls. I can take you to other parts of the country where we have
:39:40. > :39:45.white middle-aged men exploiting, grooming young girls and boys as
:39:45. > :39:48.well. It is horses for courses, these are all serious sexual abuse
:39:48. > :39:51.crimes against children. Ghastly crimes, and I want the police and
:39:51. > :39:55.other agencies, to have the right and most appropriate tools, to
:39:55. > :39:58.clamp down on these perpetrators and bring them to justice, wherever
:39:58. > :40:02.and however they are carrying out this practice. If political
:40:02. > :40:06.correctness is getting in the way of looking into this, it has to go.
:40:06. > :40:09.They have slapped each other, spat at each other and called each other
:40:09. > :40:13.names, this month David Haye and Dereck Chisora, both unlicensed
:40:13. > :40:16.boxers, who in Britain, will meet in a fight that is promoted as the
:40:16. > :40:24.boxing clash of the year. Not arguably for the quality of the
:40:25. > :40:27.boxing, but the level of the an no sirity between the two men. What --
:40:27. > :40:31.an mossity between -- animosity between the two men. We will
:40:31. > :40:38.discuss that with our guests in a moment. First w flash photography
:40:38. > :40:43.in the report, it is Peter Marshall. In the eyes of the sports
:40:43. > :40:47.authorities, and of many who loathe boxing, Dereck Chisora shouldn't be
:40:47. > :40:50.allowed near the ring. Mind you, his best-known fight wasn't in the
:40:50. > :40:58.ring, it was at a news conference, after his latest boxing defeat,
:40:58. > :41:06.when he fell out with another failing British boxer, David Haye.
:41:06. > :41:12.And now, empties well aired, and despite the fact that neither has a
:41:12. > :41:16.British boxing license, Haye and Chisora are to fight without gloves
:41:16. > :41:22.before crowds. For purists it is a new low for sport, attracting only
:41:22. > :41:27.the interest of ghouls, but the Chisora-Haye fight promised to make
:41:27. > :41:34.more money than any boxing match this year. Is it another death
:41:34. > :41:41.knell moment for boxing as a legitimate sport. Do you want me to
:41:41. > :41:45.not fight, what do you want me to do hang up my gloves, why look for
:41:45. > :41:49.another job. Many will say a period of penance is appropriate because
:41:49. > :41:53.of behaviour in the past? You know what, I came out doing 12 rounds,
:41:53. > :41:57.and I was already doing a press conference, you know, in less than
:41:57. > :42:02.20 minutes after my adrenaline pumping, everything happening,
:42:02. > :42:07.moving at 100 miles an hour. So certain things were said on that
:42:08. > :42:14.night. You said you were going to shoot him four times? I did, I hold
:42:14. > :42:18.my hand up and I apologise, I have never owned and gun and never will.
:42:18. > :42:22.I never shot anybody and I apologise. Dereck Chisora is
:42:22. > :42:26.personable, but armed or not he has a dreadful record, he has been
:42:26. > :42:30.known to bite and spit, not only at his opponents, he has convictions
:42:30. > :42:37.for violence. Maybe it is because of that, his fight with Haye will
:42:37. > :42:40.attract a big audience on hand and on pay TV. As a fighter you have
:42:40. > :42:46.lost two championship fights on the run, this is a big pay day? They
:42:46. > :42:51.are all big pay days, I never get small pay day, me and my big mouth
:42:51. > :42:56.get big pay days. That is the trick, you use your mouth and get it?
:42:56. > :42:59.Muhammed Ali uses his mouth and one of the greatest athletes now, why
:42:59. > :43:04.not follow in the footsteps of the man I love. A business model?
:43:04. > :43:08.Exactly. Muhammed Ali changed everything.
:43:08. > :43:15.Here he is pumping up the publicity with Joe Bugner. But Ali had
:43:15. > :43:19.something to sell. He really was the greatest.
:43:19. > :43:24.The Haye-Chisora fight is a reflection of the changing nature
:43:24. > :43:27.of professional boxing. Since the hey day of Muhammed Ali, it has
:43:27. > :43:31.become ever further removed from the sporting mainstream. What
:43:31. > :43:35.happened to professional boxing? Money has driven that. TV companies
:43:36. > :43:40.who supply the most money, don't deal with the sport as in, they
:43:40. > :43:45.would, in other sports. TV deals with the Premier League, or FIFA in
:43:45. > :43:47.football, in boxing they deal with the promoter and the boxer.
