0:00:00 > 0:00:06Tonight, an immigration crackdown on British universities over
0:00:06 > 0:00:10possibly bogus students. London Metropolitan's mishandling of the
0:00:10 > 0:00:13rules, means more than 2,000 non-EU students could be thrown out of the
0:00:13 > 0:00:18country in two months. Is this measure a proportionate Government
0:00:18 > 0:00:22response, or an attack on one of Britain's biggest export industries.
0:00:22 > 0:00:25There is danger by choosing a single target of overall net
0:00:25 > 0:00:29migration, the Government has chosen a target they will never hit,
0:00:29 > 0:00:32and in trying to hit it they will do a lot of damage to the economy
0:00:33 > 0:00:39and the university sector. We will discuss with educationalists, and
0:00:39 > 0:00:42business alum nigh. The Mark of Caisn massacre, after South African
0:00:42 > 0:00:46security forces shot dead 34 striking miners, the authorities
0:00:46 > 0:00:50have brought charges, but against the miners themselves. Coming to
0:00:50 > 0:00:54the skies and studios near you, drones of all shapes and sizes,
0:00:54 > 0:00:58like this little monster, what are they looking at and why? With a
0:00:58 > 0:01:06huge increase in the amount of private companies, and institutions,
0:01:06 > 0:01:16able to use drones over our heads, who is going to stop people from
0:01:16 > 0:01:17
0:01:18 > 0:01:22watching us on our own property, and even in our own homes. There is
0:01:22 > 0:01:27no doubt that getting tough on illegal immigrants, including bogus
0:01:27 > 0:01:34students, is a very popular move for any British Government in
0:01:34 > 0:01:39recent years. But is revoking the license of the Metropolitan
0:01:39 > 0:01:43University to have foreign students the right way to proceed.
0:01:43 > 0:01:49Universities should check all classes and make sure all students
0:01:49 > 0:01:53have the right to be here in the first place, but with 2,000
0:01:53 > 0:02:02students facing a ticket home, is this the right response. And how do
0:02:02 > 0:02:09we encourage foreign students to come here and pay university fees.
0:02:09 > 0:02:15The English language is imbecile. Why do you say that? Because, all
0:02:15 > 0:02:20the people who say they speak English, they speak with accents so
0:02:20 > 0:02:25different. There was a time, many decades ago, when we thought
0:02:25 > 0:02:31teaching foreigners the vagaries of English, could only be a good thing.
0:02:31 > 0:02:33But in multiethnic London, 80 years on, we are not always so sure.
0:02:33 > 0:02:39London Metropolitan University, which attract as high number of
0:02:39 > 0:02:43students from abroad, has been told it can no longer accept them. The
0:02:43 > 0:02:512,500 already here will be deported, unless another college will take
0:02:51 > 0:02:56them on. It is very difficult, because I'm to submit my thesis
0:02:56 > 0:03:03tomorrow. Only to be told that the license has been revoked, and that
0:03:03 > 0:03:07I have to leave the country within 60 days. That is very unfortunate.
0:03:07 > 0:03:11Today, students were protesting in Downing Street at the Government's
0:03:11 > 0:03:15decision to punish their university. After the UK Border Agency found
0:03:15 > 0:03:19many foreign students there weren't turning up to lectures, couldn't
0:03:19 > 0:03:25speak enough English, or didn't have permission to stay in Britain.
0:03:25 > 0:03:32But legitimate students will be affected too. After spending
0:03:32 > 0:03:37thousands of pounds with this university and he they came all the
0:03:37 > 0:03:42way from their home countries, their family had dreams, they had
0:03:42 > 0:03:47dreams, their friends there had dreams for these students, so
0:03:47 > 0:03:50everything is going in vain now. London Metropolitan, may be the
0:03:50 > 0:03:55first university to be tarted in this way, but the Government is
0:03:55 > 0:03:58sending out a clear warning to others. Rooting out bogus students
0:03:58 > 0:04:05helps reduce the number of foreigners studying in the UK. And
0:04:05 > 0:04:09that, for the Government, is one of the best ways of bringing down
0:04:09 > 0:04:17overall immigration, one of its key commitments. Of the 566,000 people
0:04:17 > 0:04:26estimated to have migrated to the UK in the year to December 2011,
0:04:26 > 0:04:31about 2323,000, or 41% came to -- 2 32,000, or 41%, came to study. The
0:04:31 > 0:04:35number of non-EU visas has increased dramatically. Now, in the
0:04:35 > 0:04:40last year, there has been a big drop of 21% in the number of
0:04:40 > 0:04:44student visas granted. But will that really help the Government
0:04:45 > 0:04:48achieve its aims? Overseas students are the biggest single category of
0:04:48 > 0:04:52immigration. But they are also very different from other types, they
0:04:52 > 0:04:56are much less likely to stay here. If you ask people what they really
0:04:56 > 0:04:59understand by immigration, a student who comes here for a year
0:04:59 > 0:05:03or two and then goes home isn't what they are worried about. There
0:05:03 > 0:05:07is a real danger by choosing a single target of overall net
0:05:07 > 0:05:10migration, which includes students as well as people who come here to
0:05:10 > 0:05:14work and family and everything else, the Government has ended up
0:05:14 > 0:05:18choosing a tart they will never hit, and in trying to hit it they will
0:05:18 > 0:05:22do a lot of damage to the economy and the university sector.
