:00:13. > :00:18.A spectacular Opening Ceremony kicks off the biggest Paralympic
:00:18. > :00:22.Games ever. But will there be any benefit to people living with a
:00:22. > :00:26.disability in the United Kingdom. What is it that breathes higher
:00:26. > :00:30.into the equation, and makes a universe for them to describe.
:00:30. > :00:35.the next 11 days, more than 4,000 athletes from all over the world
:00:35. > :00:38.will give of their best. Stephen hawking sets them on their way.
:00:38. > :00:43.There is contrasting views about what the games will achieve.
:00:43. > :00:46.won't change the world, but it will have a positive impact. It will be
:00:46. > :00:52.about exceptional, inspiring individuals, I think it will set up
:00:52. > :00:58.this divide between the good and bad cripple. Amidst the excitement,
:00:58. > :01:01.protests off stage about the Government's major reform of
:01:01. > :01:05.disability allowances, estimated to save billions from the Welfare Bill.
:01:05. > :01:09.We will hear from the Minister for Disabled People, and a specially
:01:09. > :01:12.convened panel. Nick Clegg's unilateral declaration of intent on
:01:12. > :01:22.an emergency wealth tax is dismissed by the Chancellor. Is
:01:22. > :01:25.
:01:25. > :01:29.this any way to run a Government. Let the games begin once more. The
:01:29. > :01:33.Paralympics were founded in Britain in the aftermath of World War ll.
:01:33. > :01:38.Now this year's London games are being billed as the second-largest
:01:38. > :01:42.international sporting event in the world after the Olympics. Can the
:01:42. > :01:46.13th Paralympics bear the weight of expectation heeped on it, of not
:01:46. > :01:56.just being a festival of sport, but a game-changer for the way disabled
:01:56. > :01:58.
:01:58. > :02:04.people are treated every single day. Our disability specialist reports.
:02:04. > :02:08.People look for an understanding of the world, why it exists at all.
:02:08. > :02:15.And why it is as it is. Opening ceremonies are designed to
:02:15. > :02:22.set the stone for the whole event. And the message here is clear,
:02:22. > :02:26.disabled people can excel, and in much more than just sport. But can
:02:26. > :02:30.this parade of glamour have any effect on another side of
:02:30. > :02:35.disability in Britain today. Proposed benefit cuts, increasing
:02:35. > :02:39.reports of verbal and physical abuse, and a growing sense by many
:02:39. > :02:44.disabled people of being undervalued and misunderstood.
:02:44. > :02:47.Over the next few days, this stadium will be packed with people
:02:47. > :02:53.watching the finest disabled athletes in the world. Their
:02:53. > :02:57.exploits on the track, on the wheelchair basketball court, will
:02:58. > :03:01.often seem mind-boggling, far exceeding the abilities of those
:03:01. > :03:05.watching. The word "inspirational" will hang heavy in the air. For
:03:05. > :03:12.those working to improve the situation of disabled people, this
:03:12. > :03:18.has the potential to be a watershed moment. The opportunity is not lost
:03:19. > :03:21.on campaigning organisations, like Scope. I'm still relatively
:03:21. > :03:25.optimistic about what the Paralympics can do. And about the
:03:25. > :03:29.visibility it will bring. I think there is also a point to be made
:03:29. > :03:33.about the people who are commentating, who are disabled
:03:33. > :03:41.sports people, who understand the amount of training and preparation
:03:41. > :03:46.and so on, that has gone into producing a Paralympic athlete.
:03:46. > :03:50.spanking new wheelchairs, worth many thousands of pounds, and
:03:50. > :03:55.prosthetic limbs made to order, are a far cry from the lives of
:03:55. > :04:01.thousands of ordinary disabled people. Work by Scope has
:04:01. > :04:07.established, that for many disabled people, life now is tough and
:04:07. > :04:14.getting tougher. What the general public sees is the stories about us
:04:14. > :04:19.being scroungers and benefit cheats, and being fit for work, when we say
:04:19. > :04:23.we're not, and taking Disability Living Allowance, when actually we
:04:23. > :04:27.are perfectly capable of playing golf, or whatever it happens to be.
:04:27. > :04:31.It is those kinds of things that the general public sees, they don't
:04:31. > :04:38.see the cuts, the genuine distress, the problems that disabled people
:04:38. > :04:45.are experiencing. This sport is not one of the more glamorous
:04:45. > :04:49.Paralympic events, Bottia, a form of bowls, was invented to provide
:04:50. > :04:53.competition for people with more severe disabilities. It has taken
:04:53. > :04:56.Nigel Murray all over the world, and brought him gold medals in
:04:56. > :05:01.Sydney baijifpblgt he acknowledges that previous games may not have
:05:01. > :05:05.done much more disabled people here, having them in London is the key
:05:05. > :05:09.factor. I think this time it is going to be different, because
:05:09. > :05:14.really, in previous years gone by, the Paralympics have just come and
:05:14. > :05:18.gone. And once the media attention is gone away, I think, that's it
:05:18. > :05:24.for people. But I think the fact that we are the host, it is going
:05:24. > :05:32.to be taking place in London, there is going to be unprecedented
:05:32. > :05:38.amounts of coverage. Liz Carr doesn't give a jot about sport.
