:00:09. > :00:12.This programme contains flash photo-y.
:00:12. > :00:16.Tonight a major retreat instead of a massive defeat. The Government
:00:16. > :00:19.climbs down on Lords reform, but suffers a large Conservative
:00:19. > :00:22.rebellion any way. Raising new questions about the coalition
:00:22. > :00:25.Government. Two years on, is it beginning to look and sound like a
:00:25. > :00:29.bad marriage. These were the scenes in the
:00:29. > :00:38.Commons just now, as the Government watched the largest Tory rebellion
:00:38. > :00:42.since the election. The noes to the left, 124, so the ayes have it, the
:00:42. > :00:45.ayes have it, unlock. The Education Secretary, Michael Gove, will
:00:45. > :00:49.explain what is coming next. And speaking of a bumpy relationship,
:00:49. > :00:52.David Cameron and the he did not want to win the French presidential
:00:52. > :00:58.election, get together to discuss the future of Europe.
:00:58. > :01:03.Today was about being nice. But on many of the key European issues,
:01:03. > :01:07.the formula is still "agree to differ". And the Olympic protest
:01:07. > :01:13.that electrified the world, the Black Power salute from 1968, ahead
:01:13. > :01:22.of our own games, we hear from the man on the podium making a profound
:01:22. > :01:25.political point, Tommie Smith. Good evening, the Duke of Wellington
:01:25. > :01:31.once said that the real test of a great general was to know when to
:01:31. > :01:33.retreat and to dare to do it. By that test, the general ship of
:01:33. > :01:36.David Cameron and the coalition is truly great. For some reason that
:01:36. > :01:41.is not how everybody in parliament sees it tonight. The big Government
:01:41. > :01:43.retreat on the process of Lords reform, kicking it into the autumn,
:01:43. > :01:47.raises questions about David Cameron's leadership and authority,
:01:47. > :01:50.and he experienced what look like the biggest rebellion of his
:01:50. > :01:52.leadership, on the substance of the policy tonight. Questions we will
:01:52. > :01:56.be putting to the Education Secretary, Michael Gove, in a
:01:56. > :01:59.moment. First, our political editor,
:01:59. > :02:03.Allegra Stratton, on what many see at Westminster as a massive
:02:03. > :02:07.Government climb-down. This evening he has had a big
:02:07. > :02:11.defeat, of it not as big as the defeat he would have experienced if
:02:11. > :02:14.they had gone ahead with the technical-sounding motion programme.
:02:15. > :02:17.This is crisis delayed not completely averted. There will be
:02:17. > :02:20.these problems in September and the autumn, as we are getting
:02:20. > :02:24.progressively close to the period when any way we have a general
:02:24. > :02:27.election, it is two-and-a-half years away, but this is the happy
:02:27. > :02:31.spot in the coalition. It gets more difficult from here on in. So it
:02:31. > :02:34.becomes more difficult for them to do difficult pieces of reform.
:02:34. > :02:38.Neither side I have spoken to can see how you achieve the consensus
:02:38. > :02:41.they are talking about. So comfortably this evening. So what
:02:41. > :02:47.we have is kicking the can down theed road, favourite old friend,
:02:47. > :02:51.and lots of Liberal Democrats feeling really, we will not now
:02:51. > :02:55.support the review, we are hear later from people, but we are not
:02:55. > :02:58.sure to what extent they will be expressive about it. The moment
:02:58. > :03:01.they don't go for the review, the Tories will say the one
:03:01. > :03:11.constitutional thing we wanted from this coalition, we will not now get.
:03:11. > :03:13.
:03:13. > :03:19.So it is truck lens, truck lens rules OK. House of Lords reform is
:03:19. > :03:23.parliament's never-ending story. A quick canter from a Georgian speech
:03:23. > :03:27.to last year's Queen's Speech illustrates slow progress. Promised
:03:27. > :03:31.by a Prime Minister in 1968, and then this coalition's commitment.
:03:31. > :03:37.Today the agreement sealed in the rose garden look set to suffer its
:03:37. > :03:40.first dent, a massive Tory uprising against Lords reform. But Lords
:03:40. > :03:45.reform lives, just, so the coalition does too. It has had a
:03:45. > :03:55.lot of time, today it got more. Speaker, we have listened carefully
:03:55. > :03:56.
:03:56. > :04:00.to the debate, so far. Is more prevarication in a wiark of the
:04:00. > :04:04.British establishment, with the sometimes checkered history. They
:04:04. > :04:10.have been trying to reform the House of Lords since peerages were
:04:10. > :04:14.on sale in this office a century ago. Today is another page in a
:04:14. > :04:17.long book. Today the Government faced with being trounced by the
:04:17. > :04:21.own MPs, so face with that they withdrew the motion. I wonder if
:04:21. > :04:24.you have heard of the reports on the 4.00 news, that the programme
:04:24. > :04:28.motion will not be moved this evening, and whether we are
:04:28. > :04:33.expecting a statement? I haven't heard the report, I ofn't
:04:33. > :04:36.listening to the news. That programme motion was a Government
:04:36. > :04:42.attempt to limit time debating Lords reform to ten days, far too
:04:42. > :04:45.little time for many. It recruited what would become the biggest
:04:45. > :04:48.Government defeat yet. Rumours swell at teatime it was being
:04:48. > :04:52.binned. For Lords reform to progress, it needs those that
:04:52. > :04:56.support reform to vote for reform, and to vote for that reform to make
:04:56. > :05:06.progress through this House. It is clear that opposition are not
:05:06. > :05:06.
:05:06. > :05:10.prepared to do that. So we will not... (shouting) Mr Speaker, it is
:05:10. > :05:19.clear, it is clear that the opposition are not prepared to do
:05:19. > :05:24.that, so we will not move the programme motion tonight.
:05:24. > :05:30.Without a programme motion, the historical parallel of clear. This
:05:30. > :05:32.attempt at Lords reform could suffer the same fate as Harold
:05:32. > :05:39.Wilson's. Once you lose control of the timetable, you can't be sure
:05:39. > :05:44.how long the bill will take, and it enables MPs from either side to
:05:44. > :05:47.fillly Buster the bill. Look at what happened to the Wilson
:05:47. > :05:50.Government when they attempted House of Lords reform, they won the
:05:50. > :05:54.second reading vote easily, but didn't control the timetable. The
:05:54. > :05:57.bill went into months of committee. All-night sit after all-night
:05:57. > :06:00.sitting, with the Government trying to use closure of votes, night
:06:00. > :06:04.after night, to get the business through, in the end the Government
:06:05. > :06:10.just gave up. Moments after the Government as
:06:10. > :06:17.announcement, senior Lib Dems were clearly not very happy. There is no
:06:17. > :06:21.guarantee that Labour will change its attitude, ostrich-like attitude.