0:05:22 > 0:05:27official figures show that 20% of students do stay on illegally,
0:05:27 > 0:05:32changing their status by marrying, or finding work. Students form by
0:05:32 > 0:05:36far the largest proportion of those who stay on here for long-term
0:05:36 > 0:05:42migration in one form or another. There is something like half a
0:05:42 > 0:05:46million, including student visitors, who come here each year. If 20% of
0:05:46 > 0:05:51those stay on beyond five years, that makes a lot of people. We also
0:05:51 > 0:05:56know that there are those who stay on illegally. So it's, without
0:05:56 > 0:05:59question, the number of students who become long-term immigrants is
0:05:59 > 0:06:02significant, and absolutely right that the Government does something
0:06:02 > 0:06:06about it. The Government's now removed the automatic right for
0:06:06 > 0:06:11students to stay on and seek work after their courses. But
0:06:11 > 0:06:17immigration is falling only very slowly. Net migration in the year
0:06:18 > 0:06:23to December 2010, was 25 2,000. Today we learned that figure
0:06:23 > 0:06:28dropped to 216,000 the following year. A fall of 36,000. But the
0:06:29 > 0:06:34Government still is a long way from achieving its target of a maximum
0:06:35 > 0:06:38of 100,000 by 2015. But even if it can succeed, isn't it odd to reduce
0:06:38 > 0:06:42overseas student numbers when Britain is also trying to sell the
0:06:42 > 0:06:46benefits of our education system. Overseas students contribute
0:06:46 > 0:06:50billions of pounds of fees to the university sector at a time when
0:06:50 > 0:06:54universities are under pressure, because of the public spending cuts,
0:06:54 > 0:06:57which we all know are inevitable. They also spend money in the
0:06:58 > 0:07:02communities where they stay. The total estimates of the economic
0:07:02 > 0:07:07benefit, not just the fees, but the money they spend, the Government's
0:07:07 > 0:07:12own estimates, in 2011, were they contribute well over �10 billion.
0:07:12 > 0:07:15Surely that won't be affected by removing bogus students? They admit
0:07:15 > 0:07:18the decision they have made today will affect genuine students and
0:07:19 > 0:07:22those who aren't genuine, they don't know which. They think it
0:07:22 > 0:07:26will be useful to have a symbol of how tough they are being. That is
0:07:26 > 0:07:29understandable from a domestic political point of view, that
0:07:29 > 0:07:35signal is interpreted differently in the countries where people are
0:07:35 > 0:07:41thinking about coming to the UK or another country to study. Here in
0:07:41 > 0:07:51North London, certainly, the welcome students once experienced
0:07:51 > 0:07:55
0:07:55 > 0:08:00has run cold. We have our guests here. A former student of
0:08:00 > 0:08:05university in London, and creator of Cobra beer.
0:08:05 > 0:08:10And my other guests. Were you aware of problems when you were teaching
0:08:10 > 0:08:19there? There are always student who is didn't show at all, or who came
0:08:19 > 0:08:23infrequently. I was pretty much told by the programme director to
0:08:23 > 0:08:27assume that students that didn't show up at all hadn't entered the
0:08:27 > 0:08:35country, or there was nothing you could do about students not
0:08:35 > 0:08:39attending very much. Often for issues of work. Did you think that
0:08:39 > 0:08:43maybe they had entered the country, but weren't attending lessons
0:08:43 > 0:08:48because they were bogus students? There didn't seem to be any way of
0:08:48 > 0:08:53checking it or any will to check it. The UK Border Agency has increased
0:08:53 > 0:08:57the requirements since then. But obviously, London Metropolitan,
0:08:57 > 0:09:03hasn't met those requirements. That is why the current situation is as
0:09:03 > 0:09:09it is. But I don't think it is just London Metropolitan University, my
0:09:09 > 0:09:12experience elsewhere in other London universities was similar.
0:09:12 > 0:09:16that note, we will move on, was it your sense that these students,
0:09:16 > 0:09:19whether they turned up or not, had paid. In other words, the
0:09:19 > 0:09:28university got the money, and was therefore reasonably happy whether
0:09:28 > 0:09:34they turned up or not? You only had to pay the first part of it. To be
0:09:34 > 0:09:38on the books. In other words, I suppose, what we're hearing there
0:09:38 > 0:09:42is, that it is possible to abuse the system, it is possible to come
0:09:42 > 0:09:46in. I wonder whether you feel it is kind of unfair for 2,000 students,
0:09:46 > 0:09:51many of whom are here, presumably, perfectly legally, and in the
0:09:52 > 0:09:56middle of degree courses, to have their whole future wrecked on this?
0:09:56 > 0:09:59We have gone beyond the state of it might be possible, we have a
0:09:59 > 0:10:03serious problem here. We have two issues, firstly, how the rules
0:10:03 > 0:10:05operate against those who are genuine students is unsatisfactory,
0:10:05 > 0:10:13and unacceptable. Clearly the Government needs to change that.
0:10:13 > 0:10:15The idea that there are people who are participating in courses, who
0:10:15 > 0:10:22are progressing their degrees, or tickets already bought to come here
0:10:22 > 0:10:27for next year, and going to be refused, is not acceptable. But,
0:10:27 > 0:10:32likewise, this university, and maybe, other universities, have got
0:10:32 > 0:10:35some answering to. Do the spotlight shouldn't just be what the
0:10:35 > 0:10:40Government is up to, it should be up to what the universities are
0:10:40 > 0:10:43doing. This university must have done more damage to the position of
0:10:43 > 0:10:48British universities seeking overseas students than any other
0:10:48 > 0:10:52action you could imagine. We z I should make clear, we did ask the
0:10:52 > 0:10:56Government if they would like to attend. Rather like some of your
0:10:56 > 0:11:00students, they decided not to bother. Do you think London Met is
0:11:00 > 0:11:03toxic and it is a real problem for the whole system. Why would anyone
0:11:03 > 0:11:07want to go there from abroad? don't recognise the account that
0:11:07 > 0:11:12was given by Linda, and she was decribing a situation which pre-
0:11:12 > 0:11:17dated some quite significant changes to the Border Agency rules.
