:00:10. > :00:20.Tonight: Two decades of exam inflation ends - a revolution in
:00:20. > :00:30.
:00:30. > :00:34.England's classroom begins. GCSE results fall for the first time.
:00:34. > :00:38.Teachers cry foul. Somebody made a decision, I guess a political
:00:38. > :00:42.decision to alter the grade boundary. The can exam regulator
:00:42. > :00:48.say the exams are fair, we'll discuss how far the shakeup of
:00:48. > :00:51.education should go. Is the Leveson ceasefire over? The last few
:00:51. > :00:56.minutes, News International says it will publish the nude pictures of
:00:56. > :01:01.Prince Harry tomorrow. We'll have live reaction. The South African
:01:01. > :01:06.struggle for workers,' freedoms goes on, as the country remembers
:01:06. > :01:12.the shootings that killed 44. TRANSLATION: Living here with my
:01:12. > :01:18.husband was better. Now, I don't know how will I cope without my
:01:18. > :01:24.husband. We ask if enough has changed, 18 years after apartheid
:01:24. > :01:34.ended. It is shocking and disgraceful. That is the biggest
:01:34. > :01:36.
:01:36. > :01:40.massacre since then, and we're ashamed to be South Africans.
:01:40. > :01:44.good evening. The Education Secretary, thinks GCSE grade
:01:44. > :01:48.inflation is bad. Exam grades deflate for the first time in two
:01:48. > :01:52.decades. What, the exam question might have read is the connection
:01:52. > :01:55.between the two statements? This afternoon, Michael Gove denied he
:01:55. > :01:59.put political pressure on the exam boards and the head of the
:01:59. > :02:04.independent regulator, Ofqual backed him up. Why then are schools
:02:04. > :02:08.across the country voicing the same message of anguish, the grades are
:02:08. > :02:18.marked down as a result of political manipulation, or was the
:02:18. > :02:26.
:02:26. > :02:33.entire school of 2012 enept or # It's magic #
:02:33. > :02:43.. Since the GCSE came in, in the late 80s, grades had been going
:02:43. > :02:45.
:02:45. > :02:50.But today, the morning the music stopped. Sheffield is one of
:02:50. > :02:56.England's divided cities when it comes to wealth and education.
:02:56. > :03:00.David Bows is this charge of two different schools. Both becoming
:03:00. > :03:05.academies, results improved this year, but there was a sour edge.
:03:05. > :03:09.is depressing, that all of that hard work has gone in, and for some
:03:09. > :03:12.youngsters, that critical grade, a C grade has just not been achieved,
:03:12. > :03:18.not through dint of their work and application, but because somebody
:03:18. > :03:23.made a decision, I guess a political decision, to alter the
:03:23. > :03:27.grade boundary. This is tap ton, the school he led in an of fluent
:03:27. > :03:35.area, it has the best results in the city. This year's is not what
:03:35. > :03:44.they hoped for. English is down. got passness everything, but I got
:03:44. > :03:49.a D English, so toif retake it next year. It is annoying that, Philip
:03:49. > :03:55.has A stars, Bs and C in English literature, and we have predicted
:03:55. > :03:59.him for C in English language and we know he passed with a C on the
:03:59. > :04:03.written component but the control assessment, speaking and listening,
:04:03. > :04:08.he has been graded down, so the overall grade is now a D, which is,
:04:08. > :04:18.annoying, I think, is what we both say. The complaint from tap ton is
:04:18. > :04:18.
:04:18. > :04:28.a common one, after years of grades going up, the regulator, off quell,
:04:28. > :04:30.
:04:30. > :04:33.- Ofqual, said if grades rose, it would have to be compared. They
:04:33. > :04:39.said "we are confident that standards have been maintained and
:04:39. > :04:43.that the grades awarded are right. The performance required to achieve
:04:43. > :04:47.each grade is the same as last year". The Education Secretary,
:04:47. > :04:51.said he played no role. decision whether or not particular
:04:51. > :04:55.marks should be awarded and particular grades should be awarded
:04:55. > :05:00.is a matter for exam boards. I don't interfere, or put pressure on
:05:01. > :05:03.the regulator, I make it clear to the regulator, it is important to
:05:03. > :05:06.maintain standards, and how that's done is a decision for the
:05:06. > :05:13.regulator and exam boards and I like previous secretaries of state,
:05:13. > :05:17.properly, leave it to them. That's not the way it looks to teachers
:05:17. > :05:21.here, they say pupils need more marks for the same grades.
:05:21. > :05:25.submitted a classroom based element of the course, assumeing it would
:05:25. > :05:31.achieve a certain level of grades, so for example, a student who we
:05:31. > :05:34.thought with a C grade candidate, we would put their mark in, agreed
:05:34. > :05:44.a markss, but they've depressed the boundaries, which means the student
:05:44. > :05:49.has now achieved a D overall. Celebrations, at ch school N less
:05:49. > :05:54.advantageed, bright side, with compared to last year, the grades
:05:54. > :06:01.are better. This year's results have come as a shock to many, after
:06:01. > :06:04.years of ever rising GCSE grades. It is not just a setback for the
:06:04. > :06:11.individual students, these results can can have serious itch cases for
:06:11. > :06:16.schools, and their future. After rising for years, the proportion of
:06:16. > :06:21.students getting five good GCSEs, including English and maths is
:06:21. > :06:25.likely to fall. Last year the Government said each school needed
:06:25. > :06:35.35% of the students to achieve this. Now, that's 40% and it is going to
:06:35. > :06:40.rise to 50%, by 2015. Chauser, just missed this year's target. Itch the
:06:40. > :06:45.proportion of passes and top grades, is going to be fairly stat
:06:45. > :06:51.particular, so, what does that mean, for schools like Chauser, do you
:06:51. > :06:55.think, which are trying to reach this floor target? Well, it simply
:06:55. > :07:00.means, if that's what they have decided to do, then we will know
:07:00. > :07:05.that. And we will do our utmost to make sure that every youngster is
:07:05. > :07:11.able to be successful. If this year is the model for the future, only a
:07:11. > :07:15.certain proportion of students will ever pass or get top grades.
