:00:14. > :00:18.There's no easy way to say this, we made a pledge, we didn't stick to
:00:18. > :00:22.it, and for that I'm sorry. The leader of the Liberal Democrats
:00:22. > :00:29.tries to look like he's eating humble pie, the most naked
:00:29. > :00:34.political stunt in recent years was a mistake. He wants to say sorry.
:00:34. > :00:40.Haven't we heard this stuff before. Broken promises. There have been
:00:40. > :00:44.too many in the last few years, too many in the last 30 years. I will
:00:44. > :00:48.be asking the second-best known Lib Dem in Britain, whether there's any
:00:48. > :00:55.more reason to believe them this time than last.
:00:55. > :00:58.Coming soon to a Government service near you, we gain look through how
:00:58. > :01:04.the public spending savings will be made.
:01:04. > :01:08.Tonight for the first time, a further sense of cuts come down the
:01:08. > :01:15.track, and how more welfare cuts, is the pain elsewhere.
:01:15. > :01:19.If only European magazines were more deferential, they would never
:01:19. > :01:26.publish the photos. A Swedish magazine defends its decision to
:01:26. > :01:30.print the photos. What does royal biographer Andrew Morton think.
:01:30. > :01:40.And bankers say they are prepared to throw billions at Spain, we ask
:01:40. > :01:41.
:01:41. > :01:45.is Spain prepared to take the medicine in return.
:01:45. > :01:48.Well, Hallelujah, a politician has apologised for breaking his promise.
:01:48. > :01:54.The leader of the Liberal Democrats couldn't quite bring himself to put
:01:54. > :01:58.it so bluntly, but he is going to say sorry. Oddly, he's chosen the
:01:58. > :02:03.most desCid dited form of communication known to man, the --
:02:03. > :02:10.discredited form of communication known to man, the party political
:02:10. > :02:14.broadcast. He now admits he hadn't a clue what he was doing when he
:02:14. > :02:23.voted voted about student fees. The apology to be broadcast the week of
:02:23. > :02:27.their party conference is a collector's item.
:02:27. > :02:34.Stkpwhrp the symbolism of a country in a mess was no accident. At the
:02:34. > :02:37.last election Nick Clegg promised to clean things up.
:02:37. > :02:41.Broken promises. There have been too many in the last few years, too
:02:41. > :02:45.many in the last 30 years. In fact, our nation has been littered with
:02:45. > :02:48.them. Whilst all the parties are suffering from low levels of voter
:02:48. > :02:54.trust, perhaps this is why the Liberal Democrats are suffering
:02:54. > :02:58.most. That the people who voted for them feel most let down. Choose
:02:58. > :03:03.real change. Short of opening a vain and sign anything blood, Nick
:03:04. > :03:10.Clegg could -- vein and signing in blood, Nick Clegg could not have
:03:10. > :03:13.made his apology about tuition fees any stronger. The plans I believe
:03:13. > :03:18.the Labour Party and Conservative Partys are cooking up together to
:03:18. > :03:22.raise the cap on tuition fees, we will resist and vote against any
:03:22. > :03:25.lifting of the cap. The students and Liberal Democrat activists
:03:25. > :03:28.loved it, only one problem, skip forward a few months, and Nick
:03:28. > :03:37.Clegg is not only in Government, but instructing his party to vote
:03:37. > :03:41.for an increase in the cap of tuition fees from �3,000 to �9,000.
:03:41. > :03:50.Skip forward quite a few more months, to the eve of this year's
:03:50. > :03:53.Lib Dem party conference, and Nick Clegg decides he has to apologise,
:03:53. > :03:56.profusely, without his tie or jacket. We made a promise before
:03:56. > :04:00.the election that we would vote against any rise in fees under any
:04:00. > :04:04.circumstances, that was a mistake. It was a pledge made with the best
:04:04. > :04:08.of intentions, but we shouldn't have made a promise we weren't
:04:08. > :04:11.absolutely sure we could deliver. I shouldn't have committed to a
:04:11. > :04:14.policy that was so expensive when there was no money around. Not
:04:14. > :04:18.least when the most likely way we would end up in Government was in
:04:18. > :04:23.coalition with Labour or the Conservatives. Who were both
:04:23. > :04:28.committed to put fees up. This is a move straight out of the Tony Blair
:04:28. > :04:30.PlayBook, concede, apologise, and move on. It is just that many of
:04:30. > :04:35.the people who voted for Nick Clegg at the last election have already
:04:35. > :04:41.moved on, according to the polls, to other parties. This isn't really
:04:41. > :04:44.aimed at them, more at his nervous party activists and members who are
:04:44. > :04:48.meeting in Brighton this weekend for the party conference. The
:04:48. > :04:51.question is, will it make the blindest bit of difference.