0:11:17 > 0:11:19Now the standards are extremely high. Not at London Met, because
0:11:20 > 0:11:23they didn't enforce it? I can't comment on the circumstances, we
0:11:23 > 0:11:27simply do not know what was going on there. Are you saying there is
0:11:27 > 0:11:32no other university in this country, where there may be quite a lot of
0:11:32 > 0:11:36bogus students who don't turn up for lectures, and just come here as
0:11:36 > 0:11:40immigrants? There is no suggestion of universities taking on bogus
0:11:40 > 0:11:44students. At Universities UK, we have made it clear we want to work
0:11:44 > 0:11:48with the Government to eliminate any problems in the system. If
0:11:49 > 0:11:52there are bogus students, they have to leave. What is the problem
0:11:52 > 0:11:55today? We simply don't know the facts as to what was happening in
0:11:55 > 0:12:02London Metropolitan Police university, and the circumstances
0:12:02 > 0:12:05that -- London Metropolitan, and the circumstances that Linda
0:12:05 > 0:12:11outlined pre-dates this issues today. What happened yesterday and
0:12:11 > 0:12:13today, is Government's decision has impacted on large numbers of
0:12:13 > 0:12:17completely legitimate, genuine international students, that is
0:12:17 > 0:12:20what is so distressing. Do you agree with a bit of that, it is
0:12:20 > 0:12:23clearly unfair to some of these students? I think Nicola is
0:12:23 > 0:12:29wriggling here, I think the universities have a case to answer.
0:12:29 > 0:12:32The actions of this university were probably born, out when more
0:12:32 > 0:12:36detailed work is done from the sample taken. If something like a
0:12:36 > 0:12:42quarter of the students are actually illegals, then there is a
0:12:42 > 0:12:45real case to answer, and if I was a student living abroad, thinking
0:12:45 > 0:12:49where I would want my children to come, I certainly wouldn't want
0:12:49 > 0:12:53them to come to university that is staffed by large nufpls of students
0:12:53 > 0:13:01breaking the law to -- numbers of students breaking the law to be
0:13:02 > 0:13:04here. I total low agree, if there are students -- totally agree, if
0:13:04 > 0:13:08there illegitimate students then that is something we need to do
0:13:08 > 0:13:12something about it. What are the universities going to do to put
0:13:12 > 0:13:17their house in order? You could have been one of these guys,
0:13:17 > 0:13:24couldn't you? You were at London Met? I was legally here. Some of
0:13:24 > 0:13:28these are legally here? I was here, I spent a year at what is now
0:13:28 > 0:13:32London Metropolitan University, I then graduated in law at Cambridge
0:13:32 > 0:13:35University, three generations of my family have been educated in
0:13:35 > 0:13:38Britain, my grandmother, my mother, and now me. This is something that
0:13:38 > 0:13:41goes along the reputation of this country having the finest higher
0:13:41 > 0:13:45education in the world, alongside the United States. We spend a
0:13:45 > 0:13:47fraction of what the United States spends on higher education. This
0:13:47 > 0:13:51Government is decimating higher education in this country. First
0:13:51 > 0:13:54they pulled the funding to the universities. Then they triple the
0:13:54 > 0:13:59fees for the domestic student, and now they are hitting the
0:13:59 > 0:14:03international students as well. Who make up 10% of your students.
0:14:03 > 0:14:06Academics at Oxford and Cambridge, 30% are foreign. Immigration cap
0:14:06 > 0:14:10that is are cruel, immigration figure that is includes students.
0:14:10 > 0:14:15We all know that students, on the whole, the vast majority, return to
0:14:15 > 0:14:20their countries. We don't know that. We know that as an absolute fact.
0:14:20 > 0:14:22Well over 80% of the students return to their countries. The
0:14:23 > 0:14:26challenge here is the UK Border Agency are the people who don't
0:14:26 > 0:14:30know how many illegal immigrants are in this country. That figure
0:14:30 > 0:14:35comes from the Home Office survey, what that Home Office survey showed,
0:14:36 > 0:14:41we know that 20% do go home. They couldn't account for. 20%? 20%,
0:14:42 > 0:14:48they have proof, they do not know, that survey shows, they do not know
0:14:48 > 0:14:51what happens to the other 80%. They may all go. They don't know the
0:14:51 > 0:14:55number of illegal immigrants. have argued about immigration
0:14:55 > 0:15:01figures for years, without getting to the point. The point tonight,
0:15:01 > 0:15:05presumably, is somebody like this, an entrepeneur, good for this
0:15:05 > 0:15:09country, is being quick kicked out with all the others. It is a waste
0:15:09 > 0:15:12the opportunity and for future generations? What a way to do it in
0:15:12 > 0:15:17a way, where you have been sending out a signal. I have been the
0:15:17 > 0:15:21founding chairman of the UK Business Council, in India they are
0:15:21 > 0:15:24saying, Britain doesn't want us. The number of Indians applying to
0:15:24 > 0:15:27British universities is plummeting. The perception is becoming a
0:15:27 > 0:15:31reality. That is terrible for universities isn't it?
0:15:31 > 0:15:39concerned with the very interrelated crossover with labour
0:15:39 > 0:15:44market issues. This is students coming only to work, working while
0:15:44 > 0:15:47they are here, and post graduate work. These have big effects on the
0:15:47 > 0:15:50labour market. This should be considered in the whole thing.
0:15:50 > 0:15:54you think the message, mentioned there, is actually going to get
0:15:54 > 0:15:59through, that people in India will say, no matter what my father,
0:15:59 > 0:16:05grandfather or mother did, I won't go there, I won't risk it? We are
0:16:05 > 0:16:07observing that. There are drops in Indian post graduate students
0:16:07 > 0:16:11wanting to study science and engineering, those numbers are
0:16:11 > 0:16:16going down. We are very concerned about this. If I can pick up on the
0:16:16 > 0:16:19point that international students are taking away jobs. There is no
0:16:19 > 0:16:22evidence that is actually happening. All the evidence suggests that
0:16:22 > 0:16:27international students bring far more to this country, and there has
0:16:27 > 0:16:30been a recent study, for example, by Oxford Economics, looking at the
0:16:30 > 0:16:34contribution international students have made at the University of
0:16:34 > 0:16:38Exeter. They bring far more and create more jobs than they take
0:16:38 > 0:16:42away. That is the evidence. Nicola, what we surely want is a
0:16:42 > 0:16:47policy where we welcome people who legitimately come to this country
0:16:47 > 0:16:51to pursue their studies, and abide by the rules. What we do not want,
0:16:51 > 0:16:55surely, is to find ourselves in a position, where we are defending a
0:16:55 > 0:16:58university like this, that already has a track record. Under the
0:16:58 > 0:17:03labour Government they had to pay back �37 million, because they
0:17:03 > 0:17:07claimed for students they didn't actually have. So this is tax-
0:17:07 > 0:17:12payers' money, this is part of the family of universities, that is
0:17:12 > 0:17:17actually taking our image abroad and behaving like this. That is the
0:17:17 > 0:17:22past, over the last three years, under the new Vice Chancellor, they
0:17:22 > 0:17:25have made huge steps, and they will now be short of �30 million. I was
0:17:25 > 0:17:29Chancellor, I was Chancellor of what is now West London University,
0:17:29 > 0:17:34I was board of the governors for five years, and Vice Chancellor for
0:17:34 > 0:17:40five years, I know how much our foreign students help with the
0:17:40 > 0:17:44funding of the university. There is so many benefits. �8 billion.
