:00:13. > :00:16.Tonight, charges on four counts of murder for Dale Cregan, the man
:00:16. > :00:20.being held in connection with the deaths of two police officers in
:00:20. > :00:24.Manchester on Tuesday. Donal MacIntyre investigates the terror
:00:24. > :00:27.being wrought by feuding criminal families, that has force add
:00:27. > :00:34.culture of silence in the city. Most people don't like the place,
:00:34. > :00:40.it is game to them, it's like let's get this person out, it is like
:00:40. > :00:44.Robinhood, how many people protected him -- Robin Hood, how
:00:44. > :00:49.many people protected him. We will discuss that with our guest.
:00:49. > :00:55.Protest and unrest in Pakistan, as the latest images to offend some
:00:55. > :01:01.Muslims are published in France. I will speak to the prominent Somali
:01:01. > :01:05.academic, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, who fled to America to escape Muslim rage.
:01:05. > :01:09.We report from America on how anxiety over the country's place in
:01:09. > :01:12.the world is playing out in the presidential battle. This man says
:01:13. > :01:19.America's place in the league of nations has fallen under President
:01:19. > :01:25.Obama, and that he knows what to do about it.
:01:26. > :01:35.Jeremy and Vince Cable break into song.
:01:36. > :01:38.
:01:38. > :01:43.# It was a 40-foot ploug Good evening. Tonight the Chief
:01:43. > :01:47.Constable of Manchester asked people in the city to look at their
:01:47. > :01:52.conscience and come forward with information. The people have been
:01:52. > :01:57.too scared to do so until now, despite a �50,000 reward, is
:01:57. > :02:01.evidence of the impact of the criminal warfare bedeviling the
:02:01. > :02:04.city. Now police have announced that Dale Cregan has been charged
:02:04. > :02:07.with the murder of two police officers, and the murder of a
:02:08. > :02:10.father and son in Manchester earlier this year. A year ago Donal
:02:10. > :02:13.MacIntyre investigated, for Newsnight, the notorious gang
:02:13. > :02:18.culture in the city, he has returned to find out more about the
:02:18. > :02:20.culture of silence. Families and colleagues of the two
:02:20. > :02:24.fallen officers continued to lay wreaths at the crime scene, and
:02:24. > :02:29.people are coming to terms with the possibility that Dale Cregan, the
:02:29. > :02:33.subject of the biggest manhunt in the had history of Greater
:02:34. > :02:37.Manchester Police, was recognised and offered sanctuary in his own
:02:37. > :02:44.community of Hattersley, while on the run. In spite of a huge media
:02:44. > :02:47.campaign, nobody thought fit to inform the authorities. Not even an
:02:47. > :02:52.unprecedented �50,000 reward could entice those who saw the fugutive
:02:52. > :02:56.during his 39 days on the run, to hand the suspected murderer in. The
:02:56. > :03:02.question already being asked by some senior policemen, is what
:03:02. > :03:06.could possibly motivate communities like this h to offer, support,
:03:06. > :03:10.sanctuary or protection to gangsters like Dale Cregan. Is it a
:03:10. > :03:15.matter of retribution or fear of intimidation, or is it a matter of
:03:15. > :03:19.distrust between the police and the people on some of these streets.
:03:19. > :03:27.The Chief Constable of Greater Manchester Police, Sir Peter Fahy,
:03:27. > :03:32.had already allude today what he called, a conspiracy of silence, as
:03:32. > :03:36.he blamed unnamed members of the community of turning a blind eye.
:03:36. > :03:40.Are you concerned there is an element of mistrust of the police
:03:40. > :03:45.in this situation, and it is contributing to the conspiracy of
:03:45. > :03:49.silence? We need not to be niave that there are criminal networks
:03:49. > :03:53.that make a lot of money about drug dealing, counterfeiting, stolen
:03:53. > :03:57.goods, and they don't want the police or any form of authority
:03:57. > :04:00.interfering with their efforts. does this understate the range of
:04:00. > :04:04.motives at play. Is gangland wealth and intimidation sufficient to
:04:04. > :04:08.explain the actions of those who saw Cregan and chose not to speak
:04:08. > :04:12.out. People in this community want good
:04:12. > :04:16.policing, they want good law and order. But what they are get
:04:16. > :04:19.convinced is that actually police forces, such as the Greater
:04:19. > :04:23.Manchester Police, are able to deliver that, within this community,
:04:23. > :04:28.24 hours a day, seven days a week. So they turn to other people that
:04:28. > :04:31.they think can be more effective. On the estate, people are quite
:04:31. > :04:35.open about fears for their own safety, if they are seen to co-
:04:35. > :04:42.operate with the police. There are a certain class of people out there
:04:42. > :04:46.that are keeping somebody like this under wraps, you know, and they are
:04:46. > :04:51.more or less bullied into not saying anything. People are scared.
:04:51. > :04:54.I'm scared myself. So I know other people will be scared. It's
:04:54. > :04:59.frightening because you think to yourself, what will be the
:04:59. > :05:04.reprecussions, in so many weeks or months down the line, when all this
:05:04. > :05:08.is gone, you worry. I think some other poor innocent buy stander
:05:08. > :05:15.could get caught inbetween -- bistander, could get caught
:05:15. > :05:24.inbetween all of this. Dominic Noonan was handcuffed to two police
:05:24. > :05:28.officers when men held up the car. Dominic Noonan released on license
:05:28. > :05:32.after a gun crime, has relied on members of the public to protect
:05:32. > :05:36.him on the run. There is a phone call, and they say, Dominic needs
:05:36. > :05:39.moving, a car will turn up, the location will be moved. Only the
:05:39. > :05:43.driver and one person would know where the next location was.