:07:15. > :07:20.Familiar to anyone, who sat O- levels, foreign to today's students.
:07:20. > :07:25.Everyone should be able to get an A, if they wanted it. They might put
:07:25. > :07:29.effort in, if they get a C, they may be underachieving. Many will
:07:29. > :07:34.welcome the end of rising GCSE grades, saying values been restored
:07:35. > :07:39.to the key qualification. But some schools and teachers are asking
:07:39. > :07:46.questions about exactly how that has been achieved. Sancha Berg
:07:46. > :07:51.there, earlier I put some of the allegation toss Glenys Stacey Chief
:07:51. > :07:55.Executive of Ofqual. Yes. We've had a solid set of exam
:07:55. > :07:58.results today and students should be proud of their results, very
:07:58. > :08:02.proud indeed. Would you like to commiserate with the students who
:08:02. > :08:05.have been shocked with what they've seen today and fear political
:08:05. > :08:10.manipulation? There are a few things I'd like to say about that.
:08:10. > :08:13.The first thing is I represent Ofqual, we're independent regulator,
:08:13. > :08:18.established by Parliament. Parliament established Ofqual to
:08:18. > :08:23.make sure results wouldn't be politically manipulated and it is
:08:23. > :08:28.our job that standards are right and qualifications are right, and
:08:28. > :08:32.that's what you've seen happening this year and last year, at A-level
:08:32. > :08:37.and GCSE. What I'd say for students, that results have been remained
:08:37. > :08:39.steady. For most qualifications of GCSE results, they've stayed the
:08:39. > :08:44.same because qualifications have been comparable and the student mix
:08:44. > :08:49.has been the same. But we have seen, particular changes in GCSE science
:08:49. > :08:52.and in English. Wait a second, we've seen 24 years,
:08:52. > :08:56.consecretaryively of grade inflation, and now that is
:08:56. > :09:01.reversed? Has nothing happened? I say, there is an independent
:09:01. > :09:07.regulator now, looking closely to make sure results are right, and
:09:07. > :09:13.you're seeing our work Playout. We started this work in 2009, and 2010,
:09:13. > :09:17.and so on. What you're seeing at GCSE is a full set, if you like,
:09:17. > :09:21.the suite of GCSE results coming to fruition. You think these are the
:09:21. > :09:26.royalty grades? Right grades, absolutely. Did Michael Gove
:09:26. > :09:28.express his concern over grade inflation? Michael Gove expressed
:09:28. > :09:35.publicly his exasperation of grade inflation, I never had a
:09:35. > :09:40.conversation about him about it, I never raise it had with him and him
:09:40. > :09:44.with me. I'm sure he and others understand the regulator. Did he
:09:44. > :09:47.was the controversial with the colleagues? I'll say this one more
:09:47. > :09:51.time, Ofqual is an independent regulator, established by
:09:51. > :09:55.Parliament to make sure that standards are right, and what you
:09:55. > :09:58.are seeing is an independent regulator, doing the right job and
:09:58. > :10:05.making sure qualifications are right and grades are right and
:10:05. > :10:09.everyone, I hope will begin to have a confidence in that. Does it not
:10:09. > :10:14.strike you that Michael Gove says grades must go down, and grades do
:10:14. > :10:18.go down, and there's no link at all? I can't speak on behalf of the
:10:18. > :10:24.Education Secretary. But what I can do is speak on paf of Ofqual, what
:10:24. > :10:30.we have done is looked at the pattern of grades, over the last 20
:10:30. > :10:35.years, and we can see as can others, including researchers, it is hard
:10:35. > :10:39.to see adjust fiebl reason, for that continueed pattern. So, we've
:10:39. > :10:43.worked with assessment experts to understand that as well as we can,
:10:43. > :10:47.and develop the best approach to making sure we can ensure the right
:10:47. > :10:50.results, this year, last year and next year, and every year. What do
:10:51. > :10:57.you say to the schools they believe their grades have fallen off a
:10:57. > :11:01.cliff? What we're seeing in grades is that for most subjects, grades
:11:01. > :11:04.remaipd steady, in some suggests grades increased but we know
:11:04. > :11:09.reasons why. We're seeing particular changes at GCSE, science
:11:09. > :11:17.and English, and we know the reasons why, but those changes, are
:11:17. > :11:22.about 2% of grade C for science, and 1.5% of grade C for English.
:11:22. > :11:29.They are not Seismic shifts. some schools English is marked down
:11:29. > :11:33.by 10%. Is that nothing to do with the way it is marked? You are
:11:33. > :11:36.hearing some head teachers that's the case, but there are many
:11:36. > :11:41.schools result have improved and we're seeing evidence of that as
:11:41. > :11:45.well. We're seeing 1.5% shift overall for the reasons I've been
:11:45. > :11:49.complaining. But it will Playout differently, school by school,
:11:49. > :11:54.depending on their mix of students and readiness for the qul at the
:11:54. > :12:00.case and assessment. So it is the schools' fault? It is not as simple
:12:00. > :12:04.as that, as you know. What they are seeing is regulator is making sure
:12:04. > :12:10.that exam boards are consist nant the way they look at these and
:12:10. > :12:13.produce the right result and work with their examiners to set the
:12:13. > :12:18.best grade boundaries they've K on the evidence they can. Next year,
:12:18. > :12:21.will you be expecting more grade deinflation? Our job is to make
:12:21. > :12:25.sure standards are set and standards are maintained. That's
:12:25. > :12:31.what we've done. Last year, and this year, and that's what we'll
:12:31. > :12:35.certainly be doing next year. Talking to me earlier. Which ever
:12:35. > :12:40.way you look at it, and whatever actually happened, today's halting
:12:40. > :12:44.of the penen national grade inflation is welcome news foreign
:12:44. > :12:48.aeed case secretary, who stated he wanted the GCSE system reformed.