0:17:44 > 0:17:48not disputing any of that. We have had a university that took tax-
0:17:48 > 0:17:52payers' money to the tune of �37 million, by claiming to have
0:17:52 > 0:18:01students they didn't have. That is the past history. That is nothing
0:18:01 > 0:18:05to do with this debate. We are now into today's evidence, about the
0:18:05 > 0:18:08same university has real problems over bogus students This is the
0:18:08 > 0:18:13problem about this debate. There is so many confusing arguments brought
0:18:13 > 0:18:16into the mix. It is confusing, it is confusing the public, it is
0:18:16 > 0:18:21confusing everyone. That is historical, and although I don't
0:18:21 > 0:18:26disagree with anything you have just said about the history, it is
0:18:26 > 0:18:28completely irrelevant to our discussion today. We want to hear
0:18:28 > 0:18:31everybody. Nicola is absolutely right. We are competing in the
0:18:31 > 0:18:35world, we are competing with the United States, we are competing
0:18:35 > 0:18:39with Canada, we are competing with Australia in specific terms, they
0:18:39 > 0:18:45do not, they categorise students under a separate immigration,
0:18:45 > 0:18:49temporary immigration. Do you agree with that? Absolutely, if you ask
0:18:49 > 0:18:53David Willetts if we should put them in a separate category. Some
0:18:53 > 0:18:56nay be staying on the whole or not, but the Government would solve the
0:18:56 > 0:19:02problem. Is this a problem caused by setting these targets, do you
0:19:02 > 0:19:09think? No, the targets have been set, and they were overwhelmingably
0:19:09 > 0:19:13supported by voters of all parties. What we have here -- overwhelmingly
0:19:13 > 0:19:17supported by voters of all parties. We have a problem of taking our
0:19:17 > 0:19:22image abroad, and parents signing up for that university and children
0:19:23 > 0:19:27to come here, and look at how the university behaves. The image now
0:19:27 > 0:19:32is Britain doesn't want foreign students, weed need them for the
0:19:32 > 0:19:37economy. I think it is a hopeless argument, this. Why not have the EU
0:19:37 > 0:19:43India-free trade agreement out in the open. We are trying. Why not
0:19:43 > 0:19:48the labour issues out. That is another issue. The only thing India
0:19:48 > 0:19:53is asking for labour entry. We will be looking at control of the skies
0:19:53 > 0:19:57soon. The Newsnight drone is still keeping an eye out on proceedings.
0:19:58 > 0:20:02There it is, in all its glory. Tonight we are finding out how
0:20:03 > 0:20:06variations on the drones used to attack hideouts on the Taliban in
0:20:06 > 0:20:13Pakistan and Afghanistan are coming to this country, indeed this very
0:20:13 > 0:20:17studio. Now, as that demented midge dies a
0:20:17 > 0:20:20death over there. Before all, that in the days of apartheid, before
0:20:20 > 0:20:24South Africa became a democracy, the doctrine of common purpose,
0:20:24 > 0:20:27gave people the means to lock up people it considered to be
0:20:27 > 0:20:31troublemakers. Now that very same law is being used to charge the 270
0:20:31 > 0:20:34miners part of a Marikana mine demonstration. At which police
0:20:34 > 0:20:38killed 34 of their number. Charging the striking miners in connection
0:20:38 > 0:20:45with the deaths of men shot by the police, is stirring up a political
0:20:45 > 0:20:49storm in South Africa. Set the scene for us, what was all
0:20:49 > 0:20:54this about initially? The miners have been on strike since 10 if of
0:20:54 > 0:20:59August, looking for a tripping -- August 10th, looking for a tripling
0:20:59 > 0:21:04of their wages. This dispute has become increasingly violent. There
0:21:04 > 0:21:07was a series of incidents in which ten people were killed, including
0:21:07 > 0:21:11two policemen, allegedly by striking miners. Two weeks ago
0:21:11 > 0:21:15today, the incident you mentioned, in which 34 striking miners were
0:21:16 > 0:21:19killed by the police. They gathered on top of a rock, they were
0:21:19 > 0:21:23brandishing called traditional weapons, spheres and macheties,
0:21:23 > 0:21:26they came charging down towards the police lines, the police opened
0:21:26 > 0:21:29fire. It was very clear what happened. It was captured on film.
0:21:29 > 0:21:34Today there are allegations of some of those killed were actually
0:21:34 > 0:21:37hunted down by the police and killed in cold blood at very close
0:21:37 > 0:21:46range. Given all that and the allegations against the police and
0:21:46 > 0:21:49the film evidence, what happened today. It was extraordinary, one
0:21:49 > 0:21:53might expect charges against the police. Not yet, because inquiries
0:21:53 > 0:21:58are still going on. But today the strike miners, many of the striking
0:21:58 > 0:22:02miners were actually charged with the murder of their colleagues.
0:22:02 > 0:22:05Under the called "common purpose doctrine". This was an
0:22:05 > 0:22:09extraordinary law, which means if you have a gathering, and some of
0:22:09 > 0:22:12them are armed, and they are confronting the police, and there
0:22:12 > 0:22:18are then fatalities, those within that gathering can actually be
0:22:18 > 0:22:23charged with murder, regardless of who caused the killings. This is a
0:22:23 > 0:22:27bizarre law that was used a lot during the apartheid era. Often
0:22:27 > 0:22:31against the ANC. It is extraordinary it should be used
0:22:31 > 0:22:35today. What are the implications of what is quite an extraordinary
0:22:35 > 0:22:39moment for the new South Africa? is an extraordinary moment, the
0:22:39 > 0:22:46implications are enormous. This is seen as much more than a killing
0:22:46 > 0:22:50and mine dispute. The firebrand former leader of the ANC youth
0:22:50 > 0:22:54league, has called it madness, I met him last week, he was at the
0:22:55 > 0:23:00Police Station in the mine trying to bring charges against the police.