:05:44. > :05:47.would somebody who didn't know you, but part of your wider community,
:05:47. > :05:51.why would they give you sanctuary? Most people don't like the police,
:05:51. > :05:54.it is game to them, it is like let's get this person out, it is
:05:54. > :05:57.like Robin Hood, how many people protected him in the community,
:05:57. > :06:01.that is what it looks like. Those who are familiar with policing in
:06:01. > :06:06.Northern Ireland recognise that there are clear parallels between
:06:06. > :06:10.the dynamics at play there during the troubles, and the dynamics that
:06:11. > :06:14.revealed themselves most graphicly here, in recent days. Distrust in
:06:14. > :06:17.the police, -- graphicically here, in recent days. Distrust in the
:06:17. > :06:20.police, fear of retribution, and the lack of confidence in the
:06:20. > :06:23.police to protect them in the long- term. They are not interested in
:06:23. > :06:26.the police, the police are out for themselves, they don't look after
:06:26. > :06:29.the estates round here, these people will come out and protect
:06:29. > :06:35.those who look after them. Communities feel threatened, they
:06:35. > :06:39.don't feel they can turn to the traditional providers of community
:06:39. > :06:42.stability, community organisation. And increasingly people within
:06:42. > :06:46.those communities identify themselves, because they are hard
:06:46. > :06:50.men, as being able to deliver the safety that people in the community
:06:50. > :06:56.want. The most pressing concern here is the ability of the police
:06:56. > :06:59.to protect the public in the long- term, if they aid the authorities.
:06:59. > :07:03.What confidence can they have that you will still protect them when
:07:04. > :07:06.this media circus dies down? would say because of our record in
:07:06. > :07:10.Greater Manchester Police in bringing down gun crime and gang
:07:10. > :07:14.activity, you only have to look at the area of Moss Side in man
:07:14. > :07:17.chester, it is transformed, we had some of those levels of mistrust,
:07:17. > :07:20.we had to protect witness, brave people came forward and made
:07:20. > :07:24.statements, and serious criminals have been locked up for a very long
:07:24. > :07:28.period. As the justice system begins to deal with recent events,
:07:28. > :07:32.this community has to contemplate the terrible consequences that
:07:32. > :07:36.resulted from some among them turning a blind eye.
:07:37. > :07:40.Here in the studio to discuss what this case can tell us about gang
:07:40. > :07:44.culture in Manchester, we have Peter Walsh, author of Gang War,
:07:45. > :07:49.the inside story of the Manchester gangs. Ruth Ibegbuna, director of a
:07:49. > :07:52.youth project in Manchester, and from Birmingham, Deputy Chief
:07:52. > :07:58.Constable of West Midlands these, Dave Thompson, who leads on gangs
:07:58. > :08:02.for the Association of Chief Constables, and was formerly a
:08:02. > :08:06.chief police officers in Manchester. Listening to the film, and also a
:08:06. > :08:11.number of the local people saying when the caravan moves on, and
:08:11. > :08:15.after all this you might not be there, and people have a terrible
:08:15. > :08:19.fear of retribution, no matter how reassuring the words of the Chief
:08:19. > :08:21.Constable, that is what people were telling Donal MacIntyre today?
:08:21. > :08:23.the environment of what happened in the last few days it is
:08:23. > :08:28.understandable, people are really concerned and will be frightened.
:08:28. > :08:32.There are a couple of points to note. Perhaps it is difficult at
:08:32. > :08:37.what is a really difficult time. The points Peter Fahy has made,
:08:37. > :08:41.across the country we have seen gun and knife crime fall. We have seen
:08:42. > :08:44.successes around taking out serious criminals. That may well be true,
:08:44. > :08:48.let's just deal with what they are saying, it is not just over the
:08:48. > :08:53.last few days. These people were saying that consistently they don't
:08:53. > :08:56.feel that they can trust the police to look after them in the long-term,
:08:56. > :09:02.that they feel retribution, that you are not there 24 hours, and
:09:02. > :09:11.there is a real culture of intimidation. Presumably you can't
:09:11. > :09:15.belittle that. You put out a �50,000, a reward, nobody comes
:09:15. > :09:18.forward, it is part of the culture? I won't discuss detailed issues
:09:18. > :09:20.around the policing in Manchester, I will talk around the broader
:09:20. > :09:23.issue. It would be fair to say, clearly in terms of gangs and
:09:23. > :09:26.organised criminals, that people are concerned, what I would say
:09:26. > :09:30.around that is you have to look, look at what's going on in the
:09:30. > :09:33.courtrooms, look at actual low the high levels of success, clearly the
:09:33. > :09:38.issues that Sir Peter Fahy talked about, that have happened in Moss
:09:38. > :09:43.Side, that areing significant. Look at the work that police forces are
:09:43. > :09:47.doing, that is about information, not evidence of witnesses, lots of
:09:47. > :09:50.covert activity, lots of new technology being used, you will see
:09:50. > :09:53.there is some significant work being carried out in those areas. I
:09:53. > :09:57.understand people are concerned, but I do think people can trust in
:09:57. > :10:02.policing and look at some real successes. Let's lock at that, you
:10:02. > :10:06.know, we are obviously not going to talk specifically, we are talking
:10:06. > :10:10.about lots of guns, grenades. People know about these things. You
:10:10. > :10:13.know, do you feel that what the woman said, they are not there 24
:10:13. > :10:18.hours, David Wilson said, the problem is they don't feel the
:10:18. > :10:23.police are there for them? Thomson is right, they have had a
:10:23. > :10:27.lot of successes in Manchester. Despite the horrors of the recent
:10:27. > :10:32.incident, the facts show the problem with gang culture is not as
:10:32. > :10:35.bad as it was a few years ago or in the 1990s, the figures show.
:10:35. > :10:39.Recently they have had a lot of successes in the city. Clearly
:10:39. > :10:43.there is a problem, witness intimidation, people don't feel
:10:43. > :10:49.they can go to the police, and then feel safe in their own homes.