:12:48. > :12:51.What's the big plan for education of this Government? And are they
:12:51. > :12:57.with to realise it? Here is David Grossman.
:12:57. > :13:01.How do you explain the drop in the GCSE pass rates? Lovely to see you.
:13:01. > :13:04.Michael Gove refuse toss play the usual role of Education Secretary
:13:04. > :13:11.on results day. To be fair, he said he wouldn't.
:13:11. > :13:15.One of the things you won't get me doing is what previous Labour
:13:15. > :13:21.secretary did, looking at the results and saying what a good boy
:13:21. > :13:27.I am. These are risen, I'm doing the right thing, aren't I wonderful.
:13:27. > :13:32.The achievements of the children on the ground became debased. This
:13:32. > :13:37.chimes what some employers report. They may have the piece of paper,
:13:37. > :13:40.but when they're taken on and try to do tasks which require basic
:13:40. > :13:43.numeracy and literacy skills they just can't do that, and therefore,
:13:43. > :13:47.it is not very good for the employer. It is certainly not good
:13:47. > :13:53.for the young person. Here at the Department for Education, Michael
:13:53. > :13:57.Gove is attempting something of a revolution. Trying to smash what he
:13:57. > :14:02.calls "the cozy cartel made up of teachers, exam boards, education
:14:02. > :14:07.officials and yes, even in the past, ministers". Who together have all
:14:07. > :14:11.conspired to pretend that standards are rising faster than they
:14:11. > :14:15.actually are. We must now "be prepared for results to fall" he
:14:15. > :14:19.said. And fall they will, as changes to the way school
:14:19. > :14:24.achievement is measureed begin to kick in. For example Labour
:14:24. > :14:29.compared secondary schools on the basis of how many pupils passed
:14:29. > :14:32.five GCSEs A start to C grade or equivalent. It was those words or
:14:32. > :14:41.equivalent that critics say debauched the measure, more and
:14:41. > :14:45.more qul fae cases, such as horse care or nail technology or fish
:14:45. > :14:49.husbandry were equivalent to multiple GCSE, despite the fact
:14:49. > :14:53.employers saw them nothing of the kind. To many schools they were an
:14:53. > :14:57.easy route up the league tables. Michael Gove has slashed the number
:14:57. > :15:03.of the so-called, equivalent courses, from well over 3,000 to a
:15:03. > :15:07.few more than 100. In their place, put a far tougher measure of school
:15:07. > :15:15.attainment, one that Mr Gove says will reward schools that encourage
:15:15. > :15:20.students to take the subjects that both employers and universitys,
:15:20. > :15:25.value. It is called the English baccalaureate, it is a measure of
:15:25. > :15:29.how many students get GCSE grade C or better, in the academic core
:15:29. > :15:39.subjects. They need English, mathematics, history or George fee,
:15:39. > :15:43.
:15:43. > :15:48.Another big change is in schools schools' inspection. Here is Sir
:15:48. > :15:54.Michael Wiltshire. He changed the regime. No longer with the third of
:15:54. > :15:58.four grades be called "satisfactory". Instayed it will
:15:58. > :16:03.said "requires improvement. Sir Michael ditched the 21 inspection
:16:03. > :16:06.criteria, that included such categories, whether a schools
:16:06. > :16:10.provision met local employment needs or contributed to community
:16:10. > :16:15.cohesion, and instead, schools will now be measureed on just four
:16:15. > :16:21.categories, achievement, teaching, leader, and behaviour. Michael Gove
:16:21. > :16:25.has taken steps to end what he calls "cull fewer of competitive
:16:25. > :16:30.dumbing down". The schools want to get as many pupils through the
:16:30. > :16:35.exams and hunt out the easiest exam boards. The exam boards need for
:16:35. > :16:41.their profits, to attract as many schools to their exams as possible
:16:41. > :16:47.and so, offer easier and easier exams. It is he says, a race for
:16:47. > :16:51.the bottom. So much so he is seriously considering scrapping
:16:51. > :16:56.GCSEs altogether and their replacement, the Mayor of London
:16:56. > :17:01.says, we should call them Gove levels. Joining me to discuss this
:17:01. > :17:07.S Lisa Freedman who runs a schools advisory service, and whose son got
:17:08. > :17:15.the results today. Joan McVittie, President of Association of School
:17:15. > :17:19.and College Leaders, wood side school, described by Gove as one of
:17:19. > :17:23.his favourites, Tony Ryan and Rachel Wolf former adviser to
:17:23. > :17:27.Michael Gove. Very nice of you all to come in.