:04:51. > :04:55.Although I don't expect them all to come blooding back tomorrow, I
:04:55. > :04:58.think people can say, OK, we thought they were wrong about that,
:04:58. > :05:01.now they have admitted they were wrong about that, now let's look at
:05:01. > :05:04.what else they are saying. If they like what else we are saying, and I
:05:04. > :05:08.hope a lot of people will recognise that the Liberal Democrats are
:05:08. > :05:11.making this Government a better and fairer Government, and if they like
:05:11. > :05:16.what they see now, there is no reason not to come back and vote
:05:16. > :05:20.for you. So, I hope that we will have succeeded in drawing a line
:05:20. > :05:29.under what wasn't a happy episode for us as a party, and that people
:05:29. > :05:32.will start to come back eventually. The Lib Dem's polls haven't
:05:32. > :05:36.improved since last year's party conference. Not only has it lost
:05:36. > :05:41.half of its support since the election, the majority of those
:05:41. > :05:47.that are left Iasi the polls, declare themselves -- left, say the
:05:47. > :05:53.polls, declare themselves dissatisfied with Nick Clegg. This
:05:53. > :05:57.broadcast seems an appeal to the few. We were right to leave the
:05:57. > :06:00.comfort of opposition to face the realities of Government, we are
:06:00. > :06:04.fighting for the right things too, rebuilding the economy to make it
:06:05. > :06:08.strong, changing the tax system to make it fair. Defending the
:06:08. > :06:12.vulnerable in the tough times. That is what my party believes in, that
:06:12. > :06:19.is what I believe in. And if we have lost your trust, that's how I
:06:19. > :06:24.hope we can start to win it back. So, has Mr Clegg got anything to
:06:24. > :06:27.fear from his party? Some senior Liberal Democrats close to the
:06:27. > :06:31.Deputy Prime Minister think the Business Secretary, Vince Cable, is
:06:31. > :06:36.on manoeuvres. In July, he told a newspaper, that he didn't exclude
:06:36. > :06:41.being party leader one day, now that "the worship of youth has
:06:41. > :06:45.diminished", who on earth could he have mefpbt. Our political editor -
:06:45. > :06:50.- meant. Our political editor is with us. This is a pretty fine
:06:50. > :06:56.kettle of fish? It is so nuanced. The political problem will be, that
:06:56. > :06:59.it isn't a straight forward apology, it is an apology for process, for
:06:59. > :07:03.making the promise in the first place, and then the nature of the
:07:03. > :07:07.U-turn. There will be trouble on. That let's accept he has done T I
:07:07. > :07:11.will explain what I think. What is odd, in the polls you would expect
:07:11. > :07:16.this to be a leader on his knees. If you look around the country in
:07:16. > :07:20.seats where the Lib Dems have MPs, they are bearing up well in
:07:20. > :07:23.elections and by-elections, this is Nick Clegg ahead of the elections,
:07:23. > :07:29.two-and-a-half years away from a general election, trying to clear
:07:29. > :07:32.the decks, get some credit. As it was said in that package, he's very
:07:32. > :07:34.critical of Clegg before, this is Nick Clegg trying to get credit for
:07:34. > :07:38.some of the things like increasing the personal tax allowance, and
:07:38. > :07:41.possibly be able to lead the party into the next election. This is
:07:41. > :07:44.basically Nick Clegg trying to save his leadership. I think that it
:07:44. > :07:48.will be difficult, given what we have said about the nature of the 0
:07:48. > :07:53.apology. One of the things, it is also going to be difficult because
:07:53. > :07:57.Vince Cable, when put to people in polls, polls better than Nick Clegg.
:07:57. > :08:03.That is becoming the concrete truth. Very fortunate we have him here.
:08:03. > :08:08.Indeed. Vince, why has it taken two years to get around to apologising
:08:08. > :08:12.for this? We have apologised before. But I think, to be frank, people
:08:12. > :08:17.were so angry, that people weren't listening. Now they are listening.
:08:17. > :08:19.I think the other reason for the timing is Nick wants to make it
:08:19. > :08:24.absolutely clear, it is a distinction between the pledge,
:08:24. > :08:28.which was wrong, and which he and we have apologised for, and the
:08:28. > :08:32.policy which we are now operating, which we don't apologise for, is
:08:32. > :08:36.actually in many ways an improvement and now in operation.
:08:36. > :08:40.You also want to apologise do you for what you said and did before
:08:40. > :08:43.the election? Yes, we are collectively responsible, we all
:08:44. > :08:47.participateed in that. It is not just Nick Clegg, it is the whole
:08:47. > :08:51.parliamentary party wants it apologise? Yes, it is, he has said
:08:51. > :08:54.this as part of it, I share the responsibility, I don't shirk from
:08:54. > :09:00.it. The odd thing is, you were warned before the election that the
:09:00. > :09:04.policy was unaffordable by Danny Alexander, weren't you? Indeed.
:09:04. > :09:07.That's where the apology is justified. Yet you chose to make a
:09:07. > :09:11.commitment in the manifesto that it was affordable? There is a
:09:11. > :09:15.distinction between the manifesto and the pledge. The manifesto, 80%
:09:15. > :09:18.of which we carried into the coalition agreement, that we knew,
:09:18. > :09:23.when we joined the coalition, we would have to compromise on that.
:09:23. > :09:27.The pledge was different, that's what Nick Clegg is referring to.
:09:27. > :09:31.But you had been told, you have just conceded, before the election,
:09:31. > :09:37.that the pledge was unaffordable? If it had been affordable other
:09:37. > :09:40.things would have had to go. were told by Danny Alexander in a
:09:40. > :09:43.confidential memo? I worked in economic affairs, he was part of
:09:43. > :09:47.the team. We realised we would have to make cuts in Government. Yet you
:09:47. > :09:51.chose to say it was affordable, you chose to say it was all costed out?
:09:51. > :09:56.That is where the apology is due, and rightly so. Did you personally
:09:56. > :09:59.believe it was affordable? I was sceptical about the pledge, but we
:09:59. > :10:04.agreed collectively to do it. I take my share of responsibility for
:10:04. > :10:10.that. Did you personally believe it was affordable? I personally was
:10:10. > :10:14.sceptical about the whole fees policy. You signed this pledge
:10:14. > :10:18.knowing it was possibly unaffordable? I signed the pledge
:10:18. > :10:22.on the basis that had we been in Government on our own, which was
:10:22. > :10:28.the commitment, we would have put through that policy. And we have
:10:28. > :10:30.done so. Nick Clegg in that broadcast appeared to suggest that
:10:31. > :10:34.had you formed a Government other than in coalition with Labour or
:10:34. > :10:38.Conservatives, you might have been able to implement it? Is that what
:10:38. > :10:41.thought, if so you are living in fantasy world? I wasn't living in
:10:41. > :10:47.fantasy world, because for a year before the election, as wul
:10:47. > :10:52.remember, probably more than any of the other -- as you well remember,
:10:52. > :10:54.probably more than any of the other people, was spelling out the need
:10:54. > :10:59.for cuts. It was a policy commitment that would have cost
:10:59. > :11:02.money, had we implemented it, other things would have to go. Did you
:11:02. > :11:07.tell Nick Clegg it was unaffordable? It was an unwise
:11:07. > :11:12.commitment to have made. We regret that. That was the basis of the
:11:12. > :11:16.apology. Did you tell Nick Clegg it was probably unaffordable?
:11:16. > :11:24.discussed this between ourselves, as part of our leadership team,
:11:24. > :11:28.there was scepticism, as part of the whole fees debate. We agreed
:11:28. > :11:33.collectively to support it, I take my share of responsibility for that.