:06:21. > :06:24.They have sought to make out of this as much damage and difficulty
:06:24. > :06:28.as they possibly can for the coalition. We want sufficient
:06:28. > :06:31.debate, but we actually want to know there is an end to the process.
:06:31. > :06:38.Without a programme motion you can't be sure of that. By contrast,
:06:38. > :06:41.one Tory MP, who led the opposition, was quite happy. I'm pleaseded they
:06:41. > :06:44.have moved away from an almost certain defeat on the programme
:06:44. > :06:48.motion. What I hope they do, this is my message to them, is reflect,
:06:48. > :06:53.and we can get on with reform, right now, without having to have
:06:53. > :06:57.election. If they are persistent in is their view that we must elect a
:06:57. > :07:04.second chamber, we must threaten the legitimacy s or primacy of the
:07:04. > :07:08.Commons, then let's put it to a referendum for the country.
:07:08. > :07:12.Prime Minister is thought to have told Nick Clegg that he needed time
:07:12. > :07:16.to pick off Tory rebels, that is what he has got tonight. For the
:07:16. > :07:19.Tory rebels it is not clear that time will help. They won't sanction
:07:19. > :07:23.any reform to the House of Lords, the Lib Dems think this is their
:07:23. > :07:27.prize. Some would call it a deep freeze, others would say it is an
:07:27. > :07:31.Ice Age burial. To get to the end you want, we end up with 20, 30, 40
:07:31. > :07:33.days about debate about the Lords, when you are talking about economic
:07:33. > :07:40.issues being more important? As I said, the Government needs to
:07:40. > :07:44.reflect. If they want to you avoid a long, drawn-out, painful process,
:07:44. > :07:47.through both houses, it still has to go to the Lords, and it could be
:07:47. > :07:50.there for a year. All the other Government programmes will be
:07:50. > :07:55.delayed. If they want to avoid that they ought to work towards
:07:55. > :07:58.consensus. The toe get that consensus, something has to change
:07:58. > :08:01.-- to get that consensus, is something has to change, the rigid
:08:01. > :08:05.position will have to shift considerably over the summer. What
:08:05. > :08:08.a summer it will be. The Education Secretary, Michael Gove, joins me
:08:08. > :08:12.now from Westminster. This is obviously a big blow to David
:08:12. > :08:15.Cameron's own authority, isn't it, when he's unable to leads scores of
:08:16. > :08:23.Conservatives, to support a policy s which was in the Tory manifesto,
:08:24. > :08:26.in which he himself has promoted. No. It makes no difference to his
:08:26. > :08:32.authority that a third of the parliamentary party are unhappy
:08:33. > :08:37.with this? We have known there is a significant number of people that
:08:37. > :08:40.have principle objections on House of Lords reform, and the Liberal
:08:40. > :08:43.Democrats and to a far greater extent the Labour Party are split
:08:43. > :08:47.on this as well. The reason why we couldn't have a programme motion
:08:47. > :08:53.this evening, which would have allowed a timely and orderly chance
:08:53. > :08:58.to look at the bill, is because the Labour Party said they were in the
:08:58. > :09:05.end supporting the reform, but not the means. So David Cameron can't
:09:05. > :09:08.convince Tory MPs, that's a bizarre argument? You heard earlier, from
:09:08. > :09:12.Liberal Democrats that see it as no part of their job to take David's
:09:12. > :09:15.side in every argument, it was Labour's obstructiveness, what was
:09:15. > :09:18.described as the ostrich-like attitude, which has meant we can't
:09:18. > :09:21.proceed with this. It is not Labour's fault that the
:09:21. > :09:25.Conservative leader cannot persuade his own party, or a significant
:09:25. > :09:29.amount of MPs on this issue, is it? We had an overwhelming majority for
:09:29. > :09:33.House of Lords reform this evening. And we a majority of people in all
:09:33. > :09:36.three parties voting for it. That is in alignment with the clearly
:09:36. > :09:40.expressed will of the British people. The majority of them would
:09:40. > :09:44.like a majority elected chamber. is aed good night for you? It is a
:09:44. > :09:48.good night -- It is aed good night for you? It is a good night for
:09:48. > :09:54.those of us who believe in House of Lords reform, it is the biggest
:09:54. > :09:57.vote on that ever. It is a matter ofed sadness to me, whenever I see
:09:57. > :10:01.Conservative colleagues and friends in a different voting lobby for he
:10:01. > :10:04.moo. There is a task for me and others, who believe in reform to
:10:04. > :10:10.persuade colleagues. I listened carefully to arguments put forward
:10:10. > :10:19.by opponents of reform, many friends of mine, of whom I agree on
:10:19. > :10:23.99% of issues. You make concessions to these people, will you? A
:10:23. > :10:26.referendum, or more time, which the Labour Party wants in this debate,
:10:27. > :10:31.will you have to make concessions? I want to build consensus, and make
:10:31. > :10:35.sure we have as much support as posb. There has to beed goodwill on
:10:35. > :10:39.-- possible. There has to be goodwill on all sides. And on David
:10:39. > :10:43.Cameron's part. He was elected on a manifesto, as we all were, which
:10:43. > :10:46.sought to reform the House of Lords and introduce an elected element.
:10:46. > :10:50.That is what the majority of MPs voted for in the last parliament,
:10:50. > :10:53.and that is the basis he's trying to go forward. There are a number
:10:53. > :10:56.of colleagues who have a number of objections and have questions, I
:10:56. > :11:01.want to answer those questions and objections, I spent part of the
:11:01. > :11:04.weekend talking to a number of colleagues talking about skeplt
:11:04. > :11:07.sceptical issues to do with House of Lords reform. Some of those
:11:07. > :11:11.changed their minds and became convinced this was a measure that
:11:11. > :11:16.needed to be passed. In time we can convince more people. It needs to
:11:16. > :11:22.be a civilised dialogue. The earlier questions about it being a
:11:22. > :11:26.blow to David Cameron, if I may say so, part of the problem with the
:11:27. > :11:31.aprop inherent in -- approach inherent in that question, is it,
:11:31. > :11:34.let me finish, you have had plenty of opportunity to interrupt so far.