:17:27. > :17:30.Thanks for joining us. Joan, does your school feel like one of
:17:30. > :17:38.Michael Gove's favourites after what you've seen today. It didn't
:17:38. > :17:42.feel like it, for some of my students today, particularly on the
:17:42. > :17:47.C/ D boundary. Some students anticipated they would pick up a C,
:17:47. > :17:51.and didn't, ended up with a D. they wrong to anticipate the C? Had
:17:51. > :17:57.they had their expectations, unfairly raised? Not at all. The
:17:57. > :18:01.students could take the exam in January. And he could actually pull
:18:01. > :18:07.down their GCSE at that point. If they pulled it down at that point,
:18:07. > :18:11.they had a C grade. They took the same exam in January, and could
:18:12. > :18:17.leave pulling the grade until June, which some students did, and
:18:17. > :18:22.pulling down on the same figures, actually then achieved a lower
:18:22. > :18:27.grade. Same students, same exam, same time. Was your experience to
:18:27. > :18:32.that similar? Very similar. We dropped in English, by 11% on
:18:32. > :18:38.preDicks. And my English department, are one of the best I ever worked
:18:38. > :18:43.with. I trust their predictions. This year was not abnormal in terms
:18:43. > :18:46.of the quality you're teaching. we work to a system and don't
:18:47. > :18:51.arrange the system or organise it, we get the system, we work to it,
:18:51. > :18:55.and get the best results we can for the students. I have about 25
:18:55. > :19:00.students who expected to get a C grade today who didn't. Do you
:19:00. > :19:07.think your pupils this year were used as political pawns, or ended
:19:07. > :19:14.up as? It is hard to see why students across the country, and I
:19:14. > :19:19.think, probably, you're looking at 600 schools, maybe more, I had a
:19:19. > :19:23.controversial, pickaxeel is an improvement group with 25 schools,
:19:23. > :19:27.we know there's over 100 schools affected by this, this is 2,000
:19:27. > :19:31.students who expected C grades and were probably right to expect C
:19:31. > :19:36.grades who haven't got them now. This will affect their future. I
:19:36. > :19:42.have no problem with changing the system, but give us time to work
:19:42. > :19:47.with it, don't spring it on us. are an advocate of what Michael
:19:47. > :19:52.Gove is thinking about. What do you make of what you're hearing?
:19:52. > :19:56.don't know what happened this year, but the current examination system
:19:56. > :20:01.isn't working. We have to recognise one of the reasons we have an exam
:20:01. > :20:06.system is to distinguish between pupils. If you have a system where
:20:06. > :20:09.every year, higher and higher per cent at that stage of pupils are
:20:09. > :20:14.getting higher grades, and employers are distinguished between
:20:14. > :20:19.them, that's difficult. This is becoming unbelieveably tough labour
:20:19. > :20:23.market and incredibly competitive one. We're competing with people
:20:23. > :20:27.overseas, and whether or not we're giving the grades, they are coming
:20:27. > :20:30.out and saying they're not working they're not qualified, we have to
:20:30. > :20:35.change something. You don't know what happened this year? Tony and
:20:35. > :20:40.Joan are not disagreeing, with what your bigger point is. You don't
:20:40. > :20:44.know what happened this year? of us know what happened this year.
:20:44. > :20:48.Obviously we've heard from Ofqual, saying they're independent. I don't
:20:48. > :20:57.know, I don't know I don't work for the Government. In the long-term we
:20:57. > :21:05.have to change. We're talking about 11% drops, at Tony's school and
:21:05. > :21:09.we're talking about C/ D boundaries, which is confusing, do you not
:21:09. > :21:15.think none is deliberate? I don't know, I have not been involved in
:21:15. > :21:20.the system and it is wrong for me to comment. We recognise in the
:21:20. > :21:26.lormer term these things need to be fixed. I don't think there should
:21:26. > :21:31.be GCSE, I'm Canadian, my son spent all summer with his Canadian
:21:31. > :21:36.cousins of course were not sitting exams last year, wasting their time.
:21:36. > :21:41.Our school leaving age will rise, next year, and in two years' time,
:21:41. > :21:45.everybody will leave school or full time education, at the age of 18.
:21:45. > :21:49.Why we have four years of public exams, wasting public money,
:21:49. > :21:54.causing stress to children, to teachers, to schools, disruption,
:21:54. > :21:59.it is a completely lunatic system. I'm not going to embarrass you, but
:21:59. > :22:03.your son got Stella grades, is that a waste of time? From his point of
:22:03. > :22:08.view, I don't think they produce, first of all, he could have been,
:22:08. > :22:14.as he said to me, I spent the whole of my summer terms doing exams.
:22:14. > :22:19.would scrap the GCSE for what? don't see why you need an exam. The
:22:19. > :22:24.Canadianss, who perform better, do not have exams, in year 11. Why
:22:24. > :22:29.would you have exams in year 11. Would you be radical? I can give
:22:29. > :22:33.awe quick answer, this country there, are a huge number of schools,
:22:33. > :22:39.that run from 11-16, unless you have a measure at 16, as they
:22:39. > :22:47.believe those schools, then, really, children could go through, without
:22:47. > :22:53.making progress. Do you not believe teacher assessment is OK. Do you
:22:53. > :22:57.not believe your own teachers can make a legitimate and valid,
:22:57. > :23:01.external assessment, without the Government intervening. Absolutely,
:23:02. > :23:05.there is a portion of GCSE which they do their coursework, et cetera.