:10:49. > :10:53.Someone like Dominic Noonan feels very confident about talking about
:10:53. > :10:56.these issues. Talking openly about them, that people will come to him,
:10:56. > :11:01.people are passed along houses sort of thing. We are not talking about
:11:01. > :11:06.lots and lot of criminal tendencies, we are talking about ordinary women,
:11:07. > :11:11.men, kids, feeling vulnerable? and growing up in a situation where
:11:11. > :11:14.it is normal not to go to the police, or grass, as they see it.
:11:14. > :11:17.When you, Ruth, have been speaking to some of the young people you
:11:17. > :11:21.deal with, particularly since the shootings on Tuesday, give me some
:11:21. > :11:24.sense of their reaction? teenagers we have been working with
:11:24. > :11:30.have been utterly horrified. But I think it is also the area of
:11:30. > :11:35.Manchester. A lot of the focus in man chest, in terms of gang
:11:35. > :11:39.violence, that it is in Moss Side, an area synonymous with gang
:11:39. > :11:43.violence, this has come out of the blue for the young people we work
:11:43. > :11:48.with, they weren't aware that this area of Manchester could contain
:11:48. > :11:52.this level of violence. reaction to the murders? Horrifying,
:11:52. > :11:55.the young people have realised the police can be vulnerable. The young
:11:55. > :12:00.people feel the police are against them sometimes, they feel it is us
:12:00. > :12:03.and them sometimes, this has shown, that with the dangerous criminals
:12:03. > :12:06.the police are vulnerable. Vulnerable, does that mean they are
:12:06. > :12:10.more likely to go to them if there is a problem, you work with police
:12:10. > :12:15.officers out of uniform with young people. Will there be a change in
:12:15. > :12:19.diem thatic, or a sudden, visceral outpouring of fear? There is an
:12:19. > :12:24.outpouring of fear, but I also think the young people we work with,
:12:24. > :12:29.they wrote a manifesto, the number one thing was, don't let killers
:12:29. > :12:32.get away with the crimes. When we pointed out that was the same
:12:32. > :12:36.policing priority, it is to show them the police are on the same
:12:36. > :12:41.page, but the trust has to be there, and it is not where it needs to be.
:12:41. > :12:44.The trust is not there yet? I think it is in some communities, but I
:12:44. > :12:48.would agree with the points made there, in terms of our relationship
:12:48. > :12:51.with young people is very important. I think there is an absolute
:12:51. > :12:54.policing job here to target gun supply and dangerous and violent
:12:54. > :12:59.people, that is what young people want. By the same token, I think
:12:59. > :13:03.the work we are doing around gangs now. For me it is much more now
:13:03. > :13:06.about local authorities, health, about the work going on in schools.
:13:06. > :13:11.Understanding much more about the gangs and diverting young people
:13:11. > :13:13.away, and actually giving young people confidence in policing is
:13:13. > :13:19.really important. Everybody talk about the change that was brought
:13:19. > :13:22.about in Moss Side, and the thing was, that Moss Side has been
:13:22. > :13:26.transformed, partly because how many millions of pounds, �6 million
:13:26. > :13:29.was spent on that. Can you move into an area and do that, you can't
:13:29. > :13:33.do it in all the areas. Tell me about that whole model, you target
:13:33. > :13:37.an area, you put a huge amount of police resources in, but you can't
:13:37. > :13:41.do that everywhere? This happened in the 1990s in Manchester, where
:13:41. > :13:45.there was a series of drug raids on various estates, that the police
:13:45. > :13:49.took the view that they would wipe out the people dealing drugs on
:13:49. > :13:53.each individual estate. You would move from one estate to the other,
:13:53. > :13:56.eventually the money would run out, or resources would then be
:13:56. > :14:00.channelled into whatever was the latest fear of the day, it might
:14:00. > :14:03.have been burglary, or ramraiding or something else. So, in a sense,
:14:03. > :14:07.you are always chasing the money with the police. Resources are
:14:07. > :14:11.finite, and there is a limit to what you can do. The follow on from
:14:11. > :14:15.last year's riots, is there a sense of a change of atmosphere following
:14:15. > :14:21.the riots, the police had to change their relationship with the people?
:14:21. > :14:26.They started in Manchester in 2008. They adopted in the areas Ruth was
:14:26. > :14:30.talking about, in south Manchester, a quite hard-edged approach, where
:14:30. > :14:35.they used to stop and search using the powers. In one five-month
:14:35. > :14:39.period they stopped and searched nearly 1,000 people. They were
:14:39. > :14:44.using orders where they could put people in care and custody if they
:14:44. > :14:53.felt they were at risk of their lives. And the Osman orders if they
:14:53. > :14:57.felt people's lives were at risk. It had a great effect on the gang
:14:57. > :15:01.movement, but you can't sustain that ininfinitely. What about the
:15:02. > :15:04.riots? I think the policing going on post-riots, there has been a
:15:04. > :15:08.definite sense that the police are reaching out to the community,
:15:08. > :15:11.there has been a change of tone. I agree earlier on it was harder-
:15:11. > :15:13.edged, there has been a change of tone. Much more about working
:15:13. > :15:17.together with the community, with the police feeling part of the
:15:17. > :15:20.community. What I'm hoping, after these horrible murders, that the
:15:20. > :15:24.police don't go back to the hard edge.
:15:24. > :15:27.There can be nothing, in a sense, good coming out of two dreadful
:15:27. > :15:31.murder, one thing you think it might be a catalyst for a real
:15:31. > :15:35.wake-up call on both sides? On both sides, but hopefully not a
:15:35. > :15:40.retraction back to the more hard- edged policing, what needs to
:15:40. > :15:43.happen is more engagment with the community. That is happening
:15:43. > :15:47.fantastically in Manchester, where police officers are talking to
:15:47. > :15:50.residents, I hope there is more not less of that. Do you see a
:15:50. > :15:56.variation in the way the policing approach has been across the
:15:56. > :16:00.country, and the idea that Ruth is saying, in a way, this should be a
:16:00. > :16:06.catalyst for change in how policing is delivered, perhaps in the city?