:11:34. > :11:39.I think that what we have seen tonight, is an attempt by those of
:11:39. > :11:43.us who believe in reerm to, to try to build that con-- reform, to try
:11:43. > :11:50.to build that consensus. I won't personalise any aspect of this
:11:50. > :11:54.debate. If I could possibly get into the Monday logue here? Nick
:11:54. > :11:59.Clegg -- monolog here? Nick Clegg has shown political courage in
:11:59. > :12:04.making some people in their party to hold their nose to vote in
:12:04. > :12:14.favour of tuition fees and NHS and welfare reform, to keep this
:12:14. > :12:14.
:12:14. > :12:23.coalition going. David Cameron has not been able to do that. That is
:12:23. > :12:26.not true, not many Tories don't -- we voted for a change for a
:12:26. > :12:30.referendum for that system. Conservative colleagues haven't
:12:30. > :12:33.been enthusiastic about certain Lib Dem issues but have supported them.
:12:33. > :12:38.Nick Clegg has shown political courage and David Cameron. Both of
:12:38. > :12:40.them, by forming the coalition and ensuring we have put forward
:12:40. > :12:43.welfare reform, education reform and economic reform, have governed
:12:43. > :12:46.in the national interest. One of the things with the coalition is it
:12:46. > :12:50.is a different type of politics, which recognises that you can't
:12:50. > :12:53.always get your own way. I believe that a more mature approach to
:12:53. > :12:58.politics, both in the Commons, and certainly, as we discuss the House
:12:58. > :13:01.of Lords, is the way forward. We need to move away from the approach
:13:01. > :13:05.that you are taking, which is essentially to try to turn the
:13:05. > :13:09.clock back, and to turn the House of Commons and votes in the House
:13:09. > :13:14.of Commons to exercises in testosterone, rather than exercises
:13:14. > :13:19.in reason. When David Laws, a leading Lib Dem, talks about the
:13:19. > :13:23.possibility for chain reaction, when we had Jeremy Brown, a
:13:23. > :13:28.minister in your Government, that on matters such as boundary changes,
:13:28. > :13:34.the Liberal Democrats might not be so enthusiastic in supporting the
:13:34. > :13:38.Tories, is that hot air and arm wrestling? I don't think it is hot
:13:38. > :13:43.air strikes it is a natural expression of disappointment on
:13:43. > :13:46.their part, and for whom reform of the House of Lords is an important
:13:46. > :13:49.thing. I believe reform of the House of Lords is right, and they
:13:49. > :13:52.are being honest. I think that because we have entered an age of
:13:52. > :13:55.coalition politics, when you have two different parties and two
:13:55. > :14:00.different traditions that are prepared to work together, from
:14:00. > :14:04.time to time people in both parties will express their occasional
:14:04. > :14:07.exasperation of the constraints of coalition. That is only natural,
:14:07. > :14:10.and the mature response on our side, in the Conservative Party, should
:14:10. > :14:13.be to understand that. We need to appreciate that Liberal Democrats
:14:13. > :14:16.have made sacrifices in order to make the coalition work. The
:14:16. > :14:23.Conservatives have also made sacrifices. These are sacrifices in
:14:23. > :14:26.the national interest. But it is still the case that there are
:14:26. > :14:32.people who view Westminster and the decisions taken there, through the
:14:32. > :14:36.prism of who is up or who is down, and whether it is a win for the
:14:36. > :14:39.blue or the yellow. If we always look at our politics in that way,
:14:39. > :14:42.we will never ensure reform in the House of Lords. We have waited 100
:14:42. > :14:46.years to reform it. It was a Conservative politician who put
:14:46. > :14:51.forward the proposition way back in 1910 or 11, that we should have
:14:51. > :14:54.elections on a regional basis, to a reformed second chamber. Other
:14:54. > :15:00.countries succeed in having their executive drawn from the lower
:15:00. > :15:05.chamber, and a second or Upper Chamber, which is majority or fully
:15:05. > :15:09.elect, which has a deliberative role. It is important we move there,
:15:09. > :15:12.but I'm prepared to listen to the legitimate concerns of others, who
:15:12. > :15:15.want us to move with care and caution to the right solution, I
:15:15. > :15:18.believe. Here in the studio, the Shadow
:15:18. > :15:23.Justice Secretary, Sadiq Khan. It's all your fault, apparently,
:15:23. > :15:27.you have wrecked this, and also you are playing cynical politic. You
:15:27. > :15:31.want, apparently, Lords reerm to, but you don't want this process --
:15:31. > :15:34.reform, but you don't want this process? If we wanted today create
:15:34. > :15:38.mischief and be cynical, we would have joined the 85 or 90
:15:38. > :15:41.Conservative rebels and voted down this bill, and not giving it a
:15:41. > :15:44.second reading. If the pundit are right, this bill, failing tonight,
:15:44. > :15:48.would have caused the coalition Government to collapse. And it
:15:48. > :15:51.would have meant a snap general election. Nobody says that?
