:00:12. > :00:18.More and more of us are living longer and longer, some one has to
:00:18. > :00:25.pay for T I mean I have lived in my house for 30 years. I can't bear
:00:25. > :00:29.the thought of losing it. But, I'm going to have to. Should we expect
:00:29. > :00:34.older people to look after themselves, or is it the duty of
:00:34. > :00:40.younger tax-payers to support more and more pensioners? Between them,
:00:40. > :00:46.these people have lived almost 1100 years. They face the minister, a
:00:46. > :00:51.spring chicken at 56, a chit of a policy wonk, whose taxes support
:00:51. > :00:56.them. And a man who embarked on a new career hosting countdown at the
:00:56. > :01:06.age of 67. We test drive a mobility scooter. It is a bit slow, can I
:01:06. > :01:09.make it go faster. The boss of Barclays faces angry MPs. With
:01:09. > :01:14.respect, for the third time, what month did you discover the low-
:01:14. > :01:20.balling was going on, give me date. This month. As late as this month.
:01:20. > :01:23.And lives to tell the tale. Who can find out precisely who was
:01:23. > :01:33.in on the scam? And the minister's also going to
:01:33. > :01:34.
:01:34. > :01:40.tell us why he finds this formula intoxicating.
:01:41. > :01:43.The days of our years are three score years and ten, the Pamist
:01:43. > :01:47.tells us. Except, they are increasingly more than, that and
:01:47. > :01:50.some how it all has to be paid for. Sooner or later, and it is already
:01:50. > :01:56.much later than they told us it would be, the Government will have
:01:56. > :02:00.to come up with some ideas. Why should old people expected to pay
:02:00. > :02:04.for themselves, why should young people work to care for them. Why
:02:04. > :02:11.should relatives bail out the taxpayer by unpaid caring. What is
:02:11. > :02:19.the point of extreme old age, any way. To get some clues, I have been
:02:19. > :02:21.in Christchurch Dorset. Welcome to the town that turned
:02:21. > :02:27.grey. There are plenty of wore places to
:02:27. > :02:31.see out your days, and out of every three people in Christchurch, one
:02:31. > :02:41.is already over 65. It is the highest proportion in Britain, and
:02:41. > :02:44.
:02:44. > :02:48.it is growing. People with a past are Britain's future. The high
:02:48. > :02:51.street has changed, the present customers don't come for board
:02:51. > :02:56.shorts, but they still like a bit of sparkle. They still like to
:02:56. > :03:02.motor with the roof down. There isn't a roof, and the top speed is
:03:02. > :03:08.eight miles an hour. Indicators, brake lights, suspension, there is
:03:08. > :03:14.even a clock, a temperature gauge. Go-faster-stripes on them or
:03:14. > :03:18.anything like that? No, no-go- faster-stripes! Spoilers. Have you
:03:18. > :03:23.had cases of old people racing each other in them. Do you need a
:03:23. > :03:27.license to drive them? There is no legal requirement for a license.
:03:27. > :03:37.How do you know you are not setting it to a hooligan old person. It is
:03:37. > :03:39.
:03:39. > :03:44.slow, can I make it go faster. Oh! Whoops! Ha ha! I wouldn't trust me
:03:44. > :03:54.on one of these. It is not very interesting as a
:03:54. > :03:59.
:04:00. > :04:03.ride. It would make a difference if Over 85s are the fastest-growing
:04:03. > :04:07.sector of Britain's population. It is reckoned most of us can expect
:04:07. > :04:11.to have to care for an old person at some time in our lives. Looking
:04:11. > :04:14.after people who a generation or two would have been dead k dominate
:04:14. > :04:22.people's lives. At the very point when they might have been expecting
:04:22. > :04:26.to put their feet up. Mary is 60, when she was born, her mother, Rose,
:04:26. > :04:32.did everything for her. Mary grew up and looked after herself, her
:04:32. > :04:36.mother is now 89, and in the grip of dementia, and now Mary does
:04:36. > :04:41.everything for her mother. What would happen to your mother if you
:04:41. > :04:45.weren't there to look after her? She would probably have to go into
:04:45. > :04:50.a home. Do you resent her? You would lead a different life if you
:04:50. > :04:56.weren't caring for your mum? Yes, I do sometimes, there is no doubt
:04:56. > :05:02.about that. Then I feel really guilty, when I look at her at times.
:05:02. > :05:09.She doesn't really want to be like this. Had she to look at herself
:05:09. > :05:13.when she was 60, say, and think, that's what I'm going to become,
:05:13. > :05:18.she would be horrified. You are in that position, you are about 60?
:05:18. > :05:22.Yes, I'm 60. You look at your mother and you can see the future?
:05:22. > :05:26.That is terrifying to me. Unpaid carers save the taxpayer hundreds
:05:27. > :05:36.of millions each year. But not enough. When the proportion of old
:05:36. > :05:43.people gets this high, it becomes unsustainable. In the high cliff
:05:44. > :05:47.area of Christchurch, seven out of ten people are over 60. The Local
:05:47. > :05:51.Government Association is warning that within 20 years tax-payers
:05:51. > :05:55.will have to find another �12 billion a year to look after the
:05:55. > :06:00.elderly. Already councils are struggling. Dorset County Council
:06:00. > :06:05.says it spends 44% of its budget on adult social care, which means cuts
:06:05. > :06:08.elsewhere. It means if we are taking up more
:06:08. > :06:13.and more of the expenditure of the county against a smaller budget,
:06:13. > :06:16.there is less available for other services across the county as well.
:06:17. > :06:21.Either you spend the money on old people or something else. The
:06:21. > :06:25.problem here is worse than in most places, isn't it? Yes, because of
:06:25. > :06:31.our demographic. We have a large proportion of older people wrecks
:06:31. > :06:34.attract people who retire here, a beautiful place to be. They retire
:06:34. > :06:37.very independent, and haven't thought through the costs of their
:06:37. > :06:43.care, as they become less independent in perhaps 20 years
:06:43. > :06:48.from the time they retire. There is an alternative. Dorset
:06:48. > :06:51.County Council only runs one of the care homes in town. There are
:06:51. > :06:58.another 10 residential or nursing homes. They are private enterprise,
:06:58. > :07:03.and they don't come cheap. At lunch they get a choice of food,
:07:03. > :07:10.and a glass of sherry. The average age of the residents is 85, and no-
:07:10. > :07:13.one stays longer than four years. This place, I think, is absolutely
:07:13. > :07:20.wonderful. How long have you been here? I have been here nearly a
:07:20. > :07:24.year. I have been here a few weeks. Do you like it? Yeah, it is very
:07:24. > :07:31.good. I haven't a clue what I pay, the family deal with it. I can tell
:07:31. > :07:37.you it is a lot of money, it is averageing out at �1,000 a week.