:05:39. > :05:43.would be free, no we'd be compelled to cure it. Drama is her thing, and
:05:43. > :05:48.here she's rehearsing a play which explores how easily disabled people
:05:48. > :05:54.can be classified and institutionalised. She respects the
:05:54. > :06:01.right of other disabled people to play sport, but believes, what she
:06:01. > :06:07.calls the super-crip, is just one more disability stereotype. Hate
:06:07. > :06:11.crime against disabled people is at an all-time high, and disabled
:06:11. > :06:15.people are seen as scroungers and a drain on the state. We have
:06:15. > :06:19.paralympians who are amazing and then the rest of us, I wonder that
:06:19. > :06:25.things like the Paralympics will set up a divide between two groups
:06:25. > :06:30.of disabled people. Inspirational porn is the latest phrase being
:06:30. > :06:34.bandied around, to describe the extraordinary achievements of
:06:34. > :06:38.disabled athletes. We are seen as inspiring beings, not whole people,
:06:38. > :06:44.much as porn, you know, in its trueest sense, object fies women or
:06:44. > :06:48.men that take part in it, arguably. We will see more disability on TV
:06:48. > :06:53.in this 12 days, than we have seen in the 12 years previous. So the
:06:53. > :06:58.public, disabled and non-disabled people, will be getting their
:06:58. > :07:01.messages about disability from this. It will be about exceptional,
:07:01. > :07:11.inspiring individuals. And I think it is going to set up this divide
:07:11. > :07:12.
:07:12. > :07:15.between the good and the bad cripple. Surprisingly, perhaps,
:07:15. > :07:19.Britain's most celebrated paralympian, has quit a lot of
:07:19. > :07:25.sympathy with that argument. I was there the night Tanni Grey-Thompson
:07:25. > :07:30.achieved one of the most dramatic of her 11 gold medals. But in her
:07:30. > :07:35.life after sport, the now, "Baroness" Grey-Thompson, has been
:07:35. > :07:40.in involved in the fight to protect the benefits of disabled people
:07:40. > :07:44.from welfare cuts. The reality is the Paralympics is the fairy dust
:07:44. > :07:47.of life as a disabled people. It shows a snapshot in time of
:07:47. > :07:51.extraordinary people who train very hard and who are good at sport.
:07:51. > :07:55.Whether or not that will ultimately change the lives of disabled people
:07:55. > :08:00.in the long-term is up to much greater debate. If there is one
:08:00. > :08:06.thing the Paralympics could do is opening people's minds, saying they
:08:06. > :08:11.used to have a dreadful opinion of disabled people and it is not now
:08:11. > :08:16.it won't change the world but it could have a positive impact.
:08:16. > :08:21.peerence of covering the last four Paralympics, tells me that for the
:08:21. > :08:25.next few days, disability will be on everyone's lips, it also tells
:08:25. > :08:32.me, that memories can fade very fast. What I don't want to happen
:08:32. > :08:36.is that we go, wow, amazing, it must be incredibly to be able --
:08:36. > :08:40.incredible to be disabled, they can run and smile and are just like us,
:08:40. > :08:44.we are, but we are all facing difficult times ahead. Let's not
:08:44. > :08:49.forget that. I'm joined by paralympian
:08:49. > :08:53.basketball player, Ann Wild, now a pistol shooter, actress and trainee
:08:53. > :08:57.lawyer, Shannon Murray, and comedienne and writer, Francesca
:08:57. > :09:01.Martinez. What did you make of the Opening Ceremony, Stephen Hawking,
:09:02. > :09:05.the presiding figure. I thought it was brilliant to see such a
:09:05. > :09:09.fabulous spectacle celebrating all aspects of disability. Something we
:09:09. > :09:15.never see on TV. I think it was great that Stephen Hawking was
:09:15. > :09:19.there, I think it would be crazy if he wasn't. He is, I guess, the most
:09:19. > :09:23.famous disabled person, definitely in the UK, and the world. While it
:09:23. > :09:27.would be crazy not to have him, it plays into the problem we have,
:09:27. > :09:31.that the only well known disabled people are either Stephen Hawking
:09:31. > :09:34.or Tanni Grey-Thompson. Your options are either a physicist, or
:09:34. > :09:39.Paralympic athlete, and there are a lot of disabled people inbetween.
:09:39. > :09:45.What did you think of it? I loved it, I thought it was fantastic to
:09:45. > :09:50.see so much diversity on TV. The media is really bad usually at
:09:50. > :09:55.representing difference, and I think the media really has a lot of
:09:55. > :10:02.power. It could normalise difference. So that aspect is
:10:02. > :10:06.fantastic. I would like to hope that one day the Paralympics would
:10:06. > :10:13.be more integrated with the main games, because I think that there
:10:13. > :10:21.is a danger that it is viewed as a separate entity, and it confirms
:10:21. > :10:26.the stereotype that disabled people are a separate group from society,
:10:26. > :10:30.it confirms the "them and us" thinking. I don't like that, I
:10:30. > :10:35.think there are no normal people, everyone is different. Disability
:10:36. > :10:39.is normal. It has always existed, it always will exist. You as a
:10:39. > :10:42.former paralympian, you have changed your sport, you are no
:10:42. > :10:46.longer basketball, and going for pistol shooting, we will see
:10:46. > :10:49.probably in Rio. What do you think about that. That the Paralympics
:10:49. > :10:54.can only emphasise separateness, rather than bringing it together
:10:54. > :10:59.with the Olympics? I think things have changed dramatically this time
:10:59. > :11:02.round. This will be the best games ever as paralympians, it will
:11:02. > :11:09.change people's perceptions of disability. We are also narrowing
:11:09. > :11:13.the gap between the Olympics and Paralympics. You look at Oscar
:11:13. > :11:17.Pistorias, a double amputee, and competing in the Olympics. We are
:11:17. > :11:21.lessening the gap between Olympics and Paralympics. What do you say to
:11:21. > :11:25.Liz Carr's criticism that it leads to inspiration porn. That you have
:11:25. > :11:28.people with disability who load their lives, and then there is the
:11:28. > :11:31.elite athletes, and again that emphasising another separation?