:11:33. > :11:38.Who in the leadership team agreed with you that it was possibly
:11:38. > :11:42.unaffordable? It is not a question of individuals. It clearly is? You
:11:42. > :11:44.had deep reservations, you were sceptical about it, you have just
:11:44. > :11:47.said? I was sceptical about any significant financial commitment
:11:48. > :11:51.before the election, for reasons we have spelt out. But the parties
:11:51. > :11:54.agree their policies, we agree them collectively, we take on board
:11:54. > :11:57.things, we personally feel unhappy about, that is how decisions are
:11:57. > :12:02.made in parties, and in Government. It is called collective
:12:02. > :12:08.responsibility, and I was part of that. It was a stunt? No, it was
:12:08. > :12:12.not a stunt. It was part of a genuinely felt wish to assist the
:12:12. > :12:17.student population. We weren't able to carry through with it, but it
:12:17. > :12:22.was certainly deeper than the stunt. What else would you call something
:12:22. > :12:26.that you would deeply -- you were deeply sceptical about being able
:12:26. > :12:30.to afford, and you were advised was unaffordable, yet your leader chose
:12:30. > :12:33.to go through with, nonetheless? One has to make a distinction
:12:33. > :12:37.between the manifesto, that we had already agreed to, that was
:12:37. > :12:41.actually even more radical. It talked about phasing out fees, and
:12:41. > :12:45.the pledge, which was about freezing them, actually the pledge
:12:45. > :12:51.didn't go as far as the manifesto, that our party had decided it
:12:51. > :12:55.wanted to campaign on. You know, with the luxury of behind sight,
:12:55. > :12:58.people like me will say we were sceptical of the whole thing at the
:12:58. > :13:04.time. That is not the point, the point was, whatever views we had at
:13:04. > :13:09.the time, we all collectively signed this pledge, it was wrong,
:13:09. > :13:12.and Nick has apologised, and we collectively apologise for it. We
:13:12. > :13:16.now wish to have the debate about what is the sensible policy on
:13:16. > :13:20.universities. I think what we have done in office, something we are
:13:20. > :13:24.pleased of having done, we are careful to advocate. Can you give
:13:24. > :13:30.us a guarantee now, that everything, be it in this narrow distinction,
:13:30. > :13:37.either in the manifesto, or in some election stunt, anything you prob
:13:37. > :13:42.miswill be stuck to at the next election? After our experience --
:13:42. > :13:46.you promise will be stuck to at the next election? After our experience
:13:46. > :13:50.we will not go in with a lot of expensive commitments. We have been
:13:50. > :13:53.apologetic, all three parties in the past have made pledges to
:13:54. > :13:57.students about either not increasing or not introducing fee,
:13:57. > :14:01.all three parties went back on those commitments in office. We
:14:02. > :14:05.have been badly punished for it. We have lost a lot of trust. And we
:14:05. > :14:08.are acknowledging it. But this is not unique to our party. Do you
:14:08. > :14:12.recognise the damage you have done to trust in politics? It has done
:14:12. > :14:16.damage. That is why Nick is speaking in such heart felt terms.
:14:16. > :14:19.It is tragic in the way, I knew young people who weren't going to
:14:19. > :14:25.vote, who saw your campaign and pledge and went out. I know people
:14:25. > :14:30.who went leafleting for you, and then they were betrayed? Certainly
:14:30. > :14:37.they were very disillusion, we have had that anger, I have encountered
:14:37. > :14:41.it on a one-to-one basis with students I have met. I go around to
:14:41. > :14:45.university Camron pusses and there is a significant reappraisal, and
:14:45. > :14:49.people understand the fee, not paying cash, what we introduced in
:14:49. > :14:53.practice is a form of graduate tax. People pay in relation to their
:14:53. > :14:58.income, over their lifetime. It is a more progressive system, the one
:14:58. > :15:03.we inherited nobody pays upfront fees. You didn't say that at that
:15:03. > :15:09.time? No we didn't. Now that is embedded, we have a good policy for
:15:09. > :15:13.higheredcation, I'm very happy to go out and defend it. We want to
:15:13. > :15:18.make a distinction and having made a pledge we shouldn't have done.
:15:18. > :15:21.There are bad times just around the corner. Already Government
:15:21. > :15:25.departments spending tax-payers' money are having to make serious
:15:25. > :15:29.savings, right now, this Government, which came to power promising to
:15:29. > :15:34.sort out the vast debt run up by Labour predecessors, is running a
:15:34. > :15:37.big debt than they did. And whichever party takes power after
:15:37. > :15:47.the next election will have to find more savings, the worst is yet to
:15:47. > :15:48.
:15:48. > :15:53.come. What will that be like the - the Institute for Fiscal Studies
:15:53. > :15:57.has thought the unthinkable, and we have looked at the conclusions.
:15:57. > :16:01.You have seen incisions to public policing, to hospitals to libraries,
:16:01. > :16:06.right now, these cuts only go as deep as 2014, the scissors only
:16:06. > :16:10.keep on snipping for two years. Then they stop abruptly the year
:16:10. > :16:15.after next. Currently there are detailed plans, right now there is
:16:15. > :16:21.a great big white piece of paper. No cutting, let alone spending. But
:16:21. > :16:25.there will be, and the first cuts won't have been the deepest.
:16:25. > :16:28.Newsnight has been given a simulation of the next round of
:16:28. > :16:31.spending cuts, on tonight tonight's programme for the first time we
:16:31. > :16:35.give you the figures and implications of the figure. The
:16:35. > :16:38.current spending round lasts until 2014, after that there will have to
:16:39. > :16:42.be new cuts, fresh cuts, cuts upon cut, behind closed doors, in the
:16:42. > :16:52.Treasury, they are looking at these figure, they will loom large in
:16:52. > :16:53.
:16:53. > :16:57.your lives, and they will loom large in the next general election.
:16:57. > :17:02.Here is the number cruncher in chief? What people haven't done now
:17:02. > :17:07.is to look at what the pain would be like for spending departments,
:17:07. > :17:16.we have calculated if you held NHS spending constant, or you cut
:17:16. > :17:19.welfare, or decided to increase taxes.