:15:51. > :15:55.reality is this, because we believe in House of Lords reform. We have
:15:55. > :15:58.helped deliver the biggest vote for a second read in the House of Lords,
:15:58. > :16:01.462. We want to work with the Government. Michael referred to
:16:01. > :16:05.goodwill, one of the things we have been saying to Nick Clegg, and the
:16:05. > :16:09.Government, is, on the issue of substance, we have serious concerns,
:16:09. > :16:12.please talk to us and work with us. On the issue of process we have
:16:12. > :16:17.serious concerns, please work with us and talk to us. They failed to
:16:17. > :16:21.do either. What do you mean by being with them on process, how
:16:21. > :16:24.many days debate do you want? It may cause people's eyes to glaze
:16:24. > :16:28.over all over the country, how many days of debate do you think is
:16:28. > :16:32.necessary for this? As big a fan I am of Newsnight, negotiating with
:16:32. > :16:37.Nick Clegg and David Cameron via Newsnight is not the best way to do
:16:37. > :16:41.so. But maybe you do know and you are not saying? I have said on the
:16:41. > :16:44.floor of the House and in a letter to Nick Clegg, we are happy to talk
:16:44. > :16:49.to you, work with us to get the House of Lords reformed. This bill
:16:49. > :16:52.is not fin beished by any stretch of the imagine -- finished by any
:16:52. > :16:59.stretch of the imagination. Work with us to ensure the bill ised
:16:59. > :17:06.good. And work with all sides of the chamber, genuine and sincere to
:17:06. > :17:12.have their view air. We can't have those who want it, filly Buster it
:17:12. > :17:15.through these stages, and those of us who want it changed don't get a
:17:15. > :17:19.chance to debate the substance of it. This the most important change
:17:19. > :17:25.to the British constitution since 1832, many ordinary voters would
:17:25. > :17:28.quite like to have a say as to how this is going to go? Manifestos are
:17:28. > :17:31.important things to Labour politician, our manifesto was quite
:17:31. > :17:35.clear, we believe in House of Lords reform, we want it to be 100%
:17:35. > :17:39.elected, we believe it should be put to people in a referendum. Less
:17:39. > :17:43.than eight week ago the people of Wakefield, Birmingham, Manchester
:17:43. > :17:46.and around the country, had a vote on whether they should have a mayor
:17:46. > :17:51.for their city and town. There was a referendum last year, I lost it.
:17:51. > :17:57.A lot of people zrpbt turn up on the referendum for having a mayor?
:17:57. > :18:00.On the AV campaign for David Cameron we lost, that we put it to
:18:00. > :18:04.the north-east of London for regional Government, it was lost, I
:18:04. > :18:10.wanted yes, you have to trust the people. You can't have a political
:18:10. > :18:15.class imposing on the public the most major change since 18312.
:18:15. > :18:18.There has to be an amendments or you don't support it? We are grown
:18:18. > :18:23.ups, we believe in constitutionlal change as we talked about House of
:18:23. > :18:25.Lords reform. We could have wrecked the bill tonight, and had the
:18:25. > :18:30.humiliation of Cameron and Nick Clegg losing the vote tonight. We
:18:30. > :18:34.didn't, we support them, we didn't go in with the 85 or 90 MPs and
:18:34. > :18:39.gave them second reading. His's pause now, let's talk to us and do
:18:39. > :18:43.a dial and get this thing through, so MPs -- do a deal and get this
:18:43. > :18:48.thing through. You heard Michael Gove saying he is personally
:18:48. > :18:51.prepared to be reasonable. Do you think this bill will continue. In
:18:51. > :18:55.other words, when people have a chance to reconsider it over the
:18:55. > :19:00.next couple of months into the autumn, do you think there is a
:19:00. > :19:03.chance this bill will go ahead? we were in Government, this would
:19:03. > :19:06.be our Queen's Speech and it wouldn't be our priority. But we
:19:06. > :19:09.want reform. This is vehicle to get it. We will work with them to try
:19:09. > :19:12.to get the bill through the Commons and through the Lords. We are
:19:12. > :19:17.sincere when we say we don't want the bill stuck in the Commons, we
:19:17. > :19:21.want reform for the House of Lords, it is unfinished business for the
:19:21. > :19:25.Labour Party. Angie Bray is with you, who has just been sacked as a
:19:25. > :19:29.ministerial aide for rebelling, and the cabinet minister, David Laws.
:19:29. > :19:32.Do you regret losing your job? I do, the work in the Cabinet
:19:32. > :19:37.Office is interesting and important. I have really enjoyed my time
:19:37. > :19:40.working as the PPS to Francis Maude. So I do regret it to that extent,
:19:40. > :19:44.of course. Do you think this bill is dead? I have a feeling this bill
:19:44. > :19:48.as it is, is a bit dead, actually. I don't feel there is a real
:19:48. > :19:51.appetite for this particular bill. Which not to say, there isn't an
:19:51. > :19:55.appetite for reform. But we can do better than this bill. Michael Gove,
:19:55. > :19:59.I don't know if you heard him as you were coming in, he said he was
:19:59. > :20:02.bullish, he said he's prepared to talk to you, and colleagues, and he
:20:02. > :20:05.respects your views and perhaps you can work together and he can
:20:05. > :20:08.persuade you? It is a important, a little more consultation with
:20:08. > :20:12.colleagues about the direction we want to go would be helpful. Let's
:20:12. > :20:20.be clear, none of us really felt this bill of really worth it T it
:20:20. > :20:24.just did seem to be a mess. -- it just did seem to be a mess. I don't
:20:24. > :20:26.think there was an in the department. Is there something as
:20:26. > :20:31.Sadiq Khan was talking about a referendum to ask the British
:20:31. > :20:34.people, would that help? referendum would help, I think
:20:34. > :20:37.perhaps our coalition partner missed an opportunity right at the
:20:37. > :20:41.start of this process, in absolutely dicking their heels in
:20:41. > :20:45.and refusing to have a referendum. At that might have -- digging their
:20:45. > :20:49.heels in and refusing to have a referendum. At that might have
:20:49. > :20:52.changed things with a referendum in the first place. We need a
:20:52. > :20:55.referendum? We don't need a referendum, this was in the
:20:55. > :21:00.manifesto of the Conservative Party and the Liberal Democrats. We put
:21:00. > :21:03.that before the country at the last general election. So having,
:21:03. > :21:08.spending �100 million on a referendumth dumb on this would be
:21:08. > :21:11.NUT. They could -- referendum on this would be nuts.
:21:12. > :21:15.The Labour Party and Tory rebels could force it to a referendum?
:21:15. > :21:18.we know in the case of the Labour Party what they are doing here is
:21:18. > :21:20.playing politic. They are saying they are in favour of reform of the
:21:20. > :21:24.Lords. And nobody else is playing politics? They are willing the end
:21:24. > :21:28.not the means. The Conservative Party, I respect the fact,
:21:28. > :21:31.genuinely, that there are people like Angie, who are good colleagues,
:21:31. > :21:36.who don't believe in an elected House of Lords. But what I would
:21:36. > :21:40.gently say to them, is not only of that their manifesto commitment. In
:21:40. > :21:43.a coalition, both parties have to signp up to a common programme, and
:21:43. > :21:48.make compromise, and we now, together, need to deliver on that
:21:48. > :21:56.programme. I think it is very important that lay this to rest,
:21:56. > :22:01.our Conservative manifesto did not promise House of Lords reform. It
:22:01. > :22:04.said clearly we would work towards building a consensus for it. Quite
:22:04. > :22:10.clearly that work has barely started. Are you in favour yourself
:22:10. > :22:14.of an elected Lords? I am happy to look at the proposal. I would need
:22:14. > :22:20.to be convinced, that an elected House of Lords, let me finish.