:11:31. > :11:37.think it is an interesting idea, but it is not one that applies to
:11:37. > :11:40.me, as a person, because obviously I kind of cover quite a few
:11:40. > :11:44.different areas. I was a professional occupational therapist,
:11:44. > :11:48.I was also a paralympian, but I have also needed the help and
:11:48. > :11:52.support of the Government when I haven't been able to be part of
:11:52. > :11:57.society as I would have wanted to be. Do you think there is a problem
:11:57. > :12:02.with the superhuman tag? I think there can be. I think amongst
:12:02. > :12:06.disabled people, I don't really have many friends who are disabled
:12:06. > :12:09.who are athletes, but many who are creative and work in media. When
:12:09. > :12:13.anything about disability is out on television or in newspapers,
:12:13. > :12:18.particularly, obviously, in 2012, there is a huge emphasis on the
:12:18. > :12:26.Paralympics, on being superhuman, on being a super, amazing athlete,
:12:26. > :12:35.who has overcome huge feats, which are stories in themselves and need
:12:35. > :12:41.to be told. But what worries me, as Liz said, there is a huge gulf in -
:12:41. > :12:46.- inbetween, a successful disabled person in their own life. You have
:12:46. > :12:50.a poll where 72% of people polled believe that people with
:12:50. > :12:55.disabilities are not visible in the media outside the Paralympics. Do
:12:55. > :13:01.you think the Olympics being in -- Paralympics in London will change
:13:01. > :13:06.that. There will be lots more comediennes with cerebral palsy
:13:06. > :13:10.will be on television and actresses in wheelchairs? I think celebrating
:13:11. > :13:16.the achievements of disabled people, and allowing us to be portrayed in
:13:16. > :13:21.a positive strong way, instead of as victims is great. But there is a
:13:21. > :13:28.real polarisation in the press between parts of the press seem to
:13:28. > :13:32.want to demonise us as benefits cheats and drains on society. And
:13:32. > :13:42.part of it saying we are inspirational and amazing. There is
:13:42. > :13:43.
:13:43. > :13:47.no real middle ground there. I think it is highly ironic that ATOS
:13:47. > :13:53.is the sponsor, and they are the private company carrying out the
:13:53. > :13:56.Government cuts. I find that highly hypocritical, and I know a lot of
:13:56. > :13:59.disabled people all around the country are very sickened about
:13:59. > :14:04.that. We will talk about that later. What about visibility, from your
:14:04. > :14:08.point of view, what about the general attitudes, obviously an
:14:08. > :14:11.elite Olympic athlete, but generally, in your day-to-day life,
:14:11. > :14:14.what are attitudes like? I think they are changing. People are
:14:14. > :14:17.starting to ask more questions. They are not as scared of
:14:17. > :14:22.disability as they once were. People were very anxious about
:14:22. > :14:27.asking me things about my life and who I was as a person. Now it is
:14:27. > :14:31.all about exposure of people, rather than being labelled as a
:14:31. > :14:35.certain athlete, or as a professional, or as somebody who
:14:35. > :14:38.doesn't work. I'm now being exposed as a person, to society. Rather
:14:38. > :14:42.than just something that has been labelled. That was another thing
:14:43. > :14:46.that Liz Carr said, of course, that the danger was you saw somebody as
:14:46. > :14:49.an inspirational figure, rather than a person? I think that happens
:14:49. > :14:54.a lot, when you are disabled. Particularly if you are disabled
:14:54. > :14:57.and doing something not expected of you. Is that a problem, not enough
:14:57. > :15:01.is expected? Possibly. Maybe sometimes when you are disabled, it
:15:01. > :15:07.is easy to surpass people's expectations, I know when I was
:15:07. > :15:09.injured, the reason I almost ran away, as it were, from Paralympic
:15:09. > :15:13.athletics, was because it was what was put in front of me, this is
:15:13. > :15:16.what you can achieve. I felt that wasn't what I wanted today achieve
:15:16. > :15:20.before my accident, why after my accident. I haven't changed as a
:15:20. > :15:23.person hugely. I felt a little bit like people were putting a ceiling
:15:24. > :15:28.on what I could do. And say here is the Paralympics this is what you
:15:28. > :15:32.can do. I didn't want to do it. You're an actress, a writer, you
:15:32. > :15:38.are training to be a lawyer now. In people's day-to-day dealings with
:15:38. > :15:41.you, have you seen a shift in the last few years, or have you had to
:15:41. > :15:47.make sure that happened yourself, have you had to be out there?
:15:47. > :15:50.have never, on a one-to-one with people in my daily life, I don't
:15:50. > :15:55.experience huge degrees of negativeity. Where I get it would
:15:56. > :15:59.be in transport situations. So taxi drivers can be less than helpful,
:15:59. > :16:02.airlines and special assistance at airports can be really less than
:16:02. > :16:05.helpful. They are the situations you are left helpless, if you are
:16:05. > :16:09.sitting on a train, and you have communicated by e-mail and phone
:16:09. > :16:12.that you need a ramp at the station, and when you get to the station
:16:12. > :16:16.there is no ramp and the train is about to get to the next station,
:16:16. > :16:21.it is that feeling of humiliation, and degrading that you have to
:16:21. > :16:25.approach strangers for help. What is your experience of that?
:16:25. > :16:31.really think that the Paralympics will help improve attitudes.
:16:31. > :16:36.when you are out in your daily life, do you find people? I think it is
:16:36. > :16:43.complex. I think we have, I think attitudes are improving in one
:16:43. > :16:48.sense, but also we have the fact that disability hate crime is at a
:16:48. > :16:52.record high, so that is very worrying. We also have the
:16:52. > :17:02.Government systematically attacking basic human rights of disabled
:17:02. > :17:03.