:07:37. > :07:42.Sorry? Didn't you know that. didn't know that. What happens
:07:43. > :07:52.really now is that my pension just about balances what I have to pay
:07:52. > :08:00.here. Ken is lucky, death is a certainty for all of us, but not
:08:00. > :08:05.extreme old age. Jill Park was a fitness instructor for 30 years, at
:08:05. > :08:09.70 she was diagnosed with what turned out to be terminal cancer.
:08:09. > :08:13.Who would have thought with my life I would have ended up like this. It
:08:13. > :08:20.is the last thing I would have dreamt of. My house obviously will
:08:20. > :08:27.have to be sold. The proceeds of that house will go to pay my keep
:08:27. > :08:32.here. Which is, again, not what I planned. I have lived in my house
:08:32. > :08:42.for 30 years. I can't bear the thought of losing it.
:08:42. > :08:43.
:08:43. > :08:48.But, I'm going to have to. They used to say that life is what
:08:48. > :08:57.happens while Urbisy making other plans. So too is death. If we
:08:57. > :09:02.cannot or will not provide for ourselves, -- while you are busy
:09:02. > :09:07.making plans, so it death. If we can't or will not provide for
:09:07. > :09:12.ourselves who will while we face our ever lengthening days.
:09:12. > :09:20.When we talk to our guests, and put their concerns to the minister. It
:09:20. > :09:26.is time to look at the statistics, stark, heading our way, all with
:09:26. > :09:32.enormous price tags. Allegra Stratton presents them.
:09:32. > :09:36.They have never had it so good. The 60s generation, who didn't pay
:09:36. > :09:43.to go to university, and who bought their own homes when they were
:09:43. > :09:47.cheap. Now they are paying very low interest rates on those homes, that
:09:47. > :09:50.is if they haven't paid off their mortgages already. Equity, thought
:09:50. > :09:56.to be tied up in their properties, is valued at around a trillion
:09:56. > :10:00.pounds. And then, when they retire, they will be last to retire on
:10:00. > :10:04.final salary pensions. Of this Government's combined tax and
:10:04. > :10:08.benefit changes, pensioners have lost less on average than either
:10:08. > :10:13.working-age families with children, or those without. Mrs Morris can
:10:13. > :10:17.only afford to heat one room, she's confined to a makeshift bed. It was
:10:17. > :10:21.not always like this. Benefits like the Winter Fuel Allowance, were
:10:21. > :10:27.brought in to tackle serious pensioner poverty. I can't afford
:10:27. > :10:33.to have it on all the time. In the 1980s and 1990s, reaching old age
:10:33. > :10:37.had often meant penry, that is not the case now. Frrb figures looking
:10:37. > :10:41.at income distribution, shows pensioner poverty at the lowest
:10:41. > :10:50.level since 1984. But poverty for working-age households without
:10:50. > :10:53.children is similar levels to those in the 1970s. While we are
:10:53. > :10:56.associate somewhere like Carnaby Street with young people,
:10:56. > :11:01.frittering away their salary, research during this recession has
:11:01. > :11:06.found it is the over 65s who have carried on spending, younger
:11:06. > :11:10.households have cut back. If you were born between 1980 and 1990,
:11:10. > :11:14.you don't need me to tell you you are facing a raw deal. Graduate
:11:14. > :11:18.unemployment is running as high as 20%. People wait until 40 years old
:11:18. > :11:22.to get their first house, if you are lucky enough to save for a
:11:22. > :11:27.deposit, the chances are these banks won't give awe mortgage. Why
:11:27. > :11:31.can't this Government do something about it? While Labour's vote is
:11:31. > :11:35.spread across the generation, the Tories peak with older supporters,
:11:35. > :11:39.because they are more likely to vote, their effect for the Tories
:11:39. > :11:45.is what pollsters describe typically as a double whammy. In
:11:45. > :11:47.the last election the over 65s formed 40% of the turnout in 102
:11:47. > :11:51.constituencies. But Ian Duncan Smith believes the Conservatives
:11:51. > :11:56.have to pledge change at the next election, he believes they have to
:11:56. > :11:59.go into 2015 pledge to go scrap universal benefits for all but the
:11:59. > :12:03.poorest pensioners. It might not sound like a vote-winner, but it
:12:03. > :12:13.shouldn't be a vote-loser, senior Conservatives don't think that
:12:13. > :12:17.
:12:17. > :12:21.Labour can go against that. There are shades of grey to this debate,
:12:21. > :12:26.pensions are seeing meagre returns. But sources indicate after the next
:12:26. > :12:31.election they will ask more of this grou. Baby-boomers may never again
:12:31. > :12:37.have it so good. The Government minister, Willets, is here to ask
:12:37. > :12:43.questions from our audience, who range in age from 60-91. Nick Hewer,
:12:43. > :12:46.from The Apprentice, has just finished making a film about old
:12:46. > :12:49.people. And our token young person tonight is Ruth Porter from the
:12:49. > :12:52.Institute of Economic Affairs. Let's start with you Ruth, do you
:12:52. > :12:58.think there are benefits and entitlements that older people
:12:58. > :13:02.should give up? I think there are. We are in extremely difficult
:13:02. > :13:06.situation at the moment. We have got a situation where we have
:13:06. > :13:10.promised our old age provision on taxpayer subsidies, we can't afford
:13:10. > :13:13.that any more. We need to look at moving to situation where people
:13:13. > :13:17.fund their old age more and more through direct payments. It will be
:13:17. > :13:22.a long transition, but one we need to make. We have had successive
:13:22. > :13:25.Governments who have stood up at election time, successive parties,
:13:25. > :13:28.and they have promised reckless spending they couldn't afford. At
:13:28. > :13:33.the next election, it is not going to be credible for people to stand
:13:33. > :13:38.up and say we can still afford to give Winter Fuel Allowance to
:13:38. > :13:44.millionaires. Do you think that you should and can give up some
:13:44. > :13:49.entitlements, can't you? No, we cannot give up any entitlements. As
:13:49. > :13:55.workers, when we were working, we paid into the tax system. We paid
:13:55. > :13:59.into the tax system, we supported our families, we made a
:13:59. > :14:05.contribution to the society, to our families and friends. You think it
:14:05. > :14:10.is an entitlement which has to be honoured, indefinitely? Yes,
:14:10. > :14:15.indefinitely. I do not think that having worked as long as we have,
:14:15. > :14:20.having made a contribution, and we are still making a contribution, we
:14:20. > :14:24.still making a contribution to the country, through taxation, pensions
:14:24. > :14:29.are taxed. Through voluntary work that we do, through our care that
:14:29. > :14:33.we gave to our families, our friends, our spouses, and our
:14:33. > :14:37.spending power. We are putting money into the economy. Do you
:14:37. > :14:43.think there is any entitlements that old people have that they
:14:43. > :14:47.should give up? None at all. Once do you that, you're actually asking
:14:47. > :14:52.people to give up, and turning around the Government saying, there
:14:52. > :14:55.are rich people, or well-off pensioners. As far as I'm concerned
:14:55. > :14:59.no pensioner is well-off, what they have worked for, they have worked
:14:59. > :15:05.for all their life, all their working life. To get something back.