:17:20. > :17:23.We have already seen cuts 2.3% to all Government departments, in
:17:23. > :17:27.order for the Chancellor to meet his own target of bringing the
:17:27. > :17:31.budget into surplus by the end of 2017, he would have to do more than
:17:31. > :17:36.the 2.3, he would have to do 3.8%. These are new items to be cut, not
:17:36. > :17:40.a continuation of the same. For the first time tonight, the Institute
:17:41. > :17:46.for Public Policy Research for Newsnight, tells us what they
:17:46. > :17:56.actually mean, from 2015-2017, �8 billion less on the NHS, education
:17:56. > :17:57.
:17:57. > :18:00.would see a cut of �4 billion. The eagle eyed among you will say
:18:00. > :18:04.we have forgotten the ring-fenced departments, it is not certain, but
:18:04. > :18:09.likely, that any Conservative Government will maintain the ring-
:18:09. > :18:13.fence, Westminster is humming about keeping the ring-fence but stuffing
:18:13. > :18:18.it with new responsibilities like social care. The IPPR is clear,
:18:18. > :18:21.keeping the ring-fence for the NHS and Department for International
:18:21. > :18:27.Development would mean 6% cuts to other departments, if you protected
:18:27. > :18:33.education too, it would be cuts of 8% to other departments. If this is
:18:33. > :18:37.too be a straubgt and you forgive crude calculation, it would mean
:18:37. > :18:41.the lost of some 70 though defence personal, and 20,000 police
:18:41. > :18:46.officers. -- 0,000 defence personal and
:18:46. > :18:50.20,000 police officers. What a painful future, that is why they
:18:50. > :18:53.are looking to make cuts to the welfare putting, it polls very well
:18:53. > :18:58.with target voters t would allow the Government to cut no further
:18:58. > :19:03.than the amount it is cutting right now, 2.3% in budgets that aren't
:19:03. > :19:07.ring-fenced, it wouldn't have to go as deep as the 3.8%. Cutting
:19:07. > :19:13.welfare effectively halves the cuts other departments, defence, home
:19:13. > :19:18.and education, must undergo. The Chancellor thinks the �10
:19:18. > :19:22.billion to the welfare budget have a logic, and Lib Dems have to
:19:22. > :19:26.accept them, otherwise they are sanctioning deeper cuts elsewhere.
:19:26. > :19:31.The IPPR think-tank think it is a choice. You can choose to raise
:19:31. > :19:35.more tax, cut certain forms of spending and not others, or cut
:19:35. > :19:41.welfare, that is the public debate, whether we have the right inkind of
:19:41. > :19:46.mix of options ashrailable. There are Lib Dems wondering out loud if
:19:46. > :19:50.it needs jump leads in the economy for more spending. The think-tank
:19:50. > :19:54.says more capital spending means more cuts to departments, large
:19:54. > :19:56.ones, of 5.4%. If it all sounds like too much pain. In order to
:19:56. > :20:01.meet its target the Government could go for a different kind of
:20:01. > :20:04.pain, tax rises instead of spending cuts. It could try and bring in �20
:20:04. > :20:09.billion in tax revenue, a mansion tax, the Lib Dem favoured option,
:20:09. > :20:12.would only bring in a tenth of that, �2 billion, in order to get up to
:20:12. > :20:16.that scale, you are looking at putting 4p on the basic rate of
:20:16. > :20:23.income tax. After an election, the Government
:20:23. > :20:28.could delay the whole thing, choosing to spend an extra �20
:20:28. > :20:31.billion, investment in capital projects, lower than average cuts
:20:31. > :20:35.to departmental spending, without cutting welfare. They could even
:20:35. > :20:41.temporarily cut taxes. At this, those concerned about the UK's
:20:41. > :20:45.level of debt shake their head. absolutely would not delay, because
:20:45. > :20:48.delay costs, it costs you more money, particularly in debt
:20:48. > :20:52.interest payment, and also you get political uncertainty because
:20:52. > :20:56.everybody starts to wonder are you serious about this or not. All
:20:56. > :21:00.politicians in all parties, I think, should be focused on doing this as
:21:01. > :21:04.quickly as possible. All of this sound incredibly difficult for a
:21:04. > :21:09.Government to do one year ahead of a general election. The suspicion
:21:09. > :21:12.is they won't do it, they won't do a vast Comprehensive Spending
:21:12. > :21:15.Review, but instead hand out one- year spending pots, to tie
:21:16. > :21:19.departments over to the other side of the election. When they get to
:21:19. > :21:24.the other side, if this Government is elected, maybe they will chose
:21:24. > :21:29.to delay the whole thing. When you look at the numbers it is quite an
:21:29. > :21:33.attractive option. Our artist, Patrick Blower, and the
:21:33. > :21:37.IPPR, have tried to help you find forms and colour between the lines,
:21:37. > :21:41.in what is ominously a blank piece of paper.
:21:41. > :21:46.Now, it was Sweden today, and some fearless journalist in Denmark says
:21:46. > :21:49.it will be there tomorrow. The editors of celebrities magazines
:21:50. > :21:53.across Europe remain resolute, they will not be gagged by the threat of
:21:53. > :21:58.lawsuit. The public must be free to gawp at the breasts of the wife of
:21:58. > :22:06.the second in line to the British thrown throne. It is in the British
:22:06. > :22:16.interest, you see -- throne. It is in the British interest. When we
:22:16. > :22:23.have Magna Carta, Voltaire, ends with a huge lens pointed at the
:22:23. > :22:27.future Queen. I will talk to my guests in a minute.
:22:27. > :22:32.According to some reports this was William and Kate dancing to
:22:32. > :22:37.celebrate their victory in France. True, yesterday, a French court
:22:37. > :22:44.ordered Closer magazine to hand over all copies of the photographs
:22:45. > :22:49.within 24 hours or face punitive daily fines. The mood was buoyant.