:17:04. > :17:12.people. You are, your new show, what is the title? It is called
:17:12. > :17:19."What the Four- star is Normal", it is looking at the labels, everyone
:17:19. > :17:25.has a disability, are you normal? In a way it seems disproportion in
:17:25. > :17:30.the terms of the advertising, you have Pistorias, do we have high-
:17:30. > :17:34.visibility of people with mental disability? Not really, I wasn't
:17:34. > :17:38.aware those rules had changed in the week, that was just because I
:17:38. > :17:42.saw it on my Twitter feed. That is a huge step forward. I think Oscar
:17:42. > :17:46.has received a lot of press, he was in the Olympics, he's naturally
:17:46. > :17:52.going to go under all that attention. I think there are an
:17:53. > :17:56.awful lot of athletes out there that deserve equal credits. The
:17:56. > :18:01.advertising campaign Channel 4 has done has been incredible. It has
:18:01. > :18:07.made Paralympics and disability cool and edgey, it has made people
:18:07. > :18:11.want to watch, without it being an inspiring story, it is just looking
:18:12. > :18:16.like great TV. Many disabled people are concerned about the Government
:18:16. > :18:19.reforms to disability benefits. The Government says financial
:18:20. > :18:28.assistance will be channelled to those most in need, after major
:18:28. > :18:33.reform was passed earlier this year. The Government says �6600 million
:18:33. > :18:37.is need -- �600 million is needlessly wasted. There have been
:18:37. > :18:46.allegations that ATOS, those charged with seeing who is fit to
:18:46. > :18:49.work, and a major Paralympic sponsor too, is not putting in the
:18:49. > :18:54.reform fairly. Crowds cheer the torch, while many disabled people
:18:54. > :19:00.in Britain are worried about their own future, as benefits change.
:19:00. > :19:03.Ella Findlay has multiple sclerosis, she works as a recruitment adviser
:19:03. > :19:08.for disabled people. Disability Living Allowance helps pay for her
:19:09. > :19:12.car and scooter. She's concerned her benefit will be cut. If it
:19:12. > :19:16.weren't more the motorability element of my DNA, I wouldn't be
:19:16. > :19:22.able to get to my job, I wouldn't have a reliable car, all of these
:19:22. > :19:31.things. It enables me to remain independent, and provide, pay my
:19:31. > :19:36.taxes, all of these things. So I remain financially semi-independent.
:19:37. > :19:39.The broad aim of the two main disability benefits remains the
:19:39. > :19:46.same. Incapacity Benefit, now called Employment Support Allowance,
:19:46. > :19:50.is for people who cannot work. Disability Living Allowance, soon
:19:50. > :19:54.to be Personal Independence Payment, is to help people with their daily
:19:54. > :19:59.livesment for the employed, unemployed, even children. Since
:19:59. > :20:04.2003, claims for Incapacity Benefit have fallen, while claims for DLA,
:20:04. > :20:08.have risen. It costs the Government over �12 billion a year, more than
:20:08. > :20:13.double the cost of jobseeker's allowance. The key thing is to make
:20:13. > :20:17.sure that resources are used efficiently, one would hope that
:20:17. > :20:21.could involve substantial savings, but also those resources actually
:20:21. > :20:25.enable people to overcome disabilities, to overcome problems,
:20:25. > :20:28.and actually be economically productive, and largely self-
:20:28. > :20:32.sufficient, that has to be the aim of the policy. Just because it is a
:20:32. > :20:35.controversial area of policy, just because it is an area that rouses
:20:35. > :20:38.very high emotions in the debate. I don't think that is a reason for
:20:38. > :20:42.the coalition not to tackle it. This is the headquarters of the
:20:42. > :20:47.French firm, ATOS, they run medical assessments of disabled people, on
:20:47. > :20:50.behalf of the Government, to check whether they are fit for work. They
:20:50. > :20:57.have made many mistakes, campaigners say, and to mark that,
:20:57. > :21:04.on the eve of the London Paralympic Games, they have staged their own,
:21:04. > :21:08.rather macabre, stunt. Presenting ATOS, a Paralympic sponsor, with a
:21:08. > :21:13.coffin, that stands, they say, for hundreds of people, who have died
:21:13. > :21:17.after they were assessed by ATOS, as able to work, and their
:21:17. > :21:23.Incapacity Benefit was withdrawn. Nearly 40% of appeals against ATOS
:21:23. > :21:26.assessments are upheld. And from next year, ATOS will be assessing
:21:26. > :21:31.claimants for Disability Living Allowance too. ATOS said that it
:21:31. > :21:34.did not make decisions on people's benefit entitlement, or on welfare
:21:34. > :21:38.policy, but provided a service as highly professional and
:21:38. > :21:42.compassionate as it can be. reason that Disability Living
:21:42. > :21:48.Allowance came about in the first place, was under the Conservative
:21:48. > :21:58.Government of Thatcher, they understood that people with
:21:58. > :22:00.
:22:00. > :22:03.disabltsd faced extra costs in managing their lives in a -- the
:22:03. > :22:08.world. It was to make sure those people got what they needed. We are
:22:08. > :22:14.not taking money for no reason. It is not something that we are just
:22:14. > :22:20.tkwrasening and pocketing. One -- Grasping and pocketing.
:22:20. > :22:24.significant change, the most disabled suesed to get disability
:22:24. > :22:28.allowance -- disability -- used to get Disability Living Allowance
:22:28. > :22:33.automatically, that is not the case in future. It is right to say there
:22:33. > :22:37.isn't blanket entitlements, and people have to be assessed. There
:22:37. > :22:41.hasn't been proper assessment. The more you go down a long list saying
:22:41. > :22:47.this particular problem or disability will automatically
:22:47. > :22:51.render you eligible for receipt of DLA, you actually start to remove a
:22:51. > :22:57.lot of the discretion we need to show in each particular
:22:57. > :23:00.circumstance. The Paralympics will be the face of disability for the
:23:00. > :23:05.next 11 days, once the games are over, the difficult issue of
:23:05. > :23:09.disability benefits will come to the fore again. More from our panel
:23:09. > :23:16.in a moment. Earlier I spoke to the Minister for Disabled People, Maria
:23:16. > :23:17.Miller. The reforms coming in next year,
:23:17. > :23:23.when Disability Living Allowance becomes Personal Independence
:23:24. > :23:28.Payments which, the DWP's figures, you hope to save 20% of the budget
:23:28. > :23:32.by 2015. One would say n these recessionary times, a laudible aim,
:23:32. > :23:36.will you do it? What we will do with the reform of Disability
:23:36. > :23:41.Living Allowance, is continue to spend the same amount as we were
:23:41. > :23:46.last year by 2015, 16, what we are -- 2016, what we are trying to do
:23:46. > :23:51.is keep the amount of spending on disability allowance under control.