:16:06. > :16:09.Well, I would say, actually, I think this watershed in terms of
:16:09. > :16:13.lots of work round enforcement, but clearly working with communities
:16:13. > :16:19.and problem-solving is key. I think that is work that has been going on
:16:19. > :16:22.in pwhan Chester and lots of other cities. And surely events that have
:16:22. > :16:26.happened this week, with the deaths of young people involved around
:16:26. > :16:30.issues of gang violence. There is clearly a moment in time where you
:16:30. > :16:33.have to reflect whether or not things are right. I do hope we see
:16:33. > :16:38.not just in Manchester, but across the country, a moment of reflection
:16:38. > :16:41.about how to go forward. Presumably, it is inescapably that this has
:16:41. > :16:49.been brought, partly because it is two women have been killed, I
:16:49. > :16:53.wonder if it was the same reif it was -- reaction if it was male
:16:53. > :16:59.officers? It wouldn't have made any difference, you have a man with
:16:59. > :17:03.guns and grenades, he was, well, we can't talk about the circumstances
:17:03. > :17:07.or whatever happened, at some visceral level. Do you think, Ruth
:17:07. > :17:12.is saying that actually she feels it will be a catalyst for change,
:17:12. > :17:16.do you think it is a moment we can grab on to? Ruth was talking about
:17:16. > :17:19.how it affect the young people, and the fact that they were WPCs, and
:17:19. > :17:23.for the first time some of the young people that Ruth deals with
:17:24. > :17:28.have seen the police as vulnerable. Perhaps they have seen them in the
:17:28. > :17:31.past as strong authority figures, possibly too strong, now they
:17:32. > :17:34.appreciate they are just as vulnerable as they are. When the
:17:34. > :17:38.funerals happen, we are told that police officers all over the
:17:38. > :17:42.country are offering to come in on days off to let the Manchester
:17:42. > :17:46.police take part in the service, do you feel this is a week of
:17:46. > :17:50.watershed? It feels like that, there is a feeling it is a city in
:17:50. > :17:55.shock. The police are in shock. But also the whole community, across
:17:55. > :17:59.the community, feels this is a very, very shocking, dreadful thing that
:17:59. > :18:02.happened. In some ways we have to build and grow from it. There has
:18:02. > :18:08.to be some kind of positive change. Positive change from this, you
:18:08. > :18:11.accept there is a chance for positive change? I would agree
:18:11. > :18:15.whatever he says, everyone is in shock. Let's not underestimate,
:18:15. > :18:18.there is a lot of change and work going on already. Actually, we are
:18:18. > :18:24.really committed in terms of this problem. It cannot be solved by the
:18:24. > :18:27.police, we have a clear role to do. We have lots of agencies and
:18:27. > :18:31.community are central to a sustainable solution to the issues
:18:31. > :18:34.of gang violence. The Pakistan army has today been
:18:34. > :18:39.battling with demonstrators in Islamabad, where they want to
:18:39. > :18:45.target the US embassy over the American-made anti-Islam video. And
:18:45. > :18:52.adding to the protesters' anger is the publication in a French
:18:52. > :18:56.satirical magazine, of cartoons mocking the Prophet Mohammed, also
:18:56. > :19:02.in France, Salman Rushdie has said in an interview for Le Monde that
:19:02. > :19:07.something has gone wrong in the culture of Islam, saying it has
:19:07. > :19:10.gone in on itself like a self- inflicted wound. We will hear from
:19:10. > :19:14.our guests, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, in a moment, first from our diplomatic
:19:14. > :19:18.editor, Mark Urban. Tell us about the scale of the protests? This is
:19:18. > :19:21.going on for ten days now, if you go back to the 11th September, very
:19:21. > :19:24.significant day for the United States, that is when the first
:19:24. > :19:29.protest started in Cairo, they are often a very influential country in
:19:29. > :19:33.the Arab world, spurred on by a Salafist militant Islamic TV
:19:33. > :19:37.station because of this video. That, on the same afternoon, spread to
:19:37. > :19:42.Libya, where the events took place in Benghazi, that cost the
:19:42. > :19:49.ambassador Christopher Stephen, and three others, their lives. A couple
:19:49. > :19:57.of days later, the United States embassy in Yemen was invaded by an
:19:57. > :20:03.angry mob. They smashed the place up. Big problems there. And then,
:20:03. > :20:07.the follow -- following day, a Friday, protests across the Arab
:20:07. > :20:11.and Islamic world, with particular problems in Sudan and Tunisia,
:20:11. > :20:16.where a total of ten people were killed. In Sudan British and German
:20:16. > :20:21.missions were attacked as well as American sites. On it went, the
:20:21. > :20:25.15th you had the incident at Camp Bastion, an elaborate attack,
:20:25. > :20:30.killed two US Marines, 15 Taliban also lost their lives. The Taliban
:20:30. > :20:32.claimed in the communique, one of the reasons was this video, again,
:20:32. > :20:36.but this elaborate attack of probably put together before they
:20:36. > :20:42.had heard of that. And then, of course, when we thought the whole
:20:42. > :20:47.thing was dying away, in the last few days, this issue of the French
:20:47. > :20:50.magazine, Charlie Hebdo, publishing this, a rather be a secure
:20:50. > :20:54.satirical magazine, has led to France tightening security in 20
:20:54. > :20:57.countries, you see at the centre of the image, Beirut, where Hezbollah
:20:57. > :21:00.has called protests. In Pakistan, still after shocks from the
:21:00. > :21:05.original video affair, with demonstrations going on today in
:21:05. > :21:08.Islamabad, very angry, very violent, the Pakistan Army saying that
:21:08. > :21:11.demonstrations after Friday prayers will be banned tomorrow. The same
:21:11. > :21:15.thing has happened in Tunisia. Friday prayers tomorrow being the
:21:15. > :21:19.big moment. But tell me, how nervous do you think is the west
:21:19. > :21:23.about how to calibrate its response to all this? Having been in
:21:23. > :21:27.Washington last week, making the piece, we will see in a few minutes,
:21:27. > :21:30.I think policy makers are fairly bewildered, many of them, they have
:21:30. > :21:33.tried all sorts of different approaches to securing their