0:23:00 > 0:23:05It goes beyond politics. There is increasing concern within the
0:23:05 > 0:23:10country as what is seen as a divide between ordinary people, and the
0:23:10 > 0:23:13ANC, seen by many as elite, and not delivering after 18 years in power.
0:23:13 > 0:23:16The killings have become symptomatic of that dispute.
0:23:17 > 0:23:20President Zuma is up for re- election at the ANC conference
0:23:20 > 0:23:28later this year, and it's the dispute that is increasingly
0:23:28 > 0:23:32bringing in other parties, such as the churches.
0:23:32 > 0:23:35Joining us from Johannesburg is the Methodist minister, who has been at
0:23:36 > 0:23:43the site and spoken to the families of the miners. What are the
0:23:43 > 0:23:49families of the men saying to you today? I haven't met directly with
0:23:49 > 0:23:53any of the families. I have, when we went to Marikana, we went to the
0:23:53 > 0:23:58actual site of the massacre. Then we met with the community. I spoke
0:23:58 > 0:24:03to the community. We then went to the hospital, where there are still
0:24:03 > 0:24:07people recovering from their wounds. And then we went to the police
0:24:07 > 0:24:12station. In all places we prayed with the people. But, yesterday we
0:24:12 > 0:24:19had a memorial service in the church, and I think that, first of
0:24:19 > 0:24:24all, there seems to be, in the community, deep anxiety about on
0:24:24 > 0:24:32going threats, on going harassment, on going vulnerability after what
0:24:32 > 0:24:37happened. And actual that predated the massacre. There is a deep,
0:24:37 > 0:24:41profound sense of grief. I mean, I actually think that the whole
0:24:41 > 0:24:47country should be mourning. Because this is not just a private matter
0:24:47 > 0:24:52that has happened on a mine in some place. It actually affects the
0:24:52 > 0:24:56entire reputation of every South African. Do you worry, and do the
0:24:56 > 0:25:06people you talked today in the community worry, that one result of
0:25:06 > 0:25:07
0:25:07 > 0:25:12this may be more violence? I have no doubt about that, I think the
0:25:12 > 0:25:17imagination of some of the workers in this country has been spark.
0:25:17 > 0:25:21Particularly by this incident. It has underscored the huge disparity
0:25:21 > 0:25:25that there is between the haves and the have-nots in this country. And
0:25:25 > 0:25:31all sorts of allegations around greed and corruption and
0:25:31 > 0:25:35overspending, and non-delivery of services. A whole plethora of
0:25:35 > 0:25:39issues that now face an emerging democracy. What do you make, and
0:25:39 > 0:25:45what do you think other people make of the use of this common purpose
0:25:45 > 0:25:53law, which, I know many people thought had been utterly
0:25:53 > 0:26:00discredited in the past? I'm not surprised. For me it is a legal
0:26:00 > 0:26:07trick. Particularly, in view of the fact, that for the actual killing
0:26:07 > 0:26:11of the 34 people at Marikana, there certainly was motive, I have seen
0:26:12 > 0:26:17an e-mail, which exposes the policeman that was burnt, and the
0:26:17 > 0:26:24policeman hacked to death. I think anybody who sees that footage would
0:26:24 > 0:26:30understand the vitriol in the police, around the violation of
0:26:30 > 0:26:35their rights. But, and so there is very strong motive for what now is
0:26:35 > 0:26:39being described as murder, by the police, of those who were shot.
0:26:39 > 0:26:45Most of them in the back, as they were clearly running away from an
0:26:45 > 0:26:51assault on them. We mustn't forget that what predated this shooting,
0:26:51 > 0:26:59was the firing of teargas and rubber bullets at those who were on
0:26:59 > 0:27:09the mountain outcrop. Actually forcing people through the only
0:27:09 > 0:27:10
0:27:10 > 0:27:20aperture that was available, straight into the line of fire. So,
0:27:20 > 0:27:22
0:27:22 > 0:27:26the profound violence we are seeing here, as a kind of show of force,
0:27:26 > 0:27:31has left most South Africans stunned that this could happen 18
0:27:31 > 0:27:36years into a free South Africa. Thank you.
0:27:36 > 0:27:39Now, they might be most familiar to you from science fiction movies, or
0:27:39 > 0:27:44perhaps as high-tech weapons in the skies over Iraq or Afghanistan.
0:27:45 > 0:27:50Over the next decade expect to see drones coming to the skies near you.
0:27:50 > 0:27:54Vast sums are being spent on civilian drone projects, from
0:27:54 > 0:27:58police surveillance to amateur photography. In the United States
0:27:58 > 0:28:02Congress has told the space regulator to open up America to
0:28:02 > 0:28:04drones by 2015, we could follow suit by the end of the decade. Are
0:28:05 > 0:28:14we ready for a world where thousands of drones are patrolling
0:28:15 > 0:28:23
0:28:23 > 0:28:28our skies. They are the eyes and ears of the Armed Forces. A decade
0:28:29 > 0:28:35ago, less than 5% of US military aircraft were unmanned, now 40%
0:28:36 > 0:28:39have no pilot on board. Many think the Typhoon, and the 5-35, will be
0:28:39 > 0:28:44the last conventional fighters ever flown by the RAF. But the role of
0:28:44 > 0:28:49the drone is now changing. British skies are about to open up to
0:28:49 > 0:28:58thousands of civilian drones. Who is watching the drone operators,
0:28:58 > 0:29:02how safe is this new technology? Next to the army draining zone on
0:29:02 > 0:29:07Salisbury Plain, is a glimpse -- training zone on the Salisbury
0:29:07 > 0:29:12Plain, is a glimpse of how drones could be used in the future.