:23:51. > :23:54.I think that is control. At the moment we know that more than �600
:23:54. > :23:58.million is going out in overpayments to people who no
:23:58. > :24:01.longer qualify for the level of benefit support that they are
:24:01. > :24:05.receiving. It is important we have those sorts of checks in place. At
:24:05. > :24:09.the moment there is no way of reassessing individuals, and these
:24:09. > :24:13.are all important things to do. Particularly now, at a time when we
:24:13. > :24:17.have the Paralympics in London, that we have a benefits system that
:24:17. > :24:21.is there to support people, and not potentially leave them trapped in
:24:21. > :24:25.benefit dependency. Let's talk about the in coming assessments,
:24:25. > :24:29.done by ATOS, many of those for whom Disability Living Allowance is
:24:29. > :24:35.automatic, will not necessarily qualify for Personal Independence
:24:35. > :24:41.Payments. Led me just read you the list. Severe mental impairment,
:24:41. > :24:48.deaf blindness, severe visual impairment, double amputee, chemmo,
:24:48. > :24:54.dialysis, that means you will not amically qualify if you are a
:24:54. > :24:57.double amputee? Nobody is advocating a benefit focusing on an
:24:57. > :25:01.individual impairment. What most disability organisations and most
:25:01. > :25:04.disabled people want, is a disability support system that
:25:04. > :25:10.focuses on their every day needs, not whether or not they have this
:25:10. > :25:13.condition or that condition. We are working with 60 disability
:25:13. > :25:17.organisations to put together the new payment, that is the approach
:25:17. > :25:24.they have asked us to take, that is ate proch we have taken. Let's look
:25:24. > :25:31.at the -- The approach we have taken. Let's look at the Incapacity
:25:31. > :25:35.Benefit changed to ESA, there is 40% appealing, and 40% have had the
:25:35. > :25:38.decision reversed, why is that? employment sport allowance is
:25:38. > :25:40.different to the Personal Independence Payment, the
:25:40. > :25:43.Employment Support Allowance is whether or not you are able to get
:25:43. > :25:47.into work. Yes, there are appeals there, we are working with the
:25:47. > :25:51.court system to make sure that we can do everything we can to
:25:52. > :25:57.understand why suppose things are happening. We are working now with
:25:57. > :26:00.the judges to understand that much better. We have spoken to Citizens
:26:00. > :26:04.Advice Bureau, they are talking about the length of time of the
:26:04. > :26:06.wait for an appeal being a year. Can you guarantee under the new
:26:06. > :26:11.system of Personal Independence Payments that nobody will have to
:26:11. > :26:14.wait for a year for their appeal. The system with Disability Living
:26:15. > :26:18.Allowance, at the moment, and with Personal Independence Payment, is
:26:18. > :26:23.quite different. If people are reassessed under the Disability
:26:23. > :26:27.Living Allowance, yes you can appeal, you don't continue to
:26:27. > :26:31.receive payments after you have been found ineligible for benefit.
:26:31. > :26:36.Exactly my point? That is the system at the moment. If there is a
:26:36. > :26:40.year's wait for appeal, as there is in certain cases, that could be
:26:40. > :26:46.extremely debilitating for people? We are working with 60 disability
:26:46. > :26:48.organisations to make sure we get the assessment right and it is
:26:48. > :26:52.implemented properly. We are undertaking assessments in a
:26:52. > :26:56.different way to the way they are done with the Work Capability
:26:56. > :26:59.Assessment. We will be using regional contracts, NHS, and two
:26:59. > :27:03.different companies to administer it. We are very much working on
:27:03. > :27:09.making sure we get it right. you explain why so many disability
:27:09. > :27:14.groups are very critical of these changes, Scope, for example?
:27:14. > :27:20.Clearly it is a change to baen fit that has been in place for almost -
:27:20. > :27:24.- A to a benefit that has been in place for almost 20 years. What is
:27:24. > :27:27.acknowledged by many organisations is working hard to make sure we get
:27:27. > :27:32.the changes in the assessment right, and most importantly of all, making
:27:32. > :27:35.sure this benefit is all about helping individuals live an
:27:35. > :27:40.independent life. Not simply categorising them on their
:27:40. > :27:43.impairment. Is Scope entirely wrong in their criticism? I have been
:27:43. > :27:46.working closely with them and many other organisations, but as
:27:46. > :27:50.importantly, with disabled people themselves. What they tell me they
:27:50. > :27:55.want the benefit to do, is help them live a more independent life.
:27:55. > :27:59.At the moment we have more than �600 million of Disability Living
:27:59. > :28:04.Allowance, going out to people, who are no longer eligible for that
:28:04. > :28:07.benefit. I think it is enbum bent on the Government to make sure we -
:28:07. > :28:11.- incumbent on the Government to make sure we fix that and the money
:28:11. > :28:15.is going where it is needed and we continue to spend as much money in
:28:15. > :28:20.2016 as we were last year on this benefit. That is more than the
:28:20. > :28:22.entire budget for the department for trons port.