:21:33. > :21:37.interests, to spreading democracy in the Arab world, from the really
:21:37. > :21:40.heavy approach of Iraq, through to the lighter touch of Libya, and
:21:40. > :21:44.staying out all together in many place, still they have these
:21:44. > :21:47.reactions. The truth is, the western policy-making perspective
:21:47. > :21:51.is defeated by a lot of this. The rational approach, killing Osama
:21:51. > :21:56.Bin Laden, for example, did not touch off this type of event. It is
:21:56. > :22:01.the symbolic insults to Islam which have shown themselves so powerful,
:22:01. > :22:06.from the Danish cartoons, to the burning of Korans at Bagram Air
:22:06. > :22:09.Base, that was avoidable, but in so many countries like France and the
:22:09. > :22:13.United States, find themselves defending their constitutional
:22:13. > :22:17.freedom of speech issues, you have this irreducable clash of the two
:22:17. > :22:22.cultures. Thank you very much indeed. Joining me now from Boston
:22:22. > :22:28.is the former Dutch MP, author and political campaigner, she's, in
:22:29. > :22:33.recent years, denounced her Islamic faith, and claims Islam is an
:22:33. > :22:38.ideology inherently flawed and pose as bigger threat than we think. Her
:22:38. > :22:43.own views have led to death threats. First of all, Ayaan Hirsi Ali, how
:22:43. > :22:46.do you think, having heard what Mark Urban was saying, about how
:22:46. > :22:53.the west should respond, to essentially what is a symbolic
:22:53. > :22:56.issue for Islam, and slightly the bewilderment at that, what do you
:22:56. > :23:04.think the west should do? I think the west should stand for its
:23:04. > :23:08.principles, I think that President Obama, Secretary of State Clinton
:23:08. > :23:13.and other western leaders of the western world should explain over
:23:13. > :23:17.and over again to their colleagues in Arab-Muslim countries that what
:23:17. > :23:21.they are demanding is something that they as elected politicians
:23:21. > :23:26.simply cannot give to them. There is constitutionally protected
:23:26. > :23:31.speech, the film that we have seen, cartoons, all that kind of thing is
:23:31. > :23:38.protected in the United States by the first amendment. They must do
:23:38. > :23:43.not have the power to change any of that. The fact that the Secretary
:23:43. > :23:47.of State in the United States says this film is bad and reprehensible,
:23:47. > :23:52.and disgusting, that is an expression of her opinion. It is
:23:52. > :23:58.not a promise to introduce legislation to curb that. But if
:23:58. > :24:02.you listen to the Prime Minister of Turkey, the President of Egypt, the
:24:02. > :24:07.Pakistanies, all of these Muslim countries, what they really are
:24:07. > :24:13.seeking is an amendment of the First Amendment. That just isn't
:24:14. > :24:20.going to happen. Should there not be laws against inciting, as it
:24:20. > :24:26.were, religious hatred, there are such laws in some countries, the UK.
:24:26. > :24:31.Presumably those are laws you think should exist, no? I do not think
:24:31. > :24:34.such laws should exist. If you look at the history of the freedom of
:24:34. > :24:42.speech, the freedom of conscience, the freedom of expression, in
:24:42. > :24:47.Europe and in America, this is a culmination of the victory of the
:24:48. > :24:51.individual, as a human being. It has become one of the most basic
:24:51. > :24:56.human rights, this wasn't achieved overnight. Hundreds of years went
:24:56. > :25:02.before that. When all these freedoms were not available. Do we
:25:02. > :25:08.want to appease people in the -- Muslim and ar rash world who are
:25:08. > :25:13.not there, by indulging them and -- and Arab world who are not there
:25:13. > :25:18.yet, by indulging them, and then saying you guys should catch up
:25:18. > :25:22.with us, and our leaders explaining we won't go back. Do you accept
:25:22. > :25:26.that Muslims have the right to be offended, frirsly, by the film, and
:25:26. > :25:29.-- firstly, by the film, and now the cartoons and cartoon of the
:25:29. > :25:36.past, do you think they have the right to be offended by these
:25:36. > :25:42.things? The freedom of speech, freedom of expression that is
:25:42. > :25:46.constitutionally set in place, that protects the right to offend. It
:25:46. > :25:51.doesn't protect good manners. I do not want to insult anyone, and I
:25:51. > :25:56.hate people insulting one another, and insulting one another's
:25:56. > :26:01.religions, et cetera, but that is what it protected. So there is no
:26:01. > :26:06.point pretending otherwise. In the United States now, and I am
:26:06. > :26:14.following the elections, and what the Republicans say about the
:26:14. > :26:18.Democrats hurts Democratic people deeply, what Democrats say about
:26:18. > :26:24.Republicans hurt them deeply, that is protected. You do accept that
:26:24. > :26:29.the majority of Muslims who are offended by the film and the
:26:29. > :26:32.cartoon, are offended, they are not violent, they are simply offended,
:26:32. > :26:39.presumably they have the right to feel offended if they feel their
:26:39. > :26:42.religion or culture is under attack? Absolutely, the majority is
:26:42. > :26:49.offended, but in their offence, I think what they should do, the
:26:49. > :26:54.majority of Muslims, for them to be credible, is for them to object to
:26:54. > :26:58.real human suffering. Let me give you an example. You just reported
:26:58. > :27:06.on Pakistan. In mid-August, I believe it was the 14th of August,
:27:06. > :27:11.a 14-year-old girl was raped in Pakistan, by five men, that was
:27:11. > :27:15.national news, there was no demonstration of any kind, no
:27:15. > :27:20.outrage of any kind. This happens throughout the Muslim world, all
:27:20. > :27:24.the time. There is no outrage in the Muslim world when human life is
:27:24. > :27:29.taken, when churches are burned, when synagogues are burned, when
:27:29. > :27:35.Muslim, I know, a homicideal few, when they say and do bad things to
:27:35. > :27:40.others, including Muslims, that is Sufi, and Shias, but then there is
:27:40. > :27:44.some video somewhere in the south of California, and people in Egypt
:27:44. > :27:48.know about it, I'm sorry, it's not credible. Thank you very much for
:27:48. > :27:52.joining you, we have to stop you there.