0:29:12 > 0:29:16It might not look much like the spy planes in Afghanistan, or Yemen,
0:29:16 > 0:29:23but this is one of the first commercial uses of an unmanned
0:29:23 > 0:29:26aircraft, in the UK itself. As the cost of sensors and digital
0:29:26 > 0:29:35cameras have come down, so new civilian applications are starting
0:29:35 > 0:29:39to become possible. These lightweight drones fly by
0:29:39 > 0:29:43themselves, using satellite tracking to glide from point to
0:29:43 > 0:29:47point. It is going to be taking many thousands of pictures, and
0:29:47 > 0:29:53those pictures, we will know the precise location of each one, it is
0:29:53 > 0:29:59possible to pull those photographs together. The data is then
0:29:59 > 0:30:04analysesed, to find -- analysed, to find out how well crops are going
0:30:04 > 0:30:09and if more fertiliser is needed. It is high-tech stuff, and an
0:30:09 > 0:30:13industry this country could do with leading. It is a very exportable
0:30:13 > 0:30:16technology, in the agriculture domain, you can scaling up for some
0:30:16 > 0:30:21of the planes in the big fields you might have in Canada, for example.
0:30:21 > 0:30:24If you are looking at other areas of technology, it can be in
0:30:24 > 0:30:28construction, filming, environmental monitoring. It is
0:30:28 > 0:30:33almost endless the sorts of applications of real benefit, and
0:30:33 > 0:30:37not intrusive and not invasive. Endless possibilities, maybe, but a
0:30:37 > 0:30:45small, lightweight drones as they get cheaper and more powerful,
0:30:45 > 0:30:50serious questions are being asked about surveillance and privacy.
0:30:50 > 0:30:54Police forces and the emergency serves have been testing these
0:30:54 > 0:30:58small helicopter-style drones for some time now. There was a setback
0:30:58 > 0:31:04when police in Liverpool first flew their's illegally, without the
0:31:05 > 0:31:09right permission, and then managed to crash the �13,000 device into
0:31:09 > 0:31:13the river Mersey. We have seen this document from the Association of
0:31:13 > 0:31:17Chief Police Officers, which sets out the precise technical
0:31:17 > 0:31:20specifications for these vehicles, the type of camera used. In a
0:31:20 > 0:31:25rather strange section of the document, which reads more like a
0:31:25 > 0:31:34bad crime novel than a police briefing. It sets out how senior
0:31:34 > 0:31:43officers think these devices could be used in the future.
0:31:43 > 0:31:47The unmanned aerial vehicle arrives, the area is extremely quiet, and
0:31:47 > 0:31:54the only thing move is the PC. Weather conditions are good, cloud
0:31:54 > 0:31:57cover is high and light. The launch goes as planned, PC trains the
0:31:57 > 0:32:02camera on the rear of the target property, and starts receiving
0:32:02 > 0:32:07lividy. As the front door goes in, the suspect appears out of an
0:32:07 > 0:32:12upstairs window, he jumps over a number of fences into a nearby
0:32:12 > 0:32:18footpath. As the suspect is running, the PC shrbgts a flight mode that
0:32:18 > 0:32:23maintain as constant distance behind the suspect. The suspect
0:32:23 > 0:32:27emerges into an area of scrubland, and is challenged and arrested by
0:32:28 > 0:32:32the dog handling unit. At the moment, anyone can fly a
0:32:32 > 0:32:37lightweight drone in the UK. If they can prove to the airspace
0:32:37 > 0:32:40regulator, the CAA, that they can do it safely. That has many privacy
0:32:40 > 0:32:44campaigners worried. Who is protecting the public's civil
0:32:44 > 0:32:50liberties and privacy, with their huge increase in the amount of
0:32:50 > 0:32:56private companies and institutions able to use drones over our heads,
0:32:56 > 0:33:00who is going to stop people from watching us on our own property,
0:33:00 > 0:33:03and even our own homes. The Civil Aviation Authority have made it
0:33:03 > 0:33:08very clear, it is not within their remit, they don't have the
0:33:08 > 0:33:12authority, or the resources, to monitor what people are doing with
0:33:12 > 0:33:16drones. Their remit is solely concerned with safety.
0:33:16 > 0:33:21And, with drones costing a fraction of the price of helicopters, the
0:33:21 > 0:33:27worry is, the authorities will greatly extend the use of aerial
0:33:27 > 0:33:31surveillance. A small drone was used to film clashes last year at a
0:33:31 > 0:33:36political rally in Poland. But this wasn't controlled by the police. It
0:33:36 > 0:33:40was all filmed by a private company on the demonstrators' side of the
0:33:40 > 0:33:45street. It raises new questions about who will be watching who in
0:33:45 > 0:33:50the future. The real money, though, will not be in building small
0:33:50 > 0:33:56helicopters, but in selling larger, more powerful drones. Government
0:33:56 > 0:34:01agencies want them for border security and search and rescue. And
0:34:01 > 0:34:06big freight firms, to ship cargo long distances. With this in mind,
0:34:06 > 0:34:12Congress has told the US regulator to open up all domestic airspace to
0:34:12 > 0:34:17large drones, by 2015. The UK won't be far behind. I don't think that
0:34:17 > 0:34:21the public aware about how quickly this is going to be happening. We
0:34:21 > 0:34:25are talking in the US that the skies will be open by 2015, in the
0:34:25 > 0:34:29UK, in Europe, by 2020. That's going to happen very quickly I
0:34:29 > 0:34:32don't think the public is really aware of the changes that will
0:34:32 > 0:34:37happen. It is a real failure to have a proper discussion, and
0:34:37 > 0:34:42proper debate about this. Very few parliamentarians, for instance, are
0:34:42 > 0:34:46talking about this. Here in the UK, there may have been little public
0:34:46 > 0:34:52discussion, but quietly, and behind the scenes, a serious amount of
0:34:52 > 0:35:00public money is being spent. A consortium of large defence
0:35:00 > 0:35:04companies has been given �31 million, to prove drones can safely
0:35:04 > 0:35:08sure British skies with commercial jets. One of the largest grants of
0:35:08 > 0:35:12its type ever handed out. Another �20 million of tax-payers' money
0:35:12 > 0:35:18has been spent turning this old military base, and the airspace
0:35:18 > 0:35:23around it, into the largest drone test site in Europe. This is on the
0:35:23 > 0:35:25west coast of Wales, home to the British army's new watch keeper
0:35:26 > 0:35:32drone programme. The only airport in the UK where companies are
0:35:32 > 0:35:37allowed to test that koind of unmand technology. -- kind of
0:35:38 > 0:35:42unmanned technology. The spy planes hidden away in the hangers here,
0:35:42 > 0:35:47will eventually go to Afghanistan. But this was sold to the town as
0:35:47 > 0:35:51more than a military site. It was meant to bring in hundreds of high-
0:35:51 > 0:35:55tech jobs, testing the first generation of peaceful civilian
0:35:56 > 0:36:01drones. What I object to is the military use of this base. And the
0:36:01 > 0:36:09way it was sold to the public, as a civilian exercise. The project has
0:36:09 > 0:36:13faced some fierce criticism from local residents. This man made his
0:36:13 > 0:36:17feelings clear after a recent public consultation to open up more
0:36:17 > 0:36:23airspace to drones. There are safety issues regarding drones,
0:36:23 > 0:36:26there are noise issues, but if in exchange to that we have hundreds
0:36:26 > 0:36:31of high-tech jobs, I'm sure the local people would support it. And
0:36:32 > 0:36:37so would I. Despite all the public money spent,
0:36:37 > 0:36:45most of the site here still lays empty, with few civilian customer.