:15:05. > :15:09.And remember, what they put in, they are not asking for hand-outs.
:15:09. > :15:14.Means testing was what this Government and other Governments
:15:14. > :15:19.want to put forward, straight away, if you start taking away from this,
:15:19. > :15:23.remember, 11 million old age pensioners, by the year 2020 it
:15:23. > :15:28.will be 14 million. One in ten votes will go up the creek for any
:15:28. > :15:32.party coming into power. Let's leave aside the blackmail argument!
:15:32. > :15:36.Let's stick with the moral one for now. What do you think about
:15:36. > :15:39.universal benefit, entitlement for every person over the age of 60, or
:15:39. > :15:44.whatever it is, to get free transport, or Winter Fuel Allowance,
:15:44. > :15:47.that sort of thing? Well, the most important contributing benefit, of
:15:47. > :15:51.course, is the basic state pension. Everybody understands how that
:15:51. > :15:55.carries on. We made a clear commitment in our manifesto, on
:15:55. > :16:00.these other special payments, to keep those. We are going to stick
:16:00. > :16:02.by that pledge. More widely, I think older people do make a
:16:02. > :16:05.contribution, the question is getting the balance exactly right.
:16:05. > :16:09.One form of contribution older people make, of course, is many
:16:09. > :16:12.pass on money to children and grandchildren. There has been one
:16:12. > :16:17.calculation that pensioners already provide more cash to grandchildren
:16:17. > :16:19.than the total value of child benefit. So there are all these
:16:19. > :16:23.types of exchanges between the generations that already happen,
:16:23. > :16:28.and a good thing too. Is there anyone here think there are some
:16:28. > :16:35.things they are entitled to that they could give up, you do Sir?
:16:35. > :16:40.much more ambivalent about some of the flat-rate benefits. Frankly,
:16:40. > :16:45.even though I'm basic rate taxpayer, since I took early retirement, I
:16:45. > :16:48.can afford transport cost, I don't need a free bus pass, I could also
:16:48. > :16:54.do without the Winter Fuel Allowance. I would want something
:16:54. > :16:58.in exchange, I would want some incentive that would allow me to do
:16:58. > :17:05.part-time work, and contribute tax in that way. That would be a fairer
:17:05. > :17:10.system than flat-rate benefit. Do you have a Freedom Pass? What is
:17:10. > :17:15.that? The free transport? No. it absurd that someone like, or
:17:15. > :17:20.someone like me, is offered such a thing? I think those that really
:17:20. > :17:30.don't need it can well afford to do without it, should just not take it.
:17:30. > :17:35.Absolutely. Go on? Can I say something. Yes. I think that those
:17:35. > :17:41.benefits should be liable for tax. Now, if you are at the lower end of
:17:41. > :17:46.the spectrum, existing on �107.45 a week, you have enough tax allowance
:17:46. > :17:49.to cover that, you would still get those benefits in full, if you are
:17:49. > :17:53.at the higher end of the tax allowance, it would probably be all
:17:53. > :17:56.swallowed up in tax. So that would be the fairest way. If you are
:17:56. > :18:00.going to look at every pensioner and see whether they are rich or
:18:00. > :18:05.poor, you are going to have to employ an army of civil servants to
:18:06. > :18:10.sort it out. Which is going to cost a lot more any way. That, to me,
:18:10. > :18:13.would be the fairest means, and if it meant I have to pay a bit more,
:18:13. > :18:18.I get an extra pension, I get a police pension. If it means I have
:18:19. > :18:21.to pay a bit more, and my fellow pensioners are not stuck indoors,
:18:21. > :18:26.on tranquillisers, because they haven't got a Freedom Pass, I'm
:18:27. > :18:29.more than happy to pay it. Can you guarantee that everyone who is
:18:29. > :18:34.currently entitled to a Freedom Pass will continue to remain
:18:34. > :18:38.entitled to it? We made a clear set of commitments in our manifesto,
:18:39. > :18:42.and we are going to stick to those. We have also already done things
:18:42. > :18:45.that have tried to ensure fairness between generations. Nobody has yet
:18:45. > :18:48.mentioned the fact that we are speeding up the increase in the
:18:48. > :18:51.pension age. So the age that you have to reach before you start
:18:51. > :18:55.collecting your pension. That has gone up. That is after the next
:18:55. > :18:59.election, isn't it? We are speeding up that process. That, I think
:18:59. > :19:02.people have by and large accepted it. Although it was controversial,
:19:02. > :19:05.I think the Chancellor was absolutely right to say we should
:19:05. > :19:09.have all the same income tax allowance. He has brought up the
:19:09. > :19:14.income tax allowance for people who aren't of pension age. We are
:19:14. > :19:18.trying to get this balance right. But it is tricky, in the process we
:19:18. > :19:22.have got to honour the pledges we have made. We will do that.
:19:22. > :19:26.Not only do people have to wait longer, for their pensions, they
:19:26. > :19:33.have to pay more into it. So there is a double jeopardy there. And
:19:33. > :19:37.also, if I might take you back to your introduction, when you said
:19:37. > :19:41.that should younger people work to pay income tax to keep older people
:19:41. > :19:47.going? We paid income tax when we were at work, what's happened to
:19:47. > :19:52.that money? We took care of the pensioners when we were at work.
:19:52. > :19:56.There were fewer of them, you are all living too long? At what age
:19:56. > :20:00.would you like us to lay down and die. Successive Governments have
:20:00. > :20:04.been mooting this. Do you accept it is a growing cohort of people?