:22:49. > :22:54.TRANSLATION: This is great result. This morning French police tried 0
:22:54. > :23:00.close in on the photographer, raiding Closer's offices for clues
:23:00. > :23:03.to his or her identity. Today a Swedish celebrity magazine, joined
:23:03. > :23:11.France, Ireland and Italy, in publishing the pictures, a Danish
:23:11. > :23:14.weekly also promises what it calls a 16-page spread, full of photos of
:23:14. > :23:17.England's future Queen, to be published tomorrow. In all this
:23:17. > :23:24.will bring the total number of countries to see these images on
:23:24. > :23:28.their news stands, to five. The royal decision to sue early in the
:23:28. > :23:33.public life of their marriage, has been viewed by many as an attempt
:23:33. > :23:37.to draw what is inevitably called a line in the sand, and prevent the
:23:37. > :23:42.level of press harassment experienced by William's mother,
:23:42. > :23:49.Diana. With this topless story following them around their Far
:23:49. > :23:55.East tour, has it backfired. We have the editor of the Swedish
:23:55. > :23:59.magazine, she's in Stockholm now. From Los Angeles we are joined by
:23:59. > :24:04.royal biographer, Andrew Morton. Would you be happy to have yours
:24:04. > :24:08.gawped at around the world? sorry, I didn't hear the question.
:24:08. > :24:13.What would you feel if somebody were to take photographs of you
:24:13. > :24:20.sunbathing top lesson holiday, in private, and publish them in
:24:20. > :24:27.magazines around the world? It is quite OK, because even as a private
:24:27. > :24:31.citizen you always rufpb the risk, because it has -- run the risking,
:24:31. > :24:39.it has been happening to people sunbathing and published in ads and
:24:39. > :24:47.so on. What is the public interest in publishing these? This is
:24:47. > :24:53.nothing unusual for our magazines here, because we write about
:24:53. > :24:59.relationships, amongst celebrities, and we have published pictures of
:24:59. > :25:07.Sienna Miller, Sharon Stone, et cetera, they have been more nude
:25:07. > :25:14.than Kate. It is nothing unusual. It may not be unusual, I'm just
:25:14. > :25:19.asking you what the public interest is? Because there was such a fuss
:25:19. > :25:25.about the pictures, even though they were very nice in the context.
:25:25. > :25:28.I mean it is photographs of a loving couple, who is married, it
:25:28. > :25:33.is nothing scandalous, they are not something adult rouse, or cheating
:25:33. > :25:43.or something like that. It is a married couple, it is a very nice
:25:43. > :25:44.
:25:44. > :25:50.relationship, It is celebrities. They are not entitled to their
:25:50. > :25:53.privacy? Of course they are, but, I mean. Not according to you (under
:25:53. > :25:58.his breath) We report these pictures like any other pictures.
:25:58. > :26:05.How much did you pay for them? very much. How much? I can't tell
:26:05. > :26:10.you that. Why not? Because it is among. Because we don't disclose
:26:10. > :26:16.that because we have competitors that want to know what we pay for
:26:16. > :26:24.pictures and so on, so I can't tell you that. But it is not much, it is
:26:24. > :26:29.nothing amazing. It is just what we pay for other pictures of this kind.
:26:29. > :26:33.The invasion of other people's lives? Do you know who the
:26:33. > :26:36.photographer was? I can't tell you. Can you tell us the name of the
:26:36. > :26:40.photographer? No, I can't tell you anything about, that I have no
:26:40. > :26:45.comment about that issue, I'm sorry. Do you know who took them?
:26:46. > :26:51.bought them, like we buy any other pictures. We get an offer, and we
:26:51. > :26:56.say yes or no. In this case we said yes, because we think they are
:26:56. > :27:00.quite lovely pictures of the couple. You know they specifically asked
:27:00. > :27:07.for these photographs not to be published? We bought them on Friday
:27:07. > :27:16.the 14th. We are a weekly magazine, it takes some time to print it. We
:27:16. > :27:20.bought them on Friday the 14th of. Do you regret -- Friday the 14th.
:27:20. > :27:25.Do you regret publishing them? don't. You don't care they wanted
:27:25. > :27:33.to keep them private? That was after. We had already bought the
:27:33. > :27:38.pictures and done the work. We treat any celebrity, whether they
:27:38. > :27:44.are royal or they are actors or actresses or singers the same. We
:27:44. > :27:50.don't treat them any different if they are royal. So ...You Treat
:27:50. > :27:55.them with contempt? That is your opinion. You clearly don't respect
:27:55. > :28:00.their right to privacy. Andrew Morton, how much does this sort of
:28:00. > :28:06.event remind you of Diana's troubles with the media? I think
:28:06. > :28:13.the irony about this whole event, which has gone from a storm in a B-
:28:13. > :28:18.cup, to a storm in a DD-cup, if Diana and Charles in the early days
:28:18. > :28:22.of their marriage on a similar kind of holiday, you would have 20, 30
:28:22. > :28:26.photographers trying to get pictures. In a curious kind of way,
:28:26. > :28:31.Prince William is getting a fraction, a mere taste of what
:28:31. > :28:41.Diana went through in her life. Although he's clearly distressed by
:28:41. > :28:44.it. Yes, what you are seeing by Prince William is a genuine step
:28:45. > :28:49.change in the way they are handling it. They have used the Middleton
:28:49. > :28:54.family over the past few years as a kind of stacking horse with regards
:28:54. > :28:58.to privacy. Prince Charles in the past would standby the old royal
:28:58. > :29:02.motto, never complain, never explain. Prince William seems to be
:29:02. > :29:06.of a different generation. He believes that part of his life is
:29:06. > :29:11.private, and part of his is public, when it is public he's on display,
:29:11. > :29:16.when it is private there is a red line there. And he's prepared to go
:29:16. > :29:19.to court. That does seem to me to set a precedent. Is he going to be
:29:19. > :29:24.taking photographers, editors, magazines around the world to court
:29:24. > :29:30.for the next 60 years. But he's entitled to expect that if he's,
:29:30. > :29:34.the best part of a kilometer from any public position, that he is in
:29:34. > :29:37.private, and that privacy should be respected, isn't he entitled to
:29:37. > :29:43.respect that? Yes, of course, everybody is entitled to respect
:29:43. > :29:48.that. But it is a bit like the Harry thing as well. When you are a
:29:48. > :29:58.celebrity, and it doesn't matter if you are a Hollywood celebrity or a
:29:58. > :29:59.