0:36:45 > 0:36:49Proof, maybe, that throwing cash they at the -- at the next big
0:36:49 > 0:36:53thing, isn't always the way to go in a resomething he. This site is
0:36:53 > 0:36:58being used, it is active, and it is delivering services for people who
0:36:58 > 0:37:01need it. That will continue in the future. We have the capacity to
0:37:01 > 0:37:08accommodate more business, and that will come. This is still an
0:37:08 > 0:37:13industry in its infancy, with teething problems to overcome.
0:37:13 > 0:37:18A drone crashed next to the runway here three years ago. There were no
0:37:18 > 0:37:28juries, but it clearly spooked -- injuries, but it clearly spooked
0:37:28 > 0:37:32people living near the site. Opera singer and music teacher, Arian
0:37:32 > 0:37:38James lives a mile up the road. Because you can't get rid of the
0:37:38 > 0:37:45noise, I can't get rid of the connection between the drone and
0:37:45 > 0:37:51its purpose in life. It is a killing machine, it is spying, well
0:37:51 > 0:37:59they say this one won't be carrying bombs. But, drones do carry bombs.
0:37:59 > 0:38:03I know, I don't know, maybe this one can too. But it has cameras. I
0:38:03 > 0:38:12don't know what happens to the film footage, who is watching, what they
0:38:12 > 0:38:18do with it? It is a question. The questions raised in west Wales,
0:38:18 > 0:38:23privacy, noise, safety, are hurdles the industry itself will need to
0:38:23 > 0:38:26overcome. There are clearly some economic benefits to using unmanned
0:38:26 > 0:38:36aircraft. But first we will have to accept the idea of drones flying
0:38:36 > 0:38:38
0:38:38 > 0:38:45high above our heads in British skies. Noel Sharkey is Professor of
0:38:45 > 0:38:47Robotics, and former presenter of Robot Wars. And Kevin Warwick is
0:38:47 > 0:38:52Professor of Cybernetics at Reading University.
0:38:52 > 0:38:55Where do you think this will go in a few years? It is an exciting
0:38:55 > 0:38:58commercial opportunity now the drones we see at the moment have
0:38:58 > 0:39:02big advantages when you look at human-piloted vehicles. They can
0:39:02 > 0:39:05stay in the air for 30 hours at a time for example. But more
0:39:05 > 0:39:10importantly, perhaps going places that humans can't go. So, I think
0:39:10 > 0:39:14we are going to see things, such as at the moment in New Orleans, the
0:39:14 > 0:39:19possiblities there for drones to go and inspect and see where there are
0:39:19 > 0:39:23problems. Because of the terrible weather, you wouldn't put a plane
0:39:23 > 0:39:28up there? It could be dangerous to humans. If a drone crashs in that
0:39:28 > 0:39:34scenario, it is not such a political problem. There are no
0:39:34 > 0:39:38deaths. I think they are going to get smaller. How small? That is a
0:39:38 > 0:39:46good question, how small could they get. How small the technology can
0:39:46 > 0:39:49go. It could be the size of a bee or a wasp. Very appropriate, drones
0:39:49 > 0:39:58as bees! Presumably they will get cheaper and cheaper to run. Every
0:39:58 > 0:40:01home should have one? You can already buy them on Amazon for $220,
0:40:01 > 0:40:05you can buy the parrot drone and fly it around your neighbour's
0:40:06 > 0:40:09window. It will become very available. Lots of people are using
0:40:09 > 0:40:13them now. Real estate agents are using them, there is the drone
0:40:13 > 0:40:17journalism lab now. They are really getting everywhere. There is no
0:40:17 > 0:40:20regulation for it either. obvious problem people think about
0:40:20 > 0:40:24is the privacy problem. You are in your back garden, you are doing
0:40:24 > 0:40:29whatever you do in the back garden, and then somebody is filming you or
0:40:29 > 0:40:32recording you, or having a look through your bedroom window? That
0:40:32 > 0:40:36is the thing I'm most concerned about. You have the trade off
0:40:36 > 0:40:41tweent security. There is good uses for drones -- between security.
0:40:41 > 0:40:45There is good uses for drones, but you have individuality and autonomy
0:40:45 > 0:40:49and finding the line. I have suggested to the police, in a
0:40:49 > 0:40:54debate, that we should really look at signing drones out, wait you
0:40:54 > 0:40:59sign out a weapon. Or the way you have a phone tap, so you go to see
0:40:59 > 0:41:02a magistrate and judge, and get it out, in particular, because what we
0:41:02 > 0:41:06find up until now, there is a lot of noise with this. I hope it won't
0:41:06 > 0:41:12fly over myed head. I don't trust it. It is heading for you. There
0:41:12 > 0:41:15goes the paper review. We tried to do the paper review later?