:20:04. > :20:10.may be the case, but we're still paying income tax. We are
:20:10. > :20:14.contributing in so many other ways. Why are we being penalised, why are
:20:14. > :20:18.we being denied things. There is talk about taking away the Freedom
:20:18. > :20:22.Pass, yet on the other hand we are being told we have to contribute to
:20:22. > :20:27.the Big Society. Without the Freedom Pass, we would not be able
:20:27. > :20:31.to get around to all the meetings and the support that we give to
:20:31. > :20:36.other people. Are we expected to pay out of our pockets to do what
:20:36. > :20:40.the Government is asking us to do. There is a lady behind you pretty
:20:40. > :20:43.agitated? Can I say, first of all, with a great deal of regret, that I
:20:43. > :20:47.think the presentation so far has been very unbalanced, and the
:20:47. > :20:51.platform is not balanced. We should have had an expert who would be
:20:51. > :20:56.able to counter the arguments of the first clip we USA that is one
:20:56. > :21:00.thing. But the question is how do other -- we saw, that is one thing.
:21:00. > :21:04.But the question is how do other countries afford it, there are 157
:21:04. > :21:07.countries in the world, this country, the sixth-richest in the
:21:07. > :21:11.world, is fourth from the bottom in terms of state pension provision.
:21:12. > :21:17.If other countries can afford it, so can we. We are still a very rich
:21:17. > :21:21.country, and I'm still paying taxes. The whole thing is really absolute
:21:21. > :21:25.nonsense. It is a question of political will, in the same way as,
:21:25. > :21:29.in 1948 it was a question of political will when the deficit
:21:29. > :21:33.that we hear so much about, after World War II, was bigger than it is
:21:33. > :21:39.now, and yet we managed, from scratch, to produce the welfare
:21:39. > :21:43.state, and the fantastic NHS that has now being taken away from us.
:21:43. > :21:47.What reassurance can you offer a voter like that? In my experience,
:21:47. > :21:54.all voters understand that we have obligations to each generation. It
:21:54. > :21:59.is a matter of getting the balance right. Of course we have a great
:21:59. > :22:02.obligation to pensioners, but we also have an obligation to young
:22:02. > :22:06.people, not loading them with the cost and servicing and financing of
:22:06. > :22:12.the debt we leave behind W if we leave behind thrillions of debt,
:22:12. > :22:15.they will be paying taxes for decades to service the borrowings
:22:15. > :22:18.we have taken on. We have an obligation to the younger
:22:18. > :22:22.generation as well. In my experience older people understand
:22:22. > :22:26.that, we understand older generations paid for us when we
:22:26. > :22:29.were younger and we have an obligation to younger generations
:22:29. > :22:33.coming after us. What about the moral argument, anyone want to
:22:33. > :22:37.engage about it, why younger people, your children and grandchildren,
:22:37. > :22:43.people that have generation, should pay to keep you in the entitlements
:22:43. > :22:47.that you currently have? I believe that, at the moment, older people
:22:47. > :22:52.are being made to work far longer. Because the state pension, that has
:22:52. > :22:54.been pointed out, is so low, people have to carry on working. I don't
:22:54. > :22:58.think at the moment having all these older people working for
:22:58. > :23:03.longer and longer, is really in the interests of the community as a
:23:03. > :23:07.whole. I think, when we have got mass unemployment among our young
:23:07. > :23:10.people, and we are forcing our older people to carry on longer and
:23:10. > :23:13.longer working, a lot of people carry on working because they have
:23:13. > :23:18.to, because you can't live on the state pension. If that is your only
:23:18. > :23:23.income. And now we are being told, no, you can't retire, as I did, at
:23:23. > :23:28.60, and men used to at 65, it is going up, it is going to be 67 and
:23:28. > :23:31.68, we hear 70, more than 70. We have all these young people with no
:23:31. > :23:35.jobs, and we are keeping our old people in jobs, and we are
:23:35. > :23:38.depriving our young people. It just seems to be completely on its head.
:23:38. > :23:43.You have just been doing a programme about this, this question
:23:43. > :23:47.of retirement. Do you see any point in a retirement age? The point is,
:23:47. > :23:54.that a child born today will be 77 before the state pension kicks in.
:23:54. > :23:57.And what we did on that programme, the town that never retired, we
:23:57. > :24:02.took 14 pensioners and put them back to work, we put plasterers
:24:02. > :24:06.back to work at 75 and joiners and plumbers, in the Arctic conditions
:24:06. > :24:10.of a winter in Preston, on an open building site, because that is what
:24:10. > :24:14.is going to have to happen. Because a great slab of society have never
:24:14. > :24:18.earned enough in their working life to put something aside for their
:24:18. > :24:23.old age, and they rely on their pension. If you want to see, or do
:24:23. > :24:27.I want to see my father, as it were, at 75, up ladder, plastering a
:24:27. > :24:33.ceiling. As a son, I would prefer to pay more tax so that he didn't
:24:33. > :24:39.have to do that. And remember, the son, will be old too one day.
:24:39. > :24:43.He will be the begin fishry it was the most extraordinary experiment -
:24:43. > :24:46.- beneficiary, it was the most extraordinary experiment, these
:24:46. > :24:49.older people had such pride in their work, it was extraordinary,
:24:49. > :24:54.but they couldn't physically do it. You are assuming that technology
:24:54. > :24:57.will stay the same in 20 years time, it is not. They will be building
:24:57. > :25:02.houses in quite a different way. There is gentleman behind you?
:25:02. > :25:07.would like to put a word in for the millions of people, of pensionable
:25:07. > :25:11.age, who are still working and want to do so. If you're fit. You want
:25:11. > :25:15.to work? I'm still working full- time. How old are you? If you are
:25:15. > :25:20.fit and healthy, why not carry on working, it has benefits to
:25:20. > :25:26.yourself, and the community, and if you still have an active role in
:25:26. > :25:30.life you are going to live longer, happier, healthier and be less of a
:25:31. > :25:34.burden on the state. So I would say for those people who want to work,
:25:34. > :25:39.beyond the pensionable age, let them work, and let's remove this
:25:39. > :25:43.prejudice against older people. have got rid of the retirement age
:25:43. > :25:47.last year, no longer can anybody be forced to retire, Jews because of
:25:47. > :25:53.their age, and a good -- just because of their age, and a good
:25:53. > :25:57.thing too. Absolutely right. There is a conventional expectation?
:25:57. > :26:02.There is no legal basis for that expectation. One of the things we
:26:02. > :26:07.will have to expect when we get older is more of us will have to
:26:07. > :26:12.work longer. We can't have the same period of working life and a longer
:26:12. > :26:19.and longer time in retirement. Judges can work until they are 70s,
:26:19. > :26:23.is it reasonable for manual labour, digging ditches, it is already
:26:24. > :26:27.sitting here on high salaries with hand made shoes, but others don't.