:22:20. > :22:24.Conservative manifesto is very clear on this. Mark Harper, who
:22:24. > :22:29.leads on the bill, said very clearly the other day, the
:22:29. > :22:34.intention both of the Conservative plan fest toe and coalition of not
:22:34. > :22:41.simply -- manifesto, of not just to bring forward a bill but to act on
:22:41. > :22:45.it. Angie Bray, one of your Lib Dem -- another colleague said last
:22:45. > :22:48.night that boundary changes would not find favour? We are not making
:22:48. > :22:52.threats, because we presume the Prime Minister and the Conservative
:22:52. > :22:57.Party will he reflect over the summer and deliver another decision.
:22:57. > :23:01.The point about chain reactions is an important one, when you are in a
:23:01. > :23:03.coalition, and both parties sign up to make compromises. If either of
:23:03. > :23:07.the parties back off those compromise, that they have agreed
:23:07. > :23:12.to. There is a real problem. Because, frankly, if Nick Clegg
:23:12. > :23:17.goes to his colleagues in the Lib Dem parliamentary party, and saying
:23:17. > :23:22.I expect you to vote for all these things I know you didn't like, that
:23:22. > :23:28.we agreed in the coalition agreement. And then my colleagues
:23:28. > :23:31.see the Conservative Party not backing the things we agreed, it is
:23:31. > :23:36.dangerous. I'm a great supporter of the coalition and the agreement,
:23:36. > :23:46.the coalition agreement theself talks about draft proposelia not
:23:46. > :23:51.legislating. Mark -- Proposals. Not legislating. Mark Harper dealt with
:23:51. > :23:54.that. The coalition agreement didn't envision that, nor does it
:23:54. > :23:57.link the House of Lords to the boundary commission. I was in the
:23:57. > :24:02.negotiation, I can he willle it you there was no doubt whatsoever in
:24:02. > :24:06.the negotiations, that what we were itcoming ourselves to was not
:24:06. > :24:13.drafting a bill that we were -- committing ourselves of not
:24:13. > :24:17.drafting a bill. Do you worry that Nick Clegg's legacy as a leadership,
:24:17. > :24:20.historically bringing you into power in 80 years, is to set back
:24:20. > :24:24.constitutional and voting reform for a generation. We have had the
:24:24. > :24:30.second reading of a voten't to. That was success tonight?
:24:30. > :24:35.pleased we won it 460-124. Now we have the opportunity over the
:24:35. > :24:40.summer, the Prime Minister wants opportunities to talk to colleagues
:24:40. > :24:44.and persuade them, I'm delighted to hear on the programme that Sadiq
:24:44. > :24:49.Khan Mr The Labour Party, has said he might -- from the Labour Party,
:24:49. > :24:54.has said he might do what he said he wouldn't do. When he goifs us an
:24:54. > :24:59.indication of what he will -- gives you an indication of what he will
:24:59. > :25:03.compromise on we will be delighted. In November 2010, right, after only
:25:03. > :25:08.four months of discussion, Nick Clegg walked away from the joint
:25:08. > :25:11.working group, and the consensus, not just between you two, it must
:25:11. > :25:15.be between all the parties in the House of Commons. We gave you our
:25:15. > :25:21.vote, we voted for second reading. Everybody in the House knows what
:25:21. > :25:24.you are up to? Which is? Trying, simply, to use this as way of
:25:24. > :25:28.undermining the coalition. I understand it, that is what
:25:28. > :25:32.coalition parties do. Don't judge me and my party by your standards.
:25:32. > :25:38.Don't judge us by your standards, we believe in Lords reform. Prove
:25:38. > :25:43.it to us. We removed 90% of them from the chamber, you abstained.
:25:43. > :25:46.When we got rid of the judges in 1995, you abstained. Revoted for
:25:46. > :25:51.reform tonight. If you would stop being patronising and work with us,
:25:51. > :25:55.talk to us, without the finger pointing. One had modest little
:25:55. > :25:58.question, so far you have said you want more time, a longer programme
:25:58. > :26:03.motion, give me some idea tonight, on it programme, how many days you
:26:03. > :26:07.want. I will, when you negotiated with those guys over five days, how
:26:07. > :26:10.many cameras were present, it was an adult conversation around the
:26:10. > :26:14.table, treat us like adult? We have been asking for thated adult
:26:14. > :26:17.question for a week and no answer. I think we have to start again,
:26:17. > :26:22.this bill is basically dead. There is no desire for it, it is quite
:26:22. > :26:25.right we need to look at what we have to do. It is a massive
:26:25. > :26:28.majority. The message has gone out and clear, the fact that the
:26:28. > :26:33.Government to back off from the programme motion, tells me, they
:26:33. > :26:37.took the temperature in the debate last night, and decided they to
:26:37. > :26:42.move on, and let's park it, we have got the summer recess to consider
:26:42. > :26:46.how we can't to move forward. have 460 MPs voting for it. We have
:26:46. > :26:51.to make sure we start doing what our Conservative manifesto talks
:26:51. > :26:56.about, which was starting to build a consensus. The best thing is to
:26:56. > :27:00.move forward by consensus. final word is this, I understand
:27:00. > :27:03.where the Labour Party are coming from, on this, they are going to be
:27:03. > :27:07.difficult, it is disappointing. However, we are not in coalition
:27:07. > :27:11.with the Labour Party, coalition with the Conservative Party. My
:27:11. > :27:15.colleagues have signed up to a lot of things they don't like doing
:27:15. > :27:18.them, we and Nick Clegg tell them, we negotiated this in the coalition
:27:18. > :27:21.agreement, it is part of being coalition. We have to work with
:27:21. > :27:24.coalition partner to make sure we deliver it common pledge, to get on
:27:24. > :27:29.to all of the other comiings things we have committeded to.