0:41:15 > 0:41:19badly controlled. That strikes me as another problem, if these things
0:41:19 > 0:41:24are flying around, that looks great fun, I would love to play around
0:41:24 > 0:41:31with it, but it will crash. They do crash and the expensive ones?
0:41:32 > 0:41:3513 a year are crashing since 2004. When something is this size it
0:41:35 > 0:41:39doesn't matter, but the military weapons systems crash it is a
0:41:39 > 0:41:43totally different ball game. This is half way between a serious
0:41:43 > 0:41:48object and a toy. Kids could potentially build it and learn
0:41:48 > 0:41:53about the technology. That doesn't look like a very sophisticated one.
0:41:53 > 0:41:58The police ones are �40,000, they have really extremely light-weight
0:41:58 > 0:42:02cameras, very high resolution, and very, very easy to fly. You have
0:42:02 > 0:42:06device and you twist your finger on it. There is a privacy question and
0:42:06 > 0:42:09civil liberties question. We have already got cameras on every street
0:42:09 > 0:42:16corner, just about. Lots of advantages for using them. It is
0:42:16 > 0:42:22not just people, you can monitor livestock, for farmers it is very
0:42:22 > 0:42:25useful. You can inspect pipelines. That is all sorts of opportunities,
0:42:25 > 0:42:30that are problematic, when humans are a problem, they do a short
0:42:30 > 0:42:33space of time. That is why we need to sort out the issues of civil
0:42:33 > 0:42:37liberties, there is nothing wrong with drones as such, you can use
0:42:37 > 0:42:42them for rescue situations, and everything else, we mustn't let the
0:42:42 > 0:42:46PR of that distract us from the issues of civil liberties. For the
0:42:46 > 0:42:49UK the commercial opportunities are enormous. We have a fantastic
0:42:49 > 0:42:54technological base in this area. We have a good industry in this area,
0:42:54 > 0:42:59one the world's best. For us in the UK, it is a fantastic commercial
0:42:59 > 0:43:03opportunity. Then, what are you both saying about this, you have
0:43:03 > 0:43:07laid out the opportunities, but in terms, it should be regulated by
0:43:07 > 0:43:14someone. And you were saying sign it out like a police firearm?
0:43:14 > 0:43:18is one way of doing it. If I go out for a picnic, the drones aren't
0:43:18 > 0:43:21invited. I don't want strangers watching me. I'm not doing anything
0:43:21 > 0:43:26wrong. I'm a private person, I don't want to be watched by people
0:43:26 > 0:43:29when I don't need to. When this first came up, and five police
0:43:30 > 0:43:33departments, Kent and a number of others, were working with BAe
0:43:33 > 0:43:35systems and the Home Office, and the Guardian used freedom of
0:43:35 > 0:43:38information to get transactions of the meetings. They had been talking
0:43:38 > 0:43:42about using it for looking at smuggling across the channel. When
0:43:42 > 0:43:46you saw the transactions of the meetings, they were saying things
0:43:46 > 0:43:50in the transactions like this will be a good news story, rather than
0:43:50 > 0:43:54the Big Brother-type story, then you look at what the Guardian found,
0:43:54 > 0:44:01they had a whole list of things, fly posting, anti-social behaviour.
0:44:01 > 0:44:05There was a huge list of crimes, so it would be a fishing expedition.
0:44:05 > 0:44:09You could put drugs in them, no mules, all kinds of things? It will
0:44:09 > 0:44:15be very difficult to regulate them. Because anybody can buy one and fly
0:44:15 > 0:44:19one. To regulate the police is the point. I will regulate the
0:44:19 > 0:44:29newspapers, droned off the table! Let's have a look at the front
0:44:29 > 0:44:50
0:44:50 > 0:44:55pages. The Guardian and a lot of For an apology, on the 2 3rdma May,
0:44:55 > 0:44:59during an item on welfare reform, we broadcast an interview with
0:44:59 > 0:45:03Shanene Thorpe, that unfairly created the impression that she was
0:45:03 > 0:45:08unemployed and wholly dependant on benefits and living off the state
0:45:08 > 0:45:11as a lifestyle choice. She asks us to make sure that she has been in
0:45:11 > 0:45:16work-related education since leaving school. Shortly after the
0:45:16 > 0:45:19programme we published an apology on the website for the unmerited
0:45:19 > 0:45:23embarrassment and distress it may have caused her, we are happy to
0:45:23 > 0:45:33make this broadcast apology as well. That's all from Newsnight, we will
0:45:33 > 0:45:54
0:45:54 > 0:45:58watch over you one way or another tomorrow. Good night.
0:45:58 > 0:46:01Hello, after a chilly night t will feel like autumn in the morning.
0:46:01 > 0:46:04Despite the early sunshine. Already another weather system coming into
0:46:04 > 0:46:07Northern Ireland and Scotland, with outbreaks of rain and a freshening
0:46:07 > 0:46:12breeze, once again. Let's take a look at things in the afternoon.
0:46:12 > 0:46:15Drizzle late in the day in Cumbria. On the other side of the Pennine,
0:46:15 > 0:46:19hazy sunshine continuing, it is a dry, bright day in East Anglia and
0:46:19 > 0:46:23the south-east, a better day for the Paralympics events, no showers
0:46:23 > 0:46:26around too. The sun will be turning hazy. Increasing cloud in south-
0:46:26 > 0:46:33west England, maybe a bit of light drizzle here and there to end the
0:46:33 > 0:46:37day. A few spots of rain heading into western and northern counties
0:46:37 > 0:46:40of Wales late on, for Northern Ireland the rain clears and there
0:46:40 > 0:46:44may be late day brightness, the further west you are. For Scotland,
0:46:44 > 0:46:54a damp afternoon to the west and north, but the rain taking much of
0:46:54 > 0:47:07
0:47:07 > 0:47:11the day before reaching eastern A bright day across the south, and