:26:27. > :26:35.There is less andless work like, that but there is evidence older
:26:35. > :26:39.people carry on working and they should have the right. I want to
:26:39. > :26:43.represent -- ask the representative of one of the generation that might
:26:43. > :26:45.have to work for a lot longer. What does it mean to you with older
:26:45. > :26:48.people going back into the work place? The fundamental issue is
:26:48. > :26:52.people were told the amount of money they were paying into the
:26:52. > :26:57.system was enough to care for them when they retired. And that hasn't
:26:57. > :27:02.been the case. For younger people who are working, and for older
:27:02. > :27:08.people who continue to work, they are, in a sense, facing a double
:27:08. > :27:11.whammy. They are supporting, and topping up, the money for those who
:27:11. > :27:16.are now in retirement, but at the same time, they are now looking to
:27:16. > :27:20.the future and thinking, gosh, in 2050 we will have double the number
:27:21. > :27:24.of people over 65 that we have got today. We need to be looking at
:27:24. > :27:28.saving. A lady raised the question before, what are other countries
:27:28. > :27:32.doing? If you look at some of the things other countries are do
:27:32. > :27:36.places like Australia have moved from state pension system to a
:27:36. > :27:41.compulsory savings system that can give you more flexibility in terms
:27:41. > :27:46.of when people do retire. This very big cost of social care, in other
:27:46. > :27:50.words, homes, effectively, when exactly are you going to tell us
:27:50. > :27:56.what your proposals are. You keep on saying it will be very shortly,
:27:56. > :28:00.and then a bit longer and a bit longer? I can assure you it will be
:28:00. > :28:04.very shortly Next week? I don't know exactly how many weeks, we
:28:04. > :28:08.have made it absolutely clear we will publish a draft bill on this
:28:08. > :28:13.publishing our White Paper. We do want to work with other parties, to
:28:13. > :28:17.try to agree a long-term settlement. Why is it taking so long to work
:28:17. > :28:23.out? Because it is a very tricky issue. We saw with the emotions we
:28:23. > :28:30.saw in the film earlier, we know people feel intensely about staying
:28:30. > :28:32.in their own home wrecks need an affordable system. -- We need an
:28:33. > :28:36.affordable system. I have a question about free travel, it
:28:36. > :28:41.shouldn't be called that. The Government pays local authorities
:28:41. > :28:46.�120 million a year to pay for that travel, pensioners contribute for
:28:46. > :28:52.working for nothing, either looking after their grandchildren, a loved
:28:52. > :29:00.one, �40 billion, not million, �40 billion a year, we save this
:29:00. > :29:04.country. Let's look at the broader question of social care, the lady
:29:04. > :29:09.you saw in the film, very upset that she was having to sell her
:29:09. > :29:15.home, in order to pay for her care. She has very bad cancer, and she
:29:15. > :29:20.needs proper care, she can't live at home. Is there any reason why
:29:20. > :29:26.she shouldn't have to sell her home? I think so. If we get away
:29:26. > :29:30.with the loophole that let's people in this country get money paid into
:29:30. > :29:37.offshore accounts so they don't pay tax, that would cut our deficit
:29:37. > :29:42.straight away. Pauline Turner, you sold your mother's house? Yes I did,
:29:42. > :29:45.my mother has been in a care home for four-and-a-half years. I bought
:29:45. > :29:50.a care package in case everything happened to me I wanted to make
:29:50. > :29:58.sure she was taken care of. So far it has cost �96,000. What I wanted
:29:58. > :30:03.to ask Mr Willets, is the Dilnot Commission going to be included in
:30:03. > :30:08.this White Paper. Because it is so important, these are the only
:30:08. > :30:13.people that have come up. This is the inquiry into how you fund long-
:30:13. > :30:18.term care when you are old? It is much fairer than what we have now
:30:18. > :30:25.my mother, in a way, she has Alzheimer's, so she doesn't know
:30:25. > :30:32.what's happened to her mother. report was an excellent report,
:30:32. > :30:37.Andrew Dilnot. I had input in that too. It is great report. Andrew is
:30:37. > :30:39.a complete expert on this, but it does come with quite a high cost up
:30:40. > :30:45.front, the Government has to look at whether that can be afforded and
:30:45. > :30:50.how we pay for it. We do want to work to find a solution between the
:30:50. > :30:54.other parties. Social care has always been the Cinderella of the
:30:54. > :30:59.NHS. That lady who spoke earlier, none of the councils ring-fence
:30:59. > :31:06.their money for the elderly. None of them. And also, let me point out
:31:06. > :31:15.too, that where my mother lives, her costs this year went up by 5%.
:31:15. > :31:17.What KCC paid for their hom people is 1.5%, self-funders are
:31:17. > :31:22.subsidising councils. If you could ensure people there was a maximum
:31:22. > :31:29.bill they could face, it might give them more confidence to say. We
:31:29. > :31:38.understand that argument. What does a person do who is in my position,
:31:38. > :31:43.I was perfectly fit in 2003, I came home from work, within a few
:31:43. > :31:47.seconds, I just literally, quicker than you can turn a page on a book,
:31:47. > :31:54.or turn off an electric light, collapsed on the floor. I was on
:31:55. > :32:03.the floor for 72 hours. Until I was picked up. I had to literally pull
:32:03. > :32:08.the telephone off the wall. But I can't meet my current accounts.
:32:08. > :32:18.Because I'm simply not getting the support that I feel, with many
:32:18. > :32:18.
:32:18. > :32:23.others, that we need. Do you own your own house? No, I don't. What
:32:23. > :32:26.sort of comfort can you give? don't know the detales of your
:32:26. > :32:30.personal circumstances. Every person in Government understands
:32:30. > :32:34.absolutely we have obligations to people who have suffered personal
:32:34. > :32:38.misfortune of the type you describe. But equally we have obligations of
:32:38. > :32:40.people across the ages. We can't get into a mind set where it is one
:32:40. > :32:46.generation against another generation. The best way to ensure
:32:46. > :32:49.that we carry on standing by our older citizens, to whom we have an
:32:49. > :32:54.obligation, is to ensure that the younger generation as well think
:32:54. > :33:00.they are getting a fair deal, that we have also discharged our duty to
:33:00. > :33:05.them. The Government believes in fairness to beginlation racial --
:33:05. > :33:09.generations. Then we can keep the show on the road. Can we explore
:33:09. > :33:19.that issue, responsibility to coming generations? I think that
:33:19. > :33:25.the emphasis has been so much on that rich and poor that matter.