:43:48. > :43:52.Everyone wants to stage championship fights, so they
:43:52. > :43:56.arrange different championships? You can essentially buy belts to go
:43:56. > :43:59.with your fights. The British Boxing Board of Control who have
:43:59. > :44:04.declared Chisora unfit to fight, are the latest to see their
:44:04. > :44:11.authority undermined. If someone told you you were not
:44:11. > :44:16.fit. They even if psychologically fit? Do I look crazy at all.
:44:16. > :44:22.behave in a crazy way sometimes? you look crazy, since you walked
:44:22. > :44:30.into my gym, do I look crazy? but you can be crazy without
:44:30. > :44:35.looking crazy? Who knows, Ahhhhh! So he is amusing company, but the
:44:35. > :44:38.British Boxing Board of Control aren't in any mood for laughs. I
:44:38. > :44:42.didn't flinch! You didn't flinch, great one.
:44:43. > :44:45.Frank Warren who is Dereck Chisora's manager, and Robert Smith,
:44:45. > :44:48.from the British Boxing Board of Control. They have never debated
:44:49. > :44:52.each other before, but they join us this evening. Thank you General
:44:52. > :44:56.gentlemen for coming in. Frank Warren, you heard it there, it is
:44:56. > :45:00.just a business model, isn't it, it is way of making cash, morality is
:45:00. > :45:06.out the window on this one? First of all, they are professional
:45:06. > :45:10.boxers, boxing for unM as regards to morality, I can think of lots of
:45:10. > :45:18.sportsmen over the years who problems. Eric Cantona, assaulted a
:45:18. > :45:22.fan, yet BBC and other TV companies showed his matches. You can look at,
:45:22. > :45:26.only recently, you are talking about morality of things, Formula
:45:26. > :45:29.One in Bahrain, BBC covered t after all the terrible problems, 50
:45:30. > :45:36.people died in Bahrain. Your point is these guys are completely wrong
:45:36. > :45:40.to try to stop it? You say try to stop it t they had a hearing which
:45:40. > :45:44.the prosecutor, judge and jury at the British Boxing Board of Control,
:45:44. > :45:47.they took away Dereck Chisora's license. It was said at the boxing
:45:47. > :45:50.board of control at the time, because the question was asked, if
:45:50. > :45:54.it goes to another jurisdiction, that's what he can do, and he's
:45:54. > :45:58.allowed to do it. That is what he has done. This is not about Dereck
:45:58. > :46:03.Chisora and David Haye, contrary to what the boxing board say. It is
:46:03. > :46:08.about another governing body coming into this country to sanction
:46:08. > :46:12.fights. Everybody should remember that the British Boxing Board of
:46:12. > :46:15.Control is, in fact, a limited company, it is not a Government
:46:15. > :46:19.department, it is a limited company. For a boxing organisation, you
:46:19. > :46:24.haven't much punch? It is a shame you haven't shown the whole events
:46:24. > :46:27.leading up to Mr Chisora having his license withdrawn. It was a weekend
:46:27. > :46:34.disastrous for the sport. He slapped man, his opponent, on the
:46:34. > :46:38.way in. He spat a stream of water at his opponent's brother previous
:46:38. > :46:43.to a fight. He ended the weekend with brawl at a press conference.
:46:43. > :46:48.These sort of events don't do the sport any good whatsoever, not just
:46:48. > :46:54.in Great Britain, but elsewhere around the world as well. This
:46:54. > :46:58.happened where we are happy to send licensed boxers over.
:46:58. > :47:08.It doesn't work you take away their licenses and Luxembourg steps in?