:23:05. > :23:10.But they need an external benchmark, otherwise they would not be picked
:23:10. > :23:14.up by employers. Is this a move away from the GCSE,
:23:14. > :23:19.towards an O-level or something of the nature. Is that where it is
:23:19. > :23:26.going? One of the interesting things we've seen with the Free
:23:26. > :23:29.Schools, a significant proportion are not doing GCSE. They're looking
:23:29. > :23:33.at partly because employers and parents are saying, they're
:23:33. > :23:39.increasingly, placing more value on alternative qualifications, because
:23:39. > :23:43.it is tougher and more rigorous, rather than putting kids that
:23:43. > :23:49.independent schools and people choose not doing, we have to make
:23:49. > :23:52.sure it is good for all communities. Essentially, you have to start
:23:52. > :23:57.differentiating a tough labour market for the people who are
:23:57. > :24:01.extremely capable and those cruiseing? I don't think any head
:24:01. > :24:07.teacher would argue with that. You can't have 4 years of grade
:24:07. > :24:11.inflation and keep going. There has to come a time, you cap it, and we
:24:11. > :24:15.want the creme de la creme to the top and get the A grades. This year
:24:15. > :24:20.a mistake has been made. If this leads to more schools put in a
:24:20. > :24:25.position, where they might be deemed as failing, that is turned
:24:25. > :24:29.into academy stayed tus or special measures concerns, is that such a
:24:29. > :24:33.bad sning Is it a bad thing that schools are put in that category,
:24:33. > :24:37.every school is seeking to improve. I don't think any school is not
:24:37. > :24:42.seeking to improve. My concern today is a mistake has been made
:24:42. > :24:45.there. Are 2,000, plus students across the country, and that
:24:45. > :24:50.mistake needs to be addressed. Moving forward is a different
:24:50. > :24:55.debate. It is these students I'm concerned about. It this year took
:24:55. > :25:00.a hit for wider, more important reform S that worth it? This is the
:25:00. > :25:05.start of a real, look at education, now we need to take a look at those
:25:05. > :25:11.schools that are close to failing or failing, and sort them out?
:25:11. > :25:15.agree, with proposals on rigour, no issues with that, and if we change
:25:15. > :25:19.the system, fine. But we need opportunity to work towards that,
:25:19. > :25:24.and ensure that children, are on a level playing field. The big issue,
:25:24. > :25:29.is if the outcome of this is we have more failing schools, I can
:25:29. > :25:33.tell you, there will be no head teachers or teachers who will want
:25:33. > :25:41.to be recruited in the schools. Any schools siting to the close 40%
:25:41. > :25:46.mark, you won't be able to recaut a head teacher. What about the sense,
:25:46. > :25:51.Michael Gove has a cozy flawed system, when you have uens,
:25:51. > :25:56.teachers, politicians all seeing grades rise, every year, search
:25:56. > :26:00.happy, nobody changes the system? do think the reason they've risen
:26:00. > :26:05.is because we have far better teachers, better qualifications, in
:26:06. > :26:08.terms of the training for the techchaers and children who are
:26:08. > :26:13.more motivated. We have to recognise that, that's what we've
:26:13. > :26:16.seen the changes over the years. Thank you all very much. Now the
:26:16. > :26:21.past few minutes, News International said it will publish
:26:21. > :26:25.the naked pictures of Prince Harry, in the Vegas hotel room, tomorrow.
:26:25. > :26:30.Most people will have checked them out on the internet by now, so it
:26:30. > :26:36.is deliberate message of come kind. But what, two fingers up to the
:26:36. > :26:39.Leveson Inquiry, or palace who tried to ban them, or boost
:26:39. > :26:43.circulation figures. The managing editor of the News International
:26:43. > :26:47.gave his reason for publishing the reasons? For us it is about the
:26:47. > :26:52.freedom of the press. This is about the ludicrous situation, where a
:26:52. > :26:57.picture can be seen by hundreds of millions of people around the world
:26:57. > :27:03.on the internet but can't be seen in the nation's favourite paper,
:27:03. > :27:09.read by 8 million people every day. That was the managing editor of the
:27:10. > :27:15.News of the World speaking earlier. We have Kelvin MacKenzie.
:27:15. > :27:20.And, we've Chris Black does Hurst from the independent. Kelvin,
:27:20. > :27:23.presumably, you would have done the same thing, would you? Funnily,
:27:23. > :27:28.enough, I would have done it yesterday not today. Why do you
:27:28. > :27:33.think he waited? I don't know, I should imagine, if-in- the end of
:27:33. > :27:38.the day, the picture like that, can't have been published without
:27:38. > :27:44.Rupert Murdoch getting involved. The issues are too large and
:27:44. > :27:49.controversial, and I salute Rupert for not being coward by effectively
:27:49. > :27:53.the establishment on this issue. Labour MP said, the Sun's made a
:27:53. > :27:58.grave mistake printing the pictures, wanted to know if they paid the
:27:58. > :28:03.pictures and questioned the public interest case. Do you think they
:28:03. > :28:06.paid the pictures? Well, I doubt whether they paid for the pictures
:28:06. > :28:13.myself, because all around the world, the pictures have been
:28:13. > :28:17.published. And they were just taken off the website. Fortunately,
:28:17. > :28:21.America is known as the land of the free, which is the opposite
:28:21. > :28:26.position of the UK uction where you're starting to get prime
:28:26. > :28:31.ministers, like Cameron, wheeling out judges like Leveson and
:28:31. > :28:37.Parliament, who want to gang up exclusively on newspapers, in the
:28:37. > :28:41.UK. Whereas readers in every other part of the world, and on every
:28:41. > :28:46.website in the world, including major news organisations like CNN
:28:46. > :28:51.have been published these pictures for the last 36 hours. It really is
:28:51. > :28:56.shocking. I'm unsure, why the establishment hate newspapers so
:28:56. > :29:00.much. But what I'd like to see is editors get off their knees, and
:29:00. > :29:04.start pushing back against the curtailments in what will
:29:04. > :29:10.eventually, I promise you, lead to the closure of newspapers. If
:29:11. > :29:15.Prince Harry with no clothes on N a Las Vagas hotel room, surrounded by
:29:15. > :29:19.one naked woman anyway and a load of other people, he met in a
:29:19. > :29:24.drinking striping game, it is not a story, then it is hard to know what
:29:24. > :29:29.is. And people should stop worrying about privacy and start worrying
:29:29. > :29:36.about what free speech will mean to the country, if the Leveson, and
:29:36. > :29:41.Camerons, have their way. You are on your knees,? I am on my knees,
:29:41. > :29:44.we've taken the decision from the very off we're not going to publish
:29:44. > :29:48.these pictures. They were taken in a private place, private party. We
:29:48. > :29:51.thought there was an issue of privacy, and that's where we are.