:33:25. > :33:30.There is a study carried out in Europe, it is called the European
:33:30. > :33:35.Pensions Barometer Report, which I would like a comment on from the
:33:35. > :33:42.reporter, which shows that of the countries across Europe, Britain
:33:42. > :33:51.has a very high ranking for being able to afford, this is pensions,
:33:51. > :33:55.it would also apply to care, that has the lowest pension, and it also
:33:55. > :33:59.has the very high ranking for sustainability. Do you feel a
:33:59. > :34:05.responsibility towards younger generations? We're doing it for the
:34:05. > :34:08.younger generations. You are doing what for them? This is from the
:34:08. > :34:13.National Pensioners' Convention, which has a lot of information that
:34:13. > :34:16.could have clarified a lot in your initial introduction. I'm just
:34:16. > :34:20.saying is the minister not ashamed, that in Europe we have the
:34:20. > :34:28.capability, high-ranking capability, but the failure to even make the
:34:28. > :34:33.pension at a decent rate. You have your hand up? I am right
:34:33. > :34:36.with you on this. The lady who spoke earlier, you seem to be
:34:36. > :34:40.avoiding a lot, there are many, many young people out of work. Some
:34:40. > :34:47.of them have been out of work so long they have never worked. There
:34:47. > :34:51.will be more of them out of work if older people are in work? These are
:34:51. > :34:54.our children and great-grand children and our families, the
:34:54. > :35:00.rights we have we want them. To the Government should be putting money
:35:00. > :35:04.into getting our young people working. And it is a point about
:35:04. > :35:08.these people, these huge companies who owe billions in offshore
:35:08. > :35:11.accounts, you can't just leave it alone, why aren't you, in the
:35:11. > :35:16.Government, recovering that money? Do something about it, because
:35:16. > :35:21.that's what is causing the deficit. It is not young people being lazy
:35:21. > :35:25.causing it, it is not people living too long, which I find obscene that
:35:25. > :35:28.you, it is something to rejoice that people are living longer.
:35:28. > :35:35.course we have to extract a fair amount of tax from banks. There is
:35:35. > :35:41.notes a pot of gold at the end of the garden to solve our sole fiscal
:35:41. > :35:47.problems. There is a huge amount. Give him a chance to speak? We are
:35:47. > :35:51.investing in young people's work, we have a huge number more of
:35:51. > :35:54.apprenticeships. We want to get the balance right, so we can stand
:35:54. > :35:58.beside the obligations to older people and standby opportunities
:35:58. > :36:01.for younger people. We will cut it there. It promised to be something
:36:01. > :36:05.of a spectacular, one of the most unpopular many in Britain facing a
:36:05. > :36:10.mob of politician, eefpl more than willing to cast the first stone.
:36:10. > :36:14.When Bob Diamond, the ousted boss of Barclays, popped up before the
:36:14. > :36:17.Treasury Select Committee, we didn't learn a whole lot more about
:36:17. > :36:21.how his bank rigged interest rates. Instead of asking difficult
:36:21. > :36:25.questions, the MPs did what they are used to doing, and made
:36:25. > :36:30.speeches. Tomorrow parliament will decide whether the scandal should
:36:30. > :36:39.be investigated by another bunch of politicians for a judicial inquiry.
:36:39. > :36:45.American Bob Diamond has probably had better 4th of July, like the
:36:45. > :36:49.4th July 1996, the day he joininged Barclays. There was no -- joined
:36:49. > :36:53.Barclays. There was no celebrations today as he arrived at the British
:36:53. > :36:59.seat of power to defend his history. First thing you need to know about
:36:59. > :37:02.Bob, he's a man in love. I love Barclays. David I love Barclays.
:37:02. > :37:08.love Barclays because of the people. And you know what, Barclays loved
:37:08. > :37:13.him back, paying him more than �120 million since 2005. A sum with
:37:13. > :37:17.which he could have, if he wanted, hired a Barclays-sponsored bike in
:37:17. > :37:23.London for two-and-a-half million years. The Barclays LIBOR scandal
:37:23. > :37:28.fits rather neatly into three parts, the first has to do with the period,
:37:28. > :37:32.2005-2007, when, traders working for Barclays sought to manipulate
:37:32. > :37:37.the firm's LIBOR submissions, in order to make money. Not
:37:37. > :37:41.surprisingly, Mr Diamond told MPs today that he didn't think this was
:37:41. > :37:48.acceptable. I got physically ill, it is reprehensible behaviour, and
:37:48. > :37:52.if you are asking me should those actions be dealt with? Absolutely.
:37:52. > :37:55.While Barclays traders were trying to pump up the LIBOR rate, Bob, you
:37:55. > :38:03.see, knew nothing about it. Despite the fact that the pumpers worked
:38:03. > :38:09.for him. Well, love can sometimes be blind. MPs were, well, let's say,
:38:09. > :38:15.sceptical. You didn't know anything about that, yet the regulator can
:38:15. > :38:20.document a trader, sitting with a submiter, and shouting across the
:38:20. > :38:28.room, "I'm going to, this is the rate we are going to declare, does
:38:28. > :38:32.anybody have a problem with that?" I don't expect you to look at all
:38:32. > :38:36.the e-mail, but did you run such a firm that nobody in the firm would
:38:36. > :38:42.think that's something the boss should know. Because this is
:38:42. > :38:46.crucial, this is the integrity of the bank? Again, George, this was
:38:46. > :38:51.reprehensible behaviour. I know that. I know that Mr Diamond. I
:38:51. > :38:57.know that, but I'm asking. Did nobody, what kind of firm were you
:38:57. > :39:00.running? The second part of the scandal relates to the period 2007-
:39:00. > :39:03.2008, by now the credit crunch is really biting, and banks, including
:39:03. > :39:06.Barclays, are finding it increasingly difficult and
:39:06. > :39:11.expensive to borrow money. In theory, this higher cost of
:39:12. > :39:15.borrowing should be reflected in higher LIBOR submissions, except,
:39:15. > :39:21.managers at Barclays decided to underreport the rate that they were
:39:21. > :39:26.borrowing at, in order to make the firm look stronger.
:39:26. > :39:32.Mr Diamond was asked repeatedly when he came aware this under-Rowe
:39:32. > :39:35.reporting, or low-balling was going on. What month did you discomfort
:39:35. > :39:39.low-balling was going on? This month. As late as this month.