:28:23. > :28:28.Transport. Joining us is Mark Littlewood with my other guests
:28:28. > :28:34.still with us. Shannon, the minister is right,
:28:34. > :28:37.isn't she, that the money has to go to those most in need. Money is
:28:37. > :28:45.being wasted, two million more people claim it now than in 1992,
:28:45. > :28:48.when it came in. Something has to be done? I realise things have to
:28:48. > :28:52.be done, and everyone is in a difficult financial position, there
:28:52. > :28:58.are various benefit that is need to be cut. With the focus on DLA, what
:28:59. > :29:01.they are doing just isn't going to help anybody. I know she's talking
:29:02. > :29:05.about working with disability organisations, all the disability
:29:05. > :29:13.organisations I know completely disagree with the proposed changes
:29:13. > :29:19.to the DLA, the same with disabled people I know. People are scared,
:29:19. > :29:22.the im fibgts of the changes are incredibly debilitating, and not
:29:22. > :29:26.providing independent. People want to be helped into leading an
:29:26. > :29:29.independent life, that is what DLA does. The Disability Living
:29:30. > :29:34.Allowance was given at the time when it was started in 1992, as an
:29:34. > :29:37.allowance for life, that is changed now. How do you feel about being
:29:37. > :29:42.reassessed? I feel terribly disappointed. It doesn't change the
:29:42. > :29:46.fact that I still have a disability. I have had it since I was born. And
:29:46. > :29:51.to be reassessed now is just something that means I may not get
:29:51. > :29:56.the help that I need in my progress through life. If I didn't have the
:29:56. > :30:01.support from DLA in the first place, I'm not sure I would have become an
:30:01. > :30:06.occupational therapist and be part of society the way I am. For me now,
:30:06. > :30:12.certainly it would change my life, in a very negative way. On the
:30:12. > :30:14.evidence of the Incapacity Benefit changes, and the assessments for
:30:14. > :30:19.that. Are you confident it will be the right kind of assessment for
:30:19. > :30:23.people with disability? I'm not sure about that. I'm not here to be
:30:23. > :30:27.a spokesperson for ATOS. We would need to keep that under review. I
:30:27. > :30:30.am sure that the Government is right to look at this. It is a very
:30:30. > :30:38.complicated area. Some of the numbers you have mentioned. In the
:30:38. > :30:41.last nine years, the number of claimants go up from 2.3 million to
:30:41. > :30:46.three million, that is giving us pause for thought, seeing the
:30:46. > :30:50.numbers come up. We have not had a robust system of making sure those
:30:50. > :30:55.people claiming are entitled. It has to be looked into. Is that a
:30:55. > :30:58.measure of success that IB has fallen, Incapacity Benefit has
:30:58. > :31:08.fallen as a result of the new test? There is a measure of success. The
:31:08. > :31:09.
:31:09. > :31:15.question is, what is the opt Numan of appeals, your -- opt minimum of
:31:15. > :31:18.appeals. It is not your responsibility, but it seems
:31:18. > :31:23.extraordinary? Unsurprisingly the processes of Government are moving
:31:23. > :31:27.far too slowly. What is your feeling about assessment? Your life
:31:27. > :31:32.has changed since you were assessed. You are a successful comedienne,
:31:32. > :31:37.what do you think about that? could save people time and
:31:37. > :31:43.resources saying I will not going to wake up tomorrow and say I'm not
:31:43. > :31:49.wobbly any more. This isn't welfare reform, it is welfare cuts. The
:31:49. > :31:59.minister, Chris Greyling talked about tough love and getting people
:31:59. > :32:03.
:32:03. > :32:09.back to work. This benefit has a 0.3% of a fall it is tiny. Chris
:32:09. > :32:12.Greyling imhimself was implicated for the expenses scandal for over
:32:12. > :32:17.�10thou, where is the tough love for the banks and the corporations
:32:17. > :32:22.who still pay little or no tax, where is the tough love for our own
:32:22. > :32:29.Government, half of the MPs were implicated in the expenses scandals.
:32:29. > :32:33.I think we need to ask ourselves who the real scroungers in society
:32:33. > :32:38.really are? What do you say to the Government, that �600 million is
:32:38. > :32:42.being spent in the wrong way, and wasted. Presumably that money, if
:32:42. > :32:46.reassessed, will go to people in real need? You can't look at a
:32:46. > :32:49.benefit, working for 20 years, effectively, and say it should be
:32:49. > :32:52.somewhere else. Why change something that has been working
:32:52. > :32:56.really, really quite well for everybody, in this case. Tell me,
:32:56. > :33:02.Shannon, here you are, you are going to be training as a lawyer,
:33:02. > :33:07.with a bit of luck you will end up as a partner in a high-flying media
:33:07. > :33:12.law firm. You will be earning shed loads of money if you do that. Why
:33:12. > :33:16.should you have a disability allowance, when the taxpayer is
:33:16. > :33:20.struggling any way, and why would you have that as a matter of right?
:33:20. > :33:24.Firstly, no amount of money, no amount of promotions or jobs are
:33:24. > :33:29.going to make me walk again. I could be partner and I still
:33:29. > :33:33.wouldn't be able to walk or use the tubes or buses independently. It's
:33:33. > :33:37.almost a redundant question. If my DLA is taken away from me in the
:33:37. > :33:41.next few years, I won't get to that position any way. DLA is what got
:33:41. > :33:45.me through my A-levels and got me to university, through all my jobs.
:33:45. > :33:50.The jobs that enable me to be a taxpayer and contribute to society.
:33:50. > :33:55.If DLA is taken away from me, and I won't have motorability, or a car,
:33:55. > :33:59.how can I get to work, I can't use the transport system. The point is
:34:00. > :34:04.that the DLA will be replaced by the independent assessment, my
:34:04. > :34:08.point is, that when you are earning a lot of money, do you really need
:34:08. > :34:12.that allowance? I think that depends on what somebody's large
:34:12. > :34:14.amount of money is. That depends, would I be a high earner with a
:34:14. > :34:18.husband out of work and four children. I don't think you can
:34:18. > :34:22.just say you earn this much money, therefore you don't get it. Like in
:34:22. > :34:26.any form of assessment, you have to look at all the circumstances. That
:34:26. > :34:30.is the thing with the DLA assessments, the reason is there is
:34:30. > :34:34.so much fear is the track record with the IB assessments, they are
:34:34. > :34:42.not looking at the big question, there is an eight-page questionaire,
:34:42. > :34:47.it used to be 60-pages, now it is eight-pages, "can you lift a
:34:47. > :34:52.cardboard box", how does that show I'm eligible. Do you think the
:34:52. > :34:57.questionaire is inning? It is, it is there to take the money, not for
:34:57. > :35:03.-- Do you think the cut is insulting? It is, it is there to
:35:03. > :35:07.take the money not to assess. don't think the benefit is being
:35:07. > :35:11.optimally spent. Looking at the statistic, I'm wordied a large
:35:11. > :35:15.number of claims are made with casual reference to a GP. The
:35:15. > :35:21.important thing is to have a robust process that is still trustworthy.