:29:59. > :30:09.British royal, you are never really private. So, in a sense, you are at
:30:09. > :30:12.the mercy of photographers. As far as William is concerned, he clearly
:30:12. > :30:18.is seeing this through the prism of his mother's experience of the
:30:18. > :30:22.media, which eventually, accidentally, was fatal. That is a
:30:22. > :30:26.difficult thing to live with, isn't it? Yeah, I think there is a huge
:30:26. > :30:31.overstatement in the public about what's been said about this. I
:30:31. > :30:37.doian that, as we all know, died as a result of a drunk driver, driving
:30:37. > :30:41.too fast in a built-up area. This is a long-range photograph taken of
:30:41. > :30:50.Kate Middleton taking her top off. I think that the reaction of
:30:50. > :30:56.William has been disproportionate, because it is ratchetted up the
:30:56. > :31:03.ante. And counter-productive? Ultimately yes. This has gone from
:31:03. > :31:08.being what was a small magazine in France, to being a worldwide could
:31:08. > :31:13.go flagellation and talking point - - conflagration and talking point,
:31:13. > :31:18.William is very different to his father, his father is what you call
:31:18. > :31:26.a Downton Abbey royal, a patrician, and aristocrat, believing his life
:31:26. > :31:31.is essentially lived in public, and Prince William seems more of an
:31:31. > :31:35.Archasica Avenue royal, who thinks he's leading a private life and
:31:35. > :31:39.from time to time dips in and out of the royal world. We are in a
:31:39. > :31:43.phoney war sort of state in the euro crisis, the basic problem, the
:31:43. > :31:48.bankruptcy of some incompetently or dishonestly run southern European
:31:48. > :31:55.states, is as bad as it ever of, but the European Central Bank's
:31:55. > :32:00.promise to stand behind them, seems to have stayed the hands of the
:32:00. > :32:03.gamblers who make-or-break national economies. But people in Germany
:32:03. > :32:09.have yet to be convinced that propping up these countries is a
:32:09. > :32:14.worthwhile spend of their taxes. Paul Mason, our answer to no sir
:32:14. > :32:19.tro dam mus is here. -- no sir dam mus is here.
:32:19. > :32:21.Tell us what is going on? If you can sort Spain out you sort the
:32:21. > :32:28.acute phase of the eurocrisis, everything the European Central
:32:28. > :32:38.Bank did over the summer was aimed at Spain. Just to recap, Mario
:32:38. > :32:51.
:32:51. > :32:56.And? The effect, let's have a look. Here is the Spanish Stock Exchange.
:32:56. > :33:00.It falls by a third over the year. And as soon as Draghi speaks in
:33:00. > :33:03.July, not when he acts in September, when he speaks in July, there it is,
:33:04. > :33:08.it is back, it is significantly back up already. And now let as
:33:08. > :33:12.look at the all-important bond yield, this is what it costs Spain
:33:13. > :33:17.to borrow over ten years, it is rising as the panic rises towards
:33:17. > :33:20.July, Draghi speaks and down it has gone. This creates for the Spanish
:33:20. > :33:23.Government a bit of a dilemma, things are getting better, before
:33:23. > :33:28.they have done anything. And there is a temptation, with the Spanish
:33:29. > :33:35.Government, to do nothing. The only problem is, things are also falling
:33:35. > :33:38.apart. Tomorrow you will seal the boss of Catalonia, a major region,
:33:38. > :33:41.go and demand fiscal autonomy with Spain, he will call an election,
:33:41. > :33:45.and won't get it. We had disturbances on the streets tonight,
:33:45. > :33:48.and a huge demonstration at the weekend. I have been speaking to
:33:48. > :33:55.two veteran Spanish politicians, about how to get out of this
:33:55. > :34:05.impasse. For the railway workers who took over Madrid's main station
:34:05. > :34:13.this week, time is running out. 65 billion euros worth of cuts and tax
:34:13. > :34:17.increases are hitting wages and jobs hard. That is what brought
:34:17. > :34:24.more than 100,000 on to the streets last Saturday. But there is more
:34:24. > :34:28.austerity to come. Soon the Spanish Prime Minister,
:34:28. > :34:31.will be forced to take a bail out. The conditions are likely to be
:34:31. > :34:36.tougher still. It has become an article of faith in Spain that the
:34:36. > :34:40.country has to modernise and become competitive. But the closer you get
:34:40. > :34:44.to the politicians here, the more you realise how few of them are
:34:44. > :34:52.prepared to accept what that means, for them, their supporters, their
:34:52. > :34:57.party and system they have been running for the past ten years.
:34:57. > :34:59.So, is Europe really prepared to throw hundreds of billions of bail
:34:59. > :35:04.out cash at the political class that brought this country to its
:35:04. > :35:14.knees? One man who helped design modern
:35:14. > :35:19.Spain is former socialist Prime Minister, gone sal lays, he's --
:35:20. > :35:23.Gonzales, he's scathing about Mr Rajoy's Government. TRANSLATION:
:35:23. > :35:27.impression is the Government doesn't know what to do. It is not
:35:27. > :35:31.that it doesn't know what to do, it doesn't know what to do with the
:35:31. > :35:38.Spanish economy, nor does it know what role Europe should play.
:35:38. > :35:42.believes Spain should take a bail out, but based on the austerity
:35:42. > :35:47.plan, it should stop waiting and propose its own solution now.
:35:47. > :35:51.TRANSLATION: It has to be a Spanish proposal, this "proposal" from the
:35:51. > :35:54.Government, let's wait and see what the others are doing, is wrong,
:35:54. > :35:59.they should say this is my position and this is what we want and the
:35:59. > :36:04.answer will be either yes or no. All this year, Spanish politicians
:36:04. > :36:08.have had to live with the specter of social unrest. Last week one-
:36:08. > :36:15.and-a-half million Catalans took to the streets of Barcelona, demanding
:36:15. > :36:18.outride independence. The region, one of Spain's richest, is bust.