:39:39. > :39:44.and this is rather confusing, Mr Diamond also told MPs that it was
:39:44. > :39:49.common knowledge at the time that this low-balling of LIBOR was
:39:49. > :39:53.widespread among other banks. There were, afterall, prominent reports
:39:53. > :39:57.by US regulators and journalists. And yet, apparently, Mr Diamond
:39:57. > :39:59.hadn't considered investigating whether it was happening at his
:39:59. > :40:03.bank. The final part of this scandal
:40:03. > :40:09.relates to late October 2008, by now, financial institutions all
:40:09. > :40:14.over the world are going Bill belly-up. In Britain, the
:40:14. > :40:17.Government has had to pump billions into HBOS and RBS. And there is a
:40:17. > :40:22.phone conversation between Paul Tucker, deputy Governor of the Bank
:40:22. > :40:27.of England, and Bob Diamond of Barclays. In which, according to Mr
:40:27. > :40:30.Diamond's note of the conversation, Mr Tucker tells hims that his
:40:30. > :40:33.company's LIBOR submissions don't have to be that high, in other
:40:33. > :40:37.words, doesn't have to be truthful about the cost Barclays is having
:40:37. > :40:41.to pay to borrow money. What is it you thought Mr Tucker wanted you to
:40:41. > :40:47.do? He was pointing out the problem. I was pointing out the problem
:40:47. > :40:55.wasn't with Barclays, but with other submissions. Sorry, that's
:40:55. > :41:00.too shorthand to say it. As I said, I didn't take it as a directive, I
:41:00. > :41:06.took it as either a heads had-up that you are high, or an annoyance
:41:06. > :41:09.that you are high. What I said is, I don't have the note in front of
:41:09. > :41:14.me, I said the reality is that we at Barclays are reporting the rates
:41:14. > :41:18.at which we bore ro. It certainly appears, given the number -- borrow.
:41:18. > :41:21.It certainly appears, given the number of institutions who are
:41:21. > :41:25.posting below us, and getting money from the Government, that they
:41:25. > :41:28.weren't potion at these levels. This is graph showing Barclays'
:41:28. > :41:34.LIBOR submissions relative to the other banks. Higher before the
:41:34. > :41:37.telephone call, and then, before you can say "double my bonus", the
:41:37. > :41:42.Ayr comes out of Barclays submissions -- the air comes out of
:41:42. > :41:48.bash clees submissions relative to those banks. As Mr Diamond left the
:41:48. > :41:51.political row continued. In the phone call, apparently, Paul Tucker
:41:51. > :41:56.said Whitehall wanted the figures down. Was that a LIBOR reference to
:41:56. > :41:58.a minister. And Labour said only a judge-led inquiry the scandal
:41:58. > :42:00.should do. The Government says parliament should investigate.
:42:00. > :42:04.Tomorrow the Commons will vote on this.
:42:04. > :42:11.In a moment we will hear from two members of the select committee,
:42:11. > :42:15.the Labour MP, John Mann, and the Conservative, Andrea Leadson. What
:42:15. > :42:19.did we learn today, Paul Mason? much, this man ran a bank that
:42:19. > :42:24.broke the law. He claims he knew nothing about it. Nothing about it
:42:24. > :42:28.all the, until a month ago. Now the chairman of that committee, Andrew
:42:28. > :42:32.Tyrie, said, tonight, he thinks that claim is implausible. He says
:42:32. > :42:39.he has evidence that the FSA were worried about dime at the moment he
:42:39. > :42:48.was made CEO of Barclays. We will - - about the time that he was made
:42:48. > :42:52.CEO of Barclays. We will find out about that later. The it wasn't the
:42:52. > :42:56.usual stuff you get from the select committees, they were precise. The
:42:56. > :43:00.committee, as a structure was not able to pin Diamond down. What is
:43:00. > :43:06.the issue? The issue is, not did Gordon Brown or Ed Balls order
:43:06. > :43:09.LIBOR to be rigged, or Tucker, actually, Diamond, you saw it there
:43:09. > :43:13.rode back from any suggestion that was indeed the case. The question
:43:13. > :43:16.is, why did Mr Diamond's underlings think they had been instructed by
:43:16. > :43:23.the Bank of England, when he said he didn't instruct them. We just
:43:23. > :43:27.cannot get to the bottom of that. Let me ask the two of you, you sat
:43:27. > :43:32.and cross-examined this man, did you feel you got the truth?
:43:32. > :43:38.definitely not. It was astonishing. It really felt as though he had an
:43:38. > :43:43.agenda, he knew exactly how to bat us back. It was very hard to lay a
:43:43. > :43:47.finger on him. Even when we asked incredibly direct questions, like
:43:47. > :43:55.precisely when did he know about the LIBOR rigging, and he said last
:43:55. > :43:58.month ta, made him physically ill. This is man who started life in
:43:58. > :44:04.banking himself. Did you think that? He came into block everything.
:44:04. > :44:07.And of course, we don't have access. He did it pretty confidently too?
:44:07. > :44:12.We don't have access to the documents, we are trying to ask
:44:12. > :44:15.questions, and he's simply saying, he doesn't know. Constantly's paid
:44:15. > :44:18.an awful lot of money to know nothing about the bank he was
:44:19. > :44:21.running. Interestingly, you worked with Barclays, I'm not saying you
:44:21. > :44:26.are anything more than the fact that you have worked at Barclays.
:44:26. > :44:30.Is it plausible that the boss of Barclays claimed to know of this
:44:30. > :44:34.pratice going on in other banks, but not in his own bank? It is not
:44:34. > :44:38.plausible. It is either unbelievable incompetence, or he
:44:38. > :44:43.would have known about it. This rate is the very interesting
:44:43. > :44:45.question of whether this sort of forum is likely to make any
:44:45. > :44:49.progress in a detailed investigation. And the decision
:44:49. > :44:53.about that has to be made, is it tomorrow in the parliamentary vote?
:44:53. > :44:57.Tomorrow afternoon. What's your view about that? I would have an
:44:57. > :45:00.independent judicial inquiry into this. And I would let it take its
:45:00. > :45:05.time. Because the detail is everything. I would let our
:45:05. > :45:11.committee get on with some of the policy issues, for example, whether
:45:11. > :45:17.we should bring forward the Vickers recommendations. Which I think
:45:17. > :45:21.partly emanate from this. These are bigger issues, that we could
:45:21. > :45:25.appropriately deal with, but to have a judicial inquiry into this.
:45:25. > :45:30.Will you hear from Paul Tucker? Certainly next week. It sounds as
:45:30. > :45:35.if you booked him in? We two don't, but the word we get is he will be
:45:35. > :45:39.there next week. What is your view about a parliamentary inquiry, or a
:45:39. > :45:43.judicial inquiry, as John Mann wants? The issue of a judicial
:45:43. > :45:46.inquiry is one of speed. If you get a good judge, they are likely to be
:45:46. > :45:49.busy at the moment. They have to get a team and terms of reference,
:45:49. > :45:53.they will be six weeks behind where the Treasury committee is now. I
:45:53. > :45:56.think there is merit in thinking whether there is the expertise in
:45:56. > :46:02.the Treasury committee, but there is plenty of people to go and sk.