:35:21. > :35:25.It may be that all 3.2 people claiming are legitimately claiming,
:35:25. > :35:29.maybe it will? It is not just the letter from your GP, it is a full
:35:29. > :35:32.assessment. There has been an extraordinary rise in the number,
:35:32. > :35:40.which doesn't seem to be met by any other way of measuring disability.
:35:40. > :35:46.What do you as describe the rise, there has been an exponeings rise
:35:46. > :35:49.since 1992 -- exupon neings rise since 1992? It is what we were
:35:49. > :35:53.saying earlier, there is less people on incapacity, but claiming
:35:53. > :35:56.the right kind of benefit, to enable them to become part of
:35:56. > :36:06.society. And part of the society that they deem is achievable for
:36:06. > :36:07.
:36:07. > :36:14.them. People are choosing the right things and using them in the right
:36:14. > :36:19.way. You could attribute it to science, people able to live a
:36:19. > :36:23.healthy life as a disabled people. There used to be the perception
:36:23. > :36:30.that disabled people were unhealthy. As you can see in the Paralympics,
:36:30. > :36:33.you can be healthy but have mobility issues. The Government is
:36:33. > :36:35.redesigning disability, so many people won't qualify for the
:36:35. > :36:40.benefit, they may be hard to understand, but most disabled
:36:40. > :36:47.people want to work, they want to contribute. I myself have found it
:36:47. > :36:54.so hard all my life to ask for help, under this new system we are
:36:54. > :36:56.forcing disabled people to have to beg, in a very humiliating way, for
:36:57. > :37:02.basic rights. Do you accept that some people have been claiming that
:37:02. > :37:09.shouldn't have been claiming? said before, the ESA fraud raid is
:37:10. > :37:18.0.3%, DLA fraud rate is 0.5%, these are tiny, tiny amounts, and I just
:37:18. > :37:26.want to point that the fraud rate of DLA costs �60 million, where as
:37:26. > :37:30.DLA reforms are costing �710 million. Your numbers differ
:37:31. > :37:34.markedly from the guess mate of the Government figures. These aren't
:37:34. > :37:37.Government figures. Government's figures are they could
:37:37. > :37:41.save a fortune going down this route. They may be proven to be
:37:41. > :37:47.wrong. For something that is costing �12 billion a yeerbgts and
:37:47. > :37:50.applied to 3.2 -- a year, and applied to 3.2 million people. It
:37:50. > :37:55.opens the question, sensitively and carefully, that we are getting the
:37:55. > :37:58.right money to the right place? point about that is surely if the
:37:58. > :38:06.Government's attitude is, it is not case of an open look at this, we
:38:06. > :38:11.definitely want to save money, surely that is incaucated in ATOS?
:38:11. > :38:13.They have reached a view that there are likely claimant that is don't
:38:13. > :38:17.need the money. That does not mean that looking through this
:38:17. > :38:20.substantial welfare budget should be seen as an take on people who do
:38:20. > :38:30.really need help in our society, in order to fully enter the work place.
:38:30. > :38:36.I would like to ask Mark one question, to say if the Government
:38:36. > :38:39.the Government want to save money, why not go after the billions they
:38:39. > :38:44.are losing in tax to wealthy individuals. The Government should
:38:44. > :38:49.save across the board in as many areas as he they can.
:38:49. > :38:53.As they can. The Chancellor has batted off Nick Clegg's idea as an
:38:53. > :38:56.emergency wealth tax, as one might swat off a fly. George Osborne
:38:56. > :38:59.warned that the Deputy Prime Minister's proposal to help the
:38:59. > :39:02.economic recovery, would risk driving the wealthiest people out
:39:02. > :39:07.of the country. Nick Clegg appears to have been flying solo. What does
:39:07. > :39:13.that say for the collation gi., -- coalition Government, or his
:39:13. > :39:23.attitude to senior politicians in his own party.
:39:23. > :39:37.
:39:37. > :39:41.That's how William the Conqueror's early stab at assess the populace
:39:41. > :39:45.started. It was called like God's terrible judgment, it could not be
:39:45. > :39:47.avoided nor challenged. Which is why, after, no doubt, deep speech
:39:48. > :39:53.with his own counsellors, the Deputy Prime Minister, Nick Clegg,
:39:53. > :40:03.has come to the conclusion we need another wealth tax. Interviewed in
:40:03. > :40:17.
:40:17. > :40:21.A mansion tax is a type of wealth tax, one example of a wealth tax.
:40:21. > :40:25.And what Nick Clegg has said today, politics starting again after the
:40:25. > :40:30.summer break, is we must not forget, as a country, that if we are to
:40:30. > :40:34.have a fairer society, and help us grow out of our difficulties, one
:40:34. > :40:39.of the best ways of doing that will be to return to the agenda about
:40:39. > :40:44.whether we have a wealth tax, which we believe we should do, as well as
:40:44. > :40:48.a fair income tax system. But Nick Clegg has a problem, that unlike
:40:48. > :40:52.William 1st, he hasn't conquered the realm. Any wealth tax would
:40:52. > :40:55.need Conservative support to become coalition policy. Today, the
:40:55. > :41:01.Chancellor, seemed less than enthusiastic about the idea. I do
:41:01. > :41:05.want the wealthy to make their fair contribution to reducing the public
:41:05. > :41:09.deficit, that is why I have increased property taxes on very
:41:09. > :41:13.expensive homes. We also don't want to drive away the wealth creators
:41:13. > :41:17.and the business leaders and entrepeneurs, who will create the
:41:17. > :41:25.job, and help move the economy forward. We need the balance, the
:41:25. > :41:33.wealthy need to pay more, but let's not drive away the wealth creators.