:27:29. > :27:33.David Cameron made no secret that he would rather see President
:27:33. > :27:35.Sarkozy re-elected in France earlier this year, but today as he
:27:35. > :27:39.greeted his successor, Francois Hollande, both men made much of
:27:39. > :27:45.their common ground. Part of that may be that Germany has to do even
:27:45. > :27:49.more to back the euro, which slid to a two-year low today.
:27:49. > :27:55.We have been assessing the apparently "cordial" relationship
:27:55. > :28:00.between the UK and France. It has not got off to aed good
:28:01. > :28:04.start this relationship. Rolling out -- to a good start in this
:28:04. > :28:08.relationship. Rolling out the red carpet seemed a way to plaik amend.
:28:08. > :28:13.There was a meeting with the Queen -- make amend. There was a meeting
:28:13. > :28:17.in Downing Street, and when reminded as his refusal to see
:28:17. > :28:20.Francois Hollande as a candidate, Mr Cameron seemed suitably abashed.
:28:20. > :28:24.TRANSLATION: Well, if I was supposed to have second thoughts in
:28:24. > :28:29.relation to all the people who saw me during the campaign, I would be
:28:29. > :28:36.against the whole world. There was signs of new politicle kal language
:28:36. > :28:42.too?? -- political language too? TRANSLATION: Great Britain has no
:28:42. > :28:46.intent of joining the euro zone, France would like integration and
:28:46. > :28:53.solidarity within the eurozone, at the same time, we fully understand
:28:53. > :28:57.each other's positions. Britain does not wish to slow down or
:28:57. > :29:06.prevent the eurozone countries from acting, and France, within the
:29:06. > :29:13.eurozone, does not want to oblige anyone to join. So, we should see
:29:13. > :29:17.Europe as having different speeds. Each can act at its own speed.
:29:17. > :29:23.While respecting the other countries.
:29:23. > :29:27.This is the way to build a relationship of trust. And from Mr
:29:27. > :29:31.Cameron, a growing assertiveness about renegotiation, and a UK
:29:31. > :29:34.referendum. I don't think Britain is happy with
:29:34. > :29:39.the current relationship with the European Union, I do think we need
:29:39. > :29:42.to make changes. I'm committed over time to making those changes. I
:29:42. > :29:48.said before putting them to the people, to get their full-hearted
:29:48. > :29:52.consent. For month, talk of a two- speed or multi-speed Europe, has
:29:52. > :29:56.been frowned upon in European circle. Even the UK has emphasised
:29:56. > :29:59.strongly the commission commitment to the funking of the EU as a
:29:59. > :30:03.single market or economic space. Now that the differences between
:30:03. > :30:06.the main EU countries, about the way ahead, are so profound and
:30:06. > :30:11.obvious, a different political language is being adopt. One in
:30:11. > :30:15.which the idea of a multi-speed Europe, actually being sold as a
:30:15. > :30:18.political positive, in which everyone can be happy.
:30:18. > :30:21.And while the French leader sped off for that private audience with
:30:21. > :30:26.the Queen, Tory euro-sceptics were launching their plan for the
:30:26. > :30:30.repatriation of a long list of powers from the EU. Given today's
:30:30. > :30:34.language from the two leaders, the backbenchers feel the argument is
:30:34. > :30:37.going in their direction. I think there is a definite move in
:30:37. > :30:39.countries like Germany and France, who recognise that Britain does now
:30:39. > :30:43.want a different relationship with the European Union, and things will
:30:43. > :30:50.have to change, and they will have to find way of accommodating that.
:30:50. > :30:53.I don't personally like the term "two-speed" or "multi-speed", the
:30:53. > :30:59.truth we are no longer going in the same direction, and Britain wants
:30:59. > :31:01.to roll back powers from the EU. We are in a new reality, a multi-teir
:31:01. > :31:04.Europe, and different countries operate anything different areas,
:31:04. > :31:09.it is good for Britain and Europe. On his pre-election visit, MrLed
:31:09. > :31:13.Hollande tried to reassure the City about his plans -- Mr Hollande
:31:13. > :31:18.tried to reassure the City about his plans for interle national
:31:18. > :31:22.transaction. For European leaders, adopting an increasingly a la carte
:31:22. > :31:29.approach, can the European Union remain a single market. It is
:31:29. > :31:34.decribing the reality of the market today, take Schengen, take the
:31:34. > :31:41.eurozone. Since the creation, Europe has been the multi-shaped
:31:41. > :31:47.area, and it seems to me, that Mr Cameron does agree that the
:31:47. > :31:51.eurozone area needs a stronger integration. Which would end up in
:31:51. > :31:55.a multi-speed Europe. But this is probably something that is in the
:31:55. > :31:59.best interests of all the European countries, not only the eurozone
:31:59. > :32:03.countries. The two leaders couldn't help a little gentle sparring over
:32:03. > :32:08.which country offered its citizens lower tax rate. But, with the red
:32:08. > :32:12.carpet rolled up, even today's diplomatic niceties can be put away
:32:12. > :32:20.too. The debate continues here about just how loosely Britain can
:32:20. > :32:25.define the relationship with the EU, while remaining an effective member.
:32:25. > :32:31.This phrase "multi-speed" Europe, that kept uming up in various ways
:32:31. > :32:34.throughout that -- coming up in various ways throughout that. What
:32:34. > :32:38.does it mean in relation to Great Britain and the rest of Europe?
:32:38. > :32:41.UK position is a known quantity. Euro-scepticism is a well
:32:41. > :32:45.established fact in British politics. The UK bilateral
:32:45. > :32:49.relationship with the France, it is not easy, there are nationalist
:32:49. > :32:52.tension, if you like, there are strong common interests in defence,
:32:52. > :32:56.the energy sector, this huge bilateral trade, mutual investment
:32:56. > :33:01.and all that kind of thing, it can be managed. The extraordinary thing
:33:01. > :33:04.going on at the moment, is the complication of the picture in so
:33:04. > :33:12.many different directions and actuaries of power. You have pain,
:33:12. > :33:17.today, -- axies of power. You have Spain today saying it needs help
:33:17. > :33:20.and Italy saying it needs help too. They have been told they can relax
:33:20. > :33:24.certain parts of their austerity plan. Also in the eurozone you have
:33:25. > :33:30.Finland and the Netherlands, saying, no, you can't relax the austerity
:33:30. > :33:33.plan. Deep tensions within the euro, and difference about this financial
:33:33. > :33:37.transfer tax, which France has spoken about. Then you have the
:33:37. > :33:40.outsider, like the UK, it suggests an organisation in which the
:33:40. > :33:45.membership pulling in many different directions sim stainously.