:29:51. > :29:56.guess you could say the Independent would always have taken that
:29:56. > :30:00.decision, and the Sun might always have taken the others. Kelvin is
:30:00. > :30:05.right to the respect if this isn't a tabloid newspaper story, then
:30:05. > :30:08.what is? He's right, yes, we are at the opposite ends of the spectrum,
:30:08. > :30:13.there's no question about that. What I say, is look, here is a
:30:13. > :30:17.young man, he's done nothing wrong, nothing illegal that we know of. He
:30:18. > :30:23.wasn't wearing a Nazi uniform, and not that shocking pictures,
:30:23. > :30:28.actually. He's with friends having a party, it's a private thing. He
:30:28. > :30:32.didn't think it was going to be photographed. He was doing what a
:30:32. > :30:36.lot of Sun readers do on stag parties and don't expect to be on
:30:36. > :30:40.the front page of the morning's papers. I haven't seen the
:30:40. > :30:46.editorial in the paper, but do you think there will be a moral, a
:30:46. > :30:51.judgment, being made by the Sun, do you dislike Harry, disapprove of
:30:51. > :30:59.this? No. They made it is quite clear, the managing director, made
:30:59. > :31:04.it clear, that the Sun, like probably 99.9% of this country,
:31:04. > :31:08.really likes Prince Harry. They don't give a damn about this kind
:31:08. > :31:13.of thing. He's basically the Boris Johnson of the Royal family and
:31:13. > :31:17.people enjoy his humour and like his party-loving. But getting a
:31:17. > :31:23.tackle out, in front of a rather surprised, I suspect, American
:31:23. > :31:29.guests who he never met before, actually I suspect crosses the line.
:31:30. > :31:33.I'm not trying to make a moral judgment, but, it is bizarre. He is
:31:33. > :31:36.a massively famous and powerful person, and on that basis it is a
:31:36. > :31:42.story. It is a story under all circumstances and one of the
:31:42. > :31:47.reasons why, the Independent isn't doing as well as the Sun is its
:31:47. > :31:51.decision not to publish pictures, not under your expert editorship.
:31:51. > :32:00.You know what it is like to lose popularity. If this loses the Sun a
:32:01. > :32:05.lot of popular readers, will it have been worth it? Well, I suspect
:32:05. > :32:09.that it certainly wornt have the Hillsborough, effect if that's the
:32:09. > :32:16.point you're making and it will abone-day wonder. Next week, it
:32:16. > :32:22.will be fish and chips, accept for a load of politically motivated MPs,
:32:22. > :32:29.who fancy appearing on Newsnight. There's no such thing as fish and
:32:29. > :32:36.chips, because everything stays on the internet. Would you expect the
:32:36. > :32:41.palace to treat this with rig gor, the press complaints at this point?
:32:41. > :32:45.They were saying please don't run these pictures. Do you think that's
:32:45. > :32:51.made it worse? I would have thought that's not the wiseest thing for
:32:51. > :32:55.them to have done, it haes made an issue of press versus the palace.
:32:55. > :32:59.One thing I disagree S because it is on the internet and people seen
:32:59. > :33:02.it, therefore we owe it to our readers to see it. What I say S
:33:02. > :33:08.there's a lot of material on the internet, that people can freely
:33:08. > :33:11.see, which no newspaper, not even the Sun, would ever dream of
:33:11. > :33:17.printing. That's a speechless argument. What would be your
:33:17. > :33:21.message then, to the Sun as it stands? Is that just about dying
:33:21. > :33:26.circulation figures? No they've made a mistake this morning. I'm
:33:26. > :33:31.puzzleed why, what's change fred today, from tomorrow, rather than
:33:31. > :33:38.this morning. The story hasn't advanced. What did happen, is they
:33:38. > :33:41.had an intern take her clothes off, she Z she was photographing one of
:33:42. > :33:46.their employees, and that was on the front page, I thought that was
:33:46. > :33:51.mocked up and tawdry, so, tomorrow, they've gone and published the real
:33:51. > :33:57.thing. It has to be about sales. It has to
:33:57. > :34:01.be, I suspect that rue port Murdoch got involved. He's in no mood what
:34:01. > :34:06.the establishment are saying. Labour MPs, are going to stop
:34:06. > :34:10.Murdoch, that's the last thing that will stop him right now. Not just
:34:10. > :34:14.Labour MPs, but is this a big two fingers up to Leveson do you think?
:34:14. > :34:21.I hope so. I certainly hope so, because it is
:34:21. > :34:26.about time somebody did. I find, Leveson, gut-churning, in most
:34:26. > :34:32.respects. I hated him when he said I hoped the Leveson effect wouldn't
:34:32. > :34:38.end with the end of his tribunal. And actually, I wish more people
:34:38. > :34:44.had stuck their fingers up to him, and I salute Rupert to do that.
:34:44. > :34:50.Even if a 27-year-old lad, who is having fun, not doing any harm,
:34:50. > :34:55.becomes the victim of that? Well, it is not unwitting victim. You
:34:55. > :35:00.know, he must realise, that with his rather important role as a
:35:00. > :35:04.Prince of our country, and he's number three on the throne, he has
:35:04. > :35:09.to carry various responsibilities with him, which I suspect a young
:35:09. > :35:15.producer on Newsnight wouldn't have. To find equivalence between him and
:35:15. > :35:21.the guy down on the Dough and Duck who has been extra two pints of
:35:21. > :35:29.strong bow is right. He knows when he walks warned bodyguards and when
:35:29. > :35:34.he gets performance at the Olympics, he knows, I would be grateful if he
:35:34. > :35:39.stopped getting his tackle out. ran out of time just at that moment.