:41:33. > :41:38.Unlike the Lib Dem's mansion tax, a levy on property over �2 million,
:41:38. > :41:42.this new tax has less detail, which has led many to suggest it is more
:41:42. > :41:48.about raising support for the Lib Dem conference, rather than raising
:41:48. > :41:52.money for the Exchequer. We have seen this in the past and now, in
:41:52. > :41:57.2009 Gordon Brown was about to lose the last general election, he
:41:57. > :42:01.brought forward the rate of tax. You have Nick Clegg suffering
:42:01. > :42:05.problems with his party, less than impressed than they could be,
:42:05. > :42:12.suddenly Nick Clegg wants to tax the rich to win favour whizz own
:42:12. > :42:19.party. He's chasing headlines, trying to pla Kate some very angry
:42:19. > :42:23.-- Placate some very angry Lib Dem supporters, who are very
:42:23. > :42:27.exasperated, that he's doing the total opposite in Government than
:42:27. > :42:31.what he has saying. What could the wealth tax look like, the world is
:42:31. > :42:36.more complex than the conquerer's day, then poking around someone's
:42:36. > :42:41.barn for oxen and grain was all that was required. Today, poking
:42:41. > :42:45.around the assets of the superwealthy is a lot harder?
:42:45. > :42:52.concern is how many people will take flight. That has happened
:42:52. > :42:56.recently, the Government introduced an ex-pat tax, from 2008, non-
:42:56. > :43:00.domicile people, that is for, quite a few people left the country. We
:43:00. > :43:04.can see in France, where Monsieur Hollande is proposing to increase
:43:04. > :43:09.taxes to 75%, a lot of wealthy people are looking to buy property
:43:09. > :43:14.in the UK, and invest here generally. If we start introducing
:43:14. > :43:19.wealth taxes, again, we may lose the benefit of those wealthy people,
:43:19. > :43:25.who eat in our restaurants, and stay in our hotels, and generally
:43:25. > :43:29.contribute to our spending. evidence is not that if you had a
:43:29. > :43:38.fairer wealth taxation system you would be driving people away. Parts
:43:38. > :43:40.of the states have half a per cent of people's assets taken as tax.
:43:40. > :43:45.France has introduced a system, people haven't been leaving the
:43:45. > :43:52.states and France because of that. People understand that not just
:43:52. > :43:56.income, but also wealth, is a way of assessing how well you are doing.
:43:56. > :43:59.Does Mr Clegg expect to conquer the options of his coalition colleagues,
:43:59. > :44:04.or is this more about keeping his own party happy, trying to
:44:04. > :44:11.reconnect with the voters who the polls suggest have deserted the
:44:11. > :44:15.party. In short, trying to avert his own political doomsday.
:44:15. > :44:19.Funnily enough, no Lib Dems inside the Government were available to
:44:19. > :44:22.speak about this. But David Grossman is here. Will it ever
:44:22. > :44:26.become policy? It might at some point in the future. At the moment
:44:27. > :44:30.it look like the main job of this interview Nick Clegg gave to the
:44:30. > :44:32.Guardian, was to introduce the main theme of the Liberal Democrat
:44:32. > :44:37.conference, which starts in three weeks time. Why do I say that. If
:44:37. > :44:42.we look at the first page of of the adwend da of the Lib Dem conference,
:44:42. > :44:46.there is the slogan "fairer tax in tough times", perhaps you might ask
:44:46. > :44:49.that he will unveil a fully formed policy at that conference. It is
:44:50. > :44:54.only a few days ago the Liberal Democrats introduced a consultation
:44:54. > :45:01.paper, which they described as the first stage of a new tax policy. In
:45:01. > :45:08.it there is a section on tax rises, and the consultation date is
:45:08. > :45:11.October this year. They might be contributing to it? If they have a
:45:11. > :45:14.fully formed policy, if they have T the reason you are talking to me
:45:14. > :45:17.rather than Liberal Democrats, at the moment there is no questions
:45:17. > :45:20.than answers on the policies. this about positioning Nick Clegg
:45:20. > :45:23.and the coalition? There is a job they think they are doing. They
:45:23. > :45:26.will be very plos today see large number of Conservatives coming out
:45:27. > :45:31.to see -- pleased to see a large number of Conservatives coming out
:45:31. > :45:34.on the right side. The most gleeful are Labour, they say it gives them
:45:34. > :45:44.an opportunity to look at Liberal Democrats supporting the budget
:45:44. > :45:44.
:45:44. > :46:27.Apology for the loss of subtitles for 42 seconds
:46:27. > :46:31.that cut the top rate of tax. That is all from Newsnight tonight,
:46:31. > :46:41.we will leave you with more highlights from the Paralympics
:46:41. > :47:09.
:47:09. > :47:14.Opening Ceremony. From everyone We had to put up with more soaking
:47:14. > :47:17.rain in places through today, tomorrow more of us will escape dry.
:47:17. > :47:22.There are still some showers around, by the afternoon they are focused
:47:22. > :47:26.on central and eastern parts of the UK, to the north and west. Northern
:47:26. > :47:30.England having a fine afternoon, temperatures just into the mid-
:47:30. > :47:33.teens, the odd sharp shower across the Midlands. For East Anglia and
:47:33. > :47:37.the south-east, a few thunderstorms around for a while. Late into the
:47:37. > :47:40.evening they will fade away as it becoming mainly dry. It is dry for
:47:40. > :47:43.the afternoon. In south-west England and Wales. One or two
:47:43. > :47:47.morning showers, into the afternoon we have broken cloud, some sunshine
:47:47. > :47:51.coming through. But again, that noticable north or north-westerly
:47:51. > :47:55.breeze, which for Northern Ireland, despite the sunshine, will told
:47:55. > :48:01.temperatures down into the mid- teens, and a similar picture across
:48:01. > :48:11.Scotland. You have the sunshine to compensate, and no fierce downpours
:48:11. > :48:26.