:33:45. > :33:49.The difficulty of achieve -- simultaneously. The difficulty of
:33:49. > :33:53.achieving that is not just Britain winning against the 26 any more, it
:33:53. > :33:57.is a much more complicateded picture. A at a time when the
:33:57. > :34:00.financial markets and -- complicated picture. At the time
:34:00. > :34:04.when the financial markets and other things are complicate. London
:34:04. > :34:10.is just a few weeks away from being the biggest centre of news in the
:34:10. > :34:16.world. The Olympics has not only just been a sporting event, but as
:34:16. > :34:21.Hitler recognised in 1926, a political event. From Palestinian
:34:21. > :34:25.gunmen in Munich, to an anti- abortion protestor in Atlanta. Some
:34:25. > :34:32.have used the Olympics to make a strong political statement through
:34:32. > :34:36.violence. That is why there will be rockets on buildings in East London.
:34:36. > :34:43.Our guest tonight made a peaceful protest which captured the world
:34:43. > :34:47.attention in Mexico. And turned him into a hate figure for people. The
:34:47. > :34:54.Afghan American athlete, Tommie Smith and John Carlos came 1st and
:34:54. > :35:01.3rd in the 200ms in Mexico City. As they stood on the podium to accept
:35:01. > :35:05.the medals, they offered the world the Black Power salute.
:35:05. > :35:08.Smith had knocked two tenths of a second off the previous world
:35:08. > :35:13.record, but two of the finest athletes of their begin raiing,
:35:13. > :35:17.they grew up in a country, where, as John Carlos put it, the United
:35:17. > :35:21.States is not like you think it is for blacks and other people of
:35:21. > :35:26.colour. But taking a stand on the Olympic stand cost them dearly.
:35:26. > :35:29.Boos from the crowd were followed by outrage from the athletics
:35:29. > :35:34.establishment. The International Olympic Committee forced their
:35:34. > :35:39.expulsion from the US Olympic team, and banned them from future
:35:39. > :35:43.competition. Both men received death threats. The third man on the
:35:43. > :35:47.podium, a white Australian, called Peter Norman, showed his support by
:35:47. > :35:53.wearing a human rights badge, and bowing his head in solidarity
:35:53. > :35:58.during The National Anthem. He too became a pariah, and of snubbed by
:35:58. > :36:04.the Australian national team, when the Olympic came to Sydney in 2000.
:36:04. > :36:08.But now the salute, the subject of a new documentary, entitled,
:36:08. > :36:12.fittingly enough, Salute, is recognised by most people as a
:36:12. > :36:15.peaceful act of bravery and defiance, that served as an
:36:15. > :36:22.inspiration for those struggling to secure civil rights for all
:36:22. > :36:26.Americans. It is one of the defining image of an era of protest.
:36:27. > :36:31.The man on the top of that podium, Tommie Smith, is here tonight. Why
:36:31. > :36:41.did you decide that you to do that? Well, at that particular time, it
:36:41. > :36:42.
:36:42. > :36:48.was something that had to be done. I was an individual on a world
:36:48. > :36:53.platform to make this a truthful reality. It was a reality that no-
:36:53. > :36:58.one would deal with, because no-one had had the platform I had to do
:36:58. > :37:04.what was necessary. It took a very, very devastating step towards being
:37:04. > :37:11.vilified because of what had to be done. Did I want to do it? No. But
:37:11. > :37:17.I to do it. There are many cases where people might ask, did you --
:37:17. > :37:21.but I had to do it. People might think there is regrets, the only
:37:21. > :37:26.regret is it had to be done. must have known people would hate
:37:27. > :37:33.you for it? I knew it wasn't an in vogue thing to do, to be on the
:37:33. > :37:40.world stage, implementing a need for human actions, among people
:37:40. > :37:49.that didn't realise the need for love, only for hate. Only to be
:37:49. > :37:53.ruling as an elitist, because they what others didn't have and sharing
:37:53. > :37:56.that profit. It was for a selfless purpose. Did you think of the
:37:56. > :38:00.argument, sport and politics, they don't mix. You are there, people
:38:00. > :38:05.watched you because you are an amazing run, they didn't want to
:38:05. > :38:08.hear your politics, they don't care about that, that is an argument?
:38:08. > :38:13.You can run but you can't hide. There were facts that were real to
:38:13. > :38:18.me. And I was blessed to use my talent to help those who did not
:38:18. > :38:23.have a platform, to voice an opinion. This opinion was a
:38:23. > :38:29.unilateral opinion dealing with human rights. It only opened the
:38:29. > :38:34.minds up of those who were sedintary in their lives, and not
:38:34. > :38:38.Israeling the need for a coalition of understanding. It was very
:38:38. > :38:42.simple. Can you see that right now, there are problems in Syria,
:38:42. > :38:46.Kashmir, in the Palestinians, all kind of people could protest. Some
:38:46. > :38:50.people, of course, have protested violently, and caused real trouble,
:38:50. > :38:53.which, obviously, you didn't do. Where do you draw the line. If
:38:54. > :38:59.everybody protested it would be a mess? The line of drawn for me.
:38:59. > :39:04.Simply because I did not go there to make a literal mess of a
:39:04. > :39:09.situation that was already messy. I went to highlight a need to
:39:09. > :39:14.straighten out messes that a lot of people thought of OK, because they
:39:14. > :39:17.were either above it, or so far below it, they didn't make a
:39:17. > :39:21.difference any way. I was in the mid-. You have life and death. I
:39:21. > :39:25.was living in that space -- middle. You have life and death and I was
:39:25. > :39:28.living in that space, although my life had been threatened on many
:39:28. > :39:31.occasion. I to live in the position of being Tommie Smith, to help
:39:31. > :39:38.those who couldn't help themself. It was a case of me using a
:39:38. > :39:46.platform, which a lot of people who couldn't use it for that purpose.
:39:46. > :39:51.Where is your glove? I don't know. It ofn't done for me to make a
:39:51. > :39:56.profit -- it wasn't done for me to make a profit of later stages.