:35:39. > :35:44.As South Africa mourned hits dead miners, victims of a crackdown of
:35:44. > :35:49.forces, after a industrial action, President Jacod Zuma set out terms
:35:49. > :35:56.for a judicial inquiry. It began as demand of wage increases for those
:35:56. > :36:02.doing deadly work, but now it is a turf war, simic of a country deeply
:36:02. > :36:12.ill at ease and request for workers freedoms, 18 years after apartheid.
:36:12. > :36:13.
:36:13. > :36:18.After the killings and bitter recriminations, time to remember
:36:18. > :36:28.the dead. This morning, in an enormous
:36:28. > :36:28.
:36:28. > :36:35.marquee, set up beside shacks, all sides came together at last.
:36:35. > :36:39.Nandipha Guniza lost her husband four weeks ago. Across the aisle,
:36:39. > :36:44.ANC minister, Collins Chabane whose committee on the tragedy organised
:36:44. > :36:48.this event. Here the minister of police, and the outspoken Bishop of
:36:48. > :36:52.preteara, who has been trying to broker an toned the strike, which a
:36:52. > :36:57.volatile situation which police and miners accrues each other of
:36:57. > :37:02.violence. Two policemen were among ten others killed, during a feud
:37:02. > :37:06.between rifle mining unions. Originally, there were to be two
:37:06. > :37:09.rival memorial services, one official event attended by the mine
:37:09. > :37:14.owners and Government and second service, organised by the striking
:37:14. > :37:17.miners themselves. The two sides have been brought together, after
:37:17. > :37:21.last-minute negotiations involving senior clergy. A rare and welcome
:37:21. > :37:26.sign of unity in a community bitterly divided since the killings
:37:26. > :37:30.here last week. This is where the 24 miners were killed, close to the
:37:30. > :37:34.service. They came, charging down from that
:37:34. > :37:44.rocky outcrop towards the police lines. What happened next was the
:37:44. > :37:46.
:37:46. > :37:50.most bloodiest security operation, It's clear from the pictures that
:37:50. > :37:55.police opened fire with assault rifles, but it is hard tore tell
:37:55. > :38:02.whether the miners had guns and traditional weapons like machetes.
:38:02. > :38:06.Where in the world, have you seen people confronting the police.
:38:06. > :38:10.Remember, we lost policemen, a lot of people have been killed by the
:38:10. > :38:16.instruments. There's nothing traditional about the spear, when
:38:16. > :38:21.you are facing into your eyes. So, ANC the commission will
:38:21. > :38:27.revolutionise things, what went wrong, who was wrong, who was right.
:38:27. > :38:33.These are killings that shocked South Africa. Bishop of preteara
:38:33. > :38:36.and President of South African councils. It was the bloodiest
:38:36. > :38:44.operation since apartheid. What does it mean for South Africa?
:38:44. > :38:50.is shocking, and disgraceful. That is the biggest misker and we're all
:38:50. > :38:55.ashamed to be South Africans. Miners come to Marikana, in the
:38:55. > :38:59.platinum belt of the north west Province from all ofrt country and
:38:59. > :39:04.beyond, simply because there is work. Though there are complaints
:39:04. > :39:09.about conditions and wages. Rock drillers earn less than �100 a week,
:39:09. > :39:14.and are on strike because they want that tripleed. Nandipha Guniza came
:39:14. > :39:19.from the Eastern Cape, far from the south to follow her husband, a rock
:39:19. > :39:26.driller shot dead last week. She lives in one room W a young son and
:39:26. > :39:31.two week old baby. TRANSLATION: My husband was there
:39:31. > :39:35.and wanted a living wage. Because they were underpaid by the mines,
:39:35. > :39:40.and they are working through difficult conditions. What are you
:39:40. > :39:46.going to do now? TRANSLATION: Living here with my
:39:46. > :39:55.husband was better. Now, I don't know how will I cope without my
:39:55. > :39:59.husband. Because the only person that was next to me was my husband.
:39:59. > :40:05.Long minute say 4,000 people flif hostels, convert to single and
:40:05. > :40:09.double units. Thousands live in the informal settlements and are paid a
:40:09. > :40:14.housing allowance, for their rent. The conditions here are basic,
:40:14. > :40:19.puting it mildly. I was shown around the area, known as wonder
:40:19. > :40:25.cop, by Goodman Masiko one of the striking miners. Familys here, he
:40:25. > :40:30.said had just one room. Everything you cook here, living here, wash
:40:30. > :40:34.here. Sometimes, water is coming out. It is difficult. Very
:40:34. > :40:43.difficult. Sometimes you find seven people in one room. Maybe three,
:40:43. > :40:49.sometimes, two, with children. Depends on the situation. Rt Rev Dr
:40:49. > :40:52.Jo Seoka is quietly arranging meetings between the management and
:40:52. > :40:55.miners. He is sympathetic to the mineser problems. He is chairman of
:40:55. > :41:04.the benchmarks foundation, which monitors the living conditions of
:41:04. > :41:10.the mine workers. The conditions of miners have not changed much. In
:41:10. > :41:15.fact, there is evidence that living allowances are not efficient and
:41:15. > :41:22.the workers are living in appalling conditions. Appalling conditions?
:41:22. > :41:25.Yes. It is not different from the hostels, during the apartheid.
:41:25. > :41:29.Should the ANC be blamed for housing conditions on the mines?
:41:29. > :41:34.The ministers suggest the mine companies should be doing more.
:41:34. > :41:40.We'd like the mining houses, or any employer for that matter, to
:41:40. > :41:45.provide for facility, for the workers, where they can, and ensure
:41:45. > :41:53.they are a state, in maintaining better living standard. Can you put
:41:53. > :41:56.pressures on companies like long minute. We thr is no law, this is a
:41:57. > :42:02.lawful society. It is democratic. You cannot force anyone to do
:42:02. > :42:06.anything, which is unlawful. Unless we're changing our laws.