:27:52. > :27:55.Much of the anger we have just been discussing has focused sharply on
:27:55. > :27:59.America and that of its foreign policy. What direction it takes in
:27:59. > :28:03.the years to come may well be something determined in the US
:28:03. > :28:07.presidential election, but both Barack Obama and Mitt Romney are
:28:07. > :28:12.acutely aware that promises of for more rays into foreign lands will
:28:12. > :28:16.not go down well with an already war-weary American electorate. It
:28:16. > :28:21.is not just the diplomatic and military might on the wane, it
:28:21. > :28:26.might be trade over superpowers in the future such as China. For his
:28:26. > :28:30.own assessment of whether America remains top dog and for how long,
:28:30. > :28:34.our own diplomatic editor jouornied there. On Baltimore's seafront,
:28:34. > :28:39.they have been honouring the past and contemplating the present. It
:28:39. > :28:44.is 200 years since the US and Britain began the war of 1812, a
:28:45. > :28:50.muddled and unnecessary little spat about trade rights. More recently,
:28:50. > :28:54.the US-UK relationship has been one of those comforting, unchanging
:28:54. > :28:59.poles, around this country has fixed its foreign policy. But as
:28:59. > :29:06.the country heads for elections, economic wos have made it more
:29:06. > :29:10.inward-look -- woes, have made it more inward-looking, less sure that
:29:10. > :29:13.American supremacy can be taken for granted. We have to be careful, we
:29:13. > :29:18.are close to losing it, in my opinion. I think China is very hot
:29:18. > :29:22.on our heels. What really ticked me off when Obama first became
:29:22. > :29:26.President was he went all around the world apologising for
:29:26. > :29:34.everything we did. If we didn't do what we did there would be
:29:34. > :29:37.countries in a lot worse shape. Foreign policy issues narrowly
:29:37. > :29:42.defined, relations with Russia, even whether America should attack
:29:42. > :29:46.Iran, have not played a big part in this campaign, not yet, any way,
:29:46. > :29:53.but, looming just beneath the surface, there is an obsession with
:29:53. > :29:57.America's status in the world, and whether it has declined under paib.
:29:57. > :30:02.His opponents -- President Obama. His opponents insist it has. Last
:30:02. > :30:07.week this country commemorated the victims of 9/11, President Obama
:30:07. > :30:11.laid a wreath at the Pentagon, and reminded people how he had dealt
:30:11. > :30:17.with Al-Qaeda. Al-Qaeda's leadership has been devastated.
:30:17. > :30:21.Osama Bin Laden will never threaten us again. The US may still be the
:30:21. > :30:26.world's top military power, but, in the aftermath of that attack, it
:30:26. > :30:32.waged two hugely costly war. America is suffering from
:30:32. > :30:39.intervention fatigue. American concern about terrorism is
:30:39. > :30:43.way, way down, it figures in the low single digits among people
:30:43. > :30:53.polled as to what their principal concerns are in the world. In
:30:53. > :30:55.
:30:55. > :30:59.addition to that, there is both a weariness and wariness about
:30:59. > :31:02.American intervention in the world, which is pegged to Iraq and
:31:02. > :31:06.Afghanistan, and the possibility of having to take action in Syria.
:31:06. > :31:10.Sensing this national mood, the President has, in his campaigning,
:31:10. > :31:13.explicitly turned his attention to the battle at home, for jobs.
:31:13. > :31:20.evening, over the last decade we have spent a trillion dollars on
:31:20. > :31:25.war, at a time of rising debt and hard economic times. Now we must
:31:25. > :31:31.invest in America's greatest resource, our people, America, it
:31:31. > :31:36.is time to focus on nation building here at home.
:31:36. > :31:40.The Romney campaign, and its more agrossive supporters, accuses
:31:40. > :31:47.President Obama of abandoning allies, shrinking from challenges,
:31:47. > :31:57.and leaving the world stage to others. As a Navy SEAL I fought, so
:31:57. > :31:59.
:31:59. > :32:05.I would never have to see my President bow to anyone.
:32:05. > :32:09.Mitt Romney accuses President Obama of presiding over a avoidable
:32:09. > :32:13.decline. In American century we lead the free world, and the free
:32:13. > :32:19.world leads the entire world. If we don't have the strength or vision
:32:19. > :32:26.to lead, then other powers will take our place. Pulling history in
:32:26. > :32:32.a very different direction. The war of 1812 pitted Britain as the pre-
:32:32. > :32:41.eminent naval and trading power of its day against an upstart newcomer,
:32:41. > :32:47.America. So two centuries on, has the tide of history caught up with
:32:47. > :32:52.the US? Is this country now in terminal decline?
:32:52. > :32:57.This man insists it is not, and has been quoted by both presidential
:32:57. > :32:59.candidates for saying so. Americans are conflicted, they have
:32:59. > :33:03.contradictory impulses in their foreign policy, and always have.
:33:03. > :33:06.They have an impulse to try to shape the world in ways that they
:33:06. > :33:12.think are conducive to their interests, and their principles.
:33:12. > :33:16.They also have an impulse that sounds like too much of a burden,
:33:16. > :33:21.it's too expensive, we don't really want that much role in the world.