:36:18. > :36:24.TRANSLATION: People protest with good reason, they don't know where
:36:24. > :36:26.we are heading. Including the Catalan mobilise and the one in
:36:26. > :36:29.Madrid, nobody has a serious explanation of what the Government
:36:29. > :36:33.wants to do, except for what the Prime Minister says, we do what we
:36:33. > :36:43.have to do, even if we don't like it T you have to explain what you
:36:43. > :36:48.are doing and why. Spain's banks, part nationalised,
:36:48. > :36:52.are to be bailed out to the tune of 100 billion euro, with EU tax-
:36:52. > :36:56.payers' money. But it will be politically
:36:56. > :37:01.sensitive, tens of thousands of ordinary savers were encouraged to
:37:01. > :37:04.buy shares in the busted banks, and they could lose a lot. But the
:37:04. > :37:08.crucial question for Madrid remains the conditions on the sovereign
:37:08. > :37:13.bail out. Germany wants them tough, Spain's man on the European
:37:13. > :37:17.Commission begs to differ. I think more strict surveillance or
:37:17. > :37:22.monitoring, on how the different obligations and commitments are
:37:22. > :37:26.implemented, is always good. you don't think Spain needs any
:37:26. > :37:30.additional, substantive, austerity measures, imposed from outside?
:37:30. > :37:35.With the information available right now, I don't think so. I
:37:35. > :37:40.think what Spain needs is to regain confidence in the way those
:37:40. > :37:46.recommendations and those commitments have been implemented.
:37:46. > :37:49.Even as Spain waits, and protests, the pro-euro political class sees
:37:49. > :37:53.this as a moment to go forward. There have been strong calls out of
:37:53. > :38:01.Brussels for a rapid move to fiscal union, political union, and calls
:38:01. > :38:05.here in Britain for a referendum. Which he does not agree. What we
:38:05. > :38:10.need is to see how the European Parliament and the European
:38:10. > :38:15.Commission, that we are accountable before the European Parliament, we
:38:15. > :38:19.show the citizens that our decision, our strategies, our discussions,
:38:19. > :38:23.are as democratic and as transparent and understandable as
:38:23. > :38:28.the ones that are taking place in the national parliament. What does
:38:28. > :38:34.that, I'm not sure what that means does that mean there will be a
:38:34. > :38:38.referendum? I'm in favour of a parliamentary democracy. I think
:38:38. > :38:44.this democratic election, in 2014, the European Parliament election in
:38:44. > :38:48.less than two years, is a very, very important day for all the
:38:48. > :38:52.Europeans, because there the majority of the representive of the
:38:52. > :38:59.people that will be sitting there, will be those who will have in
:38:59. > :39:03.their hand most of the most important decisions for our future.
:39:03. > :39:07.These are the massive stake, solve the Spanish crisis, and for some,
:39:07. > :39:12.it is fast forward, to political and fiscal union. But few expect
:39:12. > :39:18.the coming bail out to be welcomed by Spain's people, and if Spain
:39:18. > :39:23.does get the bail out demanded by the senior politician, will Germany,
:39:23. > :39:31.so vilified here, buy it? Here to discuss this we have the
:39:31. > :39:35.chairman of business for New Europe, the UK Independence Party MEP, and
:39:35. > :39:41.the Pref fesor of economics and strategy at the LSE. -- Professor
:39:41. > :39:45.of economics and Strategy at the LSE. Would you say it appears the
:39:45. > :39:49.strategy appears to be working? does, it is an extraordinary
:39:49. > :39:52.decision by Mario Draghi to say he would do whatever it take,
:39:52. > :39:57.including buying bonds. It was a brave decision and the Governments
:39:57. > :40:03.have to ask for it. Even though some things he's doing is right, he
:40:03. > :40:08.needs a greater sense of urgency. One thing is asking right now for
:40:08. > :40:11.the bail out that is needed. Can it last? I don't think so, it is a
:40:11. > :40:16.short-term solution, in the end, when the conditions for this bail
:40:16. > :40:21.out are laid out, the Spanish Government will have to face
:40:21. > :40:26.reality. And the people will react to this. I don't think this will
:40:26. > :40:33.solve the problem. I think the European Union is part of the
:40:33. > :40:38.problem. And the European Union is not going to bring the solution for
:40:38. > :40:43.this situation. I think you know, they need to think differently.
:40:43. > :40:46.Just before we talk about Spain, the Germans, the head of the
:40:46. > :40:51.Bundesbank was saying the other day that this was like something out of
:40:51. > :40:55.Faust, they are really, really worried, aren't they? And rightly
:40:55. > :40:59.so? They are of two mind, this solution allows them not to
:40:59. > :41:04.actually pay, but to find another way to pay. As long as the bluff
:41:04. > :41:08.works? I mean the problem is, exactly, if you are not supporting
:41:08. > :41:13.the solution, it is not really credible, and in the end it might
:41:13. > :41:18.fall apart. For it to work it needs real strong support, and for people
:41:18. > :41:23.to believe these can be implement. Is there a logical inconsistentcy
:41:23. > :41:27.in all of this, how can you say you will do whatever it take, to keep
:41:27. > :41:31.every country within the euro, and at the same time say, there are
:41:31. > :41:34.going to be conditions for any kind of bail out? You are right in the
:41:34. > :41:38.sense of who is actually going to blink first, that is going to be
:41:38. > :41:43.one of the big things in the whole of this bail out, but I think Mario
:41:43. > :41:47.Draghi has made very clear, it is irreversible, once ask you for the
:41:47. > :41:50.help, you get the help, you will have to embark on the structural
:41:50. > :41:54.reform. The sense of momentum will take the countries through that,
:41:54. > :41:58.and it will be helpful. You are seeing the structural reform
:41:58. > :42:02.actually happening already in Spain and in Greece, we need more of it
:42:02. > :42:05.and with a sense of urgency. Do you get the feeling the Spanish will
:42:05. > :42:09.accept the conditions? Government is hesitating to long.
:42:09. > :42:13.They really need to step forward and ask. It is better to ask now
:42:13. > :42:16.when the situation is relatively calm, than to wait for the next
:42:16. > :42:20.panic and suddenly on Friday night say you are desperate. Then the
:42:20. > :42:25.Dutch and Germans will come piling on with extra condition. That is
:42:25. > :42:31.what happened with the bank rescue. The bank rescue was supposed to be
:42:31. > :42:37.just that. It is about printing money, to sort out the situation.
:42:37. > :42:43.And to keep the eurozone going. It would be much better to allow these
:42:43. > :42:50.countries that do not really have the economies at the level they
:42:50. > :42:53.should be, to allow them to leave the eurozone, and the value and
:42:53. > :42:58.default. They won't leave the eurozone, they don't want to.