:42:06. > :42:12.killings ensure this will become far more than a dispute about mine
:42:12. > :42:18.wages. The ANC are in power for 18 years now. And are increasingly
:42:18. > :42:26.criticised for not delivering on jobs or public services. Its
:42:26. > :42:29.leaders oven - often seen as elite. How big a crisis is this for the
:42:29. > :42:35.ANC. The ANC reputation has been damaged by the strike and not just
:42:35. > :42:41.because of the killings. The strike is led by the break away, AMC union,
:42:41. > :42:47.which accused the established, MUNN close to the ANC and mine owners
:42:47. > :42:53.and getting support at Americaa. I'm supporting, AMCU, because these
:42:53. > :43:00.are the ones that are staying with us. People are saying the MUN is
:43:00. > :43:05.close to the ANC. Do you think this is making the people less scene on
:43:05. > :43:13.the ANC? It is, people don't trust ANC any more because of the these
:43:13. > :43:18.things. If MUM is having shares in the company, and ANC is the part of
:43:18. > :43:23.the MUC, and they told the police to come and shoot at us. Another
:43:23. > :43:28.problem the ANC face is the firebrand, Julius Malema once
:43:28. > :43:34.leader of the ANC youth league but now expelled from the party. He
:43:34. > :43:39.called from President Zuma to resign and mines to be nationalised.
:43:39. > :43:43.When we met him he was with the police station, laying charges of
:43:43. > :43:47.the police for the killings. I have the those people had weapons, and
:43:47. > :43:52.therefore they were dangerous, it is not true. You must look at Mr
:43:52. > :43:59.President Zuma's pictures, every time he is at home, when he gets
:43:59. > :44:03.married all the time he careies the same weapons, as the workers. Is he
:44:03. > :44:07.carrying dangerous weapons during wedings. That's not true. There is
:44:07. > :44:14.nothing dangerous about the weapons sthoox the police will say,
:44:14. > :44:20.presumably the workers were charactering at them? There was an
:44:20. > :44:23.argument a worker was the first one to shoot. Let's say there was such
:44:23. > :44:29.a worker, highly trained police should have the capacity to
:44:29. > :44:33.identify that worker, amongst the workers. Isolate him and take him
:44:33. > :44:36.on. The ANC are clearly aware of the potential damage caused by the
:44:36. > :44:41.strike and killings. President Zuma who faces re-election as party
:44:41. > :44:44.leader at the end of the year, visited the mine, there's to be an
:44:44. > :44:49.interministerial and judicial inquiry. It was announced today it
:44:49. > :44:52.will be looking at the role of long minute, rival unions and police.
:44:52. > :44:57.You're confident the ANC hasn't lost backing because of this?
:44:57. > :45:02.don't think so. But, obviously, in elections you can only judge that
:45:02. > :45:12.by the elections, not even by service. By elections themselves.
:45:12. > :45:12.
:45:12. > :45:17.But the mop is not so confident. He argues the strike and killings are
:45:17. > :45:22.symptomatic of South Africa. have greed which led to serious
:45:22. > :45:29.challenge of corruption. Greed from the management, greed from whom?
:45:29. > :45:34.Management, they want to make more money. And give very little to the
:45:34. > :45:40.workers. Our politicians are not doing as much as they promised to
:45:40. > :45:45.do. They're saying that the poor must be looked of. Wealth must be
:45:45. > :45:49.shared. But that's not what is happening. How serious could this
:45:49. > :45:54.be become if the problem is not addressed? It could lead to
:45:54. > :45:57.conflict. It could lead the poor rising up against the rich. It is
:45:57. > :46:02.an extraordinary, and frightening week for Marikana mine and South
:46:02. > :46:08.Africa. It started with a killings at this rocky outcrop, and ended
:46:08. > :46:12.with soul-searching over problems that affect the entire country.
:46:12. > :46:17.Well, a look at tomorrow's front pages. One in particular, making
:46:17. > :46:23.pages. One in particular, making headlines all on its own. The Sun.
:46:23. > :46:28.BBC decide not to show the picture. Op the mirror's front page, Harry
:46:28. > :46:36.with clothes on, Charles tears a strip off Harry as the Vegas girl
:46:36. > :46:42.reveals wild party secrets. Elizabeth Murdoch is on the front
:46:42. > :46:52.of the guardian, she rounds on her brother which spoke a couple of
:46:52. > :47:21.
:47:21. > :47:24.years ago, and praises the BBC. Rain on the menu for this weekend.
:47:25. > :47:29.Disappointing for many, but sunshine at times. We start Friday
:47:30. > :47:36.with a mixture. Showers pushing up across parts of England and
:47:36. > :47:44.Scotland. In between, some drier and brighter
:47:44. > :47:49.spells, across a chunk of England. East Anglia and far south-east.
:47:49. > :47:53.Clouds looming close to London, wet weather sweeping in, much of Wales,
:47:53. > :47:57.might clear up across Devon and Cornwall, but don't bank on that
:47:57. > :48:02.one. Thunder mixed in with this heavy rain and gusty winds. The wet
:48:02. > :48:10.weather will be pushing up through the Irish Sea, knockingen a the
:48:10. > :48:14.door of County Down. Scotland is not shaping up too badly. One or
:48:14. > :48:19.two showers, most places will be reasonably dry and bright.
:48:19. > :48:23.Looking into Saturday, disturbed spell of weather, just for all of
:48:23. > :48:28.us. Heavy showers, prolonged rain, and across southern counties, gusty
:48:28. > :48:33.winds, particularly along the south coast. These could cause problems