:39:57. > :40:00.could have sold it for thousands? You can tell where my mind was
:40:00. > :40:06.about the human nature not the financial nature. I could have sold
:40:06. > :40:11.my car, dog, shoe, cat. Of it hard times for you? Very hard times. But
:40:11. > :40:18.my upbringing, I thought, was hard also. My father always told me, we
:40:18. > :40:22.go to work when we can see how to do it. The though thought of seeing
:40:22. > :40:28.how to do it of open for everybody. Those who keep closed eyes in an
:40:28. > :40:32.open situation, where they should be open. You reap what you sow, and
:40:32. > :40:37.what I did in Mexico City, I know that, I believe that I was going to
:40:37. > :40:43.rope a benefit, and I did reap a benefit, the benefit of life and
:40:43. > :40:48.honesty. I'm trying to think of this 20-something athlete, you, in
:40:48. > :40:51.1968, doing that, giving that salute. And 40 years later the
:40:51. > :40:56.first African-American President in your country elected. You could
:40:56. > :41:04.never believe that could happen? couldn't believe of that happening.
:41:04. > :41:11.Only through the issue space of life, that were grant to me. I did
:41:11. > :41:13.what I could to promote a pro- active American situation, like --
:41:13. > :41:17.pro-active American situation that is happening now. Even him being
:41:17. > :41:22.what he is, I think he's one of the best President, he happens to be
:41:22. > :41:27.black. There are those on his side, no matter what he does, it is not
:41:27. > :41:31.good enough. They would shoot themselves to make him look bad.
:41:31. > :41:36.anyone knows where the glove is now? I will split the cost. If they
:41:36. > :41:41.hant hand it in, we will make sure you get -- if they hand it in we
:41:41. > :41:46.will make sure you get it! Let's take a look at what is in
:41:46. > :41:55.store for Newsnight's own coverage of the games by the man in the
:41:55. > :42:05.dodgey tracksuit, Stephen Smith! For coverage as clear as a Seb Coe
:42:05. > :42:10.urine sample, it is Team Newsnight! We have invested millions in sports
:42:10. > :42:16.technologies to deliver gold for Team GB at the Olympic.
:42:16. > :42:23.So is all the money and of for the of value only to our elite athlete,
:42:23. > :42:28.or is it something the rest of us could benefit from too.
:42:28. > :42:33.We get the inside dope of how drugs cheats use the latest science to
:42:33. > :42:37.beat the system, to the frustration of tester and athletes. People who
:42:37. > :42:42.choose to dope are a little bit ahead of the testers, it is always
:42:42. > :42:49.a chasing game. Hi kids, enough of the science
:42:49. > :42:55.already, I will be looking at the cultural aspect of the Olympics.
:42:55. > :42:59.Well-well-welcome to London. last time they came to London, they
:42:59. > :43:04.were known as the "Austerity Games". Talking of austerity, check out
:43:04. > :43:09.these any of they Newsnight tracksuit. I think this was Jimmy
:43:09. > :43:16.Saville's old one. We will also have expert analysis from British
:43:16. > :43:21.olympian past and present. Our coverage is nailed on for gold,
:43:22. > :43:25.that's Newsnight meddling in the Olympic. So basically it's all good.
:43:25. > :43:28.Our political editor, Allegra Stratton, is here, for a final word
:43:28. > :43:31.about the vote on Lords reform. Do you think voters care very much
:43:31. > :43:35.about it? Some newspapers don't have it on the front at all. The
:43:35. > :43:39.story they do have on front is a piece of Government business that,
:43:39. > :43:44.I think, will illustrate the ram kaiing of today's vote. Social care
:43:44. > :43:48.-- recommend ramification of today's vote. Social care will be
:43:48. > :43:53.kicked until the year after, the review. If there is acrimonious
:43:53. > :43:57.days like today, will be very difficult to agree on �3 billion to
:43:57. > :44:02.pay for all our care whener elderly. It is beige moment for the
:44:02. > :44:08.coalition -- When we are elderly. It is a big moment for the
:44:08. > :44:13.coalition. It will become more of a big moment for the coalition. And
:44:13. > :44:18.people, as they pop in to look at what is going on in parliament,
:44:18. > :44:23.will wonder how it is relevant to the economy and the things pressing
:44:23. > :44:26.on their mind. 91 days? It is big, without dropping the timetable
:44:26. > :44:32.motion. This is a fluid and political story. A quick look at
:44:32. > :44:42.the front page. The FT calls for outsiders to take the helm at
:44:42. > :45:05.
:45:05. > :45:11.That's all from nice night tonight, in the middle of the wettest summer
:45:11. > :45:16.weather most of us can remember. We wanted to cheer things up with a
:45:16. > :45:26.new art exhibition from Singapore Airport, called Kinetic Rain,
:45:26. > :45:26.
:45:26. > :46:09.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 43 seconds
:46:09. > :46:12.suggesting the drip around us might Heavy showers affect part of the UK
:46:12. > :46:18.overnight, it is heavy rain over eastern Scotland, lasting through
:46:18. > :46:22.much of the day on Wednesday. Elsewhere you may see sunshine for
:46:22. > :46:25.hef and thundery downpowers getting going. North West England you could
:46:25. > :46:29.avoid most of those and stay dry. Across the north-east of England
:46:29. > :46:33.you have rain and showers. The south-east showers heavy and
:46:33. > :46:37.thundery into the afternoon. With some sunshine inbetween. Those in
:46:37. > :46:44.south-west England, its not a constant washout, you will see
:46:44. > :46:49.glimpses of sunshine inbetween the scattered, hit and miss showers. Ip
:46:49. > :46:53.between the showers in Northern Ireland, again, sunny spells. The
:46:53. > :46:58.sun hard to find in Scotland. A grey, gloomy day, showers to the
:46:58. > :47:04.north, a cool feel to the weather, especially in the east. By the time
:47:04. > :47:09.we are settling down, the Lothians could see 30mms. A Met Office amber
:47:09. > :47:12.warning in place, bringing possible disruption. The rain continuing in
:47:12. > :47:16.Edinburgh, on Thursday much of the north of the UK has a dryer and
:47:16. > :47:19.brighter day. In contrast, for England and Wales, we see coming up
:47:19. > :47:23.from southest with, another wet weather system, and some of this