:42:58. > :43:03.don't want to leave. Printing money for the UK and the US they have
:43:03. > :43:10.been doing that. When the euro of introduced, the Spanish people were
:43:10. > :43:20.mad, because a coffee of worth one pesata, the following day it was
:43:20. > :43:20.
:43:20. > :43:29.worth one euro. That is a very cheap coffee? 100 pesetas, the
:43:29. > :43:34.following day it was 166pesetass, the people weren't happy, then the
:43:34. > :43:38.European comes in and injects the funding, but it was short-term.
:43:38. > :43:44.the moment you think Spain would be better off out of the euro? I think
:43:44. > :43:49.that not only Spain, not only Spain, but you know, many of the countries
:43:49. > :43:54.in the southern part of Europe, that do not have the level. What
:43:54. > :43:58.about the alternative being canvased, which is this fast
:43:58. > :44:02.progress towards fiscal union and all sorts of other institutions
:44:02. > :44:06.which make it impossible for that sort of thing to happen? The key
:44:06. > :44:10.thing is the banking union, basically what has been happening
:44:10. > :44:15.is this vicious look between the banks of the country get weak, then
:44:15. > :44:20.the state, back the banks, gets also weakened. Or indeed the other
:44:20. > :44:28.way round. You can't have a bad Government pulling down a good bank
:44:28. > :44:35.or visa versa. With fiscal union you only need a minimum amount of
:44:35. > :44:42.fiscal union to get through. You don't need eurobonds and that.
:44:42. > :44:46.essence of the banking union is a European deposit insurance. And you
:44:46. > :44:49.are playing regulator and resolution authority. It is deposit
:44:49. > :44:55.insurance, this has not been agreed by Germany, I don't think that
:44:55. > :45:00.Germany is ever going it agree to this deposit insurance. This
:45:00. > :45:06.banking union is a treem of Mr Barroso, that's all -- a dream of
:45:06. > :45:09.Mr Barroso, that is all. I'm afraid that is not it. Talking about
:45:09. > :45:15.dreams among the European political class, the difficulty is when they
:45:15. > :45:19.choose to act them out? Exactly. They come up and the commission has
:45:19. > :45:24.been drawing policies and proposals for the last decade. They have
:45:24. > :45:34.injected money and it money has been wasted. Things that two weeks
:45:34. > :45:38.ago. Nothing has happened. Things that two years ago would have been
:45:38. > :45:42.considered unconceivable have happened. This is acting like any
:45:42. > :45:47.grown-up Central Bank. He saved a crisis, we would have had a huge
:45:47. > :45:52.financial crisis in July if he hadn't done that. He has postponed
:45:52. > :45:55.the cry he is.S That is the key point. Has he postponed the crisis,
:45:55. > :46:00.and mixed it, flattened it? because you can already see big
:46:00. > :46:03.changes in Spain, there have been proper labour reform. No way.
:46:03. > :46:07.there are. There are greater variations of pay in Spain. The
:46:07. > :46:13.fact is he needs to do more, and the best thing to do is ask for the
:46:13. > :46:18.help so it can happen now. comparison between the UK and Spain
:46:18. > :46:22.is very useful. The UK had the worst problem in the financial
:46:22. > :46:27.sector, the reason the financial sector didn't drag the state, is
:46:27. > :46:37.you have the a Central Bank that can back the state with pounds.
:46:37. > :46:37.
:46:37. > :46:42.Spain doesn't have that, the state is being dragged down by the
:46:42. > :46:45.financial sector. In the UK we had an effective bail out of the banks
:46:45. > :46:49.done with recapitalisation. In Spain you have had had four
:46:49. > :46:54.attempts, that is why you need the European Stability Mechanism, where
:46:54. > :46:58.actually you get an independent institution that actually
:46:58. > :47:02.recapitalises a bank, not going through the nation. That is wrong,
:47:02. > :47:07.it should be closed down. I want you to ask you a simple and trivial
:47:07. > :47:09.question, these two clearly think this is going to work, what is your
:47:09. > :47:15.prediction for, well you have reservations, but a lot of things
:47:15. > :47:19.need to be done. I'm an optimist. What is your prediction for 18
:47:19. > :47:25.months time, how many countries will still be in the euro? I think
:47:25. > :47:29.know, I know the EU from the bottom of my heart, so I know that they
:47:29. > :47:35.will drag on and on and on. They will drag on.S What the
:47:35. > :47:43.answer? The answer is, that I think Greece is going to leave in the
:47:43. > :47:46.near future. We are down to 16, and then? Spain will follow. Spain will
:47:46. > :47:53.take some time, Spain will be the end of the eurozone. If Spain
:47:53. > :47:56.leaves it will be the end of the eurozone. And I am sure. No such
:47:56. > :48:00.look luck. We will have all 17 this. The commission will do all it can
:48:00. > :48:10.to save it. That is all from Newsnight tonight, more tomorrow,
:48:10. > :48:14.
:48:14. > :48:17.until then, gie good night. -- good Hello, there was plenty of
:48:17. > :48:20.Hello, there was plenty of September sunshine around today.
:48:20. > :48:24.Much less tomorrow. We will see some rain across that central slice
:48:24. > :48:29.of the UK. Quite a wet day for northern England, southern Scotland
:48:29. > :48:33.and Northern Ireland. Chilly too, 11 in the castle. Further south the
:48:33. > :48:37.temperatures are higher, some breaking through now and again
:48:37. > :48:41.across southern counties of London. It will feel reasonably pleasant
:48:41. > :48:45.when the sun comes through. The winds fairly light as well. A fine
:48:45. > :48:51.afternoon across south-west England, across most places in Wales, a fair
:48:51. > :48:53.bit of cloud. North Wales still prone to patchy
:48:53. > :48:57.light rain. Northern Ireland the rain may ease for a time, it is
:48:57. > :49:04.likely to come back in again through the afternoon, turning
:49:04. > :49:07.fairly heavy at times. The rain assisting across the central belt
:49:07. > :49:14.of Scotland. Scotland at the sidedly on the low side, 10-11 or
:49:14. > :49:17.best. Brightening up through Friday. It
:49:17. > :49:21.goes the other way for southern part. Generally dry for Thursday,
:49:21. > :49:25.the rain moving in, as we go into Friday. The weather front that has