:33:21. > :33:26.Often these things coincide almost exactly at the same time. If it'ser
:33:26. > :33:33.in row sis you are looking for in a super-- neurosis you are looking
:33:33. > :33:40.for in a superpower, America is your country. The recession has
:33:40. > :33:42.dented the confidence of many Americans. It is Mansfield Ohio,
:33:42. > :33:48.unemployment is 11% and the community is struggling to cope
:33:48. > :33:52.with the closure of a local car plant. Until town like Mansfield,
:33:52. > :33:59.located in a key marginal state recover, the economy will dominate
:33:59. > :34:02.their concerns, and candidates for office will act accordingly.
:34:02. > :34:07.The Republican candidate, Mitt Romney, came here last week, his
:34:07. > :34:11.pitch is that, as a successful businessman, he knows how to turn
:34:11. > :34:15.things round. America does not have to have the long face we have right
:34:15. > :34:19.now under this President, we can get America going again, growing
:34:19. > :34:24.again, I know how to do it. There is an area where the core issues of
:34:24. > :34:27.this campaign, jobs and the economy, do touch on foreign policy. That's
:34:27. > :34:33.trade practices and relations between the great powers. In
:34:33. > :34:37.particular, China. PR Machine Works played host to Mr
:34:37. > :34:41.Romney, it has come through the recession without redundancies, but
:34:41. > :34:45.the boss here, a local Republican candidate, sees a direct connection
:34:45. > :34:49.between the local economy and wider world. I think we have to stand up
:34:49. > :34:51.to China, and tell them we want them to be part of the
:34:51. > :34:56.international community, and part of the international trade, but
:34:56. > :35:00.they have to play by the rules. That simple. You are very
:35:00. > :35:05.interdependant with the Chinese, they boy a lot of US Government
:35:05. > :35:08.debt, they have big investments here, can you afford a trade war,
:35:08. > :35:13.or some kind of political confrontation with China? No, I
:35:13. > :35:17.don't think we can afford a trade war, but we can sit down at the
:35:17. > :35:23.table and work towards getting that level playing field. It is in
:35:23. > :35:30.everybody's interest, including the Chinese, to get that done.
:35:30. > :35:35.Thank you Ohio, we will get it done. Tough talk on China and Russia may
:35:35. > :35:39.please some, but in the tough corridors of power Mr Romney has
:35:39. > :35:44.drawn fire. His convention speech didn't mention soldiers in
:35:44. > :35:49.Afghanistan, his one foreign trip drew flack, as did his recent
:35:49. > :35:53.interference on violence in Egypt. So foreign policy is an area where
:35:53. > :35:57.he has scored poorly against the President, and either man is
:35:57. > :36:02.conditioned by the realities of power. One thing that won't change
:36:02. > :36:07.with whoever is in the White House is the interests, we have to
:36:07. > :36:11.protect those interests, having a bad relationship right out of the
:36:11. > :36:15.gate with China, is not a hopeful way to protect our interests, we
:36:15. > :36:20.want a peaceful China on the world stage. It is good for all of us, it
:36:20. > :36:23.raises the level of all boats. I think that the first, and most
:36:23. > :36:28.important issue that any President will face after the redevelopment
:36:28. > :36:32.and the continued reconstitution of our own economy, will be China.
:36:32. > :36:36.Followed by the question of Iran and her nuclear capabilities, and
:36:36. > :36:42.then into probably the management of the called Arab Spring.
:36:42. > :36:46.And whoever wins, their latitude for manoeuvre in trying to restore
:36:46. > :36:49.the economy, and therefore, national self-confidence, may well
:36:49. > :36:54.be limited, by continuing partisan deadlock between the White House
:36:54. > :37:04.and Congress. Our system of governance still has lots of
:37:04. > :37:05.
:37:05. > :37:08.virtues. It is not totally broken, but it is badly impaired by the
:37:08. > :37:13.extreme partisanship, and the crippling polarisation that'
:37:13. > :37:16.inflicts our politics right now. The essence of politics -- that
:37:16. > :37:20.inflicts our politics right now. It comes to two things, wisdom and
:37:20. > :37:25.foresight on the one hand, and the ability to compromise on the other.
:37:25. > :37:30.There is not a lot of either of those, and there is a dick dirth of
:37:30. > :37:34.compromise in this town. -- a particular dirth of compromise in
:37:34. > :37:39.this town. While the foreign experts in Washington might admit
:37:39. > :37:44.the world has become a more polar place to the average America, it is
:37:44. > :37:49.the economic crisis that has blunted their appetite for global
:37:49. > :37:52.activism, if the economy improves then things could simply be back to
:37:52. > :37:57.normal. If it stagnates and falls back further, this country's
:37:57. > :38:02.appetite for acting on the world stage, may be d diminished for many
:38:02. > :38:06.years to come. -- may be diminished for many years to come. As for the
:38:06. > :38:10.grander sweep of history, there are plenty who assume this country has
:38:10. > :38:14.passed the peak of its power. But pride in America remains so strong,
:38:14. > :38:20.that any candidate who told the public that, would soon come under
:38:21. > :38:25.a hail of political fire. Instead, America cleefs to the
:38:25. > :38:31.promise, that economic -- cleaves to the promise that an economic
:38:32. > :38:35.recovery can restore an order that Americans have known all their
:38:35. > :38:40.lives. Jeremy's duet with Vince Cable will be along in just a
:38:40. > :38:44.moment. First, the Oscar-winning French actress, Juliette Binoche,
:38:44. > :38:50.who starred in English Patient and Chocolat, returned to the London
:38:50. > :38:54.stage tonight after a 12-year absence, playing Miss Julie in the
:38:54. > :38:57.Barbican. Actress, dancer, singer and painter, who resisted the call
:38:57. > :39:01.of Hollywood and stays in her native country, values her privacy
:39:01. > :39:07.greatly. I spoke to her earlier at the Barbican, about the
:39:07. > :39:13.difficulties of playing an aristocratic young woman, who beds
:39:13. > :39:19.her father's valet on a mid- summer's night. This is a really
:39:19. > :39:24.tough role to play, she's not a likeable character, she's
:39:24. > :39:28.coquettish and needy? I'm not playing her like that. I don't
:39:28. > :39:32.think she's coquettish, it is an idea. She's so doomed, she's doomed
:39:32. > :39:37.from the start, you know she's going to be doomed? It depends how
:39:37. > :39:42.you want to look at Miss Julie, how you want to create her. Of course
:39:42. > :39:47.you can make her coquettish, but why do you need to make the
:39:47. > :39:51.character like. That it is an idea, but I think, deep down, she wants
:39:51. > :39:58.to be, she's lost in not knowing what is a woman, what is a man. She
:39:58. > :40:08.was brought up in both ways. So I think her need of being close is
:40:08. > :40:37.