:47:08. > :47:12.For the majority it works, most of the people we work with are good
:47:12. > :47:16.people. The Sports Minister said the events that took place were
:47:16. > :47:20.disgusting. We have to deal with that. We have a system where the
:47:20. > :47:26.hearing took place, he had his license withdrawn. That means he
:47:26. > :47:30.was ultimately banned from boxing until he reapplied again in our
:47:30. > :47:34.jurisdiction. He had an opportunity to appeal that decision and he
:47:35. > :47:40.withdrew. Do you admit there would be much less interest in this, if
:47:40. > :47:43.there wasn't the loathing and animosity about the fight? There
:47:43. > :47:48.was talk of the fight in Germany getting out of the control. It gave
:47:48. > :47:51.it some publicity. Which you welcome? I don't welcome what
:47:51. > :47:55.happened in Germany, but it did happen, you won't change history,
:47:55. > :47:59.that is what occurred. But, how long is Dereck Chisora not allowed
:47:59. > :48:03.to box. He's not banned from boxing, you are wrong with what you said,
:48:03. > :48:08.he was not banned from boxing, you withdrew his license. He's allowed
:48:08. > :48:10.to box in this country, it is legal. The Sports Minister, you are
:48:10. > :48:14.misleading there, the Sports Minister said he doesn't want to
:48:14. > :48:20.get involved in that situation. You wrote to the Sports Minister, and
:48:20. > :48:24.he said it clear publicly he doesn't want want to get involved.
:48:24. > :48:26.The Sports Minister said the actions of what happened at the
:48:26. > :48:31.weekend was wrong. And since then he doesn't want to be involved in
:48:31. > :48:35.it. He has gone on record saying that. As simple as that. When we
:48:35. > :48:40.talk about license with people, it is within our jurisdiction, when a
:48:40. > :48:43.boxer has his license withdrawn, that is the ultimate sanction to
:48:43. > :48:46.have the license withdrawn, it is ban until he reapplies for the
:48:46. > :48:51.license. Dereck Chisora, as you asked the question at the hearing,
:48:51. > :48:55.could he reapply for his license, the answer was yes. A ban is very
:48:55. > :48:59.simple. Doesn't it make you think, when you are two miles from the
:48:59. > :49:03.Olympic stadium, a month before the Olympics, you have got this on your
:49:03. > :49:07.plate to have to say, this is what boxing is about, this is what our
:49:07. > :49:11.sport is about? These are professional boxers, it is
:49:12. > :49:16.misleading to say he was banned, when you ban someone you said six
:49:16. > :49:19.months or 12 months. That didn't happen, he's not banned, he's free
:49:19. > :49:22.and licensed to box. The fight has been sanctioned by three
:49:22. > :49:27.association, the British boxing forward of control. You have no
:49:27. > :49:33.power over this at all? What has happened is the boxing board of
:49:33. > :49:35.control are totally mishandling it. We talked about this many times,
:49:35. > :49:40.the British boxing board have made their decision. What is happening
:49:40. > :49:44.is people have made a decision to circumvent the board's decision
:49:44. > :49:47.with regard to withdrawing his license. We govern the sport in
:49:47. > :49:50.this country, we have to look after the reputation of boxing in Great
:49:50. > :49:54.Britain. We do not feel what has happened is the right thing to
:49:54. > :50:04.happen. The board of control made a mess of the whole thing. We will
:50:04. > :50:31.
:50:31. > :50:35.take you briefly through the front That's all from Newsnight tonight,
:50:35. > :50:37.Jeremy is here tomorrow with news from their appearance, and a
:50:38. > :50:47.special studio debate about old people's place in society. From all
:50:48. > :50:51.
:50:51. > :50:56.of us here, good night. A damp night outside, a warm and humid one
:50:56. > :50:59.as well. So we start tomorrow morning with a lot of moisture
:50:59. > :51:03.across the country. It is a dull, grey start, some sunny spells
:51:03. > :51:07.across northern Scotland. Brighter across parts of eastern England,
:51:07. > :51:11.sunshine here. The likelihood of heavy showers developing over parts
:51:11. > :51:15.of North West England and the Midlands. East Anglia and the
:51:15. > :51:22.south-east seeing a shower or two, some sunny spells developing, and
:51:22. > :51:27.feeling humid. A fresher feel across Kevin and Cornwall after a
:51:27. > :51:30.fresher start. Western tarts -- Devon and Cornwall after a fresher
:51:30. > :51:33.start. North Wales staying grey with further outbreaks of rain.
:51:33. > :51:40.Northern Ireland starts damp, brighter here too, some sunny