:46:02. > :46:06.If you set up an independent inquiry, you have problems with
:46:06. > :46:12.underlaps and overlaps and who is investigating what. If it expands,
:46:12. > :46:15.does their brief expand or our's. I'm not sure about an independent
:46:15. > :46:17.judicial inquiry. Which way will you vote? For the Government's
:46:17. > :46:22.proposal, for a parliamentary inquiry. Despite your experience
:46:22. > :46:26.today when you didn't get to the truth? The point is Diamond is just
:46:26. > :46:32.extraordinarily well briefed on how to prevar Kate. He just kept
:46:32. > :46:37.talking about the culture. You are talking about this extraordinary --
:46:37. > :46:40.you are just bad at cross-examining. Nobody is pursuing anything? We did,
:46:40. > :46:46.but he's extraordinarily well- trained to going back to his
:46:46. > :46:50.original case, he loves Barclays, it was fabulous culture with a few
:46:50. > :46:53.bad eggs. You have to bear in mind the only documents we have, is the
:46:53. > :46:58.handful of papers Barclays has sent us, and media articles. That is
:46:58. > :47:02.what we are going on. We don't have access and we can't requisition the
:47:03. > :47:06.documents from inside the banks. This is a huge scandal of fiddling
:47:06. > :47:10.and corruption. Do you co-ordinate. Do you get together and say I'll do
:47:10. > :47:14.this and you follow with that? Absolutely, of course we do. It is
:47:14. > :47:18.not working very well? It is, if you go round what happened this
:47:18. > :47:22.afternoon, we went very thoroughly through the three stages, the first
:47:22. > :47:25.bit which was criminally negligent. Why didn't you get to the truth?
:47:25. > :47:29.Because he is incredibly well briefed on how to prevent you
:47:29. > :47:33.landing a punch. He is better briefed than you are? He's briefed
:47:33. > :47:36.on how to not answer questions. What we failed to get from him was
:47:36. > :47:42.a straight answer, what we need to do now is talk to people around him
:47:42. > :47:46.and get answers from them. Are you shaking your head you don't agree
:47:46. > :47:51.with it or have you something to say? I sat through the Barclays
:47:51. > :47:55.conference call with Agius, where the Barclays institution refused to
:47:55. > :47:57.answer questions about this. They said wait until tomorrow, and now a
:47:57. > :48:04.man today, who doesn't work for bark closed circuit and no matter
:48:04. > :48:09.how briefed he is, he doesn't want to sit on a programme here, not on
:48:09. > :48:13.any of interest programmes or rivals. He does not feel
:48:13. > :48:19.comfortable of answering the traditional journalist probing. Let
:48:19. > :48:24.him come and answer. Nostradamus made no predictions for 2012, but
:48:24. > :48:30.our science editor did. She said the discovery of the Higgs boson
:48:30. > :48:33.would be announced this week, and lo, it came to past. As a layman I
:48:33. > :48:42.would saying, I think we have it. You agree?
:48:42. > :48:47.APPLAUSE So this means we are now much
:48:47. > :48:52.closer to understanding how the universe works, if not Barclays'
:48:52. > :48:55.precise role in it! By happy coincidence, David Willets, who we
:48:55. > :48:58.were talking to earlier is also the minister for science, and escaped
:48:58. > :49:04.his own select committee appearance today to hear the announcement.
:49:04. > :49:08.What is so excite beg it? Did I go to the select committee as well, I
:49:08. > :49:12.started the morning by discovering the secret of the universe, where
:49:12. > :49:16.mass comes from, which is what the Higgs boson is about. It goes to
:49:16. > :49:19.the earlier discussion, we are the beneficiaries of scientific
:49:19. > :49:24.discoveries from previous generations. This is a very serious
:49:24. > :49:27.discovery that we have made, that future generations will attribute
:49:27. > :49:31.to us. That is one of the reasons why there is a link between these
:49:31. > :49:34.things and as science minister you can help maintain T we are passing
:49:34. > :49:38.on to new generations new discoveries and understandings of
:49:38. > :49:44.the world, we can be proud of it. What is it, you can't see it, what
:49:44. > :49:50.does it do? What it does. The fact that we have discovered that it
:49:51. > :49:54.exists? You may need Brian Cox on this not me. The main thing is mass
:49:54. > :49:58.is created when you hit a Higgs boson particle, that is where the
:49:58. > :50:03.origins of mass are. They have been able to able to show how previously
:50:03. > :50:12.where they weren't properly able to include mass in the standard they
:50:13. > :50:17.are yum, it looks as if the -- therum, it looks as if there is now
:50:17. > :50:22.empirical confirmation because they have discovered the Higgs boson
:50:22. > :50:27.particles. That changes our lives does it? When they first discovered
:50:27. > :50:34.DNA Watson and Ciark said it wouldn't change our lives --
:50:34. > :50:41.couldn't have said it would have changed our lives. The answer comes
:50:41. > :50:48.back from experts, in future things some of these discoveries we can
:50:48. > :50:51.tax them. You will be able to tax mass? There will be future
:50:51. > :50:54.discoveries drawing on this discovery. That's t Kirsty gets to
:50:54. > :51:04.grips with the army tomorrow, one almost feels sorry for them, good
:51:04. > :51:27.
:51:27. > :51:30.almost feels sorry for them, good Another warm and humid night. Grey
:51:30. > :51:34.start for many on Thursday. But like the last few days, it will
:51:34. > :51:37.brighten up. There will be some sunshine, but again, there will be
:51:37. > :51:41.also some heavy and thundery downpours. Particularly by the
:51:41. > :51:45.afternoon, across northern England. Again, some sunshine, will lift the
:51:45. > :51:49.temperature noose the 20s. Parts of the Midlands, East Anglia and the
:51:49. > :51:54.south-east, also likely to see a scattering of heavy downpours,
:51:54. > :51:58.still very much hit and miss, not everywhere catching them. Large
:51:58. > :52:01.parts of England staying dry. The showers here could be very
:52:02. > :52:06.persistent. Generally dry and bright across Wales. A fresh feel
:52:06. > :52:10.here with temperatures 17-18, the same goes for Northern Ireland.
:52:10. > :52:13.Maybe a few more scattered showers, again some sunshine. North West
:52:13. > :52:17.Scotland has enjoyed largely dry and fine conditions for the last
:52:17. > :52:22.few days. Sunshine here, but the chance of one or two more showers
:52:22. > :52:25.during Thursday, and showers also in southern parts of Scotland. By
:52:25. > :52:29.Friday we are looking at wet weather moving across the country.
:52:29. > :52:32.The likelihood of some very heavy rain lasting for a good part of the
:52:32. > :52:36.day. Some uncertainty about exactly where. But there are warnings in
:52:36. > :52:40.force already for the downpours, there is the real likelihood of