:40:37. > :40:40.As the two main characters they are going back and forth, fighting so
:40:40. > :40:45.hard, trying to understand who they are, and who the other is, and what
:40:45. > :40:51.is the other person's need and desire. That's why it is
:40:51. > :40:55.fascinating, and it is over age this idea of Jean and Miss Julie,
:40:55. > :41:03.you could play any age, it is about passion, love, searching who you
:41:03. > :41:08.are. She's Miss Julie, it is a kind of hamlet character, she has a
:41:08. > :41:15.layer -- Hamlet character, she has a layer of trying to discover who
:41:15. > :41:21.that is. You like stride stride? Because he's generous in his poetic,
:41:21. > :41:25.he's searching for love and the impossible idea of loving. When you
:41:25. > :41:35.expect so much, you are disappointed so much. When you look
:41:35. > :41:35.
:41:35. > :41:40.at the parts that perhaps you haven't played, for example, in the
:41:40. > :41:49.Schiller, are there parts like that? Whether you play Miss Julie,
:41:49. > :41:54.and again, from my taste, I prefer Strindberg, he put his heart in
:41:54. > :42:01.operation, it is all the really opening up, and you really see
:42:02. > :42:06.what's in. You think Chekhov? more head-orientated, his gorgeous
:42:07. > :42:12.instruction, gorgeous at going into certain places, what is missing for
:42:12. > :42:18.me, comparing to Strindberg, he goes into it, and you doesn't know
:42:18. > :42:23.if he would survive it. He wrote the play in would weeks, only, in a
:42:23. > :42:27.big crisis. When you read about his relationship with his wife, he was
:42:27. > :42:31.divorcing as well. So they would kill each other during the day, and
:42:31. > :42:38.at the end of the day they would make love like crazy together on
:42:38. > :42:41.the floor, and making up, changing the whole deal. In the play it is
:42:42. > :42:46.what what happens, they are always going back and forth, it is never
:42:46. > :42:56.the end. Until there is a moment, she is totally alone. She's totally
:42:56. > :43:07.
:43:07. > :43:14.I think in acting it is about forgetting yourself. And the
:43:14. > :43:18.betterment of, you let go because you want to go with the feeling,
:43:18. > :43:24.with the sensation, first of all, and the thoughts as well, but the
:43:24. > :43:30.head is not leading, it is the body is leading, and in the body you
:43:30. > :43:33.have every layer. You have the guts, you have the emotions, you have the
:43:33. > :43:37.words and the talking and the spirit. If you don't have
:43:37. > :43:44.everything in one body, the body is useless. The body contains
:43:44. > :43:49.everything. I wonder what you made of France's astonishment at these
:43:49. > :43:52.pictures of the future Queen of England topless in France being in
:43:52. > :43:56.French magazines? I wasn't aware of it, I never look at tabloids,
:43:56. > :44:02.somebody told me quickly, I'm not even aware of it. It is better not
:44:02. > :44:07.to be aware of it. Not knowing about it. Being ignorant about it,
:44:07. > :44:10.when there is this magazine, you turn your eyes away. Are you
:44:10. > :44:16.surprised, because France has privacy laws, don't you think that
:44:16. > :44:21.is an invasion of privacy? The law in France is very specific. Even in
:44:21. > :44:25.the street they cannot take pictures, you can really go after
:44:25. > :44:31.the photoers and the magazines that are publishing. You wonder why they
:44:31. > :44:36.took the risk? Because then you can talk about it. Otherwise they
:44:36. > :44:41.wouldn't care, if nobody was buying, if nobody was looking, they
:44:41. > :44:45.wouldn't take the pictures. I think you have said, if I'm right, if it
:44:45. > :44:50.is difficult to embrace success as a French woman, but is it actually
:44:50. > :44:57.that France finds it difficult to celebrate success? That is quite
:44:57. > :45:01.true. In a way, but at the same time, recent low I have observed
:45:01. > :45:06.that there were successful actors and directors and they have been
:45:06. > :45:11.quite embraced. Maybe when you have your success outside of France, and
:45:11. > :45:16.it might be a bit more difficult. Who knows? I don't know. Juliette
:45:16. > :45:20.Binoche thank you very much indeed. That's just about it from us for
:45:20. > :45:25.tonight. Before we go, political satirists must have thought all
:45:25. > :45:29.their Christmass had come at once, when Nick Clegg's student tuition
:45:30. > :45:35.fees a polling appeared on-line. # I'm sorry
:45:35. > :45:41.# I'm so sorry # There is no easy to way
:45:41. > :45:47.# I'm sorry Mr Clegg has expressed his delight
:45:47. > :45:51.at the spoof and encouraged producers from the political
:45:51. > :45:58.website The Spoke, to release it as a charity single.
:45:58. > :46:03.We didn't want others to feel left out, we asked the artist to do the
:46:03. > :46:07.same for Jeremy's interview from last night.
:46:08. > :46:14.# I was sceptical about the pledge, we agreed collectively to do it, I
:46:14. > :46:17.take my share of responsibility. # Do you personally believe it was
:46:17. > :46:22.true? # It was atypical
:46:22. > :46:25.# I signed the pledge on the basis # That had we been in Government on
:46:25. > :46:27.our own # On our own
:46:27. > :46:32.# We would have put through that policy
:46:32. > :46:34.# Put through that policy # You knew perfectly it was